Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

[Natalya]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

Please guys, are you all trying to give me nightmares?!?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

Please guys, are you all trying to give me nightmares?!?

nightmares about ture love

[Zer0 Kay]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

Please guys, are you all trying to give me nightmares?!?

nightmares about ture love

Yeah I like how you spelled true... your missing the tor infront of it

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

Please guys, are you all trying to give me nightmares?!?

nightmares about ture love

Yeah I like how you spelled true... your missing the tor infront of it

hey you try typimg with 2 kids bugging you

[RainOfSteel]

Seraphim,

Thank you!

[Zer0 Kay]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

Ow! Stop it Zer0 Kay. Stop it! Ahhhhhhhh . . . what?

Anyway, I prefer not to go down either road.

Karl Prosek was never admired or desired by Erin Tarn, at least In My Rifts Universe (IMRU).

she couldnt get so worked up over a bunch of burning books even she knows they werent burned to began with, Karl Prosek was the young military officer and Erin Tarn was the young pure farmer girl

Please guys, are you all trying to give me nightmares?!?

Hey you know Prosek could have been a nice guy when he was young and while coming up in power realized he could band what humanity was left by using a scapegoat. Of course when Erin hears of his plans she's horrified and threatens to leave. Prosek figures that she is just jelous of the power he shall hold and unwilling to just be a powerless first lady, but he must do it because the future of mankind depends on him (more ego stroking). Erin distraught and... Pregnant starts starts having pains. Ends up going to a CS hospital and has the child (a little early). The childs father is informed and ends up using his influence. The doctors tell Tarn that there were complications with the child partially due to an early birth... Tarn bursts out in tears, with a realization. Her child, her son has died. She leaves Chi-Town as soon as she is well enough to and begins her travels. Karl takes the child and within months marries another woman. Their child Karl had named.... (bah bah bum) Joseph.

If that ain't enough to make you hurl.

[Zer0 Kay]

Who said it was a crush? They were lovers before Karl met his wife.

nightmares about ture love

Yeah I like how you spelled true... your missing the tor infront of it

I was thinking the EXACT same thing!

Sraphim,

<psst />

Can you fix the quoting levels? And that part that has me saying: "nightmares about ture love "?

Yeah what he said I said toture, Mech-viper said "ture love"

[Killer Cyborg]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

You'll recall that I mentioned that intention several times in this thread, as indication that the world of Rifts portrayed in the main book was meant to be pretty much as written.
In Rifts, he draws the picture, and he intended to color it in with the Worldbook.

But it doesn't really matter here.
If all Drinker was saying was "KS didn't intend to put the title of 'world book' on the main book" then he's right... but it has nothing to do with anything.

I took his post to mean that KS never intended for the main book to portray accurate information on the world of Rifts, and that seems to be untrue... since the books spends quite a bit of time fleshing out the world.

[Killer Cyborg]

And, I believe I read that somewhere else, maybe in one of the old FAQ sections or an interview, or maybe even in the RUE Designer's Notes or an old Rifter, but I can't honestly remember where. I'll keep an eye out for it, though.

Well, let me know if you find it....

Also, if you must argue that whatever KS as Erin Tarn says should be the only view of the world, I direct you to RMB pg 137, second paragraph first column where, I quote, "Unfortunately, that is not saying much, as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world."

Yes. "Gaps".
Like her admitted lack of knowledge about Australia and the rest of the world. And the times when she states that she is working off of rumor.

This caveat covers the 'we don't know' and the 'this particular view has changed' equally well. So when Rifts was first written, it could be equally said with authority that KS had no plans for Japan beyond the empty wasteland of islands, to what the Japan book became. Who knows for sure? Kevin does, but he ain't talking.

All we have to do is ask him. Write him a letter yourself, if you like.

But there is nothing in the main book to indicate that he had any plans for Japan other than what was written at the time.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

[Jesterzzn]

All we have to do is ask him. Write him a letter yourself, if you like.

But there is nothing in the main book to indicate that he had any plans for Japan other than what was written at the time.

I agree. It's not like he needed Japan to add ninjas to Rifts. Ninja's and Superspies was already in print, as was Mystic China.

[Killer Cyborg]

well, i think it's canon material and people need to deal with it. my 2 cents.

Well, you're wrong.
For one thing, people don't need to deal with it.... we can ignore the book as we like, or not.
For another thing, you're missing the point of this thread.
We're not discussing whether or not Japan was a good book.
We're not even discussing whether it should have been written.
All this particular thread is about is whether or not KS changed his intentions from the main book.

You might be wondering why we spend so much time on this, but I feel that it's an important point. Because I'm tired of getting jumped on by people when I point out that the game has changed over the years.
Japan is changed from the original book.
New West is a change from the original book.
The mage-armor rule and the Two Attacks For Living are changes from the original book.

Whether or not they are good changes is certainly open for debate. I can see why people would like the New West books, and even why they might like the Japan book. I can see why they might like the TAFL, the mage-armor rule, and the -10 rule.
But I simply cannot see why people get so worked up when I point out that these things were NOT part of the game originally.

Take the Two Attacks for Living.
There have been countless threads over the years debating whether or not this was a change... because many people simply refuesed to believe that they were a later addition to the rules.
But they are; KS himself told me in person and wrote a paragraph explaining it in CB1 Revised.
In short, I was right and all the people who inexplicably wished to believe that the Two Attacks had always been there were wrong.

It's the same thing here, although KS hasn't mentioned it in writing yet.
KS has changed his view of Rifts Japan over the years.
There's nothing wrong with it, but people jump out of the woodwork to "defend" KS by claiming that he always intended for Japan to be populated and for interesting things to be happening there... in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
Personally, I think that it's kind of condescending for them to assume that Kev needs this sort of protection. He's a grown man, and a fairly brilliant one at that. He runs a successful company and he has done so for decades.

One of the wonderful things about getting to talk to him at GenCon was that we were able to discuss how I felt about the game that he had created, without anybody instantly trying to shut me down any time I pointed out that the game had changed over the years.
I know that people love the game; I love the game myself.... but it doesn't need to be defended from things that aren't attacks and pointing out that the vision of Japan has changed over the years is NOT an attack.

So the point of this thread is to settle things on the issue, so that I am not jumped on by well-intentioned people every time I point out the many ways that the game has changed over the years.

[Dr. Doom III]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

You'll recall that I mentioned that intention several times in this thread, as indication that the world of Rifts portrayed in the main book was meant to be pretty much as written.
In Rifts, he draws the picture, and he intended to color it in with the World book.

But it doesn't really matter here.
If all Drinker was saying was "KS didn't intend to put the title of 'world book' on the main book" then he's right... but it has nothing to do with anything.

I took his post to mean that KS never intended for the main book to portray accurate information on the world of Rifts, and that seems to be untrue... since the books spends quite a bit of time fleshing out the world.

He didn't intend it to have all the information either and clearly it didn't.
I don't see you complaining that the vague world over view has stuff listed for places that have been pretty much none and ignored.
Where are the "dozen waring feudal kingdoms" in France, the city of Amsterdam, Norway and Sweden?
I guess since Erin Tarn never mentioned Antartica then it must have sunk? And where did this Australia come from? She never mentioned that.

The only places with any real detail are in North America and that's for a reason.

[The Galactus Kid]

I agree with Doom.

I don't agree with KC.

To each his own.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Fluff"...?

Yes, fluff. KS has said on many occasions that the RMB was NEVER meant to be a world sourcebook.

"So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?"

Actually the part where is says more info in the upcoming Rifts world book. Notice the intent for one world book not 30.

You'll recall that I mentioned that intention several times in this thread, as indication that the world of Rifts portrayed in the main book was meant to be pretty much as written.
In Rifts, he draws the picture, and he intended to color it in with the World book.

But it doesn't really matter here.
If all Drinker was saying was "KS didn't intend to put the title of 'world book' on the main book" then he's right... but it has nothing to do with anything.

I took his post to mean that KS never intended for the main book to portray accurate information on the world of Rifts, and that seems to be untrue... since the books spends quite a bit of time fleshing out the world.

He didn't intend it to have all the information either and clearly it didn't.

True.
But it DID have the information that Japan was destroyed and turned into a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

I don't see you complaining that the vague world over view has stuff listed for places that have been pretty much none and ignored.

Really?
You've never noticed me gripe about the New West and other places that ignore the original population stats?
Huh.

Either way, this thread is only about Japan... not other places.

Where are the "dozen waring feudal kingdoms" in France, the city of Amsterdam, Norway and Sweden?

I have yet to see a worldbook on any of those countries... so there's not much conflicting info on it that I've seen.

I guess since Erin Tarn never mentioned Antartica then it must have sunk?

No... it means that she doesn't know anything significant about it.

And where did this Australia come from? She never mentioned that.

Yes, she did. As I have mentioned numerous times in this thread.
She clearly states that she knows nothing about Australia and the rest of the world.
Which clearly shows that she DID know something about Japan, otherwise she would have lumped it in with that group.

The only places with any real detail are in North America and that's for a reason.

Agreed. Because North America is where the action was predominantly supposed to take place originally.
But that's a different gripe entierly.

[Killer Cyborg]

I agree with Doom.

I don't agree with KC.

To each his own.

Don't agree with me on what?
That Kev originally didn't intend for anything significant to be going on in Japan?

You run into the guy now and again... why not ask him about it?

[Dr. Doom III]

Yes, she did. As I have mentioned numerous times in this thread.
She clearly states that she knows nothing about Australia and the rest of the world.
Which clearly shows that she DID know something about Japan, otherwise she would have lumped it in with that group.

And as I have stated the Japan book says that her information was true at one time. Before migration and the return of the tech cities.

Agreed. Because North America is where the action was predominantly supposed to take place originally.
But that's a different gripe entirely.

Really?
They why the information on the other places that are not quiet wilderness islands? I guess no one was ever supposed to go to England, The NGR, Atlantis or China. Just meaningless fluff that was never intended to be expanded on?

[The Galactus Kid]

I have. He likes Japan. Next Time I speak to him, I will readdress this.

[cornholioprime]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

And an equally simple Explanation is that Kevin wanted her to have "gaps" in the info that she had on Japan that he could fill in later. Whether he filled it in with Wilderness Cities, Fadetown Rezidents, or nothing at all, he left himself an out (in Japan's case, anyway) rather than have Erin Tarn say definitively, "there ain't nothing there."

If he comes up with, say, "Rifts: Phillipines," a Book on an area of Rifts Earth CLEARLY stated to be devoid of (human) life, THEN you'll have more of an argument.

And that presumed that the whole "Rifts Books" thing would even take off, which of course Kevin didn't know at the time.

Hence my Phrasing in my previous Post "...if he so wished..."

[RainOfSteel]

I guess since Erin Tarn never mentioned Antartica then it must have sunk? And where did this Australia come from? She never mentioned that.

Erin Tarn mentions Australia, she says she doesn't know what happened there.

[The Galactus Kid]

...but she DID know about Japan.

Well, obviously se didn't if she said it was a small string of wilderness islands...

[Kalinda]

I have. He likes Japan. Next Time I speak to him, I will readdress this.

I'm sure he does like the book, he approved it after all. however thats different from having planned to have japan full of cyber ninjas and such from day one.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, she did. As I have mentioned numerous times in this thread.
She clearly states that she knows nothing about Australia and the rest of the world.
Which clearly shows that she DID know something about Japan, otherwise she would have lumped it in with that group.

And as I have stated the Japan book says that her information was true at one time. Before migration and the return of the tech cities.

Completely irrelevent.
The fact is that when he wrote the main book, Kev did not plan for there to be a Japan book.
The migration and return of the tech cities is a change from the main book.

Agreed. Because North America is where the action was predominantly supposed to take place originally.
But that's a different gripe entirely.

Really?
They why the information on the other places that are not quiet wilderness islands? I guess no one was ever supposed to go to England, The NGR, Atlantis or China. Just meaningless fluff that was never intended to be expanded on?

Key word being "most".

[Killer Cyborg]

I have. He likes Japan. Next Time I speak to him, I will readdress this.

He mentioned to me that he likes Japan.
A lot of people do.
There are things in the book that I like myself.
The popularity or quality of the book are not the question at hand.

The question at hand is, "When Kevin wrote the main book, where he described Japan as being a quiet chain of wilderness islands, did he intend for that to be an accurate description of the place, or did he secretely have plans all along to have a bunch of stuff going on there?"

[Killer Cyborg]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

And an equally simple Explanation is that Kevin wanted her to have "gaps" in the info that she had on Japan that he could fill in later. Whether he filled it in with Wilderness Cities, Fadetown Rezidents, or nothing at all, he left himself an out (in Japan's case, anyway) rather than have Erin Tarn say definitively, "there ain't nothing there."

If he comes up with, say, "Rifts: Phillipines," a Book on an area of Rifts Earth CLEARLY stated to be devoid of (human) life, THEN you'll have more of an argument.

And that presumed that the whole "Rifts Books" thing would even take off, which of course Kevin didn't know at the time.

Hence my Phrasing in my previous Post "...if he so wished..."

So why didn't he include Japan in with "Australia and the rest of the world"?

[The Galactus Kid]

OH. I'm sorry I completely misunderstood what was going on. OK, let me get this right.

1. Erin Tarn listed Japan as a chain of small wilderness islands.
2. WB #8 says thats true until the migration and repopulation.

NOW, Kevin says he likes Japan. The ideas are good, the book is out and it is canon, and the debate here is as simple as asking if he intended there to even be a japan book? Thats simple.

The answer is no. Knowing Kevin it was probablly an idea he was tossing around, but decided against early on. Then when RIFTS became so popular he decided to flesh it out. As Doom has pointed out, there was originally only ONE world book slated, not 30+ and many of these places would never have even been considered for their own book (Free Quebec, Xiticix Hivelands, The dimesional Market etc.) 15 years ago, kevin wouldn't have even considered writing Ultimate Rifts, but the time was right and the ideas came out. I see that as being why Japan came out. They had the ideas, the time, the money, AND THEY MADE IT FIT WITHIN THE CONTINUITY BY DETAILING THE PREVIOUS STATEMENTS IN THE BOOK.

So, I hope that addresses the issue. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

[Dr. Doom III]

Completely irrelevent.
The fact is that when he wrote the main book, Kev did not plan for there to be a Japan book.
The migration and return of the tech cities is a change from the main book.

So?

[RainOfSteel]

OH. I'm sorry I completely misunderstood what was going on. OK, let me get this right. [...]

You are correct. (The above has been stated and re-stated in this topic several times.)

[dark brandon]

So, I hope that addresses the issue. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

UR WRONGZ! Plus you smell funny!

[cornholioprime]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

And an equally simple Explanation is that Kevin wanted her to have "gaps" in the info that she had on Japan that he could fill in later. Whether he filled it in with Wilderness Cities, Fadetown Rezidents, or nothing at all, he left himself an out (in Japan's case, anyway) rather than have Erin Tarn say definitively, "there ain't nothing there."

If he comes up with, say, "Rifts: Phillipines," a Book on an area of Rifts Earth CLEARLY stated to be devoid of (human) life, THEN you'll have more of an argument.

And that presumed that the whole "Rifts Books" thing would even take off, which of course Kevin didn't know at the time.

Hence my Phrasing in my previous Post "...if he so wished..."

The gaps she had were when she said, "I don't know anything about these places." The sheer number of places she doesn't know about leave plenty of rooms for "gaps", but she DID know about Japan.

...but she DID know about Japan.

Well, obviously se didn't if she said it was a small string of wilderness islands...

EXACTLY!!!!!


...instead of Kevin have Tarn say something definitive -she didn't even use the Phrasing that she used to describe the Far West ("...I can't see ANY evidence that Humans have ever set foot here...") -she utters some vagaries about Japan that, ultimately, don't really decisively mean one thing or the other......

[cornholioprime]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

And an equally simple Explanation is that Kevin wanted her to have "gaps" in the info that she had on Japan that he could fill in later. Whether he filled it in with Wilderness Cities, Fadetown Rezidents, or nothing at all, he left himself an out (in Japan's case, anyway) rather than have Erin Tarn say definitively, "there ain't nothing there."

If he comes up with, say, "Rifts: Phillipines," a Book on an area of Rifts Earth CLEARLY stated to be devoid of (human) life, THEN you'll have more of an argument.

And that presumed that the whole "Rifts Books" thing would even take off, which of course Kevin didn't know at the time.

Hence my Phrasing in my previous Post "...if he so wished..."

So why didn't he include Japan in with "Australia and the rest of the world"?

Beacuse, as she herself stated, she knows NOTHING about those places.

But what you're doing is going from one extreme to the other.

You're automatically placing the missives in Traversing Our Modern World -again, a Book NOT officially endorsed by Tarn precisely because she knows that at least some of the info in it is almost certainly "wrong" -into exactly two Categories.

You're effectively saying that the info in TOMW is either all "wrong" or all "right."

When in fact there are at least FOUR Categories:

Places that she has been to and knows (e.g., Chi-Town), or for which ther is a tleast evidence that she has been in the Region;
Places that she clearly states her knowledge consists of Rumor for the most part (e.g., Atlantis);
Places that she clearly states she knows nothing about (e.g., Australia);
And, finally, places where it is indeterminate from the text of TOMW whether or not she herself (or the unnamed Ghost Writer[s]) was actually the one to survey the land and make a Report, and/or there is no evidence whatsoever that she has ever even been in the Region.

Japan seems, to me at least, to fall into the final category.

[The Beast]

The Math is pretty simple to me.

"....Vast gaps in her [Erin Tarn's] knowledge of the world..." plus "..quiet wilderness Islands" plus the fact that the Notes in question were up to 20+ years old in 100 P.A. (which dates back to P.A. 80; The Cities of Japan rifted back in P.A. 87) multiplied by the fact that the work Traversing Our Modern World isn't even officially endorsed by Tarn because she knows that her Atlas isn't 100% accurate

= A most ingenious Plot Device by KevSim whereby any Area on Rifts Earth not filled in with Details, could be later, or left "unknown," if he and Palladium so wished.....

So you honestly believe that when KS wrote the main book, he deliberately misled people about Japan, planning all along to rift in a high-tech city and include cyber-ninjas and such.... somewhere in the single worldbook that was to be released...?

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

The simplest explanation is that the he meant what he said when he said it.

And an equally simple Explanation is that Kevin wanted her to have "gaps" in the info that she had on Japan that he could fill in later. Whether he filled it in with Wilderness Cities, Fadetown Rezidents, or nothing at all, he left himself an out (in Japan's case, anyway) rather than have Erin Tarn say definitively, "there ain't nothing there."

If he comes up with, say, "Rifts: Phillipines," a Book on an area of Rifts Earth CLEARLY stated to be devoid of (human) life, THEN you'll have more of an argument.

And that presumed that the whole "Rifts Books" thing would even take off, which of course Kevin didn't know at the time.

Hence my Phrasing in my previous Post "...if he so wished..."

So why didn't he include Japan in with "Australia and the rest of the world"?

Beacuse, as she herself stated, she knows NOTHING about those places.

But what you're doing is going from one extreme to the other.

You're automatically placing the missives in Traversing Our Modern World -again, a Book NOT officially endorsed by Tarn precisely because she knows that at least some of the info in it is almost certainly "wrong" -into exactly two Categories.

You're effectively saying that the info in TOMW is either all "wrong" or all "right."

When in fact there are at least FOUR Categories:

Places that she has been to and knows (e.g., Chi-Town), or for which ther is a tleast evidence that she has been in the Region;
Places that she clearly states her knowledge consists of Rumor for the most part (e.g., Atlantis);
Places that she clearly states she knows nothing about (e.g., Australia);
And, finally, places where it is indeterminate from the text of TOMW whether or not she herself (or the unnamed Ghost Writer[s]) was actually the one to survey the land and make a Report, and/or there is no evidence whatsoever that she has ever even been in the Region.

Japan seems, to me at least, to fall into the final category.

Isn't the closest infomation about Japan that she knows about is from rumors and induedo from natives from Russia who was visiting the NGR?

From info found in RUE; yes. But what this debate is about is if KS meant that the info from the RMB was how Japan was meant to be (thus making WB8 a change), or if he intentionally mislead us (via Erin Tarn saying Japan was destroyed), or if he was vauge because he had no idea what to do with Japan.

My opinion is that KC is half right. KS probably had an idea for ninjas and samuri in Japan (but no high tech stuff), and then someone came along with the tech stuff, KS liked it, and made it fit into his idea.

[Richter]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

[dark brandon]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

[MrTwist]

I'm more surprised people actually give a crap. Or is this just another excuse to debate endlessly over minutiae?

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm more surprised people actually give a crap. Or is this just another excuse to debate endlessly over minutiae?

Um...YES

[Zer0 Kay]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Quick everyone lets SPAM it to death we must save the Ninja!!!!

[dark brandon]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Quick everyone lets SPAM it to death we must save the Ninja!!!!

Just bringing a bit of levity to the thread. KC makes excellent points, so does doom. I just got bored and posted something.

After all, everyone loves SPAM!

[Zer0 Kay]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Quick everyone lets SPAM it to death we must save the Ninja!!!!

Just bringing a bit of levity to the thread. KC makes excellent points, so does doom. I just got bored and posted something.

After all, everyone loves SPAM!

What is the answer to this question?

SPAM+CAN=

?? A Monty Python skit? A dead rotten pig in a SAMAS or other power armor? I don't know what are you refering to as SPAM and what is the CAN?

[Zer0 Kay]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Quick everyone lets SPAM it to death we must save the Ninja!!!!

Just bringing a bit of levity to the thread. KC makes excellent points, so does doom. I just got bored and posted something.

After all, everyone loves SPAM!

What is the answer to this question?

SPAM+CAN=

?? A Monty Python skit? A dead rotten pig in a SAMAS or other power armor? I don't know what are you referring to as SPAM and what is the CAN?

Spam in a Can is a metaphor for Cyborg.

Where was that I don't remember it?

[RainOfSteel]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Keep posting, keep posting!

[Zer0 Kay]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Keep posting, keep posting!

Are you enemy of Ninja?

[Killer Cyborg]

OH. I'm sorry I completely misunderstood what was going on. OK, let me get this right.

1. Erin Tarn listed Japan as a chain of small wilderness islands.
2. WB #8 says thats true until the migration and repopulation.

NOW, Kevin says he likes Japan. The ideas are good, the book is out and it is canon, and the debate here is as simple as asking if he intended there to even be a japan book? Thats simple.

The answer is no. Knowing Kevin it was probablly an idea he was tossing around, but decided against early on. Then when RIFTS became so popular he decided to flesh it out. As Doom has pointed out, there was originally only ONE world book slated, not 30+ and many of these places would never have even been considered for their own book (Free Quebec, Xiticix Hivelands, The dimesional Market etc.) 15 years ago, kevin wouldn't have even considered writing Ultimate Rifts, but the time was right and the ideas came out. I see that as being why Japan came out. They had the ideas, the time, the money, AND THEY MADE IT FIT WITHIN THE CONTINUITY BY DETAILING THE PREVIOUS STATEMENTS IN THE BOOK.

So, I hope that addresses the issue. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

Nope.
That covers it pretty much exactly (although I was the first one to point out that there was only supposed to be one Worldbook).

[Killer Cyborg]

Completely irrelevent.
The fact is that when he wrote the main book, Kev did not plan for there to be a Japan book.
The migration and return of the tech cities is a change from the main book.

So?

So it bugs me when I mention that the Japan book is a change from the original vision for Rifts and people jump on my case, claiming that it's not a change at all.

[Killer Cyborg]

So why didn't he include Japan in with "Australia and the rest of the world"?

Beacuse, as she herself stated, she knows NOTHING about those places.

Correct.
And she DID know that Japan was a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.

But what you're doing is going from one extreme to the other.

No, I'm operating off of a clear scale.
There are places where Tarn was working off of rumors, and she says so.
There are places where there are significant things happening, and she says so.
There are places that she knows nothing about.
Japan is not any of these things.

It is not a place that she knows nothing about, so therefore she knows something about it.
She does not mention basing her info off of rumors, so therefore she was not.
There is nothing listed of interest there, so therefore there was nothing of interest going on there.

You're automatically placing the missives in Traversing Our Modern World -again, a Book NOT officially endorsed by Tarn precisely because she knows that at least some of the info in it is almost certainly "wrong" -into exactly two Categories.

It wasn't endorsed by Tarn because she knows that there are gaps in her knowledge.
Having "Gaps" is entirely different from containing false information.

You're effectively saying that the info in TOMW is either all "wrong" or all "right."

Not at all.
I'm saying that it was all canon when it was written.
It was canon that Tarn heard rumors about some places.
It was canon that Tarn knew nothing about some places.
It was canon that Tarn knew that Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands where nothing significant was going on.

When in fact there are at least FOUR Categories:

Places that she has been to and knows (e.g., Chi-Town), or for which ther is a tleast evidence that she has been in the Region;

Japan, for example.

Places that she clearly states her knowledge consists of Rumor for the most part (e.g., Atlantis);
Places that she clearly states she knows nothing about (e.g., Australia);
And, finally, places where it is indeterminate from the text of TOMW whether or not she herself (or the unnamed Ghost Writer[s]) was actually the one to survey the land and make a Report, and/or there is no evidence whatsoever that she has ever even been in the Region.

Unnamed and unmentioned ghost writer, therefore one that is entirely theoretical.

[RainOfSteel]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Keep posting, keep posting!

Are you enemy of Ninja?

The day I killed the entire party before the first combat encounter.

[Kalinda]

Myself and baby jesus weep for the fact this thread is still going

I hear tell that every-time someone posts here, god kills a ninja.

Keep posting, keep posting!

Are you enemy of Ninja?

The day I killed the entire party before the first combat encounter.

Read that before, it was wrong then and it's wrong now. Worst. Players. Ever.

[RainOfSteel]

Read that before, it was wrong then and it's wrong now. Worst. Players. Ever.

And yet, it is still funny, in a sickening sort of way.

[Dr. Doom III]

Pg, 137 Rifts Main Book

"Without a doubt, it (Traversing Our Modern World) is the most accurate and inclusive journal/atlas of the Rifts world available on the black market. Unfortunately, that is not saying much, as even the intrepid historian Tarn has vast gaps in her knowledge of the world. It is this lack of complete knowledge that made her refuse to write the volume herself, or personally endorse the much sought after publication."

There you go. In black and white.
It was never meant to be 100% accurate.