This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Killer Cyborg]

I think a definitive, 2 page long Q&A would be preferable to a 57+ page debate on the context (although not nearly as amusing).

Very good call!

[Dr. Doom III]

The intent of the word meant "Vehicles".
Which does NOT, in any way, mean "Giant" Vehicles.
Quit pretending that it does.
They weren't comparing vehicles to robots, they said "Giant robots, and vehicles".
If I said "My Brother and I were...", Is that a comparison between the two of us? No.
If I write a Grocery list, am I automatically comparing everything on the list against each other?
NO.

Also the only reason it says “Giant Robots” is to distinguish them from robots that are not vehicles.
They could have said robot vehicles and vehicles but that would sound stupid.

[Zer0 Kay]

. The book does state that both VTs and Destroids share the symbiotic link. It also states that they sacrifice the agility and speed available to the veritechs in favor of sheer firepower and armor, equating them to tanks of the of old. Where as the VTs are described as moving with an almost human agility. The CS giant robots are never claimed as being able to do this. So you have the VT's Jean Claud Van Dam, Destroids Arnold Schwartzeneiger, then Rifts Giant Robots... Cheezy (dare I say it) Power Ranger Mega Zord movement or Frankenstien (classic). I know my spelling is attrocious. Rifts Giant Robots share no link with the pilots.

If you read the RT books and know about the helmets then you should also know about Haydon and how the FoL is part of him. I use elements from the book, RPG and series. Protoculture energy is produced by placing the FoL seed under pressure causing a fusion reaction. While the flower is active the essence of Haydon is able to Telepathicaly determine what the character wants and then use it's Telemechanics to aid in the control of the machine. (for more info on my theory of that check out "Thinking caps- A fresh pick at an old wound" in the RT section). So a Robot pilot in Rifts with Telemechanics and a friendly AI may be able to perform somewhat like an RT Mecha.

Oh that was good.

I am to much of a geek because I did understand every thing you just said and said 'oh yeah, thats right.' Then I looked in my big stack of rifts books and noticed that the bonuses for the VT Mecha are on par with most of the lighter robots. I don't know about Van Damn, maybe Chuck Nores.

Anyway, TM still has a very strong point to hold on to. There is nothing that can cause him to let it go. No ruling in any book is more spicific then a rule clarification for all forms of magic. I've tried to out-source myself by looking at everything from other spells to other spell rulings, pitcures in the books, anything that would prove one way or the other. The BOM ruleing is the most direct rule there is. Otherwise, we are just nitpiking back and forth.

Thanks, I think.
Oh and congrats!!

[Zer0 Kay]

You realize all this doesn't matter tomarrow you still won't be able to teleport into a giant robot miniature, much less a giant cardboard box on wheels plated with MDC aluminum.

It's a GM call, I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM. The books are all just a guide a frame work for the GM to use to create a game world. The books may be canon but the GM is god if the GM says everyone moves in bullet time then everyone moves in bullet time, it may get a bit boring but, GM rules. I for one don't have the BoM and haven't ever had an issue with a player abusing the power so there is no need for me to argue it really, other than it's fun .

However if the arguement is that one can't teleport into a vehicle because it is made of manmade materials, then it shouldn't matter if it is wood, iron, steel or plastic all of them have been processed and are truely no longer natural. There is no material that man uses which isn't a derivative of natural materials, so what material it is made of shouldn't matter. So if this is the case size shouldn't matter a giant robot or (any) vehicle, hmm... maybe they should have just said ANY VEHICLE, only has one difference between it and a building made of the same material. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller...Bueller? IT MOVES!! All right so if that is the only difference then if a vehicle isn't moving then can you teleport into it?

Lets just face it material, size, movement doesn't explain it. It is PB game ballance. It is far too easy for a group of mages to easily dismantle an entire armored platoon in this manner. However at the same time they have spells that show the great spell gods must be bennevolent tword technology. I forgot the name but the spell that allows the mage to make a mechanical component fail. The mage is able to make any component fail that will not imobilize or cause a catastrofic failure happen. So you can slow the robot make it so triggers don't work but you can't make a simple actuator on a regulator rod in the power plant not work causing a melt down? You can't cause the power converter to fail stopping all electricity to the entire system, if you argue that is electrical not mechanical fine then how about the generator that feeds the power supply that contains the converter .

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM.

I disagree entirely.
If the rule in the BoM was meant to block teleportation specifically, they would have mentioned it.
The context of what they are saying is this:

-You can't cast spells from inside (certain types of) body armor because it interferes with magic.
-While we're on the subject, this also applies to power armor.
-Okay, you'll probably want to know about robot vehicles next... You can't cast from inside a robot vehicle, or any vehicle, without sticking half your body outside and giving other people a fair shot back at you. Otherwise mages would be too powerful and could just drive around in tanks zapping people with no danger to themselves. So if a mage is inside a vehicle and casts a spell, he can only target people inside that vehicle.
-Oh, and if a mage on the outside casts a spell he has to target the robot instead of the pilots, that way he can't paralyze, curse, call lightning, or otherwise inconvenience the pilots. This should be obvious, but we'll mention it just in case.

They weren't even thinking about Teleport when they made the rule.

[Temporalmage]

I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM.

I disagree entirely.
If the rule in the BoM was meant to block teleportation specifically, they would have mentioned it.

That rule does not specify any specific spell, if it did the list would be huge. What is more important, and more proving to me, is that the spell teleport is not specified as being an exception to the rule. Some spells are exceptions. And they state specifically in the spell discription that they are. Teleport does not.

The context of what they are saying is this:

-You can't cast spells from inside (certain types of) body armor because it interferes with magic.
-While we're on the subject, this also applies to power armor.
-Okay, you'll probably want to know about robot vehicles next... You can't cast from inside a robot vehicle, or any vehicle, without sticking half your body outside and giving other people a fair shot back at you. Otherwise mages would be too powerful and could just drive around in tanks zapping people with no danger to themselves. So if a mage is inside a vehicle and casts a spell, he can only target people inside that vehicle.
-Oh, and if a mage on the outside casts a spell he has to target the robot instead of the pilots, that way he can't paralyze, curse, call lightning, or otherwise inconvenience the pilots. This should be obvious, but we'll mention it just in case.

They weren't even thinking about Teleport when they made the rule.

Just how is it that you know what "they" were or were not thinking about when they made this rule? If you have some sort of proof then you should post it here so that this argument can end one way or the other. If you prove me wrong somehow I'll be man enough to post an entire new topic stating how wrong I was. Would you be man enough to do the same if no such proof is available? How about you simply prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that teleport isn't subject to the same rules that apply to all magic. Or prove that a mage can teleport into a robot or vehicle. You have over twenty Rifts books, plus all the other Palladium products to draw from, if your so right then it shouldn't be too hard.

[Temporalmage]

You realize all this doesn't matter tomarrow you still won't be able to teleport into a giant robot miniature, much less a giant cardboard box on wheels plated with MDC aluminum.

It's a GM call, I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM. The books are all just a guide a frame work for the GM to use to create a game world. The books may be canon but the GM is god if the GM says everyone moves in bullet time then everyone moves in bullet time, it may get a bit boring but, GM rules. I for one don't have the BoM and haven't ever had an issue with a player abusing the power so there is no need for me to argue it really, other than it's fun .

However if the arguement is that one can't teleport into a vehicle because it is made of manmade materials, then it shouldn't matter if it is wood, iron, steel or plastic all of them have been processed and are truely no longer natural. There is no material that man uses which isn't a derivative of natural materials, so what material it is made of shouldn't matter. So if this is the case size shouldn't matter a giant robot or (any) vehicle, hmm... maybe they should have just said ANY VEHICLE, only has one difference between it and a building made of the same material. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller...Bueller? IT MOVES!! All right so if that is the only difference then if a vehicle isn't moving then can you teleport into it?

Lets just face it material, size, movement doesn't explain it. It is PB game ballance. It is far too easy for a group of mages to easily dismantle an entire armored platoon in this manner. However at the same time they have spells that show the great spell gods must be bennevolent tword technology. I forgot the name but the spell that allows the mage to make a mechanical component fail. The mage is able to make any component fail that will not imobilize or cause a catastofic failure happen. So you can slow the robot make it so triggers don't work but you can make a simple actuator on a regulator rod in the power plant not work causing a melt down? You can't cause the power converter to fail stopping all electricity to the entire system, if you argue that is electrical not mechanical fine then how about the generator that feeds the power supply that contains the converter .

Good argument, Welcome to the dark side! I believe the spell your looking for is negate mechanics, a 7th level spell.

[Dr. Doom III]

That rule does not specify any specific spell, if it did the list would be huge. What is more important, and more proving to me, is that the spell teleport is not specified as being an exception to the rule. Some spells are exceptions. And they state specifically in the spell discription that they are. Teleport does not.

They don't need to.
It's obvious.

Just how is it that you know what "they" were or were not thinking about when they made this rule? If you have some sort of proof then you should post it here so that this argument can end one way or the other. If you prove me wrong somehow I'll be man enough to post an entire new topic stating how wrong I was. Would you be man enough to do the same if no such proof is available? How about you simply prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that teleport isn't subject to the same rules that apply to all magic. Or prove that a mage can teleport into a robot or vehicle. You have over twenty Rifts books, plus all the other Palladium products to draw from, if your so right then it shouldn't be too hard.

It's also obvious.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM.

I disagree entirely.
If the rule in the BoM was meant to block teleportation specifically, they would have mentioned it.

That rule does not specify any specific spell, if it did the list would be huge. What is more important, and more proving to me, is that the spell teleport is not specified as being an exception to the rule. Some spells are exceptions. And they state specifically in the spell discription that they are. Teleport does not.

The context of what they are saying is this:

-You can't cast spells from inside (certain types of) body armor because it interferes with magic.
-While we're on the subject, this also applies to power armor.
-Okay, you'll probably want to know about robot vehicles next... You can't cast from inside a robot vehicle, or any vehicle, without sticking half your body outside and giving other people a fair shot back at you. Otherwise mages would be too powerful and could just drive around in tanks zapping people with no danger to themselves. So if a mage is inside a vehicle and casts a spell, he can only target people inside that vehicle.
-Oh, and if a mage on the outside casts a spell he has to target the robot instead of the pilots, that way he can't paralyze, curse, call lightning, or otherwise inconvenience the pilots. This should be obvious, but we'll mention it just in case.

They weren't even thinking about Teleport when they made the rule.

Just how is it that you know what "they" were or were not thinking about when they made this rule? If you have some sort of proof then you should post it here so that this argument can end one way or the other.

I've already said it; it's just obvious from looking at the material.
That's not good enough for you, so here we are.

Which reminds me...
1. By your interpretation of the rules, a mage couldn't teleport out of a tinfoil lined cardboard box or a plastic bag, because these are man-made materials. Am I correct in this, or is there a part of your view on things that I am missing?
2. You still haven't explained how a mage could teleport the pilot of a robot along with the robot using Teleport: Superior if magic can't affect people inside vehicles.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm sure before the BoM came out even KS had issues with players abusing T-Port. That is likely why it was put into the BoM.

I disagree entirely.
If the rule in the BoM was meant to block teleportation specifically, they would have mentioned it.
The context of what they are saying is this:

-You can't cast spells from inside (certain types of) body armor because it interferes with magic.
-While we're on the subject, this also applies to power armor.
-Okay, you'll probably want to know about robot vehicles next... You can't cast from inside a robot vehicle, or any vehicle, without sticking half your body outside and giving other people a fair shot back at you. Otherwise mages would be too powerful and could just drive around in tanks zapping people with no danger to themselves. So if a mage is inside a vehicle and casts a spell, he can only target people inside that vehicle.
-Oh, and if a mage on the outside casts a spell he has to target the robot instead of the pilots, that way he can't paralyze, curse, call lightning, or otherwise inconvenience the pilots. This should be obvious, but we'll mention it just in case.

They weren't even thinking about Teleport when they made the rule.

Hmm good point. However the argument on metal affecting the casting of spells (and it has been argued that it is the metal)...what about the Plastic Man, yes I know you said certain types?

How is allowing mages, who in a spontanious fight against a single Juicer or even Dead Boy in Light Body armor with a standard MD pistol would be instantaniously slaughtered, making them too powerful? If that was a worry any way they wouldn't have put magical armor or Juggernauts in the game (even though most mages don't have access to these).

Fair on the vehicles though. If a mage wants to ride in a vehicle then use the built in weapons. But armor, that gives an "unfair" advantage to the techies.

NO I am not whining... I don't use mages, I just think it is unfair. How is it fair that a mage can't use teleport: superior to get into his own mountaineer because he is in light armor and the mountaineer is a vehicle. When a Burster can cause a MD fire to erupt in the cargo hold of a DHT while he is inside a Glitterboy? Oh wait...they'll probably change that now in the BoP, immediately followed by a revised Psyscape without the psionic powers in it

[Zer0 Kay]

That rule does not specify any specific spell, if it did the list would be huge. What is more important, and more proving to me, is that the spell teleport is not specified as being an exception to the rule. Some spells are exceptions. And they state specifically in the spell discription that they are. Teleport does not.

Of course there is an issue that they would have to go back and rewrite the main book in order to give Teleport the text to do that instead of just leaving anywhere in it.

Just how is it that you know what "they" were or were not thinking about when they made this rule? If you have some sort of proof then you should post it here so that this argument can end one way or the other. If you prove me wrong somehow I'll be man enough to post an entire new topic stating how wrong I was. Would you be man enough to do the same if no such proof is available? How about you simply prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that teleport isn't subject to the same rules that apply to all magic. Or prove that a mage can teleport into a robot or vehicle. You have over twenty Rifts books, plus all the other Palladium products to draw from, if your so right then it shouldn't be too hard.

At the same time I also made the assumption that they were thinking about teleport when they made the rule. So that goes both ways, and I am willing to admit that I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote it...although I would like to know.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm good point. However the argument on metal affecting the casting of spells (and it has been argued that it is the metal)...what about the Plastic Man, yes I know you said certain types?

I don't get the question.

How is allowing mages, who in a spontanious fight against a single Juicer or even Dead Boy in Light Body armor with a standard MD pistol would be instantaniously slaughtered, making them too powerful? If that was a worry any way they wouldn't have put magical armor or Juggernauts in the game (even though most mages don't have access to these).

Palladium alternates between thinking that mages are too powerful (which they are) and thinking that mages are too weak (which they also are), and they try to introduce new stuff in attempts to fix the problem.
The result is not pretty.

How is it fair that a mage can't use teleport: superior to get into his own mountaineer because he is in light armor and the mountaineer is a vehicle.

I don't think it IS fair, and I don't think it was the intent.
Heck, I don't even think it is the result.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmm good point. However the argument on metal affecting the casting of spells (and it has been argued that it is the metal)...what about the Plastic Man, yes I know you said certain types?

I don't get the question.

Oops should have been a statement. Maybe it was a question on wether or not you think a mage could wear Plastic Man armor without hindrance.

How is allowing mages, who in a spontanious fight against a single Juicer or even Dead Boy in Light Body armor with a standard MD pistol would be instantaniously slaughtered, making them too powerful? If that was a worry any way they wouldn't have put magical armor or Juggernauts in the game (even though most mages don't have access to these).

Palladium alternates between thinking that mages are too powerful (which they are) and thinking that mages are too weak (which they also are), and they try to introduce new stuff in attempts to fix the problem.
The result is not pretty.

First, how can they be both? Second, to fix it they should only need to allow them to have armor. Make mystic armor equivalent to DB light or heavy and make it so it is readily available to them. Even just a pendant or ring that has sixth-sense and Armor of Ithan on it so that when the item detects danger (not the user) the item casts the spell.

I think it's completely fair that a mage can't cast an attack spell (as in LOS spells that cause damage to their target) without exposing himself to danger when inside an enclosed armed vehicle. At the same time though he should be able to fire off pistol like shots from a window like anyone else. Maybe a limitation, due to all the jostling in a moving vehicle or the lack of concentration used to perform a "snap" shot only first through fifth level spells may be cast and even then are only at half strength (damage only). It could be that the jostling only allows the first through fifth level spells because the higher level spells requiring to many hand gestures to "shoot". The lack of concentration (or presence of distractions) from trying to shove your arm out the window or finger out a gun port (hope they don't hit a bump and break the finger or worse) and take aim at a target, doesn't allow for as much focus of PPE causing the mystic to perform at lower levels. Maybe some instruction that the Mage's hands/spells, in most cases, are to be considered like a gun. You can't fire through the hull of a tank without damaging the inside first. Sure you may end up with mages driving in a Mountaneer "shooting" out the window in a "car" chase. However, the intelligent mages will opt not to open their casting instruments to called shots. A headhunter or juicer can get cyber/bionic replacement, but a mage... .

How is it fair that a mage can't use teleport: superior to get into his own mountaineer because he is in light armor and the mountaineer is a vehicle.

I don't think it IS fair, and I don't think it was the intent.
Heck, I don't even think it is the result.

OK...

I forget are you pro Doom or TM? Rather are you arguing:

T-Port says ANYWHERE and with that single word connotates that it ignores/bypasses the "new" rule and was seen as not needing to be rewritten. This is your point, correct, Doom?

The new rules say NO MAGIC can affect equipment or personnel within any vehicle from outside or vice versa and any spell that ignores this will say so (any includes giant robots). This is your point, right, TM? By the way TM does the BoM say that any spell that ignores the rule will say so or was that an assumption on your part just because some of the spells do? If it is because some of the spells do then I could use the PFRPG Call lightning arguement that since CL says that it can be cast from indoors that no other LOS spell can be.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm good point. However the argument on metal affecting the casting of spells (and it has been argued that it is the metal)...what about the Plastic Man, yes I know you said certain types?

I don't get the question.

Oops should have been a statement. Maybe it was a question on wether or not you think a mage could wear Plastic Man armor without hindrance.

mage/Armor thing is messed up.
Initially, mages only problem with armor was reduced speed and mobility.
Then (if I remember right) they couldn't effectively use EBA
Then it was "any man-made materials"
Now it's just "metal that covers more than 50% of the body".

So mages could originally wear Plastic Man with no problems, then they couldn't, then they couldn't for a different/additional reason, and now they can again (unless the EBA thing is still in effect).

Short answer; they can wear it okay.

First, how can they be both?

Originally, mages were fairly balanced with Men-At-Arms. They did less damage, but they had spells like CoA and Magic Net to compensate under the right circumstances.
-Then Palladium introduced the "2 attacks for living", and suddenly a mage gets shot 2+ times for every spell he wants to cast (which also means a greater chance to be interrupted before the spell goes off).
-Then Mages got more powerful spells in Federation of Magic. Before FoM you had to be high level to do much damage from a spell, and magic couldn't incapacitate MDC or military vehicles/electronics. After FoM, Magic spells are a LOT more powerful (too powerful, really), but that doesn't change the fact that they cast way too slow.
At this point, mages are like a guy carrying an unloaded rocket launcher: If he gets his shot off, then he can do massive damage... but that just make him a high-priority target. Everybody wants to kill the mage before he gets his spell off, so the mage usually dies (unless he can hide the fact that he is a mage and the fact that he is casting a spell... good luck against Psi-stalkers and Dog-Boys...)
-Then Palladium took away the mage's ability to wear decent armor (like the armor he gets in his starting equipment!) and still cast spells.
So now the guy with the unloaded rocket launcher is not only a high priority target to all the enemies, he's a high priority target with NO ARMOR (or armor that screws up his rocket launcher, which is the only thing he has going for him).
-Then Palladium caught on that mages need armor to survive in Rifts, and they changed the rule to "no metal armor". Which means that they went through all that just to end up with a rule that has no real bearing on the game (as Rifts armor isn't metal).
But the mage is still stuck in the position of a guy with an unloaded rocket launcher; he'll likely be dead before he gets a shot off, but if he does then the battle is practically won.

Second, to fix it they should only need to allow them to have armor. Make mystic armor equivalent to DB light or heavy and make it so it is readily available to them. Even just a pendant or ring that has sixth-sense and Armor of Ithan on it so that when the item detects danger (not the user) the item casts the spell.

Really, all they needed to do to fix things a bit was this:
Increase the duration of Armor of Ithan to "24 hours" and rule that, since the AoI is "a suit of invisible armor" it cannot be used in conjunction with normal armor.
Same with Invincible Armor, Armor Bizzare, etc.
Then a mage could wear normal armor, or he could go with a spell instead of armor.

I forget are you pro Doom or TM? Rather are you arguing:

T-Port says ANYWHERE and with that single word connotates that it ignores/bypasses the "new" rule and was seen as not needing to be rewritten. This is your point, correct, Doom?

Yes, I am arguing that the nature of the Teleport spells indicate that they can ignore the usual restrictions on magic penetrating vehicles.
I see no indication that they intended it to limit Teleport, just other magic spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

When I find my book I'll post page number and spell. I think it was lv six.....
Once I find it that will throw this cardboard box idea out the window.

Not necessarily.
What constitutes "High Tech"?
Cardboard takes a decent amount of technology to create.
For that matter, if the cardboard factor is elimited, then we move on to the questions "Can a mage teleport into a cardboard box liked with tin foil?", "Can a mage teleport into a plastic box?", or "Can a mage teleport out of a plastic bag?"

[Dr. Doom III]

Intressting to point out that both camps are making a big assumption. Anyway, I was paging through the BOM, and I found a spell that clears things up for me. It is a mind affecting spell that states in the discription that it can't pass through Robot Vehicles or High Tech Vehicles. When I find my book I'll post page number and spell. I think it was lv six.....
Once I find it that will throw this cardboard box idea out the window. It show the obvious intent of the ruling. I also noticed the spell in general were not rewritten in the BOM, just transfered. I'll get back tomarrow with specific spell. Vote for Kerry!

Fact: Magic cannot target things inside Giant robots and vehicles from the outside and vice versa.
Fact: Teleport doesn't target anything inside the vehicle. It's a self or touch spell.
Fact: Teleport totally bypasses the intervening space between the starting point and the desired location of the teleport.
Fact: The mage can teleport anywhere known by the mage within range.
Nope no assumptions here.

The spells were just transferred? Care to compare the Summon Shadow Beast spell?

[Zer0 Kay]

[
I forget are you pro Doom or TM? Rather are you arguing:

T-Port says ANYWHERE and with that single word connotates that it ignores/bypasses the "new" rule and was seen as not needing to be rewritten. This is your point, correct, Doom?

The new rules say NO MAGIC can affect equipment or personnel within any vehicle from outside or vice versa and any spell that ignores this will say so (any includes giant robots). This is your point, right, TM? By the way TM does the BoM say that any spell that ignores the rule will say so or was that an assumption on your part just because some of the spells do? If it is because some of the spells do then I could use the PFRPG Call lightning arguement that since CL says that it can be cast from indoors that no other LOS spell can be.

Intressting to point out that both camps are making a big assumption. Anyway, I was paging through the BOM, and I found a spell that clears things up for me. It is a mind affecting spell that states in the discription that it can't pass through Robot Vehicles or High Tech Vehicles. When I find my book I'll post page number and spell. I think it was lv six.....
Once I find it that will throw this cardboard box idea out the window. It show the obvious intent of the ruling. I also noticed the spell in general were not rewritten in the BOM, just transfered. I'll get back tomarrow with specific spell. Vote for Kerry!

Hey don't get pollitical...Oh and I already did

[Zer0 Kay]

Second, to fix it they should only need to allow them to have armor. Make mystic armor equivalent to DB light or heavy and make it so it is readily available to them. Even just a pendant or ring that has sixth-sense and Armor of Ithan on it so that when the item detects danger (not the user) the item casts the spell.

Really, all they needed to do to fix things a bit was this:
Increase the duration of Armor of Ithan to "24 hours" and rule that, since the AoI is "a suit of invisible armor" it cannot be used in conjunction with normal armor.
Same with Invincible Armor, Armor Bizzare, etc.
Then a mage could wear normal armor, or he could go with a spell instead of armor.

Was thinking something like that but since it seems that PB likes fixing things by writing new stuff I didn't figure they'd rewrite something to make it work.

[Zer0 Kay]

Intressting to point out that both camps are making a big assumption. Anyway, I was paging through the BOM, and I found a spell that clears things up for me. It is a mind affecting spell that states in the discription that it can't pass through Robot Vehicles or High Tech Vehicles. When I find my book I'll post page number and spell. I think it was lv six.....
Once I find it that will throw this cardboard box idea out the window. It show the obvious intent of the ruling. I also noticed the spell in general were not rewritten in the BOM, just transfered. I'll get back tomarrow with specific spell. Vote for Kerry!

Fact: Magic cannot target things inside Giant robots and vehicles from the outside and vice versa.
Fact: Teleport doesn't target anything inside the vehicle. It's a self or touch spell.
Fact: Teleport totally bypasses the intervening space between the starting point and the target location.
Fact: The mage can teleport anywhere known by the mage within range.
Nope no assumptions here.

The spells were just transferred? Care to compare the Summon Shadow Beast spell?

Instead of target location you should use 'desired' location. Some don't understand it is only a 'target' in your head. You do nothing to the location there is no beacon that suddenly appears there. If they are going to restrict being able to visualize the desired location then I guess you can't remember what the inside of your vehicle looks like, forgetting while casting the spell then suddenly remembering after the spell fizzles.

[Zer0 Kay]

Intressting to point out that both camps are making a big assumption. Anyway, I was paging through the BOM, and I found a spell that clears things up for me. It is a mind affecting spell that states in the discription that it can't pass through Robot Vehicles or High Tech Vehicles. When I find my book I'll post page number and spell. I think it was lv six.....
Once I find it that will throw this cardboard box idea out the window. It show the obvious intent of the ruling. I also noticed the spell in general were not rewritten in the BOM, just transfered. I'll get back tomarrow with specific spell. Vote for Kerry!

Fact: Magic cannot target things inside Giant robots and vehicles from the outside and vice versa.
Fact: Teleport doesn't target anything inside the vehicle. It's a self or touch spell.
Fact: Teleport totally bypasses the intervening space between the starting point and the target location.
Fact: The mage can teleport anywhere known by the mage within range.
Nope no assumptions here.

The spells were just transferred? Care to compare the Summon Shadow Beast spell?

Instead of target location you should use 'desired' location. Some don't understand it is only a 'target' in your head. You do nothing to the location there is no beacon that suddenly appears there. If they are going to restrict being able to visualize the desired location then I guess you can't remember what the inside of your vehicle looks like, forgetting while casting the spell then suddenly remembering after the spell fizzles.

[Vrykolas2k]

So I couldn't teleport into a sealed box....but could I teleport the box around me?

You could teleport into an almuminum-foiled, duct-taped sealed box as long as it didn't have wheels, wings, et cetera.
Likewise, you could teleport it around you as long as there were no wheels and such...

[Dr. Doom III]

You missed a fact, Doom.

FACT: Magic can't bypass robot skin.

End if story.

Fact: You missed that part about teleport bypassing everything in the intervening space
Fact: You also missed that part about what it can't bypass to do, which teleport does not do.

End of story.

[Vrykolas2k]

So I couldn't teleport into a sealed box....but could I teleport the box around me?

You could teleport into an almuminum-foiled, duct-taped sealed box as long as it didn't have wheels, wings, et cetera.
Likewise, you could teleport it around you as long as there were no wheels and such...

Darn wings and wheels messing all of my magic up !!! Gargoyles and Fairies must be immune to magic too then. I hope I don't run into a D-bee with any sort of wheel appendage....my shifter will be f'ed.

According to certain schools of thought {using the term "thought" loosely}, that is essentially correct.

[Temporalmage]

Fact: Magic cannot target things inside Giant robots and vehicles from the outside and vice versa.

True

Fact: Teleport doesn't target anything inside the vehicle. It's a self or touch spell.

False. Teleport targets the destination. States this in the spell discription. Also how would the mage target where he/she wishes to end up, or would you rather a mage not target the destination and just choose to roll on the failed teleport chart?

Fact: Teleport totally bypasses the intervening space between the starting point and the desired location of the teleport.

True. As long as the desired location isn't inside a robot or vehicle if the caster is outside, and vice versa.

Fact: The mage can teleport anywhere known by the mage within range.

True. With the same restrictions as above.
[

Nope no assumptions here.

Nope. Except for your assumption that your correct. Which your not.

The spells were just transferred? Care to compare the Summon Shadow Beast spell?

Good point Doom. So if the spells wern't transfered then there should be some sort of mention in Teleport: Lesser that a mage could teleport objects into robots or vehicles. Teleport: Superior would say something about teleporting into robots. But they dont'. If they dont' then it's because they can't.
Nope no assumption here.

[Temporalmage]

Did anyone ever find any referance that states that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle?? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

How about this then.
Fact: Teleport is magical in nature.
Fact: Magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle.


Gee. I did it in two!! And not one assumption plus I can provide page numbers and books to back this up! Those that disapprove can't even provide a single page number or referance. How sad considering how long they've been argueing!!

[Dr. Doom III]

Nope. Except for your assumption that your correct. Which your not.

No that's a fact too.

Good point Doom. So if the spells wern't transfered then there should be some sort of mention in Teleport: Lesser that a mage could teleport objects into robots or vehicles. Teleport: Superior would say something about teleporting into robots. But they dont'. If they dont' then it's because they can't.
Nope no assumption here.

They still say anywhere known. There is no reason to say that they can because that's a given since that rule obviously doesn't encompass teleport because of the facts I gave above.

[Dr. Doom III]

Fact: Teleport is magical in nature.

False.
Not all teleportaton is magical.

Fact: Magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle.

False.
As you have said there are exceptions.

Gee. I did it in two!! And not one assumption plus I can provide page numbers and books to back this up! Those that disapprove can't even provide a single page number or referance. How sad considering how long they've been argueing!!

Got two more?

[Killer Cyborg]

Did anyone ever find any referance that states that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle?? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

How about this then.
Fact: Teleport is magical in nature.
Fact: Magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle.


Gee. I did it in two!! And not one assumption plus I can provide page numbers and books to back this up! Those that disapprove can't even provide a single page number or referance. How sad considering how long they've been argueing!!

Dude, quite posing and preening and answer my questions.
Really, do you really expect that after you spontaneously declare yourself the victor for the 1000th time that we'll just say "Oh. Man, I guess we're wrong..."

That's about as likely as you giving up after the 1000th time Doom proclaims himself the victor.
(Get it... "victor"...?)

[Marcethus]

Did anyone ever find any referance that states that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle?? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

"FIRE IN THE HOLE"
That's only Because I have spent over two + weeks reading this damned argument.
*Loads MAC II Cannon*
pg 63 Underseas. Spell casters inside vehicles can only cast spells that work inside the vehicle. Only Ranged and Area effect spells can be cast outside the confines of an underwater vessel, but only if the caster has a window or portal from which he can see his target; line of vision, view screens don't count.
*Fires MAC II Cannon*
Ok while that rule applies to line of sight and underwater vehicles it still blows a hole in your argument that Magic can not penetrate the skin of a vehicle

Hence why teleport can and does work for teleporting into a vehicle or giant robot. the Mages familiarity being the limiting factor only.
*Watches the Can't teleport into vehicle/giant robot arguement sink.

PS I would have posted this sooner had I realized this whole argument was just a bunch of back and forthing instead my warped mind insisted I read every effing page of it.

[Temporalmage]

Did anyone ever find any referance that states that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle?? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

"FIRE IN THE HOLE"
That's only Because I have spent over two + weeks reading this damned argument.
*Loads MAC II Cannon*
pg 63 Underseas. Spell casters inside vehicles can only cast spells that work inside the vehicle. Only Ranged and Area effect spells can be cast outside the confines of an underwater vessel, but only if the caster has a window or portal from which he can see his target; line of vision, view screens don't count.
*Fires MAC II Cannon*
Ok while that rule applies to line of sight and underwater vehicles it still blows a hole in your argument that Magic can not penetrate the skin of a vehicle

Hence why teleport can and does work for teleporting into a vehicle or giant robot. the Mages familiarity being the limiting factor only.
*Watches the Can't teleport into vehicle/giant robot arguement sink.

PS I would have posted this sooner had I realized this whole argument was just a bunch of back and forthing instead my warped mind insisted I read every effing page of it.

VERY VERY GOOD!!! I award you the coveted Palladium Crown, for finding elusive information!
Now I'll put a few holes in your info, sorry. Your quote is also in the BOM, page 201. Unfortunatly your quote is specifically discussing Ocean Magic. I'm not terribly familiar with that form of magic but I don't beleive that any types of teleport spells are part of it. Interesting enough that Palladium doesn't seem to regard underwater vessels the same as they do other vehicles. This would go back to what I've said in the past, that the term "vehicles" is pretty much up to the individual GM. Also that quote say's "only ranged or area effect spells". This would mean you could cast a fireball, a ranged spell, through a porthole. Does this make sense to anyone else? Especially when the fireball spell states that the fireball goes from the caster to the target. I geuss that portholes in underwater vessels are intangable when it comes to fireballs?? Or if not fireballs then how about Magic Net, as it states that magic net works perfectly well underwater. Does the net just pass through the pressurized porthole by using osmosis??
I deffinatly give Kudo's, and this is deffinatly a mark against what the book rules state. But it also causes more issues to arise than it answers. Sorry.

Not all teleportaton is magical

Absolutly correct. Teleportation could very well be a mutant ability ala Hero's. Though if that was the case I'd still have to ere on the side of caution and go with Sourcebook 1, where it says no "Paranormal powers" can penetrate robots. Though on Hero's Earth there is no such limitation. I firmly believe that Palladium has intentionaly ment to stop teleportation from working through robots, at least in the world of Rifts where Robots are more common, and MDC is a factor. Not only have they not rewritten any teleport spell to make it possible, but they've used the ultimate grammer when stating "NO magic...". Kinda leaves no room for error. Not how I personally play it though. But that's just me.

If Palladium staff are out there....what's your input on this never ending subject? It's obvious that neither Doom nor I will give up unless somthing official is forthcoming. (I know there are those that will say Marcethus's argument is the final answer, but I feel the same about my own arguments)

[Zer0 Kay]

Did anyone ever find any referance that states that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle?? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

"FIRE IN THE HOLE"
That's only Because I have spent over two + weeks reading this damned argument.
*Loads MAC II Cannon*
pg 63 Underseas. Spell casters inside vehicles can only cast spells that work inside the vehicle. Only Ranged and Area effect spells can be cast outside the confines of an underwater vessel, but only if the caster has a window or portal from which he can see his target; line of vision, view screens don't count.
*Fires MAC II Cannon*
Ok while that rule applies to line of sight and underwater vehicles it still blows a hole in your argument that Magic can not penetrate the skin of a vehicle

Hence why teleport can and does work for teleporting into a vehicle or giant robot. the Mages familiarity being the limiting factor only.
*Watches the Can't teleport into vehicle/giant robot arguement sink.

PS I would have posted this sooner had I realized this whole argument was just a bunch of back and forthing instead my warped mind insisted I read every effing page of it.

VERY VERY GOOD!!! I award you the coveted Palladium Crown, for finding elusive information!
Now I'll put a few holes in your info, sorry. Your quote is also in the BOM, page 201. Unfortunatly your quote is specifically discussing Ocean Magic. I'm not terribly familiar with that form of magic but I don't beleive that any types of teleport spells are part of it. Interesting enough that Palladium doesn't seem to regard underwater vessels the same as they do other vehicles. This would go back to what I've said in the past, that the term "vehicles" is pretty much up to the individual GM. Also that quote say's "only ranged or area effect spells". This would mean you could cast a fireball, a ranged spell, through a porthole. Does this make sense to anyone else? Especially when the fireball spell states that the fireball goes from the caster to the target. I geuss that portholes in underwater vessels are intangable when it comes to fireballs?? Or if not fireballs then how about Magic Net, as it states that magic net works perfectly well underwater. Does the net just pass through the pressurized porthole by using osmosis??
I deffinatly give Kudo's, and this is deffinatly a mark against what the book rules state. But it also causes more issues to arise than it answers. Sorry.

Not all teleportaton is magical

Absolutly correct. Teleportation could very well be a mutant ability ala Hero's. Though if that was the case I'd still have to ere on the side of caution and go with Sourcebook 1, where it says no "Paranormal powers" can penetrate robots. Though on Hero's Earth there is no such limitation. I firmly believe that Palladium has intentionaly ment to stop teleportation from working through robots, at least in the world of Rifts where Robots are more common, and MDC is a factor. Not only have they not rewritten any teleport spell to make it possible, but they've used the ultimate grammer when stating "NO magic...". Kinda leaves no room for error. Not how I personally play it though. But that's just me.

If Palladium staff are out there....what's your input on this never ending subject? It's obvious that neither Doom nor I will give up unless somthing official is forthcoming. (I know there are those that will say Marcethus's argument is the final answer, but I feel the same about my own arguments)

OK so which is it you previously stated that Phase powers would work because they are psychic in nature. However psychic powers are Paranormal in nature (Just ask Peter Venkman) . So since it says NO MAGIC then that even includes those that state they can. It is like a test I once took (not real answers or questions)
What is a Mallard?
A. Duck
B. Bird
C. None of the above
D. All of the above
Though a Mallard is both a duck and a bird you can't pick "All of the above" because that also includes "None of the above" which would invalidate the entire answer. I really did have a question like this and they expected us to answer it 'D'. My point is that if it states "NO MAGIC" then that would include Ocean Magic which obviously states otherwise.

Depending on the spell you are absolutely right it would be silly if it could pass through any obstacle. Fireball is not only a LOS and a direct fire but it travels from the caster to the target so it would not be able to pass thorugh intervening obstacles. Teleport, however, which has nothing traveling between the Target and the desired location should be able to. Heck if your going to say that a spell has to in its text say "may be cast at target inside vehicle", or something to that effect, then I can say that no spell may be cast indoors because they don't have the text that the PFRPG call lightning has that says "may be cast indoors".

[Traska]

Oh, most undoubtedly, the spell teleport *is* magic.

But it's not penetrating anything. The whole point of the spell is to go *around* such impediments, through a non-three-dimensional space, instantaneously.

Think of three dimensional objects like flat planes, like a line. It's possible to step over a line without stepping ont he line, because we move in three dimensions. Teleport moves in more than three dimensions, so that three dimensional barrier effectively doesn't exist to it.

[Dr. Doom III]

Although if they had made All of the above answer C. then there would be no problem.

My big hang-up at this point is why some parties think a spell is not magic. Alot of teleporting power discribe the power as 'the same as the spell, teleport.' This whole teleporting is not magical arguement just doesn't hold water. If I use a spell, the effects are caused by magic.

That's not the argument.
The argument is that magic is not "penetrating" anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

Although if they had made All of the above answer C. then there would be no problem.

My big hang-up at this point is why some parties think a spell is not magic. Alot of teleporting power discribe the power as 'the same as the spell, teleport.' This whole teleporting is not magical arguement just doesn't hold water. If I use a spell, the effects are caused by magic.

That's not the argument.
The argument is that magic is not "penetrating" anything.

Yes.
In addition to that, my argument is that if Teleport cannot penetrate vehicles than it must not be able to penetrate much of anything.
If it's "high-tech materials" that are the problem, then a mage can't teleport his way out of a plastic bag (even with air holes). Or into a house, for that matter.
The rules would likely have mentioned it somewhere if a mage has these kind of restrictions when teleporting. Since the rules don't mention it, then they obviously don't have those restrictions, so Teleport is one of the exceptions to the rule.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Good point Traska. It's obviously not moving on the 4th dimension (that would be Temporal) but it could be moving on some sort of other dimensional way. The magic dimensional, maybe?

Or it Still moves anlong a "4th" Dimension, just not the Temporal Diemnsion. It In essance Create Minor "Rifts" between Locations. Making Armor, Vehicles and non-Magical barriers (Protection Circles) unable to stop the Teleprotation Spell. (Arguments makes me like the amount of playtesting and proof-readins Wotc dose for D&D)

[Dr. Doom III]

The spell would move through a zero demension. Thats where everything is one point. Well, everything within the range. But that does not mean the travel is non-magical. Or I guess I should say the landing? Poping back into normal space would be magical. If you pop in on the inside of a robot, you have used a spell to get past the skin. That is a no-no. No spells can get you past the skin.

Nope.
Magic can be cast inside so there would be no interference after the skin of the vehicle was bypassed.

KC, shutup about your stupid cardboard box! that is a bad arguement! You have been going on and on about this thing! Here is what you are doing:
You have used the spirit of what you think a spell says to start your argument.
THEN you turn around and try to use word for word definitions to attack the spirit of a ruling.

Your arguement would be worth noting if you either stuck with word for word text (in which case your arguement is wrong) or argued your opinion of the spirit of the rules. Your playing at the words to try to break the real spirit behind those words.

A vehicle is a vehicle.
There is nothing noting that what it is made of matters.
Even the body armor/power armor rules don't stop magic.
Deal with it.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, shutup about your stupid cardboard box! that is a bad arguement! You have been going on and on about this thing!

No adequate answer has been given.

Here is what you are doing:
You have used the spirit of what you think a spell says to start your argument.
THEN you turn around and try to use word for word definitions to attack the spirit of a ruling.

How so?

Your arguement would be worth noting if you either stuck with word for word text (in which case your arguement is wrong) or argued your opinion of the spirit of the rules. Your playing at the words to try to break the real spirit behind those words.

If you read the word for word text, then this is what the rules are:
-You can teleport into a cardboard box.
-You can't teleport into a carboard box with wheels (or one being used as a sled).

In biblical times, when somone sent a letter, he would explain every part of the letter to the messager. The messanger would even be named as one of the authors of the letter. The messanger would be charged with explaining the contents of the letter to the recipiant so that the intent of the words met with no confusion. That is where the term "don't kill the messanger" came from. I belive that the FAQ in the BOM is our messanger. Spells and magic are defeated by robots. Deal with it.

I have dealt with it.
I'm not the one freaking out here...

[Traska]

Poping back into normal space would be magical. If you pop in on the inside of a robot, you have used a spell to get past the skin. That is a no-no. No spells can get you past the skin.

Sorry, letter of the law says no magic can penetrate the skin. As in, the skin will stop/interfere with any magic that you throw at it. In any event, you're not penetrating jack, you're sidestepping it entirely.

A wall can be made of bulletproof material, but that doesn't stop you from shooting over the wall. You just can't shoot *through* it.

Well, the magic isn't going through the skin, it's going around it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Good point Traska. It's obviously not moving on the 4th dimension (that would be Temporal) but it could be moving on some sort of other dimensional way. The magic dimensional, maybe?

Or it Still moves anlong a "4th" Dimension, just not the Temporal Diemnsion. It In essance Create Minor "Rifts" between Locations. Making Armor, Vehicles and non-Magical barriers (Protection Circles) unable to stop the Teleprotation Spell. (Arguments makes me like the amount of playtesting and proof-readins Wotc dose for D&D)

Gee I'm soo glad WotC/Hasbro does play testing... Oh wait that is right the game and most if not all of it's environments were created while owned by TSR. I hated a recent ad where WotC/Hasbro was claiming creative rights for the entire time period that D&D has been in existance, like it was their creation.

[Zer0 Kay]

Poping back into normal space would be magical. If you pop in on the inside of a robot, you have used a spell to get past the skin. That is a no-no. No spells can get you past the skin.

Sorry, letter of the law says no magic can penetrate the skin. As in, the skin will stop/interfere with any magic that you throw at it. In any event, you're not penetrating jack, you're sidestepping it entirely.

A wall can be made of bulletproof material, but that doesn't stop you from shooting over the wall. You just can't shoot *through* it.

Well, the magic isn't going through the skin, it's going around it.

So since PFRPG has teleport and it doesn't say you can't t-port into a carriage and RT has Mecha (Giant Robots) but doesn't have the no teleporting into giant robot spell rule a mage from PFRPG can teleport into a RT Mecha...Unless that RT Mecha and the PFRPG mage have come into Rifts where the laws of magic suddenly change even though it is supposed to be 100 times more powerful... .

Speaking of, I've always wonderd why is damage the only thing that was magnified not range, not durration, not even a reduction in the amount of PPE required to cast the spell or an increase in the capacity the natives of the planet are capable of channeling since they've been subject to the Super Leylines all thier lives? What do you think guys/gals another post?

[Zer0 Kay]

Ignoring what the books say, I'm looking for opinion. Who allows teleportation into vehicles? Who doesn't? Never mind new post.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Normally I wouldnt Allow it for most Robots, as there is Rarely Room for more then the Pilot, and the Possibility of half you body reapperaing inside a oiece of the Robot is likely.

If the Robot has a Large Interior area (Like the Behemoth Explorer) i could se a Mage(or anyone with that ability) Teleporting inside it just fine.

but that just my Idea.

[Zer0 Kay]

Speaking of, I've always wonderd why is damage the only thing that was magnified not range, not durration, not even a reduction in the amount of PPE required to cast the spell or an increase in the capacity the natives of the planet are capable of channeling since they've been subject to the Super Leylines all thier lives? What do you think guys/gals another post?

Hehehehehe.... see you'd have to assume Palladium actually cared enough to edit the spells in Rifts. The spells, along with the majority of the book, were thrown together in a bad way with little editing or conceptual revising. All they did was go through and change a bunch of spells to do MD and protect from it.

They cared enough to take "can be cast indoors" out of Call Lightning for Rifts.

[Zer0 Kay]

Great... maybe they noticed it because it's one of the few spells they actually wanted to update, since it inflicts MD now.

You CAN teleport into an environmental vehicle!

I think they changed the argument from environmental to MDC skinned because a mage can cast spells from the inside of an environmental building to the outside but not from within a vehicle or giant robot.


My OPINION is that the ruling of magic can't be cast from outside to inside or vise versa stemmed from people in PA, vehicles and Giant Robots (all vehicles) trying to cast fire ball and other point to point attacks from inside the protection of a vehicle. They could have solved the problem by stating in the reprinted spell that x spell is a point-to-point and as such can not have ANY obstacles between the caster and the target. Obviously they (palladium) didn't want to spend that much time rewritting all the spells. Oh well so now we're stuck here with an arguement on a spell that doesn't travel in the same way and who's destination is only a "target" in the casters mind. In essence if your not traveling in this "reality" how can anything on this reality govern your movement. How is it that you can't target the interrior anymore unless you can't for whatever reason mentally visualize the desired location. So remember all this rules lawyering when someone uses a PFRPG mage and since those rules state that it can be cast from inside that it can be cast inside a vehicle to attack somone outside, but not the Rifts mage nope his living in a magic rich environment and has somehow made him or his spells stupid.

[Guest]

well.

if the mage doesnt have a good idea of the shape/size/appearance/structure of the inside of the vehicle, he wouldnt have a chance in hell of appearing in a space large enough for him..

if he was a techno wizard with a boarding device and knowledge of the bot id say sure if he made contact with the bot (as that is dangerous enough to get close to allow him the power of getting inside it)

your average ley line walker who just knows robots as big dangerous things though, no chance...

if hes been in one though, then yeah, id say he could do it with the usual penalties applied to miss, or wind up half in a console applied...


but, there is one loophole that I did NOT see covered anywhere by palladium.

mystic portal.

either you get onto the robot and make 6 or 7 feet of armor phase out (a la the tunnel method) then drop in, or fire in...

or you open the other end of the portal inside a (stationary) bot, and simply shoot the pilots, then hop in, toss their bodies out through a new portal and sell your undamaged bot on the black market, make sure to bring someone with at least RPA: Basic skills though.


had a friend who got very rich doing just that, and I could see no reason why a bot that was standing still and scanning an area or otherwise just immobile (even a CoA would do the trick) would be too hard a target for a portal opening to appear inside the crew cavity and simply waste the crew from the safety of the other side...

heck, as I read the rules, you can't even see the terminus of a mystic portal...


very abuseable spell.

[Temporalmage]

well.

if the mage doesnt have a good idea of the shape/size/appearance/structure of the inside of the vehicle, he wouldnt have a chance in hell of appearing in a space large enough for him..

if he was a techno wizard with a boarding device and knowledge of the bot id say sure if he made contact with the bot (as that is dangerous enough to get close to allow him the power of getting inside it)

your average ley line walker who just knows robots as big dangerous things though, no chance...

if hes been in one though, then yeah, id say he could do it with the usual penalties applied to miss, or wind up half in a console applied...


but, there is one loophole that I did NOT see covered anywhere by palladium.

mystic portal.

either you get onto the robot and make 6 or 7 feet of armor phase out (a la the tunnel method) then drop in, or fire in...

or you open the other end of the portal inside a (stationary) bot, and simply shoot the pilots, then hop in, toss their bodies out through a new portal and sell your undamaged bot on the black market, make sure to bring someone with at least RPA: Basic skills though.


had a friend who got very rich doing just that, and I could see no reason why a bot that was standing still and scanning an area or otherwise just immobile (even a CoA would do the trick) would be too hard a target for a portal opening to appear inside the crew cavity and simply waste the crew from the safety of the other side...

heck, as I read the rules, you can't even see the terminus of a mystic portal...


very abuseable spell.

Very good point!! Also if I remember correctly a spell that is far cheaper to cast than teleport also.

Just curious, but why would a mage ever spend that much PPE to get into a vehicle when there are several ways to get in for a lot less PPE?? Heck a 1st level mage could just walk up to the hatch of any robot and cast Escape on the door. Poof! The door is unlocked and he can just get in all by himself! At a PPE cost 1/100th of teleport!! And there is absolutly no room for argument about doing exactly that, as it doesn't break any game rules in any way.

[Zer0 Kay]

well.

if the mage doesnt have a good idea of the shape/size/appearance/structure of the inside of the vehicle, he wouldnt have a chance in hell of appearing in a space large enough for him..

if he was a techno wizard with a boarding device and knowledge of the bot id say sure if he made contact with the bot (as that is dangerous enough to get close to allow him the power of getting inside it)

your average ley line walker who just knows robots as big dangerous things though, no chance...

if hes been in one though, then yeah, id say he could do it with the usual penalties applied to miss, or wind up half in a console applied...


but, there is one loophole that I did NOT see covered anywhere by palladium.

mystic portal.

either you get onto the robot and make 6 or 7 feet of armor phase out (a la the tunnel method) then drop in, or fire in...

or you open the other end of the portal inside a (stationary) bot, and simply shoot the pilots, then hop in, toss their bodies out through a new portal and sell your undamaged bot on the black market, make sure to bring someone with at least RPA: Basic skills though.


had a friend who got very rich doing just that, and I could see no reason why a bot that was standing still and scanning an area or otherwise just immobile (even a CoA would do the trick) would be too hard a target for a portal opening to appear inside the crew cavity and simply waste the crew from the safety of the other side...

heck, as I read the rules, you can't even see the terminus of a mystic portal...


very abuseable spell.

The armor is not that thick.

[Temporalmage]

Temporal Mage, it doesn't work that way. You can't 'escape' into something. The only time I might ever allow it if there was a tidal wave coming and the only way to escape it was to enter that environmental vehicle.

Now you wish to argue the validity of the Escape spell?? Ok. The spell states that it will work on being tied with rope, handcuffs, prison cells, doors, trunks, locks, straightjackets, etc. When was the last time someone wanted to escape into a trunk?? Sorry but the "door" to a robot is a valid target for an escape spell, at a cost of 8 PPE.

It's probably the name of the spell that is throwing you. As the spell should logically be called "unlock" or somthing similar. But "Unlock" is a spell famous in D&D games, so there would be the problem of copyright infringment. Hence the name of Palladiums version is "Escape".

[Temporalmage]

Temporalmage, I honestly no clue what you're trying to get at with your 'trunk' example. People escape out of trunks if they're tossed into one and it's locked. You can't escape into a trunk.

Didn't even think of it that way. So I'll try again. The spell will open a lock right? Ever see those little diary books with locks on em? According to the spell discription it would work to open the lock on the book. So how does that work into your "Only to escape something" statment? As the spell discription says: "....or open any locking mechanism that bars his way." If the mage wish's to get into a robot, and the locked door "bars" his way. Then he can cast escape on the door to open it up, get inside, and kill the pilot. How does this NOT work in your opinion? Have you even read the spell? The reason I ask is I've never even heard of anyone that wouldn't allow such an aplication of such a simple spell before. Perhaps this is a clue as to why others don't see the simplicity of the rules as they apply to teleporting into robots. It's a matter of having blinders on that won't let them see the obvious.


As for the escape spell there is an "etc" at the bottom of it's list of what it will work on. Basicly anything that is stopping the mage from getting to or at somthing he wants to get at or get to could be a target for the spell. A fileing cabnet isn't large enough for the mage to get into, but the contents could be somthing the mage wish's to see, so the locked drawers are "barring" his way to see those contents.

[Zer0 Kay]

Temporal Mage, it doesn't work that way. You can't 'escape' into something. The only time I might ever allow it if there was a tidal wave coming and the only way to escape it was to enter that environmental vehicle.

Now you wish to argue the validity of the Escape spell?? Ok. The spell states that it will work on being tied with rope, handcuffs, prison cells, doors, trunks, locks, straightjackets, etc. When was the last time someone wanted to escape into a trunk?? Sorry but the "door" to a robot is a valid target for an escape spell, at a cost of 8 PPE.

It's probably the name of the spell that is throwing you. As the spell should logically be called "unlock" or somthing similar. But "Unlock" is a spell famous in D&D games, so there would be the problem of copyright infringment. Hence the name of Palladiums version is "Escape".

Uh it's out of a trunk not into a trunk. You know like Hudini. Unlock is not in D&D it is called knock. They could have called it pick or bang or locknot or crowbar or sledgehammer or bash or tap or hands of the theif or click blah blah blah. But they can't name it KNOCK that is the D&D spell.