This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Zer0 Kay]

Wow, four pages of posts in twenty four hours. I can't keep up with the arguement.

Anyway, the challenge was to make you think about somthing I realised with out me having to say it. I don't think anyone realized it. I got lots of "the planet is moving so there" and "a house is a place and a thing" however only one person had a good answer and I have to give a props to whoever said a landmark. That is a good example. You can use that in a sentence as a place AND a thing.

The point I was trying to make was that obviously we can all twist our English to make the rule say whatever we want it to say. We need the writer to tell us what he ment when he wrote it so we can know for sure what he implied. However, no matter what, KS will say "play how you want to play and have fun."

One of my players skimmed this arguement and he said somthing that struck me. He said "what about Star Trek. They teleport." Now I don't know anything about star trek, but I belive they can stop teleporting with some kind of shield. So, while Star Trek would have vechicle teleportation, it also has shield.

The point is that if magic could teleport things into robots, couldn't they have some sort of counter measure? Has anyone ever read anything that would protect a technological thing from teleportaion, other then the BOM p.21? There are plenty of spells that stop magic, and there are a bunch of tech answers for the super natural. If this is posible, one of the books needs some sort of teleport sheilds. If we can't find that, I think that would lead evidence to teleport being magical transferance of matter, and therefore blocked by robots and the like.

Happy hunting. I'm just going to try to add new ideas when ever I can post, unfortunatly I won't be able to get into it with anyone.

You missed the part that forcefields "shields" do block teleportation so if CS would get off their duff maybe they could get ahold of an Ultimax or whatever the one with the shield is and develop that instead of having to make up a rule...how many years after Rifts Creation?

[Zer0 Kay]

Just in case there was any confusion left over about whether penetrate and bypass meant the same thing, consider the medical term "coronary bypass surgery" which reroutes the flow of blood around a blocked artery. Not many patients would survive a coronary penetration surgery, which implies merely the piercing of the artery.

bypass = avoid, circumvent, sidestep

penetrate = pierce, perforate, puncture.

Don't some vampires get that surgery?

[Killer Cyborg]

i must have ADD or something, because i got way bored of this discussion on page 1.

Um then why did you come back?...oh wait ADD you must have forgotten you were bored of this on page one.

Hey, I DO have ADD and I've been here all along...

[RainOfSteel]

When I approach something, if I "go around", after that is done, I'm on the other side, not on the inside.

Thank you, you have made *precisely* my point.

"On the other side" is not on the inside. As in, not. The "other side" is as equally on the outside as the starting point.

Starting at point A, one walk arounds object B, arriving at point C, one is not inside object B. One is "on the other side" of object B. Otherwise known as outside someplace other than inside of object B, like at the beginning, while still at point A.

When you teleport into a robot, you arrive on the other side of the skin.

The "other side of the skin"? If you walk up to an enclosed room with no windows and but a single door, and the door is locked, and you have no way of unlocking it, how did you "go around" any part of it to get inside? Answer: You didn't, you wound up on the "other side" of the room, still on the outside.

At no time do you go through it at all... you go around it. Again, you have to stop thinking in three-dimensional terms...

I've already addressed this, several times. Nothing I said was even discussed, so, obviously, a better idea hasn't come along yet.

When you teleport, you don't go up or down, forward or back, left or right.

I never said it did.

There is nothing in the BoM p.21 ruling (either strict or my particular house-rule) which indicates that the phrase "magic can't penetrate the skin" doesn't work against all magic. The key phrase is "magic can't". It doesn't say "magic, except for Teleport: Superior, can't". The key operative words are all-inclusive. Exactly why we would assume Teleport: Superior gets some special exception escapes me. Arguing over the definition of penetrate vs. bypass as a way to "bypass" the ruling . . . first someone will have to convince me that the word "penetrate", in this case, under the intent of the author, wasn't meant to cover all cases. Did the author really mean to allow wishy-washiness over "penetrate". Somehow, I doubt it.

You go *there*.

"You" going is only the result of the spell, the magic has to get you there, and it can't ("magic can't").

Now, as to how I'd handle it (you didn't ask me, but here it goes).

If the bot belongs to said teleporter, I'd accept it as "a familiar location" and slap on the 99% success rate.

Well, if we allow teleporting into GR&V, etc., then that doesn't seem unreasonable, although for PA, being small and tight and very difficult to succesfully visualize skin-tight situation, I wouldn't give so high a rate, even if the mage lived in the thing, and not many Rifts magi live in PA.

If it doesn't, but he *has* been inside a similar bot (how many mages have actually been in a Thornhead?), I'd say it falls into "seen a few times before", and give him the 85%. If he had a photo of the cockpit, that's 80%. If he had time to study blueprints, I'd give him the 58%. If he were trying blind, I'd give him the 20%.

For GR&V with room to teleport into, that'd be ok.

I'd give smaller chances for PA or other tight-fitting situations (10-20% less, depending).

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, let's try to go off in a more productive direction.

If we ignore the BoM p.21 ruling . . . .

How do you handle things? Do you really experience no problems as a result of this?

I've had no problems arise from ignoring that particular rule (that magic cannot penetrate robots/vehicles).

What sort of things would I need to handle? Give me examples, and I'll tell you how I'd handle them.

What about all the examples I’ve already given? Just cover those.

My material above, quoted without attribution . . . again.

I assumed that you'd know who it was.
And you did.

Um. Well, you’ve got 6300+ posts here, so I feel silly having to say the following, but here goes:

Well, yes. There was never a question as to whether I recognized it or not. But other people reading through tons of posts among unfamiliar names flying left and right, they can get confused. Material written by one person may be mistaken for material written by another, leading to problems, such as posts that address some of the material, but are written as if someone else wrote that material, the wrong people get accused of doing things they didn't.

Proper Quoting and Attribution are the means that allow other people to follow the discussion. Especially when they quit reading for a couple of days, or weeks, or months.

[PigLickJF]

When I approach something, if I "go around", after that is done, I'm on the other side, not on the inside.

Thank you, you have made *precisely* my point.

"On the other side" is not on the inside. As in, not. The "other side" is as equally on the outside as the starting point.

Starting at point A, one walk arounds object B, arriving at point C, one is not inside object B. One is "on the other side" of object B. Otherwise known as outside someplace other than inside of object B, like at the beginning, while still at point A.

You're too narrowly defining the phrase "other side," or at least applying it to the wrong "object." In the case mentioned, the object would be "the skin of the vehicle," not the entire vehicle. If I say "the ball is on the other side of the house," you're correct, most people would assume that the ball was outside of the house, on the opposite side from you. If, however, I said "the ball is on the other side of the wall," I seriously doubt anyone would think I was referring to anyplace but the interior of the house.

When you teleport into a robot, you arrive on the other side of the skin.

The "other side of the skin"? If you walk up to an enclosed room with no windows and but a single door, and the door is locked, and you have no way of unlocking it, how did you "go around" any part of it to get inside? Answer: You didn't, you wound up on the "other side" of the room, still on the outside.

Sounds like your problem may be that your trying to think of this as a real-world, 3-dimensional problem. In your example, in the real world, you're correct, the only way to get "around" the wall is by literally walking outside the perimeter of it and ending up on the other side of the structure. Teleportation, by it's very nature, is not bound by those limitations. It gets "around" the wall in some unexplained way that obviously supercedes/circumvents/ignores any objects or barriers which happen to be in the intervening space in our normal 3-dimensional world.

When you teleport, you don't go up or down, forward or back, left or right.

I never said it did.

There is nothing in the BoM p.21 ruling (either strict or my particular house-rule) which indicates that the phrase "magic can't penetrate the skin" doesn't work against all magic. The key phrase is "magic can't". It doesn't say "magic, except for Teleport: Superior, can't". The key operative words are all-inclusive. Exactly why we would assume Teleport: Superior gets some special exception escapes me. Arguing over the definition of penetrate vs. bypass as a way to "bypass" the ruling . . . first someone will have to convince me that the word "penetrate", in this case, under the intent of the author, wasn't meant to cover all cases. Did the author really mean to allow wishy-washiness over "penetrate". Somehow, I doubt it.

I don't remember the exact examples, but at some point earlier in this thread there has been mention of several spells which do expressly "break" the "magic can't penetrate" rule. The rule is obviously therefore not all-encompassing. Of course, you could (and perhaps will) use TemporalImage's argument that all of those spells specifically state that they can do so, whereas teleport does not. However, both of those argument still hinge on whether or not the destination of a teleport is truly a "target" of the spell magic or not, which is not clearly defined in the spell descriptions and which I believe still has room to be argued either way.

PigLick

(Man, can't believe I re-entered this argument. What is it about this particular one that draws you in so?)

[Colonel Wolfe]

hmm penetrate and Bypassing? the Same thing?

I'm goin to my neighbors house... and he has a Little wooden fence in his front yard... it covers about 70% of the lenght of his house... mainly for decoration.
I could penetrate his fence... by running full speed into it, and Destrying it, and then he sues me for Damages to his property...

or i by-pass it... by going around the Fence on either end... ignoring the Fence entierly... and not getting sued.

so... if a Spell can by-pass the Armor, is dosent have to Penetrate it... Which i think a Teleport spell could do.(as well as Sea Magic aprently)

[RainOfSteel]

Apparently the fact that penetrate and bypass mean exactly the same thing here doesn't mean anything to you.

They don't mean exactly the same thing. If someone shoots at you, would you rather have the bullet penetrate you, or bypass you?

If the bullet bypassed me, it would be outside of me. Which, of course, would be my preference.

If Teleport: Superior "bypasses" the "skin" of a GR & V in the same manner as the bullet above "bypasses" me, then it too would still be on the outside of a GR or V.

And this is a change from how bypass was being used before. Previously, bypass was being used to describe "getting inside", which is a form of penetration. Now it seems to be used to describe, "going around".

Fortunately, bypass is a flexible word, and can, by context, be used to cover both situations.

Penetration implies direct interaction.

Teleportation is bypassing, it's just hard to imagine because it bypasses in a manner in which we have no experience in the real world in that it pays no mind to directionality, orientation, space, or time.

PigLick

Ok, bypass can either be used to mean, "go around", or "penetrate", which one will we go with? If we use "go around", we are, as the examples above give us, still on the outside. If we go with "pentrate", the BoM p.21 ruling clearly tells us we can't.

As for Teleport: Superior not interacting with the "skin of the GR & V" because Teleport: Superior does some multi-dimensional tap-dancing, I covered earlier my thoughts on why I though the "skin" defended successfully against this tap-dancing.


As an aside: Might the BoM p.21 ruling have gone better if there had been a superscripted 1 after the word penetrate, and below, as a footnote, the following appeared:

. . . magic can't penetrate(1) the skin of a giant robot, or vehicle

(1)Also: bypass, go around, avoid, fool, sneak past, etc.

[Dr. Doom III]

As an aside: Might the BoM p.21 ruling have gone better if there had been a superscripted 1 after the word penetrate, and below, as a footnote, the following appeared:

. . . magic can't penetrate(1) the skin of a giant robot, or vehicle

(1)Also: bypass, go around, avoid, fool, sneak past, etc.

If it was actually meant to block something like teleport yes it would have.
It isn't.

[RainOfSteel]

So if you get into a dimensional pocket that happens to later have it's exit in the exact same space as a robots cockpit why wouldn't you be able to get out of it?

Like a bag of holding getting carried into the bot? The "exit/entrance" to the bag, which is the locus of the magic, got inside of the robot through an open hatch. Now that would be a form of "bypassing", as some have discussed. The hatch is open, in goes the trap/dimensional pocket.

I'd like to say something now about the GR or V being sealed or not sealed (because I view that as necessary to the whole BoM p.21 ruling), but, apparently, as that's way off into my house-rules, I'll have to avoid it.

Or does the air inside the robot cork the doorway from the pocket dimension?

Not the way I work BoM p.21. If the hatch is open, you have access, and magic can get in. (Note: Yup, that's my house-rule, there.)

so it doesn't pennatrate the skinn.

Ok, the sticking point here is that you view that "magic" must actually physically conduct Newtonian movement through Einsteinian space into the GR or V to qualify under the BoM p.21 ruling for "penetration".

I, however, view any access by whatever means, multi-dimensional, one-dimensional, non-existant, super-duper special king-size burger method, all of it, if it gets inside the skin of the GR or V, I will call it penetration.

[RainOfSteel]

Ok smart @$$ I meant Teleport: Superior, damn and I probably just misspelled superior...and am too impatient like everyone else to use the spellcheck.

"Smart-@ss, that's me!"(C)(R)(TM)

[RainOfSteel]

Argh, why do you keep using just Teleport: superior? There is DT-Port which I think costs more and

Becasue D.T. only works between dimensions. There didn't seem to be a way to get it to aim (no visualization involved; mandatory random destination with one exception) at a GR or V without that GR or V being the mage's sanctuary (and let's be honest, we're trying to commando raid the GR or V in question here, or we are, most of the time; porting back to your own GR or V would be useful, but not nearly as useful as porting into someone else GR or V). The success rate isn't good (to me), although failing is harmless except for blowing 800 PPE. You have to get into some "other" dimension first before trying to d-port back into a GR or V in the dimension you happen to inhabit most of the time. All in all, pretty useless for this particlar purpose.

...Teleport: lesser which is more likely to be abused by teleporting fusion blocks into any vehicle or yourself.

That's one of the game-balance reasons for not allowing teleporting into GR or V.

I could have sworn the topic did not specify Teleport : superior

No, it didn't, it just seems to be the only mainline spell that'll get the job done as far as people go, and we keep talking about "mage", etc., so Teleport: Lesser is out because it doesn't work on living substances. (Yes, I admit it, I haven't read evey spell in the BoM; so yes, there may be an official spell out there that does a better job.)

[RainOfSteel]

Except that the armor has no "door" to "open", unless the armor is breached or the hatch is open . . . hey, that dovetails nicely. Open door = Breached Armor. Fits in perfectly with what I was already saying. (And no, Escape can't open GR&V hatches.)

Does too (refering to escape)

Oh and I think you should go through and recredit the quotes I don't remember writing this...at least whoever did uses different tone than I do...I don't know might be one of my other personalities or maybe you just like picking on me even when I didn't write it.

Nope not me all Traska what happened ROS?

It was Traska. A copying and pasting error on my part. And no, I wasn't making an example of myself, either, though it does tend to prove my point.

I have corrected the error on that post.

[RainOfSteel]

A very nice invented explanation. You state, "The very nature of Teleport," but you do not provide anything to back this up, especially when Teleport: Lesser states otherwise. Where, anywhere in the rules, anything at all, is there a mention about the nature of teleportation? Page number? Anything?

Just common knowledge. At least I thought it was common.

Well, that doesn't qualify as a cite to defend your position.

[Traska]

Let's try this again.

Teleport does not require LOS to work, I think we can agree on that, yes? (Otherwise, allowing a range of 300 miles per level is ludicrous. I can't see 300 miles, can you?). Given that, I think we can safely say there is no magic beam or trail needed.

Now, given that, we have to assume it does not adhere to three-dimensional laws... indeed, scientists are currently at a loss as to how we're going to create real-world teleportation without shortcuts like wormholes... but I digress.

Think of that windowless doorless room again. Perfectly impenetrable to you or me. Now, though, picture it without the roof. You're still not going through the wall, you're bypassing it by going over. Over, however, is a three-dimensional term. Let's just say you're going where the wall isn't.

That's how teleport works. A completely sealed room has space inside, and that's the route teleport uses to work. It doesn't matter one iota what surrounds the empty space... because teleport isn't bothering with that.

Here's another analogy. Picture a room as you see it on TV. It looks solid enough. But if you pan out, to where the cameras are, you'll see that there's a way in that doesn't involve the windows and doors. An imprecise analogy, but no precise analogy that we can use works, because teleport works in a completely foreign way, something we cannot experience. Trying to explain teleportation using three-dimensional terms is like trying to explain the depth of a square. A cube has depth, a square has height and width.

You talk about being on the other side of the skin as still being outside. No, that's the other side of the robot. The other side of the skin is inside the robot. They're not solid, like chocolate Easter Bunnies. They're hollow, like a balloon.

If you have a jar closeby, I invite you to take this test. Pick up the jar, and look at it. I mean, really look at it. Now, ask youself... where is the other side of the lid? Is it inside the jar, or is it the bottom of the jar? It's inside the jar, of course. And the other side of the hull (or skin) of the robot is the inside of said robot, unless that robot is solid. And robots and vehicles aren't solid, they're hollow... that's where a pilot sits.

[Traska]

One more thing. You say that no magc can penetrate the skin of a robot, and that's why teleport doesn't work, and that's all-inclusive because it's not qualified. Okay...

Mystic Portal (a spell costing 60 PPE) allows a mage to create a passage in any substance. That's any substance, period. Also unquailified, therefore also all-inclusive.

Now, that means one of the two spells is worded incorrectly, according to you. However, if a Mystic Portal *bypasses* the space the passage it's opened in, then both spells are worded correctly, and there's no paradox.

And one would think that Teleport: Superior, which costs ten times more PPE, would function as well as Mystic Portal, no?

[Colonel Wolfe]

They're not solid, like chocolate Easter Bunnies.

Man, my chocolate Easter Bunnies were always hollow. Apparently I got ripped off!

i think alot of us did...

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, let's try to go off in a more productive direction.

If we ignore the BoM p.21 ruling . . . .

How do you handle things? Do you really experience no problems as a result of this?

I've had no problems arise from ignoring that particular rule (that magic cannot penetrate robots/vehicles).

What sort of things would I need to handle? Give me examples, and I'll tell you how I'd handle them.

What about all the examples I’ve already given? Just cover those.

???

My material above, quoted without attribution . . . again.

I assumed that you'd know who it was.
And you did.

Um. Well, you’ve got 6300+ posts here, so I feel silly having to say the following, but here goes:

Well, yes. There was never a question as to whether I recognized it or not. But other people reading through tons of posts among unfamiliar names flying left and right, they can get confused. Material written by one person may be mistaken for material written by another, leading to problems, such as posts that address some of the material, but are written as if someone else wrote that material, the wrong people get accused of doing things they didn't.

Since I was only quoting YOU, and most of the quotes were attributed to you, why would anybody think I suddenly switched who I was responding to?
Notice that you're the only person here who's making a fuss, or is getting confused about things. Everybody else is following along just fine.

Proper Quoting and Attribution are the means that allow other people to follow the discussion. Especially when they quit reading for a couple of days, or weeks, or months.

It is general practice that when you ascribe a quote to a person at the start of a post and later have more quotes that are not specifically ascribed to anybody (no "Previously posted by _________"), then it can be assumed that you are still quoting the same person that you were before.
Most people operate this way.
Get over yourself and get back on topic.

[Killer Cyborg]

Doom and others argue that common sense dictates that the teleport spell IS an exception because of the nature of the spell. For example, what happens when you teleport an MDC car? Does the driver go along? Or the steering wheel? If Magic cannot penetrate the armoured skin, then I guess not. Does that make sense? And we'll see what people think about my flooper example.

1. Yeah, TM hasn't been seen much around here since I brought up the bit about teleporting the vehicle from around the pilot... Nobody's really given a decent response to it.
2. I like your Flooper example. It is well thought out and pretty solid.
3. I agree that it's logical enough to say that Teleporatation doesn't work strictly within the 3 Dimensions that we are used to dealing with (4 dimensions, if you include time).

Which brings me to another analogy showing how it is possible to teleport into a vehicle without penetration.
-Take a pencil and a piece of scratch paper. Draw a circle on the piece of paper. Then pretend your two fingers are a person and stand them outside of the circle.
-Next, have your fingers step over the circle and stand in the middle.

Presto! They are now inside the circle without penetrating the circle. How? Because they moved through a dimension that the barrier (the circle) didn't run through).
(And before anybody gets into it... No, this is NOT an example of Dimensional Teleportation. The word "Dimension" is being used differently here. You can't use Dimensional Teleport to teleport into the 2nd dimension, and the Dimensional Teleport spell has nothing to do with this conversation.)

Or, you can look at things like this:
-Draw a circle on a piece of paper.
-Draw a stick figure on the same piece of paper, outside the circle.
-Erase the stick figure and redraw it exactly, only standing inside of the circle.

Presto! It is now inside the circle, but it never penetrated the circle!
Magic!

[Guest]

the stick man is it.

Teleport could be argued as moving your through hyperspace even, you are going through the 5th, or 6th, or 9th dimension if you will...but the end point of your path has no clear connection with your origin.

[PigLickJF]

1. Yeah, TM hasn't been seen much around here since I brought up the bit about teleporting the vehicle from around the pilot... Nobody's really given a decent response to it.

Ah so it was you, KC, who developed this argument. Sorry, I have read through the entire 74 pages of posts on this topic, but I couldn't remember exactly who said what. I will attribute this argument to you from now on

I have been waiting for someone to counter this argument but so far I haven't heard much. I'll give it a try. The weakness of this argument is that it has only to do with the act of teleporting space enclosed by MDC, not on the act of arriving in space enclosed in MDC. The principles may not be connected.

Well, the argument has more to with whether or not magic can penetrate the skin. If magic cannot penetrate the skin, then the robot would be teleported, but the pilot (and any other contents) would not. So while you've defended your belief that magic absolutely cannot "penetrate" the skin no matter what, you've just made teleport an even more potent tool in many ways (and, since everyone agrees balance is the only logical reason to not allow teleportation into robots, you're sort of shooting yourself in the foot there).

If you disagree with that and say that the pilot and contents would travel along with the robot, then you are basically admitting that the magic has indeed penetrated the skin, else the pilot would not be teleported. If that's true, there would be no problem with teleporting into the robot.

The only real counterargument to this line of reasoning would be to say that somehow the pilot and contents of a robot are "part" of the robot and therefore travel with it, but I think anyone can see that is a tenuous argument at best which really doesn't make a lot of sense and probably opens up many other cans of worms besides.

PigLick

[Zer0 Kay]

i must have ADD or something, because i got way bored of this discussion on page 1.

Um then why did you come back?...oh wait ADD you must have forgotten you were bored of this on page one.

Hey, I DO have ADD and I've been here all along...

I haven't been diagnosed, god forbid since I'm military and for some reason they don't like it , but my wife and other family members swear I have it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ok, let's try to go off in a more productive direction.

If we ignore the BoM p.21 ruling . . . .

How do you handle things? Do you really experience no problems as a result of this?

I've had no problems arise from ignoring that particular rule (that magic cannot penetrate robots/vehicles).

What sort of things would I need to handle? Give me examples, and I'll tell you how I'd handle them.

What about all the examples I’ve already given? Just cover those.

My material above, quoted without attribution . . . again.

I assumed that you'd know who it was.
And you did.

Um. Well, you’ve got 6300+ posts here, so I feel silly having to say the following, but here goes:

Well, yes. There was never a question as to whether I recognized it or not. But other people reading through tons of posts among unfamiliar names flying left and right, they can get confused. Material written by one person may be mistaken for material written by another, leading to problems, such as posts that address some of the material, but are written as if someone else wrote that material, the wrong people get accused of doing things they didn't.

Proper Quoting and Attribution are the means that allow other people to follow the discussion. Especially when they quit reading for a couple of days, or weeks, or months.

Less people are confused by Dooms posts than by your single post where you start to quote Traska then give me credit for the rest of them even though it was still Traska's. We could always hold a poll on another topic lets see how about "Who Understands?" Poll: Q. In the uberlong t-port topic who's post do you understand better?
1. Doom
2. Rain of Steel
3. God do we have to talk about the cursed thread?

[Zer0 Kay]

hmm penetrate and Bypassing? the Same thing?

I'm goin to my neighbors house... and he has a Little wooden fence in his front yard... it covers about 70% of the lenght of his house... mainly for decoration.
I could penetrate his fence... by running full speed into it, and Destrying it, and then he sues me for Damages to his property...

or i by-pass it... by going around the Fence on either end... ignoring the Fence entierly... and not getting sued.

so... if a Spell can by-pass the Armor, is dosent have to Penetrate it... Which i think a Teleport spell could do.(as well as Sea Magic aprently)

Ew, Ew or you could bypass it by jumping over it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Apparently the fact that penetrate and bypass mean exactly the same thing here doesn't mean anything to you.

They don't mean exactly the same thing. If someone shoots at you, would you rather have the bullet penetrate you, or bypass you?

If the bullet bypassed me, it would be outside of me. Which, of course, would be my preference.

If Teleport: Superior "bypasses" the "skin" of a GR & V in the same manner as the bullet above "bypasses" me, then it too would still be on the outside of a GR or V.

And this is a change from how bypass was being used before. Previously, bypass was being used to describe "getting inside", which is a form of penetration. Now it seems to be used to describe, "going around".

Fortunately, bypass is a flexible word, and can, by context, be used to cover both situations.

Penetration implies direct interaction.

Teleportation is bypassing, it's just hard to imagine because it bypasses in a manner in which we have no experience in the real world in that it pays no mind to directionality, orientation, space, or time.

PigLick

Ok, bypass can either be used to mean, "go around", or "penetrate", which one will we go with? If we use "go around", we are, as the examples above give us, still on the outside. If we go with "pentrate", the BoM p.21 ruling clearly tells us we can't.

As for Teleport: Superior not interacting with the "skin of the GR & V" because Teleport: Superior does some multi-dimensional tap-dancing, I covered earlier my thoughts on why I though the "skin" defended successfully against this tap-dancing.


As an aside: Might the BoM p.21 ruling have gone better if there had been a superscripted 1 after the word penetrate, and below, as a footnote, the following appeared:

. . . magic can't penetrate(1) the skin of a giant robot, or vehicle

(1)Also: bypass, go around, avoid, fool, sneak past, etc.

I like how you switch are you sure you weren't the last President hopefull? First your Bypass and Penetrate are the same now your Bypass means go around so I'll use that against them by taking it literally. It also means http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=bypass some of which can be defined as finding another way, which does not necessarily mean going around. A motorcycle can bypass traffic by driving down the center line. It's not going around and it still gets to it's location. Oh and penetrate is no where in there as a synonym or a synonym for any of it's synonyms nor is bypass in penetrate's see http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=penetrate. Funny how that works. Here an easy so you don't have to read every synonym, press Ctrl + F then type in the word your searching for...isn't technology amazing.

[Zer0 Kay]

So if you get into a dimensional pocket that happens to later have it's exit in the exact same space as a robots cockpit why wouldn't you be able to get out of it?

Like a bag of holding getting carried into the bot? The "exit/entrance" to the bag, which is the locus of the magic, got inside of the robot through an open hatch. Now that would be a form of "bypassing", as some have discussed. The hatch is open, in goes the trap/dimensional pocket.

I'd like to say something now about the GR or V being sealed or not sealed (because I view that as necessary to the whole BoM p.21 ruling), but, apparently, as that's way off into my house-rules, I'll have to avoid it.

Or does the air inside the robot cork the doorway from the pocket dimension?

Not the way I work BoM p.21. If the hatch is open, you have access, and magic can get in. (Note: Yup, that's my house-rule, there.)

so it doesn't pennatrate the skinn.

Ok, the sticking point here is that you view that "magic" must actually physically conduct Newtonian movement through Einsteinian space into the GR or V to qualify under the BoM p.21 ruling for "penetration".

I, however, view any access by whatever means, multi-dimensional, one-dimensional, non-existant, super-duper special king-size burger method, all of it, if it gets inside the skin of the GR or V, I will call it penetration.

Let me try to make this clearer... there are spells that allow the creation of a pocket dimension into which a person can enter and wait. If that pocket dimension was created at the same height as the cockpit of a...Spider Skull Walker and when that SSW was at the exact spot the person opened it. Now with this said apply it to the argument you just hacked here. The robot never opens its door so does it push aside the otherwise completely unmoveable dimensional doorway? If not what keeps it from opening inside? If it is indeed unmovable and magic can indeed not pass through the skinn of any vehicle, if it is cast inside the vehicle is that vehicle forever trapped in that location because it can't get the doorway (which can't be moved) out of the vehicle? Or if while the doorway is closed it doesn't exist and therefore doesn't effect the skinn of the vehicle then T-port should be allowed, however at the same time if this is true and the person does come out in the vehicle and leave the door open is the vehicle again trapped because the magic can't pass through the skinn while it is actively in this existance? Even better since the books say that the opening can't be moved and you argue that a teleporter even when not in this existance can't get into the vehicle because he can't "pass" through the skinn then Tolkien should have won the war... . That's right forget the shield just have a bunch of mages make these pocket dimensions as a wall. No vehicles could pass through it that would include missiles, bullets any solid material that conveys something even itself from one location to another...even people since our legs convey us. But the mages could get through because for them when the door is closed it does not exist.

Hmm.

[Zer0 Kay]

Argh, why do you keep using just Teleport: superior? There is DT-Port which I think costs more and

Becasue D.T. only works between dimensions. There didn't seem to be a way to get it to aim (no visualization involved; mandatory random destination with one exception) at a GR or V without that GR or V being the mage's sanctuary (and let's be honest, we're trying to commando raid the GR or V in question here, or we are, most of the time; porting back to your own GR or V would be useful, but not nearly as useful as porting into someone else GR or V). The success rate isn't good (to me), although failing is harmless except for blowing 800 PPE. You have to get into some "other" dimension first before trying to d-port back into a GR or V in the dimension you happen to inhabit most of the time. All in all, pretty useless for this particlar purpose.

...Teleport: lesser which is more likely to be abused by teleporting fusion blocks into any vehicle or yourself.

That's one of the game-balance reasons for not allowing teleporting into GR or V.

I could have sworn the topic did not specify Teleport : superior

No, it didn't, it just seems to be the only mainline spell that'll get the job done as far as people go, and we keep talking about "mage", etc., so Teleport: Lesser. (Yes, I admit it, I haven't read evey spell in the BoM; so yes, there may be an official spell out there that does a better job.)

Argh I like how you still avoid Teleport: lesser as the one the mage would be using to get into a vehicle. If a mage has to use T-port superior to get into a vehicle that far away then yes he's stupid. Not for using T-port superior but for parking his vehicle that far away and walking.

[Zer0 Kay]

Except that the armor has no "door" to "open", unless the armor is breached or the hatch is open . . . hey, that dovetails nicely. Open door = Breached Armor. Fits in perfectly with what I was already saying. (And no, Escape can't open GR&V hatches.)

Does too (refering to escape)

Oh and I think you should go through and recredit the quotes I don't remember writing this...at least whoever did uses different tone than I do...I don't know might be one of my other personalities or maybe you just like picking on me even when I didn't write it.

Nope not me all Traska what happened ROS?

It was Traska. A copying and pasting error on my part. And no, I wasn't making an example of myself, either, though it does tend to prove my point.

I have corrected the error on that post.

No it doesn't prove your point if you would have left Traska as the quote on the first one everyone would have understood that the rest of the quotes ment him. Only changing quotes when the quotee changes. Or like I do give each quotee a different post. It is not to increase my post count it's to give clarity to the readers and respect to the quotee.

[Zer0 Kay]

I, however, view any access by whatever means, multi-dimensional, one-dimensional, non-existant, super-duper special king-size burger method, all of it, if it gets inside the skin of the GR or V, I will call it penetration.

Consider this situtation:

There is a flooper (from WB1) standing on a crate. Ten feet away from an MDC cargo van with an empty bay. The flooper floops into his cozy pocket dimension. Then the van drives forward, knocking over the crate, and positions itself so that the empty space in the van's bay is exactly where the flooper flooped. At this point, the flooper unfloops. Does he appear inside the van?

I would argue yes, he does. His flooping magic acts directly on the space that he flooped out of. When the cargo van backed up, it merely surrounded this space with MDC material. When the flooper reappears, there is no need to penetrate the MDC skin. If you argue that yes, there is a need to penetrate the material, then which side of the van is being penetrated? The roof? Does that mean the flooper's dimension is above the van? How about the side walls? Does that mean the floopers dimension is beside the van?

Likewise, when the van backs over the spot where the flooper flooped, there is no penetration going on either. The flooper did not leave behind a magic portal or gate to be pushed aside like the crate.

Everyone, please check for me that a flooper's teleport is indeed magical (I don't have my books with me, nor will I for 3 weeks). If it is not, then this example will not directly apply. However, it still serves as a model of how many people on the boards think the teleport spell works and why they do not believe it "penetrates" anything.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make with the post ROS cut up and made no sense of. Dragons and temporal wizards also have the capability to create dimensional pockets and as far as I know temporal magic is uh...magic and dragons are the embodiment of magic so that ability is probably uh...humuhumunukunukuapuaa (real word thought it is probably misspelled...not enough letters ) no I meant magic.

[Zer0 Kay]

Doesn't all this verbal thrust and parry nitpicking ever get under your skin? I'm an ass about the rules... but some of you folks are psychotic and take denial to whole new stages of development.

I commend you.

Don't make me keel you, I am not a Zealot

[Zer0 Kay]

One more thing. You say that no magc can penetrate the skin of a robot, and that's why teleport doesn't work, and that's all-inclusive because it's not qualified. Okay...

Mystic Portal (a spell costing 60 PPE) allows a mage to create a passage in any substance. That's any substance, period. Also unquailified, therefore also all-inclusive.

Now, that means one of the two spells is worded incorrectly, according to you. However, if a Mystic Portal *bypasses* the space the passage it's opened in, then both spells are worded correctly, and there's no paradox.

And one would think that Teleport: Superior, which costs ten times more PPE, would function as well as Mystic Portal, no?

Temporal Image already discussed this spell. It is an exception to the "magic cannot penetrate GR&V" rule, as its description specifies as much. He argued that since teleport (s or l) does not make clear whether it is an exception or not, it is not an exception. This was way back when the pages numbered in the thirties or so.

On the other hand, Doom and others argue that common sense dictates that the teleport spell IS an exception because of the nature of the spell. For example, what happens when you teleport an MDC car? Does the driver go along? Or the steering wheel? If Magic cannot penetrate the armoured skin, then I guess not. Does that make sense? And we'll see what people think about my flooper example.

I beleive the teleported car without the driver is the result of another part of the rule that states that the crew or equipment inside the vehicle may not be effected by magic cast from outside the vehicle. Not specifically the part that states that magic can't penetrate the skinn.

[Zer0 Kay]

They're not solid, like chocolate Easter Bunnies.

Man, my chocolate Easter Bunnies were always hollow. Apparently I got ripped off!

they make solid easter bunnies...all mine must have had the innards t-ported out.

[Zer0 Kay]

Doom and others argue that common sense dictates that the teleport spell IS an exception because of the nature of the spell. For example, what happens when you teleport an MDC car? Does the driver go along? Or the steering wheel? If Magic cannot penetrate the armoured skin, then I guess not. Does that make sense? And we'll see what people think about my flooper example.

1. Yeah, TM hasn't been seen much around here since I brought up the bit about teleporting the vehicle from around the pilot... Nobody's really given a decent response to it.
2. I like your Flooper example. It is well thought out and pretty solid.
3. I agree that it's logical enough to say that Teleporatation doesn't work strictly within the 3 Dimensions that we are used to dealing with (4 dimensions, if you include time).

Which brings me to another analogy showing how it is possible to teleport into a vehicle without penetration.
-Take a pencil and a piece of scratch paper. Draw a circle on the piece of paper. Then pretend your two fingers are a person and stand them outside of the circle.
-Next, have your fingers step over the circle and stand in the middle.

Presto! They are now inside the circle without penetrating the circle. How? Because they moved through a dimension that the barrier (the circle) didn't run through).
(And before anybody gets into it... No, this is NOT an example of Dimensional Teleportation. The word "Dimension" is being used differently here. You can't use Dimensional Teleport to teleport into the 2nd dimension, and the Dimensional Teleport spell has nothing to do with this conversation.)

Or, you can look at things like this:
-Draw a circle on a piece of paper.
-Draw a stick figure on the same piece of paper, outside the circle.
-Erase the stick figure and redraw it exactly, only standing inside of the circle.

Presto! It is now inside the circle, but it never penetrated the circle!
Magic!

Hey! You like his flooper example but you don't like my similarly but more confusing post about the pocket dimension?

Oh here is another one

- same pice of paper with a circle and a stick man drawn on it.
-hold it up to a light.
-fold paper so that stick man appears inside circle.
demonstrates both teleporting without penetrating the shell and folding of space.

[Zer0 Kay]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Give him a break Doom he is only 2 dimensional of course.

Would that make him
Shallow
Thin or
Short?

[Zer0 Kay]

Oh... and all this game ballance BS is a joke. Before all mages were capable of teleporting into a vehicle untiil the BoM and GMG came out. A more realistic "game ballance" would be for the R&D department of the CS to descover that force fields captured from Naruni or Triax's one GB block T-port. So now all of their vehicles have a low powered forcefield for that specific reason. Maybe even have it on the inside rather than the outside since they only mean for it to keep out t-porters or items being t-ported and not to soak up damage.

That would be good game ballance and story telling. Even if they want to make the CS not use Naruni fields they could still use the ones on the Triax bot that are sold in Northa America. I mean they don't even have to steal the technology they could just purchase one of the comercial units. Funny how none of the other NGR stuff has forcefields though. Hmm Inconsistancies and Palladium...is that like peanut butter and jelly or what?

[Zer0 Kay]

I have read through all 76 pages of this post, and I have finally come up with the ultimate, definitive answer:

Yes.

You're welcome.

You really read through all 76 posts or you just saying it to try to stop the THREAD THAT NEVER ENDS?

[Zer0 Kay]

Force Fields. OK, I'm game. I'm feeling this Teleport thing now. I might not let some one t-port into a cockpit, but if there is a sub with an empty loading bay for t-porting, I don't see why not. However, I would like to know where a bunch of hippie mages found a sub. Just kidding.
Anyway, as long as someone made a couter for it, it must be a threat.

Hippie mages? Do they use flower magic, Herbalism or Pipe magic?

I guess they could have Hooka (sp?) magic too

I summon The Gonja Golem (Scary Movie 2)

[Zer0 Kay]

Force Fields. OK, I'm game. I'm feeling this Teleport thing now. I might not let some one t-port into a cockpit, but if there is a sub with an empty loading bay for t-porting, I don't see why not. However, I would like to know where a bunch of hippie mages found a sub. Just kidding.
Anyway, as long as someone made a couter for it, it must be a threat.

Seriously though I didn't reall understand your post its, uh confusing. Your game how?
What do you mean?
Your last sentence what do you mean?

They have never really used forcefields for that specific reason it was just a side effect. I'm just saying that if too many mages started using t-port in that way then the CS should have made a counter too it instead of having to rewrite or redefine the rules that had been good for... how long was it between Rifts release and the BoM and GMG.

I would have found it more interesting if through x years of playing KS instead of saying oh the rules have changed, says because of the problems the CS was having with mages teleporting into their craft they have developed forcefield technology which they found stops the effect (in actuallity they didn't develop it they reversed engenieered it from Triax's comercial GR that has the forcefield or from captured Naruni equipment). That would be interesting and I'm sure less people would dissagree over it.

I somewhat agree with your no cockpit. If a mage is going to teleport into a enclosed area or an area that has moving components (includes people) then there should be a horrendous modifier. Sure the mage can visualize the target but how does he know a person isn't where he's going to be? Unless a space is set aside as a teleport safe location that is completely empty and never changed. Maybe the teleport room would have numbers or symbols on the walls so that the mage could remember those in order to determine which one out of a fleet he'd go to.

[Zer0 Kay]

Force Fields. OK, I'm game. I'm feeling this Teleport thing now. I might not let some one t-port into a cockpit, but if there is a sub with an empty loading bay for t-porting, I don't see why not. However, I would like to know where a bunch of hippie mages found a sub. Just kidding.
Anyway, as long as someone made a couter for it, it must be a threat.

Seriously though I didn't reall understand your post its, uh confusing. Your game how?
What do you mean?
Your last sentence what do you mean?

They have never really used forcefields for that specific reason it was just a side effect. I'm just saying that if too many mages started using t-port in that way then the CS should have made a counter too it instead of having to rewrite or redefine the rules that had been good for... how long was it between Rifts release and the BoM and GMG.

I would have found it more interesting if through x years of playing KS instead of saying oh the rules have changed, says because of the problems the CS was having with mages teleporting into their craft they have developed forcefield technology which they found stops the effect (in actuallity they didn't develop it they reversed engenieered it from Triax's comercial GR that has the forcefield or from captured Naruni equipment). That would be interesting and I'm sure less people would dissagree over it.

I somewhat agree with your no cockpit. If a mage is going to teleport into a enclosed area or an area that has moving components (includes people) then there should be a horrendous modifier. Sure the mage can visualize the target but how does he know a person isn't where he's going to be? Unless a space is set aside as a teleport safe location that is completely empty and never changed. Maybe the teleport room would have numbers or symbols on the walls so that the mage could remember those in order to determine which one out of a fleet he'd go to.

"I'm game" is a term I picked up from my british friends. It means I'm going along with you. As for changeing the rules, Rifts is alot more stable then most other RPGs out there. Here Paladium is the number 2 game in the world, and for the most part the rules are coherent from the main book to the GMG. They HAVE evolved alot, but we can all understand the rules and the changes.
Now look at the number one, D&D. It has had 3.5 versions. what is a .5 version??? When compared to other RPGs, Rifts is simple.
Also, I don't think this thread would have gone on this long if the problem was a simple rule 'change.' And you must realize, it is the authors choice if he wants to change his game.

Anyway, I don't think many mages are t-porting into robots. That is a heck of alot of PPE to use to take out a very small percentage of an attacking force. Also, most magic classes can't use robots in combat, so it's not like they are going to THIER robot.

.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5. I thought I wouldn't like 2 ed I hate 3 ed.

Are you still working on the thought that T-port: superior is the only one? T-port: lesser would likely be the one to be used if you can see the darn thing and I don't think it cost that much especially in comparison to superior.

Now as the rules say you can teleport by using a picture so you should be able to t-port into a robot even if it is not yours. My problem with that is how do you when their all identical? So if the outside of say a Spider Skull Walker has a hull number on it is it posted on the inside? A possible deffense by the CS is to change the interiors of their vehicles every so often so that the location the mage is visualising simply won't be. This would also be a good way of catching traitors. How you ask. Each interior is done by a seperate team and each interior is different. So if their is a T-port breach then you contain the number of people that would know of the changes in each vehicle. What if the mage has an old model's blueprints? Would the mage have to be able to read Technocan to be able to teleport off of blueprints? The Bots and Vehicles may make up a small percentage but they are also the ones that are the most unaffected by the spells and hard to crack.
T-port could be used offensively also. ??
Correct me if I'm wrong.
1. If a person teleports into something he dies instantly. This does not give flexibility for size of the item, you could technically teleport into a thread and die. It is kindof understandable if you it could be the mystic shock of the entire body being deharmonized with itself. Kind of like dying from an MDC laser shot to the hand.

2. Therefore is something is teleported into you, you die.

3. Teleport: lesser's range is self or touch and it is supposed to be able to t-port your body weight plus a little extra. This does not give an area that can be teleported.

If the above statements are true then a 2 ton dragon can teleport a 2 ton sheet of foil 4 feet above a battlefield. It would appear 4 feet above the battlefield and meld into anything that was there. Robots, armor flesh...everything that occupied the same space. Now my only remaining question is conventional household kitchen foil how much area does 2 tons cover?

A good use for t-port for the mage that is dealing with an explosive they can't defuse due to lack of skill. By teleporting the explosive device into anthing solid or as long as the detonator melded with anything making it not work properly or the explosive material "melded" with dissimilar material making it innert.

[Killer Cyborg]

I somewhat agree with your no cockpit. If a mage is going to teleport into a enclosed area or an area that has moving components (includes people) then there should be a horrendous modifier. Sure the mage can visualize the target but how does he know a person isn't where he's going to be? Unless a space is set aside as a teleport safe location that is completely empty and never changed. Maybe the teleport room would have numbers or symbols on the walls so that the mage could remember those in order to determine which one out of a fleet he'd go to.

Any objections to teleporting into a vehicle because you might appear inside a person/object also apply to teleporting ANYWHERE.
What if you teleport into you house, but your cat happens to be standing where you appear? Or if a chair isn't where you remember it or where you left it and you appear into it?
What if you teleport outside, but there happens to be a bird in your way?
Or a bug?

But the book never directly mentions these problems when discussing teleportation, so we can draw a couple of logical conclusions:
1. The spell displaces objects in the way when the caster teleports into a place. There appears to be some limit to what can be displaced, otherwise you could never teleport into an object and die, but certainly lesser objects like air, gas, insects, dust, etc. are all moved out of your way. So I don't buy the old "Seat Belt in the butt" bit that people brought up a while back. Lesser objects are obviously moved out of your way when you teleport.
2. Any difficulties you might have when teleporting are already covered by the percentages listed under the spell. There is no mention of any further penalties to teleporting, so there are no further penalties.
Obviously the spell has some built in safety features, albeit imperfect ones, that protect the caster from appearing inside people/objects who happen to be in the same area as where they appear.

[Zer0 Kay]

I somewhat agree with your no cockpit. If a mage is going to teleport into a enclosed area or an area that has moving components (includes people) then there should be a horrendous modifier. Sure the mage can visualize the target but how does he know a person isn't where he's going to be? Unless a space is set aside as a teleport safe location that is completely empty and never changed. Maybe the teleport room would have numbers or symbols on the walls so that the mage could remember those in order to determine which one out of a fleet he'd go to.

Any objections to teleporting into a vehicle because you might appear inside a person/object also apply to teleporting ANYWHERE.
What if you teleport into you house, but your cat happens to be standing where you appear? Or if a chair isn't where you remember it or where you left it and you appear into it?
What if you teleport outside, but there happens to be a bird in your way?
Or a bug?

I beleive that is why there is ALWAYS a chance of failure for it.

But the book never directly mentions these problems when discussing teleportation, so we can draw a couple of logical conclusions:
1. The spell displaces objects in the way when the caster teleports into a place. There appears to be some limit to what can be displaced, otherwise you could never teleport into an object and die, but certainly lesser objects like air, gas, insects, dust, etc. are all moved out of your way. So I don't buy the old "Seat Belt in the butt" bit that people brought up a while back. Lesser objects are obviously moved out of your way when you teleport.

The seat belt was me. Again that is why there is always a chance for failure. Now if the mage lived in a house with a billion cats I'd probably increase the chance of failure. The chance for success should also decrease for the amount of time the mage has been away (especially if someone else lives with him.)

2. Any difficulties you might have when teleporting are already covered by the percentages listed under the spell. There is no mention of any further penalties to teleporting, so there are no further penalties.
Obviously the spell has some built in safety features, albeit imperfect ones, that protect the caster from appearing inside people/objects who happen to be in the same area as where they appear.

True but as you already stated it's imperfect.

If the safety interlocks of the spell keep you from teleporting into a wall it would also likely stop my earlier tin foil suggestion unless the spell failed and what dragon would want to keep teleporting tin foil until he got it right? Now someone had to make the spell in the first place what is stopping someone from "reverse engineering" it and removing the safety feature out of it so it could be used as a weapon.

That safety feature by the way would have been a good explaination of why their unable to teleport into a body...the body of a vehicle (iron horse) or robot (giant man). Because the spell was made to avoid them.

[Dr. Doom III]

1. The spell displaces objects in the way when the caster teleports into a place. There appears to be some limit to what can be displaced, otherwise you could never teleport into an object and die, but certainly lesser objects like air, gas, insects, dust, etc. are all moved out of your way. So I don't buy the old "Seat Belt in the butt" bit that people brought up a while back. Lesser objects are obviously moved out of your way when you teleport.
2. Any difficulties you might have when teleporting are already covered by the percentages listed under the spell. There is no mention of any further penalties to teleporting, so there are no further penalties.
Obviously the spell has some built in safety features, albeit imperfect ones, that protect the caster from appearing inside people/objects who happen to be in the same area as where they appear.

More likely you just appear a foot or two away from your intended spot since the magic only affects the thing being teleported.

[Zer0 Kay]

1. The spell displaces objects in the way when the caster teleports into a place. There appears to be some limit to what can be displaced, otherwise you could never teleport into an object and die, but certainly lesser objects like air, gas, insects, dust, etc. are all moved out of your way. So I don't buy the old "Seat Belt in the butt" bit that people brought up a while back. Lesser objects are obviously moved out of your way when you teleport.
2. Any difficulties you might have when teleporting are already covered by the percentages listed under the spell. There is no mention of any further penalties to teleporting, so there are no further penalties.
Obviously the spell has some built in safety features, albeit imperfect ones, that protect the caster from appearing inside people/objects who happen to be in the same area as where they appear.

More likely you just appear a foot or two away from your intended spot since the magic only affects the thing being teleported.

Unless the teleport fails and you role: death.

[Dr. Doom III]

Unless the teleport fails and you role: death.

Right.
You failed to teleport safely.

[Zer0 Kay]

Unless the teleport fails and you role: death.

Right.
You failed to teleport safely.

So like I said someone could use t-port offensively but with that safety feature in it I doubt they'd be willing to spend the time recasting until it did fail.

[Dr. Doom III]

So like I said someone could use t-port offensively but with that safety feature in it I doubt they'd be willing to spend the time recasting until it did fail.

Exactly.

[Zer0 Kay]

So like I said someone could use t-port offensively but with that safety feature in it I doubt they'd be willing to spend the time recasting until it did fail.

Exactly.

Is that said in the same tone and effects as Christopher Lambert in Mortal Combat?

I don't think any dragon has the patience (sp? I'm sleepy).

Maybe Splugorth do that as a game. Field an army and play teleport foil ball, foil sword, foil sheet. Ball beats sword, sword beats sheet, sheet beats ball. Winner of that gets to take a whack at the army sword one swing, ball roll through, sheet either cover or hope to fail teleport and unsafely teleport it into the opposing army. How many (splugorth weight) foil sheets would it take to crush an army? Because a single sheet spread out over an entire army wouldn't feel like that much more than a small sheet would to a single person, since the weight is spread out over a large area and supported by many people.

[Zer0 Kay]

OK so let me get this straight we have only two factions?

One beleives that the rule does not pertain to Teleport.

The other beleives that it does but only if the vehicle is sealed.

If I am wrong, and it is likely only on the second group, is it:

A. No teleport into any vehicle.
B. No teleport into any MDC vehicle.
C. No teleport into any sealed vehicle.
D. No teleport into any sealed MDC vehicle.
E. No teleporting into any MDC structure (vehicle, building...ANYTHING).
F. No teleporting into any sealed MDC structure (vehicle,
building...ANYTHING).
G. Open up a new thread with a poll to get an accurate assesment.

[Killer Cyborg]

OK so let me get this straight we have only two factions?

One beleives that the rule does not pertain to Teleport.

The other beleives that it does but only if the vehicle is sealed.

If I am wrong, and it is likely only on the second group, is it:

A. No teleport into any vehicle.
B. No teleport into any MDC vehicle.
C. No teleport into any sealed vehicle.
D. No teleport into any sealed MDC vehicle.
E. No teleporting into any MDC structure (vehicle, building...ANYTHING).
F. No teleporting into any sealed MDC structure (vehicle,
building...ANYTHING).
G. Open up a new thread with a poll to get an accurate assesment.

There are only three legitimate sides you could have:
1. Teleportation is an exception to the rule
2. The rule applies to Teleport, therefore you cannot teleport into any vehicle (MDC or SDC), regardless of how sealed the vehicle is (As in; no teleporting into a car with all its windows down).
3. No teleportation into any vehicles, buildings, or containers of any sort.

Why are these the only legitimate sides?
-Because 1 is the most logical and the easiest to impliment. The nature of Teleport is to bypass parts of the phycal plane, therefore it can bypass objects.
-Because 2 is a strict, by-the-book adherence to the rules. All the other theories regarding the vehicle being MDC or being Sealed are house rules that have nothing in the books to back them up.
-Because 3 is the only conclusion you can have if you wish to follow 2 out logically. Unless anybody can think of any other decent reasons why magic can't penetrate vehicles, but it can penetrate apartment buildings or cardboard boxes.

[Zer0 Kay]

OK so let me get this straight we have only two factions?

One beleives that the rule does not pertain to Teleport.

The other beleives that it does but only if the vehicle is sealed.

If I am wrong, and it is likely only on the second group, is it:

A. No teleport into any vehicle.
B. No teleport into any MDC vehicle.
C. No teleport into any sealed vehicle.
D. No teleport into any sealed MDC vehicle.
E. No teleporting into any MDC structure (vehicle, building...ANYTHING).
F. No teleporting into any sealed MDC structure (vehicle,
building...ANYTHING).
G. Open up a new thread with a poll to get an accurate assesment.

There are only three legitimate sides you could have:
1. Teleportation is an exception to the rule
2. The rule applies to Teleport, therefore you cannot teleport into any vehicle (MDC or SDC), regardless of how sealed the vehicle is (As in; no teleporting into a car with all its windows down).
3. No teleportation into any vehicles, buildings, or containers of any sort.

Why are these the only legitimate sides?
-Because 1 is the most logical and the easiest to impliment. The nature of Teleport is to bypass parts of the phycal plane, therefore it can bypass objects.
-Because 2 is a strict, by-the-book adherence to the rules. All the other theories regarding the vehicle being MDC or being Sealed are house rules that have nothing in the books to back them up.
-Because 3 is the only conclusion you can have if you wish to follow 2 out logically. Unless anybody can think of any other decent reasons why magic can't penetrate vehicles, but it can penetrate apartment buildings or cardboard boxes.

There is still the other options. I asked for opinions, what they beleive. I didn't ask for how they read/interpreted the rules. And hush you I know where you stand...on the same side I do. I was just wondering how the others thought.