Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Killer Cyborg]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

410 is when social and technological order began to swiftly decay in Rome. Most however consider 476 (The year Rome no longer had an emperor) to be the official beginning of the dark ages. Most say they lasted until 1000, which is when the Holy Roman Empire began to form out of Charlemanes empire. That would be about 500-600 years, or roughly twice what Doom asserted. I however do not consider the Dark Ages to have ended until the 1300's which saw the formations and entrenching of most major European nations, and stabilized the region in preparation for the Renaissance. 800-1300, while not as bad as 400-800, did not see any major technological achievement (although some great thinkers did live in this period).

There you go....

[Dr. Doom III]

Intent is irrelevant.

[Jesterzzn]

Intent is irrelevant.

So are platitudes.

[vitae_drinker]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

[RainOfSteel]

It's more of a politically correct evasion than an answer... like when a politician is asked about taxes and responds with "I'm a patriot and I love this country."
It's all very nice and everything, just irrelevent to the question.

Remember, don't answer the question you were asked.
Answer the question you wish you had been asked.

Since I like and respect RainOfSteel, I'd much rather just answer his question than evade it with irrelevent political correctness.

Oh no! Now I have to live up to a higher standard. <looks for a hiding place />

(And thank you, btw.)

[Killer Cyborg]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out.

Yes, which is why there aren't many game stats in the description section.
But that in now way means that what was said wasn't meant to be accurate.

Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

No, that's what he is saying with "Australia and the rest of the world" when he has Erin Tarn mention that she knows nothing about those areas.

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

I spent a bit over $300 on Palladium books at GenCon, but up until then I hadn't bought a book from them in years due to the decline in quality.
The books I bought, I got because
a) They looked good. Dinosaur Swamps, Merc Ops, and the Adventure Guide, for example.
b) I needed to update my knowledge of the game in order to properly argue about things here.
c) I bought RUE (Gold) because it is something that Palladium has needed for a number of years and something that I have been waiting for. I have always said that if Palladium started releasing quality books again, I'd be there. RUE shows that Kevin is once again taking a more direct hand in things than he has been, and he's at least attempting to make the system unified again. RUE clears away one heck of a lot of the problems that had cropped up in Rifts over the years (although it introduces a few new ones... that's only to be expected).

[Jesterzzn]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out.

Can you point to me one quote where Kevin actually says that?

[grandmaster z0b]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

410 is when social and technological order began to swiftly decay in Rome. Most however consider 476 (The year Rome no longer had an emperor) to be the official beginning of the dark ages. Most say they lasted until 1000, which is when the Holy Roman Empire began to form out of Charlemanes empire. That would be about 500-600 years, or roughly twice what Doom asserted. I however do not consider the Dark Ages to have ended until the 1300's which saw the formations and entrenching of most major European nations, and stabilized the region in preparation for the Renaissance. 800-1300, while not as bad as 400-800, did not see any major technological achievement (although some great thinkers did live in this period).

I agree with most of this, however I must make it clear that this is only in relation to Western Europe (France, England, Germany etc.) the Byzantine Empire, the Muslim Empires and the Chinese in the east were quite advanced at this stage and continued to develop and trade new technologies between them. The Renaissance rediscovered the wisdom of the Romans and the Greeks only because the classic texts of Plato, Aristitole, Homer, Socrates etc. were copied into Arabic by the Muslims and then re-translated later back into Latin.
I use this example to show how a few pockets of technology and culture can re-ignite other areas that have slipped into a dark age.

I think the re-discovery of technology is expentially hastened through educational tools. During the dark ages, the books they did have were copied by hand and it wasn't till the invention of the printing press that learning really took off. The cultures of Rifts earth didn't need to re-invent the printing press as much as re-learn how to use the computers and automated factories that survived. I imagine that there were computers everywhere in the Golden Age, and these computers would have an incredible storage capacity, even a home computer could contain encyclopaedias and complete texts of scientific data.
So I think 300 years is not such an unreasonable time frame for at least some of the population to recover a large amount of learning. Imagine the treasure trove of knowledge the founders of New Lazlo (I think?) discovered when they unearthed an old university. The LAN alone would contain enough information to educate generations of people.

[Jesterzzn]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

410 is when social and technological order began to swiftly decay in Rome. Most however consider 476 (The year Rome no longer had an emperor) to be the official beginning of the dark ages. Most say they lasted until 1000, which is when the Holy Roman Empire began to form out of Charlemanes empire. That would be about 500-600 years, or roughly twice what Doom asserted. I however do not consider the Dark Ages to have ended until the 1300's which saw the formations and entrenching of most major European nations, and stabilized the region in preparation for the Renaissance. 800-1300, while not as bad as 400-800, did not see any major technological achievement (although some great thinkers did live in this period).

I agree with most of this, however I must make it clear that this is only in relation to Western Europe (France, England, Germany etc.) the Byzantine Empire, the Muslim Empires and the Chinese in the east were quite advanced at this stage and continued to develop and trade new technologies between them. The Renaissance rediscovered the wisdom of the Romans and the Greeks only because the classic texts of Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Socrates etc. were copied into Arabic by the Muslims and then re-translated later back into Latin.
I use this example to show how a few pockets of technology and culture can re-ignite other areas that have slipped into a dark age.

I agree here with a couple exceptions. The Byzantine empire, you might say, was one of the direct factors in the beginning of the dark ages. Also, they never really advanced beyond what was already present in the time of Constantine. Probably due to constant invasion from Goths, Huns, and Kurds. But while they were certainly a stable nation, they were not a light in the darkness. You last point about the works of the Classical Greeks is a bit off as well. Greek was a very common language in the Byzantine, and even the Muslim, empires thanks to the influence of Alexander. The original greek was always preserved. While they were translated into arabic, this was done many centuries before the fall of Rome.

I think the re-discovery of technology is expentially hastened through educational tools. During the dark ages, the books they did have were copied by hand and it wasn't till the invention of the printing press that learning really took off. The cultures of Rifts earth didn't need to re-invent the printing press as much as re-learn how to use the computers and automated factories that survived. I imagine that there were computers everywhere in the Golden Age, and these computers would have an incredible storage capacity, even a home computer could contain encyclopaedias and complete texts of scientific data.
So I think 300 years is not such an unreasonable time frame for at least some of the population to recover a large amount of learning. Imagine the treasure trove of knowledge the founders of New Lazlo (I think?) discovered when they unearthed an old university. The LAN alone would contain enough information to educate generations of people.

For the purposes of Rifts I agree with this 100%

[Jesterzzn]

Intent is irrelevant.

So are platitudes.

Whats a platitude?


I didn't bother reading this entire thread... has anyone ever ASKED Kevin any of these questions?

*Persoanlly I find the X-mas bundle a good way to ask for stuff... Autographs from the Cleaning Crew for one... *

Barney

A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant.

[Richter]

I truly didn't wish to get in the middle of this, but I have to ask some very basic simple questions

1: Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape about this? KS is pointing out, regardless of his opinion of a worldbook, that most likely, Japan was not planned for Rifts. Hes backed it up with some facts. Is some of it conjecture? Yes, but hes saying it APPEARS this way, and his info is good. Whats the big deal?

2: Why are people thinking he hates Palladium books and is saying "screw japan" etc etc. Granted, he doesn't sound thrilled with the content of Rifts: Japan, but thats not really part of the discussion. Again, hes pointing out something interesting in the books he found. He formed an opinion on it, stated his reasons, pointed to the facts, and said "here ya go, whatcha think?" and its turned into all kinds of ridiculous disscussion.

Im just confused is all =p

[Killer Cyborg]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

410 is when social and technological order began to swiftly decay in Rome. Most however consider 476 (The year Rome no longer had an emperor) to be the official beginning of the dark ages. Most say they lasted until 1000, which is when the Holy Roman Empire began to form out of Charlemanes empire. That would be about 500-600 years, or roughly twice what Doom asserted. I however do not consider the Dark Ages to have ended until the 1300's which saw the formations and entrenching of most major European nations, and stabilized the region in preparation for the Renaissance. 800-1300, while not as bad as 400-800, did not see any major technological achievement (although some great thinkers did live in this period).

I agree with most of this, however I must make it clear that this is only in relation to Western Europe (France, England, Germany etc.) the Byzantine Empire, the Muslim Empires and the Chinese in the east were quite advanced at this stage and continued to develop and trade new technologies between them. The Renaissance rediscovered the wisdom of the Romans and the Greeks only because the classic texts of Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Socrates etc. were copied into Arabic by the Muslims and then re-translated later back into Latin.
I use this example to show how a few pockets of technology and culture can re-ignite other areas that have slipped into a dark age.

I agree here with a couple exceptions. The Byzantine empire, you might say, was one of the direct factors in the beginning of the dark ages. Also, they never really advanced beyond what was already present in the time of Constantine. Probably due to constant invasion from Goths, Huns, and Kurds. But while they were certainly a stable nation, they were not a light in the darkness. You last point about the works of the Classical Greeks is a bit off as well. Greek was a very common language in the Byzantine, and even the Muslim, empires thanks to the influence of Alexander. The original greek was always preserved. While they were translated into arabic, this was done many centuries before the fall of Rome.

I think the re-discovery of technology is expentially hastened through educational tools. During the dark ages, the books they did have were copied by hand and it wasn't till the invention of the printing press that learning really took off. The cultures of Rifts earth didn't need to re-invent the printing press as much as re-learn how to use the computers and automated factories that survived. I imagine that there were computers everywhere in the Golden Age, and these computers would have an incredible storage capacity, even a home computer could contain encyclopaedias and complete texts of scientific data.
So I think 300 years is not such an unreasonable time frame for at least some of the population to recover a large amount of learning. Imagine the treasure trove of knowledge the founders of New Lazlo (I think?) discovered when they unearthed an old university. The LAN alone would contain enough information to educate generations of people.

For the purposes of Rifts I agree with this 100%

It all comes down to who and what survived the apocalypse.
If a computer techie survives in an area with no electricity and he can't figure out how to generate any, the computers won't do him a bit of good.

I find it plausible for places like Chi-Town to exist, but they'd be the exception.

[Jesterzzn]

I truly didn't wish to get in the middle of this, but I have to ask some very basic simple questions

1: Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape about this? KS is pointing out, regardless of his opinion of a worldbook, that most likely, Japan was not planned for Rifts. Hes backed it up with some facts. Is some of it conjecture? Yes, but hes saying it APPEARS this way, and his info is good. Whats the big deal? It's fun to argue about stuff we have no power to influence.
2: Why are people thinking he hates Palladium books and is saying "screw japan" etc etc. Granted, he doesn't sound thrilled with the content of Rifts: Japan, but thats not really part of the discussion. Again, hes pointing out something interesting in the books he found. He formed an opinion on it, stated his reasons, pointed to the facts, and said "here ya go, whatcha think?" and its turned into all kinds of ridiculous disscussion. Only a couple posters have taken this position. Fanboi's are everywhere. Most of the posters here know KC is a pretty together guy, and not just bashing for bashings sake.
Im just confused is all =p

[Richter]

Hrrmmm the discussion just seems a bit more heated than it should be imo. People get mad over the silliest things I guess.

Ah well, thanks Jester

[grandmaster z0b]

I agree with most of this, however I must make it clear that this is only in relation to Western Europe (France, England, Germany etc.)...

History major?

No, just very well read (I've been a medieval re-enactor since I was a kid).

[grandmaster z0b]

I agree here with a couple exceptions. The Byzantine empire, you might say, was one of the direct factors in the beginning of the dark ages. Also, they never really advanced beyond what was already present in the time of Constantine. Probably due to constant invasion from Goths, Huns, and Kurds. But while they were certainly a stable nation, they were not a light in the darkness. You last point about the works of the Classical Greeks is a bit off as well. Greek was a very common language in the Byzantine, and even the Muslim, empires thanks to the influence of Alexander. The original greek was always preserved. While they were translated into arabic, this was done many centuries before the fall of Rome.

Well, I don't really agree with that, did you realise that the trading of technology between the Byzantines and the Muslims increased the knowledge of both? The concept that the Roman Empire was the pinacle of learning till the Renaissance is an old, euro-centric concept.
For example there are reports that the throne room of the Byzantine Emperor contained steam-powered and hydrolic automations of whistling birds and roaring lions, and his throne would raise hydrolically as people entered the room. Also Byzantium was the only place in Europe that could weave silk after a monk smuggled silk worms back from China.

As far as the Greek classics are concerned, I think most were lost after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, so the vast majority of these works were the arabic translations. I did a search and found a course at New York University that specifically covers this

Between 750 and 1000 AD, Muslim intellectuals engineered one of the most spectacular technology transfers in human history. Under caliphal patronage the greater part of Greek scientific and philosophical learning was translated from Greek into Arabic. Two centuries later this broad stream of Arab-Islamic learning returned to the West. Europe rediscovered its own Greek past in Arab garb and began re-translating texts into their own scientific vernacular, Latin. They discovered Islam as well.

[Jesterzzn]

I agree here with a couple exceptions. The Byzantine empire, you might say, was one of the direct factors in the beginning of the dark ages. Also, they never really advanced beyond what was already present in the time of Constantine. Probably due to constant invasion from Goths, Huns, and Kurds. But while they were certainly a stable nation, they were not a light in the darkness. You last point about the works of the Classical Greeks is a bit off as well. Greek was a very common language in the Byzantine, and even the Muslim, empires thanks to the influence of Alexander. The original greek was always preserved. While they were translated into arabic, this was done many centuries before the fall of Rome.

Well, I don't really agree with that, did you realise that the trading of technology between the Byzantines and the Muslims increased the knowledge of both? The concept that the Roman Empire was the pinacle of learning till the Renaissance is an old, euro-centric concept.
For example there are reports that the throne room of the Byzantine Emperor contained steam-powered and hydrolic automations of whistling birds and roaring lions, and his throne would raise hydrolically as people entered the room. Also Byzantium was the only place in Europe that could weave silk after a monk smuggled silk worms back from China.

As far as the Greek classics are concerned, I think most were lost after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, so the vast majority of these works were the arabic translations. I did a search and found a course at New York University that specifically covers this

Between 750 and 1000 AD, Muslim intellectuals engineered one of the most spectacular technology transfers in human history. Under caliphal patronage the greater part of Greek scientific and philosophical learning was translated from Greek into Arabic. Two centuries later this broad stream of Arab-Islamic learning returned to the West. Europe rediscovered its own Greek past in Arab garb and began re-translating texts into their own scientific vernacular, Latin. They discovered Islam as well.

If that sort of thing interests you, I recomend this book. It still does not change that the classics were never lost. The latin translations were not from arabic, but from greek. Much like the New Testament Bible's latin translation was from greek. The "rediscovery" that this person must be refering to is the influence of the greek works on aribic culture. In other words, they saw the influence of the Greeks in the works of the Arabs (most likely during the crusades), and thus "rediscovered' the classics for themselves.

[Killer Cyborg]

I truly didn't wish to get in the middle of this, but I have to ask some very basic simple questions

1: Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape about this? KS is pointing out, regardless of his opinion of a worldbook, that most likely, Japan was not planned for Rifts. Hes backed it up with some facts. Is some of it conjecture? Yes, but hes saying it APPEARS this way, and his info is good. Whats the big deal?

2: Why are people thinking he hates Palladium books and is saying "screw japan" etc etc. Granted, he doesn't sound thrilled with the content of Rifts: Japan, but thats not really part of the discussion. Again, hes pointing out something interesting in the books he found. He formed an opinion on it, stated his reasons, pointed to the facts, and said "here ya go, whatcha think?" and its turned into all kinds of ridiculous disscussion.

Im just confused is all =p

Thank you.

[grandmaster z0b]

Between 750 and 1000 AD, Muslim intellectuals engineered one of the most spectacular technology transfers in human history. Under caliphal patronage the greater part of Greek scientific and philosophical learning was translated from Greek into Arabic. Two centuries later this broad stream of Arab-Islamic learning returned to the West. Europe rediscovered its own Greek past in Arab garb and began re-translating texts into their own scientific vernacular, Latin.

It still does not change that the classics were never lost. The latin translations were not from arabic, but from greek. Much like the New Testament Bible's latin translation was from greek. The "rediscovery" that this person must be refering to is the influence of the greek works on aribic culture. In other words, they saw the influence of the Greeks in the works of the Arabs (most likely during the crusades), and thus "rediscovered' the classics for themselves.

Sorry, that's not at all what the person means.
My quick research of the web seems to indicate that we are in many ways both correct. Original Latin and Greek texts did survive but were damaged and very few, Arabic texts from Spain to Persia were more common and in many cases, especially mathematics and astronomy, Islamic scholars had made their own contributions and added new discoveries.
In any case we're drifting off thread, I don't think the academics agree at this stage either. Perhaps we could continue this debate in Sound Off?

[cornholioprime]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

That makes TWO of us.

There's simply no real way to extrapolate "nothing's there" from "quiet chain of wilderness Islands."

As stated before, "wilderness," as 'defined' in the Rifts Game Setting, encompasses everything from Bahia Island to the the Russian Steppe to the City Layout of the NGR...................

[The Beast]

How many of us would be able to survive and rebuild our society if it fell? The Romans didn't have to worry about gas, electricity, and other things we take for granted today. The majority of people then knew how to hunt, fish, and farm. How many of us could do the same? How many of us know how to build a car, or a power station? Does anyone here know how to drill for oil? Or mine metal out of the ground? Or prevent a nuclear plant from melting down?

I know how to hunt, fish, and farm. Does that count for anything?

It means you would probably last longer in the wild than most of us here.

Mech-Viper

when modern civilization falls its going to be hard, meanwhile in other parts of the world will be just like the day before

Killer Cyborg

It's like when Arthur Dent found himself stranded on a planet with a stone-age tribe. He figured that he could use his 20th century knowledge to help improve things and become their ruler... but then he realized that most of his knowledge was useless without modern tools.

This was my point, as well as KC's original point of this whole topic (I think). Realistically there shouldn't be as many technological centers as there seems to be on Rifts Earth.

[Dr. Doom III]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

That makes TWO of us.

There's simply no real way to extrapolate "nothing's there" from "quiet chain of wilderness Islands."

As stated before, "wilderness," as 'defined' in the Rifts Game Setting, encompasses everything from Bahia Island to the the Russian Steppe to the City Layout of the NGR...................

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
For instance, France can be assumed to be mostly wilderness (it is a part of the world), yet Tarn doesn't bring that up because it's something of a given.
Instead, she mentions ley lines, dozens of warring fuedal kingdoms, the technology level, and population estimates.
In Spain, which would also be mostly wilderness as a rule, she mentions nexus points and that the population and tech levels are about the same as France.
In "The Rest of Europe" she mentions once again that things are mostly wilderness (with the exceptions of small towns, villages, and outposts), and goes on to (again) note the places that are more than that (or less than that, in the case of Denmark).
In India, she mentions rumors of savage, cannibalistic D-Bees.
In Chin, she mentions demons and supernatural monsters, as well as the current human population.
In Egypt, she mentions the pyramids.
In South America she mentions pockets of civilization, and that Argentina has a handful of cities. She mentions that juicers, crazies, and 20th century technology is present.

In Japan, she only notes that it is "a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands." No mention of significant population. No mention of significant tech level. No mention of demon problems. No mention of anything of any significance.
Except, perhaps, for the word "quiet".... which implies that there's really nothing going on to speak of.

[Kalinda]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Yeah, you've got to realize that this was back in 1990. Pally only had a few games under it's collective belt and there was no guarantee that Rifts was going to be a success, let alone enough of one to spawn 40+ books. back then they would have considered it a roaring success if they had been able to publish 4 world books.

[vitae_drinker]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Yeah, what Doom said.

And, I believe I read that somewhere else, maybe in one of the old FAQ sections or an interview, or maybe even in the RUE Designer's Notes or an old Rifter, but I can't honestly remember where. I'll keep an eye out for it, though.

Also, if you must argue that whatever KS as Erin Tarn says should be the only view of the world, I direct you to RMB pg 137, second paragraph first column where, I quote, "Unfortunately, that is not saying much, as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world." This caveat covers the 'we don't know' and the 'this particular view has changed' equally well. So when Rifts was first written, it could be equally said with authority that KS had no plans for Japan beyond the empty wasteland of islands, to what the Japan book became. Who knows for sure? Kevin does, but he ain't talking.

Has the view of Rifts changed over the years? Yes, of course. I wouldn't try to claim otherwise, but I can understand where you might think I was. And I wasn't trying to get KC's goat, I was just curious as to why he felt the way he did.

So there.

[cornholioprime]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Yeah, what Doom said.

And, I believe I read that somewhere else, maybe in one of the old FAQ sections or an interview, or maybe even in the RUE Designer's Notes or an old Rifter, but I can't honestly remember where. I'll keep an eye out for it, though.

Also, if you must argue that whatever KS as Erin Tarn says should be the only view of the world, I direct you to RMB pg 137, second paragraph first column where, I quote, "Unfortunately, that is not saying much, as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world." This caveat covers the 'we don't know' and the 'this particular view has changed' equally well. So when Rifts was first written, it could be equally said with authority that KS had no plans for Japan beyond the empty wasteland of islands, to what the Japan book became. Who knows for sure? Kevin does, but he ain't talking.

Has the view of Rifts changed over the years? Yes, of course. I wouldn't try to claim otherwise, but I can understand where you might think I was. And I wasn't trying to get KC's goat, I was just curious as to why he felt the way he did.

So there.

Well said.

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

That makes TWO of us.

There's simply no real way to extrapolate "nothing's there" from "quiet chain of wilderness Islands."

As stated before, "wilderness," as 'defined' in the Rifts Game Setting, encompasses everything from Bahia Island to the the Russian Steppe to the City Layout of the NGR...................

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
For instance, France can be assumed to be mostly wilderness (it is a part of the world), yet Tarn doesn't bring that up because it's something of a given.
Instead, she mentions ley lines, dozens of warring fuedal kingdoms, the technology level, and population estimates.
In Spain, which would also be mostly wilderness as a rule, she mentions nexus points and that the population and tech levels are about the same as France.
In "The Rest of Europe" she mentions once again that things are mostly wilderness (with the exceptions of small towns, villages, and outposts), and goes on to (again) note the places that are more than that (or less than that, in the case of Denmark).
In India, she mentions rumors of savage, cannibalistic D-Bees.
In Chin, she mentions demons and supernatural monsters, as well as the current human population.
In Egypt, she mentions the pyramids.
In South America she mentions pockets of civilization, and that Argentina has a handful of cities. She mentions that juicers, crazies, and 20th century technology is present.

In Japan, she only notes that it is "a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands." No mention of significant population. No mention of significant tech level. No mention of demon problems. No mention of anything of any significance.
Except, perhaps, for the word "quiet".... which implies that there's really nothing going on to speak of.

i think , things on rifts earth rise and fall very quickly

[The Galactus Kid]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

[dark brandon]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

You make a valid argument.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

You make a valid argument.

wurd!!!!

[Sureshot]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

You make a valid argument.

In going to disagree on this. Saying "this is the background take it or leave it" is not a valid argument. Still what is done is done. They only way to redo Japan is to come out with a second edition. Which will not happen.

[dark brandon]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

You make a valid argument.

In going to disagree on this. Saying "this is the background take it or leave it" is not a valid argument. Still what is done is done. They only way to redo Japan is to come out with a second edition. Which will not happen.

whatever. It's canon. It's official. It's done. There will be no second edition.

On the bright side...corpse bride was a great movie!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

You make a valid argument.

In going to disagree on this. Saying "this is the background take it or leave it" is not a valid argument. Still what is done is done. They only way to redo Japan is to come out with a second edition. Which will not happen.

whatever. It's canon. It's official. It's done. There will be no second edition.

On the bright side...corpse bride was a great movie!

[RainOfSteel]

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Most enlightening.

Where would that discussion actually be located?

[RainOfSteel]

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
<snip of many examples />

Exactly. She clarifies when there is something else around. Obviously there wasn't in this case and they changed their minds later.

And also (bold font mine):

I will focus my records of history to the period just before the Time of the Rifts and the centuries of chaos which followed. I will try to separate fact from fantasy and indicate rumor, myth, and legend when facts are not available.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
<snip of many examples />

Exactly. She clarifies when there is something else around. Obviously there wasn't in this case and they changed their minds later.

And also (bold font mine):

I will focus my records of history to the period just before the Time of the Rifts and the centuries of chaos which followed. I will try to separate fact from fantasy and indicate rumor, myth, and legend when facts are not available.

Yep, exactly.

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

[RainOfSteel]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

what you need help or i need help?

[Zer0 Kay]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

He's saying Prosek is her first love

[RainOfSteel]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

what you need help or i need help?

That is one of the "confused" smileys.

I did not understand why you were asking that we give Erin Tarn a break due to her 70 years of age and hating the first love of her life due to the material in the quote blocks immediately above.

I should have said: "Can you please clarify what you mean?"

[RainOfSteel]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

He's saying Prosek is her first love

That isn't what I was saying, but it is an interesting theory. That Erin Tarn had a crush on Karl Prosek when she was young. Imagine the guilt she would feel if it were actually true!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

He's saying Prosek is her first love

That isn't what I was saying, but it is an interesting theory. That Erin Tarn had a crush on Karl Prosek when she was young. Imagine the guilt she would feel if it were actually true!

and why her words about proseks and coalition is harsher then against any other evil

[Zer0 Kay]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

That makes TWO of us.

There's simply no real way to extrapolate "nothing's there" from "quiet chain of wilderness Islands."

As stated before, "wilderness," as 'defined' in the Rifts Game Setting, encompasses everything from Bahia Island to the the Russian Steppe to the City Layout of the NGR...................

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
For instance, France can be assumed to be mostly wilderness (it is a part of the world), yet Tarn doesn't bring that up because it's something of a given.
Instead, she mentions ley lines, dozens of warring fuedal kingdoms, the technology level, and population estimates.
In Spain, which would also be mostly wilderness as a rule, she mentions nexus points and that the population and tech levels are about the same as France.
In "The Rest of Europe" she mentions once again that things are mostly wilderness (with the exceptions of small towns, villages, and outposts), and goes on to (again) note the places that are more than that (or less than that, in the case of Denmark).
In India, she mentions rumors of savage, cannibalistic D-Bees.
In Chin, she mentions demons and supernatural monsters, as well as the current human population.
In Egypt, she mentions the pyramids.
In South America she mentions pockets of civilization, and that Argentina has a handful of cities. She mentions that juicers, crazies, and 20th century technology is present.

In Japan, she only notes that it is "a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands." No mention of significant population. No mention of significant tech level. No mention of demon problems. No mention of anything of any significance.
Except, perhaps, for the word "quiet".... which implies that there's really nothing going on to speak of.

i think , things on rifts earth rise and fall very quickly

It's like a freaking level of Mario on the original Nintendo... quick where is that firball flower?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook. It was a rules guide. So anything included in it was just to get people playing right away before any extra world information book(s) came out. Frankly, I take the description of Japan as KS saying "Um, I'm not really sure whats there, so let's not really get into it."

You disagree, hey good for you, but the main thing I still don't get is why, if you disagree with the direction Palladium has gone, do you still buy Rifts releases?

That makes TWO of us.

There's simply no real way to extrapolate "nothing's there" from "quiet chain of wilderness Islands."

As stated before, "wilderness," as 'defined' in the Rifts Game Setting, encompasses everything from Bahia Island to the the Russian Steppe to the City Layout of the NGR...................

Yet when Erin Tarn describes other "wilderness" areas, she notes anything interesting in the area.
The complete lack of mentioning anything specific in Japan indicates that there was nothing worth mentioning.

She mentions that the entire world is "mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts" on p. 137, so every place that she covers is presumed to have wilderness except as noted.
For instance, France can be assumed to be mostly wilderness (it is a part of the world), yet Tarn doesn't bring that up because it's something of a given.
Instead, she mentions ley lines, dozens of warring fuedal kingdoms, the technology level, and population estimates.
In Spain, which would also be mostly wilderness as a rule, she mentions nexus points and that the population and tech levels are about the same as France.
In "The Rest of Europe" she mentions once again that things are mostly wilderness (with the exceptions of small towns, villages, and outposts), and goes on to (again) note the places that are more than that (or less than that, in the case of Denmark).
In India, she mentions rumors of savage, cannibalistic D-Bees.
In Chin, she mentions demons and supernatural monsters, as well as the current human population.
In Egypt, she mentions the pyramids.
In South America she mentions pockets of civilization, and that Argentina has a handful of cities. She mentions that juicers, crazies, and 20th century technology is present.

In Japan, she only notes that it is "a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands." No mention of significant population. No mention of significant tech level. No mention of demon problems. No mention of anything of any significance.
Except, perhaps, for the word "quiet".... which implies that there's really nothing going on to speak of.

i think , things on rifts earth rise and fall very quickly

It's like a freaking level of Mario on the original Nintendo... quick where is that firball flower?

or the magic mushroom

[The Beast]

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Most enlightening.

Where would that discussion actually be located?

In the SB1 book KS admits he thought he could cover the rest of the world in one book. He then realized he would need more than one book and said to look for

Atlantis, the New West, the Magic Zone, England, and other parts of the planet.

I remember reading a line like what Doom printed but I don't remember what page or book. It should be in the main book seeing as my info was in the first book released after the main book.

[Dr. Doom III]

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

Most enlightening.

Where would that discussion actually be located?

In the SB1 book KS admits he thought he could cover the rest of the world in one book. He then realized he would need more than one book and said to look for

Atlantis, the New West, the Magic Zone, England, and other parts of the planet.

I remember reading a line like what Doom printed but I don't remember what page or book. It should be in the main book seeing as my info was in the first book released after the main book.

Under the Atlantis section in the main book.
"Full details will be revealed in the Rifts World Book."

[Zer0 Kay]

well she is 70, cut the old lady a break, since she hates her first love of her life

He's saying Prosek is her first love

That isn't what I was saying, but it is an interesting theory. That Erin Tarn had a crush on Karl Prosek when she was young. Imagine the guilt she would feel if it were actually true!

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

[RainOfSteel]

Under the Atlantis section in the main book.
"Full details will be revealed in the Rifts World Book."

That line is certainly tucked into a corner.

[RainOfSteel]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

[Dr. Doom III]

Under the Atlantis section in the main book.
"Full details will be revealed in the Rifts World Book."

That line is certainly tucked into a corner.

Doom sees all, Doom knows all.