Question of the Week: Cosmic Forge vs. In'Valian Curse

[cornholioprime]

A Response/Question to a Post that Aegis posted in another Thread.

Aegis was curious to know what would happen to an In'Valian if the Cosmic Forge (CF) wanted to use one.

I take the Question further. Please consider the following points:

A]] One could easily speculate that the Cosmic Forge doesn't select Supernatural (SN) Creatures is because it cannot alter them. In all the millenia since it was created, surely it must have found at least one Supernatural Creature worthy of being a Cosmo-Knight (CK).

Wiping a Character's memories so that (s)he cannot use his or her Spcial Abilities is one thing. Altering a SN Creature to serve the purpose of the Forge is quite another.

*****

B]]The In'Valian Plague, for those of you in the dark, is a Super-Supernatural Plague that affects ALL In'Valian, EVERYWHERE, even if they were never born on the In'valian Planet. Every single Technological and Magical means known has been tried and failed. (For the purposes of this discussion, I have looked through the "Pantheons of the Megaverse" and "Gods and Dragons" Books, and can tell you that of all those forces listed, maybe Thoth, Zurvan, and Belimar the Dwarf could work the Magicks necessary to dispel the Curse; and even then, they'd probably have to create some sort of complex Ritual, rather than Spell).

And so, we have our Intellectual Question of the Week.

1) Do you think the Forge can itself overcome the Curse completely??

2) Or do you feel that the Forge would make the In'Valian a CK, but leave his body in the same physical appearance (that is to say, it make him a CK, but the Curse remains, although the In'valian is now immune to all effects exept the deformed body)???

3) Based on the premise/theorem laid out above (that the CF cannot supplant SN Forces), do you think the Forge would not choose the In'Valian at all if it could not counteract the Plague????

4) What do you think happens to In'Valians who were CKs long before the Curse??? Does it override their CK Status, and if so, do they also become one of the "wasted" -still CK, but now hideous???

And finally, a slight tangential Question. Due to the SPECIAL nature of their Plague and the fact that it affects all of them everywhere, should the In'valians be considered some sort of quasi-Supernatural Creature themselves, due to the fact that some of the innate 'Abilities' of this RCC now includes lengthened Lifespan and a deformed body due to a Magic Curse???

[Nekira Sudacne]

it could easily overcome it.

[cornholioprime]

it could easily overcome it.

Where such super spells as "Restoration" and the like have failed before it???

I'm not deliberately trying to create an argument here, but isn't there something special about a Plague that resisted the best efforts of both Tech and Magic??This ain't some minor Faerie Curse or Taboo. I mean, on the UWW, they used every means of Magic known to Man...err..Elf (short of asking a Deity to attempt Deific-Level healing), and failed. I point once again to my thesis that the Forge isn't just refusing to make SN Creatures because it doesn't want to. I now believe that the Forge doesn't pick supernatural Creatures, and that Cosmo-Knights are vulnerable to Magic, because the Forge is essentially powerless against Magic (After all, why not just convert a worthy SN Creature into a Cosmo-Knight, if the Forge wants one, and wipe out its SN Abilities and Characteristics ???):?

P.S. If I could be shown instances where the Forge has supplanted Mystical Forces, I would appreciate it, and be willing to retract my thesis.

[cornholioprime]

I could've sworn somebody posted this once before.

Actually I did that roughly 8 to 10 months ago. I think everyone who posted said that indeed the forge could overcome the curse.

I vote for the power of the forge. My biggest argument is that it simply has been shown to do more than that curse could do. The curse affected each of the In'vailan even those to be born. Ok that is powerful. BUT the forge with but one wish of the one was able to instantly destroy all that the first had accomplished extinguishing live on thousands to millons of worlds, not to mention worlds themselves. That shows power beyond comprehension.

As to the power source of the cosmic forge I would have to say its at least partially magic in nature. Remember they are able to take beings with as little as 1 ppe and form them into a super being who has hundreds of ppe points. There isnt anything technological which can do that. Just think of it like this the forge is imbuing some object (the knight) with ppe like a talisman, and we know that no technological force can create a ppe talisman. It is insinuated that the Knights weakness being of magic is purposly created weakens or as its said in the book a "kink" in the knights armor. Of course more proof of the forge being magic oriented would be the power of the forge to instantly strip a knight of its powers at any time and any where in the megaverse. Just think about that it knows that a single knight anywhere (you cant get anywhere away from it) if you violated or oversteped your bounds and strips you of your power. It takes half of the ppe back and strips them of their other superpowers. How could any thing tech oriented have that kind of power on its own.

I think from all the information on the Cosmo Knights and the Cosmic Forge its can be safly assumed that they are creations of magic. ANd the forge has beyond the scope magical or any other kind of power. More than a single curse from another being. Remember they have only looked to mortals (well some are minor supernatural beings as well) for a cure to the curse. But how does one find, no less approach a true Deity with the request for them to do something for a mere lowly being. Of course a few of my characters wouldnt have a problem doing that, but they are usually too gung ho or just a little crazy.

Aegis

Unteresting argument inthe Forge vs. the Curse. But thus far, thw Forge hasn't really shown any Supernatursl Powers; in fact, I can easily explain all of the various Powers that the Forge has manifested thus far in the realm of Physics (or at least, sci-fi Physics, anyway).

[cornholioprime]

I think so.

I could've sworn somebody posted this once before.

Yes, Gadrin, Aegis has just reported that his own fecund (HA!!) mind had asked this Question long ago.....

[cornholioprime]

I could've sworn somebody posted this once Actually I did that roughly 8 to 10 months ago. I think everyone who posted said that indeed the forge could overcome the curse.

Curses!! Ya beat me to it!!

BUT the forge with but one wish of the one was able to instantly destroy all that the first had accomplished extinguishing live on thousands to millons of worlds, not to mention worlds themselves. That shows power beyond comprehension.

Understood. That Forge, she's right powerful....but this act isn't anything that Technology can't duplicate. I figure that if I'm the Forge, I can 'talk' to all the (Physical) Matter on those Worlds and 'ask' it to self-destruct....

As to the power source of the cosmic forge I would have to say its at least partially magic in nature. Remember they are able to take beings with as little as 1 ppe and form them into a super being who has hundreds of ppe points. There isnt anything technological which can do that. Just think of it like this the forge is imbuing some object (the knight) with ppe like a talisman, and we know that no technological force can create a ppe talisman.

Actually, PPE is 'neutral' Energy, in all living things; it is not intrinsically tied to either the Natural or the Supernatural, even though Mystics, of course, use prmarily PPE and Psychics use primarily ISP. An enhanced PPE Base is usually the sign of a Mystic or Supernatural Creature, but getting an increased PPE Base doesn't guarantee that you are now a SN being

Of course more proof of the forge being magic oriented would be the power of the forge to instantly strip a knight of its powers at any time and any where in the megaverse. Just think about that it knows that a single knight anywhere (you cant get anywhere away from it) if you violated or oversteped your bounds and strips you of your power. It takes half of the ppe back and strips them of their other superpowers. How could any thing tech oriented have that kind of power on its own.

The Forge itself is said to be capable of piercing/being outside of SpaceTime, as even the First themselves could do, a long explored idea in both sci-fi and the real world (if we can find a way to get around Hawking's Equations, which say that we need the energy output of several stars at once to achieve the necessary Quantum Effects, then we will have real-world StarGates that will be potentially unbound by physical Distance.....or Time). This effectively means that the Forge could be reading the Knights' minds...or could be, effectively, right there alongside them.

I think from all the information on the Cosmo Knights and the Cosmic Forge its can be safly assumed that they are creations of magic.

ANd the forge has beyond the scope magical or any other kind of power.

In Rifts, there are only three Power Sources: Physical/Natural, Psionic/Natural, and Magical/Supernatural.

More [raw power] than a single curse from another being.

When it comes to Magic, it's usually a matter of knowing what force counteracts/nullifies what Magic, and not the Power Levels of one compared to the other. Just ask that Platoon of heavily armed and armoured Dead Boys what they think of battling even a single, solitary Vamp, especially if don't have any Wood or Silver handy, or worse, don't know what they're up against. Likewise, the vast amounts of power undoubtedly wielded by the Forge are not in and of themselves a surefire bet to dispel or overcome the Curse.

Remember they have only looked to mortals (well some are minor supernatural beings as well) for a cure to the curse. But how does one find, no less approach a true Deity with the request for them to do something for a mere lowly being.

Agreed. Of course, I brought up the names Thoth, Zurvan, and Belimar the Dwarf as a way of possibly, eventually devising a Cure; and I'm still not sure that any God(dess) can cure the Plague on even a single individual, much less remove the Curse.

Love your Arguments, though.

[Dr. Doom III]

Find the forge and make a wish.
Poof cured.

A Cosmo Knight would be "cured" while powered up but not when he wasn't.

[cornholioprime]

Find the forge and make a wish.
Poof cured.

A Cosmo Knight would be "cured" while powered up but not when he wasn't.

That would be awesome and creepy at the same time!! I'd NEVER power down if it were me!!!

[cornholioprime]

any god can temporarily remove a curse. Even the worst one.
doing it permamently would require a god of immense power. Most Megaversal gods are just not strong enough
the Earth gods from SPirit West are more then enough to cure the invalians- if they ever so wanted.

The American Indian Gods...the Pantheon with the guy who walks around with a Fruit Cart?!??!?!?

I don't care if his Fruit Cart is +7 to hit!!!!

Real Megaversal Powerhouses, those......

[cornholioprime]

Look at their levels, and their domains. the fact that they adopted the amierican indians as their people is Meaningless. the average level for these gods combined is like 70

Not so sure that Combined Power Level makes that much of a Difference. And let us all hope that the Creature who has the 10-mile Eye isn't part of a Pantheon of his own!!! That dude could hold the Artifact in one its Tentacles, if the rest of its body is to Scale!!!!!

[Sir_Spirit]

First off I want to make a correction.
The Curse that affects the In'valian is NOT a "Super Supernatural" curse.
No where does it state this.
While quite powerful, you could say that it is a deific curse.
Or supernatural curse. That's it.

BUT the forge with but one wish of the one was able to instantly destroy all that the first had accomplished extinguishing live on thousands to millons of worlds, not to mention worlds themselves. That shows power beyond comprehension.

Understood. That Forge, she's right powerful....but this act isn't anything that Technology can't duplicate. I figure that if I'm the Forge, I can 'talk' to all the (Physical) Matter on those Worlds and 'ask' it to self-destruct....

It wouldn't matter WHAt the pwero was tech magic psychic etc....
At the Forges level power it simply no longer matters.
"Any technology suficiantly advanced becomes effectively magic"

Some sci-fi writer said that and here it holds very true.

As to the power source of the cosmic forge I would have to say its at least partially magic in nature. Remember they are able to take beings with as little as 1 ppe and form them into a super being who has hundreds of ppe points. There isnt anything technological which can do that. Just think of it like this the forge is imbuing some object (the knight) with ppe like a talisman, and we know that no technological force can create a ppe talisman.

Actually, PPE is 'neutral' Energy, in all living things; it is not intrinsically tied to either the Natural or the Supernatural, even though Mystics, of course, use prmarily PPE and Psychics use primarily ISP. An enhanced PPE Base is usually the sign of a Mystic or Supernatural Creature, but getting an increased PPE Base doesn't guarantee that you are now a SN being

The latter I can agree with but not the red.
I wouldn't asy it's "neutral" as such. And that it is intrisicly connected to the SN as I know no SN without it.

Of course more proof of the forge being magic oriented would be the power of the forge to instantly strip a knight of its powers at any time and any where in the megaverse. Just think about that it knows that a single knight anywhere (you cant get anywhere away from it) if you violated or oversteped your bounds and strips you of your power. It takes half of the ppe back and strips them of their other superpowers. How could any thing tech oriented have that kind of power on its own.

The Forge itself is said to be capable of piercing/being outside of SpaceTime, as even the First themselves could do, a long explored idea in both sci-fi and the real world (if we can find a way to get around Hawking's Equations, which say that we need the energy output of several stars at once to achieve the necessary Quantum Effects, then we will have real-world StarGates that will be potentially unbound by physical Distance.....or Time). This effectively means that the Forge could be reading the Knights' minds...or could be, effectively, right there alongside them.

So? This would just make it all the more likely that it could overcome the Curse. Not being bound by our laws of magic.

ANd the forge has beyond the scope magical or any other kind of power.

In Rifts, there are only three Power Sources: Physical/Natural, Psionic/Natural, and Magical/Supernatural.

Or metanatural if it's outside the time and space it's outside of Rifts.

More [raw power] than a single curse from another being.

When it comes to Magic, it's usually a matter of knowing what force counteracts/nullifies what Magic, and not the Power Levels of one compared to the other......Likewise, the vast amounts of power undoubtedly wielded by the Forge are not in and of themselves a surefire bet to dispel or overcome the Curse.

That's a fairly good argument. Except that one could argue that the forge remakes the CK's from what they were into it's servants. And that as the curse doesn't prevent them from transforming into, say, a butterfly, then it can't stop them from becoming a CK. And when thus transformed they stop being an In'Valian and thsu are no longer subject to it's curse.

Remember they have only looked to mortals (well some are minor supernatural beings as well) for a cure to the curse. But how does one find, no less approach a true Deity with the request for them to do something for a mere lowly being.

Agreed. Of course, I brought up the names Thoth, Zurvan, and Belimar the Dwarf as a way of possibly, eventually devising a Cure; and I'm still not sure that any God(dess) can cure the Plague on even a single individual, much less remove the Curse.

Why not, Gods CAN cure curses and plagues.
I doubt the In'Valians, as a race, have much faith in "gods" but that doesn't mean that a God wouldn't cure a specific member.

[Nekira Sudacne]

it could easily overcome it.

Where such super spells as "Restoration" and the like have failed before it???

I'm not deliberately trying to create an argument here, but isn't there something special about a Plague that resisted the best efforts of both Tech and Magic??This ain't some minor Faerie Curse or Taboo. I mean, on the UWW, they used every means of Magic known to Man...err..Elf (short of asking a Deity to attempt Deific-Level healing), and failed. I point once again to my thesis that the Forge isn't just refusing to make SN Creatures because it doesn't want to. I now believe that the Forge doesn't pick supernatural Creatures, and that Cosmo-Knights are vulnerable to Magic, because the Forge is essentially powerless against Magic (After all, why not just convert a worthy SN Creature into a Cosmo-Knight, if the Forge wants one, and wipe out its SN Abilities and Characteristics ???):?

P.S. If I could be shown instances where the Forge has supplanted Mystical Forces, I would appreciate it, and be willing to retract my thesis.

The cosmic forge is the kind of thing that could wipe out a patheon. it could KILL Zavior with but a thought.

and the reason it dosn't give powers to supernatural creatures isn't that it CAN'T, but it CHOOSES not to.

it's not DESERVING to be a cosmo-knight, it's NEEDING to be a cosmo-knight.

even minor supernatural beings can become a champion on their own. it's the mortals that need the help.

[Guest]

the seljuk part definitely makes precedent for the forge having the ability at least to interact with magic.

the fact that seljuk used to be great mages (man that is a funny image) and now just being hulking beings capable of becoming cosmo-knights just helps muddy the waters a bit more.


btw, am I the only one who pictures the being that cursed the invalians as either a little kid looking through a magnifying glass, or a comically proportioned being stuck to the other side of that 10 mile eye?

[Sir_Spirit]

btw, am I the only one who pictures the being that cursed the invalians as either a little kid looking through a magnifying glass, or a comically proportioned being stuck to the other side of that 10 mile eye?

You too, eh?

[Anthanatos]

Follow up to this line of questioning: What would a "restored" In'Valian look like? What would their stats be?

[Curbludgeon]

Is 15 years a record?

[SpiritInterface]

From the write up on the Forge it can unmake the Curse and heal those afflicted.

[Fenris2020]

What about those who were already Cosmo-knights?

[Axelmania]

instead of Cosmo-Knights they should just serve Hades as Greater Demonic Mortals.

[SpiritInterface]

What about those who were already Cosmo-knights?

The curse wouldn't have effected them, just because they look like an In'vil doesn't mean they that they are.

[Fenris2020]

What about those who were already Cosmo-knights?

The curse wouldn't have effected them, just because they look like an In'vil doesn't mean they that they are.

Well, yes, they are In'vil.
Just like any race that takes any other OCC.

[Nuristas]

it could easily overcome it.

Where such super spells as "Restoration" and the like have failed before it???

it's not DESERVING to be a cosmo-knight, it's NEEDING to be a cosmo-knight.

I think pretty much sums it up. You are not chosen cause you would be the ultimate champion, the chosen one to save the galaxy. You are chosen because a champion is needed and you fit the bill.
The reason so many cosmo-knights have fallen is that they are not perfect choices given any and every chance to succeed. They are needed and they are empowered and when they stray, they fall.

The cosmic forge as it is written transcends most any power level we have seen in Rifts, which is scary in a sense. How would it rate compared to the Old Ones and beings of said power?

[Axelmania]

I wonder if there could be In'Valian Nightbane or In'Valian Guardians