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keir451 wrote:Also, exponentially more mecha? How big is that UN spacy BS tonnagewise? Is that 38 valkyries the standard complement?

Adios
KLM

The Un Spacy Battleship is 3,650,000 tons, standard fighter complement is indeed 38, plus 24 Destroids. An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potentail translation error perhaps?
Anyway, most of the Frigate class vessels have a lesser fighter load, but once we get in to equivalent classes (batleship grade or above) the overall troop complement far exceedss that of the smaller UN Spacy vessels. The ral difference is in their respective combat theories, the UN Spacy seems geared more towards space battles, relying heavily on their trnasformable mecha to cover multiple roles. Where as the CCW and others in 3G seem to be geared for both space and ground combat, having fighters as well as actuall ground infantry and ground assault vehicles. The UN Spacy is going to have to reconsider their tactical doctrine in regards to the 3G standards.[/quote]

Well, as it stands, the 3,6 million ton UNS BS has the rough equivalent of 2 cruisers in terms of fighters - thought there are
exceptions.
A sploogie Dragon dreadnought is the lower end of frigates (by its tonnage and capabilities) yet carries almost as many transformable
fighters, and the UWW-s Iron ships carry 48 fighters and about a 100 marines (probably many of them in space capable PA).
Also, CAF doctrine (mentioned in DMB2 or 3) uses combined fighter + pa assaults and the TGE is basically the same - though using
fighters, shuttles (*) and frigates.

For my part, they either use another type of "shuttle" (ie. a non-FTL capable craft, in the tonnage range of a few thousand) or
the Rain of Death is a bit faster if not dragged down with that land battleship.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

keir451 wrote:Also, exponentially more mecha? How big is that UN spacy BS tonnagewise? Is that 38 valkyries the standard complement?

Adios
KLM

The Un Spacy Battleship is 3,650,000 tons, standard fighter complement is indeed 38, plus 24 Destroids. An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potential translation error perhaps?
Anyway, most of the Frigate class vessels have a lesser fighter load, but once we get in to equivalent classes (batleship grade or above) the overall troop complement far exceeds that of the smaller UN Spacy vessels. The real difference is in their respective combat theories, the UN Spacy seems geared more towards space battles, relying heavily on their transformable mecha to cover multiple roles. Where as the CCW, and others in 3G, seem to be geared for both space and ground combat, having fighters as well as actual ground infantry and ground assault vehicles. The UN Spacy is going to have to reconsider their tactical doctrine in regards to the 3G standards.

KLM wrote:
Well, as it stands, the 3,6 million ton UNS BS has the rough equivalent of 2 cruisers in terms of fighters - thought there are
exceptions.
A sploogie Dragon dreadnought is the lower end of frigates (by its tonnage and capabilities) yet carries almost as many transformable
fighters, and the UWW-s Iron ships carry 48 fighters and about a 100 marines (probably many of them in space capable PA).
Also, CAF doctrine (mentioned in DMB2 or 3) uses combined fighter + pa assaults and the TGE is basically the same - though using
fighters, shuttles (*) and frigates.

For my part, they either use another type of "shuttle" (ie. a non-FTL capable craft, in the tonnage range of a few thousand) or
the Rain of Death is a bit faster if not dragged down with that land battleship.

Adios
KLM

[/quote]
Now, now sir, I did not say "exponetially more mecha" I do believe that was jaymz. However, I do claim the section in bold. But, Yes the troop capacities of many of the 3G ships vary and there may even be others I don't immediately recall that have a higher troop/fighter capacity. I do think that many of the standrd 3G fighters will give Macross fighters a run for their money and 3G power armor (esp. a Battleram) is something the Macross people in my game will need to be concerned about.

Hi there!

keir451 wrote:
Now, now sir, I did not say "exponetially more mecha" I do believe that was jaymz. However, I do claim the section in bold. But, Yes the troop capacities of many of the 3G ships vary and there may even be others I don't immediately recall that have a higher troop/fighter capacity. I do think that many of the standrd 3G fighters will give Macross fighters a run for their money and 3G power armor (esp. a Battleram) is something the Macross people in my game will need to be concerned about.

Sorry, my mistake (for not checking quotes).

Thought the Battleram (and the Ovoid) are not power armor, but robot vehicles - multi-crewed, comparable in flight charasteristic to a
starfighter, but closer to a destroid in armaments.

Still, true power armor, like the Warlord Mk II and the Silverhawk are something to be taken seriously by a veritech jockey.

And the Kittanii transformable (from DMB2) "thing" is between the two.

Adios
KLM

Yah what was I thinking classing the Battleram as PA. Brain no work now, Grimlock sleeepppyyy.
If y'all come up w/ more things I've missed or new ideas drop on me, I'll check back in a few hours after I snooze.

keir451 wrote:An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potential translation error perhaps?

As the writer and translator responsible for the work-in-progress that is the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II: Lovers Again section, it would be remiss of me not to explain this one...

To be blunt, the substance of Palladium's coverage of the various varieties of warship from the Macross II: Lovers Again seems to have little, if any, basis in either the animation source materials or the animation itself. In particular, their coverage of the UN Spacy fleet was miles off the mark. Just about every major class of ship in the UN Spacy's fleet ended up being listed as the wrong type of ship and at a fraction of their actual size, which often directly contradicts major scenes in the animation. In actual fact, the Heracles is listed as being a "large battleship", the Gloria is a "fleet flagship", and the ubiquitous ships which the RPG calls "corvettes" are in fact the UN Spacy's line battleships. About the only ship where they hit close to the mark with size is the rescue ship that Faerie squad borrows to recover Sylvie and Hibiki after their sojourn into the bowels of the Sarride. On average, actual size on those ships is somewhere between 2-6x depending on class, while the huge Macross Cannons are over 12x the size listed in the RPG.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potential translation error perhaps?

As the writer and translator responsible for the work-in-progress that is the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II: Lovers Again section, it would be remiss of me not to explain this one...

To be blunt, the substance of Palladium's coverage of the various varieties of warship from the Macross II: Lovers Again seems to have little, if any, basis in either the animation source materials or the animation itself. In particular, their coverage of the UN Spacy fleet was miles off the mark. Just about every major class of ship in the UN Spacy's fleet ended up being listed as the wrong type of ship and at a fraction of their actual size, which often directly contradicts major scenes in the animation. In actual fact, the Heracles is listed as being a "large battleship", the Gloria is a "fleet flagship", and the ubiquitous ships which the RPG calls "corvettes" are in fact the UN Spacy's line battleships. About the only ship where they hit close to the mark with size is the rescue ship that Faerie squad borrows to recover Sylvie and Hibiki after their sojourn into the bowels of the Sarride. On average, actual size on those ships is somewhere between 2-6x depending on class, while the huge Macross Cannons are over 12x the size listed in the RPG.

Hey Seto, could you fillme in on which ships are what sizes?

keir451 wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:An odd side note; according to the Macross Mecha manual the ship M2 refers to as "battleship" is apparently a "flagship" while the M2 "corvette' is apparently the actual "battleship". The "corvette" even has more armor than the flagship, potential translation error perhaps?

As the writer and translator responsible for the work-in-progress that is the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II: Lovers Again section, it would be remiss of me not to explain this one...

To be blunt, the substance of Palladium's coverage of the various varieties of warship from the Macross II: Lovers Again seems to have little, if any, basis in either the animation source materials or the animation itself. In particular, their coverage of the UN Spacy fleet was miles off the mark. Just about every major class of ship in the UN Spacy's fleet ended up being listed as the wrong type of ship and at a fraction of their actual size, which often directly contradicts major scenes in the animation. In actual fact, the Heracles is listed as being a "large battleship", the Gloria is a "fleet flagship", and the ubiquitous ships which the RPG calls "corvettes" are in fact the UN Spacy's line battleships. About the only ship where they hit close to the mark with size is the rescue ship that Faerie squad borrows to recover Sylvie and Hibiki after their sojourn into the bowels of the Sarride. On average, actual size on those ships is somewhere between 2-6x depending on class, while the huge Macross Cannons are over 12x the size listed in the RPG.

Hey Seto, could you fillme in on which ships are what sizes?

Here http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross2/macross2-index.html

KLM wrote:Hi there!

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:

jaymz wrote: Giving the UN Space ships ranges that are 1000 times farther than anything in the 3g is just to the point o f making the macross stuff nearly undefeatable since no 3g ships would be able to get in range. Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range.

Khmm... Shadow Bolt fighter, from DMB2. Or even Star Ghosts. Or anyone, who casts Imp. to energy on his ship.

Adios
KLM

All well and good but they would easily be overwhelmed by the fact the UNS ships typically carry exponentially more mecha overall on board and all of them use missiles and are at least on par with them for MDC and manueverability.

Err... So what?

A single-seat space fighter survived a direct hit from the Macross cannon, launched missiles that continue to attack and damage,
and is attacking with lightning or something, which just tears the ship apart, without anything detectable (TK machineguns). Anyone
wants to fight them?

Drop in stuff like Time Slip spell (kinda funny in dogfight if your opponet gets a extra few seconds to manouver, while you are
are frozen in time), Shadow meld or the Phase-tech "one ship barrage".

Also, exponentially more mecha? How big is that UN spacy BS tonnagewise? Is that 38 valkyries the standard complement?

Adios
KLM

Ships of a similar size carry vastly more mecha.

The UNS battleship in M2 is actually more alng the lines ofhte Warshield Cruiser. It has 12 while the UNS Battleship has 3 (38) times as many as well as 24 other full sized mecha (which it could be argued could be replaced with 24 Valkryies for a total of 62). you cannot compare the UNS battleship to the Protector Battleships as they are as that would be just silly.

Time slip and shadow meld? No fighters have that as far as I am aware and Phase only works to a degree. UWW fighters are designed to be used by normal people otherwise they;d have more spells availbe on the fighter. As it is impervious to energy and armour of ithan are the only ones along with a lightning rod.


As for impervious to energy. Yes it could survive a macross cannon. Can it survive the many missile the ship can fire to beyond the range of that fighters weapons (other than its missiles)? Is going to attack the ship while being attacked by other fighters? Also impervious to energy wont really do them do much good when facing the other fighters as they use projectile weapons and missiles.

Magic is the not awesome great equalizer many people seem to think it is. At least not based on the ships that are portrayed. Now if you want to purpose build a specific custom craft to deal with the UNS then yes it can be done but the ships as they are, if sent against the UNS, are not all that powerful or great. Phase fighters included.

jaymz wrote:Ships of a similar size carry vastly more mecha.

The UNS battleship in M2 is actually more alng the lines ofhte Warshield Cruiser.

Is it? Around 120.000 tons? Really? Ain't it around a few millon tons?

It has 12 while the UNS Battleship has 3 (38) times as many as well as 24 other full sized mecha (which it could be argued could be replaced with 24 Valkryies for a total of 62).

Sorry, please read further in DMB3. Warshields have 12 fighters, plus 10 Silverhawks plus 2 Battlerams. So, it is 24 vs 62 - but
if you read even further, you can see, that the Smasher (70k tons) carries 36 Flying Fangs - so, from both the materials and
money one can almost build two Smashers instead of one Warshield. In that case it is 2*36 vs 62.

But there is the Iron Ship. 48 fighters plus 100 or so Warlock marines. In power armor.

you cannot compare the UNS battleship to the Protector Battleships as they are as that would be just silly.

Did I?

Time slip and shadow meld? No fighters have that as far as I am aware and Phase only works to a degree.

Why wouldn't they use those spells?

UWW fighters are designed to be used by normal people otherwise they;d have more spells availbe on the fighter. As it is impervious to energy and armour of ithan are the only ones along with a lightning rod.

And TK machine guns and bottled demons...

...and of course Techno Wizards parade around in gogles and pilot's jacket. Maybe for a reason?

As for impervious to energy. Yes it could survive a macross cannon. Can it survive the many missile the ship can fire to beyond the range of that fighters weapons (other than its missiles)?

It can survive and infinite number of plasma missiles.

However, if and when Keir's party comes under attack from the UWW, do you think they will launch a single
Shadow Bolt? Nope. More like dozens of them.

Or that single shadow bolt will close in under invisibility - superior, no less - and unload its payload of bottled demons, than
turn invisible again. And the pilot will eat popcorn, while leaning back.

Magic is the not awesome great equalizer many people seem to think it is.

It is not "just" magic - even if you vastly underestimate even current, "canon" UWW capabilities.

It is INFORMATION and magic.

After first encounter every 3G power can - and IMO will - use Clairoyance and other information
gathering magic/psi to have some extra intell.

Robotech dudes cannot.

So, they have to learn the hard way, against enemi(es) which have some unknown abilities and
which enemi(es) have more intell.

Good luck for that.

Also, there is the factor of demoralisation.

Adios
KLM

Shadow bolts do not have those abilities KLM. They have Armour of Ithan and Impervious to Energy. That is all that is listed. Also I would imagine the vast majority of Technowizards in the UWW would be used to build ships etc not fly them. So like I said you want to purpose build ships to fight them go ahead but based on what is in the books the UWW shadow bolt isn;t all THAT tough to beat. Bottled demon missiles are still just missiles and tk machineguns are essentially autocannons for the purposes of combat and the rules.

Also I am not basing my comparison of the UNS Battleship to a warshield on mass but size. The UNS battleship would be in a similar category as the Warshield, Smasher etc.

I am NOT saying magic could be used as an advantage but as donein teh books right now, they are not at much if any advantage. Add in if Kier lets them have any Zentraedi Ships and then we're talking ships that may be able to take on the much vaunted Doombringer with a good chance of success.

keir451 wrote:Hey Seto, could you fill me in on which ships are what sizes?

Sure thing... as jaymz indicated, my estimates for the sizes of the Gloria-type fleet flagship and Heracles-type large battleship are in their respective articles on the Macross Mecha Manual, but sizes for the rescue ship and standard battleship haven't been included yet.

There are official sizes for pretty much all of the Mardook ships, but so far the only UN Spacy ship to have its size listed is the Macross Cannon... which measures a whopping 6 kilometers (3.728mi) from bow to stern in cruiser mode, and roughly 4 kilometers (2.485 miles) in "attack" mode. For the other UN Spacy ships of the 2092 period, we had to estimate their sizes based on the animation and visual cues in the line art. The only one where Palladium seems to have hit close to the mark is the rescue ship, which the RPG and Deck Plans call the "Escort Carrier". I've estimated the size of the Heracles large battleship at around 1.2km, with the Gloria-type flagship being around 1.0-1.1km long, and the standard battleship at around 600m, though it's hard to pin down because we seldom get a look at one up close next to an object of known size the way we do the others.

jaymz wrote:Shadow bolts do not have those abilities KLM. They have Armour of Ithan and Impervious to Energy. That is all that is listed. Also I would imagine the vast majority of Technowizards in the UWW would be used to build ships etc not fly them.

Arcane MK II frigates have 2d6 practicioners of magic aboard. Iron ships have 16 techno wizards aboard.
So much for not flying.

Bottled demon missiles are still just missiles and tk machineguns are essentially autocannons for the purposes of combat and the rules.

Except that they behave a little differently. Add this to the fact, when such a craft survived a macross cannon hit and then roll
for HF (or Shell Shock, if you prefer). This would "knock out" up to 50% of Veritech pilots temporary - in fighter/mecha combat
this means a farm. (You know - the 6 feet deep one...).

A quick list of things "when to roll":
- fighters with force field/imp. to energy (f.ex. in the movie Independence Day, noone tried to overload the shield of
the UFO fighters at the initial engagement... Who knows, it might have been successfull).
- bottled demon missiles striking (and damaging) AGAIN!
- lightning rod attack
- TK machinegun (only if hits)
- Phase teleportation, OP field acivation, Phase gun hit (ouch... it hurts... INSIDE the ship!)
- invisibility
- hull breacher missiles

OK, the survivors of such encounter would adapt. If there are any of the to tell the tale.

Also I am not basing my comparison of the UNS Battleship to a warshield on mass but size. The UNS battleship would be in a similar category as the Warshield, Smasher etc.

A little bit larger than the Warshield (about like 10-30% in each dimension, guessimated 150% in volume) -
especially if we consider Seito's opinion about ships being larger on screen, than in the book.

Also you picked the cruiser with maybe the smallest aerospace group for comparison.

So, all in all:

"Your players would end up with no fear of a 3g flotilla of ships because the flotilla would never get into their own weapons range."

Wrong.

"exponentially more mecha"

Wrong.

All in all, if they fail ( - their saving throws - ) at first encounter/negotiations (this part includes killing all the wittnesses
and sometimes even THAT will not help for example against a noro ghost-maker) they have a really good chance to die.

Also, correct me in this one, but I think noone is MDC. I mean even the non-micronised Zentraedi have like a 1000 extra SDC,
but not MDC creatures.

Silhouettes, Star Elves are rather "anime-ish" - not to mention an Oni Ninja - but seeing one kicking a hole into
a steel wall, or shrugging off a hail of bullets... Roll for HF

Adios
KLM

In ship to ship combat the 3g ships would not get into range.

Arcane 2 ships have mages because that ship actually needs ppe to do things. Shadowbolts do not. Iron ships having TWs on board is likely to mean they are hte engineers just as you have engineers on board any naval vessel, not as pilots.

The only thing different about bottle demon missiles is that hey do nothave a "range" per se but otherwise are in fact treated as missiles for combat purposes (yes they do not end wit one attack but in that regard they are similar in some respects to the automated attack bits of Mac2)

TK machineguns for combat purposes are no different than autocannons.

Lighting rod attack would be treated no differently than any other energy weapon.

The UNS Bship is about he same length (slightly longer) as an Iron Ship then. Firepower is comparable between all of the ships in question. Mind you the UNS ships are WAy out of whack in size by palladiums stats.

Depeding on what exactley Kier is using from macross since he is doing a high brid, dealin with aliens isn;t going to be all that much of shock. Surviving a macross cannon blast will certainly make them scratch thier heads but not to the point of a horror factor not to mention thier are still full sized zentraedi which are minor MDC so while small MDC being may be surprising, not THAt surprising really.

I think we're just gong to have to agree to disagree KLM because you aren;t convincing of how good magic woudl be nor am i convincing how not as good as you think magic is.

Honestly alot of what I'm gonna do is still "up in the air" as of yet, wether or not the UN Spacy forces actually wind up fighting against any UWW forces is question for another day. Tho' I will agree that the "bottled Demons" could mess w/a Valkyrie pilots head a bit.
I'm mostly gonna limit the action to encounters centering around the characters interactions w/ the setting at large. There might be occasional battles betwen the UN Spacy Battlehip and independent forces or the occasional TGE ship.
There might be a bit of culture shock as, by Macross standards, the humans have never encountered the sheer variety of races that the 3G contain. As for Magic & Psionics, while the humans in this adventure may not have them initially later generations probably will, and if they encounter magic or psionic using races and bring them into the fold that could negate outside advantages.

dont forget people could gain powers by being pulled through the rifts that weak little kid that cleans the floors might be a burster with out even knowing it until it hits the fan

calto40k wrote:dont forget people could gain powers by being pulled through the rifts that weak little kid that cleans the floors might be a burster with out even knowing it until it hits the fan

Yeah that one is still buzzing around in my head, I can't quite remember if there was a rule for some non psionics having a chance to suddenly gain a level of psionic abilities.
At the very least any new characters born into the 3G setting will get to roll on the psionic table.

keir451 wrote:

calto40k wrote:dont forget people could gain powers by being pulled through the rifts that weak little kid that cleans the floors might be a burster with out even knowing it until it hits the fan

Yeah that one is still buzzing around in my head, I can't quite remember if there was a rule for some non psionics having a chance to suddenly gain a level of psionic abilities.
At the very least any new characters born into the 3G setting will get to roll on the psionic table.

At least give the PC / NPC a roll on the random psionics chart
The power-level of these suddenly awakend latent abilities would start @ level 1.
which would suck if the PC was, say...6th. level already

Hi there!

DhAkael wrote:At least give the PC / NPC a roll on the random psionics chart
The power-level of these suddenly awakend latent abilities would start @ level 1.
which would suck if the PC was, say...6th. level already

Hmm... Maybe a with a reduced chance, since the psionic table is for RIFTS Earth and the 3Galaxies,
where people are under the influce of increased PPE levels for generations.

Also, there is the option of a Super Psi for changing OCC/RCC.

. . .

jaymz wrote:In ship to ship combat the 3g ships would not get into range.
(...)
The only thing different about bottle demon missiles is that hey do nothave a "range" per se but otherwise are in fact treated as missiles for combat purposes (yes they do not end wit one attack but in that regard they are similar in some respects to the automated attack bits of Mac2)

They cannot get into bottled demon range - which is almost infinte?

Sarcasm aside, both the CAF and the TGE uses massive pa/robot/fighter and even shuttle/frigate swarms against
capital ships - so the actual gun range isn't that important.

Now, if a UNS BS is a bit bigger than a Warshield, its mecha contingent is about comparable to 3Galactic ships, ie.
UNS BS - 62 veritech and destroids
Iron Ship - 48 fighters and up to 100 PA
or
2 Smashers - 72 fighters
or
1 Warshield plus 2d4 Scimitars (say 4) - 12+4*6 fighters, 10+4*10 Silverhawk PA plus 4*12 Gorund Pounder PA, 2 Battleram robots

As for the UWW:

Arcane 2 ships have mages because that ship actually needs ppe to do things. Shadowbolts do not. Iron ships having TWs on board is likely to mean they are hte engineers just as you have engineers on board any naval vessel, not as pilots.

So, even if (not when) we accept that Techno Wizards do not sit into starfighters - what prevents them to cast
Invisibility superior and/or Impervious to Energy on their ships? Nothing I can think of.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

DhAkael wrote:At least give the PC / NPC a roll on the random psionics chart
The power-level of these suddenly awakend latent abilities would start @ level 1.
which would suck if the PC was, say...6th. level already

Hmm... Maybe a with a reduced chance, since the psionic table is for RIFTS Earth and the 3Galaxies,
where people are under the influce of increased PPE levels for generations.

Also, there is the option of a Super Psi for changing OCC/RCC.

. . .

jaymz wrote:In ship to ship combat the 3g ships would not get into range.
(...)
The only thing different about bottle demon missiles is that hey do nothave a "range" per se but otherwise are in fact treated as missiles for combat purposes (yes they do not end wit one attack but in that regard they are similar in some respects to the automated attack bits of Mac2)

They cannot get into bottled demon range - which is almost infinte?

Sarcasm aside, both the CAF and the TGE uses massive pa/robot/fighter and even shuttle/frigate swarms against
capital ships - so the actual gun range isn't that important.

Now, if a UNS BS is a bit bigger than a Warshield, its mecha contingent is about comparable to 3Galactic ships, ie.
UNS BS - 62 veritech and destroids
Iron Ship - 48 fighters and up to 100 PA
or
2 Smashers - 72 fighters
or
1 Warshield plus 2d4 Scimitars (say 4) - 12+4*6 fighters, 10+4*10 Silverhawk PA plus 4*12 Gorund Pounder PA, 2 Battleram robots

As for the UWW:

Arcane 2 ships have mages because that ship actually needs ppe to do things. Shadowbolts do not. Iron ships having TWs on board is likely to mean they are hte engineers just as you have engineers on board any naval vessel, not as pilots.

So, even if (not when) we accept that Techno Wizards do not sit into starfighters - what prevents them to cast
Invisibility superior and/or Impervious to Energy on their ships? Nothing I can think of.

Adios
KLM

Other than the fact the ship does not list itself as having it as per canon? They can cast it but it wouldn't do much good to do so just prior to launch as the spell only has a limited duration.

I have already stated the bottled demon missiles are an exception to the range but they still get treated as missiles otherwise.

Also I never said there is anything stopping them from building fighters with inv. sup. into it, but the fact remains there are none as per canon.

Hi there!

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:So, even if (not when) we accept that Techno Wizards do not sit into starfighters - what prevents them to cast
Invisibility superior and/or Impervious to Energy on their ships? Nothing I can think of.

Other than the fact the ship does not list itself as having it as per canon?

Err.... TW goes to the hull - inside the Arcane Mk II. ship - casts Imp. to Energy, and the ship
is impervious to energy, as it is the "delivery system" as per RUE, page 128.

It is the same as firing a Fire Bolt spell thru an ordinary revolver.

Heck, a TW can even turn a Doombringer Impervious to energy, without altering the ship - albeit
only for a few melees (and I would houserule a significant raise in PPE need for the object's size).

But the ship does not have it as canon - yet it still shrugs off a direct hit from a macross canon.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:So, even if (not when) we accept that Techno Wizards do not sit into starfighters - what prevents them to cast
Invisibility superior and/or Impervious to Energy on their ships? Nothing I can think of.

Other than the fact the ship does not list itself as having it as per canon?

Err.... TW goes to the hull - inside the Arcane Mk II. ship - casts Imp. to Energy, and the ship
is impervious to energy, as it is the "delivery system" as per RUE, page 128.

It is the same as firing a Fire Bolt spell thru an ordinary revolver.

Heck, a TW can even turn a Doombringer Impervious to energy, without altering the ship - albeit
only for a few melees (and I would houserule a significant raise in PPE need for the object's size).

But the ship does not have it as canon - yet it still shrugs off a direct hit from a macross canon.

Adios
KLM

I said they COULD cast the spell ONTO the ship but it would have a limited duration...reread my post. i sai hte ship itself however does not have it.

As for Imp To energy yes they could because that is actually PART of the ships design. other wise as is the case with casting any spell onto anything typically, it would have a limited duration of usefulness....and then be susceptible to energy again.

The Shadow bolt does not obviously have that issue since it was built with Imp to energy as part of it.

Mind you most fighters used by the UNS don't use energy weapons so once in fighter v fighter combat the imp to energy becomes relatively moot.

Either way there is no point in us debating as it is obvious neither of us is going to cinvince the other of our individual opnions one way or the other

On the subject of Impervious to Energy, I'm honestly of the opinion that it will not save a UWW ship from the damage dealt by the Macross Cannon's ship grade particle beam. I feel that the amount of energy put forth by this weapon will overwhelm the spell, as if the effects were being canceled out by a higher level spell caster.

keir451 wrote:On the subject of Impervious to Energy, I'm honestly of the opinion that it will not save a UWW ship from the damage dealt by the Macross Cannon's ship grade particle beam. I feel that the amount of energy put forth by this weapon will overwhelm the spell, as if the effects were being canceled out by a higher level spell caster.

If the beam is particles re-entering Normal Space from hyperspace (or sub-space or whatever) and the Imp vs energy on the hull of the ship, the imp. vs E would only save the hull of the ship. Everything of the ship that isn't hull would be vap'ed. (Which would explode taking out the hull.)

If the beam is basicly a big Part. Beam, then there would be no damage to the ship, but all the FF's would be taken out.

However, in my opinion the 'Imp. Vs E.' has to be a part of the ships powers, and not cast on it from the common magic invocation spell 'Imp. vs E.' That spell would not have enough power to effect covering an starship.

If the Pilot of a fighter is a Mage (of any sort), they can cast spells on the fighter they are in.

Hi there!

keir451 wrote:On the subject of Impervious to Energy, I'm honestly of the opinion that it will not save a UWW ship from the damage dealt by the Macross Cannon's ship grade particle beam. I feel that the amount of energy put forth by this weapon will overwhelm the spell, as if the effects were being canceled out by a higher level spell caster.

Not neccessarily - the spell is powerfull enough to protect a naked baby from a full e-clip burst from a particle rifle. Even
that particle rifle from Mechaniods.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If the beam is particles re-entering Normal Space from hyperspace (or sub-space or whatever) and the Imp vs energy on the hull of the ship, the imp. vs E would only save the hull of the ship. Everything of the ship that isn't hull would be vap'ed. (Which would explode taking out the hull.)

Not neccessary - first, the ships' mass will pull out all the energy/particles to normal space before even reaching the hull.
Second, subspace/space fold etc. does not really work in the 3Galaxies - maybe due to the high level of PPE. Therefore
macross canons have a good chance to malfunction.

If the beam is basicly a big Part. Beam, then there would be no damage to the ship, but all the FF's would be taken out.

Except for Invulnerability on the Nexus X battleships, otherwise I agree.

However, in my opinion the 'Imp. Vs E.' has to be a part of the ships powers, and not cast on it from the common magic invocation spell 'Imp. vs E.' That spell would not have enough power to effect covering an starship.

That is why I would houserule a PPE need increase, similar to "Hide in space" spell (DMB13, pg115)

If the Pilot of a fighter is a Mage (of any sort), they can cast spells on the fighter they are in.

Especially a TW.

Adios
KLM

@KLM, Where does it say that fold drives don't work in the 3G setting? Yes, I know the Arkhon's fold drives burnt out upon defolding into Rifts Earth's solar system, but we don't know if they use the same principles as the ones in Macross(none has come up w/an answer better than "house rule it").
I'm treating the P. Beams as if they were cast by mage of higher level than the caster of the Imp. to E. spell, so they overwhelm the "limits" of the caster's spell thus destroying the ship. Now in the fairness of game balance this ONLY applies to the particle beams of this level or geater.

keir451 wrote:@KLM, Where does it say that fold drives don't work in the 3G setting? Yes, I know the Arkhon's fold drives burnt out upon defolding into Rifts Earth's solar system, but we don't know if they use the same principles as the ones in Macross(none has come up w/an answer better than "house rule it").
I'm treating the P. Beams as if they were cast by mage of higher level than the caster of the Imp. to E. spell, so they overwhelm the "limits" of the caster's spell thus destroying the ship. Now in the fairness of game balance this ONLY applies to the particle beams of this level or geater.

I seem to remember that the Arkhon's lost their fold drives because the Solar System particularly around earth is dangerously unstable and such a massive distortion of space like their drives caused triggered a catastrophic rift event. Other than a few worlds explicitly noted that way there aren't any worlds in the Phase World setting that are so heavily rift-aligned or unstable that the Arkhon drives would have problems getting around. Same should go for the spacefold drive for the Robotech-style ships. Don't spacefold near such worlds/locations and you should be fine.

Nightmask wrote:

keir451 wrote:@KLM, Where does it say that fold drives don't work in the 3G setting? Yes, I know the Arkhon's fold drives burnt out upon defolding into Rifts Earth's solar system, but we don't know if they use the same principles as the ones in Macross(none has come up w/an answer better than "house rule it").
I'm treating the P. Beams as if they were cast by mage of higher level than the caster of the Imp. to E. spell, so they overwhelm the "limits" of the caster's spell thus destroying the ship. Now in the fairness of game balance this ONLY applies to the particle beams of this level or geater.

I seem to remember that the Arkhon's lost their fold drives because the Solar System particularly around earth is dangerously unstable and such a massive distortion of space like their drives caused triggered a catastrophic rift event. Other than a few worlds explicitly noted that way there aren't any worlds in the Phase World setting that are so heavily rift-aligned or unstable that the Arkhon drives would have problems getting around. Same should go for the spacefold drive for the Robotech-style ships. Don't spacefold near such worlds/locations and you should be fine.

So I should npot use fold near Phase world? Of course the impression I get is that Rifts Earth is kinda unique in its sheer level of magical energy and the distortions surrounding it.
Anyone else remember the scene in the 1st Startrek movie where the Enterprise encounterd a wornhole? I was thinking that the likely hood of encountering such anomalies would be increased in 3G.

keir451 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

keir451 wrote:@KLM, Where does it say that fold drives don't work in the 3G setting? Yes, I know the Arkhon's fold drives burnt out upon defolding into Rifts Earth's solar system, but we don't know if they use the same principles as the ones in Macross(none has come up w/an answer better than "house rule it").
I'm treating the P. Beams as if they were cast by mage of higher level than the caster of the Imp. to E. spell, so they overwhelm the "limits" of the caster's spell thus destroying the ship. Now in the fairness of game balance this ONLY applies to the particle beams of this level or geater.

I seem to remember that the Arkhon's lost their fold drives because the Solar System particularly around earth is dangerously unstable and such a massive distortion of space like their drives caused triggered a catastrophic rift event. Other than a few worlds explicitly noted that way there aren't any worlds in the Phase World setting that are so heavily rift-aligned or unstable that the Arkhon drives would have problems getting around. Same should go for the spacefold drive for the Robotech-style ships. Don't spacefold near such worlds/locations and you should be fine.

So I should npot use fold near Phase world? Of course the impression I get is that Rifts Earth is kinda unique in its sheer level of magical energy and the distortions surrounding it.
Anyone else remember the scene in the 1st Startrek movie where the Enterprise encounterd a wornhole? I was thinking that the likely hood of encountering such anomalies would be increased in 3G.

I've always thought Phase World was pretty stable when it comes to dimensional anomalies given the large population of powerful beings who work to keep it that way, and Rifts Earth is pretty unique and massively overloaded with PPE and a range of permanent gates and locations that are permanent overlap points bridging several dimensions.

Of course how much risk someone has of hitting such things and losing their spacefold drive completely or being rifted somewhere at random is completely up to the GM how much trouble he wants to cause and how well he feels the group could handle the trouble.

Nightmask wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

keir451 wrote:@KLM, Where does it say that fold drives don't work in the 3G setting? Yes, I know the Arkhon's fold drives burnt out upon defolding into Rifts Earth's solar system, but we don't know if they use the same principles as the ones in Macross(none has come up w/an answer better than "house rule it").
I'm treating the P. Beams as if they were cast by mage of higher level than the caster of the Imp. to E. spell, so they overwhelm the "limits" of the caster's spell thus destroying the ship. Now in the fairness of game balance this ONLY applies to the particle beams of this level or geater.

I seem to remember that the Arkhon's lost their fold drives because the Solar System particularly around earth is dangerously unstable and such a massive distortion of space like their drives caused triggered a catastrophic rift event. Other than a few worlds explicitly noted that way there aren't any worlds in the Phase World setting that are so heavily rift-aligned or unstable that the Arkhon drives would have problems getting around. Same should go for the spacefold drive for the Robotech-style ships. Don't spacefold near such worlds/locations and you should be fine.

So I should npot use fold near Phase world? Of course the impression I get is that Rifts Earth is kinda unique in its sheer level of magical energy and the distortions surrounding it.
Anyone else remember the scene in the 1st Startrek movie where the Enterprise encounterd a wornhole? I was thinking that the likely hood of encountering such anomalies would be increased in 3G.

I've always thought Phase World was pretty stable when it comes to dimensional anomalies given the large population of powerful beings who work to keep it that way, and Rifts Earth is pretty unique and massively overloaded with PPE and a range of permanent gates and locations that are permanent overlap points bridging several dimensions.

Of course how much risk someone has of hitting such things and losing their spacefold drive completely or being rifted somewhere at random is completely up to the GM how much trouble he wants to cause and how well he feels the group could handle the trouble.

Well I'm not going to have their fold drives fry every time they encounter one, it's more a way for me to throw them off course every so often. This way I can get them into screwy situations w/out (hopefully) killing them.

Fold drives do work in PW. See the "invaders" section Of RDB3.

keir451:
DMB 2, page 152, under the FTL Propulsion.

The description says, that the 3G use three methods (magic, CG, phase) and other cultures in the Megaverse (ie. other dimensions) developed the space-fold drive but that system is dangerous and very likely to malfunction in the Three Galaxies. Noone know why this is happen (some blame the Forge, others think the PPE rich enviroment is the main problem).

The invaders came from the same dimension just another galaxy so the s-f drive they use are OK (they designed it in a PPE rich enviroment/dimension). But the s-f drives used by the Macross/Robotech universe are tends to not work in the 3G (malfunctions, misjumps, no jumps, even disasters may happen each time the drive is used). Sometimes (rarely) it may work but most of the time the drive system will not work.
In short, s-f drives works in the Three Galaxies, but those came from other dimensions (from the Megaverse) may not work or tends to malfunction most of the time (ie. we could say those systems are not works).

sagajr wrote:The invaders came from the same dimension just another galaxy so the s-f drive they use are OK (they designed it in a PPE rich enviroment/dimension).

The Invaders are also speculated to be minions of an Alien Intelligence, so their fold drives can be based on magic
or psionic (even if this theory of the Sploogies proves to be wrong - thought IMO Sploogies are very rarely wrong.
At least the ones older than 10 thousand years...)

Another point is that we do not know, how often their drives malfunction.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

sagajr wrote:The invaders came from the same dimension just another galaxy so the s-f drive they use are OK (they designed it in a PPE rich enviroment/dimension).

The Invaders are also speculated to be minions of an Alien Intelligence, so their fold drives can be based on magic
or psionic (even if this theory of the Sploogies proves to be wrong - thought IMO Sploogies are very rarely wrong.
At least the ones older than 10 thousand years...)

Another point is that we do not know, how often their drives malfunction.

Adios
KLM

I'd hazard it in the range of 50/50

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:

sagajr wrote:The invaders came from the same dimension just another galaxy so the s-f drive they use are OK (they designed it in a PPE rich enviroment/dimension).

The Invaders are also speculated to be minions of an Alien Intelligence, so their fold drives can be based on magic
or psionic (even if this theory of the Sploogies proves to be wrong - thought IMO Sploogies are very rarely wrong.
At least the ones older than 10 thousand years...)

Another point is that we do not know, how often their drives malfunction.

Adios
KLM

I'd hazard it in the range of 50/50

As long as humans are involved (like with the SDF-3) they'd adapt and learn how to adjust their spacefold systems to be unaffected by the environment. Since others have perfectly safe spacefold systems they could adapt in time as well. Those humans are extremely adaptable (look how they built a FF that could take hundreds of thousands of MD without collapsing by studying the anomaly left after the SDF-1 lost its Spacefold engine) and would learn how to make things safe within a year or two given their general adaptability shown in the anime.

Hi there!

Invaders' fold drive:

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:Another point is that we do not know, how often their drives malfunction.

I'd hazard it in the range of 50/50

Maybe, but malfunction would not be equal to losing the ship - maybe a random
table, which begins like
- just throws the ship away a few light years
- the ship reappears within a 100 or so miles
- does not function
(...)
- fold drive dissapears
(...)
- ship lost (ripped apart or arrives into a star/black hole, etc.)

---
As for adapting fold drives... Maybe possible, maybe not.

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:Hi there!

Invaders' fold drive:

jaymz wrote:

KLM wrote:Another point is that we do not know, how often their drives malfunction.

I'd hazard it in the range of 50/50

Maybe, but malfunction would not be equal to losing the ship -

Agreed my guess was just for a "malfunction" nothing more.

What, this again? Deja vu...went over this in the Zentraedi vs 3Gs thread.


I know of three statements which deal with fold drives in the 3Gs. The first is the infamous one from DB2, that fold drives are used by other megaversal cultures, but they are unreliable in the 3Gs. It then gives a couple of reasons (the Cosmic Forge or magic) for why this might be so. Most seem to assume that this means no fold drives at all can ever work reliably in the 3Gs, though it is possible to interpret it other ways. It could simply mean that while cultures in other parts of the megaverse get them to work, cultures native to the 3Gs make unreliable fold drives.

The second statement is in DB3. The Intruders use powerful fold drives reliably. They are described as having other tech beyond what the 3Gs are capable of, which is theoretically the justification for them having this system work. Taken to its logical conclusion, fold drives aren't inoperable in the 3Gs...but no one known operating in the 3Gs before the Intruders had gotten them to work.

A third blurb on fold drives is in DB6. There it states that fold drives are rumored to be used by the Intruders. In other words, either the races of the 3Gs are starting to suspect that's how the Intruders get about, or certain folk in the 3Gs know that's how they get about but are trying to keep it quiet and the info is only around in the form or rumors. Then it states that fold drives are being explored by 3G races, but they can't get them to work. Not everyone everywhere in the megaverse; the 3G races can't get fold drives to work. It then goes on to say that the theory is that antimatter used to power the system destabilizes it. If this theory is true, it has very strong implications for fold-drive-using races that don't rely on antimatter for the massive power requirements of fold drives.

So, can a theoretical Macross fleet fold in the 3Gs? The answer is definitely maybe.

Okay here's my two cents.Other then the Zentrans and Meltrans no one else in the Macross side will have mdc for hit points.The kregor's and Machine people do.Heaven help the veritech jock who has to face a machine person that's flying a silverhawk or a Katana.The phase weapons would also be a key factor in the fighting.Anyway that's just my two cents.

batlchip wrote:Okay here's my two cents.Other then the Zentrans and Meltrans no one else in the Macross side will have mdc for hit points.The kregor's and Machine people do.Heaven help the veritech jock who has to face a machine person that's flying a silverhawk or a Katana.The phase weapons would also be a key factor in the fighting.Anyway that's just my two cents.

That's a given. Normal humans and micronized Zentraedi are still "squishies" even a full sized Zentran is no match for the PA & robot units in ANY Palladium setting (except Breetai 'cause he rules ).
As far as fold drives operating in 3G, I'm working on the idea that initially the fold drives will be burned out, it will take the Macross engineers about a year to repair/replace all the fleet's Fold Drives. After that the fold drives will be functional, but encounters with wormholes and other spacial/dimensional anomalies will probably throw the ship off course.