Do you support the Coalition? Come vote.

[Trencher]

You mess with the Cactus-people then your messing with me..

[SirTenzan]

What are my thoughts on the Coalition States? The Coalition States are misled, in every aspect of the term, by their leadership. Emperor Prosek, while I have never met him, strikes me as a being who believes he is doing what is right for his people. Being brought up in another part of the world where friendly and unfriendly otherworldly beings were present, I recognize that there is a difference. That same token reveals to me that magic can be used for both good and bad applications.

Unfortunately in their ignorance and fear of the unknown the leadership has adopted a knee-jerk reaction to any otherworldly presence or mystical encounter. Many Coalition soldiers have seen and learned that not all otherworldly beings and magic users are vile or evil. Yet when they pass this knowledge on through their chain of command they are quietly removed, for fear that they have been somehow corrupted by the enemy. It's a brutal and unfortunate cycle.

The only thing that can save the Coalition States is if their leadership is altered or otherwise removed. In the meantime I believe that thwarting their expansionist and destructive approach to other species and peoples is a necessary task. A task which I have eagerly accepted at many times in my career. As my bounty sheet no doubt will indicate.

Do I believe that all of the people of the Coalition States should die? Not by any stretch of the imagination. I face them when I must.

Do I believe that the people of the Coalition States are Evil? Not at all. Take for instance Tolkeen. An entire Coalition platoon defected to our allied efforts to extricate Tolkeenite refugees from the war zone in the closing weeks of the war. They had been given orders to flank our position from which we were airlifting refugees from, in support of a mechanized company approaching from the East on the very road our transports were using as a runway. They refused to follow this order. They had seen enough civilians like these we were rescuing blasted apart and ground beneath the treads of the Coalition war machines. By defecting they warned us of the impending attack - and this highlights to me that the people of the Coalition States are not the problem. The people's eyes can be opened to the truth - but more than just a platoon needs to see it to make a difference.

Do I hate the Coalition States? I hate what their fear and ignorance has done to the people of North America, and to the people of the Coalition States themselves. I do not, however, hate the people of the Coalition States. Though there may be individuals who are among their ranks which I may honestly say that I hate. Rapists, soldiers who revel in murdering innocent otherworldly beings, and so on would fit that category.

Do I hate Emperor Prosek? No, hate is too strong of a word. I strongly dislike what he has led his people to do. I detest his methods of governing, as I also detest his policy on magic and otherworldly beings. As a person, however, I do not know him well enough to say; this man is evil, he must die. For all I know he may be a frightened old man who knows too little about the world around himself to really be comfortable without a cannon pointed at anything around him that moves. Personally I would like the opportunity to meet the Emperor to speak with him and to learn of why he leads his people in such a way. I think he and I could learn a great deal from such a meeting. IF I were to learn he wages these campaigns merely for his own profit for power or wealth, however, yes, I could say truly that I would then hate him and would do everything in my power to bring him beneath my blades.

- Excerpt from an interview with Tamiya Naiyan, CS 3rd Most Wanted, reputed terrorist and accused war criminal.

That's one of my character's takes on the Coalition States. Ask another character of mine and you will come up with a completely different answer. David Underhill, a Colonel in CS Special Forces for instance, he is a die hard CS patriot.

[dark brandon]

Whoa, I hope your joking because that's an odd way to debate your point "No one likes to go out and slaughter baby rats, to crush their weak little crying forms under their boot" is that the equivalent of slaughtering baby humans from another dimension? That use of language is slightly disturbing.

Why? It's just a game. The use of that language in the context of the game isn't all that disturbing.

However when it was humanities' stupidity that brought about the rifts in the first place and it was not an "invasion" as most CS supporters seem to think.

Reread the coming of the rifts. It wasn't just man's stupidity as you put it. It was a combination of alot of things. It could have very well seemed like an invasion in the first place.

The real stupidity of the CS is that they refuse to try and use magic in any way yet they will study it in the vain hope of somehow controlling it without using it. It's like trying to understand physics or chemistry through observation without experimentation.

I wouldn't call it in vain. They may very well figure out a scientific reasoning for PPE/Ley Lines.

[dark brandon]

Yet Inhuman and superhuman mutants are considered inhuman monsters to be purged on sight. Huh? Tell me how does any species evolves when variations are purged instantly?

Techniqually speaking, Psi-stalkers are concidered "evolutions answer" to the coming of the rifts, yet are not purged on sight.

[Nxla666]

Also the CS is studying the ley lines and rifts that the job of the Rift Control and Study Group who has abilities similar to the Line Walker.

So the argument that the CS is only attacking out of ignorance loses some strength.

[Larsen]

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Dbees do not = Humans.

true

I can scientifically prove humans are humans.

true

Ican also prove that not all dbees are humans and that they are not equal.

in real life no you really can't but anyway your right in game some aren't equal they are worse off and here's the real reason the cs kills d-bees some are better than humans. I'm gonna repeat that so everyone can see it some d-bees are better than humans.

[Larsen]

Again... You wouldnt let your kids play with sewer rats... you wouldnt just let a bunch of cockroaches infest YOUR house. In the end a MAN protects his OWN. The CS wont kill the D-Bees if they would just "go away" on their own, but like ants they dont. They infest and infect the land, turning innocent men away from their one duty "protecting his family" with magics and other wierd strange dangerous things. If you got racoons in the attic you chase them out or call the exterminator cause sooner or later they get in and bite your children...

Coalition not because they want to, becasue they have to...

Barney

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Apples and Oranges... No SANE people ever volley for the rights of the Cockroach to inhabit your home. HUMAN rights are just that and Im sorry I dont think the Declaration of Independence extended to Monkys, Whales, or Sewer Rats... No matter how cute and cuddly they look with their babys.

Barney

You know if you want to play your games that all d-bees are evil, unintelligent scum go right ahead. But here we got people who can actually read the books. And we read that some of the d-bees are just as intelligent and some more so than humans. Using your flawed logic above that would make the humans the vermin that need to be squashed. Appearances aren't what matter its the brains and the conscience inside the body that matter.

[Blight]

Which race is better will be decided by attrition (and the writers). If these critters were so darned better they wouldn't be getting killed would they?

[Larsen]

Which race is better will be decided by attrition (and the writers). If these critters were so darned better they wouldn't be getting killed would they?

Give them the cs weaponry and stick them in a **** hole town and see who dies.

[grandmaster z0b]

Also the CS is studying the ley lines and rifts that the job of the Rift Control and Study Group who has abilities similar to the Line Walker.

So the argument that the CS is only attacking out of ignorance loses some strength.

They do not have abilities similar to a ley line walker as the main ability of a ley line walker is to cast spells. In fact it's further proof of how stupid and hypocritical the CS are as they will let the RCSG ley line reguvinate yet not actually learn magic. It's like saying a person who can change a light bulb has similar abilities to an electrician.

[RainOfSteel]

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Dbees do not = Humans.

I can scientifically prove humans are humans.

I can also prove that not all dbees are humans and that they are not equal.

Well now! I think your position is quite clear at this point.

I can't really go any further here. It's a racial prejudice slugfest after this.

[RainOfSteel]

Apples and Oranges... No SANE people ever volley for the rights of the Cockroach to inhabit your home. HUMAN rights are just that and Im sorry I dont think the Declaration of Independence extended to Monkys, Whales, or Sewer Rats... No matter how cute and cuddly they look with their babys.

Barney

[RainOfSteel]

[quote="RainOfSteel]
And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Thats it on the button.[/quote]

[RainOfSteel]

[...]People bring "foriegn species" to different places all the time, like mice in Australia or bowl weevils in Central California. We still try and exterminate them. It's not about supremacy or dominance, it's about understanding and carving out a nitch in an environment.

This position attempts to reduce humanity itself to the level of non-sentients. "Carving niches," and all. This is something that insect fall into, not something that people build for themselves.

And that's what we're really talking about. Sentient rights. Human rights, as being discussed here so far by me, is equivalent to all rights for all intelligent beings.

No exlusions are possible. One sentient = any other sentient. If one sentient may be denied rights, they any other sentient may be denied rights. If an Azverkan can be shot, tortured, etc., without legal repercussion, then so may any Homo Sapien.

[grandmaster z0b]

I think trying to argue that d-bees are like animals and not sentient is just illogical. Really I have read far better pro-CS arguments than that, it's like you actually accept the CS propaganda even when it says that the CS leadership actually don't believe it.
The books make it clear that an elf is intelligent and self aware therefore it is true, there should be no argument.

Why not at least argue something like "humans have more of a right to this planet" or "as a species we have a right to fight for our survival"? I still think there are flaws in these arguments but at least they make some sense.

[Larsen]

Again... You wouldnt let your kids play with sewer rats... you wouldnt just let a bunch of cockroaches infest YOUR house. In the end a MAN protects his OWN. The CS wont kill the D-Bees if they would just "go away" on their own, but like ants they dont. They infest and infect the land, turning innocent men away from their one duty "protecting his family" with magics and other wierd strange dangerous things. If you got racoons in the attic you chase them out or call the exterminator cause sooner or later they get in and bite your children...

Coalition not because they want to, becasue they have to...

Barney

And that flushes the last 150+ years of glacially improving race relations down the proverbial toilet, right after human rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Apples and Oranges... No SANE people ever volley for the rights of the Cockroach to inhabit your home. HUMAN rights are just that and Im sorry I dont think the Declaration of Independence extended to Monkys, Whales, or Sewer Rats... No matter how cute and cuddly they look with their babys.

Barney

You know if you want to play your games that all d-bees are evil, unintelligent scum go right ahead. But here we got people who can actually read the books. And we read that some of the d-bees are just as intelligent and some more so than humans. Using your flawed logic above that would make the humans the vermin that need to be squashed. Appearances aren't what matter its the brains and the conscience inside the body that matter.

Again Apples and Oranges, you assume that "intelligence" is the gague at which we define importance of life. If that were true you would have to wince everytime a skellebot got destroyed...

But like you said if you wanna play your game demonizing the Coalition as bloodthirsty murderers thats fine. But some of us read the books we buy and understand the Deadboys are just doing their part to protect the vulnerable lives of humanity.

Barney

Obvisiouly you aren't reading the books then barney. The deadboys are being used as pawns by the cs. Good men and women are being manipulated to do what prosek wants. When I say cs I mean the government not the pawns at the bottom, ie the deadboys. Oh and heres the real kicker, I never said bloodthirsty murderers. I said prosek and his flunkies are tyrants. All in all his #1 agenda is wiping out those he doesn't like or can't use to his advantage, and staying in power. He knows that if his own people actually found out the truth that they would turn on him. So he keeps them ignorant. But you can ignore the part about him keeping his own people ignorant so they can be more easily moved around on his chess board if you want since there really is no excuse for that one.

And if the skellebots have true intelligence ie like the machine people of phase world. I am not talking about just really good programming that can be however the cs want the skells to be then they should be included in the range of being considered equal to humans. But if they have programming they cannot change this inhibits them from the table as it shows they are still too much like a normal robot to qualify.

[Larsen]

So your assessment is that our beautiful and powerful benifactor Karl is only out for himself. That he doesnt care about the normal man, he doesnt care about anyone but his family and power. BUT there are thousands and thousands of D-bees, most of which YOU pointed out are smarter stronger and better than normal people, just salivating to get out of the "dangerous burbs" and would sell their souls to be protected and safe. But of course Karl doesnt tap that little resource cause he's too buisy being a tyrant and he "Doesnt like them". He activly seeks to crush all extradimentional and or magic beings cause "They wouldnt join up..."

Thats the problem with all you CS hater conspiracy theorists. You just cant see humanity as being "good". We always gotta be the bad guy even when it was OUR world that was destroyed. I mean Im just a lowley tech, I walk through a holopark even night after working on damaged SAM'S and Spider Skull Walkers everyday. I SEE the damage these so called D-bees can do. I've washed enough good men out of suits of Abolishers and Enforcers to be thankful that my kids and wife are safe under the Coalitions protection...

Barney

Well since I can't speak for all "cs haters" and you can't speak for all pro-cs, I'm just gonna answer for myself and correct you because yet again you have read it wrong.

1. Prosek doesn't tap this resource because most importantly he knows that he cannot control them even if they did want to join up and then of course there is his stubborn bigotry toward anything not human, which you seem to share in.

2. If he did tap that resource no one could defeat him with the level and amount of tech he has mixed with magic/psionics/ and d-bee/supernatural ability he would possess.

3. Human beings aren't just the good guys. We humans run the gambit from goody two shoes to evil manical madman. The books themselves as well as looking around at the world will tell you that in just a few minutes.

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity. I notice you completely skipped that section of my last post. Couldn't find something to say on that? Explain that one. Explain how prosek can be such a great man and at the same time not educate his people so they can lead better lives and maybe pull themselves out of the gutter that most of them live in.

5. As far as Joe shmo walking down the way. He would be just as protected living in lazlo, where people are free.

[Blight]

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity.
I dont see were you get this in a state of emergency We the U.S. declair marshall law In times of the worst trouble some freedom have to be given up for safty. Committy rule kills in an emergancy.
5. As far as Joe shmo walking down the way. He would be just as protected living in lazlo, where people are free.

How do we know there is no lazlo book?

[Larsen]

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity.
I dont see were you get this in a state of emergency We the U.S. declair marshall law In times of the worst trouble some freedom have to be given up for safty. Committy rule kills in an emergancy.[/color]
5. As far as Joe shmo walking down the way. He would be just as protected living in lazlo, where people are free.

How do we know there is no lazlo book?[/color]

Here's the thing the cs isn't the us to start. To say so is a treasonous statement toward the good ole us of a. Also the cs isn't in a state of emergency anymore. Good evidence of that: they started a war on someone else. In a state of emergency where marshall law is needed there isn't enough anything to go around to do anything but defend let alone start a war with another nation and win.

and as for the second there is no lazlo book because there is no record of any printed. no one owns one. it isn't in the index. and ks himself said he would like to have a lazlo book come out some day but it hasn't happened yet. to say otherwise is just.........ridiculous.

[Larsen]

So your assessment is that our beautiful and powerful benifactor Karl is only out for himself. That he doesnt care about the normal man, he doesnt care about anyone but his family and power. BUT there are thousands and thousands of D-bees, most of which YOU pointed out are smarter stronger and better than normal people, just salivating to get out of the "dangerous burbs" and would sell their souls to be protected and safe. But of course Karl doesnt tap that little resource cause he's too buisy being a tyrant and he "Doesnt like them". He activly seeks to crush all extradimentional and or magic beings cause "They wouldnt join up..."

Thats the problem with all you CS hater conspiracy theorists. You just cant see humanity as being "good". We always gotta be the bad guy even when it was OUR world that was destroyed. I mean Im just a lowley tech, I walk through a holopark even night after working on damaged SAM'S and Spider Skull Walkers everyday. I SEE the damage these so called D-bees can do. I've washed enough good men out of suits of Abolishers and Enforcers to be thankful that my kids and wife are safe under the Coalitions protection...

Barney

Well since I can't speak for all "cs haters" and you can't speak for all pro-cs, I'm just gonna answer for myself and correct you because yet again you have read it wrong.

1. Prosek doesn't tap this resource because most importantly he knows that he cannot control them even if they did want to join up and then of course there is his stubborn bigotry toward anything not human, which you seem to share in.

2. If he did tap that resource no one could defeat him with the level and amount of tech he has mixed with magic/psionics/ and d-bee/supernatural ability he would possess.

3. Human beings aren't just the good guys. We humans run the gambit from goody two shoes to evil manical madman. The books themselves as well as looking around at the world will tell you that in just a few minutes.

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity. I notice you completely skipped that section of my last post. Couldn't find something to say on that? Explain that one. Explain how prosek can be such a great man and at the same time not educate his people so they can lead better lives and maybe pull themselves out of the gutter that most of them live in.

5. As far as Joe shmo walking down the way. He would be just as protected living in lazlo, where people are free.

1. What'da'ya mean he couldnt control them? You already said he has pretty much duped the "human" race into following blindly, that he rules as a tyrant. If he can captivate and utilized as population like the humans why not these so called "comparable" D-bees? Then again I forgot D-bees are smarter than humans and wouldnt fall for it I guess...

he can't control them because they are free thinkers. If he had started manipulatiing them from the beginning like was done to the cs citizens he wouldn't be having a problem now. Because as it stands now they know better then to trust prosek the d-bee killer and as a whole just like we would be united they are too strong to force into it.

2. Yeah, so the mean bad nasty tyrant who dreams of world domination and omnipotent reign, is just going to out and out refuse to use the one resource out there that would basically make him a GOD, cause he "doesnt like them."? Cam'on.....

yep what can I say bigotry makes you dumb.

3. Im not saying man can't be evil, but we are talking about humanity here as the whole. We are saving women and children, how can that be bad?

you know you sound a little like a nazi here were saving women and children how can that be bad? because your only saving one type of women and children.

4. There is a time and place for everything. You would jepordize all mankinds future so YOU could be educated and free? There will be a time when he educates the masses a time for us to sit and philosophize and prattle on about "Freedoms and Sentience". But we are at war, we are still vulnurable. Your asking the slave to worry about the luxury of freedom before the necessity of life... How many would be infected with this "Pro-D-bee" nonsence? How quickly would the Coaltion and Mankind fall if they just let everyone start following their emotions and trusting every tenticaled thing that crawled out of a Rift? Sure, we care about liberty and freedom. But lets make sure we are safe to experience those things FIRST. Sure in an It's a Small World type everythings perfect reality we could do both, but look at the world today. This is not that world, so Karl has to break a few eggs to make that cake...

Barney

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

[Larsen]

also really can't blue too well when people post in it using space pilot 3k don't you know.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

you know i find tthis just to funny Free quebec has education and somewhat a free press but yet they are still more anti-d-bees then the CS

[Larsen]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

you know i find tthis just to funny Free quebec has education and somewhat a free press but yet they are still more anti-d-bees then the CS

the topic isn't free quebec now is it? the topic is the cs. seperate topic altogether.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

you know i find tthis just to funny Free quebec has education and somewhat a free press but yet they are still more anti-d-bees then the CS

the topic isn't free quebec now is it? the topic is the cs. seperate topic altogether.

well i'm talking about FQ before they lefted the cs they still had the same thing going on

[Larsen]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

you know i find tthis just to funny Free quebec has education and somewhat a free press but yet they are still more anti-d-bees then the CS

the topic isn't free quebec now is it? the topic is the cs. seperate topic altogether.

well i'm talking about FQ before they lefted the cs they still had the same thing going on

free quebec has always been a seperate issue from the rest of the cs. they never followed the rules really. but they are still wrong. they are still bigots. they are just more intelligent bigots. and because of that the people themselves can be held responsible for their actions becasue they do know whats going on and still choose to take that path. they are the ones that I shoot on sight with no remorse at all.

[Larsen]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

Yeah good thing all those slaves through out HUMAN history thought it better to be dead FREEMEN than to protect the lives of their family and themselves. Cause those freedomfighters, and all the successfull offspring they had who became doctors, engineers, preachers, buisness owners owe NOTHING to the small minded weak willed slaves that fought and toiled to stay ALIVE forgoing the luxury of FREEDOM to hopefuly provide their children with a chance later in life to make a change and or to live successfully when change had occured. Sure again in a perfect world, in your Dramatic Pre-rifts Vid Clips it's fine to cry FREEDOM at all costs at all times. But in reality change, progress, success takes time. And if your only ambition is your OWN liberty, your OWN need to free, withouth looking to the future to the freedom of your children then thats fine, it's selfish but it's fine. The coalition wouldnt want you anyway cause Karl and the rest of them are concerend with what REALLY matters the FUTURE of humanity..

Barney

if you'll look back at those slaves who your talking about, if they had a gun and a way to escape they would have killed the one that kept them ignorant and down. which in this case would be your precious karl. and the coalition wouldn't want me because i like to think on my own and im not a drone. and the future of humanity lies with people like lazlo more than that of the cs.

[Larsen]

if you don't have education and some freedom there is no point to continuing in the first place. better to be dead than an ignorant slave with no chance of becoming more. also the only reason the cs is in such a big war in the first place is because they refuse to see the good along with the bad. its just all bad to them. and yes if they did educate and give freedom the cs would fall. the cs would fall because the people would see through the bs and the majority would out prosek and his minions. and in case the glasses are too rosy colored barney there other humans out there that aren't under the manipulative eye of the cs. and guess what they are surviving and educating their children and doing just fine. Granted there isn't a whole lot of 'em but there are still civilizations that survive just find without the cs.

but whats the point in continuing with you? Your either too stubborn to see whats clearly right in front of your face or you have prejudices that will not allow you to see it. bigotry limits the mind.

you know i find tthis just to funny Free quebec has education and somewhat a free press but yet they are still more anti-d-bees then the CS

the topic isn't free quebec now is it? the topic is the cs. seperate topic altogether.

well i'm talking about FQ before they lefted the cs they still had the same thing going on

free quebec has always been a seperate issue from the rest of the cs. they never followed the rules really. but they are still wrong. they are still bigots. they are just more intelligent bigots. and because of that the people themselves can be held responsible for their actions becasue they do know whats going on and still choose to take that path. they are the ones that I shoot on sight with no remorse at all.

Again with the Bigotry... is it bigotry to herd and slaughter cows? is it bigotry to grow plants in a garden? is it bigotry to not ask your dog before taking him on a walk? NO...

Barney

i actually do ask my dog if he wants to go. and he is smart enough that if he doesn't want to go he lies down in his bed and if wants to go he runs to his leach and starts begging. growing plants in a garden is good sometimes because they can't grow anywhere outside of it(might not be the right conditions and all that). and herding and slaughtering cows isn't bigotry because they aren't sentient. if they could speak, think, and respond on our level and it could be proven guess what barney it would probably become illegal to eat cow.

but anyway on the topic at hand. no those aren't bigotry but slaughtering asians or women or blacks or russians because they aren't white is bigotry. you see barney we aren't talking about unintelligent things here. we aren't talking about stationary lifeforms like plants. We are talking about beings that use higher brain functions/have logic and deductive reasoning and can do and respond basically the same way you do. So to sum it up for you.

We are talking about treating intelligent beings as equals because they are equal to us. Whether or not they are as intelligent as humans is not up for debate. Go open a book and look at the stats. As zob said earier

I think trying to argue that d-bees are like animals and not sentient is just illogical. Really I have read far better pro-CS arguments than that, it's like you actually accept the CS propaganda even when it says that the CS leadership actually don't believe it.
The books make it clear that an elf is intelligent and self aware therefore it is true, there should be no argument.

Why not at least argue something like "humans have more of a right to this planet" or "as a species we have a right to fight for our survival"? I still think there are flaws in these arguments but at least they make some sense.

those are much better arguements. they are still wrong but at least they aren't this....is it bigotry to slaughter cows ******** you keep coming up with.

[Larsen]

Again your making the arbitrary assumtion that "intelligance" is the threshold for accpetance. The CS doesnt make that disction, they day HUMAN and I contend that's the right contention. I mean I could go around saying "Everything with Ears demands to be on the same level..." it wouldnt be correct but I could say it.

Barney

and that paragraph right there is why the cs will never be the best hope for humanity. You know back in the slavery days they didn't see blacks as human either. They "didn't see the distinction". they saw them as property. it was ok to slaughter them and do whatever do them because they were property. Your arguement and their is one and the same. They were wrong then and your wrong now.

And if you can't see that your arguement is the same arguement of the plantation owners back then, and still just wrong, then you have more problems than this game my friend.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i see the coalition doing more active stuff vs everybody esle sitting on their equal standards for everybody

last time i check devil's gate was partolled by the coalition dont see any other nations helping with that .
Then the Xiticix, but Lazlo had no problem in killing them, but the coalition does something like that and its the coalition is bad, evil, or anything esle along them lines
Then we get atlantis moving in on north america and the coalition is the only ones making plans,besides archie-3, but where are the freedom loving nations that are going to protect the weaker ones ...............still ***** and moaning about how evil the coalition is.
Now for the Vampires who are slowly coming, is lazlo going to rush to stop them i think not.

but i'm sure the Xiticix, beings on atlantis or the vampires will listern to your speeches of equals rights, i'm sure they will agree on equals right to be made into fungus, or slaves and food, or just food

[dark brandon]

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity. I notice you completely skipped that section of my last post. Couldn't find something to say on that? Explain that one. Explain how prosek can be such a great man and at the same time not educate his people so they can lead better lives and maybe pull themselves out of the gutter that most of them live in.

I hate to say it, but I do not believe in a "free society". Now, i'm not history buff, but from what I understand many great nations before US existed were not exactly free. Alexander the great, the start of the holy roman empire, even britain were all at one time ruled with an upper and lower class? Also, from what I understand Egypt at one time was extreamly democratic as well as a few greek nations, but they all fell.

[Blight]

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity.
I dont see were you get this in a state of emergency We the U.S. declair marshall law In times of the worst trouble some freedom have to be given up for safty. Committy rule kills in an emergancy.
5. As far as Joe shmo walking down the way. He would be just as protected living in lazlo, where people are free.

How do we know there is no lazlo book?

[dark brandon]

I'd feel more safe walking down the streets of Lazlo next to a dragon than I would living in Chi town. I'm not afraid of some huge ugly brute of a human that could rip me apart in present times. Why? because we have laws and in general most people respect and obey them (at least serious ones like assault and murder, not speeding), and I see the citizens of Lazlo being the same. In Chi town, however, my neighbor is super keyed up on anti magic propaganda that if he sees me through the window of my apartment, and I sneeze while turning on my TV, but he doesn't see the remote control in my hand, he''' probably call the authorities in on me for practicing magic. I'll then be dragged off to prison, interrogated and tortured until I believe anything they tell me, and admit that I am the high wizard Gandalf. After which I will be executed.

You just see some big ugly brute of a human. But in "reality" there is so much more that a dragon could do to you. Yeah, you should be afraid of them both of them. Next, while you may be arrogant enough to think of a dragon as an equal, would a dragon think the same of you? Read the descriptions of dragons again. I get a very different image of a creature that is a law abiding citizen and really, if it wasn't for other mega-damage creatures and humans in power armor or that wield magic, they probably follow the law at a whim. We do not (the average human) have the ability to wield magics, pilot power armor or the power of psionics.

and here's were were are gonna differ in views. I do not think that any creature, will see humans as equals, except for creatures like elves (even these pompus pretty boys don't see us as equals), dwarves and cactus people. Any creature of any real magical/psionic power is not equal to a human, no matter how much we want it to be. We are physically, mentally and all around weaker than many creatures.

As someone stated before, humans are the cockroaches of the universe. Now, i'm not saying that a few won't view humans as equals, but those who do view humans with any type of "love" i would think would be the type of love one show's to his favorite pet, not to his next door neighbor or his child or wife.

for example, zylo said he'd still ask his dog to go for a walk, the point is, it's still "his dog", not his fellow being of equal status.

The US is the most successful nation in the history of the world. Two main reasons for this. Its system of government/capitalism, and that it assimilates other people and cultures into its own, giving if hybrid vigor of sorts. Which brings me back to humanities greatest chance for survival is being in a melting pot with all these d-bees etc.-Zebra

You may be right, but unfortunatly, why would most creatures want humans to ride their coat-tails?

Well now! I think your position is quite clear at this point.

I can't really go any further here. It's a racial prejudice slugfest after this.

not quite in the way you think. Humans and dbees are not equal. The only thing that allows a human to be equal to many dbees is their kindness, otherwise, no, we would not be equal. We would be far infirior.

Here's another way to look at it. If rifts was full of snugglycuddlebunnies who were in nearly every way infierior to humans, even if they are sentiant, would we ever really look upon them as equals? If something bad happens to one (especially if they are so plentiful in numbers) would we really care all that much? It would only be by the grace of some humans working for equal rights that they would be equal, and even then, I do not think we'd hold them to the same level as a normal human, and I do not think that those creatures who are supirior to humans will ever see humans as anything more as cute "snugglecuddlebunnies".

[dark brandon]

And its the same argument groups like PETA and Greenpeace try to get people to swallow about Whales, Dolphins, Dogs, and the Green Bile Fly of Southern Florida.

Just because people in the past used the argument incorrectly doesnt mean it isn't valid. Humans are humans... quallifying non-humans as humans and validating your argument on a standard SET by humans is illogical...

In the end the lives of the few must be sacrificed for the Freedom of the many. The CS is the last bastion of hope for humanity, simply because it is the ONLY group that qualifys Humanity as being contingent on being human...

Barney

He has a good point. PETA proves the opposite of the argument.

These people actually called and complained about my radio station having a furby years back. Instead of giving it away, they played on the radio it's final moments as they ran over it with one of those road paver things. They got a call saying it was Cruelty to animals and by them doing this over the radio, it will entice people to do it with real animals.

[Nxla666]

Grandmaste zOb wrote:
Nxla666 wrote:
Also the CS is studying the ley lines and rifts that the job of the Rift Control and Study Group who has abilities similar to the Line Walker.

So the argument that the CS is only attacking out of ignorance loses some strength.

They do not have abilities similar to a ley line walker as the main ability of a ley line walker is to cast spells. In fact it's further proof of how stupid and hypocritical the CS are as they will let the RCSG ley line reguvinate yet not actually learn magic. It's like saying a person who can change a light bulb has similar abilities to an electrician.
_________________

What? They have Ley line Rejuve and Drifting SIMILAR to a Line Walker, I never claimed that they could cast spells so I dont see how that comes up and I never claimed that the CS wasnt a bunch of hypocrites all I said was that the CS WAS studying magic, what better way to destroy it.

[dark brandon]

What? They have Ley line Rejuve and Drifting SIMILAR to a Line Walker, I never claimed that they could cast spells so I dont see how that comes up and I never claimed that the CS wasnt a bunch of hypocrites all I said was that the CS WAS studying magic, what better way to destroy it.

hum...good point, this group may be the start of where the first mages (Mystics, maybe some sort of TW most likely) become accepted by CS.

I mean, as long as they can pass it off as a technological achievement, it may very well happen.

[Nxla666]

You know I just looked at the poll stats and 54 of you so called freedom lovers say you kill CS any time you see them, and you say the CS is homocidal at least the CS has OPENLY declared war on all magic users and D-bees.

[Nxla666]

So like the CS you went for the more expedient route.

[dark brandon]

The ability to inforce laws is what keeps most people in line, whether dragon or human. I never said all dragons or d-bees and humans could live together. Criminal dragons or d-bees would be in just as much trouble in a integrated society as humans would be.

Just because most dragons are arrogant powerhouses doesn't mean that they cannot live in a community with humans as equals. Sure by the strictist line humans and dragons aren't equal, but neither are you and I. Everyone has different abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. Just because any dragon is more powerful than any normal human doesn't automatically mean that all dragons will treat humans like pets or lesser beings. Just look at the England book and Africa. There are all kinds of Chang Ku running around who think of humans as equals, or thier kings! We also have the instance of Plato who seems to be a part of a COUNCIL that leads Lazlo, not a supreme sadistic ruler. He also used to be a librarian in Chi town... not exactly a cruel manipulator of the people type of job.

And as far as your snugglecuddlebunnies thing goes. Yes, I'm sure we would care. People are more than just thier stats. A human with developemental defects who has a low IQ and is physically deformed is just as much a person as you are. Killing, raping, torturing, beating, etc this person is just as much a crime as it would be to do those things to you. And if anything most people would find this person being violated in any of these ways more of crime than it would if it happened to you or me. My point is that most creatures in Rifts (with the exception of some gods, alien intelegences, and demons) including dragons are pyschologically pretty much the same as humans. What I mean is that they don't have drastically different ways of thinking. A dragon or simvan can just as easily see a kindred spirit and equal in humans as white people and black people can in real life.
-Zebra

I disagree. A dragon would not as easily see a human as a kindred spirit as a white and black people do in real life. Read the dragon descriptions. Only the young ones are really that kind of social, and for the most part, dragons as a whole realize they are a supirior life form. The examples you cited are exceptions rather than the rule. And unfortunatly, one does not know how far the 'exception' is?

Retarded people are still humans. A snugglefluffbunnie on the other hand is not human, and if they are all around 'lesser" humans in general will treat them as such. They may be no more than overly smart pets to us, who can talk. And thus, is how probably how more than a few races see us.

I honestly can see where you can think dragons may think of humans as equals, but there is a difference, a big difference between the differences between you and I and Humans and say any MDC creatures.

If anything, humans will always be very aware of how different they are how fragile compared to other "stronger" races, and no matter how they try to hide it, the will always feel threatened by it.

Your trying to compare the plight of Indians/Blacks/asians vs being accepted by the white man as Dragons/Vanguard brawlers/Grackltooths to humans. I see a similarity in the "anger/hate" ect...but I also notice a distinct difference. There is a large difference between the differences of a single species and the differences between species.

It's the same reaons I do not view CS as equal to Nazi's. There are similarities, but the similaries on which they are compared are different. Nazi's didn't have a real threat from jews. CS was actually attacked by demons, mages, magic.

Only the most tree hugging hippie will say that all life is equal, from the snake, to the birds, to a human. Why is it that the top of the ladder ends with humans? To me, if a life can be greater than one life, then there is no real "top", except by species status. The life of a human to a human is more important than the life of a chimpanzee. Just because one species is "Sentient" does not mean it's life is equal to another sentient life. The life of a human is less meaningful than the life of a grackletooth to another grackletooth.

If you came to a dragon, and told it a human child will die and a dragon hachling will die. the only way to keep them from dieing is to choose one. I firmly believe that the dragon will choose the hachling.

[dark brandon]

The point is that people in the past thought the same about different races as you say the CS feels about d-bees. The nazis thought of jewish people as less than human, just as slave owners thought of slaves as less than human.

I see what your trying to say, but it's still not the same. Any human can mate with another human. One could mate with a jew and produce a human child. You cant do that with a chimpanzee. The Nazi's tried to say they were less than human, but in fact, they were human. Your trying to say that, a dragon, is still a human. There is a fundamental difference in what the nazi's said, just as what you are trying to say.

I always thought that people in lazlo and cities like lazlo thought about being the same on a different level. They think of other beings as say, having the same soul, just a different body. Sure you look like a dragon or quick flex, but we are the same on the inside. We both have sentient thought, emotions etc.

But we are different. There is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing wrong with being different. But we are different. and there is a level of what difference is. The humans of lazlo want to be treated as equals, because without them, they would simply be pets or slaves. On the other hand, a few dragons are in the miniority of dragon kind that view humans as "equals". The differnce between a human child and a dragon child is too great to simply say "we are the same". You'd more than likely be insulting any dragon if you suggest otherwise, unless it was someone like Plato.

I am not saying all life is equal, but that doesn't mean that beings of different abilities can't live as equals. -Zebra

And I'm saying that they cannot. As I said before, It'd be difficult for me to send my child to a school where other children could blow him up with a thought. You could send them (MDC beings to another school, SdC ones to another) but there you have segragation, and that's just bound to lead to trouble. You can try to live as equals, but it will not last. At least not how I see humanity is. We'd feel threatened, nearly constantly. We might grow up being friends with some MDC being, but that one day when he gets mad and accidently breaks out arm like nothing...then we'd realize how extreamly dangerous they are and how completely powerless we'd be against them. That is where the trouble would start.

I think you have to understand, we have a difference in views. Perhaps it is my tainted view of living with a hippy friend that causes my jaded view, but where he believed everything was equal, I would have to say no. a human life is worth more than the life of any chimp. If our life can be worth more than another life, then another life can be worth more than a humans life, and it is simply by the graces of whoever happens to be on the council in lazlo that humans are concidered equal.

Saying that just because we are sentient beings automatically makes us equal to other beings is an arrogant and dangerous presumption.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

only time everyone is totally equal is when they are dead, until then i will kill without mercy the D-bees i see as a threat

[dark brandon]

Unfortunately for your arguements humans, d-bees, and dragons can live as equals. We see it in Lazlo, New Lazlo, New Camelot, The New Navy, Manoa, Tritonia, and countless other locations.

Can you give me examples of where humans, dbees and dragons do not live as equals on Rifts earth?

[Larsen]

Again your making the arbitrary assumtion that "intelligance" is the threshold for accpetance. The CS doesnt make that disction, they day HUMAN and I contend that's the right contention. I mean I could go around saying "Everything with Ears demands to be on the same level..." it wouldnt be correct but I could say it.

Barney

and that paragraph right there is why the cs will never be the best hope for humanity. You know back in the slavery days they didn't see blacks as human either. They "didn't see the distinction". they saw them as property. it was ok to slaughter them and do whatever do them because they were property. Your arguement and their is one and the same. They were wrong then and your wrong now.

And if you can't see that your arguement is the same arguement of the plantation owners back then, and still just wrong, then you have more problems than this game my friend.

And its the same argument groups like PETA and Greenpeace try to get people to swallow about Whales, Dolphins, Dogs, and the Green Bile Fly of Southern Florida.

first off peta and greenpeace don't kill people because they hurt animals. second peta and greenpeace harm more than they help also. Barney to say that being one extreme is better than being naive at best, and a total idiot at worst.

Just because people in the past used the argument incorrectly doesnt mean it isn't valid. Humans are humans... quallifying non-humans as humans and validating your argument on a standard SET by humans is illogical...

nevermind barney you obviously are not able to grasp the comparison. {insert pity here}

In the end the lives of the few must be sacrificed for the Freedom of the many. The CS is the last bastion of hope for humanity, simply because it is the ONLY group that qualifys Humanity as being contingent on being human...

Barney

you know the commies and the notable bad guys throughout history as well as in hollywood movies all said basically the same thing. THEY WERE STILL THE BAD GUYS. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And if the cs is the last bastion of hope for humanity than humanity in rifts is truely doomed to become eradicated.

[Larsen]

You assume they would, many would, others would understand that to be a death sentence and stay the course for their family especially their children... For the Future...

Just like Karl, heck maybe people dont like him maybe he smells funny, but if someone just up and killed him then the Coalition would decay into a jumbled mess and humanity would lose. Thousands of people would die, their futures erased. Like the dirty trespassing D-bees the Coaltion destroys...

Barney

if someone did kill him hopefully the cs would decay into a jumbled mess. Not likely because it is simply harder than that to kill a fanatic. That would be the best prayer for humanity. Thousands of people probably would die. And that would rest on the head of prosek and his regime for sending his people down that road to begin with. But humanity would not lose as the true hope for humanity does not lie in the cs and never has.

[Larsen]

i see the coalition doing more active stuff vs everybody esle sitting on their equal standards for everybody

last time i check devil's gate was partolled by the coalition dont see any other nations helping with that .
Then the Xiticix, but Lazlo had no problem in killing them, but the coalition does something like that and its the coalition is bad, evil, or anything esle along them lines
Then we get atlantis moving in on north america and the coalition is the only ones making plans,besides archie-3, but where are the freedom loving nations that are going to protect the weaker ones ...............still ***** and moaning about how evil the coalition is.
Now for the Vampires who are slowly coming, is lazlo going to rush to stop them i think not.

but i'm sure the Xiticix, beings on atlantis or the vampires will listern to your speeches of equals rights, i'm sure they will agree on equals right to be made into fungus, or slaves and food, or just food

to begin if the cs wasn't around most likely a allied nations of free men and women would have been formed. Also we aren't calling the cs evil for killing the monsters. That previous sentence is the one that all pro-cs seem to ignore. We call them evil because if it doesn't look human or if it uses magic or some other type of witchcraft it gets annilated. They don't even attempt to seperate good from bad. And not all d-bees are evil. The majority are what they are because of how they were raised. And if they were raised by their parents who told them that the cs is a heartless monster who kills without provocation or warning, guess what their feelings toward the cs will be? They will open fire on the heartless monster scum.

[Larsen]

4.If prosek was actually interested in securing the human race and protecting people he would have a free soceity. I notice you completely skipped that section of my last post. Couldn't find something to say on that? Explain that one. Explain how prosek can be such a great man and at the same time not educate his people so they can lead better lives and maybe pull themselves out of the gutter that most of them live in.

I hate to say it, but I do not believe in a "free society". Now, i'm not history buff, but from what I understand many great nations before US existed were not exactly free. Alexander the great, the start of the holy roman empire, even britain were all at one time ruled with an upper and lower class? Also, from what I understand Egypt at one time was extreamly democratic as well as a few greek nations, but they all fell.

So we should just forsake freedom because it is harder to maintain than totalitarian dictatorship? Ok, whatever go join whatever the latest group is that shares the same thinking as you. Who is it this time? Oh yea the taliban. Also as someone who enjoys studying history all nations throughout time have fallen at one time or another, no matter their style of government. After time wears on the people change. The first signs of civilization collapse are breakdown of the family unit, apathy, and isolationism toward your fellow countrymen. No government can last forever.

[grandmaster z0b]

Also the CS is studying the ley lines and rifts that the job of the Rift Control and Study Group who has abilities similar to the Line Walker.

So the argument that the CS is only attacking out of ignorance loses some strength.

They do not have abilities similar to a ley line walker as the main ability of a ley line walker is to cast spells. In fact it's further proof of how stupid and hypocritical the CS are as they will let the RCSG ley line reguvinate yet not actually learn magic. It's like saying a person who can change a light bulb has similar abilities to an electrician.

_________________

What? They have Ley line Rejuve and Drifting SIMILAR to a Line Walker, I never claimed that they could cast spells so I dont see how that comes up and I never claimed that the CS wasnt a bunch of hypocrites all I said was that the CS WAS studying magic, what better way to destroy it.

Huh? I never said that you said they could cast spells, and I'm making my own claims about the CS being a bunch of hypocrites. I'm not arguing with you I'm trying to make a point.

I made the original point and then you claimed that because the CS had RSCG scientists that my claim (which wasn't actually about the CS attacking out of ignorance anyway) lost some strength. A RSCG scientist understanding of magic is pitiful compared to a ley line walker so it's virtually irrelevant, if the CS were serious about studying magic then they should let their citizens actually study magic properly.

[Nxla666]

Agreed an RCSG is like a preschooler compared to the PhD. carrying Line Walker and the misinteratation went both ways as to our discussion, (cant remember who) but someone stated that the CS attacked out of ignorance of magic so the comment about the RCSG was a general retort to that.

[Larsen]

Agreed an RCSG is like a preschooler compared to the PhD. carrying Line Walker and the misinteratation went both ways as to our discussion, (cant remember who) but someone stated that the CS attacked out of ignorance of magic so the comment about the RCSG was a general retort to that.

I don't know about ignorance but I basically said out of fear of it.

[Nxla666]

That could have been it and I just remebered it as ignorance. Still you tend to fear what you are ignorant of.

[dark brandon]

So we should just forsake freedom because it is harder to maintain than totalitarian dictatorship? Ok, whatever go join whatever the latest group is that shares the same thinking as you. Who is it this time? Oh yea the taliban.

At least I can still tell the difference between what the game is and what it is in the real world. My thinking of how the rifts game should work/does work has no implication on my real world philosophy. If you are unable to separate the two, then please, I beg of you seak help, as RPers already get enough bad press as it is.

In otherwords, I"d never think someone a racist because they place GTA, or A nazi lover if they play CS or what have you, nor would I make any snide comments like "Go join the Taliban", which is just in bad taste and poor form.

In case your wondering, If we were talking about GTA my views would be completely different than they are say...playing rifts or if I'm playing TMNT's.

My comment about real life, I admited to not knowing history, but that Freedom does not mean a thing if people don't use it. Just because people are free doesn't mean the people are protected and secured, just as being enslaved does not mean one is crippled and helpless.