Magic VS Technology

[Tinker Dragoon]

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[Killer Cyborg]

Why is it that a majority of posters here have an easier time believing that magic has NO limits, but when it comes to creating a technological advance, you can't introduce one that will change the "feel" of the game?

Beats me.
I think that the limits of both magic and technology are pretty well established in the game setting.

I have tried to take current technology in development and put it into a Rifts game, but was 'shot' down because it would have changed the way the Coalition States would have viewed the rest of the region.

You mean the communications device that would increase the CS's power by at least 10x?
I'm against anything that would imbalance the setting that much.

Is this merely hatred for the way that the CS acts and not wanting to give them any advantages or a personal bias against technology in such a magic-rich game?

I generally try to give the CS every reasonable advantage in my games. They should be the most powerful nation in North America, and I run them as such.
Also, I tend to favor technology over magic.

What I am against is imbalance in the gameworld.
Introducing a new and radically powerful element into the world (tech or magic) should not be done unless one or more of the following conditions are met:
1. The new element is extremely rare, and effectively impossible to replicate.
2. The point of the entire campaign is to have the game world drastically altered, and to play out the world-shaking changes that would happen from such a new element being introduced.

[Guest]

Game balance mostly. Also, like i've heard before, if it could have been done, it would have. If you're honestly not happy with the views, just remember that in your games you run things your way. It's like Burger King, but better.

[Toc Rat]

Game balance. Technology already has enough advantages over magic. Not stopping there magic has many limitations placed on it. Things like "Will not work on Chi-town" or "Only two magical attacks per melee" or "Infared optics see right thru invisibility".

Magic is already been dumbed down and handi-capped to the point technology needs nothing new to defeat it every time in most battles.

[Kalinda]

Why is it that a majority of posters here have an easier time believing that magic has NO limits, but when it comes to creating a technological advance, you can't introduce one that will change the "feel" of the game?

I have tried to take current technology in development and put it into a Rifts game, but was 'shot' down because it would have changed the way the Coalition States would have viewed the rest of the region.

Is this merely hatred for the way that the CS acts and not wanting to give them any advantages or a personal bias against technology in such a magic-rich game?

I apply the exact same rules of thumb to every advance, be it magic or tech.

Will this advance unbalance the game and/or disrupt the balance of power on rifts earth too much?

Is this advance a reasonable extension of current tech/magic theory?


If anything I tend to be easier on magic because it's well, magic...

[RainOfSteel]

Magic on the other hand is unconfirmable and therefore the argument of "...and here's why..." does not apply.

Magic may be unfathomable, but magic (small case) refers to something you cannot describe or understand, and that is not the "PB Magic System".

PPE and the spells and items coming out of it, on the other hand, are quite describable, and follow many rules (many of which, but not all, are documented in various PB products). AoI costs the same PPE every time, and generates a fixed and fully knowable MDC based on the skill of the caster. If it really were unknowable, it wouldn't work all the time, and if it did work, it would require variable PPE, and produce variable MDC (500,000 MDC for a 1st level caster one time, 19 MDC for a 20th level caster another time, and everywhere in between); and there would be absolutely no detectable pattern to any of the variability (if there were some pattern, it would become "knowable").

[Toc Rat]

Magic on the other hand is unconfirmable and therefore the argument of "...and here's why..." does not apply.

Magic may be unfathomable, but magic (small case) refers to something you cannot describe or understand, and that is not the "PB Magic System".

PPE and the spells and items coming out of it, on the other hand, are quite describable, and follow many rules (many of which, but not all, are documented in various PB products). AoI costs the same PPE every time, and generates a fixed and fully knowable MDC based on the skill of the caster. If it really were unknowable, it wouldn't work all the time, and if it did work, it would require variable PPE, and produce variable MDC (500,000 MDC for a 1st level caster one time, 19 MDC for a 20th level caster another time, and everywhere in between); and there would be absolutely no detectable pattern to any of the variability (if there were some pattern, it would become "knowable").

Exactly. The "Magic" system in Rifts does follow(mostly) certain known rules.

[cornholioprime]

Why is it that a majority of posters here have an easier time believing that magic has NO limits, but when it comes to creating a technological advance, you can't introduce one that will change the "feel" of the game?

I have tried to take current technology in development and put it into a Rifts game, but was 'shot' down because it would have changed the way the Coalition States would have viewed the rest of the region.

Is this merely hatred for the way that the CS acts and not wanting to give them any advantages or a personal bias against technology in such a magic-rich game?

You're kidding, right???

A]] Offensive Magic has HALF the Range of MOST Tech Weapons.

B]] Magic in Rifts has Spells that SPECIFICALLY are limited against tech.

Or does the Phrase "Magic won't penetrate Cyborgs" (even though it does ALL sorts of awesome Effects all over the rest of the Megaverse) ring a bell??

I think it was the Poster Toc Rat who said (paraphrasing), half-jokingly, that some Spells are specifically designed to "not work against Chi-Town." He might have been joking, but a some Spell Descriptions actually do look as if they were specifically designed with limitations to give Chi-Town an edge or even an invulnerability to said Spell.

C]] Virtually ANY Mage less than Eighth Level or greater will exhaust himself of PPE, completely, after using a few Spells based on what they are -P.P.E. which will take DAYS to fully replace. His Tech counterpart still has a buttload of Ammo left in HIS Belt....

D]] We hear the Phrase, "Magic isn't intended to be a Battlefield Tool" or some such. IN ALL HONESTY, WHAT THE HELL ELSE DOES ONE REALLY WANT MAGIC FOR IN A ROLE-PLAYING GAME??? Casting Fertility Spells???



I understand COMPLETELY why KevSim found it necessary to hobble Magic like he did (because if Magic and Tech really had equal footing in this Game, then Magic would wipe the floor with Tech), which makes it puzzling enough when people say "Why can't Tech be more powerful???"

But it makes it FAR more puzzling to have people say "Why doesn't Kevin give Tech more Power to balance out Tech against Magic??"

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

[Kalinda]

Why is it that a majority of posters here have an easier time believing that magic has NO limits, but when it comes to creating a technological advance, you can't introduce one that will change the "feel" of the game?

I have tried to take current technology in development and put it into a Rifts game, but was 'shot' down because it would have changed the way the Coalition States would have viewed the rest of the region.

Is this merely hatred for the way that the CS acts and not wanting to give them any advantages or a personal bias against technology in such a magic-rich game?

You're kidding, right???

A]] Offensive Magic has HALF the Range of MOST Tech Weapons.

B]] Magic in Rifts has Spells that SPECIFICALLY are limited against tech.

Or does the Phrase "Magic won't penetrate Cyborgs" (even though it does ALL sorts of awesome Effects all over the rest of the Megaverse) ring a bell??

I think it was the Poster Toc Rat who said (paraphrasing), half-jokingly, that some Spells are specifically designed to "not work against Chi-Town." He might have been joking, but a some Spell Descriptions actually do look as if they were specifically designed with limitations to give Chi-Town an edge of even an invulnerability to said Spell

C]] Virtually ANY Mage less than Eighth Level or greater will exhaust himself of PPE, completely, after using a few Spells based on what they are -P.P.E. which will take DAYS to fully replace. His Tech counterpart still has a buttload of Ammo left in HIS Belt....

D]] We hear the Phrase, "Magic isn't intended to be a Battlefield Tool" or some such. IN ALL HONESTY, WHAT THE HELL ELSE DOES ONE REALLY WANT MAGIC FOR IN A ROLE-PLAYING GAME??? Casting Fertility Spells???



I understand COMPLETELY why KevSim found it necessary to hobble Magic like he did (because if Magic and Tech really had equal footing in this Game, then Magic would wipe the floor with Tech), which makes it puzzling enough when people say "Why can't Tech be more powerful???"

But it makes it FAR more puzzling to have people say "Why doesn't Kevin give Tech more Power to balance out Tech against Magic??"

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

Good post Cornholio.
I'd like to hear that explanation as well.

I personally love the idea that magic isn't suppose to be a battlefield tool, yet you can count the number of spells with 'daily life' uses on one hand...

[cornholioprime]

I personally love the idea that magic isn't suppose to be a battlefield tool, yet you can count the number of spells with 'daily life' uses on one hand...

Well said.

[demos606]

Magic, as it exists in Rifts Canon, is ******* laughable. This is why reasonable spells aren't reacted to the same way as the linked particles communication or 1d6x10 per shot sniper rifles. There are specific areas of technology that are almost as laughable as Magic in Rifts - tanks and giant robots namely. Any tech revisions introduced should revolve around fixing whats broken, not breaking something new. Introducing a completely unheard of level of technical power to the game further destroys an already questionable "balance" between magic and technology - magic is on the losing end and I suspect the only reason why Magic was introduced to Rifts in the first place was for people rifting to/from Palladium Fantasy.

[cornholioprime]

Magic, as it exists in Rifts Canon, is **** laughable. This is why reasonable spells aren't reacted to the same way as the linked particles communication or 1d6x10 per shot sniper rifles. There are specific areas of technology that are almost as laughable as Magic in Rifts - tanks and giant robots namely. Any tech revisions introduced should revolve around fixing whats broken, not breaking something new. Introducing a completely unheard of level of technical power to the game further destroys an already questionable "balance" between magic and technology - magic is on the losing end and I suspect the only reason why Magic was introduced to Rifts in the first place was for people rifting to/from Palladium Fantasy.

you know, I hadn't thought of it in that manner before.

What if KevSim actually DID introduce Magic into the Rifts Setting purely for marketing reasons????

Food for thought.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

[Jimmy Crat]

Magic, as it exists in Rifts Canon, is **** laughable. This is why reasonable spells aren't reacted to the same way as the linked particles communication or 1d6x10 per shot sniper rifles. There are specific areas of technology that are almost as laughable as Magic in Rifts - tanks and giant robots namely. Any tech revisions introduced should revolve around fixing whats broken, not breaking something new. Introducing a completely unheard of level of technical power to the game further destroys an already questionable "balance" between magic and technology - magic is on the losing end and I suspect the only reason why Magic was introduced to Rifts in the first place was for people rifting to/from Palladium Fantasy.

you know, I hadn't thought of it in that manner before.

What if KevSim actually DID introduce Magic into the Rifts Setting purely for marketing reasons????

Food for thought.

Na, IIRC he wanted to make a tech/magic war from the begining. So he just stacked the deck for who he wanted to win.

[demos606]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

[cornholioprime]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

C'mon, Killer, you and I BOTH know that one can find examples, here and there, where a Magic Item can beat its counterpart.

But we also both know that just the superior Range of Tech Weaponry alone should kick the holy crap out of Magic Weps. Of course, in KS's Universe, Seasoned Troops forego their Weps superior ranges and close with the Enemy in glorious, heroic Combat instead of thinning their Ranks from the get-go.

[[insert "fool/idiot" Emoticon here]]

The SAME way that we both know that the Coalition shouldn't have suffered even a THIRD of the Casualties that they did in the Tolkeen Siege, for example.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

[Dr. Doom III]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

How about a Power Halberd?
1D6X10

[cornholioprime]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

[demos606]

And whats to stop a CS grunt from taking one of the magic weapons as a "trophy" after he sees just how effective it is at killing his buddy? Magic only rules melee if one of the combatants is too stupid to level the playing field by bringing magic of his own. Of course, the CS grunt in question would have to be an idiot not to empty every clip he can before pushing for melee weapons... then again, KS does like his NPCs big and stupid for some reason - the lack of tactical command on both sides is just ridiculous.

[Jimmy Crat]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

What?
No boot knives!
I like the movie version better.

[Dr. Doom III]

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

Everyone gets a bayonet.

[Dr. Doom III]

And whats to stop a CS grunt from taking one of the magic weapons as a "trophy" after he sees just how effective it is at killing his buddy?

Being executed for using magic.

[demos606]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

Even the Marines don't issue melee weapons and bayonettes are viewed last resort weapons only when they're even available. Hell, the rifle butt makes a better weapon than a bayonette does.

[cornholioprime]

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

Everyone gets a bayonet.

Believe it or not, we don't (or at least we didn't when I was in; perhaps all of the House-to House fighting in Iraq will change that somewhat).

Our M-16s still do have Mounting Brackets where you can actually affix a Ka-Bar; but as to the Ka-Bar itself....gotta go buy your own.

[demos606]

And whats to stop a CS grunt from taking one of the magic weapons as a "trophy" after he sees just how effective it is at killing his buddy?

Being executed for using magic.

You can only be executed if you survive the fight in the first place, not real likely once you close to melee weapon range.

[Jimmy Crat]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

Even the Marines don't issue melee weapons and bayonettes are viewed last resort weapons only when they're even available. Hell, the rifle butt makes a better weapon than a bayonette does.

REALLY?!?!?!?!?
How much MD does it do?
j/k

[cornholioprime]

Again, you're kidding, right?? ''Cause if you're not, you can tell me exactly how Magic beats Tech in head-to-head Comparison....

CS Grunt with a vibro-sword VS. a Line Walker with a Battle Fury Blade (or Deathbringer).

Yep, deliberately stack the odds far in favor of the caster and of course they're supposed to win.

I gave the Grunt the best tech melee weapon, and I gave the caster one of the best magic melee weapons.
I'm not stacking the deck, I'm pointing out how the deck is already stacked.

You could go with a Juicer with a Juicer Chainsaw (5d6 MD) against a Battle Mage with a TW Chainsaw (1d4x10 + HF), but the odds would still be in favor of the mage.

Or you could go with a CS grunt with a Vibro-Sword against a Line Walker with a TW Flaming Sword, and the results would be the same.

Magic rules melee.

You are 100% correct.

However, in "real" life, how often does Melee Combat actually occur???

Believe it or not, not that often; there ARE times in every modern battle of modern Warfare when skirmishes do devolve into hand-to-hand Combat, but not very often at all, and I think that you'll find it telling that almost NO Military Force (REAL Real world this time) even bothers anymore to outfit its Soldiers with Melee Weapons........

Even the Marines don't issue melee weapons and bayonettes are viewed last resort weapons only when they're even available. Hell, the rifle butt makes a better weapon than a bayonette does.

REALLY?!?!?!?!?
How much MD does it do?
j/k

Okay, smart guy.

10 Ha-Ha Points.

And by the way, the Butt of the Rifle has its own Vibro-Field.....yeah, that's the ticket....

[Killer Cyborg]

And whats to stop a CS grunt from taking one of the magic weapons as a "trophy" after he sees just how effective it is at killing his buddy?

Being executed for using magic.

And most tech people can't use TW weapons anyway, although mages and psychics have no problems with tech.

[Dr. Doom III]

Believe it or not, we don't (or at least we didn't when I was in; perhaps all of the House-to House fighting in Iraq will change that somewhat).

Our M-16s still do have Mounting Brackets where you can actually affix a Ka-Bar; but as to the Ka-Bar itself....gotta go buy your own.

That's messed up.

[Killer Cyborg]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

[demos606]

Not really Doom, training revolves around killing people with your rifle, not running up and trying to stab them to death while being shot at. If you want close order combat training, spend a few years in a dojo cause the military aint gonna do it unless you go Special Forces. Even the Force Recon doesn't get a lot of close order combat though so yer still better off in a dojo, the training is better.

[cornholioprime]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

Understood...

..but if you're the Magic-Using guy, and you only have Melee Weps and/or short-range Spells, remember tha you're covering a distance of 2000 feet or more before you can even get into range (a little under seven [!!] Football Fields long)...PLENTY of time for the CS guy to unload a clip or two into you; even worse, unless your Magic-Using guy had some sort of Spell in place that removes his fatigue or gives him Superhuman Speed, he's gonna be DAMNED tired by the time he gets to the CS Soldier..if he manages to cover the distance at all......

[Killer Cyborg]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

Understood...

..but if you're the Magic-Using guy, and you only have Melee Weps and/or short-range Spells, remember tha you're covering a distance of 2000 feet or more before you can even get into range (a little under seven [!!] Football Fields long)...PLENTY of time for the CS guy to unload a clip or two into you; even worse, unless your Magic-Using guy had some sort of Spell in place that removes his fatigue or gives him Superhuman Speed, he's gonna be DAMNED tired by the time he gets to the CS Soldier..if he manages to cover the distance at all......

Unless you're in flatlands with no cover, 2000 feet is a long way to be shooting at somebody... over a third of a mile.
More likely, the combat would start at 1000' maximum.

In any case, with a deathbringer it wouldn't be a problem.
Activate the invulnerability, then either close the distance by running or cast a spell to move you in faster than that.

Without a deathbringer, the mage could use a talisman to turn invisible, or beef up his armor, or cast some other useful spell.
Or he could just shoot back with his own rifle (TW or tech).

[cornholioprime]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

Understood...

..but if you're the Magic-Using guy, and you only have Melee Weps and/or short-range Spells, remember tha you're covering a distance of 2000 feet or more before you can even get into range (a little under seven [!!] Football Fields long)...PLENTY of time for the CS guy to unload a clip or two into you; even worse, unless your Magic-Using guy had some sort of Spell in place that removes his fatigue or gives him Superhuman Speed, he's gonna be DAMNED tired by the time he gets to the CS Soldier..if he manages to cover the distance at all......

Unless you're in flatlands with no cover, 2000 feet is a long way to be shooting at somebody... over a third of a mile.
More likely, the combat would start at 1000' maximum.

In any case, with a deathbringer it wouldn't be a problem.
Activate the invulnerability, then either close the distance by running or cast a spell to move you in faster than that.

Without a deathbringer, the mage could use a talisman to turn invisible, or beef up his armor, or cast some other useful spell.
Or he could just shoot back with his own rifle (TW or tech).

A]] The TW Weps are woefully short on both Range AND Ammo; many of them have a range of about 300 to 800 feet, and what? 7-8 shots before needing another P.P.E. Boost??

B]] At about a kazillion Credits apiece, Deathbringers aren't exactly standard Issue, no???

As you said earlier, Magic is the king of Melee Combat.

But Melee Combat hasn't been king since man invented the Flintlock......

[Dr. Doom III]

Not really Doom, training revolves around killing people with your rifle, not running up and trying to stab them to death while being shot at. If you want close order combat training, spend a few years in a dojo cause the military aint gonna do it unless you go Special Forces. Even the Force Recon doesn't get a lot of close order combat though so yer still better off in a dojo, the training is better.

No it's still messed up.

[Toc Rat]

I think it was the Poster Toc Rat who said (paraphrasing), half-jokingly, that some Spells are specifically designed to "not work against Chi-Town." He might have been joking, but a some Spell Descriptions actually do look as if they were specifically designed with limitations to give Chi-Town an edge or even an invulnerability to said Spell.

I wasn't joking, that was a dead serious and factual statement. Pg.147, Book of Magic(and FoM before revising) Collapse Spell says: "M.D.C. Mega-Structure(i.e. Chi-Town):Impervious."

I use to think cornholioprime's sig was only half joking, a funny close to the truth statment. Now I know it is a 100% dead on accurate evaluation of the state of magic in Rifts. THere was no call for putting that specific limitation in. I can understand IF the limit had been something more like this: "Chi-Town being so large would require 3 or more applications of this spell cast at the same time to be affected." or even "Chi-Town is immune to the spell form os this incantation, only the ritual will work"

Either of those would have been acceptable. Instead we see more of the blatant protection KS gives the Coalition.

[Toc Rat]

Believe it or not, we don't (or at least we didn't when I was in; perhaps all of the House-to House fighting in Iraq will change that somewhat).

Our M-16s still do have Mounting Brackets where you can actually affix a Ka-Bar; but as to the Ka-Bar itself....gotta go buy your own.

That's messed up.

Yet True.

[Toc Rat]

Everyone remember my little satire series? I think I covered in in a good comparison of magic Vs tech. It's still posted on the forums for any to read. "Civililized exchange of views..."

[Toc Rat]

Everyone remember my little satire series? I think I covered in in a good comparison of magic Vs tech. It's still posted on the forums for any to read. "Civililized exchange of views..."

Great Thread!

Thanks!

[Toc Rat]

I'm working on the fifth at the moment. Just happy that people have liked them and want more

[Killer Cyborg]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

Understood...

..but if you're the Magic-Using guy, and you only have Melee Weps and/or short-range Spells, remember tha you're covering a distance of 2000 feet or more before you can even get into range (a little under seven [!!] Football Fields long)...PLENTY of time for the CS guy to unload a clip or two into you; even worse, unless your Magic-Using guy had some sort of Spell in place that removes his fatigue or gives him Superhuman Speed, he's gonna be DAMNED tired by the time he gets to the CS Soldier..if he manages to cover the distance at all......

Unless you're in flatlands with no cover, 2000 feet is a long way to be shooting at somebody... over a third of a mile.
More likely, the combat would start at 1000' maximum.

In any case, with a deathbringer it wouldn't be a problem.
Activate the invulnerability, then either close the distance by running or cast a spell to move you in faster than that.

Without a deathbringer, the mage could use a talisman to turn invisible, or beef up his armor, or cast some other useful spell.
Or he could just shoot back with his own rifle (TW or tech).

A]] The TW Weps are woefully short on both Range AND Ammo; many of them have a range of about 300 to 800 feet, and what? 7-8 shots before needing another P.P.E. Boost??

Which TW weapons are you talking aout?
Some of the pistols, sure... but there are plenty with decent range.
(Starfire Pistol, Firebutst Rifle, Eagle Eye Rifle, Force Cannon, Nova Rifle, Old Lightning Rifle, Storm Rifle, Super-Six Carbine, TK Rifle, Xiticix Rifle, etc.)
Not to mention TW converted energy weapons, where the range is exactly the same as the normal version.
And a lot of the weapons may not have as much ammo, but it's cheaper to reload them than to recharge an E-Clip... quicker too.
Unless you're using PPE-Clips, in which case it works just like normal E-Clips do.

B]] At about a kazillion Credits apiece, Deathbringers aren't exactly standard Issue, no???

No, they're not.
But a really rich mage/psychic can get one, where the richest man in the CS is STILL stuck with a vibro-sword as a weapon. Or, if he's strong enough, a Juicer Chainsaw... which is still vastly inferior.

As you said earlier, Magic is the king of Melee Combat.
But Melee Combat hasn't been king since man invented the Flintlock......

You're seriously telling me that melee never comes up in your games?

[RainOfSteel]

The only reason the the CS is "Anit-magic" IMO is because its just the Proseks capitilizing on human fears and memories. So they only "play" the anit-magic card.

The anti-magic card?

Ah, that brings back memories:

<flasback>

Turn 1: Black Lotus, Forest, Channel, Fireball, you lose!

</flashback>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

The anti-magic card?

Ah, that brings back memories:

<flasback>

Turn 1: Black Lotus, Forest, Channel, Fireball, you lose!

</flashback>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

If the CS was smart, they'd have been packing lots more Counterspells... you know, if Karl Prosek played I bet he'd be one of those U/W control freaks.

[Killer Cyborg]

The anti-magic card?

Ah, that brings back memories:

<flasback>

Turn 1: Black Lotus, Forest, Channel, Fireball, you lose!

</flashback>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

If the CS was smart, they'd have been packing lots more Counterspells... you know, if Karl Prosek played I bet he'd be one of those U/W control freaks.

The CS hate magic!!


They play Pokemon...

[cornholioprime]

In real life, you can use your gun to kill people before they get into melee range. This is why the Japanese Bonzai charges failed; they'd get gunned down before they got into bayonet range.

In Rifts, it just doesn't work like that most of the time. You have to shoot somebody quite a few times before they drop, and they often have plenty of time to close the distance and hack you up with their melee weapon.

And, of course, a character with a Deathbringer gets to be Invulnerable fo 8 melees if he wants to, which leaves plenty of time to close the distance and even get a number of attacks in.

Understood...

..but if you're the Magic-Using guy, and you only have Melee Weps and/or short-range Spells, remember tha you're covering a distance of 2000 feet or more before you can even get into range (a little under seven [!!] Football Fields long)...PLENTY of time for the CS guy to unload a clip or two into you; even worse, unless your Magic-Using guy had some sort of Spell in place that removes his fatigue or gives him Superhuman Speed, he's gonna be DAMNED tired by the time he gets to the CS Soldier..if he manages to cover the distance at all......

Unless you're in flatlands with no cover, 2000 feet is a long way to be shooting at somebody... over a third of a mile.
More likely, the combat would start at 1000' maximum.

In any case, with a deathbringer it wouldn't be a problem.
Activate the invulnerability, then either close the distance by running or cast a spell to move you in faster than that.

Without a deathbringer, the mage could use a talisman to turn invisible, or beef up his armor, or cast some other useful spell.
Or he could just shoot back with his own rifle (TW or tech).

A]] The TW Weps are woefully short on both Range AND Ammo; many of them have a range of about 300 to 800 feet, and what? 7-8 shots before needing another P.P.E. Boost??

Which TW weapons are you talking aout?
Some of the pistols, sure... but there are plenty with decent range.
(Starfire Pistol, Firebutst Rifle, Eagle Eye Rifle, Force Cannon, Nova Rifle, Old Lightning Rifle, Storm Rifle, Super-Six Carbine, TK Rifle, Xiticix Rifle, etc.)
Not to mention TW converted energy weapons, where the range is exactly the same as the normal version.
And a lot of the weapons may not have as much ammo, but it's cheaper to reload them than to recharge an E-Clip... quicker too.
Unless you're using PPE-Clips, in which case it works just like normal E-Clips do.

B]] At about a kazillion Credits apiece, Deathbringers aren't exactly standard Issue, no???

No, they're not.
But a really rich mage/psychic can get one, where the richest man in the CS is STILL stuck with a vibro-sword as a weapon. Or, if he's strong enough, a Juicer Chainsaw... which is still vastly inferior.

As you said earlier, Magic is the king of Melee Combat.
But Melee Combat hasn't been king since man invented the Flintlock......

You're seriously telling me that melee never comes up in your games?

Of COURSE I'm not telling you that.

It would seem that we are arguing on two different levels: In-Game Action and the Game Mechanics in general.

I'm arguing Game Mechanics in general; and how Kevin has hobbled magic in same.

In-game, my guess is that every one of you GMs in existence "artificially" puts Mages and CS Troops into combat situations where
A]] The Mage has cover so that he can start prepping Spells

and/or

B]] The Techie/Non-Mage Opponent in question is near or within range of either the Mage's Spells or his Fallback Weps.......

I really don't see Magic Combat in Rifts working well with Canon Rules otherwise...unless your Opponent is ALSO a Magic User....

[Killer Cyborg]

In-game, my guess is that every one of you GMs in existence "artificially" puts Mages and CS Troops into combat situations where
A]] The Mage has cover so that he can start prepping Spells

and/or

B]] The Techie/Non-Mage Opponent in question is near or within range of either the Mage's Spells or his Fallback Weps.......

I really don't see Magic Combat in Rifts working well with Canon Rules otherwise...unless your Opponent is ALSO a Magic User....

It all depends on circumstances.
Sometimes battle happens over a distance, sometimes it happens up close.
If you're in a forest, jungle, city, or other area where you don't have long range visibility, then combat will happen at pretty close range.
If you're in flatlands, or defending against aerial attacks, then you can see them coming from a long way away.

It's not a matter of mages vs. tech-warriors, it's a matter of realistic circumstance.

[Kagashi]

Magic is inferror to tech? Sure, when all you look at is how much damage you can deal and how much you can take. In a toe to toe fight, tech will win most of the time.

HOWEVER, I learned just how cool magic and the supernatutal really is on my first game of Rifts. Of course, I had played Robotech in the past, so I simply dropped my Veritech pilot into Rifts because I knew how tech worked and I did not want to learn magic.

My buddy played a hatchling dragon.

Needless to say, we ended up in our first engagment and we both were damaged about 100 MDC each. Well, the dragon's Armor of Ithan spell absorbed most of his damage (50 points) and he bio regenerated the rest fairly quickly, where as I was out 2 long ranged missiles, half my gun pod, and only 150 MDC left and no place to repair my specific technology. The next day, the dragons PPE was "reloaded" and his armor "repaired" for free. All he had to do was sleep...

How is that inferrior?

[Toc Rat]

Ah yes...the "Magic and supernatural guys can regenerate" argument. Here's the problem with that...You can only renegerate if you are ALIVE at the end of the fight.

Second, since that wasn't enough, KS introduced U and DU rounds in the NGR/Traix book way back in the day. Now supernaturals can't simply run away and regenerate.

Third, spellcasters have a very limited supply of PPE. Even if they are lucky enough to be fighting on a nexus point. So while yes, for a short time they can "replenish" their MDC armor of Ithan, they will quickly run out of PPE.

Forth, related to point three, while the mage is busy casting a spell to re-up his armor, he just used oneof his two magical actions that round. That means he may only take one more. Which he can either cast some sort of offensive spell or replenish his MDC yet again when it goes down later that same round because his Tech opponent just keeps pulling the trigger.

To summerize, magic will lose against tech in a head on fight. It's ability to "repair" MDC during the fight has too many drawbacks to be a deciding factor during the battle.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you know it wouldnt surprize me if the Coalition has anti-magic protection circles or symbols hidden in the walls of chi-town knowing Coalition once had a number of mages fighting for them at one time