Wormwood: Black Powder weapon conversion...

[Guest]

I am continuing to work on Brave New Wormwood, and am coming to the stuff that everyone loves: the weapons!

I thought that I would include some thoughts on just how you get/load/fire those cool TW Flintlock guns, and have come to the conclusion that the descriptions as found on page 35 of Wormwood are just porked!

I figure that the weapon is modified thusly: a small amount of black powder is poured into the barrel. Then Sorcerers Seal is cast on it, so it never falls out or gets wet. A Wormwood energy crystal (10 PPE, about the size of a robin's egg) is then attached to the hammer. The gun is cocked, and the when fired, the hammer falls.

The crystal hits the sealed black powder, and the spell is cast. Firebolt, range of 100', 4D6. The crystal must then be replaced with a fresh one, taking up one attack, and making these guns one shot, "breech loading" weapons just as they were in real life.

You could even have a double-barreled pistol (they existed) that would have two crystals, and fire two, simultaneous fire bolts for about D4x10.

But the rifle range would end up being the same as the pistol...100 feet as per the spell...not 700' as found in the book.

What think you all? Can you accept my version of things?

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I've long since posted my own WW firearms here, so I'll stay away from commenting on the mechanics of your approach and stick to offeirng suggestions on things you should add:

-pepper box pistols
-revolbing rifles and pistols (not "revolvers," but the sort of weapon where the barrels and flashpans were manually revolved to line up with the snaphause.
-Nock gun
-adding a "set" trigger
-bayonets (something that really should have been in the first book)
-bell gun/blunderbuss
-grenade cups

[glitterboy2098]

personally, i'm more for the "black powder with special properties" camp. in the comics supplied in the book, we see that the BP weapons still shoot bullets, so i'm not sure if a fireball spell would adequetely work.

however, the idea of a power crystal or power crystal shard in the hammer as a catalyst is a neat angle.

perhaps the innate magic in the crystal works to augment the black powder propelled ball with a magic boost.


either way, i'd say give each crystal at least a half dozen shots between replacing, to keep the reload times down. if you have to reload, recast, and replace the hammer between each shot, you'r looking at one shot every minute. a good BP weapon can get off 3-4 shots per minute if your fast enough on the reloads.

[Guest]

... if you have to reload, recast, and replace the hammer between each shot, you'r looking at one shot every minute. a good BP weapon can get off 3-4 shots per minute if your fast enough on the reloads.

The spell is built into the gun, so no need to re-cast, just supply the PPE. Average character has 4 or 5 attacks at first level.

Fire a charged gun -- one attack

Change Crystal -- One attack

Fire recharged gun -- one attack

Change crystal -- one attack

Fire gun one more time if you have it in you -- one attack
___________________________________________
Total number of shots -- 2 or 3 per melee...8 - 12 per minute. Way more than the flintlock on its own. See, what I don't want if for Joe Wormwood to be doing bursts and sprays with a BP Pistol. But if "techno wizardy is the technology of Wormwood", then I seem limited in all fairness to the rules for TW conversion.

That means that weapons that cast spells, must cast those spells.

But the idea of having one crystal last for more than one shot is interesting...

[Jefffar]

Even if it lasts for more than one shot, you still need to manually rooster the action between firings.

You still haven't addressed how the bullet is getting into the gun time and again either. That should cut down on rate of fire some.

Incidently, all the gunpoweder weapons I remember from the images look like muzzle loaders or break open style.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

The spell is built into the gun, so no need to re-cast, just supply the PPE. Average character has 4 or 5 attacks at first level.

Fire a charged gun -- one attack

Change Crystal -- One attack

Fire recharged gun -- one attack

Change crystal -- one attack

Fire gun one more time if you have it in you -- one attack

I don't see that as a reasonable solution.

First, you don't see the crystals in the comics, and such a system would logically have the crystal visible and available for a quick reload.

Two, if you really want to go for adding the "powder and ball" feel of a realoading process rather than just invisibly willing the PPE into the gun to recharge, why not make the process more akin to the real process: something carrying the PPE has to be pushed down the barrel and rammed into place to ensure sufficient contact with the crystal to recharge it. Once the recharge happens, this "ball" is absorbed by the process and the gun is ready to fire.

[Guest]

My biggest issue with a conversion system that involves just pumping PPE into the gun, is that, upon review, most of the OCC's in Wormwood have no magical powers. Although Knights of the Temple and Hospital have high PPE levels, they aren't men of magic...so they can't do jack with their PPE levels, including charging weapons.

The Apok have high PPE reserves, but can cast Communion Spells. So they would be able to charge a converted BP pistol or rifle with a mere thought.

Freelancers are just Joe Wormwood, and barring symbiotes, should have the base 2D6 of PPE. Again, since they aren't psychic or spell casters, they cannot charge a TW weapon.

Wormspeakers, Priests, and Monks...well, using BP weapons just doesn't seem to fit these particular OCCs...even though they could also charge them.

My point is, since a large majority of the fighters on Wormwood cannot charge a TW pistol or rifle, any black powder conversion that does not involve a replacement crystal seems to be pretty useless, doesn't it? I guess what I was thinking is that my Freelancer with his 6 PPE could still use a .50 Kentucky Long Rifle because he has a pouch full of small crystals (which you keep after firing...they will recharge themselves remember). Otherwise, I beter have a Priest of Light standing right next to me to load for me.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

My point is, since a large majority of the fighters on Wormwood cannot charge a TW pistol or rifle, any black powder conversion that does not involve a replacement crystal seems to be pretty useless, doesn't it? I guess what I was thinking is that my Freelancer with his 6 PPE could still use a .50 Kentucky Long Rifle because he has a pouch full of small crystals (which you keep after firing...they will recharge themselves remember). Otherwise, I beter have a Priest of Light standing right next to me to load for me.

That's why I'm saying stay away from the crystals but use something else -- something that recharges the crystal. If you go the crystal route you're either going to have b.p. firearms that have these odd crystals sticking out of them (which detracts from their coolness appeal, IMHO), or you have "break open" weapons that would be a poor design considering the alternatives available.

One of the major problems that was glossed over in the original book is one of keeping the human cities supplied. Have it that the ammunition (perhaps smaller crystals that have to be placed down the barrel, like bullets and powder in real b.p. weapons) needs to be constructed and charged in "foundaries" (essentially, a special group of priests or the like charge the mini-crystals before shipping them out to the warriors) and then distributed. This gives you the problem of supply lines to work with while building your society information while maintaining the "it still has to be loaded" aspect to your weapons.

[Braden Campbell]

On a related note, I have taken a second look at the TW flintlocks found in CS Navy. The Queenston Harbor section if you care to give it a once-over.

The rifle and the pistol are built around a "slightly modified version of the Firebolt spell" that give it "greater range". Sure does! The pistol has a range of 800' and holds over 30 shots. The rifle has a range of 1600' and holds 50 shots!

So the internal battery of the rifle holds 350 PPE? (50 Firebolts at 7 PPE each) Yeah, right....

Firstly, the slightly more powerful Firebolt spell has 8 times the range of the original. I think only Powerbolt outdoes it.

And secondly, without sounding crass or flippant, could someone please explain to me, from a game material design point-of-view, how it is fair for Pat Nowak to build a weapon like this, when my PC Technowizard cannot possibly? (Firebolt has a range of 100'. Period.)

I am trying to design interesting, yet ballanced material for Wormwood. That, to my mind, means following the creation rules as laid out in the core rule book. However, if game designers do not have to follow the rules, then to hell with this thread...I'll just design whatever I want, and Rifter readers will have to love it.

ADDENDUM: Stormspire apparently also builds a Firebolt pistol with yet another version of the spell. Their pistol has a range of 450 feet, with an internal battery that must then hold 70 PPE (Federation, pg. 113)

So, seriously... are there three versions of this spell, or do game designers not have to follow the same rules as their players?

I'm begining to see where the ballance went...

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

It's a different dimension where traditional magic isn't as prevalent as the native magic -- who is to say that the firearms of WW can't be made differently as a result? After all, the process would logically adapt itself to the easiest method available to the natives.

[Braden Campbell]

so what about something like a wad?

For those who aren't sure, a wad, was a small paper packet that contained a pre-measured amount of gunpowder. You ripped it open, dumped it down the barrel, packed it, and away you go. More or less.

How about if Wormwood guns require a wad to fire. The powder in the packet is ground up PPE crystal, charcoal (I guess from burning Wormwood pillar trees), and a saltpeter substitute derived from food caves, and resin shards.

The wad is poured into the barrel of the gun, and the enchantment is ready to go at the pull of the trigger.

With this conversion, no actual spell is involved. The ingredients combine to form a magical load that is then fired ...range being the same as it would be for a non-TW-adapted gun.

[Jefffar]

In some militaries, the bullet was in witht he wad too, and the soldier litterally bit the bullet and tore open the wad with his teeth, dumped the wad down the barrel, spit the bullet down the barrel then packed it all down.

Considering the bulelts of the time were lead balls, I wonder how many soldiers of the period suffered from lead poisoning.

[Braden Campbell]

According to my research, the range on these things, as far as Palladium weapons go, is going to suck!

Pistols - average 75' max
Shotguns - known to get 150' at best
Rifle - most calibres max out at 300'

This is based on the notion that the magical enchantments will make the guns act as they normally would in regards to range and damage.

Which is great! It means these "new fangled guns" still cannot replace an expert Long Bowman, which is what I wanted. Also, combat on Wormwood is still very much in your face.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Pistols - average 75' max
Shotguns - known to get 150' at best
Rifle - most calibres max out at 300'

Switch them to yards and you have, more or less, numbers that are close to reality for flintlocks.

[Jefffar]

According to my research, the range on these things, as far as Palladium weapons go, is going to suck!

Pistols - average 75' max
Shotguns - known to get 150' at best
Rifle - most calibres max out at 300'

This is based on the notion that the magical enchantments will make the guns act as they normally would in regards to range and damage.

Which is great! It means these "new fangled guns" still cannot replace an expert Long Bowman, which is what I wanted. Also, combat on Wormwood is still very much in your face.

Heh, that works.

The real reason that these sorts of weapons replaced the longbow was that it takes a big, strong man and years of practice to be able to properly use the longbow while an average sized fellow with a week of parade ground instruction knows all that he needs to know about the musket.

Oh, btw, your "Rifle" is actually a smooth bore musket. The real rifles of the comperable period had a reach probably 3 to 4 times that . . . but required about 4 times as long to load because the tollerances for the barrel were tighter. They were also more expensive. That's why Riflement tended to get clustered in elite units and used as light infantry.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Oh, btw, your "Rifle" is actually a smooth bore musket. The real rifles of the comperable period had a reach probably 3 to 4 times that . . . but required about 4 times as long to load because the tollerances for the barrel were tighter. They were also more expensive. That's why Riflement tended to get clustered in elite units and used as light infantry.

A typical smoothbore musket (a Brown Bess, for example) was most accurate at 100 yards, a Baker Rifle about 350 to 400 yards. The Baker took about twice as long to load.

[Braden Campbell]

Pistols - average 75' max
Shotguns - known to get 150' at best
Rifle - most calibres max out at 300'

Switch them to yards and you have, more or less, numbers that are close to reality for flintlocks.

Quite right, those should be yards...not feet. My fault for posting so late at night.

Pistols then should fire for about 200-225 feet
Shotguns - 450 feet
Rifles/ smoothbore muskets/ similar long arms - 900'

Reload time, even with a magical wad, should be at least one melee round...just like the rules for loading a revolver. This would give a character a rate of fire equal to 3 or 4 shots per minute. Which is what it really was.

I think for the purposes of my Rifter submission (and ease of play) I'll not get too heavily into the distinction between weapon types of the period, or various calibers. Maybe later on, I (or someone) could do an expanded look at Wormwood gun conversion.

But bayonets, Steve, are already in there. My players and I have used them for years, and we love them.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Are you trying to emulate the inaccuracy of real flintlocks or just leaving that out as something magic compensates for?

Also, to be more accurate, the range given for shotgun would be for firing ballshot, but would be radically reduced for fowling rounds.

[Braden Campbell]

In terms of game play, I'm inclined to think that the loooong reload time is penalty enough...magic can take care of the inability to hit anything.

What I would like to keep though, is the building effect of smoke as lots and lots of shots go off...cannon too. Blinding, billowing, acrid smoke fits the setting. The charcoal in the magic powder mix, maybe.

Been a while since I looked though it, but Transdimensional Turtles has WP Black Powder...anyone know if it gets any bonus to strike at all?

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

What I would like to keep though, is the building effect of smoke as lots and lots of shots go off...cannon too. Blinding, billowing, acrid smoke fits the setting. The charcoal in the magic powder mix, maybe.

Maybe have it bluish-grey or the like to distinguish that it's magical and not simple black powder.

Been a while since I looked though it, but Transdimensional Turtles has WP Black Powder...anyone know if it gets any bonus to strike at all?

Yes, but you'd be better off using Rifts and some good, solid research for your Wormwood material. The information on black powder weapons in TDT was highly lacking in accuracy.

[Braden Campbell]

Accuracy? We don't need no steenkin' accuracy.

[Jefffar]

Important lesson about black powder weapons, the differences between a rifle and a musket.

The musket was the most commonly issued long arm of the black poweder period. It was a smoothbore like the modern shotgun and fired a round ball. It had two advantages at the time, it was easier to make and it was easier to load. The result was that you could field a lot of troops with it and have them fire relatively quickly (3 to 4 shots a minute was pretty typical). It was however relatively innacurate and relatively short ranged, resulting in it really only being useful in engaging large bodies of troops. In short, the musket was the weapon of the clashing armies firing in mass volley against other bodies of troops.

Rifles were so named because they have a rifled barrel fitted with interior grooves. These grooves impart spin to the bullet (rifles tended to fire actual bullets rather than balls) which makes it fly straighter, further, resulting in greatter accuracy and a greater effective range. On the down side, the riffle bullet needed to grip the sides of the barrel, which made muzzle loading slower by comparison to the musket. Rifle troops could be expected to produce 1 to 2 shots a minute, but with their higher accuracy and longer effective range they tended to attack enemy officers. Rifles were also more expensive to make. As a result rifle men tended to be specialists and were used as elite skirmishers, protecting the main body from light infantry, cavalry and picking off enemy scouts, officers, artillery crews and sharpshooters.

Because of the more difficult loadig procedure and the need to be able to accurately engage targets at longer ranges, riflemen tended to be professional soldiers, unlike the conscripted masses that operated the muskets. The most notable exceptions being the American millitia riflemen who harried the British forces from outside of musket range for most of the war.

Anyway, what I'm approaching from the back door is that it looks like you are using the same stats for rifles and for muskets and that is wrong. The stats you are using for shotguns are more appropriate for the musket while the general longarm stats you are using are more appropriate to the rifle.

[Braden Campbell]

ok. Lets talk damage.

If pistols and muskets are firing a lead (or in this case resin) ball that is generally fitted to the diameter of the barrel, should a rifle do more damage than a musket, given that its firing an actual bullet?

For that matter, what is a realistic damage rating for a calibre of .625 or .53, amoung others?

And pistols? A flintlock smoothbore could have a calibre of .44. Is it then unreasonable to have it inflict 3D6 or 4D6 damage?

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

ok. Lets talk damage.

If pistols and muskets are firing a lead (or in this case resin) ball that is generally fitted to the diameter of the barrel, should a rifle do more damage than a musket, given that its firing an actual bullet?

Flintlock rifles didn't fire bullets as we now think about them. They fire pistol balls wrapped in a greased piece of paper. The greased paper allowed them to fit into the rifles grooves better, allowing less gas to escape around the ball (helping it travel farther), thus why the smaller ball was needed. So, for rifles you'd get better range and accuracy, but the damage of a pistol.

For that matter, what is a realistic damage rating for a calibre of .625 or .53, amoung others?

It varies because calibers back then weren't all that accurate because of how the bullets were made. You'd be best off choosing what you will consider to be your standard bullet size and assign it a damage amount and then adjust it up and down from there accordingly.

And pistols? A flintlock smoothbore could have a calibre of .44. Is it then unreasonable to have it inflict 3D6 or 4D6 damage?

You'll find that there was much greater variance than just .44. There were small, single shot flintlock pocket pistols and you can go as high as hand gonnes and claim they are ancient weapons of heritage.

[Jefffar]

Yeah, standardizing damage on calibre would be pretty difficult.

I'd say most of the long arms would probably be in the 4 to 6D6 range. While thjey fired at a much lower muzzle velocity than todays weapons, they still fired a big heavy mass of lead which typically resulted in pretty massive trauma.

Pistols I'd keep in the 3-4D6 range, with some pocket pistols dropping down to 1-2D6.

Of course, you could always increase the ammount of powder if you wanted a bigger bang . . . at the cost of possibly blowing up your weapon.

[Braden Campbell]

Awesome guys. I'll make good use from all of this.

The premise behind this discussion is that, largely, the guns come from Worldgate. The Wormwood under the Free City is dying, and cannot provide enough food, water and stones for its people. So they steal needed items from other worlds, and trade them for the neccessities of living.

they also rent out a very large fighting force...the Worldgate New Model Army. it is composed mostly of conscripts taken from other fantasy worlds by press gangs. The officers are native to Wormwood.

This "modern" army will make heavy use of guns, canon, even bombs...a stark difference to the Cathedral and the other Dominions who are still on a tech level of about 1400 AD.

[taalismn]

On the subject of exotic gunpowder weapons I was going to suggest looking at the militrause(an early multi-barrel attempt at a machine gun), but can't find anything substantial online(perhaps I have the spelling wrong?)...
I DID however find the following:
http://www.4to40.com/earth/science?inde ... machinegun

The 1755 handheld 16-barrel rifle looks like something a steampunk cyborg or superstrong Wormwood denizen might be packing....impractical to load in a hurry of course(unless it was a TW energy weapon) but extremely scary....not to mention, if built with the right materials like ironwood, one heck of a bludgeon!

[Jefffar]

I thought the militrause was more typically a multi-barrelled contraption wheeled aroudn like a cannon and it fell out of favour when it was discovered that grapeshot (think shotgun cartridge for a cannon) was just as effective, faster loading and kept you from having to haul an extra type of weapon.