This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Killer Cyborg]

TemporalMage,

Did you ever answer the question about the carboard box?
I'll ask again.

Is it accurate to say that, in your interpretation of the rules, that you could teleport into a large cardboard box, but that you couldn't teleport into a large cardboard box on wheels?

[Vrykolas2k]

TemporalMage,

Did you ever answer the question about the carboard box?
I'll ask again.

Is it accurate to say that, in your interpretation of the rules, that you could teleport into a large cardboard box, but that you couldn't teleport into a large cardboard box on wheels?

I guess that would be technically a vehicle, and it would be environmental if you strategically applied duct tape.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I just can't belive this thread is still alive.

[Temporalmage]

Make up your mind.
Magic can penetrate or it can't
By the version of the rule you have been quoting for over a month you would teleport it and everything on the inside would fall to the ground.

How would everything possibly fall to the ground?? Even if you teleported a robot to another destination your not effecting the occupants in any way by doing so. They will still be inside the robot, still seatbelted in and with thier coffee cup still in thier hand. Yet in your example above somhow the magic of teleport is sopposed to eject the occupants?? That couldn't happen as that would be in direct opposition to the very rule I've been quoting!!

Face it you argument is breaking down more and more each day. It seems the only thing propping it up is your inability to accept the truth.

With you stating real gems like the one above I can only say one thing...
Pot, kettle, black!

[Temporalmage]

TemporalMage,

Did you ever answer the question about the carboard box?
I'll ask again.

Is it accurate to say that, in your interpretation of the rules, that you could teleport into a large cardboard box, but that you couldn't teleport into a large cardboard box on wheels?

Sorry, I found the original question about this to be redundant. But if you insist on knowing what I think of this hairbrained idea, here ya go.

No. That above statement would be totally inaccurate. A cardboard box with wheels "could" be construde as a vehicle in the broadest sense of the word, and the greatest stretch of imagination. I'd even stretch using Vrykolas2k's idea of applying duct tape to insure it's "environmental" if you like. But the wording is "giant vehicle". And as the word giant is used it had best be a cardboard box of truly immense size indeed. So large infact that the cardboard would have to be so thick to support it's own wieght that it would clasify as MDC. Then and only then would a mage not be able to teleport into it!

[Killer Cyborg]

TemporalMage,

Did you ever answer the question about the carboard box?
I'll ask again.

Is it accurate to say that, in your interpretation of the rules, that you could teleport into a large cardboard box, but that you couldn't teleport into a large cardboard box on wheels?

Sorry, I found the original question about this to be redundant. But if you insist on knowing what I think of this hairbrained idea, here ya go.

No. That above statement would be totally inaccurate. A cardboard box with wheels "could" be construde as a vehicle in the broadest sense of the word, and the greatest stretch of imagination. I'd even stretch using Vrykolas2k's idea of applying duct tape to insure it's "environmental" if you like. But the wording is "giant vehicle". And as the word giant is used it had best be a cardboard box of truly immense size indeed. So large infact that the cardboard would have to be so thick to support it's own wieght that it would clasify as MDC. Then and only then would a mage not be able to teleport into it!

Actually, you're wrong.
The question being answered on p. 21 of the BoM is:
"What about power armor or vehicles/giant robots?"

The answer is:
"Magic cannot penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."

Furthermore, on p. 19 it says:
"Trying to cast from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible..."

So you can't teleport into any vehicle regardless of size.
(Although you could apparantly teleportin into a tiny robot...)

[Dr. Doom III]

How would everything possibly fall to the ground?? Even if you teleported a robot to another destination your not effecting the occupants in any way by doing so. They will still be inside the robot, still seatbelted in and with thier coffee cup still in thier hand. Yet in your example above somhow the magic of teleport is sopposed to eject the occupants?? That couldn't happen as that would be in direct opposition to the very rule I've been quoting!!

According to you the magic cannot penetrate the vehicle to teleport the innards whatever they may be to the new location.
How could the people inside be teleported along with the bot yet be unaffected by the magic?
You can't have it both ways.

[Temporalmage]

Actually, you're wrong....

I can't be wrong. You asked me for MY interpretation of the rules...not yours. So by default I gave you my opinion of the rules as it would apply to a cardboard box. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, you're wrong....

I can't be wrong. You asked me for MY interpretation of the rules...not yours. So by default I gave you my opinion of the rules as it would apply to a cardboard box. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

I did ask for your interpretation of the rules, but I meant the rules as they are in the book, not the rules as you wish them to be.
It's just "vehicle", not "Giant Vehicle".
Accept it and answer the question again.

[Temporalmage]

According to you the magic cannot penetrate the vehicle to teleport the innards whatever they may be to the new location.

Your putting words in my mouth now? I've never said anything of the sort and you know it. If I have then quote me.

How could the people inside be teleported along with the bot yet be unaffected by the magic?
You can't have it both ways.

In what way are the peaple inside the bot being teleported "affected"? They ain't. Yet your way the peaple would be magically ripped from the bot as it went by-by. Which way seems more in following the rules of magic?
I questioned your logic. I've wondered at your lack of common sense (at least at times in my opinion). I've marvled at your total inability to admit defeat due to having no book material to back your postion up. But until now I'd have never thought your cheese had slid so far off your cracker. And you took your follower Tyciol with you too. How sad. Any rule, law, religion, belief or other unbending principle can be nitpicked apart if enough effort is put into it. But just because you criticize a rule, law, reliegion, belief or whatever does not make it go away. I'd have thought a lawyer would know that.

[Temporalmage]

Actually, you're wrong....

I can't be wrong. You asked me for MY interpretation of the rules...not yours. So by default I gave you my opinion of the rules as it would apply to a cardboard box. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

I did ask for your interpretation of the rules, but I meant the rules as they are in the book, not the rules as you wish them to be.
It's just "vehicle", not "Giant Vehicle".
Accept it and answer the question again.

If you insist. Please allow me to investigate your question so that I can give you an absolute rule's answer. Can you give me the page number and book that has cardboard vehicles please? Then I can fully examine all the information for you and make sure what I write is purely by-the-book.

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, you're wrong....

I can't be wrong. You asked me for MY interpretation of the rules...not yours. So by default I gave you my opinion of the rules as it would apply to a cardboard box. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

I did ask for your interpretation of the rules, but I meant the rules as they are in the book, not the rules as you wish them to be.
It's just "vehicle", not "Giant Vehicle".
Accept it and answer the question again.

If you insist. Please allow me to investigate your question so that I can give you an absolute rule's answer. Can you give me the page number and book that has cardboard vehicles please? Then I can fully examine all the information for you and make sure what I write is purely by-the-book.

What's the matter, TM?
Feeling boxed in...?

[Temporalmage]

What's the matter, TM?
Feeling boxed in...?

Nice pun. But I found the perfect way out. read my above post again.

[Dr. Doom III]

Your putting words in my mouth now? I've never said anything of the sort and you know it. If I have then quote me.

"No magic can penetrate..." I see you repeat it often enough.
The people inside can't be teleported along with he bot unless the magic penetrates.

In what way are the peaple inside the bot being teleported "affected"? They ain't. Yet your way the peaple would be magically ripped from the bot as it went by-by. Which way seems more in following the rules of magic?
I questioned your logic. I've wondered at your lack of common sense (at least at times in my opinion). I've marvled at your total inability to admit defeat due to having no book material to back your postion up. But until now I'd have never thought your cheese had slid so far off your cracker. And you took your follower Tyciol with you too. How sad. Any rule, law, religion, belief or other unbending principle can be nitpicked apart if enough effort is put into it. But just because you criticize a rule, law, reliegion, belief or whatever does not make it go away. I'd have thought a lawyer would know that.

No the bot would be magically ripped from the people inside. Who unaffected by the spell since no magic can penetrate stay where they were. According to your flawed interpretation.
My logic is fine. This is yours. I guess that's why it makes no sense.

[Dr. Doom III]

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

That's not part of the rule. Once again you are adding stuff that isn't there.

[Killer Cyborg]

According to you the magic cannot penetrate the vehicle to teleport the innards whatever they may be to the new location.

Your putting words in my mouth now? I've never said anything of the sort and you know it. If I have then quote me.

How could the people inside be teleported along with the bot yet be unaffected by the magic?
You can't have it both ways.

In what way are the peaple inside the bot being teleported "affected"?

Well, if the teleport spell teleports them along with the vehicle, then they are being affected.

They ain't. Yet your way the peaple would be magically ripped from the bot as it went by-by. Which way seems more in following the rules of magic?

Since magic cannot penetrate vehicles, which is the entire basis for your argument, then the magic cannot teleport the people inside the bot; just the bot itself.
If you think that the magic would naturally affect the people inside the bot, just because they are inside it, then that would mean that ANY magic that affects the bot would affect the pilots. Which wouldn't make any sense.

I questioned your logic. I've wondered at your lack of common sense (at least at times in my opinion). I've marvled at your total inability to admit defeat due to having no book material to back your postion up. But until now I'd have never thought your cheese had slid so far off your cracker. And you took your follower Tyciol with you too. How sad. Any rule, law, religion, belief or other unbending principle can be nitpicked apart if enough effort is put into it. But just because you criticize a rule, law, reliegion, belief or whatever does not make it go away. I'd have thought a lawyer would know that.

Dude, you can't even answer a simple question about a box...
Talk about refusing to admit defeat!

[Temporalmage]

"No magic can penetrate..." I see you repeat it often enough.
The people inside can't be teleported along with he bot unless the magic penetrates.

So let me get this straight....

Magic can't affect anything besides the surface of the robot. If this is true, (which we know is true as per the rules), then how is the inside of the robot, such as the pilot, going to suddenly find himself OUTSIDE the robot?? The only answer would have to be because of magic. BUT the rule specifically states that the occupants can't be affected by magic.

I geuss I'm just not following your weak line of reasoning here Doom. You should be spending more time finding passages in the books that say you can teleport into robots. OH wait!! There are none!! Nevermind.

[Temporalmage]

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

That's not part of the rule. Once again you are adding stuff that isn't there.

Yes it is. It's covered on page 18 of the BOM, and on the first question on page 21 of the BOM that is a direct precurser to the question we've been discusing.

[Temporalmage]

Well, if the teleport spell teleports them along with the vehicle, then they are being affected.

In what way is magic affecting the person specifically?

Dude, you can't even answer a simple question about a box...
Talk about refusing to admit defeat!

I have answered the question. More importantly I've answered it by following the rules of the game as presented in the BOM. And I only admit somthing when there is somthing to admit.

[Killer Cyborg]

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

Okay, you answered it!

So, next question:
Can a mage teleport into a plastic box?
I'll assume that your answer is no, because plastic isn't a natural material, but just in case you say "yes"...

What about a plastic box on wheels?

[Dr. Doom III]

So let me get this straight....

Magic can't affect anything besides the surface of the robot. If this is true, (which we know is true as per the rules), then how is the inside of the robot, such as the pilot, going to suddenly find himself OUTSIDE the robot?? The only answer would have to be because of magic. BUT the rule specifically states that the occupants can't be affected by magic.

I geuss I'm just not following your weak line of reasoning here Doom. You should be spending more time finding passages in the books that say you can teleport into robots. OH wait!! There are none!! Nevermind.

Must be this helmet because I just now realized you must just be arguing for the sake of arguing because I can't believe you would actually believe what you are saying.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, if the teleport spell teleports them along with the vehicle, then they are being affected.

In what way is magic affecting the person specifically?

They've been teleported.
If a person is sitting in a vehicle in one spot, then suddenly they are sitting in that same vehicle a mile away, then they've been affected by the magic of the teleport spell.

If a person is sitting in a vehicle, then suddenly they are sitting in the air where the vehicle used to be, then they have been affected... but not by the magic. They've been affected by the sudden lack of a vehicle.
Just the same as if the mage use magic spells to disintigrate the vehicle; the magic hasn't affecte the pilot directly, only the vehicle. Yet they are still sitting there without a vehicle.

But let's go your way for a minute...
Say the Teleportation spell CAN grab onto the people inside a vehicle and take them with the caster when he teleports.
Great!
Now the mage can just kidnap the people from inside the vehicle and leave the vehicle sitting unoccupied where it was!
If the mage teleports to a place where his buddies have an ambush set up, then this is an easy way to Bot-Jack vehicles!

[Temporalmage]

All of you that are attempting to reverse my words can just give up. I've often repeated myself by quoting the rules that magic can't penetrate. But I've never said, or even hinted, that magic couldn't cause other problems for occupants of robots or vehicles.
If a mage was able to levitate a robot a mile into the air and then drop it, the pilot is in deep doo doo unless his robot can fly. Did the magic suddenly cause the damage to the pilot? No. Gravity did.
If that same mage cast TK on that same robot, lifted it off the ground and shook the heck out of it will the pilot vomit all over his dashboard? Probably! Did the magic make him sick? Not directly. The magic was cast on the robot, the pilot was just around for the ride. And as the pilot wasn't the target of the spell it's perfectly legal, as per the rules.
In Doom's example of wit he brought up teleporting a robot. If that robot happened to be teleported into a volcano would the magical spell be causing the robot to melt and the pilot to die? No. Cause the magic was only cast on the robot itself. While magic can't penetrate the skin of vehicles, at no time did I ever say that the pilot was immune to effects of magic. The list can go on and on with several spells such as tornado and earthquake but a couple that would effect the pilot yet not have the pilot as a target for the spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

All of you that are attempting to reverse my words can just give up. I've often repeated myself by quoting the rules that magic can't penetrate. But I've never said, or even hinted, that magic couldn't cause other problems for occupants of robots or vehicles.
If a mage was able to levitate a robot a mile into the air and then drop it, the pilot is in deep doo doo unless his robot can fly. Did the magic suddenly cause the damage to the pilot? No. Gravity did.
If that same mage cast TK on that same robot, lifted it off the ground and shook the heck out of it will the pilot vomit all over his dashboard? Probably! Did the magic make him sick? Not directly. The magic was cast on the robot, the pilot was just around for the ride. And as the pilot wasn't the target of the spell it's perfectly legal, as per the rules.
In Doom's example of wit he brought up teleporting a robot. If that robot happened to be teleported into a volcano would the magical spell be causing the robot to melt and the pilot to die? No. Cause the magic was only cast on the robot itself. While magic can't penetrate the skin of vehicles, at no time did I ever say that the pilot was immune to effects of magic. The list can go on and on with several spells such as tornado and earthquake but a couple that would effect the pilot yet not have the pilot as a target for the spell.

I'll spell it out for you slowly.
Your argument has been:

1. Magic cannot penetrate vehicles. This is stated on p. 21 of the book of magic.

2. Therefore, the teleport spell cannot penetrate vehicles.

(With me so far?)

Here's where things get fun.
If you are right, then...

3. A mage standing near a vehicle, who casts the Teleport: Superior spell, can transport himself and thousands of pounds of other material.
He can try to teleport the robot, assuming that it is under his weight allowance.

4. If he teleports the robot, then the crew does NOT go along with it. Why not? Because, as the book says, "any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside"
Using magic to teleport people IS affecting those people.
Otherwise creatures or characters who "cannot be affected by magic" could still be teleported.

We're not twisting your words around, we're just showing you where that particular rule, and your interpretation of it, takes you.

If you don't agree with 4, then let's say that the mage could teleport both the vehicle and the people inside of the vehicle....

5. If the teleportation spell CAN teleport the people inside the vehicle when a mage outside the vehicle casts the spell, then the mage could use it to simply kidnap the people from inside the vehicle without taking the vehicle along.

You follow?

[Temporalmage]

I "followed" quite well the first time Doom presented this. What I don't "follow" is that you Killer, Doom, and Tyciol seem bent on twisting the apparent meaning of the rules to attempt to trip me up instead of admiting that according to the rule you can't teleport into a robot. Which is the point of this topic, remember? By the way, for your little example to work at all you would have to apply the rule I've quoted. How ironic don't you think?
Also I don't have an "interpretation" of the rule. I only accept the rule as it's written. (That don't mean I apply the rule in my game either!!) I just can't stand to see anyone state as fact that a spell such as teleport is an exception to this rule when there is no evidence to back such a statment up.

[PigLickJF]

Temporal, I have to say, from a somewhat "outside" perspective here (remember, I maintain that both camps are wrong, and there is no "official" ruling on this) your logic in these last few posts has been pretty wonky.

The occupants of a robot/vehicle aren't attached to it in any way, physically or supernaturally. Your examples of a telekinesis or levitation spell don't work here, because in those examples the bot moves. Since the occupants are contained (and probably strapped into) the bot, they would of course be affected by the movement, because as the bot moves, it's walls/seats/belts/whatever push them. In the case of teleportation, however, the thing simply disappears instantly, leaving them in the same spot and position as they had been, but sans robot (probably resulting in a surprised look and a fall). The only way for them to go along with the bot is if they too are affected by the spell, which you say cannot happen, since the magic could not have penetrated the bot.

Unless you're trying to argue that being inside a bot/vehicle somehow makes the occupants somehow "part" of the bot? If so, I think that opens a whole new ugly can of worms.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

I "followed" quite well the first time Doom presented this. What I don't "follow" is that you Killer, Doom, and Tyciol seem bent on twisting the apparent meaning of the rules to attempt to trip me up instead of admiting that according to the rule you can't teleport into a robot. Which is the point of this topic, remember?

Uh, if you follow what we're saying, then make a logical response to it instead of getting all weird.
You really don't seem to understand and it's starting to make me wonder if you're really tired or just playing dumb.
Explain how we are "twisting the apparent meaning of the rules to attempt to trip you up", for starters.

By the way, for your little example to work at all you would have to apply the rule I've quoted. How ironic don't you think?

That was the exact point, TM.
That's not irony, it's just a sign that you're catching on.
What I'm doing, as I have said, is showing you where exactly your strict adherence to the letter of the law over the spirit of the law is taking you. And that's to a place where mages can car-jack vehicles and robots, leaving the pilots dangling in the air for a second with a Wile E. Coyote expression on their face.
Why you have denied this is confusing to all of us and you're doing nothing to clarify, just accusing us of twisting things around and of us refusing to give up.

[Dr. Doom III]

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

I really shouldn't bother with this since I know you don't believe what you're saying but I can't help myself.

The rule on metal armor is not relevant to this and here is why.
Metal armor does not stop magic. Wearing metal armor just makes it harder to cast by imposing penalties. Those penalties only apply when the mage is in the metal armor. If only the target is in the armor then they don't even get the penalties.
If you want to look for another rule to link to "magic cannot target things inside bots and vehicles" the one you want is Line of Vision, which of course doesn't apply to teleporting.

Please try again and this time just use the relevant rules.

[ApocalypseZero]

First off, shouldn't this be in the Q & A?

Second, why does it really matter? Do/Play how you/your group wishes.

Third, If you're teleporting a bot, you're getting the whole thing; Pilot, Gunners, Communications, etc. Add the weight of them into the bot weight (because essentially, they are part of the vehicle) and go from there.

How can this bring about 41 pages of fighting? Sometimes you do have to scrap away the game mechanics and plug in a bit of logic/realism. If teleporting didn't effect the Pilot, I'd have a character sitting on a battalion of GB suits.

Here's a golden little rule that helps in these 'special' situations: Unless specifically written (no interpretating. clearly written.), if something sounds to good, it isn't being used right.

Now, as for the topic of Teleporting into a Sealed Vehicle, sure. Just enjoy that lovely % roll where you have the biggest chance of ending up inside the object (you know, the one that says you DIE instantly).

[Zer0 Kay]

Interesting idea. Lets examine it a moment shall we? If a teleport spell was cast on a robot, (Which the Glitter Boy is not by the way) and the robot was within the weight limit of the mage, would the pilot be magically left behind? When the magic in question was aimed at the robot itself? No. This is once again covered by the section I've quoted time and again. The magic would only effect the robot itself, and not the occupants. So the robot would be teleported away while the occupants would still be safe inside.

Funny is that why it is in the Robot section of the Main book and even describes itself as a single person ROBOT? Where did they change that it was a PA and not a GR?

[Zer0 Kay]

I just can't belive this thread is still alive.

What you expect Doom and TM to agree before the Apocolypse?

[Zer0 Kay]

I can. You see the trick is, after a thread goes on long enough, you can keep it going since about half the posts are from people talking about how it's still going.

Is not its because of two people saying ah'huh and na'uh back and forth. I'm still waiting for one to pull a Bugs Bunny.

[Zer0 Kay]

Make up your mind.
Magic can penetrate or it can't
By the version of the rule you have been quoting for over a month you would teleport it and everything on the inside would fall to the ground.

How would everything possibly fall to the ground?? Even if you teleported a robot to another destination your not effecting the occupants in any way by doing so. They will still be inside the robot, still seatbelted in and with thier coffee cup still in thier hand. Yet in your example above somhow the magic of teleport is sopposed to eject the occupants?? That couldn't happen as that would be in direct opposition to the very rule I've been quoting!!

Face it you argument is breaking down more and more each day. It seems the only thing propping it up is your inability to accept the truth.

With you stating real gems like the one above I can only say one thing...
Pot, kettle, black!

Blah blah blah

If the robot is teleported into a solid object it would kill everyone inside that would effect them. If their teleported into space the sudden loss of gravity would effect their coffee, which comes floating out in a hot mass splattering them therby effecting the crew also. So then if the rule states that a spell can not be used on a vehicle that will effect the occupants or objects within it how can you teleport a vehicle or your buddy in the GB (which is a robot)?

[Zer0 Kay]

Actually, you're wrong....

I can't be wrong. You asked me for MY interpretation of the rules...not yours. So by default I gave you my opinion of the rules as it would apply to a cardboard box. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.

I did ask for your interpretation of the rules, but I meant the rules as they are in the book, not the rules as you wish them to be.
It's just "vehicle", not "Giant Vehicle".
Accept it and answer the question again.

If you insist. Please allow me to investigate your question so that I can give you an absolute rule's answer. Can you give me the page number and book that has cardboard vehicles please? Then I can fully examine all the information for you and make sure what I write is purely by-the-book.

EDIT: I've found the info that pertains to your question myself. The answer your looking for is YES. A mage can teleport into a vehicle made of cardboard. The reason he can is because cardboard is made of woodpulp, which is a natural material. Natural material does not hamper magic in any way. There is no mention of vehicles made of natural materials, but neither is there mention that such could not be made. The passages that do mention magic not penetrating robots or vehicles are precluded to the materials that DO hamper magic. Such as metals and man-made items.

aren't Hyundai and Kias made of card board? OK not card board how about fiberglass or plastic? You do realise that metals are a natural element as is silica which fiberglass is made of and oil which most plastics are produced from? Even a freakin Abrams Battle Tank is all natural materials. None of it is made of any material that is completely man made the Chobam armor is steel, depleted uranium and ceramic plate. Also the process that the wood pulp goes through could eqally make cardboard be considered man made not to mention the engineering going into corrigating it. Cardboard is less natural than a cast iron pan.

[Dr. Doom III]

On a happy note... I JUST GOT MARRIED!!!!
It was a beutiful service, my wife was lovely, I hate my in-laws.

On a sad note, this thread still is kicking. I'm still going to agree with TM but on VERY DIFFRENT TERMS! I still think of Robots from Robotech, the game that got me into this mess long, long ago. when piloting, you were 'one' with the robot, that is where the bonuses come from. Roy Folker even said it in the first episode of the old cartoon.

Protoculture forms a kind of symbiotic link with the pilot.
Totally irrelevant here.

[ApocalypseZero]

I just can't belive this thread is still alive.

What you expect Doom and TM to agree before the Apocolypse?

That's kinda hard. I don't know Doom or TM and I doubt we're close enough to have them agree before me.

[Zer0 Kay]

I just can't belive this thread is still alive.

What you expect Doom and TM to agree before the Apocolypse?

That's kinda hard. I don't know Doom or TM and I doubt we're close enough to have them agree before me.

But your not the Apocalypse you are the Anti-Apocalypse, ApocalypseZero!

[Zer0 Kay]

On a happy note... I JUST GOT MARRIED!!!!
It was a beutiful service, my wife was lovely, I hate my in-laws.

On a sad note, this thread still is kicking. I'm still going to agree with TM but on VERY DIFFRENT TERMS! I still think of Robots from Robotech, the game that got me into this mess long, long ago. when piloting, you were 'one' with the robot, that is where the bonuses come from. Roy Folker even said it in the first episode of the old cartoon.

So, the robot is 'one' with pilot and cockpit, Teleporting in would be like teleporting into a person's stomach. Thats why it's not a 'place' to me.

I think you can see why I fell that robots work this way. I'm sure you can at least understand where I'm coming from. My house ruling is very consistent.

I also noticed for some reason people think a teleported robot would leave behind the pilots. By that logic, wouldn't the spell leave behind everything other then the 'skin' of the robot? I mean the skin can be affected, and nothing else. Of course that would never happen. the insides of the robot would have to go with, along with the pilot.

Uh...Your one with a Robotech "robot" (they aren't robots there Mecha) because of the Protoculture. A Rifts Robot is simply a walking tank. The Giant Robots of Rifts aren't described as being able to do "any" manuver the pilot can do physically because they are simply vehicles not Mecha. You have a person in a large cockpit driving it like a tank. The legs are a form of ATV locomotion on the Giant Robots not an extension of your own like they are in a Veritech...hmm I'd go as far as saying it was only the VTs that could do the human like feats the Destroids were more like tanks themselves and I think it shows in their Mecha Combat Stats.

I think the point of the arguement of the pilot left behind is that it doesn't happen so the spell can effect the pilot and equipment inside.

[Zer0 Kay]

On a happy note... I JUST GOT MARRIED!!!!
It was a beutiful service, my wife was lovely, I hate my in-laws.

On a sad note, this thread still is kicking. I'm still going to agree with TM but on VERY DIFFRENT TERMS! I still think of Robots from Robotech, the game that got me into this mess long, long ago. when piloting, you were 'one' with the robot, that is where the bonuses come from. Roy Folker even said it in the first episode of the old cartoon.

So, the robot is 'one' with pilot and cockpit, Teleporting in would be like teleporting into a person's stomach. Thats why it's not a 'place' to me.

I think you can see why I fell that robots work this way. I'm sure you can at least understand where I'm coming from. My house ruling is very consistent.

I also noticed for some reason people think a teleported robot would leave behind the pilots. By that logic, wouldn't the spell leave behind everything other then the 'skin' of the robot? I mean the skin can be affected, and nothing else. Of course that would never happen. the insides of the robot would have to go with, along with the pilot.

Uh...Your one with a Robotech "robot" (they aren't robots there Mecha) because of the Protoculture. A Rifts Robot is simply a walking tank. The Giant Robots of Rifts aren't described as being able to do "any" manuver the pilot can do physically because they are simply vehicles not Mecha. You have a person in a large cockpit driving it like a tank. The legs are a form of ATV locomotion on the Giant Robots not an extension of your own like they are in a Veritech...hmm I'd go as far as saying it was only the VTs that could do the human like feats the Destroids were more like tanks themselves and I think it shows in their Mecha Combat Stats.

I think the point of the arguement of the pilot left behind is that it doesn't happen so the spell can effect the pilot and equipment inside.

Actually the conection to the mecha was the helmets. Destroids did it too. So what about those, I want to say cyber jacks, that let you jack into a robot? Wouldn't that make a connection that magic would respect? You can see pictures with cockpits having this cyber jack slot in the Russia Warlords book 17. I would think magic would respect that and wouldn't be able to seperate the two.

Helmets only in the books not in the Anime or the Game. None of the Rifts books state the pilots are jacked into the robot if the robot pilots had to then so would any PA pilot and there is no evidence of a jack in the GB which is a Robot (at least in the main book, of course later books change that). That may be in Russia maybe because Borgs are more prevailent and more likely to have the hookups.

Quit trying to make CS Giant Robots what they aren't. The book does state that both VTs and Destroids share the symbiotic link. It also states that they sacrifice the agility and speed available to the veritechs in favor of sheer firepower and armor, equating them to tanks of the of old. Where as the VTs are described as moving with an almost human agility. The CS giant robots are never claimed as being able to do this. So you have the VT's Jean Claud Van Dam, Destroids Arnold Schwartzeneiger, then Rifts Giant Robots... Cheezy (dare I say it) Power Ranger Mega Zord movement or Frankenstien (classic). I know my spelling is attrocious. Rifts Giant Robots share no link with the pilots.

If you read the RT books and know about the helmets then you should also know about Haydon and how the FoL is part of him. I use elements from the book, RPG and series. Protoculture energy is produced by placing the FoL seed under pressure causing a fusion reaction. While the flower is active the essence of Haydon is able to Telepathicaly determine what the character wants and then use it's Telemechanics to aid in the control of the machine. (for more info on my theory of that check out "Thinking caps- A fresh pick at an old wound" in the RT section). So a Robot pilot in Rifts with Telemechanics and a friendly AI may be able to perform somewhat like an RT Mecha.

[Killer Cyborg]

According to Conversion Book 1 (Unrevised), if a robotech vehicle swaps its protoculture power source for nuclear then the pilot loses a lot of combat bonuses because they are no longer linked to the machine.
Protoculture vehicles are a seperate case from Rifts robots and vehicles.

[Dr. Doom III]

How did robotech and protoculture get into this? I'm too lazy to read.

I could tell you but you would have to read it.

[Svartalf]

How did robotech and protoculture get into this? I'm too lazy to read.

I could tell you but you would have to read it.

Tycio SERVED !
1 for Doom

[Zer0 Kay]

How did robotech and protoculture get into this? I'm too lazy to read.

silverlb figures that the pilots transport with the machine because the pilots are a part of the machine. He sees the Rifts Giant Robots as Robotech like Mecha, extensions of the person.

I argue that RGRs are bipedal tanks lumbering warmachines closer to Battletechs Mechs than RTs Mecha. A RT VT in Battloid form is capable of doing any manuver the human pilot is, jump kicks, graceful rolls etc... . A RGR is simply A tank that moves on two legs rather than treads and has arms attached. If a pilot is in a VT and knows JKD and is knocked back a successful roll with P/F/B might end with a kippup. The same pilot in a CS Skull Walker or Even a GB with a successful roll means he put his limbs (arms, guns etc.) so they didn't brace the bot against the blast allowing it to roll with it. Then the pilot has to get back to his belly to be able to use the arms to push himself up, I guess they might be able to push themselves up into a sitting possition and try to get up from there.

So they can not be equated to RT Mecha as the pilots being a part of the robot. Just a long winded nahuh I guess.

[Killer Cyborg]

TM still has a very strong point to hold on to. There is nothing that can cause him to let it go. No ruling in any book is more spicific then a rule clarification for all forms of magic. I've tried to out-source myself by looking at everything from other spells to other spell rulings, pitcures in the books, anything that would prove one way or the other. The BOM ruleing is the most direct rule there is. Otherwise, we are just nitpiking back and forth.

The very nature of the Teleportation spell indicates that it can over-ride the BoM rule. This is what I was in the middle of demonstrating to him when he either ran off or simply got too busy to be online for a while.

If you want to see where his line of thinking takes him, try to answer these questions:
1. Picture a large cardboard box covered in tin-foil. Can a mage teleport into it? Technically, there is nothing in the rules that says you cannot.
2. Now take this same box and attach wheels onto it. Can you teleport into it now? TM's strict interpretation of the rules says NO.

This leaves you with an absurd situation where you can teleport into an object in one situation, but cannot teleport into the same object if a superficial change is made. Heck, you don't even need to attach wheels to the box to make it into a vehicle... take it to a snowy hillside, get in, and sled down the hill. Now it's a vehicle...

In order to explain why you can't teleport into vehicles, TM decided that it must be the material involved; man-made materials like plastic or metal interfere with magic. (He side-stepped my original question about a plain cardboard box by declaring that cardboard was an organic material, therefore teleportation could occur. Hence the tin-foil this time.)

Back to the Foil Covered Box.
If it is the materials involved in the vehicles that prevents magic from penetrating it, then a normal cardboard box covered in tin-foil is immune to teleportation. For that matter, if you put a mage into a large plastic bag he cannot teleport out.
For that matter, a mage couldn't teleport into any home with aluminum siding, plaster walls, plastic siding, concrete, or any of the other modern building materials commonly used today.
Which pretty much renders the Teleport spell useless.

Also, this theory directly contradicts the original rule he keeps quoting; that magic cannot penetrate vehicles. It never specifies a specific type of vehicle, so teleporting into a cardboard box on wheels is technically illegal. Or teleporting into an Ironwood Consatoga wagon, for that matter, is illegal... but TM's interpretation says that it should work, even though it contradicts the very rule that he has built his entire case on.

[Temporalmage]

Hey all...Been a crazy week with HUD inspections at work. But I see my absence hasn't gone unnoticed.

silverlb....Congrats on the marrage!!

Killer Cyborg.... I believe I've told you before that it's up to each GM as to what exactly would define a vehicle. For me it would have to at least be one from the books, or somthing that is obviously tech. I personally don't think of wagons as vehicles. When I think of a cardboard box with wheels I don't think of it as a vehicle. I think of it as dumb. So your example is pretty irrelevant to this topic.

Doom.... The passage we've bandered about so long now begins with a question directly above it in the BOM that discusses how metal and man made materials effect magic. The discussion continues with the question of "what about robots and power armor" or somthing like that. So the logical conclusion is that some how the metal and man made stuff that makes up robots and vehicles causes magic to not be able to penetrate. This would have nothing to do with line of sight. Now if you look at the previous page in the BOM that discusses this a bit more it talks about a mage having to lean his upper body totally out of the vehicle to cast a spell. In that passage it says that some of the problem is line of sight, but the key word here is "some". Basicly it's not saying "all". So all the problems can't just be due to line of sight like you seem to be stating.
All this time I've been defending this specific rule I've been put on the defensive by everyone asking me "why" or "how" magic is stopped. In fact I've been asked directly for my opinion on this issue and then given examples to explain, such as conastoga wagons and cardboard box's. Well the truth of the matter is I DON"T HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT!! It's a rule in the books, magic can't penetrate robots and vehicles, teleport is magic and does not state that it's an exception, so therefor could never happen. The only way for Doom, or anyone else with similar views, to win this argument is to prove one of the following things:
1. teleport isn't magic
2. teleport is an exception
If you can't prove one of these two things by using published Palladium material then your argument has no merrit whatsoever.

[Dr. Doom III]

What makes you think that is an arguement? A big cardboard box does not a giant vehicle make.

It doesn't say giant vehicle. Just vehicle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey all...Been a crazy week with HUD inspections at work. But I see my absence hasn't gone unnoticed.

Welcome back!

Killer Cyborg.... I believe I've told you before that it's up to each GM as to what exactly would define a vehicle. For me it would have to at least be one from the books, or somthing that is obviously tech. I personally don't think of wagons as vehicles. When I think of a cardboard box with wheels I don't think of it as a vehicle. I think of it as dumb. So your example is pretty irrelevant to this topic.

You don't consider Wagons to be vehicles?
What are they then...?
What about skateboards (boards with wheels)?
Cars (Metal boxes with motors and wheels)?

All this time I've been defending this specific rule I've been put on the defensive by everyone asking me "why" or "how" magic is stopped. In fact I've been asked directly for my opinion on this issue and then given examples to explain, such as conastoga wagons and cardboard box's. Well the truth of the matter is I DON"T HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT!!

You don't have to do anything.
But there are things that you should do, such as support your argument.
As I have said, the very nature of the Teleport spell makes it clear that it is an exception to the rule.
I'm trying to demonstrate that to you, but you keep going off on bizarre tangents like claiming that wagons aren't vehicles and that cardboard boxes are dumb....

[Killer Cyborg]

What makes you think that is an arguement? A big cardboard box does not a giant vehicle make.

It doesn't say giant vehicle. Just vehicle.

I pointed this out earlier, BTW.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

What makes you think that is an arguement? A big cardboard box does not a giant vehicle make.

It doesn't say giant vehicle. Just vehicle.

I pointed this out earlier, BTW.

People don't read all the posts, that would be silly...

[Killer Cyborg]

What makes you think that is an arguement? A big cardboard box does not a giant vehicle make.

It doesn't say giant vehicle. Just vehicle.

I pointed this out earlier, BTW.

People don't read all the posts, that would be silly...

I did read that. You know what the intent of the word meant. A sled and a robot are very different. They were comparing The vehicle to a robot, the vehicle in mind must have been big, high tech and war like. The Q and A answer would be 2 pages long if they had to explain definitions and newances to the level that would satisfy you. English must be read in context or it doesn't work. That is how we can enjoy sarcasm and double meanings.

The intent of the word meant "Vehicles".
Which does NOT, in any way, mean "Giant" Vehicles.
Quit pretending that it does.
They weren't comparing vehicles to robots, they said "Giant robots, and vehicles".
If I said "My Brother and I were...", Is that a comparison between the two of us? No.
If I write a Grocery list, am I automatically comparing everything on the list against each other?
NO.