Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:32 pm**

Nether wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

This would be the way to go, but the CS's track record would most definitely show that they will slaughter civilian or military alike, there is no difference for them.

So if Tolkeen had military bases outside of the city, the CS would have most definitely nuked them too, and it would have been easier as no military defense. We all know it is a common MO for the CS to kill anyone they dont like, ie dbee villages ext.

If that's a given, and the military was put in and around the city on purpose. Then "Hitting civilians" can't be used as a complaint. If your military is indistinguishable from your civilians, then all targets are military.

Sucks for the guy selling hotdogs.. but when there's troops standing there in armor buying them from his stand... he gets hit when the bombs fall.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:33 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Nether wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

This would be the way to go, but the CS's track record would most definitely show that they will slaughter civilian or military alike, there is no difference for them.

So if Tolkeen had military bases outside of the city, the CS would have most definitely nuked them too, and it would have been easier as no military defense. We all know it is a common MO for the CS to kill anyone they dont like, ie dbee villages ext.

Actualy the fact that they had the miltary bases inside the city had notihng to do with the CS and every thing to do with you defend a city in Rifts from every day threats. Now the base was focused in a small part and the CS bombing both nucler and non nucler target both civilian and military targets. The nukes used as recal from SOT 6 where small taticle LRM many where fired at the dragon city.
Not leaving your home or fleeing to a walled citty when some one burns your town does not make you a military target.

The base wasn't a small part. They were spread out all through and around the city. The city WAS the base. You're talking about a war of snipers. Not a full out war. And that's not what happened.

When you put your military IN your city, you can't cry when your city is bombed, as your military made your city a military target.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:34 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:BOTH wanted the war...

There's a difference between wanting a war and accepting that a war is unavoidable.

Clearly, the CS wanted the war. I've heard no evidence that Tolkeen wanted the war.

Convince me.

--flatline

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:36 pm**

flatline wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Intention means nothing if they nuked a planet full of peaceful people.

No, intention is exactly the crux of the matter.

You can't seriously believe that there's no difference between killing someone on purpose and killing someone accidentally. Sure, the result is the same: someone is dead, but one is murder and the other is an accident (maybe negligent manslaughter if you could have reasonably avoided it).

And I don't have the books so I can't see the exact text, but when I hear the words "presumed X", I assume that no evidence was found contrary to X and, unless otherwise specified, a good faith effort was made to verify X.

--flatline

My point was if you don't look, and throw the grenade into a school and kill 50 kids. You still killed 50 kids. If you meant to or not doesn't matter..... TO THE KIDS.... or TO THE KIDS FAMILYS.

Is there a difference? yes. I agree there is. But if through your action you killed them, it's still partially your fault. Not 100%. someone threw the grenade at you after all, but YOU threw it at someone else.

Did Tolkeen TRY and nuke someone else? Noooooo I don't think they tried to.

Did they act recklessly with magic, putting their own lives first? Yes.

And that's all i've said. They didn't KNOW if they were hitting people or not, so if they DID, it's bad.

Acting in such a fashion is highly irresponsible. And if they DID hit people it's on them.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:37 pm**

RedRose wrote:Fact of the matter is that any living being placed into , sucked in , falling into the spell (any living being)
is magically spit back out after the duration of the magic has elapsed.

Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something living on the other side.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:51 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Fact of the matter is that any living being placed into , sucked in , falling into the spell (any living being)
is magically spit back out after the duration of the magic has elapsed.

Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something living on the other side.

"Possible" and "Likely" are not synonyms.

There's two possibilities here:
1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it.
Both #1 and #2 are possible. Which do you think is more likely?

Personally, in a 6-book series filled with egregious tragedy, it seems like the authors would have jumped at the chance of making Tolkeen's defense more tragic than it already was. Yet no mention was made, so I am inclined to believe that #2 is the case.

If you have evidence in support of #1 (or at least contrary to #2), please share it.

--flatline

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:54 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nether wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:You act like a city that has been militerized for over a decade can be seperated from the military aspect of it. Was it a city? Yes. Was it the main base? Yes. Was it full of Enemy combatants? yes. Where there civilians there supporting them? yes.

If you don't want your civilians hurt, don't hide among them. Set up a military base AWAY from the city. Not THE CITY. But don't make your city your main military strong hold then cry when the war you have been building to for 17 years comes and they shoot at you.

This would be the way to go, but the CS's track record would most definitely show that they will slaughter civilian or military alike, there is no difference for them.

So if Tolkeen had military bases outside of the city, the CS would have most definitely nuked them too, and it would have been easier as no military defense. We all know it is a common MO for the CS to kill anyone they dont like, ie dbee villages ext.

Actualy the fact that they had the miltary bases inside the city had notihng to do with the CS and every thing to do with you defend a city in Rifts from every day threats. Now the base was focused in a small part and the CS bombing both nucler and non nucler target both civilian and military targets. The nukes used as recal from SOT 6 where small taticle LRM many where fired at the dragon city.
Not leaving your home or fleeing to a walled citty when some one burns your town does not make you a military target.

The base wasn't a small part. They were spread out all through and around the city. The city WAS the base. You're talking about a war of snipers. Not a full out war. And that's not what happened.

When you put your military IN your city, you can't cry when your city is bombed, as your military made your city a military target.

Actualy athou the bases where not small they where focused military target and the wall defences where to keep attakers out not to hide among the citisens

And no it is not a war of snipers it is called selecting your tagets and is how Our military fights. Every Large city in the US has some level of military instatlation in it. That does not mean you can carpet bomb the whole city. You pick the weapon that can destroy your tacticle target with the least ammount of civilian damage. Carpet bombing a refugee camp and school and calling it as a miliarty target is a vioalion of the Laws of War and is a War crime. Those that order or do such an action are War criminals. Now Tolkeen had more than its fair share of war criminals and War Crimes but the cities defence and lay out are not part of them

And even the peaceful state of Lazlo has a military base inside and around the city. The goal is to be close to and protect the citiens not make them targets or hid behind them.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:57 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Fact of the matter is that any living being placed into , sucked in , falling into the spell (any living being)
is magically spit back out after the duration of the magic has elapsed.

Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something living on the other side.

So are you saying that shifters have no way of finding out what is on the other side of said rift. (wish i had my book with me) But i seam to rember they had the abilty to read rifts in RuE.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:09 pm**

[quote="flatline"]1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it./quote]

3. The author left it unspecified, for GMs and players to fill in or not, as they please.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:26 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it.

3. The author left it unspecified, for GMs and players to fill in or not, as they please.

If #3 is the answer, then there is no canon answer and the argument turns into dueling house rules...

--flatline

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:41 pm**

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it.

3. The author left it unspecified, for GMs and players to fill in or not, as they please.

If #3 is the answer, then there is no canon answer and the argument turns into dueling house rules...

--flatline

That depends on the argument.
The only canon that my argument of "Tolkeen acted pretty callously" requires is the canon statement that Tolkeen sent nuclear missiles into a dimension that they believed to be uninhabited, but that they didn't know for certain was uninhabited.
It doesn't matter whether or not they actually killed anybody; what matters is that they were ready and willing to take the risk, and that they did so.

(Although this argument is of slightly different context than the original scenario presented in this thread, where they were rifting the nukes randomly. In this case, it seems that they did check into the possibility that the dimension was inhabited, and decided that it was unlikely. Which isn't nearly as bad as just opening random rifts and dropping nukes through.)

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:45 pm**

Greetings and Salutations. Because I hate making multiple posts, I'm going to make one post addressing three different topics. Posts quoted will include Killer Cyborg, Red Rose, Blue Lion, and flatline (in that order).

Killer Cyborg wrote:
And further reading actually shows any living being accidentally placed in or who falls into it is spit back out of
that when the magic elapses.

Care to quote those passages?

Ask and thou shalt receive ...

Rifts Book of Magic; page 146, Swallowing Rift wrote:Living beings who get "swallowed" vanish for as long as the Rift is active (lost to a swirl of chaos), but after it closes they reappear 2D6 minutes later somewhere along one of the connecting ley lines. They are dazed for 1D4 melee rounds ([list of penalties]) from their dizzying experience, but are none worse for the wear.

Hope that helps. Though just to make sure this one doesn't come up later ...

Rifts Book of Magic; page 146, Swallowing Rift wrote:Any non-living object carried on the wind is sucked into the Rift ...
[snip]
Whater is pulled into the Rift is sent to a different dimension and is forever lost. Most intelligeng beings and animals can avoid this fate ...

Just for a better feel. Anyways, read the spell. It's only 2 paragraphs long, and even if you don't have the SoT1 book, fairly sure you have the Book of Magic. Have a great day.

RedRose wrote:Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

There are lots of possible explanations.

1: The place is restricted access. I can't walk into Fort Knox. If I try, I'll get kicked back out. That doesn't mean it's a limbo or that if I nuke the place no one will get hurt.
2: There are dimensional barriers separating some dimensions. This could be one of those barriers, restricting the access of living beings but not inorganic material.
3: The people do enter, but it's just not something a mortal mind can comprehend. This is why they're kicked back out and so disorientated. Just because mortal minds can't understand doesn't mean that there can't be anything living there or that they can't be hurt by nukes.
4: Considering it's designed to be used in conjunction with Rift Triangular Defense System, that could imply that it's a defensive magic. As such, there's some type of built-in mechanism in the spell that refuses to displace people (doesn't consider them a threat?) and automatically separates them. Why would it do this? We don't know. Maybe it's just nice and doesn't want to displace someone.
5: It's inhospitable to human life, but not all life. There could be a society of benevolent aliens there that survive on an atmosphere that would be toxic to humans. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to live.

Just a few ideas, done quickly, because I'm too lazy to spend more time on the matter (because it's just so open to possibilities).

Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Fact of the matter is that any living being placed into , sucked in , falling into the spell (any living being)
is magically spit back out after the duration of the magic has elapsed.

Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something living on the other side.

So are you saying that shifters have no way of finding out what is on the other side of said rift. (wish i had my book with me) But i seam to rember they had the abilty to read rifts in RuE.

A few notes about the Shifter ability ...

1: RUE came out after the Siege on Tolkeen series. So abilities gained after won't necessarily help something that happened before.
2: The spell lasts for 15 seconds per level. Dimension Sense (ability #3 of Shifter as of RUE) takes 1D6+2 minutes of concentration. There's also a percentile roll. So that means that the individual casting Swalling Rift has to be level 12 or higher, and only with the lowest random roll (needs to roll a 1 on the 1D6) will a Shifter even have a chance (still needs to roll %). They'd probably have to cast it a LOT of times before they succeeded in the Dimension Sense. For some reason I don't think they cared that much. Even if they did, the more they cast it to learn more about it, the more the enemy can learn about it. This was considered new and strange magic that caught everyone off guard. So they probably avoided casting it if for no other reason than secrecy.
3: Even if they did succeed, they only get a limited amount of information. They can make presumptions off that, but they won't know details. There's a lot of ways that can go wrong if that's all your basing your belief on.

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it.

3. The author left it unspecified, for GMs and players to fill in or not, as they please.

If #3 is the answer, then there is no canon answer and the argument turns into dueling house rules...

--flatline

#1 and #2 are house rules as well. Really, everything after "unknown" is guess work/house rules. Ironically, the only thing we know is that we don't know.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:58 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Rue wrote:Dimension Sense : Shifters, are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few minutes
of concentration a shifter is able to tel lthe type of dimension, how dense the dimensional fabric is, if the
dimension or world can support human life

This prove's that the reason they beleive it to be a lifeless limbo like place is because they can verify it threw
various classes in game.

Rue wrote:Base Skill: 35%+5% per level of experience.

Also, note that this power did not exist when the SoT books were written, so it's not something that the writers could have taken into account.

Also, also, from the snippets quoted about the rift, it does not seem to be subject to the normal rules and behaviors for Rifts, which means that it wouldn't necessarily be as easy to read as a normal rift.

For whatever reason, the official text states that they believed that the dimension was empty... not that they KNEW it.
Which means that officially, they did not know it.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:03 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something
living on the other side.
So are you saying that shifters have no way of finding out what is on the other
side of said rift. (wish i had my book with me) But i seam to rember they had the abilty to read rifts
in RuE.

I have the quote your looking for.

Rue wrote:Dimension Sense : Shifters, are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few minutes
of concentration a shifter is able to tel lthe type of dimension, how dense the dimensional fabric is, if the
dimension or world can support human life

This prove's that the reason they beleive it to be a lifeless limbo like place is because they can verify it threw
various classes in game.

Yes that is the one also as shifters can reopen rifts and telport to other dims with spells it is verry likly that tolkeen did research and did not causaly choose something could kill a peacefull socity. (not that doing so is something that some members of tolkeen leadership whould not do anywas as some would.)

Also people keep over looking 2 facts.
missles in rifts are smart weapons that means why they can bestroyed they tend not to hit random targets.
Nukes can only go nucler if they are set off by there core
That means that if a smart missle targeting system says it hit the wrong target it may crash but whould not nuke the target. Some non nucler missles may be set off by the crash but not the nuke.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:14 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
RedRose wrote:
Rue wrote:Dimension Sense : Shifters, are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few minutes
of concentration a shifter is able to tel lthe type of dimension, how dense the dimensional fabric is, if the
dimension or world can support human life

This prove's that the reason they beleive it to be a lifeless limbo like place is because they can verify it threw
various classes in game.

Rue wrote:Base Skill: 35%+5% per level of experience.

Also, note that this power did not exist when the SoT books were written, so it's not something that the writers could have taken into account.

Also, also, from the snippets quoted about the rift, it does not seem to be subject to the normal rules and behaviors for Rifts, which means that it wouldn't necessarily be as easy to read as a normal rift.

For whatever reason, the official text states that they believed that the dimension was empty... not that they KNEW it.
Which means that officially, they did not know it.

Now you are using hind sight to split hairs. The power is reprinted from earler reworks of shifter. And they always had ways to expore dimtions.

The only way to go from belife to know is to test it. You belive if you get shot in the head it will kill you, to know that it will you whould need to be shot in the head. Does that mean th at your belife is wrong? Belife is true to a person untel it is proven wrong. The belife removed the calous nature as to them it was safe, now if they found out they where wrong and kept doing it then it whould be callous.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:19 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:missles in rifts are smart weapons[/b] that means why they can bestroyed they tend not to hit random targets.

Actually, not a bad point.
It doesn't necessarily change Tolkeen's actions, but it does mean that they're probably unlikely to harm anybody even if the dimension IS populated.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:22 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, note that this power did not exist when the SoT books were written

Your right, It did not exsist for the Shifter, prior to SoT, but it did in fact exsist for the Temporal wizard / raider
prior to the SoT series.

So either way it was in fact, something that could be tested / found out.

IF that there was in fact a temporal wizard/raider present at Tolkeen, and that there is any indication that he/she/it helped out in that capacity.
Care to quote any passages supporting the notion?

Prior to its use on the nukes. Meaning
they believed it to be lifeless, limbo like place where no life exsisted and living beings could not exsist is
not only suppored by the spells description (due to it spiting them out after the spells duration) but also by
Temporal wizards/ raiders ability to read dimensional portals.

I'd expect that IF the spell/power you're referring to is actually infallible, then the wouldn't "believe" that the dimension was lifeless, they'd know it.
And since the text states clearly that they only believed it to be lifeless, that necessarily means that they did not in fact KNOW that it was.

Posted: **Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:33 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:IF that there was in fact a temporal wizard/raider present at Tolkeen, and that there is any indication that he/she/it helped out in that capacity.

Well, Temporal practitioners aren't exactly rare as far as magic users go, and they do tend to get around a lot, so it seems reasonable to assume that Tolkeen had some resident or hired some to help with the war effort.

But I'm confused. What power are you guys saying that Temporal Wizards or Raiders have about detecting life in other dimensions? I've played a lot of Temporal Wizards and I'm not aware of any such abilities. When I had the good fortune of being a minor/major psychic, I always selected the Sensitive power Read Dimensional Portal to be able to learn something about what's on the other side of a random dimensional portal. That power was introduced in Psyscape which was published before the SoT books.

--flatline

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:46 am**

RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:The final seige is an entire thick book about the City and it's military defenses. Open it. Read. Point made.

Then you could quote at least 1 time, where the City of Tolkeen is called the Military base of Tolkeen.

It should not be this hard for you to quote something, that your argueing it states that it does. Unless it in fact
does not state the City state of Tolkeen as The Military Base of Tolkeen.

Case proven, Thank you for your time.

You can call it a fruit cake if you like. Won't change the fact.

Can you show me the "tolkeen bases"?

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:04 am**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Fact of the matter is that any living being placed into , sucked in , falling into the spell (any living being)
is magically spit back out after the duration of the magic has elapsed.

Combined with the inhospitable limbo like sentence, leads 1 to believe that the dimension in which the missiles
went, is in fact lifeless. The first supports the second, which supports most peoples believes that the dimension
is in fact lifeless.

Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something living on the other side.

So are you saying that shifters have no way of finding out what is on the other side of said rift. (wish i had my book with me) But i seam to rember they had the abilty to read rifts in RuE.

I'm saying it wasn't a shifter casting a spell. it was something different. As to wither they could or not.. they didn't. They PRESUMED.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:04 am**

flatline wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
flatline wrote:1. The nukes killed someone but the authors choose not to mention it.
2. the nukes didn't kill anyone but the authors choose not to mention it.

3. The author left it unspecified, for GMs and players to fill in or not, as they please.

If #3 is the answer, then there is no canon answer and the argument turns into dueling house rules...

--flatline

That's the point. there is no difinative answer, so one can't SAY that noone died.

That's what's been said all along.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:06 am**

RedRose wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Just means you couldnt throw something living through the hole. Doesn't preclude there being something
living on the other side.
So are you saying that shifters have no way of finding out what is on the other
side of said rift. (wish i had my book with me) But i seam to rember they had the abilty to read rifts
in RuE.

I have the quote your looking for.

Rue wrote:Dimension Sense : Shifters, are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few minutes
of concentration a shifter is able to tel lthe type of dimension, how dense the dimensional fabric is, if the
dimension or world can support human life

This prove's that the reason they beleive it to be a lifeless limbo like place is because they can verify it threw
various classes in game.

Again, this wasn't a shifter casting a spell. It was a super huge city wide defence mechinisim. It wasn't some shifter standing on the roof.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:12 am**

RedRose wrote:Flatline, do Temporal wizards, not have the ability to read dimensional portals ?

If they do in fact not, have that ability( which I was sure they had) then I do apologize. I was wrong. And then we can move the discussion from Temporal mages to mystic's who also foot the bill with their ability to select their psionic powers.

Either way, Tolkeen had a difinitive way of finding out the info they wished to know about the portal.

Again. This wasn't a shifter standing on the roof. It was a new function of magic/spell/whatever. It was unique to Tolkeen and functioned by tapping into the city's mystical power (( I think.))

It's not part of any OOC's kit and kaboodle. No single wizard was in charge of it all. It was something new, so trying to say the caster could tell is just speculation.

What we ----are told---- by the book, is that they presumed it was empty. Not that they KNEW it was empty. If it was empty, it'd be more simple to type "It was empty" than "It was presumed empty" There's no reason to cloud the fact, if it was for certain ONE WAY and not the other.

It could be empty, It could not be. The point isn't that tolkeen purposefully nuked them. The point is that tolkeen didn't know for sure, and didn't care as long as it wasn't them takin' the punch.

The CS shot a military target. Tolkeen threw the nukes over a wall. They don't THINK anyone was over there but they don't KNOW. THAT is what is being pointed out.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:34 am**

RedRose wrote:Tolkeen had a difinitive way of finding out the info they wished to know about the portal.

Show me that there was a psychic or mage in Tolkeen at that time, and that the mage/psychic/whatever actually worked on (or was consulted for) the project.
THAT would evidence of something.
Just "hey, something exists, so it must have been used" does not.

Although, in any case, as I've pointed out, the book clearly states that Tolkeen only believed that the dimension was uninhabited, which means that they officially did not know for certain.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:38 am**

flatline wrote:But I'm confused. What power are you guys saying that Temporal Wizards or Raiders have about detecting life in other dimensions? I've played a lot of Temporal Wizards and I'm not aware of any such abilities. When I had the good fortune of being a minor/major psychic, I always selected the Sensitive power Read Dimensional Portal to be able to learn something about what's on the other side of a random dimensional portal. That power was introduced in Psyscape which was published before the SoT books.
--flatline

Yeah, that's the only thing that sprung to mind for me, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with Temporal Mages/Raiders, and it's a moot point anyway, so I just took the claim as it was.
Read Dimensional Portal, though, won't tell you whether or not the dimension is inhabited.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:39 am**

Nightmask wrote:Whether or not Tolkeen's Rift Defense actually did send the missiles into a lifeless dimension to the best of Tolkeen's knowledge that's where they were sent, a location where no one would be harmed. Their intent was to protect their populace without hurting others.

The CS on the other hand tried to nuke a heavily populated civilian location unprovoked with the intentions of killing every man, woman, and child within its borders simply for existing. There can be no dispute about that. 'They were building up troops to defend against us' isn't a justification.

The very fact that the spell does empty those missiles into a space presumed to be lifeless, implies that at the very very least, the creators of this spell or spell chain did all that they could to avoid taking the lives of others.

That they cannot know for sure that there's no life in that other place --and how, indeed, would ANYBODY ever know for sure unless they spent the better part of eternity searching the entire dimension from one "end" to the other? --does not make them "callous."

To go back to the example that one poster has made in this Thread, and use it as an analogy, if somebody throws a grenade at you, even if you try your very best to make sure that you deflect that grenade to somewhere "safe," you're never going to know for sure -maybe a couple of skateboarding teens shows up in that formerly empty space you deflected the grenade to.

For that reason, neither the deflector of the grenade nor the deflector of the Coalition's nuclear fusillade is "callous" for doing so, not based on what information that we know thus far; to the contrary, and on the face of it, it seems that both parties in both scenarios did the best job that they could to avoid taking innocent life (e.g., the crafters of the anti-Nuke defense could have presumably, easily, researched and tweaked the spell so that the missiles came out of the Rift right into Chi-Town).

Tolkeen's rift defense, as written, wasn't "callous," it was "imperfect" from a standpoint of absolutely guaranteeing a 0% possibility of innocent death. Big (moral) difference.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:02 am**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Flatline, do Temporal wizards, not have the ability to read dimensional portals ?

If they do in fact not, have that ability( which I was sure they had) then I do apologize. I was wrong. And then we can move the discussion from Temporal mages to mystic's who also foot the bill with their ability to select their psionic powers.

Either way, Tolkeen had a difinitive way of finding out the info they wished to know about the portal.

Again. This wasn't a shifter standing on the roof. It was a new function of magic/spell/whatever. It was unique to Tolkeen and functioned by tapping into the city's mystical power (( I think.))

It's not part of any OOC's kit and kaboodle. No single wizard was in charge of it all. It was something new, so trying to say the caster could tell is just speculation.

What we ----are told---- by the book, is that they presumed it was empty. Not that they KNEW it was empty. If it was empty, it'd be more simple to type "It was empty" than "It was presumed empty" There's no reason to cloud the fact, if it was for certain ONE WAY and not the other.

It could be empty, It could not be. The point isn't that tolkeen purposefully nuked them. The point is that tolkeen didn't know for sure, and didn't care as long as it wasn't them takin' the punch.

The CS shot a military target. Tolkeen threw the nukes over a wall. They don't THINK anyone was over there but they don't KNOW. THAT is what is being pointed out.

It was a spell not a automated system in it self. Some level of reserch must go into a spell to belive anything about it. They did not know it for shure because either:
A No one that could use another means to open a portal to said dim returned.
B It was to big to search.

To label it a callus action when efforts where set up to use something that every one belived whould not kill people just does not make sense to me. If it said opens random dimentional portals that whould be one thing. But it opens a portal that the people using belived was empty. The belife is what made it not Callus, something must have made them belive it. Some one or something at some time witch had the authorty to make them belive what they said whould have to state such for a whole city state to (and mages as a whole) make them belive such a thing.

The rifts where huge many mages/psi could see the rift so even if the caster was not a shifter (witch many probly where) shifters and others saw it. And you are right it was not a mage on a roof it was a mage on a wall.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:03 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, this wasn't a shifter casting a spell. It was a super huge city wide defence mechinisim.
It wasn't some shifter standing on the roof.

And again, the people/ beings who did cast it (more then likely as a ritual) would have the capability to READ that
Portal as been shown.

You can not defy Canon class abilities just because you think the classes should not have been there even
tho they were there in droves.

No class in canon has the spell/ritual/defense mechanism. it's new. You can't jury rig powers as you read them. Assume that's how they work with a new power, Further assume that the guy you're talking about was there, and then assume he also used said jury rigged power in the way you think it works..... Unless the book says that's how it works.

What the book SAYS.... is that they didn't know for sure. You keep ignoring that as if it doesn't' matter that the book says they're not sure, and say they were.

The book, canon book, says they weren't. Your arguments are just house rules trying to defy what was written.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:05 pm**

RedRose wrote:The thing that makes me wonder.

People on this site, try to say there is no way Tolkeen could have known anything about the rift, yet canonly
we have shown at least two classes which were in major abundance in tolkeen that had the capability
(and probably many more psychic's atleast)

Yet a known magic community would be so callous to not do their home work ? Why, because it suits
your guys arguement?

That logic does not make sense on any level. Especially with the following information.

Shifters have this very real ability.
Rue wrote:READ DIMENSIONAL PORTAL:
instills the character with the following, Destination is relatively dangerous/hostile or safe
to the psychic.This includes whether or not the enviroment can support human life.

Book of Magic wrote:SWALLOWING RIFT:
Where the portal leads to is unknown, but is PRESUMED to be a limbo-like inhospitable enviorment.

Let us Check out some numbers now .

Total population for Tolkeen Peacetime 890,000 beings.
6% Ley Line Walkers.
5% other Practicioners of Magic.
8% Psychic.

Out of Tolkeen's population who could have this ? Lets take a look and check it out. As of
on Tolkeen book 7.

19% of the peacetime population that has the ability to have 1 or the other ability to read the Portal
to find out whats on the other side directly. And a whopping 5% of which has the chance to have not only
the psychic ability but also the spell ability ! ! !

Exactly what is 19% of 890,000 beings ? 169,100 beings with the ability to to find out for Tolkeen.

Shall we see some of the more notable beings in Tolkeen who could easily have had major incluence working
on the the project. Shall we ?

Baarrtk Krror
- (Psionics) All sensative, one of which is in fact DIMENSION SENSE
_ (Magic) All spells levels 1-15. One of which is the spell SWALLOWING RIFT.

And he was in fact in Tolkeen 84 years prior to the tolkeen war. Not only could he have been one of the
key people who were used to create the system, chances are high that he was the one who came up with it.

Salkind, The Metal Mage,
He was born an raised in Tolkeen, he very well also could have been in on the
building of the defense network of Tolkeens. Whom knows all spells levels 1-12.
- READ DIMENSIONAL PORTAL : Class wide ability.
- SWALLOWING RIFT : 12th lvl spell.

Cervega Klister
- (Psionics) Sensative, SENSE DIMENSIONAL ANOMALY

There is not only a list of High ranking officials in Tolkeen prior to the entire invasion as well as a small
list of spells and or abilities via psionic's character class abilities and spells in which not only could help
Tolkeen in coming to the conclusion that the rifts is a place that is inhospitable to life but as well as a
limbo like place. Also of note, is the fact that living beings (no matter who) are kicked outta the dimension
once its magic has run its course further proving that life can not exsist in it with out it being an active
and open rift.

You can argue all you like about trivalities, but these are taken from the books themselves and provides more
canon answers then any agenda of anyone's to try to say its nukes went to explode on some one else.

Now that I've provided cited sources in which not only do I provide spells, psionics and class abilities, but I
also provided a complete list of beings who have either 1 or the other and at times both abilities as well as
the Rank needed to actually be working on the project.

The debate is over. Have fun.

There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote. You've been wrong for some time. lol

As for the "Why"? You did notice that Tolkeen had gone evil, and didn't really care who got hurt any more right?

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:11 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:Flatline, do Temporal wizards, not have the ability to read dimensional portals ?

If they do in fact not, have that ability( which I was sure they had) then I do apologize. I was wrong. And then we can move the discussion from Temporal mages to mystic's who also foot the bill with their ability to select their psionic powers.

Either way, Tolkeen had a difinitive way of finding out the info they wished to know about the portal.

Again. This wasn't a shifter standing on the roof. It was a new function of magic/spell/whatever. It was unique to Tolkeen and functioned by tapping into the city's mystical power (( I think.))

It's not part of any OOC's kit and kaboodle. No single wizard was in charge of it all. It was something new, so trying to say the caster could tell is just speculation.

What we ----are told---- by the book, is that they presumed it was empty. Not that they KNEW it was empty. If it was empty, it'd be more simple to type "It was empty" than "It was presumed empty" There's no reason to cloud the fact, if it was for certain ONE WAY and not the other.

It could be empty, It could not be. The point isn't that tolkeen purposefully nuked them. The point is that tolkeen didn't know for sure, and didn't care as long as it wasn't them takin' the punch.

The CS shot a military target. Tolkeen threw the nukes over a wall. They don't THINK anyone was over there but they don't KNOW. THAT is what is being pointed out.

It was a spell not a automated system in it self. Some level of reserch must go into a spell to belive anything about it. They did not know it for shure because either:
A No one that could use another means to open a portal to said dim returned.
B It was to big to search.

To label it a callus action when efforts where set up to use something that every one belived whould not kill people just does not make sense to me. If it said opens random dimentional portals that whould be one thing. But it opens a portal that the people using belived was empty. The belife is what made it not Callus, something must have made them belive it. Some one or something at some time witch had the authorty to make them belive what they said whould have to state such for a whole city state to (and mages as a whole) make them belive such a thing.

The rifts where huge many mages/psi could see the rift so even if the caster was not a shifter (witch many probly where) shifters and others saw it. And you are right it was not a mage on a roof it was a mage on a wall.

This doesn't hold water through. If some jackanape kid is in a house with a gun. Jerking around with his friends and laughs and points the gun to the wall and fires off shots. Even if he THINKS the next room is empty. Even if he put his ear up to the wall and listened and didn't hear anyone. Even if he shouted for everyone to get out... even if he did all thatand puts bullets through the wall and kills 10 people. He still killed them. He acted irresponsibly with his power (( the gun)) and did a dangerous thing. He killed 10 people. That he thought the room was empty means very little. He didn't kill them on purpose, but he still kills them. Negligent homicide at the very least. Callous disreguard for life is still present. One doesn't 'presume' when one's actions can result in death. When one's actions can result in MILLIONS of death, it's really a bad idea to make presumptive assumptions.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:51 pm**

Greetings and Salutations. This is just a random thought that came to me and I felt the need to bring it up. When talking about what Tolkeen did or did not know about this spell, we have to keep something in mind.

1: Going by what I've seen in this thread (and others), this war had been building for ... 17 years I think?

2: CS troops began to encircle/cut off Tolkeen ... 7 or 10 years or so prior to the actual conflict?

3: This spell is something the CS had never seen before.

What does all of this tell us? Well, it tells us a few things.

A: You can't cast a surprise spell no one has ever seen before if you cast it while that person is watching you.

B: This spell is either old (probably invented at least 17 years ago (probably even longer*), or Tolkeen invented it during their build up for the war which means they probably never used it. Since this spell operates on such a massive scale and no one had ever seen it before, it means they couldn't have cast it at any time while the CS had encircled them, and (likely) not during the war build up because the CS (should have) been keeping a general eye on them (spies, intel, etc.).

* The fact no one has ever seen this spell before suggests (to me) that this is either a very old spell (and no one in Tolkeen has probably ever used it before, but told what it did) or a very new spell (created during the build up, but kept in secret).

C: It doesn't matter what Tolkeen had at the time of the war to investigate this spell, it wasn't created then (or if it was, wasn't cast to test out).

Now what we have is that where it leads is "unknown" and that it's "presumed" to go to limbo or inhospitable location (limbo and inhospitalbe are kind of different, which scares me that they're not even sure which). But, let's look at the definition of "presume."

pre·sume (pr-zm)
v. pre·sumed, pre·sum·ing, pre·sumes
v.tr.
1. To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary: We presumed she was innocent.
2. To constitute reasonable evidence for assuming; appear to prove: A signed hotel bill presumes occupancy of a room.
3. To venture without authority or permission; dare: He presumed to invite himself to dinner.
v.intr.
1. To act overconfidently; take liberties.
2. To take unwarranted advantage of something; go beyond the proper limits: Don't presume on their hospitality.
3. To take for granted that something is true or factual; suppose: That's the new assistant, I presume.

In the first set (v. trs.) we have #1 and #2 which would go in favor of Tolkeen going the extra step, and #3 in favor of them just not caring enough to check and just saying it was.

In the second set (v. intr.) both #1 and #2 suggest Tolkeen would've overstepped their bounds in saying such (not a good thing), while #3 could work in favor of Tolkeen again.

What does that tell us? Well, for one, it's been a while since I took an English class and I can't tell you what "v. trs." and a "v. intr" are (though pretty sure both are types of verbs), and I sure can't tell the difference for which one applies to the sentence structure of the spell in question. What we also know is that it depends on how Palladium meant the word "presume" because it can go either way.

Personally, I take it that Palladium meant that Tolkeen honestly believed that was the case and meant no harm to anyone, but Palladium honestly left it open because that's what they do. Though I also don't believe they tested it out (at least not on that scale), and any sort of things could've gone wrong/changed. They probably said: "Oh, no one will get hurt" and then kind of put it out of their minds because they didn't want to think too hard on any of it (because if they did, they might have to question it and it's easier to act when you don't think about the consequences).

That's my take on matters. Though, for Blue Lion, commenting on the wording, I'll help take you back through the course of events in this thread with a quick summary.

Spoiler:

Started off with these comments ...

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Doesn't matter, that Rifts Defense System made the bombs disappear off into another dimension anyway (hopefully no one was living there at the time).

Pretty callous of them.

This shifted into how good and pure and innocent Tolkeen are and can do no wrong. We also have things like ...

Killer Cyborg wrote:
RedRose wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Feel free to quote the book directly, citing the page number for the relevant passage.

Take care to notice, your the one who is saying they may have or not.

I'm discussing the scenario as posed in this thread, not as posed in the books.
As mentioned, I don't have the book, so I can't really comment on the official version unless somebody quotes it to me.

I said if that happened the book would have stated
such.

And I asked you to support that claim by quoting the passages in question, to demonstrate the lack of mentioning, and to show that the context is such that such a thing would have been necessarily mentioned if it happened.

We have Killer Cyborg admitting he didn't have the book, and asking people to provide quotes to show him otherwise (for about another page, which wasn't done until I did it). We also have Red Rose saying things like the book would have said what happened to the missiles, even though the section talking about it from an in character point of view of a CS soldier who had no clue what happened (just a bad argument all around).

RedRose wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:As I said, I don't have the book.

Well if you do not have the book then you do not know what your talking about.

Allow me to help you. The nukes did in fact not hit anyone. And yet the Coalition still holds fault for launching them in the first place.

Red Rose then proceeds to lie to someone who doesn't have the books by claiming it as "fact" (which it's not).

The sad truth is, this topic would've probably ended back on page 1 if the other side had just provided some decent evidence. The lies (yes, there were lies involved) and blind defense of all things Tolkeen is what probably dragged it out to now 4 pages of debate. Just saying ...

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:56 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote.
You've been wrong for some time. lol

Show me a quote that says they do not know .

Greetings and Salutations. The part that says: "Where these portals lead is unknown ..."

Do you know what "unknown" means? I hate to say it, but this is an honest question since you claimed "presumed" as facts earlier in this thread. If you don't know what these words mean, please look them up.

The fact it's "unknown" means that they do ... not ... know. This is why they "presume" (which is NOT a fact, nor is it all knowledge of). At best, they made an educated guess.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:27 pm**

Johnnycat93 wrote:
RedRose wrote:I absolutely love how people will give the CS anything on this site, yet when it comes to caster types.
They think they would not be smart enough, (even tho the book clearly states them as being highly
intelligent) to actually use the powers they have at their disposal.

Apparently they weren't. Welcome to the magical world of flavor text. Remember that this is not a scenario that is theoretically playing out and it is up to the boards to decide what happens. This scenario has already been resolved by Palladium and they, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the mages of Tolkeen did not actually bother to sufficiently check the dimension they where sending nukes into. I thinks thats all anyone is trying to say. You may be right and it may be down right silly that they didn't check, but that doesn't change what the book says happened.

That's an opinion not a fact, they checked it well enough to believe the chances of anything living there was remote. Once again I regret giving the 'CS can do no wrong' sorts yet another thing to twist and claim 'proves' how evil or bad Tolkeen when the only ones responsible for threatening innocent lives is and always has been the CS and not Tolkeen. They are no more at fault than if a terrorist blows up a nuclear plant and spreads radioactive materials around can get away claiming the plant was at fault because it couldn't stop the obviously murderous terrorist from blowing it up.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:57 pm**

Johnnycat93 wrote:
RedRose wrote:I absolutely love how people will give the CS anything on this site, yet when it comes to caster types.
They think they would not be smart enough, (even tho the book clearly states them as being highly
intelligent) to actually use the powers they have at their disposal.

Apparently they weren't. Welcome to the magical world of flavor text. Remember that this is not a scenario that is theoretically playing out and it is up to the boards to decide what happens. This scenario has already been resolved by Palladium and they, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the mages of Tolkeen did not actually bother to sufficiently check the dimension they where sending nukes into. I thinks thats all anyone is trying to say. You may be right and it may be down right silly that they didn't check, but that doesn't change what the book says happened.

Where does it say they did not test or reserch the only cannon for created new spells in rifts is in another game. Where you come up with an idea for a spell and make it. If that was used then the spell whould have the desired affects.
Tolkeen cast many masivly powerfull spells without the CS knowledge. Including turning the whole city into regenerating MDC structures. Tolkeen had access to other planes, and even shifter varent that traveled them. No military whould trust the defence of a capital city to an untested affect.

Now what no one for the CS has adressed is

Smart nukes do not blow up on the wrong target
bombing a whole city even if it has a base does not make it a legal target
How the laws of war whould hold it accountable

With what Tolkeen knew the spell was safe. nothing ever says that tolkeens system killed people you are simlply twisting something to suit your whim.

Both sides comited Grievous war crimes but the defence system was not one of them.

Tolkeens crimes
Torture, killing sacrifice of prisonrs.
Mind control, enslavement.
Pacts with super natural eviel.
Human rights violation

CS crimes.
Genecide
Delberate targeting non military targets.
Enslavement (CS mutant animals)
Torture, killing of prisnors.
Human rights violations.

Now despite this facts many soldiers on both sides are not all eviel. In fact many people on both sides where standing up for a noble cause the supported. The Defence spells for the city where ment to keep it safe without costing human life and is one of the things that tolkeen did right.
Stoping the nukes on your home soil means risking nucler materal making it into the gound water, sending them some place that every thing points to as not been inhabited makes perfect stratgic sense.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:48 pm**

Johnnycat93 wrote:This scenario has already been resolved by Palladium and they, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the mages of Tolkeen did not actually bother to sufficiently check the dimension they where sending nukes into.

There's no way to make that determination based on the words of the text.

Not to mention that a separate dimensional space in the Palladium Setting can represent any size from a small broom closet to a universe-sized region of the Megaverse.

How, exactly, would ANY power that there is -short of a so-called Omniscient Deity who can see everywhere at once -ever know for sure that the space they're sending stuff to is 100% devoid of life??

I'm not really taking a side in the whole "Is Tolkeen evil?" side-debate going on in this Thread, but it seems entirely unrealistic for one to demand that Tolkeen know each and every single micron of space in another dimension before we give them the moral go-ahead to send nukes there.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:55 pm**

Canon never stated that it did any harm. That is just what people are saying because it suit the whim they have.

Nothing in the spell text leads any more to it than saying The space between worlds (outer spece) is belived to be lifeless and unable to suport life. People are impling other wise because it suit there whim to make tolkeen bad and some even try to make it sound like it is all Tolkeens fault.

So tell me this list one sorce in cannon that clearly states that it did just that. With what cannon says most people whould assume it was a safe system. If you are saying other wise it is because it supports your whim not any written cannon.

All you can say is we have no idea what reserch they whould have done. But giving that this spell was trusted with the protection of the city states heart, and the nature of the Cities states assests it is likely that they did reserch it to some well thaght out degree.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:26 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote.
You've been wrong for some time. lol

Show me a quote that says they do not know .

It's been shown. It said they presumed it was empty. A presumption is not knowledge. It's a guess. Read up the thread. Quit acting like it's not there. You've been proven wrong for quite some time.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:27 pm**

RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote.
You've been wrong for some time. lol

Still waiting for your quote of any book what so ever in thee entire palladium catalogue, that calls
Tolkeen a military base rather then a City State.

I've shown not only were there beings who could have done what was needed, to find out if the portal
was around any living beings, but they had the rank to be in on the project as well.

And you have not shown me quote 1, to support your whole Tolkeen was a military base debate.

There goes any / all of your debates, out the window. You say stuff to get a rise out of people, when your
called out on it and asked to show a quote, you stomp your feet an say here is a book read it. While never
once giving a quote.

All I asked for Pepsi Jedi, was a quote. That should not be too hard for you, as I've read in another thread
you claim to own all the books.

So show me a quote. That calls Tolkeen a military base, rather then a city state. If not.

Thank you for your time.

The entire series has tolkeen set up as their military base. Read the books, if you have them. Read final siege.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:47 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
RedRose wrote:I absolutely love how people will give the CS anything on this site, yet when it comes to caster types.
They think they would not be smart enough, (even tho the book clearly states them as being highly
intelligent) to actually use the powers they have at their disposal.

Apparently they weren't. Welcome to the magical world of flavor text. Remember that this is not a scenario that is theoretically playing out and it is up to the boards to decide what happens. This scenario has already been resolved by Palladium and they, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the mages of Tolkeen did not actually bother to sufficiently check the dimension they where sending nukes into. I thinks thats all anyone is trying to say. You may be right and it may be down right silly that they didn't check, but that doesn't change what the book says happened.

Where does it say they did not test or reserch the only cannon for created new spells in rifts is in another game. Where you come up with an idea for a spell and make it. If that was used then the spell whould have the desired affects.
Tolkeen cast many masivly powerfull spells without the CS knowledge. Including turning the whole city into regenerating MDC structures. Tolkeen had access to other planes, and even shifter varent that traveled them. No military whould trust the defence of a capital city to an untested affect.

A newly developed and untested defense is better than no defense at all. They got lucky.

Blue_Lion wrote:Now what no one for the CS has adressed is

Smart nukes do not blow up on the wrong target

You've yet to prove this. Nor do you have any way what so ever of knowing how traveling into alternate dimensions where the very laws of reality might differ, might effect a nuclear missile.

Blue_Lion wrote:
bombing a whole city even if it has a base does not make it a legal target

You're under the greviously mistaken impression that there are rules of war in Rifts earth. Or that the CS sees Tolkeen as even worthy of them if they were. The CS didn't nuke Free Quebec, but Free Quebec wasn't a nation of aliens and demon lovers (And demons) Nuking a nation that's allied with demons is well with in most people's frame of mind as acceptable. They'd allied with supernatural evil on a massive scale.

Blue_Lion wrote:
How the laws of war whould hold it accountable

What law's of war? Who's going to hold them accountable? Even by the most generous stretch of the imagination, the strongest power on earth, makes it's money by the enslavement of sentient beings and intergalactic conquest. ((Atlantis/The Sploog.)) Going even further, Tolkeen wasn't a 'Human' kingdom to be afforded the rights as such.

Blue_Lion wrote:
With what Tolkeen knew the spell was safe. nothing ever says that tolkeens system killed people you are simlply twisting something to suit your whim.

Noone's twisting anything. We're saying they didn't ____KNOW____ it was safe. They presumed it was safe. And in that it was a presumption, they MAY have inadvertantly killed millions. They may not have. We don't know. Through their actions they did open that possibility.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Both sides comited Grievous war crimes but the defence system was not one of them.

Agreed.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Tolkeens crimes
Torture, killing sacrifice of prisonrs.
Mind control, enslavement.
Pacts with super natural eviel.
Human rights violation

CS crimes.
Genecide
Delberate targeting non military targets.

Tolkeen was a military target. The entire city was the target.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Enslavement (CS mutant animals)

They're not enslaved. Not as stated. They were created and serve in a service class, but are mostly happy to do so, those that aren't run away and unless they make problems for the CS they're mostly let go if they 'escape'. The Lone Star book goes into this in pretty great detail about how most dog boys love their jobs, love the CS and love doing what they do.

They're not given the same level of rights, but they're beloved by the people and even the troops.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Torture, killing of prisnors.
Human rights violations.

Now despite this facts many soldiers on both sides are not all eviel. In fact many people on both sides where standing up for a noble cause the supported. The Defence spells for the city where ment to keep it safe without costing human life and is one of the things that tolkeen did right.

That is what it was 'MEANT TO DO'. But they did not test it (( how could you? it's not like they had nukes to launch at themselves)) To KNOW that it wouldn't hurt anyone. it was a prototype that by all accounts saved the day, but that ignorance on where all those 100 nukes went is a heavy thing hanging up there in the air.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Stoping the nukes on your home soil means risking nucler materal making it into the gound water, sending them some place that every thing points to as not been inhabited makes perfect stratgic sense.

If you're willing to possibly sacrifice others so that you might live? yes. If somone shot a nuke at the US and we could make it hit Canada instead... it's 'good' for us.. .but really bad for Canada and they're not going to be pleased. Nor should they be. We threw it at them.

There in lies the problem with the Tolkeen nuke defense shield. While it's great for them, their ignorance of the dimension in which they shunted the missles leaves open the possibility that their actions cost the lives of millions.

Not ENSURED the loss of millions of lives.

Opened the possibility.

In that they did so and made that tactical decision, is not a good thing. They looked at their defense system and went
"ok... it rifts the missiles out. Where do they go?"
and who ever built it went '.... .We think it's a limbo like alternate dimension'.
"you think?"
"Yeah.. we're pretty sure"
"how sure?"
"Well we don't know.. but we presume"
"ok... we don't KNOW?"
"no.... but we presume it won't hurt anyone"
"But you don't KNOW that it wont?"
"Well... it won't hurt US... it MIGHT hurt someone else, but we don't think so"

And at some point... one of the generals if not Creed himself went "Ok... well if it won't hurt us, that's a risk I'm willing to take"

That willingness to perhaps hurt others, inadvertently through your own defense, is the object of the dissention here. If it's a thrown punch and you duck out of the way and shove your attacker and he hits a bystander.. That sucks.

If it's a flight of 100 nuclear missles, and you throw them some where with out looking, based on a presumption............ that... is callous and pretty henious. Is it able to be comprehended? "We block a nuke strike and hope it doesn't hit someone else" Yeah we can UNDERSTAND it.. .b ut it doesnt' change what the act is.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:31 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:"ok... it rifts the missiles out. Where do they go?"
and who ever built it went '.... .We think it's a limbo like alternate dimension'.
"you think?"
"Yeah.. we're pretty sure"
"how sure?"
"Well we don't know.. but we presume"
"ok... we don't KNOW?"
"no.... but we presume it won't hurt anyone"
"But you don't KNOW that it wont?"
"Well... it won't hurt US... it MIGHT hurt someone else, but we don't think so"

I actively try to stay away from these threads because lets face it, regardless of how everyone disagrees, I am sure that 100% of the forum base would agree that CS v Tolkeen threads are a blight on these forums.
Having said that, I have to step in here.
Your own propaganda machine is spinning full power right now but the fact is that there is no evidence that any such conversation occurred.
All we know is that they presumed it was safe.
The following conversation could be equally as accurate:

"ok... it rifts the missiles out. Where do they go?"
and who ever built it went "A limbo like alternate dimension".
"you are sure?"
"Yeah.. we're pretty sure"
"how sure?"
"Well its magic and untested, obviously that leaves a margin of error we cannot account for."
"ok... we don't KNOW?"
"no.... but we are 99.9999% sure that no-one will be harmed."
"But you don't KNOW that it wont?"

Neither your suggested conversation nor mine are cononly accurate. All we know is that the believed it to be safe.
Feel free to pretend otherwise but please don't pretend it is an accurate representation of information none of us could possibly know.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 pm**

Giant2005 wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:"ok... it rifts the missiles out. Where do they go?"
and who ever built it went '.... .We think it's a limbo like alternate dimension'.
"you think?"
"Yeah.. we're pretty sure"
"how sure?"
"Well we don't know.. but we presume"
"ok... we don't KNOW?"
"no.... but we presume it won't hurt anyone"
"But you don't KNOW that it wont?"
"Well... it won't hurt US... it MIGHT hurt someone else, but we don't think so"

I actively try to stay away from these threads because lets face it, regardless of how everyone disagrees, I am sure that 100% of the forum base would agree that CS v Tolkeen threads are a blight on these forums.
Having said that, I have to step in here.
Your own propaganda machine is spinning full power right now but the fact is that there is no evidence that any such conversation occurred.
All we know is that they presumed it was safe.
The following conversation could be equally as accurate:

"ok... it rifts the missiles out. Where do they go?"
and who ever built it went "A limbo like alternate dimension".
"you are sure?"
"Yeah.. we're pretty sure"
"how sure?"
"Well its magic and untested, obviously that leaves a margin of error we cannot account for."
"ok... we don't KNOW?"
"no.... but we are 99.9999% sure that no-one will be harmed."
"But you don't KNOW that it wont?"

Neither your suggested conversation nor mine are cononly accurate. All we know is that the believed it to be safe.
Feel free to pretend otherwise but please don't pretend it is an accurate representation of information none of us could possibly know.

You realize that they end up in the same place right? We agree they didn't KNOW where they went. Therefore either conversation ends in the same thing, inspite of your 99.99999% sure (( if it was that sure why claim it unknown and presumptive?)). Thing is, they still didn't KNOW, and in not knowing, the statement stands.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:28 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote.
You've been wrong for some time. lol

Show me a quote that says they do not know .

It's been shown. It said they presumed it was empty. A presumption is not knowledge. It's a guess.

It's an educated guess made with the data they had available. If they had any evidence to the contrary, then they would not have presumed as they did.

Unless you can demonstrate that they didn't make a good faith attempt to determine if the dimension was inhabited or not, there is nothing here to discuss.

--flatline

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:11 pm**

No where does it say anything about Tolkein having data, or research, or having explored, or anything. In fact, it says presumed...

Here is the definition of presume

Definition of Presume according to a Google search of the word: wrote:pre·sume
Verb:
Suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability: "I presumed that the man had been escorted from the building".
Take for granted that something exists or is the case.

I know this has already been defined, like twice now, but even in the definition, there is nothing about having or necessitating data. Presuming is basically hoping you are right, loosely based on what you think is the case. Not that you have actually done any research into the matter.

Like I presumed that the party would be fun, it wasn't.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:31 pm**

Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:32 pm**

GenThunderfist wrote:No where does it say anything about Tolkein having data, or research, or having explored, or anything. In fact, it says presumed...

Here is the definition of presume

Definition of Presume according to a Google search of the word: wrote:pre·sume
Verb:
Suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability: "I presumed that the man had been escorted from the building".
Take for granted that something exists or is the case.

I know this has already been defined, like twice now, but even in the definition, there is nothing about having or necessitating data. Presuming is basically hoping you are right, loosely based on what you think is the case. Not that you have actually done any research into the matter.

Like I presumed that the party would be fun, it wasn't.

Probability: a strong likelihood or chance of something.
You can't just suppose that something is the case with a strong likelihood, if it is a random guess. To consider something to have a strong likelihood of occurring implies some sort of determination.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:15 pm**

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

The other side knows that "presumed" indicates that the known evidence supports the presumption, but the evidence is known to be possibly incomplete so a more definite position isn't warranted.

If I tape shut an empty box and come back in an hour, if there's no evidence that the box has been disturbed, I am likely to presume that the box is still empty.

If I walk into the room and find a new box taped shut, I can make no presumptions about the contents of the box until I perform some sort of experiment and achieve a result (like shaking the box or opening it up).

--flatline

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:35 pm**

flatline wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Can I get the cliff notes from each side?

One side thinks "presumed" is a decision made in the complete absence of evidence.

The other side knows that "presumed" indicates that the known evidence supports the presumption, but the evidence is known to be possibly incomplete so a more definite position isn't warranted.

If I tape shut an empty box and come back in an hour, if there's no evidence that the box has been disturbed, I am likely to presume that the box is still empty.

If I walk into the room and find a new box taped shut, I can make no presumptions about the contents of the box until I perform some sort of experiment and achieve a result (like shaking the box or opening it up).

--flatline

The very statement that goes along the lines of (paraphrased) "presumed to be an inhospitable environment" implies if not says outright that, at some point in the creation of the Spell, SOMEBODY tried to at least look inside, and saw nothing...and thereafter made a presumption based on their observations.

That someone or something might have evaded their senses/scans/scrying, and that Tolkeen might very well be wrong about that Dimensional Space being empty, nevertheless does not take away from the circumstantial evidence that they at least tried to see if no one was there, saw that there was no one there, and thereafter proceeded to use the magic as a cosmic dumping ground/re-director of enemy attacks.

Therefore, their actions in that regard cannot be typified as "callous," however incorrect in their presumptions as they might be.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:45 pm**

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
RedRose wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:There is no debate. The book straight up says they didn't know. We've provided the quote.
You've been wrong for some time. lol

Show me a quote that says they do not know .

It's been shown. It said they presumed it was empty. A presumption is not knowledge. It's a guess.

It's an educated guess made with the data they had available.

But it's still a guess. An assumption. Nothing sure. I don't 'disagree' that it was an educated guess from their viewpoint. I'm saying when you're speaking in terms of 100 nuclear warheads, a guess isn't good enough.

flatline wrote:
If they had any evidence to the contrary, then they would not have presumed as they did.

That's quite unsure. Tolkeens military build up and swift decent into evil makes it possible that who ever was in charge of that project, was evil and didn't care. There is NO PROOF of that, but there's no proof the other way either. Once you free armies of demons from prison and outfit them with TW weapons, not to mention other hordes of demons, black faries, witches, brodkil, ect... all bets are off. Could be they didn't know, because they didn't take the time for more than a mere glance. We honestly don't know which way it was. BOTH are possible. They could have made AS SURE AS THEY POSSIBLY COULD... or.. they might have glanced, and called 'er good.

flatline wrote:

Unless you can demonstrate that they didn't make a good faith attempt to determine if the dimension was inhabited or not, there is nothing here to discuss.

--flatline

The thing I've been trying to point out, is that it doesn't matter if they made a good faith attempt or not. They did NOT 'determine'. They assumed. And if you're making assumptions with flights of 100 Nuclear warheads, that's dangerously wreckless.

And that's the only thing people have said.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:58 pm**

Schrödinger's cat anyone?

Seems we're to that point in this discussion... though mostly because of differing interpretations of the word "presumed" based largely upon the twisting nature of blind hatred upon ones thought processes.

Until a Rifts book (or at least a palladium books' line) is released that directly talks about this we will never know if the nukes did anything, and because of our ignorance of this detail this discussion is pointless as the so called defenders of Tolkeen (More like blind haters of the CS) will not stop in their blatant refusal to see even the smallest sign of reason.

All that said... would be a kicker to find out that the nukes launched by the CS in the future were the ones that set off the laylines in the past...

On a more important (to me at least) note:
I'm not even sure what size those nukes were. The CS would have access to a large number of the smaller tactical variety of nukes and as stated in the SoT 1, page 105, the CS wanted the Minnesota territory for the purposes of creating a military buffer zone between themselves and the Xiticix hives further north.

Also as per

CSN pg 48 wrote:Also, the use of nukes against rival states such as Tolkeen would cause undo devastation of territory the Coalition intends to occupy.

I still see no evidence provided by the Tolkeen 'defenders' to support the CS using anything other then the known to be clean Tactical Nukes that as per...

CSN pg 47 wrote:Nuclear weapons are not uncommon in the Rifts environment, many arms manufacturers sell long-range missiles with mini-tactical nuclear warheads. The CS program, however, represents a major shift in nuclear weapons construction and payload. The common tactical nukes produce almost no radiation and affect an area of only 50 feet in radius!

As depicted in the above quote, Tactical nukes are fairly common. More over is the reference to how the tactical nukes produce very little radiation, that's important as the CS fully intends to occupy the territory They wouldn't want the location irradiated. It's doubly important as the CS's larger Strategic Nukes are actually Radiation Enhanced (per CSN pg 47) and as such would contaminate the land and environment. The CS for all their evil wants to win back the earth not destroy it... at least not yet they don't.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:05 pm**

its a tough call

everybody roll
1-50% you are right
51-00% you are wrong

but honestly this is like arguing about if the back door was closed after the house burned to the ground.

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