Is the Judeo-Christian God mentioned in Rifts?

[Kalinda]

I've never seen any mention of the J/C god in the Rifts books, probably for the reasons Lynx outlined.

[RainOfSteel]

Yeah, I can see quite a few people being offended beginning with the completion of the following line of the NPC description

Alignment: .....

Then, they'd be offended that it was a description of an NPC.

(I can imagine a group of modern youth in India, sitting around role-playing, and having <name-deleted> written up as an NPC, and battling it out hand to hand with Brahma, etc.)

[Mudang]

also it doesnt even have a name so what would you call it?

Yahweh?

[Kalinda]

Yeah, I can see quite a few people being offended beginning with the completion of the following line of the NPC description

Alignment: .....

Then, they'd be offended that it was a description of an NPC.

(I can imagine a group of modern youth in India, sitting around role-playing, and having <name-deleted> written up as an NPC, and battling it out hand to hand with Brahma, etc.)

Yeah, but somehow those gods and their worshipers don't count.

Homer Simpson: "God was punishing me!"

Reverend lovejoy: "No, but he was working in the hearts of your friends and neighbors when they went to your aid, be they Christian, Jew, or Miscellaneous."

Apu: "Hindu, There ARE nine hundred million of us!"

Lovejoy: "ah, that's super"

[Nightshade37]

There is some mention of the J/C God and such in New West, I believe. Whatever book has the preacher OCC's.

[The Galactus Kid]

Also, Mystic Russia has the Catholic Priest. Conversion book 2 discusses the possibility of a supreme being such as the traditional Judeo-Christian God. yaweh does illustrate some human traits and characteristics, but is also seen as being infallible, omnipresent, and omnipresent. check those out.

[Tricky]

I used to say "Game Developers stay away from deities from current religions to avoid offending people."

But the Persian, Hindu and possibly the Native American gods all have worshipers, so I guess that shoots that theory out of the water.

But, seriously, would the Judeo-Christian God fit in Any RPG? Or the God of Islam? How do you stat out infallable and omnipotent?

Now, here is the trippy part: 1,000 years from now, people (or intelligent roaches) will be playing RPG's, possibly based on our time period. And they WILL be playing characters based on our religions:
"My Scientologist Movie star attempts to convert your Jihadist Cleric; roll your faith score -2 to see if your faith holds up to my Dogma!"

[Daniel Stoker]

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, we don't have some sort of Hive Mind and share skills and backgrounds! There could be no one or even dozen O.C.C.'s that could or should cover the Jewish People.

And as to your original question they sort of touched on it with the New West Preacher and the Russion Orthodox Priest in the Russia books.



Daniel Stoker

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Personally I think that Palladium should have done it in Pantheons. It would make a great pantheon. The Holy Trinity would make a good start on the Good side, with the 12 apostles as minor deities/demi-gods, Then you have The Devil and his minions as the Evil side. But of course Kev will NEVER EVER do it, just like the Middle East which I think would make a fantastic world book. IMHO they are two massive ommissions from the Rifts world that shouldn't be passed over because some people will be offended (not that I would want to offend any one, I just think that a lot of the stuff already printed is no more or less offensive than they would be), especially with the warnings and discalimers that are in every book, partculary the one in pantheons. I guess Kev's fear of litigation holds back some potentially wonderful game resources, A crying shame really, but one I understand.

As an aside I have made up stuff for both the Christian Pantheon and the Middle East in my games and my players love em, and one is a such devout christian that we can't play on Sunday if we want him in the game (he's intelligent enough to realise it's just a game).

[Warwolf]

Now, here is the trippy part: 1,000 years from now, people (or intelligent roaches) will be playing RPG's, possibly based on our time period. And they WILL be playing characters based on our religions:
"My Scientologist Movie star attempts to convert your Jihadist Cleric; roll your faith score -2 to see if your faith holds up to my Dogma!"

*Cringes* Ouch! Something in the back of my brain just popped. I'm gonna go home now...

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

This is not only touchy but pure plutonium!

If you are a believer, and use this kind of thing it puts you into a position that theologically you don't want to be in: Putting words in G*ds mouth, taking actions as him, the whole enchilada of things that leave you roasting in hell for eternity.

Too true, but then again some fundamentalists will cast you to the depths of hell just for playing RPGs. Unfortunatly in these cases people tend to err on the side of caution rather than p*** 'em off, which is probably the sensible course, I just think that there are ways to avoid those kind of mistakes, using Angels and the like for example.

[Spectre]

Time to throw my $0.02 into the mix.
The Christian god has not had anything done because it would upset so many people who fail to realize that...IT IS A GAME! It is ment to be fiction based in some samll reality. Many people take offense when you fictionalize something they hold true. What I don't understand is why don't these people go attack books, they do this very thing all the time.
I, myself, am a christian and i think it would be cool to have some of the thing i know thrown into Rifts. (Try Joshua leading the forces of good against deamons in the Middle East as a game sometime.) I have been working on character classes based on christian and jewish concepts specifically for the Middle East.
I will also say the the theme of an all powerful God over everything can be seen in other religions other that Judaism and Christianity. Hinduism has an god above all the others. Shamanistic cultures revere nature as one supreme but also having many aspects.
God has a sense of humor and he probably won't send you to hell for including him in something

[Jack Daniels]

too many people would complain because for some reason its ok for other religions gods to be called fictional through the term Mythology but its not ok for this one

plus the only source of him is the bible which shows him as opnipitant(sp?) and According to the game mechanics no god/goddess can be this way and we go back to people complaining

God is not omnipotent, even in the New Testament. In the Old Testament he is quite limited.
Of course, if you read the Bible without any historical reference at all, and assume that His Majesty James was spoken to by God itself as he created his translation from Latin, then it's easy to come to the omnipotence conclusion. But that's like believing the salesman's pitch without checking the Consumer's Reports. Now before I get flamed on this I'm not saying anything about the validity of Christian beliefs. I'm just saying that the King James, and any other English language Bible, is NOT the word of God, because English didn't exist when the various parts of the Bible were written. Something of the original is ALWAYS lost in translations, and there have been many translations for that particular book.
That aside, I think God could be assigned stats, and could be called Yahweh, cause that's what the ancient Hebrew called their god. You could do something interesting and say that Yahweh used to be Anarchist, and moved towards Principled or Scrupulus during the 20th Century. There would be bad blood between Yahweh and several other Gods, Ishtar being a prime example since her temples are explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
I also understand why Palladium, being a fairly conservative business, will probably never attempt something like this. Check this site for an interesting idea regarding Christian mythology; http://members.tripod.com/~SirTenzan/RI ... ggods.html

[Tinker Dragoon]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

The Judeo-Christian God is not given much attention in Rifts, both to avoid offending people and because it's impossible to stat out a being who transcends human comprehension. Pantheons of the Megaverse gices passing attention to the matter and gives a few pointers, but that's it. God as such is considered a GM's Plot Device, to use or ignore as desired.

There's no reason you can't have fun with your own ideas though.

[cornholioprime]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

The Judeo-Christian God is not given much attention in Rifts, both to avoid offending people and because it's impossible to stat out a being who transcends human comprehension. Pantheons of the Megaverse gices passing attention to the matter and gives a few pointers, but that's it. God as such is considered a GM's Plot Device, to use or ignore as desired.

There's no reason you can't have fun with your own ideas though.

Besides:

Gods who are all Powerful: excellent for "butt-kicking for Goodness!!"

...but bad (read: incredibly boring) for Roleplaying.

Besides, it's almost definitely a "regional" thing.

For example, there's NO WAY that Squaresoft will market the Final Fantasy Series in, say, India, with the relatively weak, feminine Esper/Aeon/Summoned Monster Shiva. At the same time, who knows?? Maybe in Final Fantasy: India Edition, they turn the tables on the West and there's a YHWH or Iblis Aeon that Yuna can summon....

In much of Asia, Western Gods (and Forces of Evil) are treated as "mythology" all the time.....

[SkyeFyre]

I myself am a christian and I'd say I'm glad actually that He hasn't been put into a book. In my games He either doesn't exist, is a power beyond even the Old Ones but refrains from any direct action due to such power, or it's the GM. The one power that controls everything, the GM. Think about it, writing the very rules of physics, ruling who lives and who dies. That's just how I play it. I wouldn't be crazily offended if He were statted out, I just wouldn't consider it the "true" God (copycat...etc), or something like that. I can accept it as just a game. That's how it is. I realize though that some don't agree with that view and I can respect that.

Now before I get any comments, I feel that way about all of the gods in the books.

I can't remember where I read it but somewhere I remember reading KS saying something about how the term god in the game were used loosely. It was kind of like a category. Creatures that are so powerful they are regarded as gods.

That kinda helped me with the acceptance a bit.

[cornholioprime]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

The Judeo-Christian God is not given much attention in Rifts, both to avoid offending people and because it's impossible to stat out a being who transcends human comprehension. Pantheons of the Megaverse gices passing attention to the matter and gives a few pointers, but that's it. God as such is considered a GM's Plot Device, to use or ignore as desired.

There's no reason you can't have fun with your own ideas though.

Besides:

Gods who are all Powerful: excellent for "butt-kicking for Goodness!!"

...but bad (read: incredibly boring) for Roleplaying.

Besides, it's almost definitely a "regional" thing.

For example, there's NO WAY that Squaresoft will market the Final Fantasy Series in, say, India, with the relatively weak, feminine Esper/Aeon/Summoned Monster Shiva. At the same time, who knows?? Maybe in Final Fantasy: India Edition, they turn the tables on the West and there's a YHWH or Iblis Aeon that Yuna can summon....

In much of Asia, Western Gods (and Forces of Evil) are treated as "mythology" all the time.....

but yet... they do, in fact, market Final Fantasy in India. Advent Children is being made there actually.... or at least a big chunk of the dirty work...

How much Cash money would you like to bet that what we know as "Shiva" here, is NOT called Shiva there???

It's kinda like Mr. Satan (aka "Hercule") and Gohan's 666-Mobile being carefully omitted from Dragon Ball Z when it was produced for this Market.......

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

The Judeo-Christian God is not given much attention in Rifts, both to avoid offending people and because it's impossible to stat out a being who transcends human comprehension. Pantheons of the Megaverse gices passing attention to the matter and gives a few pointers, but that's it. God as such is considered a GM's Plot Device, to use or ignore as desired.

There's no reason you can't have fun with your own ideas though.

Besides:

Gods who are all Powerful: excellent for "butt-kicking for Goodness!!"

...but bad (read: incredibly boring) for Roleplaying.

Besides, it's almost definitely a "regional" thing.

For example, there's NO WAY that Squaresoft will market the Final Fantasy Series in, say, India, with the relatively weak, feminine Esper/Aeon/Summoned Monster Shiva. At the same time, who knows?? Maybe in Final Fantasy: India Edition, they turn the tables on the West and there's a YHWH or Iblis Aeon that Yuna can summon....

In much of Asia, Western Gods (and Forces of Evil) are treated as "mythology" all the time.....

but yet... they do, in fact, market Final Fantasy in India. Advent Children is being made there actually.... or at least a big chunk of the dirty work...

How much Cash money would you like to bet that what we know as "Shiva" here, is NOT called Shiva there???

It's kinda like Mr. Satan (aka "Hercule") and Gohan's 666-Mobile being carefully omitted from Dragon Ball Z when it was produced for this Market.......

Ahhh you gotta love political/religious correctness for ruining a good story

[Tinker Dragoon]

For example, there's NO WAY that Squaresoft will market the Final Fantasy Series in, say, India, with the relatively weak, feminine Esper/Aeon/Summoned Monster Shiva. At the same time, who knows?? Maybe in Final Fantasy: India Edition, they turn the tables on the West and there's a YHWH or Iblis Aeon that Yuna can summon....

Just a side note: The mythological basis for Final Fantasy's Shiva is actually more likely to have been the Slavic fertility goddess, Siwa or Ziva. I still don't know how the whole ice theme fits in though...

[Zer0 Kay]

too many people would complain because for some reason its ok for other religions gods to be called fictional through the term Mythology but its not ok for this one

plus the only source of him is the bible which shows him as opnipitant(sp?) and According to the game mechanics no god/goddess can be this way and we go back to people complaining

also according to game mechanics gods can die and since the judeo-cristain bible only has one god if he/she/it kicks the bucket thats all she wrote no more "God" and we go back to people complaining

also it doesnt even have a name so what would you call it?

in the end its too contrversial for PB to do this and are better off not doing so hell RPGs are already considered evil as it is by some people why add fuel to their fires?

Lynx

Anywhere in the bible that has LORD (all in caps) replaces YHWH which essentially (if memory serves) is the name of God but only mean 'I am'.

[Zer0 Kay]

[MODERATED. Please confine this discussion to Rifts. ~ Thanks, Mack}

[Zer0 Kay]

I used to say "Game Developers stay away from deities from current religions to avoid offending people."

But the Persian, Hindu and possibly the Native American gods all have worshipers, so I guess that shoots that theory out of the water.

But, seriously, would the Judeo-Christian God fit in Any RPG? Or the God of Islam? How do you stat out infallable and omnipotent?

Now, here is the trippy part: 1,000 years from now, people (or intelligent roaches) will be playing RPG's, possibly based on our time period. And they WILL be playing characters based on our religions:
"My Scientologist Movie star attempts to convert your Jihadist Cleric; roll your faith score -2 to see if your faith holds up to my Dogma!"

Ah ha!! I play my Karma card and it runs over your Dogma!!

Don't forget Wiccans worship the Goddess which has incarnations in almost all religions

[Zer0 Kay]

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, we don't have some sort of Hive Mind and share skills and backgrounds! There could be no one or even dozen O.C.C.'s that could or should cover the Jewish People.

And as to your original question they sort of touched on it with the New West Preacher and the Russion Orthodox Priest in the Russia books.



Daniel Stoker

The Kabalist?

[Zer0 Kay]

Personally I think that Palladium should have done it in Pantheons. It would make a great pantheon. The Holy Trinity would make a good start on the Good side, with the 12 apostles as minor deities/demi-gods, Then you have The Devil and his minions as the Evil side. But of course Kev will NEVER EVER do it, just like the Middle East which I think would make a fantastic world book. IMHO they are two massive ommissions from the Rifts world that shouldn't be passed over because some people will be offended (not that I would want to offend any one, I just think that a lot of the stuff already printed is no more or less offensive than they would be), especially with the warnings and discalimers that are in every book, partculary the one in pantheons. I guess Kev's fear of litigation holds back some potentially wonderful game resources, A crying shame really, but one I understand.

As an aside I have made up stuff for both the Christian Pantheon and the Middle East in my games and my players love em, and one is a such devout christian that we can't play on Sunday if we want him in the game (he's intelligent enough to realise it's just a game).

How are the apostles demi-gods?There would be God and his Avatar JC. Which denomination of Christianity would be right?

[Zer0 Kay]

I think the greek/roman ones are around, and there's plenty of demons.

I think it could make for some neat rifts story arcs and concepts (or are they already around?)

Like believers would say the rifts are evidence of Judgement day coming.
Or it could just be the coming of a few angels onto rifts Earth. Organize them as Angels, Archangels, Powers, Principalities, Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, etc. They could go about destroying demons and psychics/mages('cause they're witches)

you could add the O.C.C. the Chosen people (jewish)


Has this been done already in a Rifts sourcebook, or is Christianity just too touchy to mention?

This is not only touchy but pure plutonium!

If you are a believer, and use this kind of thing it puts you into a position that theologically you don't want to be in: Putting words in G*ds mouth, taking actions as him, the whole enchilada of things that leave you roasting in hell for eternity.

Heck why not everyone has already watched a mortal act as Christ. Many have created graven images, not even thinking about it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Time to throw my $0.02 into the mix.
The Christian god has not had anything done because it would upset so many people who fail to realize that...IT IS A GAME! It is ment to be fiction based in some samll reality. Many people take offense when you fictionalize something they hold true. What I don't understand is why don't these people go attack books, they do this very thing all the time.
I, myself, am a christian and i think it would be cool to have some of the thing i know thrown into Rifts. (Try Joshua leading the forces of good against deamons in the Middle East as a game sometime.) I have been working on character classes based on christian and jewish concepts specifically for the Middle East.
I will also say the the theme of an all powerful God over everything can be seen in other religions other that Judaism and Christianity. Hinduism has an god above all the others. Shamanistic cultures revere nature as one supreme but also having many aspects.
God has a sense of humor and he probably won't send you to hell for including him in something

So as a Christian you are ignoring that the Hindi in India, the Wiccan the world around the Shinto in the far East and the Native American of both North and South America may find it insulting, or your saying that PB thinks thier more intelligent.

[Zer0 Kay]

hm.. ok.. before this gets locked up for offending someone (I'm thick skinned, but not everyone here is):

To summarize on topic

Yes. The God of the New Testament and the Hebrew Bible is mentioned passingly in Rifts as posted previously (Preacher in New West, Catholic Priest OCC in Russia, although IMO, the Russian Orthodox would likely take exception to that being the "norm" for clerical figures in that area of the world, even POST apocalypse! )

As for the effect of God on a campaign, if you want to run with a "Revelations" type theme, go for it. Some other Biblical adventure ideas have been tossed around as well.

Maybe running across a random crate in an old US Army warehouse with a nifty gold box in it? anyone?

As long as you and your players can deal with serious religious themes, it's all good.

Who says it was an army warehouse? That was the X-files Who says it has to be serious anyway. After all Buddy Jesus says it's OK!!

[Warwolf]

So as a Christian you are ignoring that the Hindi in India, the Wiccan the world around the Shinto in the far East and the Native American of both North and South America may find it insulting, or your saying that PB thinks thier more intelligent.

No, Zero, I don't believe that he was saying that at all and I consider that accusation to be unfair. He was simply stating that he would like to see the Judeo-Christian faith and culture portrayed to a greater extent in the game. He was also stating the fact that it isn't JUST Judaism or Christianity that holds the concept of an all-powerful or "creator" god. As a matter of fact, it is a commonality shared by the likes of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Druidism, Bahai, multiple tribal religions world-wide, and many others (wonder where you got this bit from Spectre? ). I would think that if anything, having their gods reduced to beings that are considered gods would upset them. The fact is that Rifts is a game, and none of it should really offend those of any of the faiths detailed within. However, these days it always seems that someone is offended by something. When attempting to portray religion, it especially easy to do so.

If he's infallible why did he create so many faulty creations? If humans are the only creation with free will and God is THE FIRST who created everything else then how did Satan turn on him? If Satan doesn't have free will then that means he's acting on the instruction of God...

This post has the nasty potential for turning a simple question-based thread into a possible religious debate (something that never seems to end well around here). If I were you I'd go back and edit it a little.

However, I will state this. If we humans have free will then it is impossible for our creator to be omnipotent. For if the creator knew exactly what the creations were going to do, then it would be considered pre-destination (the opposite of free will).

[Natalya]

Please limit the religious discussion to game context only, please. Thank you.

[Zer0 Kay]

[MODERATED - When the lady says drop the subject, she means drop the subject. ~ Mack]

Now... how would a thread on weather or not the Judeo-Christian God is mentioned in Rifts be able to go on past a Yes or a No, without dealing with religious discussion?

[Uncle Servo]

Religious sensitivity aside, the way I see it there's also another problem with including God in Rifts as an NPC like you see in Rifts: Pantheons -- how often does He physically mingle with mortals?

While I'm certainly not an expert on other religions/mythologies, I do know there are plenty of Greek and Norse stories where those gods walked among men/women quite a bit.

In most Bible stories that I've read, God's physical role is limited to manifestations of His power (burning bush, pillar of flame, etc.) and the vast majority of the legwork is done by prophets/judges/priests/apostles/etc. I'm not saying He never made an appearance, but there's not nearly as much reference material as there would be for others and therefore would make it difficult to 'stat out' as an NPC.

Personally speaking, I think Palladium took more or less the best option here -- focusing more on the earthly followers such as the Preacher/Orthodox Priest (and to a lesser degree the Priest OCC from Pantheons and some of the holy OCCs from Wormwood) and less on the deity Himself. Any miracles/divine power manifestations can be added as deemed necessary (and appropriate) via GM fiat.








On a semi-related note... it's my understanding that the God in Islam is the same as the one in the Jewish and Christian faiths (Islam traces its heritage to Abraham through Ishmael and not through Isaac). If that's indeed the case, does anyone else find it odd that God is referenced only as the "Judeo-Christian" God and not the "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" one?

[Mudang]

He was also stating the fact that it isn't JUST Judaism or Christianity that holds the concept of an all-powerful or "creator" god. As a matter of fact, it is a commonality shared by the likes of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Druidism, Bahai, multiple tribal religions world-wide, and many others (wonder where you got this bit from Spectre? ).

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm fairly certain that the forces of good and evil are equals (and thus one cannot be all powerful) in the Zoroastrian faith.

EDIT: I just noticed that the two major powers of Zoroastrianism are in CB2.

EDIT2: Palladium apparently did not include the orthodox Zoroastrian beliefs, but the beliefs of a now nonexistant sect known as the Zurvanites which did in fact believe in a single supreme god.

EDIT3: Palladium didn't stay true to Zurvanism either. Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu were not cast aside. Angra Mainyu was the first born and was promised the material world, while Ahura Mazda was made first among the priests and promised the spiritual world and the "final victory."

[sHaka]

.... don't forget the muslim in Mercenaries - Forget which company, can't be bothered to look.

I persoanlly don't see the problem with the christian God being recognised and worshiped in Rifts earth - this doesn't mean you have to stat him/her/it out - it's a belief, a way of life as much as anything. You can't reduce the maker of the universe into numbers and bonuses, if that's what God is. It's not hard to think of God as something which transcends even the infinite megaverse.

I personally treat the Rifts 'gods' more like alien intelligences rather than deities - providing their stats sets out their limits. Something i don't think could apply to god.

I'm agnostic by the way.

[Daniel Stoker]

On a semi-related note... it's my understanding that the God in Islam is the same as the one in the Jewish and Christian faiths (Islam traces its heritage to Abraham through Ishmael and not through Isaac). If that's indeed the case, does anyone else find it odd that God is referenced only as the "Judeo-Christian" God and not the "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" one?

It is if you ask the Muslims, but since the Muslim faith came after the Christian faith they don't refrence it. Sort of like to Jews it's not the Judeo-Christian faith, but the Jewish faith and the Christian faith.



Daniel Stoker

[Spectre]

Could be the fact that we had this same discussion.
Okay time to back my $0.02 with a $1.

I was NOT saying that i am ignoring whether they would be insulted or not. I am not a part of those faiths and thus I have no room to say that they would be insulted on way or another. I was simply stated that the Christian, Jewish, Islamic god and followers are underrepresented.

Another note, The Judeo-Chritian God does have a true name. The Yahweh, Lord, I AM, Jehovah, etc... are all substitutions for this name. It was written down originally (i have seen peices of the early texts. That was a cool experience ) Any hoo, his name is/was so revered that it was not spoken, and NO I WILL NOT WRITE IT HERE, so dont ask.

[kdyal]

also it doesnt even have a name so what would you call it?

in the end its too contrversial for PB to do this and are better off not doing so hell RPGs are already considered evil as it is by some people why add fuel to their fires?

Lynx

I agree that God/Jesus would be too messy to introduce into an RPG...

But He does have a name: Yahweh (some would transliterate it as Jehovah). It roughly means, "I AM"...

[kdyal]

'Cause it's the least damaging thing to answer, and one of the first noticed.

[grandmaster z0b]

I can understand why PB wont put a christian God into their work (at least stat wise) but that doesn't mean that you cannot use the religions themselves.

In the same vein I did think it was a little insulting to stat out the Hindu gods, as it is one of the worlds' main religious beliefs.

Even this could be used to good roleplaying effect though, if there were a muslim, a christian and a hindu in a game (no it's not the start of a joke) and the Hindu saw a fully stated out Krishna standing there they could well argue that there religion was obviusly true as there was one of their gods standing there in the flesh, whereas the christian and the muslim would say that because their's is the true creator god that they would never physically manifest and that the Hindu god's were just powerful entities.

Leads to good in game religious discussion without really stepping on too many peoples' toes.

On the other hand you could stat out Jesus and God but leave it open as to whether they are the "real" creator god or just another AI pretending to be that god.

Oh and I thought I would just mention that Muslims do consider Allah to be the same god as that of the Jews and Christians. They believe in Moses and David and believe that Christ to be a divinely inspired man and not the son of god.

[Qev]

I'm just offended that Palladium didn't include the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either!

[The Galactus Kid]

AVOID THIS THREAD AT ALL COSTS!!!

hahaha

I have very strong opinions on this topic but I will not chime in anymore than I have since this type of conversation tends to get people in trouble with mods and admins.

[grandmaster z0b]

I'm just offended that Palladium didn't include the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either!

Maybe I should start a thread of Flying Spagetti Monster vs. Splynncryth

That's one of the worst things, if we stated out God, then we could have endless CS vs. God, or LOTD vs. God threads.

[Kalinda]

I'm just offended that Palladium didn't include the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either!

Maybe I should start a thread of Flying Spagetti Monster vs. Splynncryth

That's one of the worst things, if we stated out God, then we could have endless CS vs. God, or LOTD vs. God threads.

Plus if we gave God stats, thirty seconds later some group of PCs would kill him...

[grandmaster z0b]

Actually I read about Endid(God) who created Adam and Eve, and Enki who was the serpent. So the name of the Jeudo-Christian God would be Endid. Ofcourse I heard Sananda(Jesus) was as well. Then there was Lucifer who introduced technology to the humans who at the time didn't need it, to change the way humans looked at thier "master/s". I don't know whats what anymore. So I say forget them all and just worship your self, at least thats the only thing one can confirm the existence and importance of. Self love anyone?

Out of curiosity where did you hear that from?

[Uncle Servo]

On a semi-related note... it's my understanding that the God in Islam is the same as the one in the Jewish and Christian faiths (Islam traces its heritage to Abraham through Ishmael and not through Isaac). If that's indeed the case, does anyone else find it odd that God is referenced only as the "Judeo-Christian" God and not the "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" one?

It is if you ask the Muslims, but since the Muslim faith came after the Christian faith they don't refrence it. Sort of like to Jews it's not the Judeo-Christian faith, but the Jewish faith and the Christian faith.

I can understand that... I expect each faith to go a little bit 'home team' and not include other faiths with theirs.

What I'm talking about though is how in mainstream (non-religious-specific) circles you hear "Judeo-Christian" but not "Judeo-Christian-Islamic." I just find it odd that I never hear it mentioned that way -- it's as if Islam is that younger brother the family doesn't like to talk about. *shrugs*

[Jack Daniels]

What I'm talking about though is how in mainstream (non-religious-specific) circles you hear "Judeo-Christian" but not "Judeo-Christian-Islamic." I just find it odd that I never hear it mentioned that way -- it's as if Islam is that younger brother the family doesn't like to talk about. *shrugs*

Because in those circles that you, I , and most of the people on this board hear from, the people are predominantly non-Muslim. In the rare instances where I've heard a legitimate discussion, with a legitimate Islamic participant, I have heard that exact phrase used. It's just that that situation does not happen any more often than blue moons.
Also the younger brother analogy would be more accurate if you called it an illegitimate younger brother. Most of our heartland Christians think that Islam is a religion of death that has nothing in common with the beliefs they hold.

[Zer0 Kay]

I can understand why PB wont put a christian God into their work (at least stat wise) but that doesn't mean that you cannot use the religions themselves.

In the same vein I did think it was a little insulting to stat out the Hindu gods, as it is one of the worlds' main religious beliefs.

Even this could be used to good roleplaying effect though, if there were a muslim, a christian and a hindu in a game (no it's not the start of a joke) and the Hindu saw a fully stated out Krishna standing there they could well argue that there religion was obviusly true as there was one of their gods standing there in the flesh, whereas the christian and the muslim would say that because their's is the true creator god that they would never physically manifest and that the Hindu god's were just powerful entities.

Leads to good in game religious discussion without really stepping on too many peoples' toes.

On the other hand you could stat out Jesus and God but leave it open as to whether they are the "real" creator god or just another AI pretending to be that god.

Oh and I thought I would just mention that Muslims do consider Allah to be the same god as that of the Jews and Christians. They believe in Moses and David and believe that Christ to be a divinely inspired man and not the son of god.

I mite get in trouble again for saying this but your right. Islamic/Christian/Jewish God is the same Islam descends from Abraham's first child Jews descend from Abraham's second child and Christians are followers of Gods only child. Or so the religions claim. now I await my punishment for confirming someone elses post.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm just offended that Palladium didn't include the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either!

YOU HEATHEN how dare you go against the might of the Floating Anti-Pasta Solid Beast (Antipasto Salad)

[Natalya]

Okay, this topic has (again) strayed from an RPG-related discussion into debating religion. As this is the Rifts board, please try and keep things in a Rifts context. Thank you.

[dark brandon]

I'm just gonna copy and paste a responce I had from another folder here, cause I don't feel like typieing it out again. Same basic answer for the question though.

You have to understand, mostly, the Abrahamic God has followers that have an almost insane passion IRL. This means if you mention it, you may draw their fire, even if you pose him in a favorable light since, it is an RPG and RPG's are evil by nature (Ah, Jack Chick, you are wise indeed).

....

You're allowed to be angry all you want, but you have to realize, they pretty much brought this on themselves. In essense, the only one's to blame for a lack of Abrahamic gods in many RPG's are the followers themselves.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm just offended that Palladium didn't include the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either!

YOU HEATHEN how dare you go against the might of the Floating Anti-Pasta Solid Beast (Antipasto Salad)

he's not that mighty if you have a pasta salad cannon

pasta+antipasta=BOOM

Exactly so if the Anti-Pasta Solid Beast fought with the Flying Spaghetti Monster all creation would be destroyed.