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Shinitenshi wrote:Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

Zer0 wrote:You forgot that a veritable pantheon exists in the "monotheistic" Judeo-Christian God... after all how many names does He have? Jehova Jira, Abba Father, YHWH, Adonai, El, Elah, Eloah, Elohim, El Roi, El Shaddai, Elyon, etc...

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

AkSold wrote:A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities.

llywelyn wrote:This also sounds like an awesome NPC.

Rappanui wrote:Just to address a few issues:
1. Christian god/judaic God/Islamic God are NOT the same god.
They were declared so by people wishing to end holy wars.
2. Each Abrahamic religion actually worships a totally different being. Judaic god says you are measured against your sins. Christian God says you are "Saved" if you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior. Islamic god says you go to heaven if you become the most awful warlord and convert the most followers. The Buddhist God says wanting to convert others and not balancing your sins will send you to hell and the only way out is to become enlightened and not need for selfish ventures.
3. The Rifts Version of Creation is the Demi Urge Model - A Supreme Entity Created the Multi Verse. He left Lesser Entities in charge. The Old Ones were In charge of One Half, the Gods of Light and Dark the other half. Sentient Races began creating more gods.
4. A Rifts Priest would have power, but not the same kind as a pagan priest. I'd say they are the equivalent of Psi Mystics , or NegaPsychics.. With Kabbalistic types being more skilled in Summoning.
Islamic " Magic " is entirely based on dreaming, trances, so on. Their faith gives them power, but not because "God" Gave them it, but because Living Beings are able to will into power supernatural things due to the nature of that multiverse.
5. Jesus as he existed in the bible, Was not the first person who had some son of god background. Nearly Every major religion had at least one person who had a history similar to "jesus" but all ended quite differently.

in Babylonian mythology, it was Enoch. In Egyptian Mythology it was Horus-Ra, In Appalachian mythology it was Hiawatha, in Greek mythology it was Dionisus, in Roman Mythology it was Mars. Every major religion believes in a 2nd coming of some lord.

Rappanui wrote:1. Christian god/judaic God/Islamic God are NOT the same god. They were declared so by people wishing to end holy wars.

Buddhist God

3. The Rifts Version of Creation is the Demi Urge Model - A Supreme Entity Created the Multi Verse. He left Lesser Entities in charge. The Old Ones were In charge of One Half, the Gods of Light and Dark the other half. Sentient Races began creating more gods.

Rappanui wrote:Educate on which matters?
1. the different abrahamic gods in the various religions... This is easy to understand, if you stopped being politically correct. A While ago, there was a meeting between the pope, a Bishop representing the presbytereans and Some Other council Declared they all worshipped the same deity - in the interest of trying to preserve some form of world peace.This happened back around 1965.

2. Demi urge Model of Creation says that the Demi Urge Created the universe. but it was so powerful it could not control what it had created so it split itself into 2 forces.

the other creation model says there is no god,but human minds create multiverses just by thinking it. this is the model preached by Quantum Mechanics.
3. Making Priests of monotheistic religions psychic is totally in line with what we see today in the modern world. Miracles and what not are the realm of quackery, not metascience.

4. Everything in the King james Bible is a Lie put together by the First Convetion of the Niacenes. It was created 300 years after the death of jesus. all sorts of heresies and stories were put forth and finalized together by a group of 300 Bishops and Christian Nobles of ROME. Not any Divine hand.

Akashic Soldier wrote:[size=170]

...humans are just naked apes.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Well it was good while as it lasted

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Rappanui wrote:as for the Buddhist God statement: This is purely based on the japanese/Korean Model of Buddhism, where they believe Buddha will come again to offer humans final enlightenment against those that would lead people astray ( those who gain psychic power by dealing with devils, At least in one particular Silly Movie, Rebirth of Buddha)

Only India/Nepal follow the No Deity model of buddhism, and the rest of the asian countries added their own changes. (Buddhists don't have No God, They just don't think it matters in terms of enlightenment)

Winterhawk wrote:I have been thinking about this thread a little bit since my last few posts and came up with what I thought was an interesting idea for adventure and thought I would share it.

The PC's start to hear rumors of Jesus coming back to earth, he is located in a small town (that was previously know as a violent crime ridden hole in the ground) relatively near where the PC's are. (I was thinking somewhere in the new west) They start hearing about miracles, and unbelievable healing, etc.. They start to see & met people from all over traveling the countryside to go see this new Jesus.

If/When they go to the town they will hear about how wonderful he is, that not only has Jesus that has returned but also the 12 apostles and any other biblical figure you may want. The town has this Person very heavily guarded but he and the apostles do walk around the city and speak and meet with the people preaching and providing sermons to the people. Each Sunday in the cities old arena (now converted to be a church). Jesus does large sermons that involve healing. Such as but not including, total detox of Juicers, regeneration of lost limbs, etc. in front of everyone. The people that get healed are chosen by Jesus during the sermon from those in the crowds and are generally people of true faith in him; he doesn't seem to differentiate between most D-bees and humans as long as they believe. He even preaches about tolerance and equality.

On the Sunday in question the sermon is attacked by a demon/or demons, Jesus and the apostles are able to erect a force field to protect everyone in the arena and are also able open a rift in the sky that sucks the demon/demons into it with no harm or damage to anyone in attendance. Word of this spreads like wildfire.

Shortly after these events Jesus announces a pilgrimage across the country. At this time as well rumors about the CS becoming interested in Jesus and the followers is coming back and that the CS believe that he is dangerous, a liar, deranged, magic using and a demon himself. (Mostly because they are having people from inside their towns and cities start believing what he is preaching and some are starting to ask questions, with a small movement wanting to leave the CS and go to him.) The CS at this point beyond the rumors are going to be sending out spies and plants before deciding what to do, but at this point they do not like what they are hearing and believe this Jesus to be a deluded and dangerous magic user.

Jesus starts his trek across the country he starts picking up massive amounts of followers in each village. The security around him is becoming better and better all the time as he picks up more and more followers. Also the Jesus and the 12 are able to pick up spies and people/d-bees planning on doing no good almost instantly. If the attackers are not Monsters or demons, they are almost always captured or allowed to escape (never killed) to have a private talk with Jesus, when they are seen again they have become devote followers. During the pilgrimage Jesus and Company are never attacked by any real sizable force (unless something the players do or uncover demands it)

What is really going on? GM section

An alien intelligence wants to get onto Rifts earth. Using similar tactics to the AI in England know as Merlin by pretending to be a savoir of mankind/d-beekind.

This fake Jesus is the main splinter essence of the AI, the 12 are also.

The faith healing provided are actually the AI spreading its essence out (like creating secondary vampires) how ever they of course are not vampires.

I haven't thought of the full list of powers or stats or anything at this point, just thinking mostly of story ideas except that all the splinter essences have the ability to mask their true aura, so that they appear how they want to appear. able to alter the level, ppe, isp, class etc. to those with means of sensing or viewing them. And the main essences will be able to read minds of those hostile towards them, planning against them. As well as spell abilities.

Those that are captured from attacked are also converted into splinter essences of the AI.

Once the AI has enough followers it will rift to this world, That is why Jesus started to travel, They are headed to a powerful nexus point (i was thinking the magic zone). Once there a shrine (ie pyramid) will begin construction once construction is complete and their are enough followers the AI will port itself over, to straddle itself in both our dimension and it's home dimension.

Once the AI gets itself to rifts earth things will turn/change and the need to hide it's real intent will longer be there.

Will the players be able to figure it out before or after the AI gets to rifts earth.
Will the CS get infected, by the time they figure it out will it be to late.
Will the players help the CS, will the CS help the players.
Will other NA factions help?
If your world has already had the Juicer uprisings how willing will they be to try another "cure".
What will the ramifications be on the followers that were not turned when they find out it was a lie and a trap.
Will the players get converted into AI essences.
Will a major crisis of faith follow these events across the world.

Winterhawk wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:I might have to steal this I love it

If you do I would love to hear how it played out.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Because the world angel is a was translated from Elohim which as you know means.. well blah blah blah. Sorry I missed this question earlier, I didn't see it. As for a specific verse I remember content and struggle with specific verses but if I recall correctly there is no verse saying that angels do not have free will but there should be a verse about humanity being the greatest of God's creatures and something mentioned around the time that the apostles are filled with the fire of the Holy Spirit. I actually started reading John against last week because my biblical fuu had gotten rusty so this is a good reason for me to go back over the book again.

That said, no one should take my word for it. Go look into these things yourself, seek the truth, find where the hands have men have robbed us of biblical truth and seek, seek, seek! The truth is out there for those who look for it.

EDIT: Added

Zer0 Kay wrote:Starts with a sunglasses emote?? you mean Baal? Baal wasn't red. Baal simply means lord in Hebrew and could refer to any number of pagan gods that the ancient Hebrew people regularly adopted durring their frequent periods of religious rebellion.

Weaving a crop circle... uh... okay. Don't you mean Mallifactorum?

Yes I did and no I didn't mean Baal. I am not an idiot. Everyone knows Baal. Its like Berfemot, I believe?

Here is the image I had mentioned:

The Mowing Devil

Nightmask wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Just noting the contradiction in Akashic's statement that all the fallen have no free will, when free will is a requirement to fall because you have to be capable of saying 'no' to defy God and fall. If the main fallen can defy God when called upon to bow to God's creation and the rest choose to follow him over God then they must have free will just like God's other creation. At worst you just see it that God was extra displeased with them defying him since Mankind has lived in the flesh whereas the angels have all lived on the higher plane with God and knew far better the cost of breaking the rules.

Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Oh I got that, I just have a tendency to respond and repeat myself for some reason at random, no idea why. I realize it can be confusing at times, one of those quirks I can't seem to eliminate. Oh well, we all have our little quirks.

I haven't read a bible in some time but I do seem to remember that the Fallen do have that chance of repenting (not surprising, why would God offer it to Man but not his first creations? ) but can't bring themselves to doing so. Depending on which Satan if it's the one that tortured Job then he's still doing his job, considering he and the rest of the fallen are still running around tempting humans and testing their faith, maybe because he just can't find it in him to choose not to and in some twisted way is still trying to prove himself to his creator.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

I did the same thing but I'm a atheist

Winterhawk wrote:I have been thinking about this thread a little bit since my last few posts and came up with what I thought was an interesting idea for adventure and thought I would share it.

The PC's start to hear rumors of Jesus coming back to earth, he is located in a small town (that was previously know as a violent crime ridden hole in the ground) relatively near where the PC's are. (I was thinking somewhere in the new west) They start hearing about miracles, and unbelievable healing, etc.. They start to see & met people from all over traveling the countryside to go see this new Jesus.

If/When they go to the town they will hear about how wonderful he is, that not only has Jesus that has returned but also the 12 apostles and any other biblical figure you may want. The town has this Person very heavily guarded but he and the apostles do walk around the city and speak and meet with the people preaching and providing sermons to the people. Each Sunday in the cities old arena (now converted to be a church). Jesus does large sermons that involve healing. Such as but not including, total detox of Juicers, regeneration of lost limbs, etc. in front of everyone. The people that get healed are chosen by Jesus during the sermon from those in the crowds and are generally people of true faith in him; he doesn't seem to differentiate between most D-bees and humans as long as they believe. He even preaches about tolerance and equality.

On the Sunday in question the sermon is attacked by a demon/or demons, Jesus and the apostles are able to erect a force field to protect everyone in the arena and are also able open a rift in the sky that sucks the demon/demons into it with no harm or damage to anyone in attendance. Word of this spreads like wildfire.

Shortly after these events Jesus announces a pilgrimage across the country. At this time as well rumors about the CS becoming interested in Jesus and the followers is coming back and that the CS believe that he is dangerous, a liar, deranged, magic using and a demon himself. (Mostly because they are having people from inside their towns and cities start believing what he is preaching and some are starting to ask questions, with a small movement wanting to leave the CS and go to him.) The CS at this point beyond the rumors are going to be sending out spies and plants before deciding what to do, but at this point they do not like what they are hearing and believe this Jesus to be a deluded and dangerous magic user.

Jesus starts his trek across the country he starts picking up massive amounts of followers in each village. The security around him is becoming better and better all the time as he picks up more and more followers. Also the Jesus and the 12 are able to pick up spies and people/d-bees planning on doing no good almost instantly. If the attackers are not Monsters or demons, they are almost always captured or allowed to escape (never killed) to have a private talk with Jesus, when they are seen again they have become devote followers. During the pilgrimage Jesus and Company are never attacked by any real sizable force (unless something the players do or uncover demands it)

What is really going on? GM section

An alien intelligence wants to get onto Rifts earth. Using similar tactics to the AI in England know as Merlin by pretending to be a savoir of mankind/d-beekind.

This fake Jesus is the main splinter essence of the AI, the 12 are also.

The faith healing provided are actually the AI spreading its essence out (like creating secondary vampires) how ever they of course are not vampires.

I haven't thought of the full list of powers or stats or anything at this point, just thinking mostly of story ideas except that all the splinter essences have the ability to mask their true aura, so that they appear how they want to appear. able to alter the level, ppe, isp, class etc. to those with means of sensing or viewing them. And the main essences will be able to read minds of those hostile towards them, planning against them. As well as spell abilities.

Those that are captured from attacked are also converted into splinter essences of the AI.

Once the AI has enough followers it will rift to this world, That is why Jesus started to travel, They are headed to a powerful nexus point (i was thinking the magic zone). Once there a shrine (ie pyramid) will begin construction once construction is complete and their are enough followers the AI will port itself over, to straddle itself in both our dimension and it's home dimension.

Once the AI gets itself to rifts earth things will turn/change and the need to hide it's real intent will longer be there.

Will the players be able to figure it out before or after the AI gets to rifts earth.
Will the CS get infected, by the time they figure it out will it be to late.
Will the players help the CS, will the CS help the players.
Will other NA factions help?
If your world has already had the Juicer uprisings how willing will they be to try another "cure".
What will the ramifications be on the followers that were not turned when they find out it was a lie and a trap.
Will the players get converted into AI essences.
Will a major crisis of faith follow these events across the world.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Everybody has to follow their own path in the world.

I know I am going to sound like a total ***** but sometimes I wish that I had company. Just once I wish someone could tell me something I didn't already know or teach me something or save me. If I have any "weakness" it is just that I don't have a very good relationship with Jesus. I know who he is and what he done but I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling everyone talks about and it gets lonely and thats not supposed to happen if you are tight with Christ apparently. I can see why everything is happening and why God does what he does and find out why easily enough and recognize Truth from lies but the personal relationship with God and the Holy Spirit is something I struggle with.

Anyways, this isn't Why is Akashic Soldier a Christian or What do you believe its Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth? so lets get back to that topic before I go getting all esoteric again.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Well it was good while as it lasted

llywelyn wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

Except that's dualism. It's always been a very popular heresy, but the orthodox version is AS and Zer0's takes above - the devil is always ultimately a servant of the one Lord.

Zer0 wrote:You forgot that a veritable pantheon exists in the "monotheistic" Judeo-Christian God... after all how many names does He have? Jehova Jira, Abba Father, YHWH, Adonai, El, Elah, Eloah, Elohim, El Roi, El Shaddai, Elyon, etc...

Nah. I talked about the gnostic traditions and the idea of splitting the OT god into smaller deities, but didn't dwell on it. Taking the Biblical G-d in the direction of an elohim council of "Mighty Ones" could be interesting, but easily objectionable.

You're right that Baal is "Lord", but he was also a very specific Canaanite / Ugaritic Deity.

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

Nah. Dante's Satan was awesome: stuck in a pit of body-studded ice - the worst sinners are the coldly rational traitors and backstabbers - munching on Judas, Brutus, and Cassius for all eternity. (Although it's been my personal opinion since Sunday school that Judas got a raw deal, given that the crucifixion had to happen...)

Speaking of old Xian myths: the Wandering Jew would be an interesting plot device, if it could be kept from anti-semitism.

AkSold wrote:A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities.

This also sounds like an awesome NPC.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Well it was good while as it lasted

Dang it why'd that guy come in. I thought we were all getting along. Oh well. In again before lock.

Winterhawk wrote:[Cool story]

Winterhawk wrote:[Cool story]

Akashic Soldier wrote:As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Nightmask wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Not-Locked-Count 1

As i understand it, no monotheistic religions are covered. because they don't fit in the setting or story. one all-powerful, all-knowing and incomprehensible being who controls everything and can never be challenged is boring and uncreative. it lends nothing to the game. it lacks anything relating to humanity. which is who the game is for. the polytheistic pantheons have gods with many human characteristics and refining qualities. and are known for being capable for exceptional mortals to defeat. much more interesting to the average gamer.

you can smack talk yahweh, allah, and the budda all day to try and get them to fight you. but they are everything, including you, and if they ever even paid attention to you, you would be rent from existence by accident. to look upon them is to be destroyed in body and mind. you couldnt even comprehend the powers leveled against you.

but that asura guy? or ares? or even thor? you smack talk them, and its time to throw down. if you are a bad enough dude, you might even win. and they'll respect you for that. it would be glorious. it makes a damn fine story. and its fun as all get out, even if you fail.


and polytheistic followers aren't known for crusades, suicide bombings, and death threats. they are a bit more laid back. they dont sue, they dont threaten you, and they wont kill you for looking at their god wrong.

so you will never see palladium touch monotheism.

The only reason the polytheistic followers aren't known for suicide bombings is because their faiths were reduced to nearly nothing long before gunpowder really existed, and they managed to crusade just fine and didn't bother with death threats they just spread death when they felt the faith called for it. Those who've revived the faith today have done so while looking back at the scope of history and chosen to not engage in such behavior, just as Christianity grew out of as it realized it wasn't being true to its bible saying one thing and doing another.

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Christianity may have grown out of it, but Christians haven't. Muslims either. also, the reason for why polytheistic religions haven't done anything too nasty in a while isn't important. its the fact that the monotheistic ones have. palladium is afraid of reprisals by people who lack common sense and are so fanatically out of their minds that they violate their own scriptures, in the name of their scriptures.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Good thinking!

Also for the hell of it you might as well say that the AI was responsible for enslaving the Jews in Egypt in times long past. Why not?

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Good thinking!

Also for the hell of it you might as well say that the AI was responsible for enslaving the Jews in Egypt in times long past. Why not?

Make it look like a sphinx! (The original sphinx god?)

You could do the whole storyline as Yeats's "The Second Coming"

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,*
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction,** while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.***

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

*Coming of the Rifts
**Erin Tarn on Tolkeen
***Prosek on anything

Winterhawk wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:
That is good, but remember in the beginning (God said let there be light, sorry I started and had to go there) you mention that the players hear about Jesus. Remember it can't just be by name most characters have no knowledge of who Jesus is.

I would disagree with that. Take a look at our culture. Even little kids know who Zeus or Hades. They know about Odin and Thor, etc. Those were thousands of years from now. Rifts earth is only about 300 to 400 years from now. Plus you have entire cultures based on western films, lots of pre-rifts movies being shown in theaters and small towns. I would be amazed if the players didn't know who it was by name. Even if the player was a few weeks old hatching. They know about multiple figures from the USA history, but not the name of one of the Key figures from a Major religion that had spanned more then a 1000 years. I am going to say I don't buy that one.

Nightmask wrote:I think the idea of 'second coming of Jesus being just an alien intelligence' to be on the tacky end, referring back to an earlier post. I don't see where it'd be that entertaining (unless you had the real Jesus show up to deal with the fake). Plus not like Palladium hasn't already taken a noble tale from history/mythology and had its 'second coming' presented as nothing more than a plot by an alien intelligence (the reborn Camelot in Rifts: England).

In fact, surely there's a list somewhere of all the Alien Intelligences who've shown up so far and the various people they've pretended to be.

llywelyn wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Christianity may have grown out of it, but Christians haven't. Muslims either. also, the reason for why polytheistic religions haven't done anything too nasty in a while isn't important. its the fact that the monotheistic ones have. palladium is afraid of reprisals by people who lack common sense and are so fanatically out of their minds that they violate their own scriptures, in the name of their scriptures.

As mentioned above, this is nonsense.

It's simply a lie to say polytheists are more peaceful. Even ignoring the historical cases (and Roman persecution was central to both Judaism and Christianity's development), Japanese Buddhists have terror groups; so do the Tibetans. The Hindu Tamil Tigers have recently been largely defeated (as in, within the last 2-3 years) but for decades pioneered suicide bombing, operated attack aircraft, and assassinated the presidents of both India and Sri Lanka.

Moreover, some Christian group might boycott Palladium; they're not going to attack anyone. It's legitimate that some Muslims have been giving the others a very bad reputation over the past few decades (Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Dutch cartoons...) and that Islam is very, very overdue for a Reformation - getting too deep into that likely would violate forum rules, aside from being off topic. But while Detroit has one of America's largest Muslim communities, KS & co. prolly know some and doubtless know that the troublemaking ones are a very, very small minority; the worst they'd expect in America would be being sued or threatened. Hell, while I'm sure they aren't interested in the agita, the publicity might even make them money and raise their profile enough (if they were in the right) to get the movie back out of development hell.

But I'm not sure how that discussion has bearing on the topic, unless you just wanted to point out that any bad stuff we could say about one religion (and atheist Communism killed more in the last 100 years than any of the other ones, possibly more than all of them put together; some atheist environmentalists write hopefully of removing the "stain" of humanity from the world) applies to the others. Any group of humans convinced they have The One Answer has to fight real hard not to be willing to hurt plenty of others to defend their Truth. But I think we all know that.

Speaking of Commies, though: Anyone know (a) how repressive the Sovietski is of the faithful? or (b) how to deal with the book calling the Russian Christians "Catholic"? Should we just ignore that as bad writing or assume that there was finally an ecumenical reunion of the faiths, just in time for the Coming of the Rifts to fragment it back into a thousand pieces?

Akashic Soldier wrote:Don't you love it when adventures write themselves. Hit me with some Neo-Apostles concepts and I'll see it together and run it next weekend for my group. Should be interesting.

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I didnt say [polytheists] were more peaceful. I siad they hadn't done anything too heinous in recent years that reached common knowledge.

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Don't you love it when adventures write themselves. Hit me with some Neo-Apostles concepts and I'll see it together and run it next weekend for my group. Should be interesting.

If you're keeping the tone of the original:

Stone: Well-meaning and the most devout, "Jesus"'s favorite. Powerful, but not the brightest. Dbee (grackletooth?).

Manley: Stone's little brother or brother-in-law. Poor but honest. Seeking (already tried a different cult, maybe Dragonwright, and got let down). Same race as Stone.

Hoss: Grew up with Stone & Manley. Magician, learning from "Jesus".

Ptolemy: Friend of Hoss's, an Adna scholar or an Elven ex-battle mage who met him out Ohio way when Hoss was seeking (but didn't find?) Dweomer.

Cal: Tolkeen refugee. Hothead advising "Jesus" to use his powers to destroy their enemies, gently rebuffed.

Joanna: Cal's sister. Psionic, with visions.

Leo: Cal's son. Burster with a thing for cudgels.

"Tio": Used to be Theodore. Human in his late twenties. Former Coalition Deadboy who went AWOL in Pecos over some of the craziness going on in Lone Star. Can't abide the CS and looking for alternatives, since he's worried as hell about Mexico and the bugs up north.

Tiny: Theo's little brother, worships him & very worried about keeping him safe from the CS. Huge.

Dido: Powerful female priest. A separate splinter of the intelligence who both teaches his gospel separately and questions how well "Jesus" fits the "prophesies". Although seems to be independent and sometimes challenging, is used to sniff out dissent and questioning.

Ihuda: A wolfen trying to manage his anger over the Coalition, after fighting them in Tolkeen or Colorado. Having seen the horrors of war, hopes "Jesus" does represent a better path. Well-meaning, but very literal. Clever, willing to question the logic in "Jesus"'s plans a little more than the rest.

Qana: Another wolfen who previously fought beside Ihuda, whom she's attracted to but has never had the courage to talk to (he thinks she's fine, but is focused on trying to work through his own issues).

flatline wrote:[excellent alternative]

Akashic Soldier wrote:Not grackle tooth, Brutosaur.

Giant wrote:Bread and wine

flatline wrote:Introduce a human named Jesus. Have him preach all the "be nice, turn the other cheek, don't expect a reward in this life" stuff from the gospel.

DON'T HAVE HIM DO ANYTHING EXCEPT MINOR MIRACLES AND TALK TO PEOPLE!

The point isn't to see how Jesus can change things. The point is to see how the mere presence of Jesus can change things as cults form around him and against him and how each power chooses to respond to his message.

Unless his followers are formidable and vigilant, I would expect it to be pretty simple for someone to kill him (he's an SDC human with very minor magical abilities, after all). If he is killed, three days later he appears somewhere else and starts all over again as if nothing has happened. And he won't hold a grudge.

Don't ever confirm one way or the other if he's the real Jesus or not. When asked directly, he'll avoid answering (as I recall, the gospel never mentions Jesus saying he's the son of God or king of the jews. it's always someone else making that claim).

How big an effect you want him to have on the setting is entirely up to you and/or your players, depending on how they respond and how you run the NPCs.

Seems like an easy way to add a new flavor to the Rifts setting. If you want to.

--flatline

llywelyn wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Not grackle tooth, Brutosaur.

So then Stony can even be the smartest of his race and its still works. Plus they're very accepting of other races and have clans down Pecos way, which gives them a place for the AI to pick them up or a reason for them to have been travelling together if the adventure starts somewhere else. The MA could be higher, but then I guess Peter doesn't really come off all that well on his own in the original version...

Still, "child bride"?

Giant wrote:Bread and wine

Only after the ritual of transubstantiation (50 P.P.E.),* and only Catholic and Orthodox seminaries are able to teach the ritual. We aren't sure how many survived, although presumably there are some in Free Quebec and at the outpost of Noutry Daim in the wasteland east of Chi-Town.

Normal bread and wine have always just been that.


*Off the top of my head: 6th level, enough for 10 people / level of the caster, dispels curses & illusions, ingestion causes 6d6 HP of damage to the undead or 2d4*10 MD to creatures of supernatural evil.

TechnoGothic wrote:

flatline wrote:Introduce a human named Jesus. Have him preach all the "be nice, turn the other cheek, don't expect a reward in this life" stuff from the gospel.

DON'T HAVE HIM DO ANYTHING EXCEPT MINOR MIRACLES AND TALK TO PEOPLE!

The point isn't to see how Jesus can change things. The point is to see how the mere presence of Jesus can change things as cults form around him and against him and how each power chooses to respond to his message.

Unless his followers are formidable and vigilant, I would expect it to be pretty simple for someone to kill him (he's an SDC human with very minor magical abilities, after all). If he is killed, three days later he appears somewhere else and starts all over again as if nothing has happened. And he won't hold a grudge.

Don't ever confirm one way or the other if he's the real Jesus or not. When asked directly, he'll avoid answering (as I recall, the gospel never mentions Jesus saying he's the son of God or king of the jews. it's always someone else making that claim).

How big an effect you want him to have on the setting is entirely up to you and/or your players, depending on how they respond and how you run the NPCs.

Seems like an easy way to add a new flavor to the Rifts setting. If you want to.

--flatline

Have to pronounce his name "HEY ZUES" instead of "Geeze Us" though. Just to see if the Players are Quick on the uptake.

Lucifer_Drake wrote:I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

Rappanui wrote:I do think it would be fun to run the Rifts campaign into a modified version of the Various old and new testament stories (alot like KING did on NBC) but you have to remind all players it's not an assault on their religion. it's a game damn it, and even Comic books have "god" in it.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lucifer_Drake wrote:I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

Zer0 Kay wrote:"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a hellenization of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘),