Zer0 Kay wrote:I was just wondering how the others thought.
They didn't.
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
silverlb wrote:My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.
silverlb wrote:I've got to say you guys are close to unravling the thought of the other side. Here it is:
High Tech, MDC vehicles are supirior to the teleport spell, and magic in general.
In specific, robots. Robot are the most advanced thing humans have made. It makes sense that humans would find a way to make them magic resistance at the very least. You don't make a boat that will be destroied by drift wood.
My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.
So there you have it. the mystery is solved. I know you don't agree, and of course you don't have to, but with obscure rules, thats about all we know.
Dr. Doom III wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:I was just wondering how the others thought.
They didn't.
Dr. Doom III wrote:silverlb wrote:My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.
That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:silverlb wrote:My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.
That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:silverlb wrote:My personal thought on the BOM rule is that Robots and some vehicles are given the same respect and consideration by the element of magic that a living being would have, as long as the robot is being piloted. Whatever would keep the mage from t-porting into a creature, would keep him out of the robot.
That would be lack of knowledge of where you want to teleport.
So if the mage also has Medical skills can he teleport stuff into bodies then?
Not unless he had performed surgery and seen inside the specific body he was teleporting into.
silverlb wrote:Doom, I remember when you used to try to sound funny. That comment was just dumb. And when was the last time you teleported? What? only in a game? Oh, so you really have no idea. I guess you will have to agree that the writer is the guy to ask. Maybe that was a good thought I had.
KC is the only person left discussing anything. I can only assume the rest of you dan't care about getting to the bottem of this, you just want to be right. I would rather learn somthing new then teach somthing.
Temporalmage wrote:Hey all....I'm back!! New job took all my free time.
Ok, here's what we have: The topic of this discussion is weither or not somone can teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle. Teleport can be done by alot of differant ways. So lets explore these ways and see what comes up. I'll start with the ways that wouldn't be able to do so.
Dimensional Teleport: Makes the mage appear at a totally random location, unless the mage has a sanctuary with a Rifts Circle there. Not too likely to have one inside a vehicle, as "sanctuary" indicates a building of some sort.
Teleport: Superior: "Destination" and "Location" are the main words used in this Teleport's discription. A vehicle does not make a very good destination or location as it is mobile. It would be very hard to pin-point a specific vehicle's insides when they are mass-produced and they all look pretty much alike. There is still the much vaunted ruling in the BOM about magic penetrating vehicles. And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
Teleport: Simple: Once again the ruleing in the BOM pops up. Also this topic is about weither or not a mage could teleport into a vehicle, and this spell only teleports objects, so it shouldn't even be part of this discussion.
Rift Teleportation: Only allows teleportation from one ley line nexus to another, and the mage must be familiar with the arrival point. (Being the nexus point, or terrain)
Circle of Travle: As the mage must inscribe the location in both circles it couldn't be used in vehicles as the vehicles change locations. (I'm thinking the inscription would be somthing along the lines of Latitude/Longitude or similar)
Swap Places: a simple teleport spell the must have line of sight, and still falls under the rule in the BOM. This spell doesn't even give a glimmer that it was intended to be used to bypass vehicles.
Summon Ally: A type of one way teleportation. As the person is being teleported from somwhere to the spell caster, this spell isn't a part of this topic either.
Ocean Magic: As it was pointed out before, Ocean magic can penetrate vehicles, as stated in the BOM. The only problem with that is there is no teleportation type spells in Ocean Magic. So it's a moot point.
Now on to the teleport spells that could be used to teleport into vehicles:
Mystic Portal: This spell states that it can be used as a doorway to a nearby location, and states that it can be used to Pass through solid walls. Both clear arguments that this is the one and only spell that specifically defy's the BOM ruling about penetrating robots and vehicles. The spell specifically has "Teleportation" as one of it's uses, so it's definatly part of this topics subject line.
Is not the final answer since only the writter of the rule can definately say what the intentions were.The final answer to the million doller question: "Can one teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle?" The answer is yes, but only with the spell Mystic Portal.
Temporalmage wrote:Hey all....I'm back!! New job took all my free time.
Ok, here's what we have: The topic of this discussion is weither or not somone can teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle. Teleport can be done by alot of differant ways. So lets explore these ways and see what comes up. I'll start with the ways that wouldn't be able to do so.
Dimensional Teleport: Makes the mage appear at a totally random location, unless the mage has a sanctuary with a Rifts Circle there. Not too likely to have one inside a vehicle, as "sanctuary" indicates a building of some sort.
Teleport: Superior: "Destination" and "Location" are the main words used in this Teleport's discription. A vehicle does not make a very good destination or location as it is mobile.
It would be very hard to pin-point a specific vehicle's insides when they are mass-produced and they all look pretty much alike.
There is still the much vaunted ruling in the BOM about magic penetrating vehicles.
And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Temporalmage wrote:And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.
Temporalmage wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Temporalmage wrote:And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.
What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.
Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Temporalmage wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Temporalmage wrote:And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.
What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Temporalmage wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Temporalmage wrote:And as an aside mages, (With the exception of Techno-Wizards) don't have any skills that would allow them familiarity with vehicles of any type in the first place. Most can't pilot robots, or even work on them mechanically. So where is the "Personal Acquaintance" needed to successfully cast the spell?
What are you saying here?
That a mage has to have a Carpentry skill in order to teleport into a house? Or that he has to have Wilderness Survival, or Forestry, to teleport someplace outdoors?
Nonsense.
I'm personally familiar with many people and places that I don't have intimate enough knowledge of that I could take them apart and put them back together.
What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles. And since magic is hindered when being in a robot or power armor, as are psionic powers, mages really wouldn't have much experiance with the insides of them. What would be the logic of locking yourself inside of somthing that blocks your paranormal powers? Logically mages just wouldn't be spending alot of time inside of a robot to gain ffamiliarity with it, except for the uber-rare exception, or unless you were a Techno-wizard. Whats the point of being a Ley Line Walker if you lock yourself inside of a robot and can't even sense a ley line? Or gain the extra power from being close to one? See the logic here? Traska may be familiar with his car, but that's because it doesn't make him blind when he gets inside it, or deaf, or mute, or shut off any one of his other senses. Getting inside of a robot or vehicle does exactly that to a mage. It blocks one of thier senses that is as natural to them as breathing is to us. And they just wouldn't do it except in the uber-rare circumstance.
1. As I have pointed out, you don't need to have special skills in order to be familiar with a place.
2. You have a really narrow view of what mages are, and you're trying to claim that they all (or even that 99%) of them fit into one image that you have in your head. There is little basis for this.
3. As for mages' senses being restricted when they're inside vehicles, I guess it would be. But that makes no real difference. The lack of peripheral vision I have when I'm driving my truck doesn't keep me from driving it. The fact that it's too noisy for me to hear much going on outside doesn't keep me from driving it.
4. Let's look at mage skills for a minute...
Line Walkers- Pilot: Any (+2)
Mystics- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
Shifters- Pilot: Any except Jet Aircraft, Robots, and Tanks
TechnoWizard- Pilot: Any
Hunh, look at that! It looks like Line Walkers and TechnoWizards CAN pilot Robots! Along with anything else...
And it looks like even Mystics and Shifters can pilot normal aircraft, boats (including ships and other enclosed cabin versions), helecopters, Hovercraft (presumably including hover cars and hover trucks), and Trucks (including large cargo and transportation vehicles like eight to sixteen wheelded commercial trucks and multi-ton transports).
Doesn't say anything about them not liking to pilot any of these things.
Also note that NONE of the main book magic OCCs are restricted in their use of Pilot Related Skills. They can take all the skills to be a navigator or gunner on any vehicle.
I'm sure you'll stick to your claims, but they just don't pan out.
RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
Zer0 Kay wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.
Well, as my posts completely covered the multi-dimensional aspects of the discussion, belying the "cannot comprehend moving in another dimension" point in totality, this indicates the author of this "jibe" had read not a whit of what I'd written, and therefore was not in a position to be jibing me about anything.
If the above is only a jibe, then inverting it and tossing it back should not be considered a problem, and yet, I'm quite certain that doing so would not have been appreciated.
The Fifth Business wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
Hmm...you could see it that way however I beleive your point was still countered and this was ment as a jibe/joke/jest/pulling of the leg/taunt.
Well, as my posts completely covered the multi-dimensional aspects of the discussion, belying the "cannot comprehend moving in another dimension" point in totality, this indicates the author of this "jibe" had read not a whit of what I'd written, and therefore was not in a position to be jibing me about anything.
If the above is only a jibe, then inverting it and tossing it back should not be considered a problem, and yet, I'm quite certain that doing so would not have been appreciated.
This thread has been pretty tense at times, I've noticed. People have been arguing for a long time about the issue and the issue has become personal to some. In order to maintain the quality of the thread, people need to be more sensitive in taunting, and others need to be less sensitive when being taunted. Its not just you, RainOfSteel, many people have been disgruntled at times during the course of this thread.
But let's not concentrate on that. Let's think about why people are disagreeing with you. Even though you feel you have completely snuffed out the multidimensional argument, others have not lost faith in it. Perhaps you need to explain your side differently or more thoroughly. Try new examples and analogies. Or try disproving the other side's analogies and examples again.
Nobody has refuted my flooper example; maybe you could start there. Here is the revised example:
Take a Flooper R.C.C. character and put him in an MDC robot with the window open. He *floops* into another dimension and before he returns, we seal up the robot. Then he *floops* back into the robot. Does he succeed? Or is his teleportation terminus for some reason now outside the robot? Or is he anhilated?
Temporalmage wrote:The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.
Zer0 Kay wrote:.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.
Zer0 Kay wrote:3. Teleport: lesser's range is self or touch and it is supposed to be able to t-port your body weight plus a little extra. This does not give an area that can be teleported.
Dork Vader wrote:This is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends, some people just started posting in it, not knowing originally what it was, and now they have kept on posting in it, if only just because...
Temporalmage wrote:Killer Cyborg and ZerO Kay, gee guys you both seem so intent on saying that any ol mage can pilot robots or power armor if they want too, right? Then I got one teeny tiny question for ya... Why would they want too? One of you guys brought up the fact that mages are taught how to be mages. So why would someone spend all that time and energy learning how to cast spells just to spend more time and energy learning how to pilot a vehicle that is going to make his spell casting immaterial and irrelevant? Seems pretty retarded to me.
What I really like is the fact that you both seem so intent on picking apart that little bit, that you've both lost sight of everything else in that specific post.
By the books, the only spell that comes remotly close to saying that it allows a mage to teleport into a vehicle or robot is Mystic Portal.
Everything stated in the discription of Teleport Superior could be debated. The discription uses words like "target destination", "location", "Place", etc. All these could be taken to mean several differant things, to several differant peaple. Hence the length of this post in the first place. But remember the question that started this avalanche of posts. "Can one teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle". The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal. Any other answer is questionable at best when all the rules and definition geussing are taken into account.
Temporalmage wrote:What I'm saying is simple: Mages can't take Pilot: Robot/Power armor. (At least most magic OCC's can't), nor are they allowed mechanical or electrical skills that would give them familiarity with those types of vehicles.
RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
RainOfSteel wrote:Temporalmage wrote:The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.
Then you weren't reading the previous posts.
My version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that the phrase "magic can't penetrate" is a generic, catch-all statement, that states that all means and methods using magic can't get inside the skin of GR&Vs. This includes Mystic Portal. Why? Because it's magic, and the ruling says "magic can't". I do not narrowly define "penetrate" to mean physical conveyance through the physical armor via the ordinary three dimensions plus time, I've asserted I believe it refers to all possible methods, including multi-dimensional methods. (I also apply, in My Rifts Universe, the further definition that the BoM p.21 ruling applies to environmentally sealed MDC GR&V only, not to SDC versions; for which I have presented extensive justification.) I believe the BoM p.19 discussion restricting mages from casting magic out of GR or V further supports this version. If it can't go out, it can't go in . . . basically, an extension of consistency.
Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling (which I do not agree with) is that "penetrate" is a limiting descriptor that means one specific narrow type of magical activity, and that Teleport: Superior doesn't do that magical activity, and so the BoM p.21 doesn't apply to it (or Mystic Portal; or any other spell that looks likely), allowing Teleport: Superior to get people into GR&V. Even though the same spell is clearly prohibited (if you turn back one page in the BoM and read on page 19) from allowing a mage to teleport out, somehow, it still allows teleportation in. And also, even though a mage standing on the outside of a vehicle may glance at the person standing next to them, and use Teleport: Superior to put that person inside a GR or V; that mage then can't use Teleport: Superior to get that person back out.
Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that it be ignored entirely. (Which, you would think, would also cause the discussion on BoM p.19 restricting the casting magic while inside GR&Vs to go away as well . . . )
Zer0 Kay wrote:hmm we are talking about Dr. Ego here so you probably right. There, there is a jibe at Doom now lets see how he handles it.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"
Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
Temporalmage wrote:Killer Cyborg and ZerO Kay, gee guys you both seem so intent on saying that any ol mage can pilot robots or power armor if they want too, right? Then I got one teeny tiny question for ya... Why would they want too? One of you guys brought up the fact that mages are taught how to be mages. So why would someone spend all that time and energy learning how to cast spells just to spend more time and energy learning how to pilot a vehicle that is going to make his spell casting immaterial and irrelevant? Seems pretty retarded to me.
What I really like is the fact that you both seem so intent on picking apart that little bit, that you've both lost sight of everything else in that specific post.
By the books, the only spell that comes remotly close to saying that it allows a mage to teleport into a vehicle or robot is Mystic Portal.
Everything stated in the discription of Teleport Superior could be debated. The discription uses words like "target destination", "location", "Place", etc. All these could be taken to mean several differant things, to several differant peaple. Hence the length of this post in the first place. But remember the question that started this avalanche of posts. "Can one teleport into an environmentaly sealed vehicle". The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal. Any other answer is questionable at best when all the rules and definition geussing are taken into account.
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.
And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".
Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Dr. Doom III wrote:RainOfSteel seems to be the 2D stickman who cannot comprehend moving in another dimension.
Personal attacks are what remain when the main argument cannot be attacked successfully.
Observation =/= personal attack.
3 pages attempting to explain going around something in another dimension of movement and failing to get you to understand is a fact.
Zer0 Kay wrote:What exactly is the rule on p. 19?
BoM p.19 wrote:Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.
Zer0 Kay wrote:I thought it said magic cast inside can not effect targets outside.
Zer0 Kay wrote:How does that stop Dooms definition where the "target" location is only a reference to the desired point of appearance and is only in the mind of the caster so really does not effect the target itself?
Zer0 Kay wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.
And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".
I forgot about the 2nd ed rivision but I was counting all of the boxed sets as one other wise you end up with Basic, Advanced, Expert and Immortals. They were all still the same game just supplaments.
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:What exactly is the rule on p. 19?
It's been presented before, but here goes again, bold text is mine for empasis:BoM p.19 wrote:Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effect/damage to strike those inside the vehicle (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry.
Tyciol wrote:No, it's good. It breeds truth.Zer0 Kay wrote:Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:.5 is a we don't relly care about the fans that much but we need more money. Actually they would have gone through about 5 different versions. The original D&D, AD&D, Revised AD&D, 2ed. AD&D, 3ed AD&D and 3.5.
And there was a revision of the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, too. Plus the Basic--Immortals "D&D".
I forgot about the 2nd ed rivision but I was counting all of the boxed sets as one other wise you end up with Basic, Advanced, Expert and Immortals. They were all still the same game just supplaments.
The Basic, Expert, Champions, Masters, and Immortals series were an entirely different variant of the D&D line of games, a complete game in and of themselves. They were a simplified version of the rules intended to bring in new players who would then "advance" on to AD&D. It's was only sporadically supported, every time it seemed to start going somewhere, support would fade away, until it was allowed to die completely by converted it's entire setting into AD&D 2nd rules.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Tyciol wrote:No, it's good. It breeds truth.Zer0 Kay wrote:Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.
Wouldn't that be inbreeds truth? That was a jest ROS.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:Tyciol wrote:No, it's good. It breeds truth.Zer0 Kay wrote:Pretty bad when you argue against someone who is on the same side.
Wouldn't that be inbreeds truth? That was a jest ROS.
I'm not the one doing the breeding, inbreeding, or otherwise . . .
RainOfSteel wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:Dang fortunately the magical effect/damage is striking those inside it is teleporting them outside. Now that I see the scripture it is clear that the rule was meant for those idiots who try to cast direct fire or touch spells from the inside of a robot at people outside.
And now, if the rule only actually came out and just said that, wouldn't it be ever so much simpler?
Dork Vader wrote:"Dude, guess what, I beat the internet, the last guy was really hard...but it was totally worth it, I got some pr0n+1 and 255 Songs!"
RainOfSteel wrote:Temporalmage wrote:The only answer that isn't up for a debate, that couldn't be misconstrued any other way, is by using Mystic Portal.
Then you weren't reading the previous posts.
My version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that the phrase "magic can't penetrate" is a generic, catch-all statement, that states that all means and methods using magic can't get inside the skin of GR&Vs. This includes Mystic Portal. Why? Because it's magic, and the ruling says "magic can't". I do not narrowly define "penetrate" to mean physical conveyance through the physical armor via the ordinary three dimensions plus time, I've asserted I believe it refers to all possible methods, including multi-dimensional methods. (I also apply, in My Rifts Universe, the further definition that the BoM p.21 ruling applies to environmentally sealed MDC GR&V only, not to SDC versions; for which I have presented extensive justification.) I believe the BoM p.19 discussion restricting mages from casting magic out of GR or V further supports this version. If it can't go out, it can't go in . . . basically, an extension of consistency.
Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling (which I do not agree with) is that "penetrate" is a limiting descriptor that means one specific narrow type of magical activity, and that Teleport: Superior doesn't do that magical activity, and so the BoM p.21 doesn't apply to it (or Mystic Portal; or any other spell that looks likely), allowing Teleport: Superior to get people into GR&V. Even though the same spell is clearly prohibited (if you turn back one page in the BoM and read on page 19) from allowing a mage to teleport out, somehow, it still allows teleportation in. And also, even though a mage standing on the outside of a vehicle may glance at the person standing next to them, and use Teleport: Superior to put that person inside a GR or V; that mage then can't use Teleport: Superior to get that person back out.
Another version of the BoM p.21 ruling is that it be ignored entirely. (Which, you would think, would also cause the discussion on BoM p.19 restricting the casting magic while inside GR&Vs to go away as well . . . )