Alternative Ending to the Siege of Tolkeen:

[cornholioprime]

NO offense but the CS has always been vulnerable to an attack from Atlantis. It is just that Atlantis does not care about the CS other than using them as chow and slave stock.

Yup.

Just about EVERYBODY on the Planet is "vulnerable to attack from Atlantis."

Even now, while they're all at Full Strength.

[grandmaster z0b]

Why would ya want or need one? The siege of tolkeen ended fine...

Crazy magic lovers always trying to re-write history...

Barney

I'm anti-magic, but I wanted an ending with more.. uhm.. drama?

huh? You mean your actually anti-magic? Why would you care? Isn't it all an opportunity to play different roles?
I'm not trying to question your playing style, I'm just curious.

For me I love playing whether it's the gun loving merc, the patriotic CS soldier, peace loving d-bee or the fanatic Tolkeen mage.

[Braden Campbell]

Here's an alternate ending for ya...
__________________________________________

Robert Creed looks around the ruined remains of is kingdom. He puts a gun to his head, and pulls the trigger before he can be captured by CS troops.

Suddenly he wakes up to find it was all a dream and Erin Tarn is in his shower.

<blackout.>
_________________________________________

[Natalya]

Here's an alternate ending for ya...
__________________________________________

Robert Creed looks around the ruined remains of is kingdom. He puts a gun to his head, and pulls the trigger before he can be captured by CS troops.

Suddenly he wakes up to find it was all a dream and Erin Tarn is in his shower.

<blackout.>
_________________________________________

Oh, that is just so wrong!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Actually, can I borrow this idea for the campaign I'm about to start? I like this much better than the canon "An entire CS division WITH MECHANIZED SUPPORT comes from XITICIX TERRITORY after spending the majority of the war WANDERING AROUND and somehow surviving sharing space with MILLIONS OF BLOODTHIRSTY BUGS in order to cursh Tolkeen in a time of weakness."

A war of mutual annihiation makes much more sense.

i like that and you could do that, besides its not like they were push all the way into XITICIX TERRITORY, just the outskirts of it

[dark brandon]

109PA - The Siege of Tolkeen Fails

Despite the CS attempting to crush the magical nation of Tolkeen, their efforts are rebuffed but not without great loss to Tolkeen itself. After a long, protacted series of engagements the remnants of the great Coalition Army retreats back to within the safety of their territory. Tolkeen's forces don't persue as they have their hands full enough. Both groups have suffered tremendous losses, but Tolkeen's sitatuation is still dire.

The Emperor's troops and the battles have ravaged the countryside, leaving Tolkeen with nothing to harvest and piles of bodies to dispose of. Diseases are common throughout the region and the nation's coffers are almost depleted. While they held against the might of the Coalition, Tolkeen just might be buried under the weight of rebuilding.

Chi-Town isn't much better. Prosek is more shame-faced now then when Free Quebec ceded from the Empire. Public support for his rule is down but not to the point were people are demanding his abdication yet. The CS War Machine will need years to lick their wounds to get back up to full strength again and the CS are now vulnerable to attack from either the Xicticix, Federation of Magic, or even Atlantis.

It is a turbulent time, where the great powers of the continent have switched from overt warfare to small-scale engagements and subterfuge. Seemingly unrelated events can have far-reaching effects....


The prelude to the campaign I'm working on. The characters will be agents, either knowingly or otherwise, of one of the various powers (Archie3, is a possibility.. however the Xicticix won't be using agents obviously).. and by their successes of failures they'll influence the outcome. Will Tolkeen recover or fall? Will CS be locked in a struggle for existance against another agressor? So on.

What do ya'll think?

Some things you should concider. The people of CS will never ask that karl or joseph be removed from their dictatorship. They are more than just a political power, they are a nations hopes and dreams of a desperate people. Meaning, they can do no wrong. Also, don't underestimate the propaganda that is joseph. This guy could make a loss look good for CS.

Concider also, that CS will not simply "fall". A good portion of the credit system is based on cs credits. If they are on the verge of falling, their credits will become worthless, concider that in your campaign. Inflation sucks. "What do you mean to recharge an eclip will cost 4 million CS credits?"

Quebec nor will NGR see cs fall. Quebec doesn't like them. They don't have to, but they are the CS, a name that is feared throughout the world apperently. NGR wanted trade with them from the begining and mainly the "alliance with CS" wording to add to a pychological fear to it's enemies. Both nations have absolutly nothing to gain and everything to lose if CS falls.

Also concider that other than lazlo, CS is the only real threat to xinixtics. This may not seem like much, but lazlo is already out manned by the bugs, and nothing says lazlo can achieve such a feat as defeating all the bugs alone.

Concider archie doesn't want to see CS fall. It want to take control of CS. But would this be a good time for archie to implament his plan to take control over CS? He still has to deal with Atlantis and build up an army and other things, so will he spread himself so thin as to govern a whole new nation and try to take on the splugorth?

[RainOfSteel]

109PA - The Siege of Tolkeen Fails

[i]Despite the CS attempting to crush the magical nation of Tolkeen, their efforts are rebuffed but not without great loss to Tolkeen itself.

<snip of excellent prelude />

What do ya'll think?

I think that was pretty good!

In fact, it isn't too far away from how I have the SoT ending. These are the main elements I have so far.

1. The FQ still splits from the CS, feeling they have to "go it alone".
2. There is no "Sorcerer's Revenge".
3. The CS army in Xiticix territory gets eaten, only 2% escape.
4. The Rings of Elder are deployed to those who can use them. The spells of legend are used strategically to blunt the most serious CS offensives.
5. NG and MI help eliminate the CS eliminate the Naruni, but they also aid Tolkeen against CS conquest (there is little point in taking sides with a nation that is going to eliminate you and your government eventually because you are a threat as a power-block not controlled by the Coalition States). There is no NG/MI + CS alliance.
6. 1/2 of Tolkeen's leadership aren't a group of totally evil people, and Tolkeen resembles more the nation described in RMB, and not the one described in the SoT books.
7. Lazlo's official position is nuetrality, but unofficially several hundred of its most powerful magi and soliders temporarily serve in the Tolkeen army.
8. New Lazlo officially sends three combined arms companies to aid Tolkeen, defying Chi-Town to do anything about it.
9. The CS's field army (a fraction of its actual army, which in turn is much smaller than the CWC/SoT canon army) is ground down until it can advance no further over the course of PA 106/107.

I have it as a stalemate between the CS and Tolkeen.
Both sides suffer, but Tolkeen suffers the worst (as only the CS's field army is battered, but many of Tolkeen's villages and towns are destroyed).

Karl Prosek is determined to create a re-match, but Lonestar is attacked with almost daily hit and run raids by the Pecos Empire (who believed, correctly, that the CS's distraction to the north would make for a perfect looting opportunity), necessitating a redistribution of military forces to the south.

And like AdeptPaladin says, espionage and intrigue abound. Merc Town has arisen, and is a hotbed of spy activity.

[The Galactus Kid]

i have it as this:
1) I like the SOT as it is.
2) There may be some stuff that I don't agree with (jericho Holmes) but in a world where anything can happen...well...anything can happen.
3) Tolkeen got exploded. The CS are even more cocky making them a more maniacal enemy. Better luck next time. Roll up a new character. See you next week.

[RainOfSteel]

2) There may be some stuff that I don't agree with (jericho Holmes) but in a world where anything can happen...well...anything can happen.

The only justifiable "anything" I can think of is the whole army walked through a mist into another dimension, and back out again a while later into Rifts Earth once more, losing little or no one in the process.

Or, as happens at the end of The Stand, [spoiler]the Hand of God comes down and saves the day; which I always thought was quite pointless[/spoiler].

[The Galactus Kid]

thats only one way to look at it. There are other options, but the point is it happened.

[RainOfSteel]

thats only one way to look at it. There are other options, but the point is it happened.

And the second point is that I laugh myself silly every time I think about it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Here's an alternate ending for ya...
__________________________________________

Robert Creed looks around the ruined remains of is kingdom. He puts a gun to his head, and pulls the trigger before he can be captured by CS troops.

Suddenly he wakes up to find it was all a dream and Erin Tarn is in his shower.

<blackout.>
_________________________________________

I thought you said Robert Creed not J.R.

[Zer0 Kay]

i have it as this:
1) I like the SOT as it is.
2) There may be some stuff that I don't agree with (jericho Holmes) but in a world where anything can happen...well...anything can happen.
3) Tolkeen got exploded. The CS are even more cocky making them a more maniacal enemy. Better luck next time. Roll up a new character. See you next week.

The Emperor and little jojo get killed by the common cold (anything can happen!!)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I always thought Karl and Erin in a lovers embrace with lady prosek laying dearth at erin's feet was a nice way to end it.................................

[Zer0 Kay]

thats only one way to look at it. There are other options, but the point is it happened.

Only in your game and in canon... oh wait no one has to follow canon. It just there for reference and ideas. So you say it did happen and more people say it's stupid the way it did so it didn't.

[Toc Rat]

109PA - The Siege of Tolkeen Fails

Despite the CS attempting to crush the magical nation of Tolkeen, their efforts are rebuffed but not without great loss to Tolkeen itself. After a long, protacted series of engagements the remnants of the great Coalition Army retreats back to within the safety of their territory. Tolkeen's forces don't persue as they have their hands full enough. Both groups have suffered tremendous losses, but Tolkeen's sitatuation is still dire.

The Emperor's troops and the battles have ravaged the countryside, leaving Tolkeen with nothing to harvest and piles of bodies to dispose of. Diseases are common throughout the region and the nation's coffers are almost depleted. While they held against the might of the Coalition, Tolkeen just might be buried under the weight of rebuilding.

Chi-Town isn't much better. Prosek is more shame-faced now then when Free Quebec ceded from the Empire. Public support for his rule is down but not to the point were people are demanding his abdication yet. The CS War Machine will need years to lick their wounds to get back up to full strength again and the CS are now vulnerable to attack from either the Xicticix, Federation of Magic, or even Atlantis.

It is a turbulent time, where the great powers of the continent have switched from overt warfare to small-scale engagements and subterfuge. Seemingly unrelated events can have far-reaching effects....


The prelude to the campaign I'm working on. The characters will be agents, either knowingly or otherwise, of one of the various powers (Archie3, is a possibility.. however the Xicticix won't be using agents obviously).. and by their successes of failures they'll influence the outcome. Will Tolkeen recover or fall? Will CS be locked in a struggle for existance against another agressor? So on.

What do ya'll think?

Sounds good Lots of possibilties for the individual PCs to explore. In a big war situation it is often hard for the actions of a few to really be noticed and felt.

[Toc Rat]

Actually, can I borrow this idea for the campaign I'm about to start? I like this much better than the canon "An entire CS division WITH MECHANIZED SUPPORT comes from XITICIX TERRITORY after spending the majority of the war WANDERING AROUND and somehow surviving sharing space with MILLIONS OF BLOODTHIRSTY BUGS in order to cursh Tolkeen in a time of weakness."

A war of mutual annihiation makes much more sense.

Yah, most people have that same problem with the magical bug proof CS army division.

[Toc Rat]

In fact, it isn't too far away from how I have the SoT ending. These are the main elements I have so far.

1. The FQ still splits from the CS, feeling they have to "go it alone".
2. There is no "Sorcerer's Revenge".
3. The CS army in Xiticix territory gets eaten, only 2% escape.
4. The Rings of Elder are deployed to those who can use them. The spells of legend are used strategically to blunt the most serious CS offensives.
5. NG and MI help eliminate the CS eliminate the Naruni, but they also aid Tolkeen against CS conquest (there is little point in taking sides with a nation that is going to eliminate you and your government eventually because you are a threat as a power-block not controlled by the Coalition States). There is no NG/MI + CS alliance.
6. 1/2 of Tolkeen's leadership aren't a group of totally evil people, and Tolkeen resembles more the nation described in RMB, and not the one described in the SoT books.
7. Lazlo's official position is nuetrality, but unofficially several hundred of its most powerful magi and soliders temporarily serve in the Tolkeen army.
8. New Lazlo officially sends three combined armys companies to aid Tolkeen, defying Chi-Town to do anything about it.
9. The CS's field army (a fraction of its actual army, which in turn is much smaller than the CWC/SoT canon army) is ground down until it can advance no further over the course of PA 106/107.

I have it as a stalemate between the CS and Tolkeen.
Both sides suffer, but Tolkeen suffers the worst (as only the CS's field army is battered, but many of Tolkeen's villages and towns are destroyed).

Karl Prosek is determined to create a re-match, but Lonestar is attacked with almost daily hit and run raids by the Pecos Empire (who believed, correctly, that the CS's distraction to the north would make for a perfect looting opportunity), necessitating a redistribution of military forces to the south.

And like AdeptPaladin says, espionage and intrigue abound. Merc Town has arisen, and is a hotbed of spy activity.

Like your version too, particuarly #6. I have always said it made no sense and was a HUGE continuity issue that bascily over night with no foreshadowing at all, Tolkeen went from being second only to Lazlo in suger filled goodness to power mad, demon loving, evil empire.

[Braden Campbell]

I always thought Karl and Erin in a lovers embrace with lady prosek laying dearth at erin's feet was a nice way to end it.................................

Nice.

Very Wagner...

[Zer0 Kay]

In fact, it isn't too far away from how I have the SoT ending. These are the main elements I have so far.

1. The FQ still splits from the CS, feeling they have to "go it alone".
2. There is no "Sorcerer's Revenge".
3. The CS army in Xiticix territory gets eaten, only 2% escape.
4. The Rings of Elder are deployed to those who can use them. The spells of legend are used strategically to blunt the most serious CS offensives.
5. NG and MI help eliminate the CS eliminate the Naruni, but they also aid Tolkeen against CS conquest (there is little point in taking sides with a nation that is going to eliminate you and your government eventually because you are a threat as a power-block not controlled by the Coalition States). There is no NG/MI + CS alliance.
6. 1/2 of Tolkeen's leadership aren't a group of totally evil people, and Tolkeen resembles more the nation described in RMB, and not the one described in the SoT books.
7. Lazlo's official position is nuetrality, but unofficially several hundred of its most powerful magi and soliders temporarily serve in the Tolkeen army.
8. New Lazlo officially sends three combined armys companies to aid Tolkeen, defying Chi-Town to do anything about it.
9. The CS's field army (a fraction of its actual army, which in turn is much smaller than the CWC/SoT canon army) is ground down until it can advance no further over the course of PA 106/107.

I have it as a stalemate between the CS and Tolkeen.
Both sides suffer, but Tolkeen suffers the worst (as only the CS's field army is battered, but many of Tolkeen's villages and towns are destroyed).

Karl Prosek is determined to create a re-match, but Lonestar is attacked with almost daily hit and run raids by the Pecos Empire (who believed, correctly, that the CS's distraction to the north would make for a perfect looting opportunity), necessitating a redistribution of military forces to the south.

And like AdeptPaladin says, espionage and intrigue abound. Merc Town has arisen, and is a hotbed of spy activity.

Like your version too, particuarly #6. I have always said it made no sense and was a HUGE continuity issue that bascily over night with no foreshadowing at all, Tolkeen went from being second only to Lazlo in suger filled goodness to power mad, demon loving, evil empire.

One evil guy invited the council to dinner the council thinking better of it only allowed for half the council to go... there was a circle of alignment change under the carpet... here I'll do it to myself An even stupider scenario. Karl managed to get spies into Tolkeen who were then able to kidnap or assassinate loved ones of the counsil... those that were kidnaped were sentenced to execution in Chi-Town (what is the difference between execution and assassination, the audience?) causing the alignments of some of the council to change. (All done under the noses of thousands of psychics and mages. .

[Kalinda]

I always thought Karl and Erin in a lovers embrace with lady prosek laying dearth at erin's feet was a nice way to end it.................................

Or Prosk and Creed in a lover's embrace with Erin at Creeds feet.







What? Quit looking at me like that...

[dark brandon]

thats only one way to look at it. There are other options, but the point is it happened.

Only in your game and in canon... oh wait no one has to follow canon. It just there for reference and ideas. So you say it did happen and more people say it's stupid the way it did so it didn't.

I have no problem with what happend. The xinixtics are kevins creatures. If he says they don't attack for whatever reason...then they don't. If they end up wearing pink dresses and carry around mini-guns with streamers...well...then...I guess so be it.

the thing about canon is that every book that comes out afterwords is written with that the last books in mind. By not following canon, your basically rewriting every book that comes out afterwords. It's all you however you choose, though, that's a lot of work to put in for not being able to look past one little incedent.

[MethosDarkblade]

Tolkeen is dead. Let it rest in peace.

Viva la Reisistance

Viva La Tolkeen!

[cornholioprime]

Yer but how many what the refers to?

The whole "JR Ewing/Shower Thing" from the TV Show "Dallas...."

Most recently parodied in "Family Guy..."

...with two of the original Show's Actors.......

[cornholioprime]

109PA - The Siege of Tolkeen Fails

[i]Despite the CS attempting to crush the magical nation of Tolkeen, their efforts are rebuffed but not without great loss to Tolkeen itself.

<snip of excellent prelude />

What do ya'll think?

I think that was pretty good!

In fact, it isn't too far away from how I have the SoT ending. These are the main elements I have so far.

1. The FQ still splits from the CS, feeling they have to "go it alone".
2. There is no "Sorcerer's Revenge".
3. The CS army in Xiticix territory gets eaten, only 2% escape.
4. The Rings of Elder are deployed to those who can use them. The spells of legend are used strategically to blunt the most serious CS offensives.
5. NG and MI help eliminate the CS eliminate the Naruni, but they also aid Tolkeen against CS conquest (there is little point in taking sides with a nation that is going to eliminate you and your government eventually because you are a threat as a power-block not controlled by the Coalition States). There is no NG/MI + CS alliance.
6. 1/2 of Tolkeen's leadership aren't a group of totally evil people, and Tolkeen resembles more the nation described in RMB, and not the one described in the SoT books.
7. Lazlo's official position is nuetrality, but unofficially several hundred of its most powerful magi and soliders temporarily serve in the Tolkeen army.
8. New Lazlo officially sends three combined armys companies to aid Tolkeen, defying Chi-Town to do anything about it.
9. The CS's field army (a fraction of its actual army, which in turn is much smaller than the CWC/SoT canon army) is ground down until it can advance no further over the course of PA 106/107.

I have it as a stalemate between the CS and Tolkeen.
Both sides suffer, but Tolkeen suffers the worst (as only the CS's field army is battered, but many of Tolkeen's villages and towns are destroyed).

Karl Prosek is determined to create a re-match, but Lonestar is attacked with almost daily hit and run raids by the Pecos Empire (who believed, correctly, that the CS's distraction to the north would make for a perfect looting opportunity), necessitating a redistribution of military forces to the south.

And like AdeptPaladin says, espionage and intrigue abound. Merc Town has arisen, and is a hotbed of spy activity.

Not bad.

And a trifle more "realistic" than the original, I'll wager......

[Toc Rat]

The never ending SOT deabte/argument/flame war...even after years of going over everything that happened in those books we are still talking about them.

I can't think of any other book (s) Palladium has writen that has generated so much intense "debate". I wonder just how much emails/letters they have recieved about those books over the years? From either camp?

[grandmaster z0b]

I don't mind the corruption of Tolkeen, but would have liked to see some more reasons behind it and an effective political opposition to the summoning of demons etc.

If King Creed was driven a little loony by the pressure of the CS on his doorstep, good, that is interesting and realistic. However what I don't buy is that seemingly everybody else in a democratic society just followed him and allowed the summoning of demons and the practice of dark magic to be performed inside their city without protesting or questioning their leaders.

I would have also liked to see the CS act smarter, why did they onlt try to bomb the place once? They never thought to try again at a different time or different place.

[dark brandon]

109PA - The Siege of Tolkeen Fails

[i]Despite the CS attempting to crush the magical nation of Tolkeen, their efforts are rebuffed but not without great loss to Tolkeen itself.

<snip of excellent prelude />

What do ya'll think?

I think that was pretty good!

In fact, it isn't too far away from how I have the SoT ending. These are the main elements I have so far.

1. The FQ still splits from the CS, feeling they have to "go it alone".
2. There is no "Sorcerer's Revenge".
3. The CS army in Xiticix territory gets eaten, only 2% escape.
4. The Rings of Elder are deployed to those who can use them. The spells of legend are used strategically to blunt the most serious CS offensives.
5. NG and MI help eliminate the CS eliminate the Naruni, but they also aid Tolkeen against CS conquest (there is little point in taking sides with a nation that is going to eliminate you and your government eventually because you are a threat as a power-block not controlled by the Coalition States). There is no NG/MI + CS alliance.
6. 1/2 of Tolkeen's leadership aren't a group of totally evil people, and Tolkeen resembles more the nation described in RMB, and not the one described in the SoT books.
7. Lazlo's official position is nuetrality, but unofficially several hundred of its most powerful magi and soliders temporarily serve in the Tolkeen army.
8. New Lazlo officially sends three combined armys companies to aid Tolkeen, defying Chi-Town to do anything about it.
9. The CS's field army (a fraction of its actual army, which in turn is much smaller than the CWC/SoT canon army) is ground down until it can advance no further over the course of PA 106/107.

I have it as a stalemate between the CS and Tolkeen.
Both sides suffer, but Tolkeen suffers the worst (as only the CS's field army is battered, but many of Tolkeen's villages and towns are destroyed).

Karl Prosek is determined to create a re-match, but Lonestar is attacked with almost daily hit and run raids by the Pecos Empire (who believed, correctly, that the CS's distraction to the north would make for a perfect looting opportunity), necessitating a redistribution of military forces to the south.

And like AdeptPaladin says, espionage and intrigue abound. Merc Town has arisen, and is a hotbed of spy activity.

Not bad.

And a trifle more "realistic" than the original, I'll wager......

what are you talking about? No offence, but it sounds like rainofsteel is still playing CS like mindless zombies. It's no better than the original senario except for the fact that it favors Tolkeen.

Problems right off the bat:

1) Rings of elders/spells of legend: Having these out in the battlefield is a problem, as now they can be taken by the enemies. So, with so much power in these little rings, wouldn't CS put a good deal of resources into taking these rings out of the war? surly you think that CS can snag a couple of rings that are being used in a battlefield, especially if they focus their efforts on it. If the rings are deployed to use against cs, then CS will obtain them. Also spells of legend are rare, and not every first level mage is gonna have them. You might have one mage in every what...couple thousand who know it, meaning once again, CS will focus it's efforts to kill the mages who are casting them, and since generally you need powerful mages to cast these spells of legend, CS dogboys psi-stalkers would know who to focus on.

Soldier 1: "So, which one is the mage that is making it rain spikes?"

Soldier 2: "We don't know...but we think it's that one over there loaded down with talismens"

2) Lazlo sending hundreds of it's most powerful mages and soldiers. Well, this would be a perfect time for Quebec to attack, this would be the opportunity they have been waiting for to take lazlo out of the picture. WIth lazlo and new lazlo weakend, quebec would dominate the north. This would be the best time for CS to make a peace treaty with Quebec. CS will recognize Quebecs independence, and in return, Quebec will use it's force that is already ready for war, and move them to attack lazlo. All this started because New lazlo got cocky and sent 3 companies to tolkee. New lazlo dared CS to do something about it, well, they did. Enjoy speaking french New lazlo. The army that was gonna face quebec is pulled out and sent in a pincer attack to hit lazlo and new lazlo from the south while Quebec attack and pushes from the north and east.

3) With CS granting independence to quebec, NG/MI would feel a little safer and possibly aid CS and cut it's aid to Tolkeen more than was suggested. If anything, with the war on lazlo and quebec, they realize that if they don't eventually take sides they will be branded as an enemie of man and since the two largest nations are on a war rampage, they may think it best to rethink their involvement.

4) no concideration on how Dr. Bradford would take these attacks to Lonestar. If they were attacking on a daily basis, how would he handle it. He's an evil megolomaniac and would probably become very vengful if his works are disrupted. Can we not think of anything bradford would do to stop the attacks? I can think of a few.

So, how would all this end? Who knows really. NA, at least the eastern part would be war torn. Perhaps Tolkeen and new lazlo are pounded into the ground, CS is hurt, so is quebec. Because Laslo is loved by kevin, it too probably still stands, but is also war-torn. So, the only real winners would be Xinixtics, because the only two nations that really could stop them, CS and lazlo, are too weak to do anything about it. In the end, Xinixtics would cover NA and we'd have "Xinixtics vs. Vampires" worldbook. I hear the art is RAD! My vote is for the xinixtics to win though.

[Toc Rat]

what are you talking about? No offence, but it sounds like rainofsteel is still playing CS like mindless zombies. It's no better than the original senario except for the fact that it favors Tolkeen.

Problems right off the bat:

1) Rings of elders/spells of legend: Having these out in the battlefield is a problem, as now they can be taken by the enemies. So, with so much power in these little rings, wouldn't CS put a good deal of resources into taking these rings out of the war? surly you think that CS can snag a couple of rings that are being used in a battlefield, especially if they focus their efforts on it. If the rings are deployed to use against cs, then CS will obtain them. Also spells of legend are rare, and not every first level mage is gonna have them. You might have one mage in every what...couple thousand who know it, meaning once again, CS will focus it's efforts to kill the mages who are casting them, and since generally you need powerful mages to cast these spells of legend, CS dogboys psi-stalkers would know who to focus on.

Soldier 1: "So, which one is the mage that is making it rain spikes?"

Soldier 2: "We don't know...but we think it's that one over there loaded down with talismens"

2) Lazlo sending hundreds of it's most powerful mages and soldiers. Well, this would be a perfect time for Quebec to attack, this would be the opportunity they have been waiting for to take lazlo out of the picture. WIth lazlo and new lazlo weakend, quebec would dominate the north. This would be the best time for CS to make a peace treaty with Quebec. CS will recognize Quebecs independence, and in return, Quebec will use it's force that is already ready for war, and move them to attack lazlo. All this started because New lazlo got cocky and sent 3 companies to tolkee. New lazlo dared CS to do something about it, well, they did. Enjoy speaking french New lazlo. The army that was gonna face quebec is pulled out and sent in a pincer attack to hit lazlo and new lazlo from the south while Quebec attack and pushes from the north and east.

So you still believe that FQ is justing waiting for the "right moment" to attack Lazlo eh? That's the problem with your version, it hinges on FQ launching a war of agression against Lazlo.

We already had this discussion, historicaly (with cannon evidence, backed up by page numbers) FQ has never launched an attack. They have always perfered to fight defensivly. Why go looking for trouble when enough comes to your door? Better to utterly annihilate an invading army on your home turf then risk the loss of your army by sending it in to unknown hostile territory. Not only is it more draining logisticaly but it could also be a trap.

FQ is far, far too paranoid about all the nasty "things" out there and so they would never launch an attack if for no other reason then fear it was a trick to lure their army out where it could be destroyed, prior to an invasion.

Of course since we didn't see eye to eye on this subject in the past (who'd have thought?), it's unlikely that will change now. I just thought I would remind you that you assumption FQ would switch to an offensive mode is not an "automatic" given. There are other view points on the matter.

[RainOfSteel]

what are you talking about? No offence, but it sounds like rainofsteel is still playing CS like mindless zombies. It's no better than the original senario except for the fact that it favors Tolkeen.

In what way does "Tolkeen suffered the worst" favor Tolkeen?

Problems right off the bat:

1) Rings of elders/spells of legend: Having these out in the battlefield is a problem, as now they can be taken by the enemies.

I never said they were directly on the battlefield. I said they were in the hands of people who could use them.

So, with so much power in these little rings, wouldn't CS put a good deal of resources into taking these rings out of the war?

They tried, but did not succeed. In any event, I didn't cover the history of what happened to the Rings during SoT.

surly you think that CS can snag a couple of rings that are being used in a battlefield, especially if they focus their efforts on it. If the rings are deployed to use against cs, then CS will obtain them. Also spells of legend are rare, and not every first level mage is gonna have them.

And yet, Tolkeen does have a book of them, so anyone the Circle of Twelve wanted to have know them, knew them. I never said anything about 1st lvl magi knowing them, nothing at all. It would have been the high level "most trustworthy" magi.

Soldier 1: "So, which one is the mage that is making it rain spikes?"

Soldier 2: "We don't know...but we think it's that one over there loaded down with talismens"

I didn't say magi were casting the spells of legend.

You can cast scrolls with spells of legend of them . . . SoT makes it clear that lots of these scrolls were available.

2) Lazlo sending hundreds of it's most powerful mages and soldiers. Well, this would be a perfect time for Quebec to attack,

Lazlo didn't "send them", they went on their own. FQ didn't know for sure until it was too late.

3) With CS granting independence to quebec,

The CS did not grant them independence. They're over 1000 miles away, and there is nothing the CS can do about it.

[dark brandon]

So you still believe that FQ is justing waiting for the "right moment" to attack Lazlo eh? That's the problem with your version, it hinges on FQ launching a war of agression against Lazlo.

Yep. I firmly believe that if lazlo showed any sign of weakness, enough that FQ feels it could take it on, FQ would attack, and that passage in the main book and RUE are the reason I think so. Just because a nation has never shown signs of being agressive doesn't mean they wouldn't.

In what way does "Tolkeen suffered the worst" favor Tolkeen?

It favors them in that they were actually able to stand up to CS, when from book one it was pretty clear they had no chance. If favors them cause it leave them standing.

There are many reasons tolkeen HAD to fall. For starters, it had to fall cause CS are the badguys. If they were able to hold up a fight and keep CS at bay, CS wouldn't be as imposing a nation as it is. Tolkeen was a nothing little city-state, written from the get-go to be CS's ..... You had an entire book based around the CS war machine. Would have been ultra lame to have it gone. By weakening CS so much, you leave it open to attacks from FoM, at least much more hardcore attacks. CS is so huge that it falling down would have changed the way NA is much differently. From credits to even things such as security for the smaller kingdoms that are a part of it. Tolkeen on the other hand was usually just a small blurb in a few books. It wasn't even mapped out until it's destruction.

Here's a question I just thought of. Why should, do you (the reader) think Tolkeen should have been left standing, won the war, brought it to a draw as opposed to being obliterated?

Is it because it is a magic state, and you think overwhelmingly that magic should trump tech? Is it because CS are the badguys and the badguy should never win? Is it because they are the aggressor and the aggressor in anything should never win? Is it because of the tactics CS used?

At least with the last one it'd be easier to just rewrite the tactics CS used as opposed to changing the entire outcome of the war.

They tried, but did not succeed. In any event, I didn't cover the history of what happened to the Rings during SoT.

True, but would they have tried harder if the rings were a more "visible" force on the battlefield?

And yet, Tolkeen does have a book of them, so anyone the Circle of Twelve wanted to have know them, knew them. I never said anything about 1st lvl magi knowing them, nothing at all. It would have been the high level "most trustworthy" magi.

And what would be concidered high? Or trustworthy? Or for that matter what would keep a good mage today from turning evil tomarrow now that he has a super-rare spell of legend. I agree, any one of the 12 could have learned them, but I dont' think spells of legend were gonna be as perdominant on the field, at least that's hwo I'm taking it your saying it. Almost as if every platoon of Tolkeen soldiers one would have a spell of legend.

You can cast scrolls with spells of legend of them . . . SoT makes it clear that lots of these scrolls were available.

I didn't get that from SoT. I still got that mages were still pretty stingy with their spells, so you may have had a few spells of legend, but I in no way think that it would be anywher close to "alot"

Lazlo didn't "send them", they went on their own. FQ didn't know for sure until it was too late.

So your saying FQ spies arn't any good?

The CS did not grant them independence. They're over 1000 miles away, and there is nothing the CS can do about it.

Had CS not acted hastily, they could have done something about it. But they made a stupid mistake. Regardless, it looks better for CS to say they "granted" Quebec it's freedom, this saves face, and still allows the two nations to be friendly.

[Toc Rat]

So you still believe that FQ is justing waiting for the "right moment" to attack Lazlo eh? That's the problem with your version, it hinges on FQ launching a war of agression against Lazlo.

Yep. I firmly believe that if lazlo showed any sign of weakness, enough that FQ feels it could take it on, FQ would attack, and that passage in the main book and RUE are the reason I think so. Just because a nation has never shown signs of being agressive doesn't mean they wouldn't.

[quote]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

[The Galactus Kid]

Dark Brandon brings up some really good points.

...BUT the SoT series will never be fully accepte by everyone, and I accept this. Yet again, to each his own.

[dark brandon]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

No, they arn't meaningless. But as per Palladium rules, when you have 2 things that contradict each other, use the most resent ruling

[Toc Rat]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

No, they arn't meaningless. But as per Palladium rules, when you have 2 things that contradict each other, use the most resent ruling

So when the RMB came out and Erin Tarn made it sound like FQ was interested in attacking Lazlo, that was true. Then when FQ came out and the writer told us from his omnicient point of view that NO, FQ has no plans to attack Lazlo, that was true. Then when Aftermath came out and said the same thing, that was still true. Now we have RUE and once again, from Erin Tarn's view, NOT the factual, none biased words of the writer explaining how it is, now you expect the words of Erin Tarn to be accepted as unquestionable truth? Is that what you are saying?

I'm sorry but I fail to see your logic in this. The RUE is mearly an updated version of the RMB. The information given to us in Aftermath and FQ (as well as the other world/source books) is far more complete and accurate, seeing as how they are not soley based on the words of a single NPC. That being the case it is only logical to use the FQ and Aftermath books over the RMB of RUE when dealing with the particulars in the matter on discussion.

Don't get me wrong, Erin Tarn is a useful plot device and often has the correct information but is only a NPC and has been wrong in the past and no doubt will be again.

Or perhaps this is just another example of Palladium's failure to follow it's on continuity? Say X in one book, then Y in the following book, then back to X in the next before printing a forth book that says -Z!

[dark brandon]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

No, they arn't meaningless. But as per Palladium rules, when you have 2 things that contradict each other, use the most resent ruling

So when the RMB came out and Erin Tarn made it sound like FQ was interested in attacking Lazlo, that was true. Then when FQ came out and the writer told us from his omnicient point of view that NO, FQ has no plans to attack Lazlo, that was true. Then when Aftermath came out and said the same thing, that was still true. Now we have RUE and once again, from Erin Tarn's view, NOT the factual, none biased words of the writer explaining how it is, now you expect the words of Erin Tarn to be accepted as unquestionable truth? Is that what you are saying?

I'm sorry but I fail to see your logic in this. The RUE is mearly an updated version of the RMB. The information given to us in Aftermath and FQ (as well as the other world/source books) is far more complete and accurate, seeing as how they are not soley based on the words of a single NPC. That being the case it is only logical to use the FQ and Aftermath books over the RMB of RUE when dealing with the particulars in the matter on discussion.

Don't get me wrong, Erin Tarn is a useful plot device and often has the correct information but is only a NPC and has been wrong in the past and no doubt will be again.

Or perhaps this is just another example of Palladium's failure to follow it's on continuity? Say X in one book, then Y in the following book, then back to X in the next before printing a forth book that says -Z!

No, but the reason given as to why quebec has no interest in attacking Lazlo is because they lack the power. They were content with not attacking because they have little choice. Lazlo has not shown to be any type of threat (in fact they are a peaceful nation), and they don't have the power to take lazlo so, it's a stalemate.

But it was never stated that if Quebec had the resources or power they wouldn't attack. That's where I get the stuff from the RUE book and the RMB.

Now, if lazlo showed signs of aggression (Such as for example attacking CS) or signs of weakness (Having many of it's powerful beings go and help tolkeen) I think would be enough to justify quebec to attack Lazlo.

[RainOfSteel]

In what way does "Tolkeen suffered the worst" favor Tolkeen?

It favors them in that they were actually able to stand up to CS, when from book one it was pretty clear they had no chance.

In what way was it "clear they had no chance?"

I have stated it many times.

Chi-Town's effective population is only 2.5 times that of Tolkeen.

They have a far greater territory and frontier that must be defended than Tolkeen does. Chi-Town cannot take its entire army to war.

With only 5 million effectives to draw upon, there is no way this side of little green potatoes that the Chi-Town can mount a field army of 1,000,000. Forget it. It ain't gonna happen outside of dreamy la la land.

If Chi-Town arms 2.5% of its population, that's 125,000 troops. And you can probably tack on 20-50k dogboys. This is a force that the Chi-Town can actually afford to arm and equip. Were talking maybe 2,000 SAMAS, 2,000 other mecha, and maybe a dozen Death's Heads all told. This is still pushing the limits by a lot.
Now, you cannot possibly hope to take all of them to Tolkeen, maybe 20,000 troops or so as a field army, with maybe 10k dogboys (all the rest would be required to defend an enormous frontier against other enemies). Add 10k or so mercenaries hired on whatever sort of financial skullduggery (like "war bonds"; that CS citizens couldn't possibly afford) you want to stipulate to, and maybe a 2-5k Iron Heart expeditionary force and (only if FQ doesn't withdraw from the CS), 5-10k from FQ (where 5k and 10k are the exceptionally high figures in both cases). Oh, and toss in maybe 10-20k skelebots (although their expense makes that a big stretch of the imagination).

Tolkeen's population is 2,000,000, and they are fighting for their very survival. I think with their spells of legend and their smaller army*, they can blunt a force of 47-55k, yes I do.

* Tolkeen's army would be about 1.5% (smaller budget for the army) of the population. Or about 30,000 grand total. Add in about 5k from mercenaries (Tolkeen damages itself economically to hire them), about 2-5k volunteers from within the population, about 1-2k volunteers from outside the population who hate Chi-Town, 2k from NG, 2k from MI, And another 300 from Lazlo (very high quality) and 700 from New Lazlo. No demons of any type would be recruited by any means. That is 43-47k total troops. Most of which, 35k or more, would be placed directly on the southern frontier. Oh, and the Ancient, Adult, and Hatchling Dragons of Freehold, let's not forget about them. They plus the spells of legend, and the fact that it is easier to defend that attack (Tolkeen's forces will most often be under cover), and I think it would be a grinding war of losses for Chi-Town's forces.

Chi-Town loses 5k when Jericho Holmes idiotically leads his forces into a meat grinder inside the Xiticix Hivelands.

About 1/2 way through the war, Chi-Town scrapes the bottom of the barrel of their manpower and forces posted in other locations, and adds another 20k to the front lines. They push Tolkeen's forces back to the city itself, where the Circle of Twelve unleash massive waves of their spells of legend (aided by the Rings of Elder and having three nexi each member can draw upon).

Chi-Town's forces lay siege to the city for a week, but are unable to gain entry. Battered and effectively out of supply due to massive hit and run tactics against their supply lines, Chi-Town's army is forced to retreat.

The war is over. Chi-Town has lost 30-40k troops, but no civilian infrastructure (ok, maybe some is lost to covert strikes by Tolkeen, but nothing serious). Tolkeen loses 20k troops, many are irreplaceable magi; and their entire southern territory is a wasteland of destruction.

Note: Actually, all these numbers are probably too large given the actual economic forces available.

If favors them cause it leave them standing.

This belief is the result of a presupposition that Tolkeen must fall. In a more accurate and balanced view of the true forces and economies available, I think their fall is not certain.

There are many reasons tolkeen HAD to fall.

I disagree.

For starters, it had to fall cause CS are the badguys.

I do not view that as a valid point.

If they were able to hold up a fight and keep CS at bay, CS wouldn't be as imposing a nation as it is.

Oops. I don't feel sorry about that one at all.

Tolkeen was a nothing little city-state, written from the get-go to be CS's .....

RMB p.139 is of two minds on this. It says Tolkeen is really big and bad, and ET says she's afraid it will fall anyway. She doesn't say she knows this, she says she is afraid for it.

I prefer to say that ET was better suited to comment on its industry and magical power, but less suited to comment on its military fate.

You had an entire book based around the CS war machine.

Containing numerous statements that are quite difficult to impossible to believe. Especially the figures regarding the numbers of troops and skelebots. Those figures are far, far, too high.

Would have been ultra lame to have it gone.

The whole book? Hmmm, if I had my choice, I would almost rather delete it.

As it stands, reducing the numbers of troops and machines is the best I can come up with. I reduced their numbers substantially.

By weakening CS so much, you leave it open to attacks from FoM,

Yes, that is a problem . . . for Chi-Town, and one they brought upon themselves. I find it difficult to care about their stupidity.

Here's a question I just thought of. Why should, do you (the reader) think Tolkeen should have been left standing, won the war, brought it to a draw as opposed to being obliterated?

The numbers. Hard, uncaring numbers.

Chi-Town: 5 million effective pop (leaving out the effectively useless 'Burbs), and a giant frontier, internal problems (like the St. Louis Gate and the 'Burbs themselves), and other enemies on other fronts (especially the need to help defend Missouri and Lone Star), and fighting outside of their territory in a environment where long distance supply is very difficult.

Tolkeen: 2 million effective pop. Smaller frontier, shorter supply lines, spells of legend, Ancient Dragons.

Plus, Tolkeen sticking around gives us something to do with all those maps of Tolkeen after PA 107/108, and leaves a lot more interesting adventuring opportunities (IMO) than a bunch of scattered refugees and an insane Scard tracking down an insane Creed.

Is it because it is a magic state, and you think overwhelmingly that magic should trump tech?

No, as I just mentioned, I think it leaves a more interesting situation and gives me something to do with all the Tolkeen city info other than read as a historical curiosity.

Is it because CS are the badguys and the badguy should never win?

They just didn't have the economy or numbers.

Is it because they are the aggressor and the aggressor in anything should never win? Is it because of the tactics CS used?

History shows that aggressors win all the time (Genghis Khan), and that nasty tactics often get the job done (Vietnam vs. USA).

They tried, but did not succeed. In any event, I didn't cover the history of what happened to the Rings during SoT.

True, but would they have tried harder if the rings were a more "visible" force on the battlefield?

It could have, but in my version of events, it didn't matter.

And yet, Tolkeen does have a book of them, so anyone the Circle of Twelve wanted to have know them, knew them. I never said anything about 1st lvl magi knowing them, nothing at all. It would have been the high level "most trustworthy" magi.

And what would be concidered high? Or trustworthy? Or for that matter what would keep a good mage today from turning evil tomarrow now that he has a super-rare spell of legend. I agree, any one of the 12 could have learned them, but I dont' think spells of legend were gonna be as perdominant on the field, at least that's hwo I'm taking it your saying it.

What is high level or trustworthy? It's relative. And nothing can prevent someone on Tolkeen's staff from turning traitor. Just like nothing can prevent someone on the Prosek's staff from turning traitor just as bad.

1) A member of the Circle of the Twelve leaves with the book and his/her Ring of Elder, in the middle of the war. He takes numerous other magical treasures, and the TW design schematics for the Juggernauts.

2) A member of Prosek's High Command, unable to stomach the inhumanity of the Prosek's and the injustice of the CS, absconds with all of Chi-Town's military intelligence and mid-war force dispositions, supply locations and routes, spies in Tolkeen, etc.

Either one could happen.

Almost as if every platoon of Tolkeen soldiers one would have a spell of legend.

That is not what I meant. You're taking my statements a bit too far.

You can cast scrolls with spells of legend of them . . . SoT makes it clear that lots of these scrolls were available.

I didn't get that from SoT. I still got that mages were still pretty stingy with their spells, so you may have had a few spells of legend, but I in no way think that it would be anywher close to "alot"

If you check the stats of Scard and the Tolkeen Army commanders, they all have scrolls with the special spells of legend on them.

Also:

In the meantime, Tolkeen has made numerous scroll conversions of the Spells of Legend within the Book of Ten, and have distributed them far and wide to key leaders and trusted sorcerers throughout the Kingdom.

Lazlo didn't "send them", they went on their own. FQ didn't know for sure until it was too late.

So your saying FQ spies arn't any good?

FQ's spies probably figured it out a few weeks after the departures began.

When FQ's intelligence chiefs believed it and reported it to their commanders is a different story entirely.

The CS did not grant them independence. They're over 1000 miles away, and there is nothing the CS can do about it.

Had CS not acted hastily, they could have done something about it. But they made a stupid mistake. Regardless, it looks better for CS to say they "granted" Quebec it's freedom, this saves face, and still allows the two nations to be friendly.

Ok, I'll stipulate that it makes Chi-Town look better in front of its own citizens.

[RainOfSteel]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

No, they arn't meaningless. But as per Palladium rules, when you have 2 things that contradict each other, use the most resent ruling

I would prefer to use the more sensible rule/ruling.

[dark brandon]

In what way was it "clear they had no chance?"

I have stated it many times.

Chi-Town's effective population is only 2.5 times that of Tolkeen.

They have a far greater territory and frontier that must be defended than Tolkeen does. Chi-Town cannot take its entire army to war.

With only 5 million effectives to draw upon, there is no way this side of little green potatoes that the Chi-Town can mount a field army of 1,000,000. Forget it. It ain't gonna happen outside of dreamy la la land.

Well...it is just a game.

If Chi-Town arms 2.5% of its population, that's 125,000 troops. And you can probably tack on 20-50k dogboys. This is a force that the Chi-Town can actually afford to arm and equip. Were talking maybe 2,000 SAMAS, 2,000 other mecha, and maybe a dozen Death's Heads all told. This is still pushing the limits by a lot.
Now, you cannot possibly hope to take all of them to Tolkeen, maybe 20,000 troops or so as a field army, with maybe 10k dogboys (all the rest would be required to defend an enormous frontier against other enemies). Add 10k or so mercenaries hired on whatever sort of financial skullduggery (like "war bonds"; that CS citizens couldn't possibly afford) you want to stipulate to, and maybe a 2-5k Iron Heart expeditionary force and (only if FQ doesn't withdraw from the CS), 5-10k from FQ (where 5k and 10k are the exceptionally high figures in both cases). Oh, and toss in maybe 10-20k skelebots (although their expense makes that a big stretch of the imagination).

Tolkeen's population is 2,000,000, and they are fighting for their very survival. I think with their spells of legend and their smaller army*, then can blunt a force of 47-55k, yes I do.

* Tolkeen's army would be about 1.5% (smaller budget for the army) of the population. Or about 30,000 grand total. Add in about 5k from mercenaries (Tolkeen damages itself economically to hire them), about 2-5k volunteers from within the population, about 1-2k volunteers from outside the population who hate Chi-Town, 2k from NG, 2k from MI, And another 300 from Lazlo (very high quality) and 700 from New Lazlo. No demons of any type would be recruited by any means. That is 43-47k total troops. Most of which, 35k or more, would be placed directly on the southern frontier. Oh, and the Ancient, Adult, and Hatchling Dragons of Freehold, let's not forget about them. They plus the spells of legend, and the fact that it is easier to defend that attack (Tolkeen's forces will most often be under cover), and I think it would be a grinding war of losses for Chi-Town's forces.

Chi-Town loses 5k when Jericho Holmes idiotically leads his forces into a meat grinder inside the Xiticix Hivelands.

About 1/2 way through the war, Chi-Town scrapes the bottom of the barrel of their manpower and forces posted in other locations, and adds another 20k to the front lines. They push Tolkeen's forces back to the city itself, where the Circle of Twelve unleash massive waves of their spells of legend (aided by the Rings of Elder and having three nexi each member can draw upon).

Chi-Town's forces lay siege to the city for a week, but are unable to gain entry. Battered and effectively out of supply due to massive hit and run tactics against their supply lines, Chi-Town's army is forced to retreat.

The war is over. Chi-Town has lost 30-40k troops, but no civilian infrastructure (ok, maybe some is lost to covert strikes by Tolkeen, but nothing serious). Tolkeen loses 20k troops, many are irreplaceable magi; and their entire southern territory is a wasteland of destruction.

Note: Actually, all these numbers are probably too large given the actual economic forces available.

I would have little to say, if you didn't downsize CS so much, but what exactly are you cutting from Tolkeen? For example, is tolkeen gonna have a book of spells of legend? Are they gonna produce them and distribute them? Reading back, having this all these powerful things, the creation of things such as Iron golems the book with powerful spells of legends, all the elementals they seem to have at their disposal. What about the biggest contradiction of tolkeen. Dragons. As per any book that details dragons, most (especially powerful ones) are very territorial. I'm curious if you've "righted this terrible wrong" as well, or did you conviently let tolkeen keep it's dragon population?

For starters, it had to fall cause CS are the badguys.

I do not view that as a valid point.

You should. One of the biggest enemies of NA, if you are a player, generally will be CS, especially if you are a Dbee or Magic user (and to a slightly lesser degree psionics). With such a pounding, you really wouldn't have much to fear from them, at least outside their cities. CS make for interesting random encounters.

If they were able to hold up a fight and keep CS at bay, CS wouldn't be as imposing a nation as it is.

Oops. I don't feel sorry about that one at all.

See previous answer as to why they should still be a nation to be feared.

Tolkeen was a nothing little city-state, written from the get-go to be CS's .....

RMB p.139 is of two minds on this. It says Tolkeen is really big and bad, and ET says she's afraid it will fall anyway. She doesn't say she knows this, she says she is afraid for it.

I prefer to say that ET was better suited to comment on its industry and magical power, but less suited to comment on its military fate.

Ah, the erin tarn narrative. I'm sure you've seen the Rifts japan thread about where this can lead. I'll just go ahead and not touch it.

You had an entire book based around the CS war machine.

Containing numerous statements that are quite difficult to impossible to believe. Especially the figures regarding the numbers of troops and skelebots. Those figures are far, far, too high.

I never really had a problem with it. It's just a game and I luckly don't know enough about these statistical numbers for it to really care about it. As such, I also think kevin is of the same mind. I see no real need to have to go and research all this extra info, unless you're writing a book for D&D fans.

Would have been ultra lame to have it gone.

The whole book? Hmmm, if I had my choice, I would almost rather delete it.

As it stands, reducing the numbers of troops and machines is the best I can come up with. I reduced their numbers substantially.

The book was a great book. Great art, great information. Your only problem seems to stem simply from numbers. That's fine, but if you cut CS's numbers I think you should also cut Tolkeens numbers by the same %.

By weakening CS so much, you leave it open to attacks from FoM,

Yes, that is a problem . . . for Chi-Town, and one they brought upon themselves. I find it difficult to care about their stupidity.

You don't have to care about CS or their stupidity. But for game purposes, I find them nessissary, Playing CS soldiers or Dbee soldiers, to keep them at the level they are at.

Here's a question I just thought of. Why should, do you (the reader) think Tolkeen should have been left standing, won the war, brought it to a draw as opposed to being obliterated?

The numbers. Hard, uncaring numbers.

Chi-Town: 5 million effective pop (leaving out the effectively useless 'Burbs), and a giant frontier, internal problems (like the St. Louis Gate and the 'Burbs themselves), and other enemies on other fronts (especially the need to help defend Missouri and Lone Star), and fighting outside of their territory in a environment where long distance supply is very difficult.

Tolkeen: 2 million effective pop. Smaller frontier, shorter supply lines, spells of legend, Ancient Dragons.

Plus, Tolkeen sticking around gives us something to do with all those maps of Tolkeen after PA 107/108, and leaves a lot more interesting adventuring opportunities (IMO) than a bunch of scattered refugees and an insane Scard tracking down an insane Creed.

Well, why not just fix the numbers on both sides to make the same outcome that is written rather that rewriting the end? At the current moment, it does kinda suck those maps are useless. On the other hand, if you play a game that is 10 or 15 years down the road (year 125 PA for example) Tolkeen may very well be one of those destoryed cities, where like chicago, can make for an interesting place to adventure to find things. Most good fantasy books have those cities that were destoryed and razed to the ground...then forgotten. And then how scavangers went in to loot the city and then years later it was hidden away again. Well, this may very well be Rifts earth first "lost city". Dunno. Has potential.

What is high level or trustworthy? It's relative. And nothing can prevent someone on Tolkeen's staff from turning traitor. Just like nothing can prevent someone on the Prosek's staff from turning traitor just as bad.

1) A member of the Circle of the Twelve leaves with the book and his/her Ring of Elder, in the middle of the war. He takes numerous other magical treasures, and the TW design schematics for the Juggernauts.

2) A member of Prosek's High Command, unable to stomach the inhumanity of the Prosek's and the injustice of the CS, absconds with all of Chi-Town's military intelligence and mid-war force dispositions, supply locations and routes, spies in Tolkeen, etc.

I really wasn't talking about the middle of the war. But afterwords. Someone taught joe the spell of legend, now joe is selling it on the market to anyone who can afford it. Bob, does the same thing with CS blue-prints. But unlike blue-prints, where in about 10 years the knowledge is more common place and after 20 obsolete, these are powerful spells of legend and really don't go obsolete after any number of years.

The CS did not grant them independence. They're over 1000 miles away, and there is nothing the CS can do about it.

Had CS not acted hastily, they could have done something about it. But they made a stupid mistake. Regardless, it looks better for CS to say they "granted" Quebec it's freedom, this saves face, and still allows the two nations to be friendly.

Ok, I'll stipulate that it makes Chi-Town look better in front of its own citizens.

[/quote]

I think it would also look pretty good to many citizens eyes in nearly every human nation. Even quebec citizens "welcomed the end of the war and the seemingly sincere words of appolgy". The leaders of many nations probably werent fooled, but the citizens may not know the difference.

[Toc Rat]

You should. One of the biggest enemies of NA, if you are a player, generally will be CS, especially if you are a Dbee or Magic user (and to a slightly lesser degree psionics). With such a pounding, you really wouldn't have much to fear from them, at least outside their cities. CS make for interesting random encounters.

Popular opinion seems to be contrary, however. Most people seem to treat the CS not as the 'main' bad guy, but rather a nuisance that's to be encountered every so often.

Really? Hmm, in my games the players always the CS to be the primary source of trouble. Heck even when they are playing CS characters they (the players not the characters) see themselves as part of the "Evil Empire". Like playing storm troopers in starwars.

As for me, except for the time I played an Undead Slayer in mexico, I would have to say the primary villian (s) are the Coalition States. They have simply been writen that way. I mean who else do we have? The FoM? Please, Dunscan is a pathetic wana-be and the rest of the FoM is little better. Maybe if they were all united under one flag and actually had an agenda they could be scary. The Xitixic? Lazlo has them bottled up in the north for now. The Splugorth? Ole Splynnie is content to cause a little trouble here and there but for the most part stays on his continent and watches the fun. Mindwerks? Oh please, it and the two monster nations it props up are both going to go under.

Nothing beats the CS in sheer coolness of villians factor. They got sharp looking uniforms, wear black, utterly ruthless and militarisic, lead by a cold calculating madman, what more could you ask for in a villian?

[Toc Rat]

So the passages in the FQ book and Aftermath are meaningless then eh?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it any less true. You may discount those paragraphs because they don't fit in to your preconcieved notions of how the world works but I don't.

No, they arn't meaningless. But as per Palladium rules, when you have 2 things that contradict each other, use the most resent ruling

I would prefer to use the more sensible rule/ruling.

Agreed I too go with the more sensible ruling.

[Toc Rat]

No, but the reason given as to why quebec has no interest in attacking Lazlo is because they lack the power. They were content with not attacking because they have little choice. Lazlo has not shown to be any type of threat (in fact they are a peaceful nation), and they don't have the power to take lazlo so, it's a stalemate.

But it was never stated that if Quebec had the resources or power they wouldn't attack. That's where I get the stuff from the RUE book and the RMB.

Now, if lazlo showed signs of aggression (Such as for example attacking CS) or signs of weakness (Having many of it's powerful beings go and help tolkeen) I think would be enough to justify quebec to attack Lazlo.

Again thats the reason given by Erin Tarn in RMB and RUE. NOT FQ itself in the book all about FQ and the Rifts Aftermath book. Hence I go with the the words straight for the horse's mouth as it were. If you read those books you will also note that FQ is convinced those tricky magic users are just waiting for the right moment to attack FQ. They (FQ) have also been waiting for that day to come for over 40 years now. However they continue to wait not out of simple fear of losing in a war of agression against them but rather it is not their (FQ) way to launch an attack. They are a fiercely independent nation and as an extension of that, aren't interested in conquering others.

One of the primary differences between FQ and the CS (prosek) that lead to them leaving wasn't the Glitter Boy issue. That was just added fuel to the fire. The primary issue was that the CS went from being a democratic republic to totalitarian dictatorship lead by an emperor. A emperor that wanted all of his subject states and citizens to bow to his will. Something FREE Quebec would never do.

The second big reason was that this emperor was interested in rapid expansion by force of arms. FQ, as stated previously, isn't interested in starting wars with every random kingdom/nation on the planet. Such a course of action can only lead to trouble in their minds.

Result, FQ left the CS so as to not be drawn in to their (proseks) never ending wars and mad dreams of conquests. They don't want to be there when his empire is brought crahsing down around him because he kicked a sleeping dragon. A very sensible attitude and one I don't see them changing any time soon...as evidenced by them waiting for an attack from Lazlo for the past 40+ years.

[dark brandon]

You should. One of the biggest enemies of NA, if you are a player, generally will be CS, especially if you are a Dbee or Magic user (and to a slightly lesser degree psionics). With such a pounding, you really wouldn't have much to fear from them, at least outside their cities. CS make for interesting random encounters.

Popular opinion seems to be contrary, however. Most people seem to treat the CS not as the 'main' bad guy, but rather a nuisance that's to be encountered every so often.

People to treat CS that way are not playing them to their full potential. If you play CS like zombies, rushing head long into battle and only play them to be nuisances...then to those, I suggest they have a game where they play CS soldiers that find it difficult, if not impossible to quit the CS. Let them play the enemie a few times. For a GM this would be a good time to get the idea of how CS soldiers handle themselves in battle, and to use them in a similar way when playing them as NPC's or villains. Play CS villains as someone plays a PC and you'd be surprised at how increadibly difficult they are to kill.

[dark brandon]

You guys seem to discount the dangers of the Rifts (demons, dragons, etc), Archie 3 (a secretive powerhouse, but not a figure to be forgotten), the Angar Demon, Federation of Magic, Xicticix... and when compared to those other threats PCs face.. the CS is naught more than another bully on the block.

Who said I discounted them? Archie, angar fed of magic...they are all nasty enemies. But CS is not just another bully on the block. They pretty much own the block. Not only that they have a fanatical population, extreamly well trained soldiers and a near limitless supply of resources. You think that group of CS ya misted back there just disappears? It'll probably be investigated, and now not only do you have to deal with what you have going now, but you have to deal with a vengful CS.

Not to mention the fact that the CS is set up not to be 'the' villian.. KS himself keeps bringing up the fact that they have a good side too; protection of humanity, advancements in science, etc..

They are the main villain in the main book. What makes them 3 dimentional villains, as opposed to some boring AI is the fact that there is some good. A villain doesn't have to be pure evil. Are they a villain? Yep. But they are 3 dimentional villains, and that's what makes them (or could make them if played right) so great is the fact that you can play them and not be insainly evil They arn't demons who take joy in killing of other creatures (Well some do). They have families at home, they've probably lost someone to some magic user/dbee/pychic...

And I never said they were zombies. Merely that the CS isn't the only villian, and shouldn't be the only villian. In the campaign I wrote this up, the only CS involvement (not counting Free Quebec) will be limited to a small unit. And, given how I will have these guys operate, the PCs will hopefully come to fear/respect their Coalition counterparts.

Good for you. They arn't the only villains, but they are big bad one's, and that is why I'm against weakening them to an almost crippling point. I'm not saying you need CS for Rifts earth. But I do think that if you lose them for NA your cutting out a big piece of the NA adventure.

[gaby]

General Holmes,s surprise air raid attack make the Ley lines Triangular Defense System go Heywire!

Magestock,Freehold and Tolkeen Vanish in a Explosion of blue energy.

Are they Destroyed?

No In Reality the 3 cities and all beings within Ley line Triangle have been Rifted some where else,But Where?

I still Woking on it.

This is How the Siege on Tolkeen ended in My Game world.

[twingle93]

Here's how my ending went:

Robert Creed is giving his famous speech urging everyone to leave, and just as he gets to the last word, he gasps. And then in front of everyone, his body graphically splits open and then something made of golden energy enters his body as it re-knits.

"“Ignore the previous address.” His voice an echo of death. “Coalition States, hear the words of the dead and living King of Tolkeen. You have called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind, for I have now come among you. To all those who call Tolkeen your homeland, FIGHT ON UNTIL THE LAST!”

Now Robert Creed's body is host to something far more powerful than anything previously seen, the secret benefactor of Tolkeen, the one who gave them the Iron Juggernaut designs, the one who gave them contact to the Daemonix, and now doesn't want to see its investment go to waste.

This new mockery of Robert Creeds lays waste to the invading CS forces, while both sides are stunned. The Daemonix are thrilled at this turn of events, muttering to themselves "At last, a worthy master."

Several hours later the same thing happens to Warlord Scard, and days later to Cervega Klister, and so forth. Members of the Circle of Twelve are dying and coming back as possessed splintered life-essences for something else, and together they are driving back the invading Coalition forces with terrifying displays of power.

Tolkeen still burns, but now broadcasts are given by their dead and living king, telling the populace that everything is fine, and things are being restored. The trains will be back on line and the banks will open again, it says in a mocking, patronizing voice. The Daemonix and Iron Juggernauts are enforcing the "King's" will, while the rest of the army's forces are deserting in the face of this new threat.

Tolkeen was saved, the Coalition beaten, but now there is a far greater evil force loose in the world as a result, and its calling Tolkeen its home.

[boxee]

I liked the SOT, it can go many ways depending on the players and the gamemaster. THE ONE thing I hated was Erin Tarn rubbing King Creeds nose in her "I told you so!". Personally I would have shot her.

Dont start with the ending, play it through, it can go totally diferent directions.
Example-
Lazlo and New Lazlo find them selves under a sudden massive attack from the bugs. Lazlo and New Lazlo retreat to the south losing most of their power but they drive the bugs back.

Just as the Coalition attacks Tolkeen a massive fleet of mechanoids rip into both armies.

King Creed sees his moment and acts quickly to evacuate his people to the midwest near arzno.

Just some ideas guys, have fun with them.

[Lenwen]

Darkbranden,

The key linchpin to your scenario is dogboys ability to id mages and especially the more powerful mage

Fact is the books iirc.. clearly stated the dogboys magic/psionic tracking abilities as well as those of psi-stalkers were in fact obliterated due to the interfering of the close proximity of ley lines and nexus points.


That alone means that your idea of head hunting the more powerful casters and caster items is shot before ever it was a working plan

[TechnoGothic]

I would rather had Tolkeen and the CS neither have won the War. Stalemated.
Then before the War is offically over, we get a huge Demon Invasion (minion war).
Tolkeen and the CS are forced to work together to over come the new threat.
Lazlo and New Lazlo join in the War, as does Free Queebec against the Demon hordes.

Events happen with force the CS to accept Tolkeen as a "Good" nation of magic Offically.
These events have Tolkeen become a CS-state, the CS-State of Magic. One of these events is mages bring a Slain Prosek and Son back to Life, forcing them both to accept Magic can be used for "good".

The Demon Horde is defeated only by the events which causes Tolkeen and the CS to become one nation. Lazlo and New Lazlo are still indepenant for now.

Now the Federation of Magic is worried, mad, and afraid of what this could mean for them.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'd have an alternate ending where you see Desmond Bradford standing over the Human Centipede of Holmes/ Karl/ Joseph, yelling, "Feed him! Feed him!"