This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Dr. Doom III]

I was just wondering how the others thought.

They didn't.

[Dr. Doom III]

My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.

That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.

[Zer0 Kay]

I've got to say you guys are close to unravling the thought of the other side. Here it is:
High Tech, MDC vehicles are supirior to the teleport spell, and magic in general.

In specific, robots. Robot are the most advanced thing humans have made. It makes sense that humans would find a way to make them magic resistance at the very least. You don't make a boat that will be destroied by drift wood.

My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.

So there you have it. the mystery is solved. I know you don't agree, and of course you don't have to, but with obscure rules, thats about all we know.

Oh so your saying the rule is wrong and it's only robots...yeah ok :loony:

Boats as in Riverboats do get damaged and sometimes sunk by large pices of driftwood. Also before humans would use this defense against magic for their war machines they'd apply it to their homes, security is one of the primary needs of humans. Since you can teleport into Chi-Town I'll assume they haven't used it their, after all the rule is giant robots and vehicles.

[Zer0 Kay]

I was just wondering how the others thought.

They didn't.

What do you mean didn't? They do now? Just kidding guys...kinda

[Zer0 Kay]

My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.

That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.

So if the mage also has Medical skills can he teleport stuff into bodies then?

Shields also keep mages from teleporting.

[Killer Cyborg]

My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.

That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.

So if the mage also has Medical skills can he teleport stuff into bodies then?[\quote]

Not unless he had performed surgery and seen inside the specific body he was teleporting into.

[Zer0 Kay]

My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.

That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.

So if the mage also has Medical skills can he teleport stuff into bodies then?

Not unless he had performed surgery and seen inside the specific body he was teleporting into.

First you forgot an end quote on your post. Second would a x-ray count as a photograph? What about video feedback from a nanobot? All of that is blah blah anyway. I was just suggesting that to be a smart @$$.

[Dr. Doom III]

Doom, I remember when you used to try to sound funny. That comment was just dumb. And when was the last time you teleported? What? only in a game? Oh, so you really have no idea. I guess you will have to agree that the writer is the guy to ask. Maybe that was a good thought I had.
KC is the only person left discussing anything. I can only assume the rest of you dan't care about getting to the bottem of this, you just want to be right. I would rather learn somthing new then teach somthing.

I read the rules.
If you are unfamiliar with where you are teleporting to (and the insides of someone counts as that if anything does) the spell either will not work at all or at best have a huge chance of not working.
I don't need to "really teleport" or assume anything. It's all right there if you care to look and take the time to understand what you are reading.
If I needed to ask I would agree, but I don't. At least not for this question.

[Temporalmage]

Hey all....I'm back!! New job took all my free time.

Ok, here's what we have: The topic of this discussion is weither or not somone can teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle. Teleport can be done by alot of differant ways. So lets explore these ways and see what comes up. I'll start with the ways that wouldn't be able to do so.

Dimensional Teleport: Makes the mage appear at a totally random location, unless the mage has a sanctuary with a Rifts Circle there. Not too likely to have one inside a vehicle, as "sanctuary" indicates a building of some sort.

Teleport: Superior: "Destination" and "Location" are the main words used in this Teleport's discription. A vehicle does not make a very good destination or location as it is mobile. It would be very hard to pin-point a specific vehicle's insides when they are mass-produced and they all look pretty much alike. There is still the much vaunted ruling in the BOM about magic penetrating vehicles. And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

Teleport: Simple: Once again the ruleing in the BOM pops up. Also this topic is about weither or not a mage could teleport into a vehicle, and this spell only teleports objects, so it shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

Rift Teleportation: Only allows teleportation from one ley line nexus to another, and the mage must be familiar with the arrival point. (Being the nexus point, or terrain)

Circle of Travle: As the mage must inscribe the location in both circles it couldn't be used in vehicles as the vehicles change locations. (I'm thinking the inscription would be somthing along the lines of Latitude/Longitude or similar)

Swap Places: a simple teleport spell the must have line of sight, and still falls under the rule in the BOM. This spell doesn't even give a glimmer that it was intended to be used to bypass vehicles.

Summon Ally: A type of one way teleportation. As the person is being teleported from somwhere to the spell caster, this spell isn't a part of this topic either.

Ocean Magic: As it was pointed out before, Ocean magic can penetrate vehicles, as stated in the BOM. The only problem with that is there is no teleportation type spells in Ocean Magic. So it's a moot point.

Now on to the teleport spells that could be used to teleport into vehicles:

Mystic Portal: This spell states that it can be used as a doorway to a nearby location, and states that it can be used to Pass through solid walls. Both clear arguments that this is the one and only spell that specifically defy's the BOM ruling about penetrating robots and vehicles. The spell specifically has "Teleportation" as one of it's uses, so it's definatly part of this topics subject line.

The final answer to the million doller question: "Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?" The answer is yes, but only with the spell Mystic Portal.

[Zer0 Kay]

Hey all....I'm back!! New job took all my free time.

Yay!! now the thread will be extended another 100 pages just from you and Doom going pack and forth again. Glad to see you back. Jar Head

I will give counters and the existing in game counter to the spell that would have been better instead of making up new rules.

Ok, here's what we have: The topic of this discussion is weither or not somone can teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle. Teleport can be done by alot of differant ways. So lets explore these ways and see what comes up. I'll start with the ways that wouldn't be able to do so.

Dimensional Teleport: Makes the mage appear at a totally random location, unless the mage has a sanctuary with a Rifts Circle there. Not too likely to have one inside a vehicle, as "sanctuary" indicates a building of some sort.

Agree with all parts...except sanctuary's definition http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=sanctuary as you see it is usually attatched to buildings. If your going to use that definition though it must be a holy place. The definition that most likely pertains to the spell is #3. If so unless your arguing that the inside of a vehicle can't be a place one can use a vehicle as a sanctuary.

Just thought of an awesome example of a place and a thing. The moving towers from Wormwood. It is a building that moves, therefore it would also be braded with the title of vehicle. I beleive it could also be classified as a mobile sanctuary.

Counter: Forcefield

Teleport: Superior: "Destination" and "Location" are the main words used in this Teleport's discription. A vehicle does not make a very good destination or location as it is mobile. It would be very hard to pin-point a specific vehicle's insides when they are mass-produced and they all look pretty much alike. There is still the much vaunted ruling in the BOM about magic penetrating vehicles. And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

If location was that important one would not be able to teleport with just the aid of a picture, which by the way has a greater chance of success than if the location was described in detail (long., lat., alt., all those details aren't as good as a simple picture where you can't even tell where it is)

Completely agree about the mass produced bit. Unless vehicles had unique markings on the inside. (hey there's the fuzzy dice again)


Who cares if they don't have the capability to pilot the giant robot the beauty of T:S is they can bring someone who does.

The spell says (paraphrasing but look it up RMB pg 190) the best results can be achieved when the character is personally acquainted with the destination, blah blah blah,. However, locations seen in photographs or described in detail can also be reached, blah blah blah.... 80% success rate just from pictures.

Counter: Forcefield

Teleport: Simple: Once again the ruleing in the BOM pops up. Also this topic is about weither or not a mage could teleport into a vehicle, and this spell only teleports objects, so it shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

I admit it would definately be difficult to use this spell... Because it doesn't exist. Teleport: Lesser does only transport non-organic substances. Still some mage wanting to transport an explosive device into a robot could since the spell says the ONLY requirements are that the mage touches the object to be teleported and the location where it is being sent is known to him. Known is very vague and could mean that he actually had to have been there or he must have been told about it or simply that the mage needs to know where he want it to go (i.e. I've never seen the inside of one of those before but I want to teleport this into the cockpit.) The first and third are unlikely and I'd likely make the rulling that it is like T:S but cheaper because of the shorter distance, limited weight and constraints on what can be sent.

Counter: forcefield

Rift Teleportation: Only allows teleportation from one ley line nexus to another, and the mage must be familiar with the arrival point. (Being the nexus point, or terrain)

So what if a giant vehicle is parked on top of the nexus and the spell indeed refers to requireing familiarity with the nexus point your going to rather than the terrain?

Counter: Don't know but I think the restriction to nexus only is pretty balancing. Since it is a teleport forcefields should also counter it.

Circle of Travle: As the mage must inscribe the location in both circles it couldn't be used in vehicles as the vehicles change locations. (I'm thinking the inscription would be somthing along the lines of Latitude/Longitude or similar)

I dought the crap with lat. and long.. Your talking about a spell that came from PFRPG. They didn't have lat. and long.. It is more likely that it requires a mystic symbol that has been established for the destination. So I agree that a vehicle, especially mass produced ones aren't going to be good locations...unless the vehicle has a mystic circle inside it that the travel spell can send to because the destination circle is able to be mystically assigned to the travel circle.

Counter: since I'd require it to go from circle to circle I wouldn't allow a forcefield to halt it. Also since both circles were probably place by the same mage I don't think he'd place a forcefield around. Though it would be "funny" for someone to errect a field and trap the mage at his destination.

Swap Places: a simple teleport spell the must have line of sight, and still falls under the rule in the BOM. This spell doesn't even give a glimmer that it was intended to be used to bypass vehicles.

Hmm...don't care! However if the mage is actually able to see into the vehicle and see the target I think there'd be arguement for someone who did care.

Counter: Don't care about that either but since it doesn't say teleport anywhere in the description a forcefield which stops teleporting shouldn't stop it. However try tinted windows, or have an emergency vat of crisco for those times when the pilot sees the mage casting he can throw it on the windshield making him not "clearly visible" or maybe he should just duck under the console. If your going to be going strictly by the word of the spell then the mage wouldn't be able to swap with anyone in armor as only the armor is clearly visible not the person.

Summon Ally: A type of one way teleportation. As the person is being teleported from somwhere to the spell caster, this spell isn't a part of this topic either.

Never used it so unfamiliar with it so...don't care.

Ocean Magic: As it was pointed out before, Ocean magic can penetrate vehicles, as stated in the BOM. The only problem with that is there is no teleportation type spells in Ocean Magic. So it's a moot point.

Hmm don't use it so guess I don't really care. However I beleive the ocean magic states that it can be cast out view ports and port holes because fireball and such (the direct fire spells) can't. I think the book of magic had the skinn crap put in so that idiots would stop trying to cast fireball and the like out from the inside of vehicles through it's windows.

I WISH WHOEVER WROTE THE RULE WOULD COME ON TO THE BOARD AND EXPLAIN WHAT HIS INTENTIONS WERE!

Counter: remove line of sight. mirrored tint so they can't see outside paint ink something that makes that view port not a VIEW port.

Now on to the teleport spells that could be used to teleport into vehicles:

Mystic Portal: This spell states that it can be used as a doorway to a nearby location, and states that it can be used to Pass through solid walls. Both clear arguments that this is the one and only spell that specifically defy's the BOM ruling about penetrating robots and vehicles. The spell specifically has "Teleportation" as one of it's uses, so it's definatly part of this topics subject line.

How is being able to be used as a doorway that can pass through solid walls translate into a doorway that can be used to pass through MDC material? If you can translate the spell to mean this then people can translate ANYWHERE to mean... oh wait it does mean anywhere.

The final answer to the million doller question: "Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?" The answer is yes, but only with the spell Mystic Portal.

Is not the final answer since only the writter of the rule can definately say what the intentions were.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey all....I'm back!! New job took all my free time.

Sorry to hear about that, but hopefully you're making a lot of money...
Welcome Back.

Ok, here's what we have: The topic of this discussion is weither or not somone can teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle. Teleport can be done by alot of differant ways. So lets explore these ways and see what comes up. I'll start with the ways that wouldn't be able to do so.

Well, as it has been pointed out, the title of the topic is misleading since there is nothing in the books that says a vehicle has to be environmentally sealed.

Dimensional Teleport: Makes the mage appear at a totally random location, unless the mage has a sanctuary with a Rifts Circle there. Not too likely to have one inside a vehicle, as "sanctuary" indicates a building of some sort.

I disagree. Many of my characters have mobile bases. What do you think that Behemoth Explorers are for?

Teleport: Superior: "Destination" and "Location" are the main words used in this Teleport's discription. A vehicle does not make a very good destination or location as it is mobile.

Absolutely incorrect.
All Locations are mobile. Continental Drift, the movement of the planets, etc., etc., etc.
A location is only fixed or mobile in relation to physical objects.
"In My Castle" is a place that exists as long as the castle does, regardless of whether or not the castle moves. Same with "In my Behemoth Explorer", or "In my car", or whatever.

It would be very hard to pin-point a specific vehicle's insides when they are mass-produced and they all look pretty much alike.

For that matter, all places look alike in the dark. Does that mean that a mage can automatically teleport to any dark place?
Or that a blind mage can teleport to any place at all, since they all "look pretty much alike"?
No.
The visualization of the location is just a tool to help guide a person to a specific location. The spell doesn't teleport the mage to a place that bears superficial resembelance to someplace he knows; it teleports him TO a place that he knows.

There is still the much vaunted ruling in the BOM about magic penetrating vehicles.

Yes. Since the meaning and intention of that rule is up for debate, I'm glad you didn't spend much time rehashing it here.

And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.

[Traska]

How many people can close their eyes right now, and see every detail of the inside of their car, from dashboard to back seat... despite the fact that their automotive knowledge ends at pumping gas?

I know I can.

[Temporalmage]

And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.

[Killer Cyborg]

And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.

1. As I have pointed out, you don't need to have special skills in order to be familiar with a place.
2. You have a really narrow view of what mages are, and you're trying to claim that they all (or even that 99%) of them fit into one image that you have in your head. There is little basis for this.
3. As for mages' senses being restricted when they're inside vehicles, I guess it would be. But that makes no real difference. The lack of peripheral vision I have when I'm driving my truck doesn't keep me from driving it. The fact that it's too noisy for me to hear much going on outside doesn't keep me from driving it.
4. Let's look at mage skills for a minute...
Line Walkers- Pilot: Any (+2)
Mystics- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
Shifters- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
TechnoWizard- Pilot: Any

Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...
And it looks like even Mystics and Shifters can pilot normal aircraft, boats (including ships and other enclosed cabin versions), helecopters, Hovercraft (presumably including hover cars and hover trucks), and Trucks (including large cargo and transportation vehicles like eight to sixteen wheelded commercial trucks and multi-ton transports).
Doesn't say anything about them not liking to pilot any of these things.

Also note that NONE of the main book magic OCCs are restricted in their use of Pilot Related Skills. They can take all the skills to be a navigator or gunner on any vehicle.

I'm sure you'll stick to your claims, but they just don't pan out.

[RainOfSteel]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

[Zer0 Kay]

And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.

It is a skill that is learned by a normal human not born to them. Anyone can become a magic user, it is not an RCC. The senses gained by a magic user are akin to those gained by race car drivers, hackers, programmers, doctors, mathmaticians. All of them gain abilities to detect what others can't but when out of their element they aren't blind, the senses that they do use as naturally as we breath are still there...the same senses we have. Now I could beleive your arguement for psionics who are born with their abilities hence being an RCC. Why would a mage want to teleport into a vehicle...because he want to get to its soft squishy insides instead of having to whittle away at its armor.

Again I say you don't have to be familiar with the inside since you can teleport just based on description.

[Zer0 Kay]

And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?

What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.

1. As I have pointed out, you don't need to have special skills in order to be familiar with a place.
2. You have a really narrow view of what mages are, and you're trying to claim that they all (or even that 99%) of them fit into one image that you have in your head. There is little basis for this.
3. As for mages' senses being restricted when they're inside vehicles, I guess it would be. But that makes no real difference. The lack of peripheral vision I have when I'm driving my truck doesn't keep me from driving it. The fact that it's too noisy for me to hear much going on outside doesn't keep me from driving it.
4. Let's look at mage skills for a minute...
Line Walkers- Pilot: Any (+2)
Mystics- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
Shifters- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
TechnoWizard- Pilot: Any

Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...
And it looks like even Mystics and Shifters can pilot normal aircraft, boats (including ships and other enclosed cabin versions), helecopters, Hovercraft (presumably including hover cars and hover trucks), and Trucks (including large cargo and transportation vehicles like eight to sixteen wheelded commercial trucks and multi-ton transports).
Doesn't say anything about them not liking to pilot any of these things.

Also note that NONE of the main book magic OCCs are restricted in their use of Pilot Related Skills. They can take all the skills to be a navigator or gunner on any vehicle.

I'm sure you'll stick to your claims, but they just don't pan out.

Don't forget about all the TW vehicles or magic constructs.

[Zer0 Kay]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.

[RainOfSteel]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.

Well, as my posts completely covered the multi-dimensional aspects of the discussion, belying the "cannot comprehend moving in another dimension" point in totality, this indicates the author of this "jibe" had read not a whit of what I'd written, and therefore was not in a position to be jibing me about anything.

If the above is only a jibe, then inverting it and tossing it back should not be considered a problem, and yet, I'm quite certain that doing so would not have been appreciated.

[Zer0 Kay]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.

Well, as my posts completely covered the multi-dimensional aspects of the discussion, belying the "cannot comprehend moving in another dimension" point in totality, this indicates the author of this "jibe" had read not a whit of what I'd written, and therefore was not in a position to be jibing me about anything.

If the above is only a jibe, then inverting it and tossing it back should not be considered a problem, and yet, I'm quite certain that doing so would not have been appreciated.

hmm we are talking about Dr. Ego here so you probably right. There, there is a jibe at Doom now lets see how he handles it.

[Zer0 Kay]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.

Well, as my posts completely covered the multi-dimensional aspects of the discussion, belying the "cannot comprehend moving in another dimension" point in totality, this indicates the author of this "jibe" had read not a whit of what I'd written, and therefore was not in a position to be jibing me about anything.

If the above is only a jibe, then inverting it and tossing it back should not be considered a problem, and yet, I'm quite certain that doing so would not have been appreciated.

This thread has been pretty tense at times, I've noticed. People have been arguing for a long time about the issue and the issue has become personal to some. In order to maintain the quality of the thread, people need to be more sensitive in taunting, and others need to be less sensitive when being taunted. Its not just you, RainOfSteel, many people have been disgruntled at times during the course of this thread.

But let's not concentrate on that. Let's think about why people are disagreeing with you. Even though you feel you have completely snuffed out the multidimensional argument, others have not lost faith in it. Perhaps you need to explain your side differently or more thoroughly. Try new examples and analogies. Or try disproving the other side's analogies and examples again.

Nobody has refuted my flooper example; maybe you could start there. Here is the revised example:

Take a Flooper R.C.C. character and put him in an MDC robot with the window open. He *floops* into another dimension and before he returns, we seal up the robot. Then he *floops* back into the robot. Does he succeed? Or is his teleportation terminus for some reason now outside the robot? Or is he anhilated?

I don't like that one as much as the old one. If he was in the vehicle when he flooped in the first place then their is no interaction with the skin. Here is the interestin question, not on topic really though. When the vehicle moves does the pocket dimension move with it? Is the entrance linked to the land or to where ever the flooper may be (i.e. if on a box then it would be the box, in the robot, it is the robot.) If it is to the land and the robot moves is the flooper able to unfloop or does the robot have to be in the same space for the flooper to reapear?

[Guest]

This is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people just started posting in it, not knowing originally what it was, and now they have kept on posting in it, if only just because...

[Temporalmage]

Killer Cyborg and ZerO Kay, gee guys you both seem so intent on saying that any ol mage can pilot robots or power armor if they want too, right? Then I got one teeny tiny question for ya... Why would they want too? One of you guys brought up the fact that mages are taught how to be mages. So why would someone spend all that time and energy learning how to cast spells just to spend more time and energy learning how to pilot a vehicle that is going to make his spell casting immaterial and irrelevant? Seems pretty retarded to me.

What I really like is the fact that you both seem so intent on picking apart that little bit, that you've both lost sight of everything else in that specific post.

By the books, the only spell that comes remotly close to saying that it allows a mage to teleport into a vehicle or robot is Mystic Portal.
Everything stated in the discription of Teleport Superior could be debated. The discription uses words like "target destination", "location", "Place", etc. All these could be taken to mean several differant things, to several differant peaple. Hence the length of this post in the first place. But remember the question that started this avalanche of posts. "Can one teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle". The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal. Any other answer is questionable at best when all the rules and definition geussing are taken into account.

[RainOfSteel]

The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.

Then you weren't reading the previous posts.

My version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that the phrase "magic can't penetrate" is a generic, catch-all statement, that states that all means and methods using magic can't get inside the skin of GR&Vs. This includes Mystic Portal. Why? Because it's magic, and the ruling says "magic can't". I do not narrowly define "penetrate" to mean physical conveyance through the physical armor via the ordinary three dimensions plus time, I've asserted I believe it refers to all possible methods, including multi-dimensional methods. (I also apply, in My Rifts Universe, the further definition that the BoM p.21 ruling applies to environmentally sealed MDC GR&V only, not to SDC versions; for which I have presented extensive justification.) I believe the BoM p.19 discussion restricting mages from casting magic out of GR or V further supports this version. If it can't go out, it can't go in . . . basically, an extension of consistency.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling (which I do not agree with) is that "penetrate" is a limiting descriptor that means one specific narrow type of magical activity, and that Teleport: Superior doesn't do that magical activity, and so the BoM p.21 doesn't apply to it (or Mystic Portal; or any other spell that looks likely), allowing Teleport: Superior to get people into GR&V. Even though the same spell is clearly prohibited (if you turn back one page in the BoM and read on page 19) from allowing a mage to teleport out, somehow, it still allows teleportation in. And also, even though a mage standing on the outside of a vehicle may glance at the person standing next to them, and use Teleport: Superior to put that person inside a GR or V; that mage then can't use Teleport: Superior to get that person back out.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that it be ignored entirely. (Which, you would think, would also cause the discussion on BoM p.19 restricting the casting magic while inside GR&Vs to go away as well . . . )

[RainOfSteel]

.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.

And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".

[RainOfSteel]

3. Teleport: lesser's range is self or touch and it is supposed to be able to t-port your body weight plus a little extra. This does not give an area that can be teleported.

Teleport: Lesser is limited to working on "non-living" substances (and I would say "animate", though the spell doesn't say that), so it clearly does not work on "your body weight".

The actual weight limit is 50lbs.

Also, the range is not "self", but only touch.

[Zer0 Kay]

This is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people just started posting in it, not knowing originally what it was, and now they have kept on posting in it, if only just because...

Better late then never. I did that a few pages back.

[Zer0 Kay]

Killer Cyborg and ZerO Kay, gee guys you both seem so intent on saying that any ol mage can pilot robots or power armor if they want too, right? Then I got one teeny tiny question for ya... Why would they want too? One of you guys brought up the fact that mages are taught how to be mages. So why would someone spend all that time and energy learning how to cast spells just to spend more time and energy learning how to pilot a vehicle that is going to make his spell casting immaterial and irrelevant? Seems pretty retarded to me.

What I really like is the fact that you both seem so intent on picking apart that little bit, that you've both lost sight of everything else in that specific post.

By the books, the only spell that comes remotly close to saying that it allows a mage to teleport into a vehicle or robot is Mystic Portal.
Everything stated in the discription of Teleport Superior could be debated. The discription uses words like "target destination", "location", "Place", etc. All these could be taken to mean several differant things, to several differant peaple. Hence the length of this post in the first place. But remember the question that started this avalanche of posts. "Can one teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle". The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal. Any other answer is questionable at best when all the rules and definition geussing are taken into account.

NO I said nothing of the kind I said if a mage wants to he can bring a pilot along with him. But now that you bring it up they'd want to do it so that they can survive the initial attack from a CS trooper that would have otherwise killed him if he was suprised. If he is in a giant robot and he is more formidibal than the robot as far as power, he can cast his defensive spells after he gets attacked then get out the hatch and wreak havok.

Last I checked I wast the one who posted the topic and have changed the discussion many times. Now this thread is pretty much an arguement of symantics (sp?). You forgot the all important "Anywhere" in teleport. How many other spells say...ANYWHERE?

As I've said before the ruling in the BOM was probably put there for people who lacked common sense and attempted to throw fireball and either expect it to strike the person inside or from the inside and expect it to start on the otherside of the window.

And last but not least have some fun and I can't hear you nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah

[Dr. Doom III]

What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles.

Now you're just being facetious.
It's familiarity with the space not the operation of the vehicle.

[Dr. Doom III]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Observation =/= personal attack.
3 pages attempting to explain going around something in another dimension of movement and failing to get you to understand is a fact.

[Zer0 Kay]

The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.

Then you weren't reading the previous posts.

My version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that the phrase "magic can't penetrate" is a generic, catch-all statement, that states that all means and methods using magic can't get inside the skin of GR&Vs. This includes Mystic Portal. Why? Because it's magic, and the ruling says "magic can't". I do not narrowly define "penetrate" to mean physical conveyance through the physical armor via the ordinary three dimensions plus time, I've asserted I believe it refers to all possible methods, including multi-dimensional methods. (I also apply, in My Rifts Universe, the further definition that the BoM p.21 ruling applies to environmentally sealed MDC GR&V only, not to SDC versions; for which I have presented extensive justification.) I believe the BoM p.19 discussion restricting mages from casting magic out of GR or V further supports this version. If it can't go out, it can't go in . . . basically, an extension of consistency.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling (which I do not agree with) is that "penetrate" is a limiting descriptor that means one specific narrow type of magical activity, and that Teleport: Superior doesn't do that magical activity, and so the BoM p.21 doesn't apply to it (or Mystic Portal; or any other spell that looks likely), allowing Teleport: Superior to get people into GR&V. Even though the same spell is clearly prohibited (if you turn back one page in the BoM and read on page 19) from allowing a mage to teleport out, somehow, it still allows teleportation in. And also, even though a mage standing on the outside of a vehicle may glance at the person standing next to them, and use Teleport: Superior to put that person inside a GR or V; that mage then can't use Teleport: Superior to get that person back out.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that it be ignored entirely. (Which, you would think, would also cause the discussion on BoM p.19 restricting the casting magic while inside GR&Vs to go away as well . . . )

Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.

What exactly is the rule on p. 19? I thought it said magic cast inside can not effect targets outside. How does that stop Dooms definition where the "target" location is only a reference to the desired point of appearance and is only in the mind of the caster so really does not effect the target itself?

[Dr. Doom III]

hmm we are talking about Dr. Ego here so you probably right. There, there is a jibe at Doom now lets see how he handles it.

PERSONAL ATTACK!!!!!11!!!!ONE!!!

You are so reported.

[The Galactus Kid]

just chiming in, just like every month. You do know that this thread is getting ridiculously long, don't you. lol

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i see the boards are filled with the same people and some new ones, and all have a wonderful disposition

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg and ZerO Kay, gee guys you both seem so intent on saying that any ol mage can pilot robots or power armor if they want too, right? Then I got one teeny tiny question for ya... Why would they want too? One of you guys brought up the fact that mages are taught how to be mages. So why would someone spend all that time and energy learning how to cast spells just to spend more time and energy learning how to pilot a vehicle that is going to make his spell casting immaterial and irrelevant? Seems pretty retarded to me.

Are you serious?
That's like saying "Why would a Rogue Scholar want to pilot a robot? I mean, it's hard to read in a moving vehicle..."
Get real, man.

Why would a mage want to pilot a robot or drive a vehicle?
For all the same reasons that everybody else does.
For extra weaponry, for transportation, for a portable MDC sanctuary where you don't have to worry about a MD mosquito bite killing you in your sleep, for transportation, to keep the bad weather off you when you travel, and finally, for transportation.
I know I listed transportation a number of times, but you didn't seem to think of it on your own.
What kind of crappy argument are you making here?
That mages wouldn't bother to learn how to drive because they know magic!?
C'mon... you can do better than that!

What I really like is the fact that you both seem so intent on picking apart that little bit, that you've both lost sight of everything else in that specific post.

You are the only person that I have ever even heard of that has claimed that learning magic means you wouldn't want to pilot a vehicle, so don't act like it is a fact... really, don't even act like it has any basis in the game, because it doesn't.
If Mages didn't like to pilot vehicles, the books would mention something about that. Just like the books mention their distaste for heavy body armor. They don't, they just say that pilots can have ANY pilot skill.

Now turn to p. 94 of your Rifts book and read on Features that can be added to Vehicles.
"Applicable to all conventional and military passenger vehicles, and giant robot vehicles. A man of magic or psionic must be the pilot in order to activate the magic."

By the books, the only spell that comes remotly close to saying that it allows a mage to teleport into a vehicle or robot is Mystic Portal.
Everything stated in the discription of Teleport Superior could be debated. The discription uses words like "target destination", "location", "Place", etc. All these could be taken to mean several differant things, to several differant peaple. Hence the length of this post in the first place. But remember the question that started this avalanche of posts. "Can one teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle". The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal. Any other answer is questionable at best when all the rules and definition geussing are taken into account.

You just keep restating your case and ignoring mine.
As I said before, if you want to take the hard line of by-the-book interpretation of things then you have only 3 options.
1. Teleportation cannot take you into or out of any container, vehicle, or building, making the spell fairly useless.
2. Teleport is a logical exception to the rule.
3. You can teleport into a cardboard box, but not into a cardboard box on wheels.

[Zer0 Kay]

.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.

And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".

I forgot about the 2nd ed rivision but I was counting all of the boxed sets as one other wise you end up with Basic, Advanced, Expert and Immortals. They were all still the same game just supplaments.

[RainOfSteel]

RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.

Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.

Observation =/= personal attack.
3 pages attempting to explain going around something in another dimension of movement and failing to get you to understand is a fact.

Oh, I understood. I just don't agree.

[RainOfSteel]

What exactly is the rule on p. 19?

It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:

Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.

I'm a little flexible on just how much of an "opening" is required, and just how much of a mage's body needs to be "sticking out", but there it is. It's phrased almost exactly like the BoM p.21 ruling, only in reverse, and in far stronger terms.

It is from here that I derive the need and requirement for "sealed". I'm willing to debate and be flexible on just what constitutes a "seal", but since the mecha can't be "closed" and still have mages casting out, we can logically conclude that the "closed" or "sealed" state is what causes magic to be unable to penetrate the skin of the GR or V. Perhaps I should change my mind, and be less flexible, but whatever the end result, I'd decide on an in or out policy, having people hanging out half way in order to get get something done . . . it invites too many arguments over what constitutes "half way".

I thought it said magic cast inside can not effect targets outside.

It's phrased a little differently.

How does that stop Dooms definition where the "target" location is only a reference to the desired point of appearance and is only in the mind of the caster so really does not effect the target itself?

It doesn't, as far as I'm concerned. A spell can't have a legal target in a place it can't operate because it can't get there (by whatever means); at least, can't get there by the way I view the rulings.

Doom has indicated his interpretation of BoM p.21 (and BoM p.19, by extension) is that it doesn't apply to Teleport: Superior (and similar multi-dimensional spells). I think the rulings do apply to the spells. It's just that simple.

[RainOfSteel]

.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.

And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".

I forgot about the 2nd ed rivision but I was counting all of the boxed sets as one other wise you end up with Basic, Advanced, Expert and Immortals. They were all still the same game just supplaments.

The Basic, Expert, Champions, Masters, and Immortals series were an entirely different variant of the D&D line of games, a complete game in and of themselves. They were a simplified version of the rules intended to bring in new players who would then "advance" on to AD&D. It's was only sporadically supported, every time it seemed to start going somewhere, support would fade away, until it was allowed to die completely by converted it's entire setting into AD&D 2nd rules.

[Zer0 Kay]

What exactly is the rule on p. 19?

It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:

Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

[Zer0 Kay]

Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.

No, it's good. It breeds truth.

Wouldn't that be inbreeds truth? That was a jest ROS.

[Zer0 Kay]

.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.

And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".

I forgot about the 2nd ed rivision but I was counting all of the boxed sets as one other wise you end up with Basic, Advanced, Expert and Immortals. They were all still the same game just supplaments.

The Basic, Expert, Champions, Masters, and Immortals series were an entirely different variant of the D&D line of games, a complete game in and of themselves. They were a simplified version of the rules intended to bring in new players who would then "advance" on to AD&D. It's was only sporadically supported, every time it seemed to start going somewhere, support would fade away, until it was allowed to die completely by converted it's entire setting into AD&D 2nd rules.

The boxed sets are what most people are familiar with as being D&D.

[RainOfSteel]

Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.

No, it's good. It breeds truth.

Wouldn't that be inbreeds truth? That was a jest ROS.

I'm not the one doing the breeding, inbreeding, or otherwise . . .

[RainOfSteel]

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

And now, if the rule only actually came out and just said that, wouldn't it be ever so much simpler?

[Guest]

"Dude, guess what, I beat the internet, the last guy was really hard...but it was totally worth it, I got some pr0n+1 and 255 Songs!"

[Zer0 Kay]

Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.

No, it's good. It breeds truth.

Wouldn't that be inbreeds truth? That was a jest ROS.

I'm not the one doing the breeding, inbreeding, or otherwise . . .

I didn't say you were just the posts. Now it seems like your having fun.

[Zer0 Kay]

Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.

And now, if the rule only actually came out and just said that, wouldn't it be ever so much simpler?

Yes it would be simpler if it said please use common sense when casting spells any spell that launches something at a target (direct fire) or requires touching a target can not get through the skin of a vehicle without damaging it just as gun fire can not.

However, again, teleport is not a direct fire nor does it require you to touch outside the vehicle. If you are inside you are touching/casting it on things inside the location to where you are going is tangent to this "targeting".

[Zer0 Kay]

"Dude, guess what, I beat the internet, the last guy was really hard...but it was totally worth it, I got some pr0n+1 and 255 Songs!"

I understand the pr0n but is the 255 supposted to mean somthing other than a number? I thought I got a good score with 100,000 geek points. I hate you not because your taller, stronger or whatever else you may or may not be, but because your geekier.

[Guest]

I have Negative Geek points, I am dorky.

and 255 is the traditional number of items maxed in alot of RPG's

[Temporalmage]

The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.

Then you weren't reading the previous posts.

My version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that the phrase "magic can't penetrate" is a generic, catch-all statement, that states that all means and methods using magic can't get inside the skin of GR&Vs. This includes Mystic Portal. Why? Because it's magic, and the ruling says "magic can't". I do not narrowly define "penetrate" to mean physical conveyance through the physical armor via the ordinary three dimensions plus time, I've asserted I believe it refers to all possible methods, including multi-dimensional methods. (I also apply, in My Rifts Universe, the further definition that the BoM p.21 ruling applies to environmentally sealed MDC GR&V only, not to SDC versions; for which I have presented extensive justification.) I believe the BoM p.19 discussion restricting mages from casting magic out of GR or V further supports this version. If it can't go out, it can't go in . . . basically, an extension of consistency.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling (which I do not agree with) is that "penetrate" is a limiting descriptor that means one specific narrow type of magical activity, and that Teleport: Superior doesn't do that magical activity, and so the BoM p.21 doesn't apply to it (or Mystic Portal; or any other spell that looks likely), allowing Teleport: Superior to get people into GR&V. Even though the same spell is clearly prohibited (if you turn back one page in the BoM and read on page 19) from allowing a mage to teleport out, somehow, it still allows teleportation in. And also, even though a mage standing on the outside of a vehicle may glance at the person standing next to them, and use Teleport: Superior to put that person inside a GR or V; that mage then can't use Teleport: Superior to get that person back out.

Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that it be ignored entirely. (Which, you would think, would also cause the discussion on BoM p.19 restricting the casting magic while inside GR&Vs to go away as well . . . )

Dude....read some of the earliest posts on this topic. I've pretty much said all that you did, several times, plus had more quotes from the books too. Now that it's obvious that you have a fine understanding of the rules as stated in the BOM, why don't you read the spell Mystic Portal? Mystic Portal is cast on the OUTSIDE of the robot/vehicle, and effects the robot/vehicle itself. EXCATLY LIKE THE BOM ALLOWS!! The spell would work by making a portal on the side of the robot/vehicle and allowing the mage to enter. It is after all a dimensional rift in the fabric of space. A normal teleport would not work for all the reasons you've already stated.

By the way, my original post was simply to answer the question of this topic. It's odd that many posters here are simply refusing to remember the original question, instead choosing to ramble and argue about semantics that are not a part of the original question. Kinda like not seeing the forest for all the trees.
end rant