keir451 wrote:Gods be cursed quote limit!!!! Any hoo, I actually don't have a problem w/ frequent deaths in my games, as in it actually doesn't happen, my players are sneaky, conniving geniuses in the way they handle their characters and tho' they may get hit they (some how) get even better dice rolls in the face of danger (no cheating either). It seems you've lost that wager, Sir!! I guess youse gotta pay up now. How many creds was that?
Sounds like the survive by luck more than anything else.
If you take what you are saying about how you do damage, average rolls etc would lead to relatively frequent player deaths. The fact as you said they SOMEHOW survive is a luck related issue not a rules one
Luck is part of the game, but my guys are good at using tactics too, but only the tanks get that increase as that is how I veiw the tanks in Rifts. Also they don't encounter/use tanks that often.
Well aside from that you and I are already know we are of differeing opnions on the combat system as it is so...
Yup, Yup and I respect and apreciate those differences as they help me to further refine my game.
Et tu mon ami
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:02 am
by slade the sniper
House rules:
Spoiler:
Damage Classes There are five damage classes used in this game in varying rarity. The first is known as Light Damage Capacity and is abbreviated LDC. The second is known as Standard Damage Capacity and is used for over 90% of all combat and is abbreviated DC. Vehicular Damage Capacity is equal to 10 DC and is used for Vehicular Combat and may be used as shorthand for some types of combat, usually vehicular, hence it’s name. The third class of damage is known as Heavy Damage and is used for very tough and hearty machines and beings such as tanks and avatars. 1 HDC is equal to 100 DC or 10 VDC. The fifth class is known as Ultra Damage and is equivalent to 1000 HDC and is primarily used for nuclear weapons and deities. Below is a chart that shows the correlation of these classes of damage to each other.
Damage class is an exceptionally important concept in the game, since each damage class effectively makes itself immune to lower class weapons.
This is vitally important for vehicles and non-organic items. For instance, an object with 2 VDC and a stopping power of 5 becomes IMMUNE to all damage below 15 SDC…first it has 5 Stopping Power which means that any damage or five or less can not damage it, and the fact that the object is Vehicular Damage means that it can not be damaged by anything less than 10 SDC in a single blow. Therefore, this object with a paltry 5 SP and a mere 2 VDC is actually immune (for all intents and purposes) to all one handed melee weapons wielded by humans, 90% of two handed weapons, most pistols and about half of submachineguns.
The SP represents the ability of the weapon to shrug off damage while the damage class represents the ability of the object to resist the effects of penetrating damage. Thus, even though a weapon does 14 damage to the object, all that happens is there is now a hole in it (SP was exceeded = hole, but not more than 10 SDC penetrated to do 1 VD, thus no damage of any effect occurred).
Please note that if a weapon has a damage rating and is not followed by damage class, assume that it means Standard Damage Class.
To assign Damage Classes to objects the following guidelines apply: For unarmed Melee Damage, use LDC For armed Melee Damage, use SDC For most portable weapons use SDC For most vehicles use VDC For objects with over 100 DC convert to VDC For objects with over 10,000 DC use HDC For objects with 100 SP use HDC (rare)
Designers Note Since the concept of “damage” in a role playing game is by necessity both approximate and simplified. To use real world equivalents 1 point of “damage capacity” is approximately 1 inch of penetration in organic material (flesh), 1 millimeter of penetration in iron and .5mm penetration in rolled homogenous armor plate.
Stopping Power: Stopping Power is a function of density and thickness. Some beings, due to thick hide, extraterrestrial biology or magic possess stopping power, but most do not.
Below is a partial list of construction materials and armor, and the Stopping Powers that they provide.
It must be noted that these values are derived from the average ability to stop a variety of attack forms. Although it is possible to list each material and it's resistance to each type of attack such as penetrating, thermal, impact, cutting and electrical, the combat sequence would slow down dramatically thus diminishing the dramatic effect of combat. These values represent the best compromise between reality and simplicity possible.
Example SP/DC per inch Padded armor 1 Glass 1/inch Paper 1/inch Rope 1/inch Thick padded armor 2 Thin leather armor 2 Plastic, soft 2/inch Ceramic 2/inch Ice 2/inch Metal sheeting 3 Studded leather armor 3 Unarmored car (Class 0) 3 Plastic, hard 3/inch Heavy studded leather armor 4 Chainmail 5 Bronze cuirass 5 Splint mail 6 Wood 7/inch Aluminum 8/inch Heavy chain mail 6 Steel cuirass 7 Light plate armor 8 Concrete 8/inch Field plate armor 9 Plate armor 10 Class I personal ballistic armor 10 Class II-A personal ballistic armor 12 Super Light Armored Vehicle (Class I-A) 10 Concrete/Masonry 12/inch Class II personal ballistic armor 14 Stone 15/inch Class IIIA personal ballistic armor (soft) 16 Class III personal ballistic armor (hard) 20 Very lightly armored vehicle (Class I) 20 Class VI personal ballistic armor (hard) 50 Iron 20/inch lightly armored vehicle (Class II-A) 30 light/medium armored vehicle (Class II) 40 Medium armored vehicle (Class III-A) 50 medium/heavy armored vehicle (Class III) 60 heavy armored vehicle (Class IV-A) 70 very heavy armored vehicle (Class IV) 80 super heavy armored vehicle (Class V-A) 90 ultra heavy armored vehicle (Class V) 100
When using the above table for determining the cover value of an object, remember that the SP refers to the damage that is needed to penetrate one side of an object in order to inflict damage to the interior of the object. When an object is being used as cover, the damage must penetrate TWO sides of an object in order to damage what is on the far side of the intervening cover. This means that SP is multiplied by TWO when determining the Cover Value.
Armor Coverage: As an optional rule, you may roll to determine if the armor worn by a target has been effective in intercepting an attack.
To determine the amount of surface area covered by armor use the following: Area Covered % protection Head (NOT incl. face) 4% Face 4% Neck 1% Chest 9% Back 9% Abdomen 9% Lower Back 9% Groin 1% Upper Arm 4% each Lower Arm 4% each Hands 1% each Upper Leg 9% each Lower Leg 8% each Foot 1% each
Total Body 100%
Now then add all of it up and that is the percentage of the body protected by armor.
To determine if the armor was hit, the attacker rolls a D00 (without any skill modifiers, this is NOT the same as a called shot/attack). If the result of the D00 is LESS than the amount of % covered, the attack hits the armor and damage is resolved normally. If the result of the D00 is GREATER than the amount of % covered, the armor did not intercept the attack and damage is resolved normally.
Please note that some weapons do area damage (such as fire, explosives, etc.) and if the body is not 100% covered, then they target will very likely take damage regardless.
Blunt Force Trauma: Blunt force trauma is a type of damage that occurs even when armor is able to stop an attack from penetrating. The force of the impact travels through the armor and affects the character wearing the armor. Each weapon has a Blunt Trauma Modifier (BTM). For every multiple of the BTM, one point of damage is taken by the character wearing the armor, regardless of whether the damage actually penetrated or not. This is one reason why impact weapons are so effective against armored characters.
Staged Penetration: Every time that an attack physically penetrates armor, it weakens. To simulate this, every time an attack penetrates armor, the armor loses 1 SP.
Armor Piercing Attacks: Some weapons do armor piercing attacks. An armor piercing attack cuts the SP of any armor in ½ (sometimes 1/4). There are two types of armor piercing attacks, attenuating and non attenuating. Attenuating attacks cut the penetrating damage by ½, non attenuating attacks do not. For example, a knife is a non attenuating AP weapon. It makes its attacks against only ½ the SP of any armor and the penetrating damage is the remainder.
An armor piercing bullet however, is an attenuating AP attack. It makes its attack and only ½ the targets SP applies. The penetrating damage is also halved.
Falling A being takes 1d6 + 1/10 SIZ damage per ten feet fallen. This is not jumping or rolling or even tripping. This is falling on your head or your face or something similar. Jumping 10 feet, feet first will cause 1 damage. The fall itself counts as an attack with a 100% chance of hitting. A character with Tumbling or some other skill can attempt to roll with the fall to take ½ damage if they roll under the "attack". If the attack roll is 10% or less, then it is a critical fall and does double damage!
Falling damage will max out at approximately 570m for humans.
Feet fallen Damage 10 1d6+1/10 SIZ 20 2d6+1/10 SIZ 30 2d6+1/10 SIZ 40 3d6+1/10 SIZ 50 3d6+1/10 SIZ 60 4d6+1/10 SIZ 70 4d6+1/10 SIZ 80 5d6+1/10 SIZ 90 5d6+1/10 SIZ 100 5d6+1/10 SIZ 200 6d6+1/10 SIZ 300 6d6+1/10 SIZ 400 7d6+1/10 SIZ 500 7d6+1/10 SIZ 600 8d6+1/10 SIZ 700 8d6+1/10 SIZ 800 9d6+1/10 SIZ 900 9d6+1/10 SIZ 1000 9d6+1/10 SIZ 1100 10d6+1/10 SIZ 1200 10d6+1/10 SIZ 1300 10d6+1/10 SIZ 1400 11d6+1/10 SIZ 1500 11d6+1/10 SIZ 1600 11d6+1/10 SIZ 1700 12d6+1/10 SIZ
Humans reach “terminal velocity” at approximately 570m (1700 feet) which is roughly 120mph. This will do 1/10 SIZ + 12d6 damage.
Impacts Every 10 SIZ of an object does 1d6 damage for every full ten miles per hour. Thus a SIZ 70 object traveling at 90 mph inflicts ((70/10) + (90/10) = 7 + 9) = 16d6 damage to whatever it hits.
Objects or characters inside an another object take ½ damage. Seatbelts reduce the damage to 1/4, a full body harness or airbags reduce the damage to 1/8, which allows characters to walk away from severe impacts with minimal injuries, if they utilize their safety equipment.
Saving Throws: There are some forms of attack, which allow a character the opportunity to reduce or negate the effect of the damage. There are several types of saving throws, which can be attempted. The most commonly used saving throws are Dexterity, Constitution and Willpower checks.
Save versus Magical/Psionic Effects. The attacker makes his attack roll. The defender rolls against his willpower. If the defender rolls under both his willpower and the attack roll, the psionic attack has no effect. This is only for attacks that affect the mind, not psionic effects such as telekinesis, pyrokinesis or cryokinesis. Those attacks are dodged as normal attacks are.
Save versus Poison. Roll against the character's Constitution Check MINUS the potency (POT) of the poison x 5%. If the defender rolls under their constitution check minus the potency (POT) of the poison x 5%, then the poison will have the minimum effect. Otherwise the poison will have the maximum effect.
Countering Magical/Psionic Effects. The attacker makes his attack roll. The defender makes his Dispel magic roll. Low roll wins, but only if the defender has enough PWR to successfully counter the incoming spell, thus you have to have some PWR in reserve. Yet another reason to have lots of prepared spells and keep your PWR reserve high to counter magic and psionics.
Death and Dying A character has a certain amount of Damage Capacity (DC). When a character's DC is reduced to 0, they are unconscious. When a character is reduced to 1/2 DC they are dead. There are also various levels of injury between healthy and dead. As an optional rule, use the following. Full DC Healthy No Modifiers 3/4 DC Bruised 1 all Stats, -5% all skills ½ DC Injured 2 all Stats, 10% all skills 1/4 DC Seriously Injured 5 all Stats, 25% all skills 0 DC Unconscious 10 all Stats, all skills 0% 1/4 DC Critically Injured Critically Injured 1/2 DC Dead Dead
Amputation If a character with SDC takes 10 points of SDC to a limb, it is severed. If a character with SDC takes 100 points of damage to a limb, it is vaporized and CAN NOT be reattached.
If a character with VDC takes 10 points of VDC to a limb it is severed. If a character with VDC takes 100 points of VDC to a limb it is vaporized and CAN NOT be reattached.
If a character with MDC takes 10 points of MDC to a limb it is severed. If a character with MDC takes 100 points of MDC to a limb it is vaporized and CAN NOT be reattached.
When this occurs, a character PERMANENTLY loses 1/10th of their DC!
Broken and Destroyed Objects have several levels of damage just like characters and beings. Full DC Fully Functional 3/4 DC Lightly Damaged ½ DC Damaged 1/4 DC Heavily Damaged 0 DC Broken (will no longer work) 1/2 DC Critically Damaged (repairable) Full DC Destroyed (can not be repaired)
Critical Injury and Massive Damage There are times when characters and objects are subject to large amounts of damage, due to either large weapons or critical strikes. When that occurs, then these rules apply. If a character takes more than ½ of their DC in damage in one round, they are assumed to have suffered a critical injury. Critical injury also applies when a character drops below 1/4 their DC. It is possible for a character to take so much damage that they take over ½ their normal DC and drop below 1/4 DC in the same round. If that occurs, roll twice on the Critical Injury chart.
The Massive Damage Chart is used in the same way as the Critical Injury chart, but for objects instead of characters or creatures. The Massive Damage Chart assumes the object in question is a vehicle of some sort.
Critical Injury Chart 01-10 Lose a partial limb (hand, foot, below the knee, below the elbow) (01-50) or a complete limb (above the elbow, above the knee) (51-00) 11-20 Lose an eye (01-50) or an ear (51-00) 21-30 1d6 STR loss of muscle tissue and damage to tendons, ligaments, etc. 31-40 1d6 CON loss of a lung or damaged heart, liver, etc. 41-50 1d6 DEX scar tissue doesn't stretch 51-60 1d6 INT brain damage 61-70 1d6 CHA scarring and you hate people now 71-80 1d6 PWR massive tissue loss 81-90 1d6 WIS brain damage 91-00 1d6 SPD damaged tendons and joints
Massive Damage Chart 01-10 Sluggish, -20% to all rolls 11-20 Mobility impaired, -50% to speed 21-30 Overheating, will take 1d6 damage per round until vehicle is shut down. 31-40 Lose all targeting systems. 41-50 Lose communications 51-60 Lose all sensors 61-70 Pilot stunned for 1d4 rounds 71-80 Weapons systems damaged, lose 1d4 weapons. 81-90 Power failure for 1d4 rounds 91-00 Internal fire, -20% to all rolls and speed due to smoke and pilot irritation.
Healing Rates Healing rates vary according to the amount of damage a character has taken. If the character is "Healthy" they heal 1 DC per day. If they are "Bruised" they heal 1 DC every 3 days. If they are "Injured", they heal 1 DC per week. If they are "Seriously Injured", "Unconscious" or "Critically Injured" they heal 1 DC per month. The level of damage that they were at when they sought medical attention determines the amount of time needed to heal. Thus a character who is bruised and needs to heal 4 DC will need 12 days to completely heal, while a character who is unconscious and needs to heal 17 DC will need 17 months to return to 100%. Please note that "Critically Injured" is a level of damage that is so profound that a character stands a very good chance of never returning to 100% even if "magically", “technologically”, "infernally" or "divinely" cured.
Shotguns: Shotgun Shotgun Shotgun Bore Shot Buckshot Slug 3d10 1d3 x 1d10 2d8 .410 bore 4d10 1d4 x 1d10 2d8+2 28 gauge 5d10 1d5 x 1d10 3d6+2 20 gauge 6d10 1d6 x 1d10 4d6 12 gauge 8d10 1d8 x 1d10 3d8+2 10 gauge, 12 gauge 3 1/2 Magnum 10d10 1d10 x 1d10 5d6 8 gauge 12d10 2d6 x 1d10 6d6 4 gauge
Ammo types: Small Arms modifiers for modern projectiles Dual Purpose ½ SP ½ damage if wearing armor if no armor damage x 1.5 Armor Piercing ½ SP, ½ damage, Cost Wadcutter damage x 1.5, armor x 2, ½ range, Cost Semi‑wadcutter damage x 1.25, armor x 1.5, 3/4 range, Cost Reverse semi‑wadcutter damage x 1.5, armor x 2, 3/4 range, Cost Full Metal Jacket standard damage, Cost Total Metal Jacket SP ‑ 1, Cost Solid construction SP ‑ 3, Cost Soft Point Damage x 1.25, armor x 1.5, Cost Pointed Soft Point Damage x 1.1, armor x 1.25, Cost Ballistic Tip Damage x 1.25, Cost High Pressure Damage x 1.1, Cost Very High Pressure Damage x 1.25, Cost High Velocity Damage x 1.25, range x 1.25,Cost Ultra Velocity Damage x 1.5, range x 1.5, Cost Hollow Point Damage x 1.5, armor x 2, Cost Fragmenting/Frangible Damage x 2, will not penetrate any armor or cover, Cost Ramjet ammo AKA "Gyroc" Damage x 2, range x 2, Cost Blended Metal Jacket Damage x 1.25, armor x 1 Tungsten Core Armor x 1/3, damage x1/2 SLAP Armor x 1/4, damage x 1/4 sabot armor x 1/2, damage x 1/2 Tungsten Core SLAP Armor x 1/5, damage x 1/2 "spoon tip" AKA Loeffelspitzung Damage x 1.5 Segmented Bullets Damage x 2, armor x 2
Weapons modifications: Accurized Range x 1.5, Accuracy +10%, Cost x 100% Scopes Increase accuracy by 5% AND increase range by 10% equal to the magnification ‑ 1, Cost 50 IM per mag. Laser sights Increase accuracy by 10% BUT target has a 50% of noticing....not good for ambushes. Cost 200 IM IR Laser sights Increase accuracy by 10% BUT target cannot notice unless they possess IR vision Cost 400 IM Cryogenically aligned barrel Increase accuracy by 5%, Cost x 100% Muzzle compensator Increase BV by 1, Cost x 25% Free floating barrel Increase accuracy by 5%, Cost x 50% Electro-Thermal Enhancement (ETE): base damage x 2, Cost ETE firing Scramjet ammo (low end): base damage x 4, Cost ETE firing Scramjet ammo (mid range): base damage x 5, Cost ETE firing Scramjet ammo (high end): base damage x 10, Cost
Energy Pistols Super Light 1d4 Very Light 1d6 Light 1d8 Medium 1d10 Heavy 2d6 Very Heavy 2d8 Super Heavy 3d6
Energy Carbine Super Light 1d8 Very Light 1d10 Light 2d6 Medium 2d8 Heavy 3d6 Very Heavy 2d10 Super Heavy 4d6
Energy Rifle Super Light 1d10 Very Light 2d6 Light 2d8 Medium 3d6 Heavy 2d10 Very Heavy 4d6 Super Heavy 5d6
Heavy Energy Weapons Super Light 2d6 Very Light 2d8 Light 3d6 Medium 2d10 Heavy 4d6 Very Heavy 5d6 Super Heavy 6d6
Energy types: Energy Weapons vs Vehicles Effects vs Bio X-ray laser Damage x10 Damage x 5, armor divided by 2 vs X-ray lasers (which means damage x 2 vs vehicles) for a total of x 10 damage vs vehicles Microwave laser Damage x1/2 Damage x 2, an additional damage x 2 vs "living" creatures, metal armor SP x 2 vs these weapons Particle Accelerator Damage x 12 Damage x 6, +10% all rolls vs metal vehicles, armor divided by 2 (for a total damage vs. vehicles of x 12), irradiates target (5 rad per damage inflicted) Plasma gun Damage x 10 Damage x 10, sets all flammables on fire at point of impact + 2 meters Fusion Damage x 15 Damage x 15, 1/2 damage for 2 meters along path of beam AND at point of impact Blaster Damage x2 Damage x 2, +10% to hit/damage vs metal armors Electron Damage x 6 Damage x 6 Pulsar/Anti-Particle Accelerators Damage x 50 Damage x 25, irradiates target (10 rads times damage rolled), (armor provides 1/2 SP, Damage x 50 vs vehicles)!!!! Disintegrator Damage x 8 Damage x 8, does damage to armor FIRST ie. Turns all armor into ablative Electrolaser Damage x 2 Damage x 2 , -10% to all rolls in high humidity, -30% to all rolls in precipitation/fog, +10% to hit and damage vs metal armor Gamma ray laser Damage x 50 Damage x 10, armor divided by 5 (which means damage x 5 vs vehicles, so vs vehicles they are damage x 50!) Force Damage x 4 Damage x 4, basically an invisible kinetic "beam" Tachyon Damage x 10 Damage x 5, armor divided by 10 (vs vehicles an additional x 10 which means total damage x 50) Meson guns Damage x 4+ Damage x 2, armor has NO effect, thus vs vehicles it inflicts double damage (damage x 4 total), always inflicts critical/massive damage and shields have NO effect either Destabilizer Damage x 1 Damage in MDC equals the size of the "hole" it makes in shields, hole is "permanent" until shields shut off and turned back on. Ion Damage x 1 spec. Damage x 1 BUT that damage is done as a -% modifier to ALL skill rolls for the vehicle AND only does "damage" to shields. All other damage (1 MDC = -1% vs MDC targets) is bled off at -5% per round. Modern Kinetic weapons: 12.7mm/.50 Inch 5d6 14.5mm/15mm 6d6 20mm 5d10 25mm/1 Inch 6d10 30mm 7d10 35mm 9d10 40mm 10d10 45mm 11d10 50mm/2 Inch 12d10 60mm 15d10 70mm 18d10 75mm/3 Inch 19d10 80mm 20d10 88mm 4d6x10 90mm 22d10 100mm/4 Inch 25d10 105mm 27d10 110mm 27d10+2 115mm 27d10+5 120mm 30d10 125mm/5 Inch 31d10 140mm (low est) 35d10 152mm/6 Inch 37d10 155mm 38d10 177mm/7 inch 44d10 200mm/8 Inch 50d10 255mm/10 Inch 62d10 280mm/12 Inch 75d10 330mm/13 Inch 81d10 355mm/14 Inch 88d10 380mm/15 Inch 94d10 405mm/16 Inch 1d10x100 430mm/17 Inch 10d10x100+50 460mm/18 Inch 11d10x 100
Ammo types: Ammo Type Damage Notes Hyper Velocity x 4 Fin Stabilized base +5% accuracy AP 2 4 HV Discarding Sabot x 2 2 AP Depleted Uranium x 3 SPx1/3, counts as incendiary 3 DU Semi-Light AP x1.5 SP x 1/2 2 DS Tungsten x 2 SPx1/3 11 Armor Piercing x 2 SPx1/2 High Explosive base HE Armor Piericing x 5.5 SPx1/2, non-attenuated Adiabatic Shearing +1 to mult Can not be used with DU (already included…) HE Anti Tank x 5.5 SPx1/2, non-attenuated HEAT w/ DU liner x 10 SPx1/2, non- attenuated Incendiary +1d10 overall Explosive Formed Projectile x 4 SPx1/2, non-attenuated Self Forging Projectile x 4 SPx1/2, non-attenuated HE Plastic base SPx1/2, non-attenuated, does 1/10th damage to internal components OR roll for a critical strike Advanced Propellent x1.25 HE Squash Head base SPx1/2, non-attenuated, does 1/10th damage to internal components OR roll for a critical strike Tracer +5% next attack HE Dual Purpose base SPx1/2, non-attenuated Fragmentation base BRx2 Thermo Baric SPECIAL If detonated inside a target, DAM x 2 If detonated outside a target, DAM x 1/2 ramjet ammo x2 Electrothermal Enhancement X2 Damage bonus only applicable to NON-Explosive rounds!, Range x2 Low Scramjet Ammo X2 Can only be fired by ETE cannons Mid Scramjet Ammo X3 Can only be fired by ETE cannons High Scramjet Ammo X5 Can only be fired by ETE cannons Chemical Chaff Extended Range Base Bleed (+30% range, -10% damage, -10% accuracy) Rocket assisted Projectile range increase is equivalent to damage loss up to range x2, damage x 1/2 High Capacity 10% increase in damage Dual HEAT x1 negates reactive armor (if equipped), otherwise does +1/10th damage PELE Penetrator w Enhanced Lateral Efficiency x1.5 SP x 1/2, Causes damage as SLAP but has NO fuzing and has no explosive, But does have a "Blast radius" equal to 10th the mm caliber in meters. Thus a 20mm has a of 2 meters
-STS
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:16 pm
by Dunia
I have thought of this problem quite alot and I am a staunch oposer to the concept of MD and MDC, I like most of the world, the setting, monsterideas and NPCs, I just abhor the system of MDC and MD.
So I have thought of a whole new system for my campain and it appears to be very well recieved by my players and makes the combats more exciting as well. I will describe it below, but I doubt that many of you will like it and try to find holes in my already flawed logic of this system.
* First, I took all spells, psionic power and armour equipment and put various damage reductions to them, so that if you have a standard Glitter Boy, it has a damage rating of 35 (5 Laser), and ignoring all damage that are done to it by any weapon that is less than 35 (or if laser only 5), the rest of it hits the armor as normal and harming the machine. So if you take a Laser rifle and roll 19 damage, you will do 14 damage to the glitterboy, but your friend that has a automatic rifle and shoot a burst doing 40 damage, will only inflict 5 damage to the machine.
* Old MDC weapons will go directly to HP and bypas SDC to unarmored personel. hence making Laser still very dangerous, but any protective vest will still shield its wearer.
* All weapons have Penetration value that will help bypass armor
* All armors have AV that will help them protect from damage.
The I have reduced the numbers of old-style MD/MDC equipment, making ordinary SDC stuff more valuabe and still effective against demons, monsters and equipment (though damage reduction and armor value will still not make it possible for an unarmed human to punch a hole in a super carrier or tank which has always been the argument that most people offended by this idea gives me)
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:33 pm
by Crucible
Plain and simple. 1:100 has worked just fine and GAW shows how to make SDC better fitted for the environment. I tried the variations but even my players felt that it didn't work with the overall setting. 1:100 is fine with me. You just have to know how to make it work.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:29 pm
by Dunia
what is GAW?
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:31 pm
by jaymz
Dunia wrote:what is GAW?
Golden Age Weaponsmiths. First introduced in Rifts Mercenaries and expanded upon in Merc Town and Merc Ops by and large
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:38 am
by Noon
One approach I thought of was that wilderness folk make alot of wooden log barricades. Sure, the monster gets through one barricade wall with one bite or claw swipe, but that still wastes one of it's attacks - meanwhile the wilderness folk either run further into the bunker and collapse it behind them or the barricades have weapon slits while vibro blades on poles are jabbed through at the monster. Vibro blades don't run out of ammo and were probably used in industrial processes as well (so can be found in ruined industrial areas). Jab at the monster through the gap, fall back a couple of barricades (doors in them let you through then lock into place) and jab again, either fending the thing off, or have to fall back all the way to some tunnel collapse point.
So, you know, there's lots of tree's around, so that protects. And vibro blades, as said, don't run out of ammo (and I know someone is now going to be compelled to make up some fiction to say they do)
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:22 am
by Crucible
jaymz wrote:
Dunia wrote:what is GAW?
Golden Age Weaponsmiths. First introduced in Rifts Mercenaries and expanded upon in Merc Town and Merc Ops by and large
Sorry Dunia for the lack of explaining further and thanks jaymz for explaining.
GAW is awesome stuff. It really shows that there is a middle road in weaponry.
I went to several variations like 1:10, 1:50 et al and to be honest it scakes away from what Rifts and other worlds like it is expressing...titanic mismatch!!! I have had guys take an SDC weapon and make it do minimum MD and take out serious beasts. In fact my guys will sometimes go crazy stockpiling SDC weapons with upgraded ammo (ramjet, explosive, and others) and arm small towns.
Weapons damage don't always win. Characters played by folks with good ideas and good roleplay wins a lot more often.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:38 pm
by Dunia
WildWalker wrote:Sounds interesting but it's too complicated for me.
WildWalker
Actually, it just take some time at the conversion stage where you sit down and add the new values to stuff and then when you have it it is rather smooth:
Example:
1) You have a weapon with standard ammo, (Penetration Value/PV 2) and fire a burst at a guard with a armor suit (SDC 50, Armour Value/AV 5)
2) After you determine a hit, you roll as normal for damage: (1D6x10) and roll a damage of 30.
3) You look at the difference between AV and PV - in this case AV5 -PV 2 = AV 3 (the suit will ignore the first 3 damage, and hence the suit took 27 damage of the 50 it have.
4) After this attack: Suit have 23 remaining armor to protect its wearer.
Example:
1) You have a weapon with armor penetrating ammo, (Penetration Value/PV and fire a burst at a guard with a armor suit (SDC 50, Armour Value/AV 5)
2) After you determine a hit, you roll as normal for damage: (1D6x10) and roll a damage of 30.
3) You look at the difference between AV and PV - in this case AV5 -PV 8 = AV -3 If PV is higher than AV, then this number will go through the armour and harm the wearer.
4) The Armor will lose 30 SDC and the wearer will lose 3 SDC/HP from the attack.
5) After this attack: Suit have 20 SDC and the guard lost 3 SDC/HP from the impact.
The system is quite fast as I have all weapons, spells, powers and armours written down on my GM screen and my players are fantastic with keeping track of their Armours/AV & PVs so it is not slower than before and its not hard to write down what all my players have for AVs and PVs either so I can just roll stuff and then say ''You feel a sharp pain as the guard shoots at you, but the protective vest that you have takes almost all of the attack: Your suit is damaged for 30 SDc and you take 3 yourself."
Not to complain, i just find this system more realistic than the normal system, sure it took me a few hours a day for a week to sit down and write down all values for weapons/spells and stuff, but once its done, it is pretty fun.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:43 pm
by Crucible
I don't even try to keep it real. 1:100 fine here.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
by Noon
sybert1138 wrote:I've done 2 to 1 with everything assigned an AR and using PV. I've also done 10 to 1. I think 10 to 1 was a better balance. I've run Rifts for years and have used the 100 to 1 RAW rules for some time. I do find it refreshing and a little more Post Apocalyptic feeling to have the 10 to 1 ratio as it allows SDC weapons to be useful. My test ground for these changes were what I called P.(re)A., it was a setting where I stepped back to 10 years before the founding of the Coalition States. This meant many of the major kingdoms were not up and running. It made for a very interesting time and when the group finally acquired their first MD weapon or armor it was a significant deal to them.
What did they do before they aquired them?
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:46 pm
by strtkwr
I believe that the problem is not the 1:100 ratio, but the fact that there is soooooo many MDC weapons and creatures. I think MDC should have been reserved for only the most powerful creatures (dragons and major demons) and vehicles (like the GB). Everything else should be SDC.
Part of the problem that causes people to believe that there is a hord of MDC creatures out there ready to eat all the humans is that it seems like the majority of monsters presented are MDC monsters (like the Xiticx, dinosaurs, minor demons, small to man sized d-bee's, ect) and you have mostly MDC armor and weapons presented. If they had kept it limited (think of the original Macross book for Robotech), then I don't think there would be this major of a problem with mega damage. I mean, Floopers as MDC creatures, really?
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:25 am
by Crucible
strtkwr wrote:I believe that the problem is not the 1:100 ratio, but the fact that there is soooooo many MDC weapons and creatures. I think MDC should have been reserved for only the most powerful creatures (dragons and major demons) and vehicles (like the GB). Everything else should be SDC.
Part of the problem that causes people to believe that there is a hord of MDC creatures out there ready to eat all the humans is that it seems like the majority of monsters presented are MDC monsters (like the Xiticx, dinosaurs, minor demons, small to man sized d-bee's, ect) and you have mostly MDC armor and weapons presented. If they had kept it limited (think of the original Macross book for Robotech), then I don't think there would be this major of a problem with mega damage. I mean, Floopers as MDC creatures, really?
Nah, there are far more SDC weapons man. Just so many different kinds. MDC, its actually not THAT common place the way I run it. Like the AI and other stuff.
Floopers are the one thing that has never been seen in one of my games.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:09 pm
by Ravenwing
I've always used the 10:1 ratio for all MDC settings, it's always worked fine for me.
Mega Damage
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:34 am
by Akashic Soldier
Mega Damage is at its core a very good idea but I find myself in conflict with it a lot.
On one hand it is a sure-fire way to handle "super" beings and a machines... on the other hand its so common that it kind of makes it a little redundant. I'm not a professional game designer but I'd love someone to go through Palladium (Rifts especially) and turn a lot of Mega Damage Capacity beings into beings with vast amounts of SDC or HP and do the same with a lot of the technology.
Don't get me wrong I really like Mega Damage! But I think that if only certain "special" things dealt in it than it would be treated with the same fear and reverence in game that we treat nuclear arms with in our society and it would make play a lot more balanced and add a bit of an extra WOW-Factor whenever it came into play. Sure, maybe the Samas kicksass, might even have a high power weapon but a GB has MDC. A dinosaur might kickass and take names... but a Dragon is MDC.
I honestly feel that if armor rating and SDC were bumped up and MDC was bumped down (while remaining in a league of its own) it would be an excellent way to show the difference between vehicular/robot combat and battle with super beings like GODS. If lasers just did a lot of SD damage than a god could walk unmolested in the street (for the most part) until faced with a "serious threat" like someone with magic or in high-end power armor. If there was a conversion rate (which there would be in this ideal scenario) it would be high enough that someone with a vibrosword could "scratch or damage" a MD being/vehicle with a lucky shot or persistence but lesser weapons would do little but to perhaps slow it down.
This would mean that MDC beings were always considered a threat and something to be careful around and if something could actually inflict Mega Damage than this should be represented as the ability to inflict damage on a massive scale (punches that leave great craters in the pavement or high-end weapons like the Boom Gun or Dragon's Breath) while immensely strong or large beings just inflicted larger amounts of SD than their regular sized counterparts.
Again, its much too late in the game for any of this to matter unless Palladium "revises" its whole line (and they wont) and they're all untested opinions so maybe I am just talking out my butt, but as it stands I think it is MUCH too easy to inflict Mega Damage and BE Mega Damage for it to carry the weight of what Mega Damage is supposed to reflect as a game mechanic.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:21 am
by flatline
I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:19 am
by FreelancerMar
In reference to the tanks. The main reason that the M1 Abrahms is such an effective killer is because the 120mm main gun uses a depleted Uranium shell which has a very heavy mass compared to the traditional shells of other tanks and tank like vehicles. According to MIO The comming of the rifts/big flash takes place at 2098AD IIRC and the current rifts anviornment is something like 23xxAD IIRC. That's close to another 100 years of devlopment before every thing goes boom. If one figures that the MD(C) if a structure can be somewhat dependant upon the time period it is created it can make things very interesting.
Now Someone mentioned the WWII era German Tiger Tank. I think that we can agree that this was the most powerful and most effective Tank of its time. It mounted an 88mm main gun IIRC and was known to bounce other tank rounds off of it's armor plating while taking only very minimal damage. Now if that cannot be called a MD structure of it's time than I do not know what is.
The 100-1 MD ratio is just fine by me. MD is supposed to be obscenely dangerous and Lethal. In Most cases MDC structures are suppose to be largely IMPERVIOUS to most SD weapons. That is the way that MD is written. Now you do not have to agree with me but you also do not have to flame me for my opinion either.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:05 pm
by Cinos
flatline wrote:I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
I'd actually disagree with your example on two parts; First the two weapons do very different damage (Knives are typically 1D4, Bats 2D6ish if I recall). Second, getting cut with a knife in a fight is often a glance, getting hit with a bat is often a straighter hit with full force and both sucks more and more likely to kill / drop you out of a fight (as damage represents).
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:24 pm
by flatline
Cinos wrote:
flatline wrote:I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
I'd actually disagree with your example on two parts; First the two weapons do very different damage (Knives are typically 1D4, Bats 2D6ish if I recall). Second, getting cut with a knife in a fight is often a glance, getting hit with a bat is often a straighter hit with full force and both sucks more and more likely to kill / drop you out of a fight (as damage represents).
Okay, we'll use your numbers to make the same point: would you rather take 2D6 from a baseball bat or 2D6 from a 9mm pistol?
--flatline
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:31 pm
by jaymz
flatline wrote:
Cinos wrote:
flatline wrote:I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
I'd actually disagree with your example on two parts; First the two weapons do very different damage (Knives are typically 1D4, Bats 2D6ish if I recall). Second, getting cut with a knife in a fight is often a glance, getting hit with a bat is often a straighter hit with full force and both sucks more and more likely to kill / drop you out of a fight (as damage represents).
Okay, we'll use your numbers to make the same point: would you rather take 2D6 from a baseball bat or 2D6 from a 9mm pistol?
--flatline
Depends on where one gets hit. Take a 9mm to the arm and its a good bet all you may need is some sewing up of muscle tissue and stitching of flesh. While painful and hard, you would get use of your arm in a relatively short period of time. However get hit the right way with a baseball bat and a bone in your arm may get shattered which would lay up your arm for a significantly longer period of time.
Everything is relative when it comes to the damage done by a weapon.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:22 pm
by slade the sniper
Okay... I tested this out in my HU games and isn't too unbalancing...
Also, to damage MDC objects, you have to do 100 SD in a single attack.
This reduces the ridiculous MDC of RIFTS/ROBOTECH to something more manageable...
I would keep the weapons damage the same though, since now one shot kills are possible (YAY!)
for MD body armor, MDC x 10 = SDC for Powered Armor, MDC/20 = MDC for Mecha, MDC/3 = MDC for Veritech mecha, MDC/4 = MDC for Tanks/AFV's, MDC/2 = MDC For Aircraft, MDC/5 = MDC
-STS
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:35 pm
by Killer Cyborg
flatline wrote:I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
I can't really argue with any of that.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
I can disagree with that, though. I only hate SOME of the mechanics. For the most part, the system itself is about as good as any other overall. Though yeah... it could use a LOT of tightening up.
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:57 pm
by flatline
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:I don't like the MDC system, but the "get rid of MDC, but give all MDC critters x2 or x10 or x100 the SDC/HP" approach doesn't improve things at all.
The first problem is that all damage is treated the same. Is 1D6 from a baseball bat really equivalent to 1D6 from a Knife? I'd much rather get beaten than stabbed.
The second problem is that you're completely fine until you're dead ("subtract 60MDC...I still got 30MDC left, I'm good!").
The third problem is that what's MD and what isn't is completely arbitrary without respect to reason.
I can't really argue with any of that.
*sigh* I love the settings, I hate the game mechanics.
--flatline
I can disagree with that, though. I only hate SOME of the mechanics. For the most part, the system itself is about as good as any other overall. Though yeah... it could use a LOT of tightening up.
You know, if that's as close as we ever come to total agreement on anything, I'll take it.
--flatline
Re: 1:10 SDC:MDC?
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:34 pm
by Mad Cow Milk
Svartalf wrote:
jaymz wrote:I never said I didn't like the setting. Please tell me where I said that. It is still your opnion that 10-1 ratio is wrong if that is how people think it should be. The game is designed to allow people to modify it as they see fit.
You said as much when you said "this is not good, it must be changed", when in fact the Rifts setting loses a lot of its flavor if a bunch of militiamen with assault rifles can actually do things against the MDC demons and monsters.
Ever thought of playing System Failure? might be more your cuppa.
No political figure would survive with out wearing an MDC fully covering suit. I with my MDC sharp toothpick just wonder behind them and give their neck a little poke and they are atomized. You may say that MDC monsters are infrequent, but judging by the books the presents of MDC weapons, armor, and cyborgs are actually rather common.
and fire a burst at a guard with a armor suit (SDC 50, Armour Value/AV 5)