Do you support the Coalition? Come vote.

[grandmaster z0b]

One only has to look under my name to know that I have no love for the CS. I do think that a lot of these arguments are moot as the desrciptions and data of the fictional world provided for us by KS and PB change too often to allow us a rational argument. For example, the CS in the Main book are portrayed as an ignorant, evil, Nazi-like state, whilst Lazlo and Tolkeen are portrayed as Utopian societies. These are also the only real safe places in North America. As later books are published by different authors, the feel of the CS and North America changes significantly. Tolkeen is now just as bad as the CS, and there are many other powerful nations and cities, so it is no longer so easy to see the CS as missguided but the only hope for humanity (actually I never saw that anyway but I could understand peoples' justification better). My point is that when you start arguing about the "facts", "data" and the morality of a fictional (and sometimes poorly conceived) government, it gets very subjective.

My personal opinion is that whilst the CS may keep NA relatively stable, all dictatorships inevitably collapse, either from within, from external pressures or both. When that happens the people under CS protection will all of a sudden find themselves free but unprotected. However something else will take it's place and hopefully they would have the common sense to use all the resources available including magic.

[cornholioprime]

One only has to look under my name to know that I have no love for the CS. I do think that a lot of these arguments are moot as the desrciptions and data of the fictional world provided for us by KS and PB change too often to allow us a rational argument. For example, the CS in the Main book are portrayed as an ignorant, evil, Nazi-like state, whilst Lazlo and Tolkeen are portrayed as Utopian societies. These are also the only real safe places in North America. As later books are published by different authors, the feel of the CS and North America changes significantly. Tolkeen is now just as bad as the CS, and there are many other powerful nations and cities, so it is no longer so easy to see the CS as missguided but the only hope for humanity (actually I never saw that anyway but I could understand peoples' justification better). My point is that when you start arguing about the "facts", "data" and the morality of a fictional (and sometimes poorly conceived) government, it gets very subjective.

My personal opinion is that whilst the CS may keep NA relatively stable, all dictatorships inevitably collapse, either from within, from external pressures or both. When that happens the people under CS protection will all of a sudden find themselves free but unprotected. However something else will take it's place and hopefully they would have the common sense to use all the resources available including magic.

Agreed.

[grandmaster z0b]

While I don't agree with everything they do they do help protect a large number of people form outsiders that could do them harm. Even though they hate non-humans they have laws that protect the weak and thats good enough for me.

Don't forget the genocide, slavery and book burning.

If the CS wasn't there, maybe another kingdom would have filled that niche without the savage dictatorship.

[grandmaster z0b]

While I don't agree with everything they do they do help protect a large number of people form outsiders that could do them harm. Even though they hate non-humans they have laws that protect the weak and thats good enough for me.

Don't forget the genocide, slavery and book burning.

If the CS wasn't there, maybe another kingdom would have filled that niche without the savage dictatorship.

Everybody is looking at the short term goals of making peace with the d-bees, yes you get peace.......for a while. Then you get d-bees in the council then they start enslaving humans b/c their inferior.......and on and on.

They are fighting for the FREAKING HUMAN RACE!
Things really can't be taken lightly.

Huh? Exactly why are d-bees going to start enslaving the human race? And why is this any better than the way the CS treat dog boys who they created? If their so worried about "inhuman invaders" why creat millions of inhumans at lone star? Oh and why are humans inferior?

[Larsen]

That's how mis-haps happen, they let their guard down for one second and next thing you know ther'e 9789878 assasination attempt towards the emporer and the high command by d-bee terrorists whom "still have it out for them".

It's the way it's got to be in order to secure the existence of the human race.

First of all emporer prosek and his high command deserve to be assassinated. Secondly what you are saying would be the same as in the real world killing all middle easterners because some of them are terrorists. That may be the quickest way to solve the problem but it isn't the best or the right way.

Everybody is looking at the short term goals of making peace with the d-bees, yes you get peace.......for a while. Then you get d-bees in the council then they start enslaving humans b/c their inferior.......and on and on.

They are fighting for the FREAKING HUMAN RACE!
Things really can't be taken lightly.

No the difference isn't that I am looking at the short term goals. The difference is that I realize that rifts earth will NEVER AGAIN be populated SOLEY by human beings. You must realize this too and deal with it. Rifts earth is now the melting pot planet.

Here is a good example for you: You are born into a small village. You live there all through your childhood. You are in a peaceful village that doesn't harm anyone. You grow to become a man. Then a platoon of soldiers one day stumble upon your town and destroy it. You live long enough to find out you, who was BORN here, are being killed because these barbarians think you and your whole family are invaders to their planet. The difference is it IS YOUR planet too.

Now if you do survive this encounter will you seek revenge? Won't you teach your children to hate and maybe kill or sabotage the coalition?

[dark brandon]

Huh? Exactly why are d-bees going to start enslaving the human race? And why is this any better than the way the CS treat dog boys who they created? If their so worried about "inhuman invaders" why creat millions of inhumans at lone star? Oh and why are humans inferior?

Why? because they can. CS Treats dog boys as second class citizens. and you know what, the dog boys love us for that. I believe in lonestar it was stated that 90-97% of all dog boys Love their possition in the human "pack". They know their place and accept it.

Seriously, Do you think humans would ever accept Dbees as equals, if not the other way around? We have problems sending out kids to school where other kids potentially carry guns. How would one feel to send their child to a school where other children carry the potential naturally to obliterate a building?

Secondly what you are saying would be the same as in the real world killing all middle easterners because some of them are terrorists. That may be the quickest way to solve the problem but it isn't the best or the right way.

Breathe...repeate to yourself...it's a game...it's a game...good. See, Killing hundreds of dbees and raping their woman and putting their children into slavery cannot be equaited to the middle east. Why? Cause it's not real. it's fake. It's a story. We support a story line. Not Death to everyone in the middle east.

No the difference isn't that I am looking at the short term goals. The difference is that I realize that rifts earth will NEVER AGAIN be populated SOLEY by human beings. You must realize this too and deal with it. Rifts earth is now the melting pot planet.

CS will never know unless they try. And they are. It won't be easy, but you must keep YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!

Remember friends...the meak shall inherit the earth. And they don't get much more Meaker than Humans. Except for cactus people. But they don't count, no one plays them cause they always get eaten.

[grandmaster z0b]

Well put Larsen

[grandmaster z0b]

Huh? Exactly why are d-bees going to start enslaving the human race? And why is this any better than the way the CS treat dog boys who they created? If their so worried about "inhuman invaders" why creat millions of inhumans at lone star? Oh and why are humans inferior?

Why? because they can. CS Treats dog boys as second class citizens. and you know what, the dog boys love us for that. I believe in lonestar it was stated that 90-97% of all dog boys Love their possition in the human "pack". They know their place and accept it.
Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.
Seriously, Do you think humans would ever accept Dbees as equals, if not the other way around? We have problems sending out kids to school where other kids potentially carry guns. How would one feel to send their child to a school where other children carry the potential naturally to obliterate a building?
Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

Secondly what you are saying would be the same as in the real world killing all middle easterners because some of them are terrorists. That may be the quickest way to solve the problem but it isn't the best or the right way.

Breathe...repeate to yourself...it's a game...it's a game...good. See, Killing hundreds of dbees and raping their woman and putting their children into slavery cannot be equaited to the middle east. Why? Cause it's not real. it's fake. It's a story. We support a story line. Not Death to everyone in the middle east.
He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

No the difference isn't that I am looking at the short term goals. The difference is that I realize that rifts earth will NEVER AGAIN be populated SOLEY by human beings. You must realize this too and deal with it. Rifts earth is now the melting pot planet.

CS will never know unless they try. And they are. It won't be easy, but you must keep YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!

Remember friends...the meak shall inherit the earth. And they don't get much more Meaker than Humans. Except for cactus people. But they don't count, no one plays them cause they always get eaten.

[dark brandon]

Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.

It's only slavery if the Majority see it that way. It is a democracy after all.

Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

They could. that's why really powerful ones are given a bar code and shuned if not part of the miliatary.

He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

Because it's a game. I dunno. I mean, I played fable and killed my wife cause I didn't want to have to worry about divorce. Disturbing? I laugh when I played Metal Gear solid and broke my first eneimes neck. I laugh when I pwne my friend in the head with a sniper rifle in Halo. I would never remove my friends spine in real life, but when playing mortal kombat, it's almost required.

[grandmaster z0b]

Even if only %3 don't like it then they are still slaves, you are condoning slavery.

It's only slavery if the Majority see it that way. It is a democracy after all.
No slavery is slavery, no matter what the majority think. As soon as one of them are being held against their will it's slavery, and no it's not a democracy it's a dictatorship, what are you talking about?

[color=red]Not all d-bees have powers, but many CS citizens are psychics that do. Are you suggesting that the psychics will one day take control of the CS?

They could. that's why really powerful ones are given a bar code and shuned if not part of the miliatary.
So being part of the military makes it OK? Then why not let D-Bees into the military, and again why kill d-bees that have no powers and pose no threat.

[color=red]He's making a comparrison to put it into perspective, not suggesting that's what your advocating. If you like to take the side killing and raping within a game that's still a little disturbing. It's fine to like the CS for what they are and think they've got cool armour and robots but I don't see why you feel you must justify they're actions, when those actions are clearly evil and wrong.

Because it's a game. I dunno. I mean, I played fable and killed my wife cause I didn't want to have to worry about divorce. Disturbing? I laugh when I played Metal Gear solid and broke my first eneimes neck. I laugh when I pwne my friend in the head with a sniper rifle in Halo. I would never remove my friends spine in real life, but when playing mortal kombat, it's almost required.

OK I'll admit that I like to shoot my friends in Halo as well, but violence in war is one thing, I would not play a game of genocide of the innocent and helpless much less rape.

[Larsen]

Why? because they can. CS Treats dog boys as second class citizens. and you know what, the dog boys love us for that. I believe in lonestar it was stated that 90-97% of all dog boys Love their possition in the human "pack". They know their place and accept it.

Most dogs in the real world love their masters even if they are cruel as long as they don't consistantly physically abuse the dog, but the animal place will still come and take away your pet saying you are unfit to have it if you are repeatidly cruel to it.

Breathe...repeate to yourself...it's a game...it's a game...good. See, Killing hundreds of dbees and raping their woman and putting their children into slavery cannot be equaited to the middle east. Why? Cause it's not real. it's fake. It's a story. We support a story line. Not Death to everyone in the middle east.

I was using real life as an example of why the CS is evil and wrong. I have no problem playing a CS soldier because it it just a game. I just admit that I am either playing a self deluded character(possible good guy or selfish), a character ignorant of the truth(which can still be a good guy), or an evil character. I am just pointing out that the CS is evil just like killing your wife in fable because your bored is still an evil act. My problem is that the pro-cs people don't admit that the CS is just one of the many evils in rifts and actually defend the actions of the CS making it look like what they do is ok, which it is not.

CS will never know unless they try. And they are. It won't be easy, but you must keep YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!

Well the prize for me when I generally play good guys in rifts is to try and destroy all evil, which includes the CS.

[dark brandon]

No slavery is slavery, no matter what the majority think. As soon as one of them are being held against their will it's slavery, and no it's not a democracy it's a dictatorship, what are you talking about?

As soon as more than 30 or 40% concider it slaver, i'll go. Otherwise the 3% are just ungrateful and defective. They need to be sent back to be "reeducated".

So being part of the military makes it OK? Then why not let D-Bees into the military, and again why kill d-bees that have no powers and pose no threat.

Being part of the CS military means your for humanity, you are a brave soul. Notice the "humanity" part. A dbee is not human and can't be part of our club house.

OK I'll admit that I like to shoot my friends in Halo as well, but violence in war is one thing, I would not play a game of genocide of the innocent and helpless much less rape.

So...You'd rather be killed than Raped? Well, after watching pulp fiction...I can almost see your point.

GTA's....Grand theft auto...I kill the innocent all the time in there. and I kill officers too! I even buy women's love...and then I kill them and get my money back.

It's till a game. The only difference is how seriously you take the game.

In Game...I'd take on a dragon even if it ment I'd die. IRL, I wouldn't even think of trying to handle a garden snake, much less something that's 100x's my size.

IG, I love to play clerics/priechers. IRL, I'm probably one of the last people to advicate organized religions.

WHen a character of mine dies, I dont' go off and hang myself. I have yet someone come up to me and say "Hey, brandon, You make a pretty good psi-stalker in the game...how'd you like to be a psi-stalker IRL!" (LOL jack Chick).

[dark brandon]

I was using real life as an example of why the CS is evil and wrong. I have no problem playing a CS soldier because it it just a game. I just admit that I am either playing a self deluded character(possible good guy or selfish), a character ignorant of the truth(which can still be a good guy), or an evil character. I am just pointing out that the CS is evil just like killing your wife in fable because your bored is still an evil act. My problem is that the pro-cs people don't admit that the CS is just one of the many evils in rifts and actually defend the actions of the CS making it look like what they do is ok, which it is not.

Of course. It makes it more fun. I doubt anyone defending CS is actually as evil or intolerant as them. Generally speaking all role-players are pretty open. It's the context of the game they are defending.

Well the prize for me when I generally play good guys in rifts is to try and destroy all evil, which includes the CS.

Ah, but the CS isn't evil. The upper brass of the military is. When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

[Larsen]

When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character but after the whole trying to stay alive thing there comes the other stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Ah.. you've never played a Samurai...

[Larsen]

No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

I'll check back later for the answer. My pup is insisting I play tug o war with him. byes.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Ah.. you've never played a Samurai...

they are fun to play nothing like having honor mean more then life

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Rifts is just a game, but unless all the pro-CS advocates are just being devils advocates for the sake of an argument, the ones who honestly view the CS as being a good thing are more or less insinuating a darwinistic philosophy on the boards. Just as how, if there were lots of vocal Pro-Lazlo types, they'd be insinuating a utopian idealist philosophy on the boards.

and your point being????????

[Killer Cyborg]

No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

A samurai's first duty is to his lord; Death means nothing.
Actually, Death means great honor under many circumstances... so there's actually incentive to die.

[Jesterzzn]

No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

A samurai's first duty is to his lord; Death means nothing.
Actually, Death means great honor under many circumstances... so there's actually incentive to die.

Agreed.
A samurai would never hold self preservation higher than bushido. Most pre-industrail samurai duels resulted in the death of both combatants. Why? Because in battle your life is secondary to the kill. A samurai would sacrafice his life to kill his opponent in a heartbeat.

[Killer Cyborg]

No I really haven't. Maybe you could tell me why playing a samurai would impact that my first intention is no longer to stay alive? I'm just not understanding the comparison.

A samurai's first duty is to his lord; Death means nothing.
Actually, Death means great honor under many circumstances... so there's actually incentive to die.

Agreed.
A samurai would never hold self preservation higher than bushido. Most pre-industrail samurai duels resulted in the death of both combatants. Why? Because in battle your life is secondary to the kill. A samurai would sacrafice his life to kill his opponent in a heartbeat.

Yup.
For that matter, the Hagakuri states that there is no shame in being cut down in a futile attempt. For example, if your lord is killed or insulted by another lord, one of the proper responses is to storm the guy's compound and be cut down by his soldiers.

Edit:
It's stuff like this that is the reason why there aren't any real samurai left anymore... WWII pretty much thinned out the last of them.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

My point being, someone was wondering why the debate was being taken so seriously, even though Rifts is just a game. That's my theory as to why.

<braces self> Wow, common sense! Awesome!

Seriously, guys... if you don't like the CS... well... don't try to run me into the ground rattling off about how evil they are. It makes you sound very preachy and downright condescending. Rifts is not real life. If you can't support tyrrany, whatever; personally, I enjoy role-playing and I know if I was thrust into a strange and insecure world, I'd dive headlong into the nearest CS base.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure everyone who argues in favor of the CS knows it's 'amoral'. But hell, murder is amoral in general, and I know in RP sessions sometimes I'll gun down six or seven nameless 'evil' thugs and still seem like one of the 'good guys'. Such is Rifts.

Anyway, Coalition States: rock rock on!

[dark brandon]

My point being, someone was wondering why the debate was being taken so seriously, even though Rifts is just a game. That's my theory as to why.

Just because I support total annialation of every non-human Excluding Psychics that work for cs, does not mean anything.

I support it in the context of the game.

Just as I support in the context of Halo to shoot my friend in the head. I support in the context of GTA to "get some" then kill her. I support in the context of a game the building of a city, the building of a character...

If you blur the line and say "well, if you support CS then you must also support Rapist in real life" runs along the same lines as "Well, you play a God in one of your games so obviously your trying to usurp Gods power in Real Life".

[kamikazzijoe]

Basic governement theory: people give up personal rights for security
Once Triax and the CS reconquer the world, their citzens will begin to demand more personal rights since they require less securtiy. The evil regimes will fall and they may begin to look at other races not as invaders (since they're nolonger on earth) and stop shooting them on sight.

[grandmaster z0b]

Rifts is just a game, but unless all the pro-CS advocates are just being devils advocates for the sake of an argument, the ones who honestly view the CS as being a good thing are more or less insinuating a darwinistic philosophy on the boards. Just as how, if there were lots of vocal Pro-Lazlo types, they'd be insinuating a utopian idealist philosophy on the boards.

I sort of agree here, I think the big problem is that I'll get into a discussion with a pro-CS person and we will be making judgements about whether the CS is good or evil by extrapolating on what's in the books. Then when I'm finding it hard to understand how someone can condone genocide and slavery and start getting moralistic, it's easy to go "it's just a game".

Well if your playing devils advocate, or simply agreeing that the CS is evil but it is just a game, then that's fine, just make it clear. If you really think that the CS is good then make that clear, if you only think it's good in context of the game, make that clear.

There is certainly an issue that I'm clearly a lot more left wing than many here who support the CS, many are clarely right wing and that's their prerogative. The problem is when RL politics gets confused with Rifts politics. I think most of us are mature enough to leave that alone or for another forum.

I not accusing anyone of anything here, just some thoughts.

It does feel a little bit like two sports fans who go for opposing teams arguing about which team is better, which is clearly futile.

[Capt. Meschievitz]

It's because your from australia, a nation that was full of convicts, and your trying to repent....z0b


I support the CS in the "game" and it's "Morally" correct to kill anything that "your character" feels/looks/tastes as evil, because you can easily justify it.


Because a friend told me that RPGing was about playing something your not, since why he could not work out Millenniums End, where you only made up "Human" characters with whatever morals you had to throw towards the personality.....

But back to Rifts, then all good characters must be misguided fools, and Evil characters are too well evil, and that only leaves the selfish because if you are selfish then thats the only way to play rifts.

Thats my blah after 75 hours awake.....enjoy....

[grandmaster z0b]

Yep, I'm on my knees repenting...

Because I love to be different, I think from now on I will be a die hard Lord Dunscon and True FoM supporter.

ALL HAIL DUNSCON! He is the true saviour of humanity because he takes the most powerful weapon on this planet (magic) makes himself not just the destroyer of demons he is the Lord of Demons. He is not some stupid paranoid tech user that kills all invaders on site, he uses them to his advantage. The only right is might and he will rule this planet with an iron fist centuries from now when the Prosek dynasty is nothing but dust. We should all look to be like him.

[dark brandon]

Hum...how to phrase this...

In my opinion, if the rifts were to happen, CS would probably be the closest thing to a realistic moral change human beings would have as a whole. As such, they are the most fun to play since they have that boarder on pure fantasy and a connection to reality. They would be the "average man" and his "average man's opinion". I support CS because in the context of the game, this is how humans would react to such an event. Humans by nature, will destory that which is stronger than them and that which they do not understand. Most creatures fit this check-list perfectly. Maybe I am or am not enlightend. But one reason My favorite character class in BTS2 is the Normal Person is because there is that connection between Fantasy and reality that I can connect with.

It's when you have the problem of being unable to distinguish reality and fantasy that the real problem arises. When you have people who claim that because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL. These are the people who don't really role-play. They take themselves, give themselves power in a fantasy world, and play it as themselves. They've never played anything beyond that, and thus have a problem believeing other people could.

[Hystrix]

Hum...how to phrase this...

In my opinion, if the rifts were to happen, CS would probably be the closest thing to a realistic moral change human beings would have as a whole. As such, they are the most fun to play since they have that boarder on pure fantasy and a connection to reality. They would be the "average man" and his "average man's opinion". I support CS because in the context of the game, this is how humans would react to such an event. Humans by nature, will destory that which is stronger than them and that which they do not understand. Most creatures fit this check-list perfectly. Maybe I am or am not enlightend. But one reason My favorite character class in BTS2 is the Normal Person is because there is that connection between Fantasy and reality that I can connect with.

It's when you have the problem of being unable to distinguish reality and fantasy that the real problem arises. When you have people who claim that because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL. These are the people who don't really role-play. They take themselves, give themselves power in a fantasy world, and play it as themselves. They've never played anything beyond that, and thus have a problem believeing other people could.

Yep.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i love how everybody thinks of Free Quebec as they are better then the Coalition States, facts most of the anti d-bee policies come straight from FQ it's self and how many d-bees are in FQ vs how many in the CS, somehow if the cs treated d-bees like second class citizens people were still cry about how evil the CS is by not making them full citizens, but then again the CS are partolling some very rough areas vs some of the other places.
wow if the CS was just the enemies of one of the other nations they would be done by now, just because homie dont play that

[Hystrix]

Yeah, I never agreed with that whole, 'The NGR/Free Quebec/Republic of Japan/New Navy/My favorite kingdom is better than the CS because:'

1.) They are angelic
2.) Never do anything wrong
3.) Love and feed grapes to D-bees
4.) They are 125,789 times more powerful
5.) They are more realistic
6.) If I had a kingdom on Rifts Earth I'd run it that way
7.) They don't exist only in North America
8.) Thay embrace magic, and aren't afraid of Demon or being eaten

Yeah. Never agreed with any of that...

[cornholioprime]

they may not all be realistic in the true sense, but they've been placed in Rifts as is and you have to deal with it. And really, the CS is far from realistic either. It's a Nazi clone meant to be, specifically, a moral dilemma for the players. It's just one big plot point. Unless you start out as a CS player, you can never join and never really get on their good side. Its almost impossible to build a player group that won't have friction with them unless you do an entirely CS campaign.
The nation that makes the most sense in Rifts is, honestly, the republic of Japan...and that's only because they got dropped right out of pre-Rifts times. The CS makes no sense, Lazlo certainly doesn't make much sense (like why didn't FQ roll right over them a long time ago? They're right out their back door!). I never figured out why you'd build Tolkeen right in the path of the Xiticix advance. And New Lazlo? C'mon now.
Really, the only real Rifts born and bred empire that functions like it probably would if Rifts really happened are the Russian Warlord provinces, and I have issues about where the heck they get the resources for all those damn cyborgs.
So if we're going for actual realism in a post-apocalyptic world like Rifts....the only group that would truly behave as it does would be the Warlords of Russia.
I won't even bring up New Camelot...

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell

Agreed with everything in Boldface. Well, agreed with most of what you said, but I thought that those stuck out the most.....

[Vrykolas2k]

they may not all be realistic in the true sense, but they've been placed in Rifts as is and you have to deal with it. And really, the CS is far from realistic either. It's a Nazi clone meant to be, specifically, a moral dilemma for the players. It's just one big plot point. Unless you start out as a CS player, you can never join and never really get on their good side. Its almost impossible to build a player group that won't have friction with them unless you do an entirely CS campaign.
The nation that makes the most sense in Rifts is, honestly, the republic of Japan...and that's only because they got dropped right out of pre-Rifts times. The CS makes no sense, Lazlo certainly doesn't make much sense (like why didn't FQ roll right over them a long time ago? They're right out their back door!). I never figured out why you'd build Tolkeen right in the path of the Xiticix advance. And New Lazlo? C'mon now.
Really, the only real Rifts born and bred empire that functions like it probably would if Rifts really happened are the Russian Warlord provinces, and I have issues about where the heck they get the resources for all those damn cyborgs.
So if we're going for actual realism in a post-apocalyptic world like Rifts....the only group that would truly behave as it does would be the Warlords of Russia.
I won't even bring up New Camelot...

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell.

You make good points, and i've always agreed with these.
I have often wondered where these... nations... get their recourses, but in order to suspend disbelief a little, I don't ask myself all that often.
Just every now and then.
Like where they get all of the radioactive material to make everything nuke powered...

[LDMcFear™]

A human could neve become anywhere close to even a hatchling dragon. It may get up there in physical strength,but there are things such as bio-regeneration in such high proportions that nothing could give him that power. An adult dragon couldn't be matched by a human.

If you are going by sheer physical comparisons, then you would be correct. However It is plain to see that you have not thought about what makes Humans so wonderfull to play. Becasue by all classifcations we are the weaker species compared to the rest of the unholy rif-raf that plagues our future Earth. We are forced to think outside the box. Ways to defeat that Uber-Dragon creature without having to go Toe to Toe. It is our ability to adapt to the situation and our environment when the odds our set against us that makes us powerful. You think we designed Power armor so we could go toe to toe with a freakin dragon!? Hell no we designed it so we could live long enough to fall back, re-group, and come up with a plan to beat that sucker sensless. All our super-technology is useless without the power of human inginuity to wield it properly. This is what makes Humanity strong. The CS has set up (if nothing more) a refuge for what is left of the vast majority of North American Humainty to be safe, to come up with a plan, to keep our species alive. They might not be the tree hugging grass eating happy go-lucky crew. But they have givin us a firm foothold on the battlefield of our existence in a world bent on our desruction.

[grandmaster z0b]

Hum...how to phrase this...

In my opinion, if the rifts were to happen, CS would probably be the closest thing to a realistic moral change human beings would have as a whole. As such, they are the most fun to play since they have that boarder on pure fantasy and a connection to reality. They would be the "average man" and his "average man's opinion". I support CS because in the context of the game, this is how humans would react to such an event. Humans by nature, will destory that which is stronger than them and that which they do not understand. Most creatures fit this check-list perfectly. Maybe I am or am not enlightend. But one reason My favorite character class in BTS2 is the Normal Person is because there is that connection between Fantasy and reality that I can connect with.

I can totally understand your personal preferance, and it sounds like it would be some interesting role playing.

It's when you have the problem of being unable to distinguish reality and fantasy that the real problem arises. When you have people who claim that because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL. These are the people who don't really role-play. They take themselves, give themselves power in a fantasy world, and play it as themselves. They've never played anything beyond that, and thus have a problem believeing other people could.

Yep.

Hang on, your post was really quite reasonable to begin with, but then you go off on this weird tangent. Has anyone actually said "because you support CS you also support Genoside IRL"? I hope not because that's obviously ridicuolous, however I have seen many people including myself say that the CS are evil in game for this reason. Whoever these people are you seem to know them quite well because you also seemingly know exactly how they play. I definately think there are people out there who do play like that, but I also know some people who love to play the CS for exactly the same reason. There are plenty of people who want to play CS just because they get a SAMAS and get to kill demons. Some who cannot play any other character because they cannot imagine playing anything but a normal person in the military.

The last paragraph reads like "if you can't understand my point of view then you can't role-play". That's not the point, just as many here love the CS in game there are others who hate the CS in game. I don't think there are really any people who hate or love the CS IRL.

[grandmaster z0b]

All I have to say that if somehow someway some wierd day the Great Catclysm happned and you have a choice of being in chi-town as a citizen/soldier or an adventurer on the outsides of the way 99.9% would want to be in the walls.

I would want to be behind walls, just not those walls. What about Psyscape or Dweomer? I'd much rather be behind themm because I could do what I'm doing now - reading and writing. Learning psychic or magic powers would be cool but what I'd really need is to be literate and be allowed to be literate.

[cornholioprime]

All I have to say that if somehow someway some wierd day the Great Catclysm happned and you have a choice of being in chi-town as a citizen/soldier or an adventurer on the outsides of the way 99.9% would want to be in the walls.

So much of that depends on location, location, location....whose walls? That's an old red herring argument, since the CS wasn't the first nation to rise, wasn't always evil, and only covers a tiny geographic area. If your scenario were being realistically portrayed, you'd have to be in either psyscape or the NGR, as they were the only two powerhouses early on.

(edit) They weren't the first, they weren't the safest, they weren't the strongest, and they aren't even likely to let you in....so why do so many try to put up the "CS or nothing" scenario when they weren't even really that much of an option, esp. in comparison to what else is out there. The assumption is everyone is born in the burbs? How dangerous is it to travel to chi-town compared to anywhere else? you could just as easily be closer to Lazlo or the NGR or an Australian city depending on where you were born...and at least you have a fair to middlin' chance of actually getting into those!

Pardon me, but isn't he forgetting that Chi-Town doesn't even exist for at least a hundred years into th future?? Or are my timelines messed up???

[Capt. Meschievitz]

Yep, I'm on my knees repenting...

Because I love to be different, I think from now on I will be a die hard Lord Dunscon and True FoM supporter.

ALL HAIL DUNSCON! He is the true saviour of humanity because he takes the most powerful weapon on this planet (magic) makes himself not just the destroyer of demons he is the Lord of Demons. He is not some stupid paranoid tech user that kills all invaders on site, he uses them to his advantage. The only right is might and he will rule this planet with an iron fist centuries from now when the Prosek dynasty is nothing but dust. We should all look to be like him.

Thats the spirit....

and your also part of that 0.1% that wouldn't run into the CS if you in any human shoes by what K20A2_S said....

I wouldn't be either, I would be in free Quebec(Thats where I was born)...

[grandmaster z0b]

Yep, I'm on my knees repenting...

Because I love to be different, I think from now on I will be a die hard Lord Dunscon and True FoM supporter.

ALL HAIL DUNSCON! He is the true saviour of humanity because he takes the most powerful weapon on this planet (magic) makes himself not just the destroyer of demons he is the Lord of Demons. He is not some stupid paranoid tech user that kills all invaders on site, he uses them to his advantage. The only right is might and he will rule this planet with an iron fist centuries from now when the Prosek dynasty is nothing but dust. We should all look to be like him.

Thats the spirit....

and your also part of that 0.1% that wouldn't run into the CS if you in any human shoes by what K20A2_S said....

I wouldn't be either, I would be in free Quebec(Thats where I was born)...

Well if it really did happen I'd be in the city of Melbourne anyway...

If I was in North America why not live in the City of Brass? Sounds like a cool place.

[Hystrix]

Darklord DC wrote:

However, playing the cards that have been dealt us, meaning every nation is as valid and canon as any other as long as it's in the books. Then the CS in both freedoms, safety and standard of living, is a pale shadow next to specifically the NGR and Republic of Japan....and doesn't come in much higher in true population (meaning actual citizens) and might than the Silver River Republics, which are about as large and have equivalent tech (even having "large" Glitterboy corps). The SRR also allows techno-wizardry. Nothing like a GB with imp. to energy and chameleon TW additions....
Is that silly? You betcha, but no sillier than 3 million spare samas's, and the prosek's magical "summon impossible economic stability" spell.

Yeah, but the NGR has thier own problems. And before you didmiss the Gargoyal kindom outwright, don't forget that they are 20 million strong, and it'll be awhile before the NGR beats them (and it'll cost the NGR as well). The Republic of Japan is too isolated and too far away.

So what should these poor innocent civilians of North Amarica do? Travel by canoe to the NGR, or Republic of Japan? Or maybe Austrailia (although those two tech cities really wouldn't let anyone else in). Maybe go to live in Tolkeen... nope thats not even there anymore. And whoever said the City of Brass was a good idea (shudder)...

No, the CS protect millions of people (just like you and me) from horeds of demons and such outside the protection of the states. Perfect? No. But the CS has a potential for change (Joseph Prosek). Lazlo, the FoM and others really do not...

And hey the NGR and the RoJ are great places for humans, but unless you live in Europe, or a small island off the coast of China... dosn't do you any good...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

now hold on rthere was a point to the tolkeen war, they releashed demons onto the planet

[Sentinel]

When I play a good guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive. When I play a bad guy in rifts, my prize is to usually to stay alive.

Well that is always the first intention of any character..

Ah.. you've never played a Samurai...

they are fun to play nothing like having honor mean more then life

Samurais are cool beyond words.
What needs to happen to the CS is for The Republicans to take over.
In my campaign world, the Republicans are alive and kicking, and working on re-building the East Coast.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I store them up for when i want to get a date, but lately i havent had any good material cause ill i can get are war quotes and for some reason the ladies dont like it when i talk about death and destruction.

Unless you want to date Satanic chicks

yeah but when they want to to give yourself to the devil, i normally head for the door with the i dont mix religion with my sex

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yeah

[Suicycho]

Its says in one of the book that ANY human living is a CS state is considered a citizen of the CS, not just those living in the mega cities.

[Suicycho]

On a side note, this exact debate has been kicked around at least a dozen times since I've been coming to the site the past couple years. I can't believe El Magico or myself were actually roped into it...again. At least I held out until page 11.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

"First they came for the communists and i did not stand up, because i was not a communist.
Then they came for the jews and i did not stand up, because i was not a jew
Then they came for the disabled and i did not stand up, because i was not disabled.
Then they came for me and there was noone left to stand up."
WWII surivor said something to that effect. Every war is everyone's problem.

yes, and he said it in reference to Nazi fascism....I'm not sure if you meant to use that in support of the CS in seriousness or as a joke....I hope the latter...seriously.

actually i posted it to support one of K2's earlier posts inresponse to fenrir, I used it to say just what i said at the end of the post, "Every war is everyone's problem." it was used in all seriousness. the CS isnt great but its far from being out on your own. even in the 'Burbs you have a decent chance of living, out in the wild it takes one fury beatle to kill you and your whole little community, in the 'Burbs you at lest have soldiers wandering around every few days. plus what do you think is gonna happen if the CS does manage to close all the rifts and get rid of supernatual beings? the CS has a great economy, large populatoin, huge agricultural base, i mean most of the CS is devoted to farming and breeding(people not animals). if anything in a few generations the CS will have a civilan population in the billions, if it doesnt alread, and the production capablities to support all those people. the CS is the most likely place to survive any major threat in NA. Hell in ten generations i wouldnt be surprised to see the CS have full scale war on the Xiticix, 3 million SAMAS, even the old ones, can level a mountain range. just the amount of rounds being fired would destroy a colony.

yeah and all the bleeding hearts will cry about the xitiicix right to be free and be happy

[Mech-Viper Prime]

They don't even know Dunscon is getting stronger. Arrogance and stupidity in one package...how convenient.

But Archie does, and it says that he plans on telling the CS about it one way or another. Like I said previously, the CS may not know what is going on or where, but Archie does and he's in charge(in his mind) of taking care of humanity.

The CS won't be overrun anytime soon, plus only 10% of the CS populatin is in the military........which means what........that they really haven't dug deep yet. If it ever came down to Chi-towns survival, milllions of citizens are still at their disposal.

yeah dunscon last attack did him so good, its upset the cs and they marched into the magic zone, if i was dunscon i leave the cs alone, grandpa joe killed him butt, i'm sure karl and little jojo will finish his sorry donkey self off next time. remember FOM attacks the cs not that many will go rally behind FOM but i'm sure some will go to the cs and the rest will help or just stay out of the way

[Mech-Viper Prime]

just remember karl and jojo got some personal paid back for what dunscon did to lady prosek

[Mech-Viper Prime]

****NEWS FLASH****

Tonight on Coalition new exclusive one on one with Lady Jo-Anna Porsek, and her first public speaking on her kidnapping, lose of her son, and her escape with the aid an elite special forces team and Pro-coalition Cyber Knights, all iin this once no holds barred interview with Lady Prosek.