Can Vampires survive a Sphere of Annhilation?

[dark brandon]

Vampires are still made of matter and its powers are super regeneration which implies that it has to have something to regenerate from. The Annihilate spell is anitmatter which by its nature cancels out matter (what happents to it I don't know) . If a vampire gets a direct hit from the spell and enough damage is done in that instant all that matter that is the vampire is gone ... cancelled out by the anitmatter. Leaving nothing ... not even a single cell, vapour or any matter to regenerate from. So the vampire is history!

1) And as stated, that something is magic. The link was never severed. Therefore, it will regenerate.

2) Wouldn't matter because a vampires body is magically sustained, as such, anti-matter would have no affect on it since the Anti-matter is not magical, nor was it's creation, only it's containment. Throw an Annihilate spell at a vampire and your left with a crater, and possibly a naked vampire.

[Rayven]

Despite all the arguing going on here, I still think that the Sphere of Annihilation will kill a vamp due to the fact that it utterly obliterates whatever it hits. Magic be damned...if you hit matter with antimatter, it explodes. So unless Vamps are not matter, they die. And if they are not matter, they don't exist, and therefore are not an issue.

[dark brandon]

Despite all the arguing going on here, I still think that the Sphere of Annihilation will kill a vamp due to the fact that it utterly obliterates whatever it hits. Magic be damned...if you hit matter with antimatter, it explodes. So unless Vamps are not matter, they die. And if they are not matter, they don't exist, and therefore are not an issue.

Would Annihilate work on a rune weapon then?

[dark brandon]

Magic?? magic what? Vampires aren't magically beings. The transformation process maybe magically but there is nothing magical about them ... they aren't creatures of magic. They are supernatural beings

Supernatural. Beyond the scope that is natural. Anti-matter is natural. The laws of Nature do not pertain to supernatural. That is why they are supernatural.

PWNED!

[Rayven]

Despite all the arguing going on here, I still think that the Sphere of Annihilation will kill a vamp due to the fact that it utterly obliterates whatever it hits. Magic be damned...if you hit matter with antimatter, it explodes. So unless Vamps are not matter, they die. And if they are not matter, they don't exist, and therefore are not an issue.

Would Annihilate work on a rune weapon then?

If you can hit the Sword of Atlantis with a friggen golf ball sized unit of antimatter, I don't see why it wouldn't destroy said sword.

[dark brandon]

If you can hit the Sword of Atlantis with a friggen golf ball sized unit of antimatter, I don't see why it wouldn't destroy said sword.

Ok. I disagree with you, in that your trying to mix RL physics with Magic and the supernatural. While it does state that Rune swords are indestructable, with only 1 known way to destory them (maybe 2), at least you apply your logic across the board. Would have thought less of you if you would have said "no, because rune swords...blah".

So, we will agree to disagree.

[Rayven]

So, we will agree to disagree.

I'm cool with that.

However, I still think that, while Atlantis only mentions one way to destroy a Rune Weapon, you have to take into account that Federation was published something like 8 years after Atlantis, and thus Atlantis could not have taken that particular spell into account, and thus the spell works as a loophole of sorts.

[dark brandon]

So, we will agree to disagree.

I'm cool with that.

However, I still think that, while Atlantis only mentions one way to destroy a Rune Weapon, you have to take into account that Federation was published something like 8 years after Atlantis, and thus Atlantis could not have taken that particular spell into account, and thus the spell works as a loophole of sorts.

It could, for a very liberal GM. But the majority of GM's are gonna rule that it does not damage it at all.

As such, Someone made a very good comparison to rune weapons and vampires, a vampire is much like a rune sword, only with more options to "break" it. So, if you believe annihilate can destory a vampire then you would also say that it can destory a rune weapon, which I'm cool with, cause I think consistancy is important.

[dark brandon]

Supernatural. Beyond the scope that is natural. Anti-matter is natural. The laws of Nature do not pertain to supernatural. That is why they are supernatural.

PWNED!

The supernatural abilities of vampires are defined in the book and what makes them supernatural beings.
"The laws of Nature do not pertain to supernatural" hmm in rifts I certain that vampires are affected by gravity in rifts. Kinds of provides that statement false.

Wow, you are so right. I mean, they follow all the laws of nature, don't they? Why, just the other day, as I was transmorphing from a wolf to talk to my girlfriend who was condensed into a fine mist and was talking to me via telepathy how it's just so sad the economy has gone.

Yep, that's all well within the laws of nature.

What? What's that? Do I hear bells? Aw...someone just got SKOOLED!

[Rayven]

I don't normally do this, and here it is just for clarity and not shouting at everyone, but this really needs to be said. The Annihilate spell

IS NOT A SPHERE OF ANNIHILATION

Anyone got a BoM handy? I could have sworn there was a Spell of Legend called "Sphere of Annhilation." Was in the same book as that spell Crimson Wall of something-or-other IIRC.

[Rayven]

Anyone got a BoM handy? I could have sworn there was a Spell of Legend called "Sphere of Annhilation." Was in the same book as that spell Crimson Wall of something-or-other IIRC.

No, there is no spell called "Sphere of Annihilation." The spell that we are dealing with is called "Annihilate." It is a 14th level spell, not a Spell of Legend.

I am fully aware of the spell we are discussing, and I stand 100% behind my arguments thus far. I was asking if there is a Spell of Legend called "Sphere of Annihilation" or not. I am damned certain that I have seen that somewhere before. And before you say that I saw it in D&D, I should point out that I have, until about 2 months ago, never even opened a D&D book before, let alone played the game. And the only D&D book I have opened is the 3.5 edition Player's Handbook. And I know for fact that the Sphere of Annihilation is NOT in that book.

[jesse04]

I know it's anti-matter, but i'm not sure if that's the same stuff that's in black holes.

DAmned, I went from page 1 to page 3 and forget that details.
Well, in fact, anti-matter is far more powerful than nuclear explosion so ..

I'm not really skilled about anti-matter, but can't we imagine that anti-matter would annihilate ( no pun intented) matter ?
So, no vampire left

Or does it just release energy, and so, no damage on the vampire.

Well, I think that, unless an official answer, it's up to GM.

[/quote]

[cornholioprime]

I know it's anti-matter, but i'm not sure if that's the same stuff that's in black holes.

DAmned, I went from page 1 to page 3 and forget that details.
Well, in fact, anti-matter is far more powerful than nuclear explosion so ..

I'm not really skilled about anti-matter, but can't we imagine that anti-matter would annihilate ( no pun intented) matter ?
So, no vampire left

Or does it just release energy, and so, no damage on the vampire.

Well, I think that, unless an official answer, it's up to GM.

1]] It JUST releases Pure Energy once the Magic Containment Field shuts down as per Spell Description.

2]] Rifts Vampires are immune to ALL Energy and Radiation except, of course for Sunlight (Rifts: VK, Page 24). Therefore, they are immune to the Energies released by "Annihilate," since its Spell Description SPECIFICALLY describs the Matter/AntiMatter explosion as being NON-Magical.

3]] Since the "Vampire Kingdoms" Book ALSO states that the Vampire can reform its ENTIRE Body in 8 hours (Rifts: VK, page 24), this means that even IF you somehow managed to deal out that much damage to a (Rifts) Vampire, if you don't kill it via the methods described in Vampire Kingdoms, it WILL regenerate to full health given enough time........

[cornholioprime]

I take issue with the fact that someone likes to throw around the word Supernatural as meaning not explainable by laws of Nature, science or some other Order of things. That is plainly false and Ill tell you why and please follow this argument and if you would like to rebuke it then do so honestly.

In my Games I try and use Logic, Reason and Imagination to form as much of a perfect world as can be. Yes there are certain things that are left to the 4 winds for explanation but here is where The Word Supernatural comes into this. I love and study paranormal and Supernatural phenomenon in my Real Day to day existence. Supernatural as it exists in our day to day lives pertains to things that we at our current state in life cant explain. Doesn't mean that its all mumbo jumbo it just means we haven't evolved or advanced far enough to understand what is truly going on. I have yet to see anything that is truly supernatural and unexplainable. SOOOOOO Vampires for example seem fairly Natural and explainable by most laws form a dimension or world where the creatures come from. Just because they came to Rifts earth made them unusual or strange and people try to impose outrageous rules and Beliefs on em hence making Vampires immune to about anything but stupid Water from a squirt gun. To Me a Ball of Anti Matter destroys anything. Look up what anti matter is and logically try and tell me how it makes more sense that a squirt gun can kill a vamp but Anti Matter cant. YES I realize this is a Game and reality has little to do with it for most of you but to me Anti matter still Trumps A WHOLE Lot of things Vamps Included.

Thank you for reading this, enjoy Quoting it to no end

In YOUR Game, Hellwalker, you allow Vampires to be destroyed, apparently because you don't like the way they were built in Rifts. But House Rule does not a Canon Law make.

Furthermore, if you REALLY want to play BY THE LETTER OF THE "LAW," then you STILL can't damage the Vampire with the "Annihilate" Spell.

Why???

Vampires are IMMUNE to ALL energy and Radiation, apart from Sunlight, of course (Vampire Kingdoms Pages 7, 24, and 26).

So you're gonna kill a Rifts Vampire HOW, exactly?? Not from the Energy produced by the AntiMatter/Matter intermix. Not from the Secondary or Tertiary Radiation. Not from the heat produced (if any; Vampires are also COMPLETELY immune to Temperature Extremes unless first staked in the heart).

IN REAL LIFE, "Supernatural" pertains to both that outside the realms of Physics AND that which we cannot currently explain in Science.

In Rifts, however, the term "Supernatural" refers SPECIFICALLY to that which is outside the realms of Natural Laws. For example, even though the Cosmic Forge's Powers are COMPLETELY beyond Understanding of the Laws of Physics, no Author has EVER called the Cosmic Forge "Supernatural;" it is merely a product of Super-Science. Trying to apply your own notions of "Supernatural" to the Game usually leads to nothing but trouble.......


Oh. One more thing. WHERE IN BLAZES did you get the Idea that Vampires' Vulnerabilities and/or Invulberabilities come from the beliefs of the People around them??? Do me a favor and NOT put out your own Conjectures on the Issue; give me a SPECIFIC Book and Page Number, or even a LIST of Books if necessary, that say that this is so.......

On second thought, just save yourself the effort, UNLESS you want to say that ALL people in ALL Dimensions "gave" Palladium Vampires their particular Vulnerabilities, the EXACT SAME Vulnerabilities, EVERYWHERE (contrary to popular belief, Rifts Vampires/Vampire Intelligences are EVERYWHERE in the Megaverse, including Palladium, where they came from).

[Sentinel]

I agree that :
A) The spell should be changed.
B) KevSim should re-evaluate whether or not vampires are beyond the harm of this particular spell. This spell did not exist when Vampire Kingdoms was introduced: now that the spell does exist, let's get an official verdict on how the designer intends vamps and anti-matter to interact.
C) This spell should likely be a Spell of Legend
D) This Spell shouldn't be too terribly common no matter what.
E) While I do like the vampire vulnerability to running water (this is an actual piece of vampire folklore: some others like certain witches, and evil spirits and creatures also have a thing about running water), I do also think the Super Soaker as a vamp-killing tool is a little ridiculous.

[Dr. Doom III]

If you can hit the Sword of Atlantis with a friggen golf ball sized unit of antimatter, I don't see why it wouldn't destroy said sword.

Except for the fact that the sword is indestructible.

[Sentinel]

Gheralt HellWalker wrote:

Oh, Sphere of Annihilation was added later? Very interesting where it fits in the scope of the megaverse. And yes, It should be rare or atleast not something that is hurled around like a Lightning bolt or other more typical and commonly thought of magic in a practicioners repetoire..

Yeah, Annihilate was one of the FoM spells to combat the CS.

I find it hard to believe that between World Book One and World Book Seventeen that more magical means of dealing with vampires weren't devised.

have no desire to purchase the New West and Spirit West books. Not a big fan of Cowboys and indians and such. Oops sorry off the topic my bad

I like New West and Spirit West. Most of my Rifts games have started out at some point in New West, Spirit West, Lone Star, and/or Vampire Kingdoms. While I felt the need to cull some of the OCCsin all three books.
Many of the OCCs are good for NPCs, but most players weren't interested in Saloon Girls and Saloon Bums as PCs.

[Kelorin]

I suppose the real answer to this debate will like, many other debates on this board end in 'it will do what the GM wants it to do'. The Dragon Juicer/PPE debate seems to be going in the same direction.

But I was just thinking of something else when it comes to Vampires. The original Vampire legends come mainly from European myths and legends from a particular period of history in which the Church still had a great deal of power.

Let's look at the 'prescribed' methods of dealing with traditional Vampires. Holy Symbols, specifically images of the Cross, fire, holy water, sunlight, wood stakes, etc. Many of these items like holy symbols, blessed water etc, would also have been the prescribed items to deal with demons, witches, werewolves and other supernatural, hell-spawned Servants of Satan. Fire was always a popular method of exposing witches, and demons, so why not vampires. Vampires and Werewolves are nocturnal hunters, never seen during the light of day, so obviously they must be vulnerable to sunlight. For Wood, and Silver, the earthy elements, and may be holdovers from Pagan beliefs.

But the point is that the 'correct' method of killing Vampires, or Werewolves, or Demons have all been based on whatever was readily available at the time when the legends were created. Fire, Silver, Water, Sunlight, Faith have been available always. If Depleted Uranium, Napalm, Tac Nukes, Assault Burst Pulse Lasers, or whatever were around when Vampire, and Werwolf legends came into prominence, these items would have been incorporated in the list of 'correct' items to kill them.

What if you went back in time, and handed a 'Vampire Hunter' a 5000 RPM, belt fed, depleted uranium, Vulcan Minigun and told him this would kill Vampires. How would that affect the Vampire legends?

Also take current Zombie movies. They usually kill Zombies with bullets, to the head, not stakes to the heart. Why? Guns are readily available, and seem to get the job done.

Technically, cavemen really would have no way of knowing if caseless hollowpoint ammo would kill another person, since it was available to them. Similarly, how could people in Middle Ages know if Nukes would kill their personal 'demons', without having access to them or even knowledge of them.

So a lot of these debates that degenerate into: Creature or OCC X cannot be affected by Oject or Spell Y because it wasn't explicitly stated in the original description in a book written 6 years earlier is somewhat ridiculous. At the same time, it would be nice, if some of these conflicts were addressed by Palladium, and definitive answers given.

[Judas]

I suppose the real answer to this debate will like, many other debates on this board end in 'it will do what the GM wants it to do'. The Dragon Juicer/PPE debate seems to be going in the same direction.

But I was just thinking of something else when it comes to Vampires. The original Vampire legends come mainly from European myths and legends from a particular period of history in which the Church still had a great deal of power.

Let's look at the 'prescribed' methods of dealing with traditional Vampires. Holy Symbols, specifically images of the Cross, fire, holy water, sunlight, wood stakes, etc. Many of these items like holy symbols, blessed water etc, would also have been the prescribed items to deal with demons, witches, werewolves and other supernatural, hell-spawned Servants of Satan. Fire was always a popular method of exposing witches, and demons, so why not vampires. Vampires and Werewolves are nocturnal hunters, never seen during the light of day, so obviously they must be vulnerable to sunlight. For Wood, and Silver, the earthy elements, and may be holdovers from Pagan beliefs.

But the point is that the 'correct' method of killing Vampires, or Werewolves, or Demons have all been based on whatever was readily available at the time when the legends were created. Fire, Silver, Water, Sunlight, Faith have been available always. If Depleted Uranium, Napalm, Tac Nukes, Assault Burst Pulse Lasers, or whatever were around when Vampire, and Werwolf legends came into prominence, these items would have been incorporated in the list of 'correct' items to kill them.

What if you went back in time, and handed a 'Vampire Hunter' a 5000 RPM, belt fed, depleted uranium, Vulcan Minigun and told him this would kill Vampires. How would that affect the Vampire legends?

Also take current Zombie movies. They usually kill Zombies with bullets, to the head, not stakes to the heart. Why? Guns are readily available, and seem to get the job done.

Technically, cavemen really would have no way of knowing if caseless hollowpoint ammo would kill another person, since it was available to them. Similarly, how could people in Middle Ages know if Nukes would kill their personal 'demons', without having access to them or even knowledge of them.

So a lot of these debates that degenerate into: Creature or OCC X cannot be affected by Oject or Spell Y because it wasn't explicitly stated in the original description in a book written 6 years earlier is somewhat ridiculous. At the same time, it would be nice, if some of these conflicts were addressed by Palladium, and definitive answers given.

Correct, but we are not talking about "our" myths, it is about in the game whether a spell can effect a vampire. I mean no offence because what are saying is very true, but we are speaking in a rpg context, and in such myth and laws can be broken.

Right to put it straight even if a vampire that has been staked and then set on fire there is only a 50/50 chance the vampire is destoyed, why not give it the same chance against an Annihilate if you believe it is a "magical attack", but remeber that Vampires take 1/2 damage from magic, so they have a better chance of surviving it anyway with their only being incapacitated till past -21 HP rule.

[dark brandon]

I take issue with the fact that someone likes to throw around the word Supernatural as meaning not explainable by laws of Nature, science or some other Order of things. That is plainly false and Ill tell you why and please follow this argument and if you would like to rebuke it then do so honestly.

In my Games I try and use Logic, Reason and Imagination to form as much of a perfect world as can be. Yes there are certain things that are left to the 4 winds for explanation but here is where The Word Supernatural comes into this. I love and study paranormal and Supernatural phenomenon in my Real Day to day existence. Supernatural as it exists in our day to day lives pertains to things that we at our current state in life cant explain. Doesn't mean that its all mumbo jumbo it just means we haven't evolved or advanced far enough to understand what is truly going on. I have yet to see anything that is truly supernatural and unexplainable. SOOOOOO Vampires for example seem fairly Natural and explainable by most laws form a dimension or world where the creatures come from. Just because they came to Rifts earth made them unusual or strange and people try to impose outrageous rules and Beliefs on em hence making Vampires immune to about anything but stupid Water from a squirt gun. To Me a Ball of Anti Matter destroys anything. Look up what anti matter is and logically try and tell me how it makes more sense that a squirt gun can kill a vamp but Anti Matter cant. YES I realize this is a Game and reality has little to do with it for most of you but to me Anti matter still Trumps A WHOLE Lot of things Vamps Included.

They are supernatural. Just because one understands/does not understand something does not make something supernatural in Palladium. There are many instances where the writer says "This may seem supernatural but..." and goes off to explain how it's not concidered supernatural. In otherwords, something in Palladium is Supernatural by default, not by understanding.

For example, if say Vampires could be explained logically, then would the spell "Dessicate the Supernatural" cease to work on them?

Mage: "Alright, i'm casting this spell on the vampire, he's so toast...what? It didn't work...Blasted science, Foiled again!!!!"

In Palladium things are classified in 3 sections. Physical, Magical and Supernatural. It is not the understanding that creates these three branches but something more.

That is how a vampire is able to exist without a heartbeat and needing only blood, and going from one state of matter to another in a matter of seconds, and why very limited physical things can kill a vampire, it is the same reason why Sunlight destorys a vampire, but not UV light, or whatever other light source there is, it is the reason a vampire could go into a green house that has artificial sunlight and not be turned into powerder within a few minutes, but if he stands outside for a smoke in the morning he's kitty litter.

[Judas]

I take issue with the fact that someone likes to throw around the word Supernatural as meaning not explainable by laws of Nature, science or some other Order of things. That is plainly false and Ill tell you why and please follow this argument and if you would like to rebuke it then do so honestly.

In my Games I try and use Logic, Reason and Imagination to form as much of a perfect world as can be. Yes there are certain things that are left to the 4 winds for explanation but here is where The Word Supernatural comes into this. I love and study paranormal and Supernatural phenomenon in my Real Day to day existence. Supernatural as it exists in our day to day lives pertains to things that we at our current state in life cant explain. Doesn't mean that its all mumbo jumbo it just means we haven't evolved or advanced far enough to understand what is truly going on. I have yet to see anything that is truly supernatural and unexplainable. SOOOOOO Vampires for example seem fairly Natural and explainable by most laws form a dimension or world where the creatures come from. Just because they came to Rifts earth made them unusual or strange and people try to impose outrageous rules and Beliefs on em hence making Vampires immune to about anything but stupid Water from a squirt gun. To Me a Ball of Anti Matter destroys anything. Look up what anti matter is and logically try and tell me how it makes more sense that a squirt gun can kill a vamp but Anti Matter cant. YES I realize this is a Game and reality has little to do with it for most of you but to me Anti matter still Trumps A WHOLE Lot of things Vamps Included.

They are supernatural. Just because one understands/does not understand something does not make something supernatural in Palladium. There are many instances where the writer says "This may seem supernatural but..." and goes off to explain how it's not concidered supernatural. In otherwords, something in Palladium is Supernatural by default, not by understanding.

For example, if say Vampires could be explained logically, then would the spell "Dessicate the Supernatural" cease to work on them?

Mage: "Alright, i'm casting this spell on the vampire, he's so toast...what? It didn't work...Blasted science, Foiled again!!!!"

In Palladium things are classified in 3 sections. Physical, Magical and Supernatural. It is not the understanding that creates these three branches but something more.

That is how a vampire is able to exist without a heartbeat and needing only blood, and going from one state of matter to another in a matter of seconds, and why very limited physical things can kill a vampire, it is the same reason why Sunlight destorys a vampire, but not UV light, or whatever other light source there is, it is the reason a vampire could go into a green house that has artificial sunlight and not be turned into powerder within a few minutes, but if he stands outside for a smoke in the morning he's kitty litter.

That is bang on right, the same reason why a poltergeist cannot be hurt be a an annihilate, though magic hurts it, the spell is a physical attack, magic calling upon natural resources to power it. Anti-matter and matter are NOT magical, and in the end cannot overcome the supernatural.

To put it another way, if a vampire can survive an annihilate then so can a werewolf, going by the same principle.

[cornholioprime]

Rules are a guideline. Cannon is something you dont have to follow. Im not a rules lawyer so Cannon means nada to me. This is what is called a Debate. A Debate means Cannon or what is listed isnt complete so people give there ideas to fix what is broken which Cannon material is 80% of the time.

***sigh*** Debates on these Forums are ALWAYS about Canon. When you think about it, Debates on this Forum can ONLY be about Canon, unless the thread Poster says at the outset, "What do you do in YOUR Game??" Or something to that effect.

With that being said In Rifts vampires are immune To energy and such but most listed examples are the more traditional energy forms.

Please, PLEASE, go review your basic Physics and/or Quantum Mechanics; there ARE Books that can be easily understood by Laymen such you or I. To wit: There's NO SUCH THING as "different" Energy, only the amounts produced by the Reaction in Question. There's no "Fat Free" Energy. No "Energy Lite." No "Annihilate" Energy as opposed to "Laser Beam" Energy or "Nuclear Device Detonation" Energy. And UNLESS and UNTIL Kev says "Hey, Kids!! Vampires are vulnerable to the Energy produced by X," then they're simply NOT vulnerable to the Energy produced by X.

I would like you to show me a single Anti Matter Weapon in Rifts. would like you to show me a single Anti Matter Weapon in Rifts.

Go check the Three Galaxies; there is at least one Cruise Missile (page 130), and at least one Ship whose Engines are Anti-Matter/Matter Intermix powered. There's also the Wrath of God Destroyer, available for purchase on Earth, whose Engines are powered in the same manner. The Authors SPECIFICALLY say that the use of these Weps are deliberately limited. So why would one use an Antimatter Wep when he can get the same "yield," without the same risk, from using other Devices?? Please note that the Tech Level for these is currently beyond the capabilities of Earth's denizens apart from maybe A.R.C.H.I.E. 3 and/or the Kittani.

Sphere of Annihilation is supposed to be a INCREDIBLY impressive and destructive spell.

No, it's nothing more than a High-PPE Cost version of Magnetic Bottle. The Antimatter in the Sphere is EXACTLY the same as Antimatter that you make -or get -in any other way.

Vampires are not invlunerable. They are only such to normal and conventionaly produced means which also would include in my mind Magic that would bring about a death that can be replicated in Nature of sorts.

NO ONE, not even Kev Himself, ever said that Vampires are TOTALLY invulnerable, which is what the previous Statement Implies; even the Author himself is quoted as saying that Vampires have LIMITED Invulnerability; vulnerable to SOME things but not others.

Oh, and please explain yourself; we don't understand what you mean when you say something like (paraphrasing) "Vampires are ONLY invulnerable against normal and conventially produced means..."

Oh, really???

So tell us, WHAT exactly constitutes "Normal and Conventionally produced means???" Do you have a Book and Page Number for the Table that says which Weps are "conventional" or something like it?? The "Annihilate" Spell IS High Level, but it remains a Spell nonetheless; sounds pretty 'conventional' to me. And we've already demonstrated that Energy is JUST Energy. so what, pray tell is so 'unconventional' about "Annihilate" apart from its high PPE Cost???

Your right I cant quote page numbers but I can give a logical arguement that is hard to refute.

And THERE'S your Problem right there. You're ATTEMPTING to apply Logic to an In-Game Rule. BY FAR, that'll get you in 'trouble' far more often than it does not. Logically, Vampires SHOULD by just as vulnerable to a Full-Spectrum, high intensity Light Source as they are to Sunlight, since, LOGICALLY speaking, they are exactly the same thing. But it doesn't work in Canon. But again, we're not talking about YOUR views on what should and should not be. We're talking In-Game Mechanics here.

If you can argue that Anti Matter is a Normal weapon and in teh vampires description a example of Anti matter or a Anti Matter like weapon cannot destroy them then I will back down and say you are right or atleast in terms of your cannon arguement. Otherwise it is a discussion that can go on for ages.. Till a Vampire would die of old age

See above. OR, in the alternative, you could tell us exactly what makes Annihilate" so unconventional in the first place. Antimatter was "discovered" IRL by Paul Dirac in the late 20s, and first created in a Lab in the 50s (or something like that). Currently expensive to make?? Yup. But ONLY because we haven't got a real use for it -yet -that can't be done FAR more cheaply, and safely, by OTHER Nuclear Reactions and we therefore don't have a sizable Industry based around making these Particles apart from two or three Devices, worldwide.

HARD to make?? Yup.

But unconventional??? Nah. There are Quantum Physicists, Stephen Hawking among them, that believe that there are whole areas of Known Space that are MOSTLY Antimatter........

[cornholioprime]

I take issue with the fact that someone likes to throw around the word Supernatural as meaning not explainable by laws of Nature, science or some other Order of things. That is plainly false and Ill tell you why and please follow this argument and if you would like to rebuke it then do so honestly.

In my Games I try and use Logic, Reason and Imagination to form as much of a perfect world as can be. Yes there are certain things that are left to the 4 winds for explanation but here is where The Word Supernatural comes into this. I love and study paranormal and Supernatural phenomenon in my Real Day to day existence. Supernatural as it exists in our day to day lives pertains to things that we at our current state in life cant explain. Doesn't mean that its all mumbo jumbo it just means we haven't evolved or advanced far enough to understand what is truly going on. I have yet to see anything that is truly supernatural and unexplainable. SOOOOOO Vampires for example seem fairly Natural and explainable by most laws form a dimension or world where the creatures come from. Just because they came to Rifts earth made them unusual or strange and people try to impose outrageous rules and Beliefs on em hence making Vampires immune to about anything but stupid Water from a squirt gun. To Me a Ball of Anti Matter destroys anything. Look up what anti matter is and logically try and tell me how it makes more sense that a squirt gun can kill a vamp but Anti Matter cant. YES I realize this is a Game and reality has little to do with it for most of you but to me Anti matter still Trumps A WHOLE Lot of things Vamps Included.

They are supernatural. Just because one understands/does not understand something does not make something supernatural in Palladium. There are many instances where the writer says "This may seem supernatural but..." and goes off to explain how it's not concidered supernatural. In otherwords, something in Palladium is Supernatural by default, not by understanding.

For example, if say Vampires could be explained logically, then would the spell "Dessicate the Supernatural" cease to work on them?

Mage: "Alright, i'm casting this spell on the vampire, he's so toast...what? It didn't work...Blasted science, Foiled again!!!!"

In Palladium things are classified in 3 sections. Physical, Magical and Supernatural. It is not the understanding that creates these three branches but something more.

That is how a vampire is able to exist without a heartbeat and needing only blood, and going from one state of matter to another in a matter of seconds, and why very limited physical things can kill a vampire, it is the same reason why Sunlight destorys a vampire, but not UV light, or whatever other light source there is, it is the reason a vampire could go into a green house that has artificial sunlight and not be turned into powerder within a few minutes, but if he stands outside for a smoke in the morning he's kitty litter.

Hear!! Hear!!!!

[Danger]

Rules are a guideline. Cannon is something you dont have to follow. Im not a rules lawyer so Cannon means nada to me. This is what is called a Debate. A Debate means Cannon or what is listed isnt complete so people give there ideas to fix what is broken which Cannon material is 80% of the time.

***sigh*** Debates on these Forums are ALWAYS about Canon. When you think about it, Debates on this Forum can ONLY be about Canon, unless the thread Poster says at the outset, "What do you do in YOUR Game??" Or something to that effect.

Thanks, CHP. I was going to say the same thing. Rules are rules, just like laws are laws. It is the way things are intended to work. Sure, you can change the rules (or break them) just like laws. But that's what's called 'House Rules'. Also, Debates are a battle of one opinion against another. We aren't discussing what one person's opinion or house rules are vs another's, we're discussing how things are intended to work.

Which led me to revamp the Vamps a bit.

More houserules, which don't pertain to anything aside from your own game.

I'll go ahead & end this with quoting the Vampire Kingdom's book:

Page 26 - 'Magic can also hurt, incapacitate, & contain a vampire.'

Note, it does not say kill. Annihilate is a magical spell, so it falls under that rule.

Also Page 33 says, 'But while magic can hurt & incapacitate a vampire, it cannot kill him.'

And same page, 'Note: Although magic can be tremendously useful in combating the undead, the vampires must still be destroyed in the time-honored fashion of being staked & burnt, or exposed to sunlight, or submerged in water, to be permentantly destroyed.'

So, as I suggested, even if the Annihilate spell does blow them to vapor, they'll regenerate and come back.

The End.

[Danger]

When that desription was written, there was no spell of the sheer destructive power of Annihilate.
I say the description needs an update to cover all the magic spells that exist now, that didn't exist then (like Dessicate the Supernatural).

That's like saying that there are now lasers & other weapons that do 3x the damage that they did in the main book. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't be killed by magic just because there's better magic. Dessicate the Supernatural is a specific spell that gives specific effects. Otherwise, default to 'they can be incapacitated but not killed.'

[cornholioprime]

I see this has gone on seven pages, and I've got a bunch of school work to do pretty quick, so I'll pipe in with my own.

Yes, the vampire would be destroyed.

There's plenty of precident to suggest that a vampire would take it directly in the chest and flip you the bird, but I'm inclinded to look at the game as a whole.

Annihilate is a, what? 13th? 14th level spell? It costs 600 PPE, save for a few exceptions.

I'd say that if you really, REALLY wanted to kill that vampire that badly, than he's toast.

A counter argument could be made that a high powered (level 10+) Master Vampire shouldn't fall before that. My figuring is that if the Master Vampire is that old and powerful, it means a few things.

1) He's just insanely lucky. Bye bye fang-boy.
2) He's exceptionally intelligent. If the player can corner him without some dastardly plan to get away, see above.
3) He's exceptionally powerful. Likely a reasonably potent wizard (and held on to his favourite spells after he died), and weilding powerful artifacts and mystical mojo. A spell or magical/TW item that casts Invincible Armour (soaks up all extra damage above it's own as it disappates) or even a greater/greatest rune artifact in the form of a Heroes Unlimited "Immune to Magic" Magic category item.

It largely depends. Luring a vampire into a ley line nexus to ambush him means you'd better trick him. Doing it effectively under your own power means he'd better be on par (and is likely a sorcerer himself).

It works itself out, I think.

****CornholioPrime sighs, hangs his head in frustration, and asks The Formless One to give Book and Page examples in Rifts Canon that fit his explanation that if (paraphrasing) you have a Spell of X Level, that cost Y in P.P.E., then Creature Z, normally Immune to said Effect, now somehow becomes vulnerable. CornholioPrime can't personally remember Kevin EVER saying anything to that effect.

Of course, CornholioPrime ALSO thinks that this Respondent has Rifts Vampires confused with Anne Rice Vampires or some such....****

[cornholioprime]

Corn, I wrote out a detailed reply, but opted out of it as I was posting.

I'll sum it up quickly: There's nothing (as I said above the part you bolded) to suggest that my way is the official way of doing things.

It's just a matter of theme and where the focus lies for you. Mine would be on my players getting their Annihilate on and winning. That's it.

If you want to run a slightly different game with a more frantic, desperate feel to it, than the vampire is just stunned.

It's a matter of theme. Mine's just based around individual power and making things cool from the perspective of my player.

So, no. I didn't mistake Palladium vampires for an Anne Rice novel. They're nothing alike. You'll have to excuse my interest on Experience Level actually meaning anything.

You're welcome to have 10th level NPC's who... ahem, suck.

Then you have my apologies. I mistakenly lumped ypu in with others who were not only stating their own Theories on what Vampires should be like, but ALSO attempting to label it "Canon." Upon reading your Respose once again, I see that I was in error.

Again, my apologies

[dark brandon]

Corn, I wrote out a detailed reply, but opted out of it as I was posting.

I'll sum it up quickly: There's nothing (as I said above the part you bolded) to suggest that my way is the official way of doing things.

It's just a matter of theme and where the focus lies for you. Mine would be on my players getting their Annihilate on and winning. That's it.

If you want to run a slightly different game with a more frantic, desperate feel to it, than the vampire is just stunned.

It's a matter of theme. Mine's just based around individual power and making things cool from the perspective of my player.

So, no. I didn't mistake Palladium vampires for an Anne Rice novel. They're nothing alike. You'll have to excuse my interest on Experience Level actually meaning anything.

You're welcome to have 10th level NPC's who... ahem, suck.

So, how do you handle low level spells vs. High level characters. Would said master vampire be invulnerable to carpet of adhesion IN HUMAN FORM (I put that in bold so everyone knows i'm not talking about when they are turned into mist or anything, just specifically, human form)

So, would low level spells in your game, with low level PPE become generally uselsess against higher level enemies?

[Sentinel]

When that desription was written, there was no spell of the sheer destructive power of Annihilate.
I say the description needs an update to cover all the magic spells that exist now, that didn't exist then (like Dessicate the Supernatural).

That's like saying that there are now lasers & other weapons that do 3x the damage that they did in the main book. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't be killed by magic just because there's better magic. Dessicate the Supernatural is a specific spell that gives specific effects. Otherwise, default to 'they can be incapacitated but not killed.'

I am willing to accept that convention (non-magical) weapons do not affect the blood suckers.
Magic is different. Magic can be used to fight just about anything in the megaverse(with a few exceptions, but then those exceptions tend to be weakened by some other force).
I suppose now, I'm not asking whether the Vampire is killed/destroyed by Annihilate (obviously the canon answer is "No").
Now, I'm asking, Is theis what Vampires are supposed to be, in terms of a threat? If I want to pull a creature that can survive Annihilate, to use against my high-level players, there are plenty of creatures to use.
Is this what vamps are supposed to be? For me, the answer is no.
I prefer Bram Stoker over Anne Rice.
Get your minds out of the gutter

[cornholioprime]

When that desription was written, there was no spell of the sheer destructive power of Annihilate.
I say the description needs an update to cover all the magic spells that exist now, that didn't exist then (like Dessicate the Supernatural).

That's like saying that there are now lasers & other weapons that do 3x the damage that they did in the main book. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't be killed by magic just because there's better magic. Dessicate the Supernatural is a specific spell that gives specific effects. Otherwise, default to 'they can be incapacitated but not killed.'

I am willing to accept that convention (non-magical) weapons do not affect the blood suckers.
Magic is different. Magic can be used to fight just about anything in the megaverse(with a few exceptions, but then those exceptions tend to be weakened by some other force).
I suppose now, I'm not asking whether the Vampire is killed/destroyed by Annihilate (obviously the canon answer is "No").
Now, I'm asking, Is theis what Vampires are supposed to be, in terms of a threat? If I want to pull a creature that can survive Annihilate, to use against my high-level players, there are plenty of creatures to use.
Is this what vamps are supposed to be? For me, the answer is no.
I prefer Bram Stoker over Anne Rice.
Get your minds out of the gutter

No offense, Sentinel, but you're for some reason hung up on the Idea that Vamps are somehow UBER-Powerful just because one of their Invulnerabilities just happens to be to the Spell "Annihilate," and personally, I don't know why.

Would you consider a lowly Zavor to be "godlike" just because he can shrug off even the most powerful Rune Weapons??? Or the Were [fill in the blanks with your preference of WereBeast here], or Undead Murder-Wraiths???

No. Even though they (TRUE Supernatural Weres, not their Mutant counterparts) are almost as invulnerable as the Vampire is to physical harm.

Again, the Rules of Magic for Vampires allows their Supernatural Bodies to MAGICALLY "ignore" most Physical Conditions around them. Note that I did NOT say "supplant," as in be superior to; I said "ignore," as in "this isn't one of the proper Physical conditions needed to harm me; therefore, my Body will not 'respond' to this Physical Force by taking Damage."

If it helps any, think about this Real World analogy:

Virutally ALL Metals eventually become dissolved/corroded in Seawater, with at least ONE notable exception: Gold. Gold's molecular structure is so dense and stable, that even Saltwater is unable to corrode it.

But NO ONE would say for even an instant that the Gold Doubloon or Gold Ingot is "superior" to Sea Water; they'd all say, in roundabout fashion, that the proper Physical Condidtions required to break down Gold have not been met.

Which brings us back to (Rifts) Vampires. Their Bodies will ignore EVERY Physical Effect out there, UNLESS said Physical Forces take the shape of Moving Water, a LACK of soil from the Homeland, (Select) Holy Symbols, Wood, Silver, Garlic, or of course, Sunlight......

[Sentinel]

And, as I may have stated previously, I think the squirt gun is a stupid idea for killing vamps. As is a sprinkler system.
Unless you're using Holy Water. I don't mind 'running water' as defined as a river, or some naturally occuring phenomenon, but the idea that my Juicer can kill a vampire by giving him a swirly in a toilet seems rather laughable.

Corn, if it helps clear up my seemingly muddied thought process, I try o establish a heirchy of power level in my campaign, as a means of determining reasonable threat levels.
In brief it would go like this(using only Palladium archtypes, and none of the archtypes I have designed for my own use):
Alien Intelligences, including Vampire Intelligences.
Gods and Ancient Dragons, Elementals.
Dragons(adult).
True Giants, Godlings, Dominators, Cosmo-Knights, etc.
Demigods, Mega-Heroes(including the Blayze alien), Hatchling Dragons.
Vampires, Were-beasts, other superhumans (subjective).
Everybody else in subjective order.
I do agree that vampires ought to be a potent credible threat.
I feel that when Thor walks into the room, Vamps should leave in fear.
And, I have allowed Thor as a Player character in my game, because I completely trusted the player not to be abusive, and I did have threats even for the god of thunder.

[dark brandon]

And, as I may have stated previously, I think the squirt gun is a stupid idea for killing vamps. As is a sprinkler system.
Unless you're using Holy Water. I don't mind 'running water' as defined as a river, or some naturally occuring phenomenon, but the idea that my Juicer can kill a vampire by giving him a swirly in a toilet seems rather laughable.

I"m curious as to why everyone thinks this makes vampires so much more vulnerable?

Running water won't do squat to a Vampire who's wearing a rain coat, let alone any kind of armor.

For example, A I grouped with guys who got ready to go vampire hunting, and loaded up with silver, stakes and garlic.

But none of that made a lick of difference. They forgot to stock up on MDC weapons cause they were so use to fighting vampires who were up in their face, and ravage and rip them. Does well vs. Wild vampires. Secondary and master are completely different story.

They are preditors, but they are still intellegent. I believe they are generally smarter than a normal human to begin with 3d6+2 for IQ to start.

Not only that taking into concideration things like Super-hypno, you can take someone out of combat in a matter of moments. "Go sit in the car and think about how much you suck" "Drop the water gun", "Your family is in dire trouble, RUN to them RUN TO THEM QUICKLY" can widdle down a party's number in just moments. Squirting him with running water doesn't hurt cause he's wearing EBA (They prefer NOT to wear it, but if they realize they are facing professional vampire hunters, they will make an exception at least until the party is disarmed, once disarmed, remove helmet, turn to mist, return to human form, proceed to PWN) Now you have to destory his armor, then pull out your water guns. AND they have access to the very same weapons and guns any PC can have (General market at least).

Run Right, even a couple of secondary vampires could give any real vampire hunting group a run for their money.

I believe vampires can range in danger from almost laughable (hehe, my super-soaker ate 12 vampires today) to the outright Insainly dangerous (hehe, My vampire ate up 12 hunters today).

Vampires are one reason I think psi-stalkers rock.

[dark brandon]

A lot of you guys still seem to want to trot out Annihilate like it is some Uber instant-destruction-even-gods-should-ph33r-itz-l33t-power kind of spell, when, quite frankly, it's not. Maximum of 800 MD in one attack.

I felt like bringing this up, mainly because it made me frightened. "Only" 800 MDC in a single attack?

Keep in mind that this spell isn't god-level, but mortal level. An equal attack would be that 1,000,000 point god blast out of Dragons & Gods.

However, keep in mind that Annihilate involves summoning the very life essences of roughly 100 average people (2D6 PPE for an adult? Or is 3D6?), spiritual about them besides their soul, and binding a ball of pure anti-matter in the palm of your hand, defying the innate nature of anti-matter while holding it above your hand, then single handedly tossing that anti-matter at a target your will deems fitting.

Keep in mind, you're doing all of this, including damage equal to a long range tactical multi-warhead all while chanting a bit and thinking about it really, really hard.

It would be unfair to say that a tech character, in order for a fair comparison, has to be buck naked, but still. How many tech based characters can call down the wraith of god like that?

It's not the be-all, end-all of damage, but off the top of my head, nothing but an equally supernatural-powered Cosmo-Knight can match that kind of damage as an individual (mutant with Multiple-Beings piloting a Battle Ram doesn't count ).

'Sides, the damage isn't 'only 800 MDC.' If I recall, you roll a strike to hit. Meaning it could get as high as 1600 MDC.

Damage and PPE don't really mean anything to me. On one end, you have a spell that does huge damage and has a huge PPE cost, so arguing that it should annihilate Everything seems reasonable. At the same time, to me, if your gonna count that, then to me a low PPE spell that does limited damage means it would have even less affect because of it's low mana cost. I'd be willing to say that if one says that because of one PPE cost and damage, as an annihilate spell would work to kill a vampire, Fear, a 6 PPE second level spell should not work on things such as Adult dragons.

[Kelorin]

When that desription was written, there was no spell of the sheer destructive power of Annihilate.
I say the description needs an update to cover all the magic spells that exist now, that didn't exist then (like Dessicate the Supernatural).

That's like saying that there are now lasers & other weapons that do 3x the damage that they did in the main book. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't be killed by magic just because there's better magic. Dessicate the Supernatural is a specific spell that gives specific effects. Otherwise, default to 'they can be incapacitated but not killed.'

I am willing to accept that convention (non-magical) weapons do not affect the blood suckers.
Magic is different. Magic can be used to fight just about anything in the megaverse(with a few exceptions, but then those exceptions tend to be weakened by some other force).
I suppose now, I'm not asking whether the Vampire is killed/destroyed by Annihilate (obviously the canon answer is "No").
Now, I'm asking, Is theis what Vampires are supposed to be, in terms of a threat? If I want to pull a creature that can survive Annihilate, to use against my high-level players, there are plenty of creatures to use.
Is this what vamps are supposed to be? For me, the answer is no.
I prefer Bram Stoker over Anne Rice.
Get your minds out of the gutter

Vampires are a lot like CS troops. Ridiculously pathetic if encountered in small groups, but insanely powerful if used correctly. They will take even experienced PC's if the PC's aren't equiped properly, or if they show up where you don't normally expect them. For example, there's supposed to be several of the leeches in the 'Burbs, or in Dregtown in Kingsdale. Sure the Leyline Walker comes standard with 6 wooden stakes, but what about most Juicers and Headhunters?

Also with pack creatures like Vampires, Gargoyles etc. anytime you run in to one of them, PC's should always assume that there a lot more of them very close by.

[Kelorin]

When that desription was written, there was no spell of the sheer destructive power of Annihilate.
I say the description needs an update to cover all the magic spells that exist now, that didn't exist then (like Dessicate the Supernatural).

That's like saying that there are now lasers & other weapons that do 3x the damage that they did in the main book. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't be killed by magic just because there's better magic. Dessicate the Supernatural is a specific spell that gives specific effects. Otherwise, default to 'they can be incapacitated but not killed.'

I am willing to accept that convention (non-magical) weapons do not affect the blood suckers.
Magic is different. Magic can be used to fight just about anything in the megaverse(with a few exceptions, but then those exceptions tend to be weakened by some other force).
I suppose now, I'm not asking whether the Vampire is killed/destroyed by Annihilate (obviously the canon answer is "No").
Now, I'm asking, Is theis what Vampires are supposed to be, in terms of a threat? If I want to pull a creature that can survive Annihilate, to use against my high-level players, there are plenty of creatures to use.
Is this what vamps are supposed to be? For me, the answer is no.
I prefer Bram Stoker over Anne Rice.
Get your minds out of the gutter

Vampires are a lot like CS troops. Ridiculously pathetic if encountered in small groups, but insanely powerful if used correctly. They will take even experienced PC's if the PC's aren't equiped properly, or if they show up where you don't normally expect them. For example, there's supposed to be several of the leeches in the 'Burbs, or in Dregtown in Kingsdale. Sure the Leyline Walker comes standard with 6 wooden stakes, but what about most Juicers and Headhunters?

Also with pack creatures like Vampires, Gargoyles etc. anytime you run in to one of them, PC's should always assume that there a lot more of them very close by.

That's what makes Vampires way more dangerous then other 'pack' threats. Except for Water based spells, you can't use area of affect type attacks on them. Each Vampire has to be staked individually to reliably kill it. Fighting a CS Platoon? Use River of Lava or Annhiliate. Bye bye Platoon. Fighting a similar number of Vampires? Unless you have Summon Storm, or Hydrokinesis, you'll have to chase down, immobilize, and stake every last one of them. At the same time, the remaining Vamps are attacking you every step of the way, and there is nothing that says the Vamps can't pull stakes out of their downed pals.

[cornholioprime]

That's what makes Vampires way more dangerous then other 'pack' threats. Except for Water based spells, you can't use area of affect type attacks on them. Each Vampire has to be staked individually to reliably kill it. Fighting a CS Platoon? Use River of Lava or Annhiliate. Bye bye Platoon. Fighting a similar number of Vampires? Unless you have Summon Storm, or Hydrokinesis, you'll have to chase down, immobilize, and stake every last one of them. At the same time, the remaining Vamps are attacking you every step of the way, and there is nothing that says the Vamps can't pull stakes out of their downed pals.

Hence the reason why even Lord Splynncryth fears their combined forces, and why even Atlantis is NOT assured an easy victory.

Hell, actually, Atlantis isn't really assured of Victory at all.........