Atlantean Transformation and the Cosmic Forge

[Tinker Dragoon]

strictly speaking -- Can Atlanteans become Cosmo-knights?

I seem to remember that the Cosmic Forge transforms it's subjects,
and that they "can pass as their original race" but they aren't really that race anymore.

any thoughts?

I think that's strictly a GM's call.

True Atlanteans are immune to all forms of transformation, but the Cosmic Forge has godlike powers that could conceivably overrride such factors. In any event all powers and skills (including the use of magic tattoos, pyramids, seeing ley lines, etc.) possessed by the atlantean will be wiped away and replaced by those of the Cosmo Knight OCC, so the character will only look like an atlantean, so one should consider whether it's really worth the trouble.

[dakota]

True Atlanteans are immune to all forms of transformation, but the Cosmic Forge has godlike powers that could conceivably overrride such factors. In any event all powers and skills (including the use of magic tattoos, pyramids, seeing ley lines, etc.) possessed by the atlantean will be wiped away and replaced by those of the Cosmo Knight OCC, so the character will only look like an atlantean, so one should consider whether it's really worth the trouble.

I think this would apply in all cases. The transformation to cosmic knight would negate any previous abilities. They would retain their original appearance, but not their abilities.

[Borast]

What about super-powers, ala the Rifts Conversion Book 1, where Scholars and Adventurers can have super-powers?

the Atlantean Nomad is listed under Scholar & Adventurers in the Rifts Game Master Guide. Any problem with them having super-powers? (experiments, mutants etc)

For the Atlanteans...no, their "genes" would prevent gaining powers from random mutation or experiment. I believe the phrase in question in this reguard is "immune to transformation by magical or technological means."

However - it's been a while, and my book(s) are not in front of me... However, after a few generations of exposure to certain environment(s), I'd say they will loose this - since the "Atlaneans" in Scrapers can be mutated via random accident, or by deliberate means (and have been for many generations).

[Tinker Dragoon]

I'd say they will loose this - since the "Atlaneans" in Scrapers can be mutated via random accident, or by deliberate means (and have been for many generations).

nice call! I'd forgotten all about the relations of the Atlanteans to the supers of Skraypers.

That relationship is merely a hypothesis held by some True Atlanteans. As with the humans in Phase World and Wormwood, the presence of humans on Seeron is an unexplained anomaly.

[Mike Taylor]

In answer to the original question, I would say yes in the case of the Cosmic Forge. From a GM's standpoint, this is a great story element and wouldn't necessarily be unbalancing. However, I as a GM would be inclined to encourage the player of the Atlantean Cosmo-Knight to pick a humble previous life (for lack of a better term) as opposed to that of having been an Undead Slayer or similar, though a former Sunaj turned Cosmo-Knight might be interesting from an adventure seed point of view. Again, this is just because of my own personal quirks about character background.

[Svartalf]

I don't know why... I feel I've seen this very argument more than recently...

Since my position is the same as at the other place, and it is worth argumenting, here I go again.

a) we'll first state that "normal" Atlanteans, who have not become Tattooed Men, despite their various superhuman traits, are still not yet to be considered as supernatural creatures, which would in and of itself make them ineligible for Cosmo Knighthood and render the point moot

b) the Atlanteans are immune to any change of their physical shape ( shape, consistence/material, size) but not necessarily of their physiology. that is : their appearance can't be changed by so much as the thickness of the skin of their teeth (metamorphosis, transformation ritual, turning into a vampire); they are flesh and will never be anything else (turning to mist, petrification) ; nor can their size be altered. BUT their flesh can be made Mega Damage and their PPE augmented through the action of magic (when they are tattooed) and their system responds to such mutagenic treatments as the juicer process.

c) Since the transformation into a C K does not in the slightest alter the knight's physical appearance, only his "function" (the cosmic armor and weapon are not after all physical transformations of the person, but outwardly visible manifestations of his life force and Cosmic Power) it then become arguably possible that an Atlantean could become one.

d) the "Overwhelming Divine Power" of the Cosmic Forge and its ability to overcome even as near an absolute as an Atlantean's immunity to transformation can also be considered, but I deem this unnecessary, especially as TD, upon raising this argument, put another problem into the light :

e) does a C K lose his natural, or acquired racial abilities : of course, for an Atlantean, that represents a lot( marks of heritage, immunity to transformation?, vampire sense, knowledge of dimensional pyramids, ley line powers) but that's because Atlanteans are a special and powerful race. If you take more classical cases, would you deprive a Noro knight of their sensitive psionics? or a Wolfen of his nightvision and keen smell? (I forget the Wolfen's extra attack/rd and initiative bonus, but maybe they should be put in the smae package)

f) personnally, after a thorough re reading of the CK section in PhW, I see no logical reason to deprive the character of such... then again, a C K is already a powerful character, if you add powerful racial abilities... but we're going on into game balance, not pure logic. but, talking of game balance, remember that the sword cuts both ways... you just might *want* that fallen knight villain to have these Atlantean abilities...

g) Gadrin mentioned the possibility of mutant powers... well, if the rules officially allow for tattoos and juicer powers, and I'm willing to permit C K powers, lesser ones should be allowable too, but, just to stay safe and avoid tweaking the "no transformation" rule too much, I'd forbid those that entail gross physical change (APS, alter limbs, lycanthropy, etc)

h) Boras, you speak of "Atlanteans from Skraypers"... well, I'll be shooting myself in the foot there, but please note that while it is written that it is *believed* that seeronian humans are from a lost Atlantean clan, there is no hard data confirming this.: their attributes and life span are standard human, and their special abilities/powers (which only came about with the Tarlok plague) are , at least for the 7% that have intangibility or APS, not in keeping with the "no physical transformation" trait common to Atlanteans and the precise extent of which is the core of all this discussion ; nor do they have the high proportion of psionics or the affinity for magic prevalent among Atlanteans.

i) well... to finish about Mike's comment... there's the question about whether a tattooed man (vamp slayer or sunaj) is or not supernatural enough to forego eligibility to become a Knight... personally, I'd say yes, the same as for dragons, or even draconids phantoms or silhouettes... the same as I doubt the Forge would ever call on one of the Machine People... whell... those of course are my opinions, to be discussed later, and possibly in pv or on another forum

[Vrykolas2k]

I think the ones who have only say the marks of heritage probably could be transformed by the insanely powerful Cosmic Forge {which can do things even deities can't... ever hear of Odin creating something on par with a Cosmo-Knight? I think not...}. Then I predict they'll make Atlanteans and Catyr related and descended form The First or something... since even the infernal Mechanoids were Atlanteans...
{Sigh}.

[Svartalf]

However, Cosmo Knights are also supposed to be so different from their previous lives that they bear little relation to the beings they once were...so it also makes sense that an Atlantean wouldn't keep all their skills/abilities, but would instead embrace their new lives/skillsets as provided by the Forge. What they would retain would, I guess, be the GMs call...but I always thought the idea was they have left their former lives and identities behind, to serve the will of the Forge.

My $0.02.

well... that's where we are in complete disaccord, I'm afraid.
on one hand, while the official text goes on to say that the C K keeps his original appearance but is freed of the weaknesses of his mortal shell, being transformed into a supernatural juggenaut of cosmic power and all that. On the other, it says precisely nothing about those new traits superseding/replacing those of the knoghts race of origin. I have found precisely nothing to make me think so.

also, if the abilities are already there, why would such a supremely powerful being as the Forge suppress them? do they detract from the knight's dedication to his work or ability to perform it? No, rather the reverse. Should it be considered that the Forge is so heavy handed that it cannot preserve the former qualities of its new knight as it is creating him? I have no reason to believe it... if it's *that* powerful, why should it not have a fine touch too?

Also to be considered is the estrangement factor : a newly created C K is going to see huge changes taking place in his life. That is going to take quite some getting used to. If, in addition to being saddled to new powers and responsibility, and possibly a whole new environment, he is also changed in ways that he loses senses and abilities that he's had all his life, and that he regards as a natural part of himself... I feel that the repercussions on his general state of mind might just go the wrong way... and that it would make it all the more likely that he'd fall from having lost touch with the real universe of the normal people, or simply go insane (which I guess would cause him to fall as well) . Since I don't think the Forge wants its knights to fall, I do assume that it would actually do what it can to ease the change for them, and so would try to leave them just as like to what they used to be as possible while giving them the powers of their new calling. So, a Wolfen would keep his smell and sight, a noro would remain psychically sensitive, an Atlantean would still be attuned to magic and keep his marks of heritage... & so on & so forth

[Svartalf]

First off I would like to hello. Second I agree with Matt. The book is very cut and dry on this. Besides by allowing that a gm may be opening pandora's box. You would have players saying my character was transformed by Ra to right the vampire plague.

well... hi to you too... but then, how do you explain that KS himself came up with the concept of an Atlantean being transmuted into an MDC bieng by enough tattos? How do you explain that he didn't veto the section on Atlantean as juicers in je juicer book (actually I suspect that not only did he not veto it, he added it himself right over whatever Carella had written on his own)?

and matt... it *does* leave a real HUGE lot of wiggle room... since the Atlantean, as has already been copiously mentioned, is * not* changed in appearance... so there is no such physical transformation as an Atlantean is expressly immune to. can you pinpoint to me precisely the basic difference which makes that, the subjects physical shape and appearance remaining constant , enhancement by chemicals is possible, enhancement by magic tattoos is too, but enhancement by Cosmic Power would not be?

As for the Pandora's box, it was opened the moment K S put in such MDC creatures as borgs and dragon hatchlings as player characters in rifts

and as for the "Ra transformed my character" bit... that's a nice bit of background... now YOU as DM are entitled to say, "no, I don't want anything like that in my campaign"... the same as the C K is conspicuously labeled as an "optional player character, subject to game master approval"

this thread, obviously, assumes that the GM will approve the possibility of a CK character, and explores some of the limits of the concept.
(it is also assumed by me that it pertains to player material, since when a GM really wants something in his game, there is no quibbling he just does it, and too bad if it doesn't follow the usual rules applied to player characters... actually, I'm one of those exceptions who tries to cook the gander in the same sauce as the goose... hence my quibbling a lot)

[Vrykolas2k]

First off I would like to hello. Second I agree with Matt. The book is very cut and dry on this. Besides by allowing that a gm may be opening pandora's box. You would have players saying my character was transformed by Ra to right the vampire plague.

well... hi to you too... but then, how do you explain that KS himself came up with the concept of an Atlantean being transmuted into an MDC bieng by enough tattos? How do you explain that he didn't veto the section on Atlantean as juicers in je juicer book (actually I suspect that not only did he not veto it, he added it himself right over whatever Carella had written on his own)?

and matt... it *does* leave a real HUGE lot of wiggle room... since the Atlantean, as has already been copiously mentioned, is * not* changed in appearance... so there is no such physical transformation as an Atlantean is expressly immune to. can you pinpoint to me precisely the basic difference which makes that, the subjects physical shape and appearance remaining constant , enhancement by chemicals is possible, enhancement by magic tattoos is too, but enhancement by Cosmic Power would not be?

As for the Pandora's box, it was opened the moment K S put in such MDC creatures as borgs and dragon hatchlings as player characters in rifts

and as for the "Ra transformed my character" bit... that's a nice bit of background... now YOU as DM are entitled to say, "no, I don't want anything like that in my campaign"... the same as the C K is conspicuously labeled as an "optional player character, subject to game master approval" and yes I do hold gms to word of action as well...


this thread, obviously, assumes that the GM will approve the possibility of a CK character, and explores some of the limits of the concept.
(it is also assumed by me that it pertains to player material, since when a GM really wants something in his game, there is no quibbling he just does it, and too bad if it doesn't follow the usual rules applied to player characters... actually, I'm one of those exceptions who tries to cook the gander in the same sauce as the goose... hence my quibbling a lot)

I personally always limit my NPCs the same way the books limit the PCs, and tend to leave groups where that doesn't happen... I got tired of games where ever NPC you run into has so many kewl powerz they just run rough-shod over the PCs... I am a rules lawyer I guess, both as gm and player. I used to not care at all about rules, but one too many "exceptions" screwing me over gave me a 180 degree turnaround. So now I'm pretty much a die-hard by-the-rules-and-word-of-action freak lol...
At any rate, I'd allow an Atlantean to be a CK as long as he didn't have enough tattoos to be MDC before the transformation. Why? It specifically states that the Forge can make a CK out of any non-supernatural being... and after they get turned into MDC beings, Atlanteans are considered magical/ supernatural beings.
As for whether their tattoos would still work, I don't know... but I'd allow that exception to the "non-transformation" rule since the Forge is more powerful than most {if not all} gods.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

well... hi to you too... but then, how do you explain that KS himself came up with the concept of an Atlantean being transmuted into an MDC bieng by enough tattos? How do you explain that he didn't veto the section on Atlantean as juicers in je juicer book (actually I suspect that not only did he not veto it, he added it himself right over whatever Carella had written on his own)?

Becoming a juicer isn't a "transformation" in the sense that the notes on Atlanteans imply, which is to say having one's very nature altered (such as from S.D.C. to M.D.C. or shapechanged into a dragno.) Becoming a juicer is a drug enhancement that doesn't "transform" anything in that sense, and ruling that Atlanteans can't become juicers would be the same as saying they can't be "transformed" into addicts no matter how much crack they smoke.

[Vrykolas2k]

well... hi to you too... but then, how do you explain that KS himself came up with the concept of an Atlantean being transmuted into an MDC bieng by enough tattos? How do you explain that he didn't veto the section on Atlantean as juicers in je juicer book (actually I suspect that not only did he not veto it, he added it himself right over whatever Carella had written on his own)?

Becoming a juicer isn't a "transformation" in the sense that the notes on Atlanteans imply, which is to say having one's very nature altered (such as from S.D.C. to M.D.C. or shapechanged into a dragno.) Becoming a juicer is a drug enhancement that doesn't "transform" anything in that sense, and ruling that Atlanteans can't become juicers would be the same as saying they can't be "transformed" into addicts no matter how much crack they smoke.

Lmao.
{Wipes laugh-tears from eyes.}
However, they can become mega-juicers... which makes them MDC beings... of a supernatural variety.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

However, they can become mega-juicers... which makes them MDC beings... of a supernatural variety.

Anything that involves an actual transformation of their flesh, other than the tatoos, I'd disallow. There you are talking about an actual change, be it mystical or genetic. Pumping someone full of drugs that play off their NATURAL metabolism to the point where it burns out isn't a transformation. Pumping someone full of drugs, magic, whatever that causes changes to the cellular structure, on the other hand, most certainly is.

[Svartalf]

well, Quantum Dragon, thank you for stating the fact of things as the rules go so clearly.

If anybody can explain in what way transformation into a C K is fundamentally different from transformation into a Tattooed Man, I'll think again as to whether Atlanteans are not eligible to become members of that class...

BTW matt... Atlanteans can become *any* kind of tattoed man, just that the basic T man,, Monster man and Maxi Man OCCs are unlikely to be inflicted on them, if only because so few are in Splugorth slavery.

[csyphrett]

Undead Slayers aren't transformed Atlanteans. They look like it because of the increase in physical power, but they are not. All alanteans do the same thing whether US's or not.

And no Alanteans can't be cosmic knights unless the forge is a gm fiat device.

CES

[Vrykolas2k]

well, Quantum Dragon, thank you for stating the fact of things as the rules go so clearly.

If anybody can explain in what way transformation into a C K is fundamentally different from transformation into a Tattooed Man, I'll think again as to whether Atlanteans are not eligible to become members of that class...

BTW matt... Atlanteans can become *any* kind of tattoed man, just that the basic T man,, Monster man and Maxi Man OCCs are unlikely to be inflicted on them, if only because so few are in Splugorth slavery.

Agreed; I agree with all of Quantum Dragon's points, and that True Atlanteans CAN become any of the T-Men... however, rembember that Chiang-Ku can create T-Men of various sorts, as I am sure can True Atlantean Alchemists... so an Atlantean wouldn't have to be Splugorth slave for that...

[Svartalf]

[ rembember that Chiang-Ku can create T-Men of various sorts, as I am sure can True Atlantean Alchemists... so an Atlantean wouldn't have to be Splugorth slave for that...

Fully agreed. except that Atlanteans tattooed into T M status by chiang ku or Atlantean alchemists are EXTREMELY likely to be Vampire Slayers (or perhaps Monster Slayers if Manoan) rather than the other possible varieties

[Vrykolas2k]

And another thing... if some-one REALLY wants to play an Atlantean Cosmo-Knight, what are the real reasons for it, for instance, does the player just want a character with more kewl powerz {like a CK who can use tattoos}, or does he have a cool reason for doing so? Since there is a difference between kewl and cool...

[Dr. Doom III]

b) the Atlanteans are immune to any change of their physical shape ( shape, consistence/material, size) but not necessarily of their physiology. that is : their appearance can't be changed by so much as the thickness of the skin of their teeth (metamorphosis, transformation ritual, turning into a vampire); they are flesh and will never be anything else (turning to mist, petrification) ; nor can their size be altered. BUT their flesh can be made Mega Damage and their PPE augmented through the action of magic (when they are tattooed) and their system responds to such mutagenic treatments as the juicer process.

I think this one has it.

[Svartalf]

Which is more powerful, the genetics of the Atlantean? or the magic of the cosmos?

Generally speaking, magic bends and shapes reality to whatever ends it needs.

wrong question. as shown up there, and given the fact that Atlanteans are not Supernatural Beings, there's no basic impossibility (or even implausibility) in a few bein chosen by the Forge... except the GM dependent fact that it might be ruled that this adventurous and powerful OCC/RCC prone race does not need to be forge powered to become powerful and help the universe.

If I GM'd and were asked for it, I'd judge the case upon my evaluation of the player's ability and tendency to munchkinnery... If you mistakenly grant such power to a munchkin, you can usually manoeuver him into falling and take him down a couple notches too...

[cornholioprime]

What about super-powers, ala the Rifts Conversion Book 1, where Scholars and Adventurers can have super-powers?

the Atlantean Nomad is listed under Scholar & Adventurers in the Rifts Game Master Guide. Any problem with them having super-powers? (experiments, mutants etc)

For the Atlanteans...no, their "genes" would prevent gaining powers from random mutation or experiment. I believe the phrase in question in this reguard is "immune to transformation by magical or technological means."

However - it's been a while, and my book(s) are not in front of me... However, after a few generations of exposure to certain environment(s), I'd say they will loose this - since the "Atlaneans" in Scrapers can be mutated via random accident, or by deliberate means (and have been for many generations).

The "Atlaneans" in Skraypers, simliar to the "Atlanees" on the Mechanoid Homeworld, eventually lost those Powers thorugh generations of Breeding. Unless mistaken, the Atlanteans also get at least some of thier powers thorugh their tattoos. Presumably, if one were to forget how to make the Marks of Heritage and other Atlantean Tattoos, then the 'Race' of True Atlanteans would be bred out after only a few generations. Unfortunately for all of us, KevSim has NEVER told us just how much of Being a True Atlantean is Mystic Ceremony, and how much of it is genetic..........

[cornholioprime]

Which is more powerful, the genetics of the Atlantean? or the magic of the cosmos?

Generally speaking, magic bends and shapes reality to whatever ends it needs.

Kind of a 'false' Question there. The true Question should be "Which is stronger: The Rules of Magic regarding the Atlanteans, or the capabiliites of the Cosmic Forge?" In answering that, we have at least two considerations to think of here.

A]]First, NONE of us have any really good idea of what the Cosmic Forge is empowered and empowered with. Is is Magic? Super Science? or both?? The Text behind the Forge seems to imply that it is the pinnacle of Super-Science. If it does affect the Laws of Physics exclusively, it would be almost powerless to force changes upon Magic. This could explain in part why CKs are so vulnerable to Magic, and why it does not recruit SN Beings to become CKs; it probably cannot. Surely in all the millenia that it has existed, there must have been at least one SN Creature worthy of Cosmo-Knighthood, if the Forge wanted one and was capable of forcing such a Transfornmation

B]]Second, in the Rifts Universe, EVERYTHING bows down to Magickal Forces. Even Xy, greatest of the Old Ones, could not ignore the Rules of Magic which changed his alignment and stripped him of his Old One-Level Powers. I would guess, for example, that even the Cosmic Forge could not destroy a Vampire unless it used Wood, Silver, Sunlight, etc., or destroy a Rune Weapon without a Scathach Druid; for all its Power, it would still have to 'obey' the Rules of Magic for, say, killing a Vampire. Or destroying a Zombie. Or unmaking a Rune Weapon.

Or, for that matter, attempting to go up against the 'Transformation Prohibition' under which a True Atlantean exists...the Rules of Magic for that RCC, if you will.

For the record, I leave the debate over what constitutes a Transformation to other people, but I do note that an Atlantean transformed into a CK not only becomes MDC, but MDC which is also highly resistant to energy. and I further point out that the Spell "Petrification" leaves the body in the same Humanoid shape as before, just like a Cosmo-Knight Transformation (often) does, but KevSim doesn't allow THAT kind of Transformation to happen to True Atlanteans, either.....

[Sir_Spirit]

Undead Slayers aren't transformed Atlanteans. They look like it because of the increase in physical power, but they are not.

No they really are. They go from being NOT Supernatural to being supernatural. Their increased physical power is a sign of it.

All alanteans do the same thing whether US's or not.

No, different atlantians do different things.

And no Alanteans can't be cosmic knights unless the forge is a gm fiat device.

How is the Forge NOT a "GM fiat device"?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

think only demons,dragon and Promethean are the only ones exceptions, for reasons unknown, and its states every race in the three galaxies have been chosen by the cosmic forge

[Aramanthus]

I see this came back from the dead thread area!

[Svartalf]

Let's burn the peasant at the stake, he's too skilled a necromancer by far.

[asajosh]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that Atlanteans "cannot be physically transformed..."
Someone mentioned a great point tho, Phase World was printed AFTER Atlantis. And we all know how fond PB is of tweaking canon from book to book. So what say we look at this from the "more current data" presented in Phase World, specifically who can and cannot become a Cosmo Knight.

On page 99 of PW, under the heading "Becoming a Cosmo Knight":
"...creatures from all walks of life... noro, wolfen, kreegor, human... the only exceptions seem to be supernatural creatures like dragons or prometheans..."

I'd rule that YES Atlanteans can become Cosmo Knights wthe the following unique restriction: Any Tattoos they have are now just ink - no magical powers.
And of course follow all the other restrictions for changing, like no magic or psionics, etc.

[Aramanthus]

I remember reading that line is the PW book. I'd have to reread the paragraph again. I'm sure this is going o spark a lot of response from the regulars.

[Vrykolas2k]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that Atlanteans "cannot be physically transformed..."
Someone mentioned a great point tho, Phase World was printed AFTER Atlantis. And we all know how fond PB is of tweaking canon from book to book. So what say we look at this from the "more current data" presented in Phase World, specifically who can and cannot become a Cosmo Knight.

On page 99 of PW, under the heading "Becoming a Cosmo Knight":
"...creatures from all walks of life... noro, wolfen, kreegor, human... the only exceptions seem to be supernatural creatures like dragons or prometheans..."

I'd rule that YES Atlanteans can become Cosmo Knights wthe the following unique restriction: Any Tattoos they have are now just ink - no magical powers.
And of course follow all the other restrictions for changing, like no magic or psionics, etc.

I'd let the tattoos work.
I let them work on the Fallen too, and if the Fallen was a T-Man/Woman before the Forge chose them, then the tats are what they have to work with... no spells or psionics.

[Aramanthus]

I still have to double check it myself.