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Point of fact, not everyone agrees the SoT books "Should have never happened"

Many people think they should have gone differently, but not everyone hates it nor disagrees it should have happened.

Myself for example think the war should have been very much shorter and horribly one sided, bu I've no problem with it, as is, as I understand the company wrote it to make money. Not fan service. To make money you have to have a back and forth nature. It can't be all one sided or people will walk, mid stream or just buy the last book. so it had to go back and forth, then end with a bang. It sold years worth of books. So I'd call it a success.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Point of fact, not everyone agrees the SoT books "Should have never happened"

Many people think they should have gone differently, but not everyone hates it nor disagrees it should have happened.

Myself for example think the war should have been very much shorter and horribly one sided, bu I've no problem with it, as is, as I understand the company wrote it to make money. Not fan service. To make money you have to have a back and forth nature. It can't be all one sided or people will walk, mid stream or just buy the last book. so it had to go back and forth, then end with a bang. It sold years worth of books. So I'd call it a success.

Plus they did learn from the past with SoT...
take a look at how the current books in the Minion War Saga play out...
Not as hard and codified as what the SoT were.
That is the direction I think the company should take with all future meta-plot books.
and Yes; I think they should do another one after the MW series is finished (maybe not right after but after a year or so).

I'm not against another long series of interconnected books. As long as they come out one after the other. As well as not pushing other titles back. PB needs to clear out their huge backlog before even attempting another minion war or SOT storyline imo.

RedRose wrote:

I see it as it was the first time a large number of non-xiticix did a non-violent
trespass in xiticix held territory, which might have just baffled xiticix
leadership too

Thats not how Xitixic operate being "Baffled" they do not get baffled they attack.

And again the book implicitly states, anything larger then a Group sized movement of
beings would elicit total death for the tresspassing beings.

what is defiend as group sized movment is that larger than the CS div that hid insed a the area of a enraged swarm of Xitixic? Reguardless of what whould happen when passing threw it is all about what some one decides happens.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Ok. No air but you're still vulnerable to decompression and the cold of space. You might breathe but your skill will freeze in seconds and you'll be dead anyway.

If there's no air in your lungs, decompression isn't an issue.

Your skull will not freeze within seconds. If you're wearing clothing, you will actually be in more danger of overheating than you are of freezing since in space, there is no heat transfer via conduction, only via radiation. If you're afraid of freezing, wear a hat and an insulated suit. But if you can't shed heat fast enough, Impervious to Energy will save your butt.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Ok. No air but you're still vulnerable to decompression and the cold of space. You might breathe but your skill will freeze in seconds and you'll be dead anyway.

If there's no air in your lungs, decompression isn't an issue.

Your skull will not freeze within seconds. If you're wearing clothing, you will actually be in more danger of overheating than you are of freezing since in space, there is no heat transfer via conduction, only via radiation. If you're afraid of freezing, wear a hat and an insulated suit. But if you can't shed heat fast enough, Impervious to Energy will save your butt.

--flatline

There's air in your blood, (And other gasses Nitrogen for example)) That's why we have LUNGS to oxygenate your blood. Look up "The bends" And if there's NO Air in your lungs, your lungs collapse. Extreamly painful and deadly condition.

Nasa says you start to experience the Bends after 10 seconds or so. and at best you can survive a few minutes.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 70603.html

Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Galroth wrote:Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Which book is that one in, and what page please?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Which book is that one in, and what page please?

Book of Magic pg 121

Galroth wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Which book is that one in, and what page please?

Book of Magic pg 121

Thank you.

*Reads* Hurm.... says it provides environmental protection from a list of things, including gases, and produces air, but doesn't mention pressure or lack there of in that one. It does say ect, but that'd be a judgement call on that one.

Getting closer though. That one does cover alot. I'm not sure about the decompression though. Still not sure you can just look up and teleport into space though.

I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

Exactly...

Johnnycat93 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

Technically, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk or take a side in the discussion, there are rules for knockdown from high-damage attacks in rifts. Anything that deals ~50 damage in one attack knocks down the character, however there is note that any amount of damage that seems reasonable to the GM (like tank rounds) can also cause knockdown.

To be fair, getting knocked down is a far, far cry from suffering instant death after being hit by a tank shell even though it doesn't breach your MDC armor. By rights an SDC being who takes an impact like that should probably die from that no matter how much MDC his body armor has.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Which book is that one in, and what page please?

Book of Magic pg 121

Thank you.

*Reads* Hurm.... says it provides environmental protection from a list of things, including gases, and produces air, but doesn't mention pressure or lack there of in that one. It does say ect, but that'd be a judgement call on that one.

Getting closer though. That one does cover alot. I'm not sure about the decompression though. Still not sure you can just look up and teleport into space though.

I'd say the ect would include space since the beginning of that sentence is provides complete environmental protection from. However, if the GM wanted to be a stickler and I really wanted to get into space above Rifts Earth there's always the level 9 spell Cosmic Armor from Fleets of the Three Galaxies, pg 120.

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

The high-tech armor is defying physics as much as the spell is, and given the spell doesn't say 'if exposed to a vacuum the spell does nothing about gases dissolved in the blood stream resulting in quick death due to the vacuum causing it to undissolve' there's no reason to think such a thing would occur. Because spells can't contradict themselves and 'it's magic!' isn't a valid response nor is 'it even defies and contradicts itself!'.

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

The high-tech armor is defying physics as much as the spell is, and given the spell doesn't say 'if exposed to a vacuum the spell does nothing about gases dissolved in the blood stream resulting in quick death due to the vacuum causing it to undissolve' there's no reason to think such a thing would occur. Because spells can't contradict themselves and 'it's magic!' isn't a valid response nor is 'it even defies and contradicts itself!'.

Hate to break it to you, but as per the physics of Rifts, M.D.C. body armor can not only survive getting hit by a Tank Canon Round, but can also protect the wearer inside from the shock and trauma of such a hit. Such is the Physics of Rifts.

Slight001 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

The high-tech armor is defying physics as much as the spell is, and given the spell doesn't say 'if exposed to a vacuum the spell does nothing about gases dissolved in the blood stream resulting in quick death due to the vacuum causing it to undissolve' there's no reason to think such a thing would occur. Because spells can't contradict themselves and 'it's magic!' isn't a valid response nor is 'it even defies and contradicts itself!'.

Hate to break it to you, but as per the physics of Rifts, M.D.C. body armor can not only survive getting hit by a Tank Canon Round, but can also protect the wearer inside from the shock and trauma of such a hit. Such is the Physics of Rifts.

That's not physics that's fantasy, hence my statement. MDC body armor is just really tough material between you and a mega-damage impact, it doesn't have anything going for it that can prevent a person from being subjected to extremes of acceleration and kinetic shock that should by rights reduce a living being to paste spread around the inside. At least magical power armor one can go 'well they included an inertial damping effect', one can't do that with purely technological armor (outside of the Megaversal Legion since they have tech from the one civilization explicitly known to have learned how to manipulate inertia).

So you're trying to insist the one fantasy (MDC tech armor provides protection against attacks that should paste the occupant) is plausible but the other (Sustain eliminates the need to worry about things such as vacuum exposure while admitting it's a reality-defying magical spell effect) has an unlisted limitation that would leave one to die from vacuum decompression. Sorry but I guess I need to break it to YOU that you're not going to win trying to argue the fantasy about MDC armors is anything but based in fantasy and not physics and no more plausible than Sustain protecting against vacuum decompression.

Cyber-Knight wrote:Well, I'm not too familiar with this event, but given that it's called "Megaverse in Flames", their numbers can't be unlimited if they're attacking all over the Megaverse.

Basically, you can't assume that they unlocked the Infinite Army code before they started the battle because, if they did, then everyone's dead no matter what.

Except that they do have unlimited numbers. Battling forward and backward in time across more dimensions than can be counted. Rifts Earth in particular is poised to be a major battle ground just for its place as a major crossroads, a perfect staging area to make it easier to move those troops into position to act against the other side.
In a war like this, numbers aren't the deciding factor, it is the ability move those numbers.

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

The high-tech armor is defying physics as much as the spell is, and given the spell doesn't say 'if exposed to a vacuum the spell does nothing about gases dissolved in the blood stream resulting in quick death due to the vacuum causing it to undissolve' there's no reason to think such a thing would occur. Because spells can't contradict themselves and 'it's magic!' isn't a valid response nor is 'it even defies and contradicts itself!'.

Hate to break it to you, but as per the physics of Rifts, M.D.C. body armor can not only survive getting hit by a Tank Canon Round, but can also protect the wearer inside from the shock and trauma of such a hit. Such is the Physics of Rifts.

That's not physics that's fantasy, hence my statement. MDC body armor is just really tough material between you and a mega-damage impact, it doesn't have anything going for it that can prevent a person from being subjected to extremes of acceleration and kinetic shock that should by rights reduce a living being to paste spread around the inside. At least magical power armor one can go 'well they included an inertial damping effect', one can't do that with purely technological armor (outside of the Megaversal Legion since they have tech from the one civilization explicitly known to have learned how to manipulate inertia).

So you're trying to insist the one fantasy (MDC tech armor provides protection against attacks that should paste the occupant) is plausible but the other (Sustain eliminates the need to worry about things such as vacuum exposure while admitting it's a reality-defying magical spell effect) has an unlisted limitation that would leave one to die from vacuum decompression. Sorry but I guess I need to break it to YOU that you're not going to win trying to argue the fantasy about MDC armors is anything but based in fantasy and not physics and no more plausible than Sustain protecting against vacuum decompression.

... oh boy here we go again...

I'm not insisting anything. I'm simply reminding you of the physics of the world of Rifts. Take the world of Star Wars for example, Light Sabers exist as a viable technology... then for their 'magic' we have the Force and Sith Sorcery... All that works and is accepted within their universe as working. In Rifts they have M.D.C. body armor and weaponry which works exactly as described within the books. Rifts also has magic which works exactly as described within the description of the spell.

If the game of Rifts was limited to the physics of our world then Magic couldn't exist and Mega-Damage wouldn't exist, at least not as described... Well we'd also not have vampires, shape shifters, psionics... basically we wouldn't have Rifts... we'd have reality and I for one don't play RPG's so that I can play within the limits of Reality.

Slight001 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:That's not physics that's fantasy, hence my statement. MDC body armor is just really tough material between you and a mega-damage impact, it doesn't have anything going for it that can prevent a person from being subjected to extremes of acceleration and kinetic shock that should by rights reduce a living being to paste spread around the inside. At least magical power armor one can go 'well they included an inertial damping effect', one can't do that with purely technological armor (outside of the Megaversal Legion since they have tech from the one civilization explicitly known to have learned how to manipulate inertia).

So you're trying to insist the one fantasy (MDC tech armor provides protection against attacks that should paste the occupant) is plausible but the other (Sustain eliminates the need to worry about things such as vacuum exposure while admitting it's a reality-defying magical spell effect) has an unlisted limitation that would leave one to die from vacuum decompression. Sorry but I guess I need to break it to YOU that you're not going to win trying to argue the fantasy about MDC armors is anything but based in fantasy and not physics and no more plausible than Sustain protecting against vacuum decompression.

... oh boy here we go again...

I'm not insisting anything. I'm simply reminding you of the physics of the world of Rifts. Take the world of Star Wars for example, Light Sabers exist as a viable technology... then for their 'magic' we have the Force and Sith Sorcery... All that works and is accepted within their universe as working. In Rifts they have M.D.C. body armor and weaponry which works exactly as described within the books. Rifts also has magic which works exactly as described within the description of the spell.

If the game of Rifts was limited to the physics of our world then Magic couldn't exist and Mega-Damage wouldn't exist, at least not as described... Well we'd also not have vampires, shape shifters, psionics... basically we wouldn't have Rifts... we'd have reality and I for one don't play RPG's so that I can play within the limits of Reality.

That's not a physics of Rifts, if MDC materials provided such protection then logically they would protect people inside vehicles from injury from high kinetic impact like crashing yet they don't. It's a fantasy element of Rifts, Rule of Cool allowing for something that's not actually in keeping with physics even for the setting (where you have the ridiculous notion that two falling bodies of equal weight sees the more durable object taking more, rather than less, damage). You end up suggesting something that's not plausible is okay because 'well that's how the physics work' but insisting something that warps and outright changes physics to suit it (magic) somehow is more bound to physics than actual physics which is ridiculous.

Nightmask wrote:

Slight001 wrote:Hate to break it to you, but as per the physics of Rifts, M.D.C. body armor can not only survive getting hit by a Tank Canon Round, but can also protect the wearer inside from the shock and trauma of such a hit. Such is the Physics of Rifts.

That's not physics that's fantasy, hence my statement. MDC body armor is just really tough material between you and a mega-damage impact, it doesn't have anything going for it that can prevent a person from being subjected to extremes of acceleration and kinetic shock that should by rights reduce a living being to paste spread around the inside. At least magical power armor one can go 'well they included an inertial damping effect', one can't do that with purely technological armor (outside of the Megaversal Legion since they have tech from the one civilization explicitly known to have learned how to manipulate inertia).

So you're trying to insist the one fantasy (MDC tech armor provides protection against attacks that should paste the occupant) is plausible but the other (Sustain eliminates the need to worry about things such as vacuum exposure while admitting it's a reality-defying magical spell effect) has an unlisted limitation that would leave one to die from vacuum decompression. Sorry but I guess I need to break it to YOU that you're not going to win trying to argue the fantasy about MDC armors is anything but based in fantasy and not physics and no more plausible than Sustain protecting against vacuum decompression.

No, mega-damage materials are not 'just really tough material', the entire basis of it is an entire alternate line of high-energy physics that cannot even exist in dimensions without those divergent physical laws. The interaction of said materials with kinetics has been repeatedly shown to have unusual effects. Solid, documented, and, most importantly, consistent in its usage. Whether you like it or not doesn't change that being a fact of the setting.

Sustain specifically states that it does nothing about external hazards. Period.
..So, you really don't have anything the work with here.
Having your entire body properly nourished and oxygenated is great and all, but vacuum is no picnic. Even if it isn't quite as bad as some media has made out, you're still looking at rupturing your everything. Starting with your eyes. Bowls, lungs, and stomach are your runners up if you aren't curled up and clenching everything as hard as you can. Hope you breathed out first.
Sustain would be practically required to help a person live while recovering from extended exposure, what with damage to your lungs and digestive system, plus being blind.
If the spell were vague at all about it, I'd totally be backing you here, but the spell itself throws protection from external conditions right out.

Nightmask wrote:That's not a physics of Rifts, if MDC materials provided such protection then logically they would protect people inside vehicles from injury from high kinetic impact like crashing yet they don't.

Actually, they do. Or at least keeps it within the SDC range, remember people are still SDC, so sudden stops will still see them wanting to continue in a direction. Wearing proper armor inside a vehicle will further halve that damage though. Ramming something at high speeds into them, however, will leave them unharmed outside results of actual damage. Or from rolling if hit with sufficient SDC energy to knock it over.

Ever do an egg-drop? The team with the egg well nested in padding did much better than the one with the egg just laying in a padded box.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

Technically, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk or take a side in the discussion, there are rules for knockdown from high-damage attacks in rifts. Anything that deals ~50 damage in one attack knocks down the character, however there is note that any amount of damage that seems reasonable to the GM (like tank rounds) can also cause knockdown.

That's an optional rule.

Armorlord wrote:

Cyber-Knight wrote:Well, I'm not too familiar with this event, but given that it's called "Megaverse in Flames", their numbers can't be unlimited if they're attacking all over the Megaverse.

Basically, you can't assume that they unlocked the Infinite Army code before they started the battle because, if they did, then everyone's dead no matter what.

Except that they do have unlimited numbers. Battling forward and backward in time across more dimensions than can be counted. Rifts Earth in particular is poised to be a major battle ground just for its place as a major crossroads, a perfect staging area to make it easier to move those troops into position to act against the other side.
In a war like this, numbers aren't the deciding factor, it is the ability move those numbers.

I have to agree with Armorlord on this one. Let's say you fight Joe Megadeevil. You kill him. Joe Megadeevil is banished from your dimension for 101 years.

So, six months later, your group goes to Wormwood, another dimension entirely. Look, it's Joe Megadeevil, plotting against you! !#$!!! How did that happen? Well, Joe Megadeevil wasn't banished from Wormwood for 101 years, so there he is.

Demon/Deevil battles aren't based on the distribution of resources. They're based on the re-distribution of repeatedly slain ones.

The only way to make sure that your enemies die is to find Joe Megadeevil while he's in Dyval, and kill him. Then, he's actually dead, dead. So the problem is, first, you have to get to Hades. Then Joe Megadeevil has to be totally out of dimensions where he could be fighting a war. So you could have to wait in Dyval for years before he shows up to be killed. Most people will die of old age before this happens.

Yes, but obviously their numbers have to be finite, because if they were infinite then everyone in the megaverse would die and there would be no hope of victory. There has to be an upper limit to the numbers which appear on Rifts Earth, otherwise everyone on Rifts Earth will end up getting killed.

You guys do realize that while a slain Demon/Deevil isn't truly dead unless done so on their home plane it does take them a long time to be reborn... right? It's not like they can just drop dead in one dimension and jump up and hop over to another dimension to raise hell in. When killed they have to spend time reincorporating their energies before they can be reborn and that's not quick.

Fairly sure both sections in both books are listed as something like Death and Rebirth in the contents sections of their respective books, but I don't have mine at the moment so no page numbers.

Slight001 wrote:You guys do realize that while a slain Demon/Deevil isn't truly dead unless done so on their home plane it does take them a long time to be reborn... right? It's not like they can just drop dead in one dimension and jump up and hop over to another dimension to raise hell in. When killed they have to spend time reincorporating their energies before they can be reborn and that's not quick.

Fairly sure both sections in both books are listed as something like Death and Rebirth in the contents sections of their respective books, but I don't have mine at the moment so no page numbers.

Dimension Book 10: Hades pp 19-21.
Dimension Book 11: Dyval pp 16-17.

Hystrix wrote:

Slight001 wrote:You guys do realize that while a slain Demon/Deevil isn't truly dead unless done so on their home plane it does take them a long time to be reborn... right? It's not like they can just drop dead in one dimension and jump up and hop over to another dimension to raise hell in. When killed they have to spend time reincorporating their energies before they can be reborn and that's not quick.

Fairly sure both sections in both books are listed as something like Death and Rebirth in the contents sections of their respective books, but I don't have mine at the moment so no page numbers.

Dimension Book 10: Hades pp 19-21.
Dimension Book 11: Dyval pp 16-17.

Sweet! Thanks Hystrix. I had just dug out those two books to find that two.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Galroth wrote:Sustain is nice and long lasting but Invincible Armor solves all the flaws that Sustain leaves you with. Invincible Armor creates magical fully environmental armor with an independent oxygen supply.

Which book is that one in, and what page please?

Book of Magic pg 121

Thank you.

*Reads* Hurm.... says it provides environmental protection from a list of things, including gases, and produces air, but doesn't mention pressure or lack there of in that one. It does say ect, but that'd be a judgement call on that one.

Getting closer though. That one does cover alot. I'm not sure about the decompression though. Still not sure you can just look up and teleport into space though.

Looks like a reasonable option to me. The basic idea of that spell is that it's a magical version of a full environmental suit of armor, in which case I don't see why it wouldn't protect the spellcaster in space.

Going to throw my two cents into this, for what it's worth - Aliens Unlimited provides a list of magic spells, albeit older ones, that can help protect a magic user from the rigors of space. That and Fleets of the Three Galaxies' Space Magic provides two spells that a magic user would find highly useful: Speak in Vacuum and Survive Vacuum. Speak in vacuum allows the user to do just that and Survive Vacuum makes the user immune to most of the natural rigors of space... Outside of meteors, space debris, etc.

Johnathan wrote:Going to throw my two cents into this, for what it's worth - Aliens Unlimited provides a list of magic spells, albeit older ones, that can help protect a magic user from the rigors of space. That and Fleets of the Three Galaxies' Space Magic provides two spells that a magic user would find highly useful: Speak in Vacuum and Survive Vacuum. Speak in vacuum allows the user to do just that and Survive Vacuum makes the user immune to most of the natural rigors of space... Outside of meteors, space debris, etc.

I'm curious where people think that folks stuck on earth, and locked on earth by the killer satellites would be learning the spells from alternate space faring dimensions.
If you're locked on earth, where would you learn it? Why would people on earth have it, and how could you possibly track someone down with said spells?

I know earth is a megaversal crossroads. It's the premise of the game, but you gotta admit, that on earth, those spells would be more rare than hen's teeth, considering the nature of the planet and 'space' around it.

On center or in the three galaxies where said spells are found they might be better able to track down, but on earth, while not impossible, it would be very difficult at best. At worst, practically impossible. You'd likely have to go to one of those other space faring dimensions to find such.

I think the "best" a rifts earth spellcaster can do about protecting themselves from vacuum is to somehow obtain an Eylor Exploration staff. That allows protection from vacuum as an ability. It also lists it as equivalent to a 10th level spell

Now, you DO have to pry it out a High Lord's cold dead hand, but it's still probably easier than trying to learn space magic.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

Exactly...

Thirded.

One doesn't get to add more effects into a spell than it explicitly provides.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnathan wrote:Going to throw my two cents into this, for what it's worth - Aliens Unlimited provides a list of magic spells, albeit older ones, that can help protect a magic user from the rigors of space. That and Fleets of the Three Galaxies' Space Magic provides two spells that a magic user would find highly useful: Speak in Vacuum and Survive Vacuum. Speak in vacuum allows the user to do just that and Survive Vacuum makes the user immune to most of the natural rigors of space... Outside of meteors, space debris, etc.

I'm curious where people think that folks stuck on earth, and locked on earth by the killer satellites would be learning the spells from alternate space faring dimensions.
If you're locked on earth, where would you learn it? Why would people on earth have it, and how could you possibly track someone down with said spells?

I know earth is a megaversal crossroads. It's the premise of the game, but you gotta admit, that on earth, those spells would be more rare than hen's teeth, considering the nature of the planet and 'space' around it.

On center or in the three galaxies where said spells are found they might be better able to track down, but on earth, while not impossible, it would be very difficult at best. At worst, practically impossible. You'd likely have to go to one of those other space faring dimensions to find such.

Most mages will have the basic spells and that is it. Player mages are different, they will have basic and some hard to find ones, most mages aren't world travelers, some players mages are and some arent. But the likely hood a Mage from rifts earth, living their entire life there will have any space spells is very unlikely, unless their teacher had the spells and thought they might need this one to speak in outer space. It's could happen but it unlikely.

RedRose wrote:

One doesn't get to add more effects into a spell than it explicitly provides

This logic can be applied to everything in print in the palladium megaverse.

Not just magic.

1.Logic has no place in the megaverse
2. See 1.
3. See 2.
4. Tacos

And pardon me for stating my interpretation of 'Sustain," folks, but I don't think that that particular spell actually protects you from the vacuum of space and total lack of air thereof.

As I read the spell, it only seems to protect you from environments that don't have (for you) breathable air.

Non-breathable air.........hard vacuum....two entirely different things.

To me, as the spell is written, you absolutely DO NOT have to have any food at all for the spell's duration, and you absolutely DO NOT have to have any water at all for the spell's duration...but you DO have to have at least some sort of atmosphere.

Whether or not Sustain works isn't important.
Invincible Armor does.

Giant2005 wrote:Whether or not Sustain works isn't important.
Invincible Armor does.

Exactly.

RedRose wrote:

Mech Viper Prime wrote:1.Logic has no place in the megaverse

Very convienient, when speaking about magic, yet not applied so to all things
Coalition I've noticed on this site.

Logic and common sense are optional in the palladium megaverse.

cornholioprime wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

Exactly...

Thirded.

One doesn't get to add more effects into a spell than it explicitly provides.

Uh no, one does most certainly get to include any and all effects that are logical extensions of the spell. No RPG can ever include an exhaustive write-up detailing every interaction and side-effect of everything in it, so the most basic stuff is included. They don't have to have a 'magical lightning can set off C4' because it's still electricity even if it's origin is magic and is just as able as any other electrical discharge of setting it off.

Nightmask wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

flatline wrote:I love how you're willing to accept that 15 pounds of high tech armor can prevent the shock from a tank shell from liquefying your insides, but you balk at the idea that a spell that completely removes your need for food, water, and even air can handle dissolved nitrogen in your blood.

It boggles the mind.

--flatline

It's magic... it defies physics, but only in the precise ways described in the spell description.

Exactly...

Thirded.

One doesn't get to add more effects into a spell than it explicitly provides.

Uh no, one does most certainly get to include any and all effects that are logical extensions of the spell. No RPG can ever include an exhaustive write-up detailing every interaction and side-effect of everything in it, so the most basic stuff is included. They don't have to have a 'magical lightning can set off C4' because it's still electricity even if it's origin is magic and is just as able as any other electrical discharge of setting it off.

Your use of Magical Lightning as an intended counterpoint is a bad analogy.

Magical Lightning is still listed, AFAIK, as causing electrical damage despite having a supernatural origin; therefore, anything that is normally, positively or negatively affected by electrical energy, will be accordingly affected by such a spell.

There is no such provision in the wording for the "Sustain" spell (referencing flatline's belief that the "Sustain" spell's wording can be extended to prevent the bends).

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Uh no, one does most certainly get to include any and all effects that are logical extensions of the spell. No RPG can ever include an exhaustive write-up detailing every interaction and side-effect of everything in it, so the most basic stuff is included. They don't have to have a 'magical lightning can set off C4' because it's still electricity even if it's origin is magic and is just as able as any other electrical discharge of setting it off.

Your use of Magical Lightning as an intended counterpoint is a bad analogy.

Magical Lightning is still listed, AFAIK, as causing electrical damage despite having a supernatural origin; therefore, anything that is normally, positively or negatively affected by electrical energy, will be accordingly affected by such a spell.

There is no such provision in the wording for the "Sustain" spell (referencing flatline's belief that the "Sustain" spell's wording can be extended to prevent the bends).

Really ignoring my point there. The writers can't be expected to list every possibility because they can't come up with every possibility for one and for another it would take up so much space in the books they'd look like the Library of Congress before you were done. You aren't going to include 'compensates for problems like the bends' if you never think of someone using the spell in a situation like that, or if you think no one would ever use a spell in such a fashion so why bother listing that it would work when you need space for something else?

In regards to my example, given I've seen people insist a magical fireball won't burn anything or set anything on fire because it doesn't explicitly say it can my example is quite valid as there are people who will insist because it doesn't say the electrical bolt will set off C4 that because it's created by magic it won't because 'well it's not listed in the spell description'.

Balabanto wrote:There's a certain amount of special bitterness reserved for female narrators in stories. This has been the case ever since Charlotte Bronte wrote the words "Reader, I married him," in Jane Eyre.

It isn't the fact that Erin Tarn is a woman that makes disliking her misandry. It's the fact that she's the woman telling the story, and that somehow, that makes her perception naturally skewed that makes disliking her misandry.

The thing that no one really understands about this is that Erin Tarn doesn't tell stories for her own benefit.

Erin Tarn tells stories to save the world.

I have nothing against Erin Tarn, but I agree with the one who posted the idea that if she dies, then there will be groups and cults which will carry on her legacy. As I believe that Erin Tarn has actually created some ideals of herself that she herself is not really able to uphold. She has created a legend of who she is and what she does that is getting bigger than she really is.
So if and when she dies, her legacy will continue and as another poster said, it might even lead to her becoming a deity, godling, demigod whatever

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnathan wrote:Going to throw my two cents into this, for what it's worth - Aliens Unlimited provides a list of magic spells, albeit older ones, that can help protect a magic user from the rigors of space. That and Fleets of the Three Galaxies' Space Magic provides two spells that a magic user would find highly useful: Speak in Vacuum and Survive Vacuum. Speak in vacuum allows the user to do just that and Survive Vacuum makes the user immune to most of the natural rigors of space... Outside of meteors, space debris, etc.

I'm curious where people think that folks stuck on earth, and locked on earth by the killer satellites would be learning the spells from alternate space faring dimensions.
If you're locked on earth, where would you learn it? Why would people on earth have it, and how could you possibly track someone down with said spells?

I know earth is a megaversal crossroads. It's the premise of the game, but you gotta admit, that on earth, those spells would be more rare than hen's teeth, considering the nature of the planet and 'space' around it.

On center or in the three galaxies where said spells are found they might be better able to track down, but on earth, while not impossible, it would be very difficult at best. At worst, practically impossible. You'd likely have to go to one of those other space faring dimensions to find such.

Most mages will have the basic spells and that is it. Player mages are different, they will have basic and some hard to find ones, most mages aren't world travelers, some players mages are and some arent. But the likely hood a Mage from rifts earth, living their entire life there will have any space spells is very unlikely, unless their teacher had the spells and thought they might need this one to speak in outer space. It's could happen but it unlikely.

I actually agree with both of you on this matter. Is it LIKELY that a Mage from RIFTS Earth would know space magic? No, it's not. Is it probable? No, it's not. Is it POSSIBLE? Sure, it is. It's RIFTS! It's magic! Anything is possible.

I wasn't aware that we were dealing in probability. I was under the impression we were dealing in possabilities. So, my apologies for assuming such.

That may also be why I added the note about Aliend Unlimited having a list of spells that can assist a magic user in space (breath without air and armor of Ithan come to mind...). There are also rules of survivability for how long a PC could, potentially, survive in space. They are pretty brutal but give an "average" human PC about 45-75 seconds to live...

Nightmask wrote:......You aren't going to include 'compensates for problems like the bends' if you never think of someone using the spell in a situation like that, or if you think no one would ever use a spell in such a fashion so why bother listing that it would work when you need space for something else?

The point is that that particular spell isn't written to allow the affected target to survive the FULL effects of hard vacuum, which presents the target with a host of other problems besides just lacking air (and I'll state again for the record that, the way that I'm reading the spell, you have to have at least SOME form of air there in order for this spell to help you per its wording, not vacuum).

OTHER spells and protective magical effects explicitly allow survival in a vacuum; the "Sustain" spell, however, does not.

You might as well try to argue that since "Sustain" provides the target with breathable air, that that means that the character can also go down to the depths of the Marianas Trench without any problem, either.

See the point? You're not JUST dealing with the effects of not having breathable air down there at the ocean's depths, and you're not JUST dealing with the effects of not having breathable air up there past the atmosphere....."Sustain" doesn't account for the secondary (but deadly) effects in its description, whereas other spells do.

cornholioprime wrote:

Nightmask wrote:......You aren't going to include 'compensates for problems like the bends' if you never think of someone using the spell in a situation like that, or if you think no one would ever use a spell in such a fashion so why bother listing that it would work when you need space for something else?

The point is that that particular spell isn't written to allow the affected target to survive the FULL effects of hard vacuum, which presents the target with a host of other problems besides just lacking air (and I'll state again for the record that, the way that I'm reading the spell, you have to have at least SOME form of air there in order for this spell to help you per its wording, not vacuum).

OTHER spells and protective magical effects explicitly allow survival in a vacuum; the "Sustain" spell, however, does not.

You might as well try to argue that since "Sustain" provides the target with breathable air, that that means that the character can also go down to the depths of the Marianas Trench without any problem, either.

See the point? You're not JUST dealing with the effects of not having breathable air down there at the ocean's depths, and you're not JUST dealing with the effects of not having breathable air up there past the atmosphere....."Sustain" doesn't account for the secondary (but deadly) effects in its description, whereas other spells do.

The Highlighted part is the key here...
There are spells in existence already that cover the subject much more thoroughly than what sustain does.

Keep in mind folks that I am ever the proponent of interpreting magic and spell in the most favorable manor possible; but not at the expense of common sense, logic, or by reducing the effectiveness of other spells.
PS: Corny; I happen to agree with you on the "air must be present" aspect of the spell.

Forget Sustain. How about Invincible Armor?

Rifts Book of Magic, pg. 121
Although not quite as "invincible" as the name suggests, this impressive magical armor encases the wearer in a suit of shimmering, translucent plate armor, complete with full helmet. The armor has 25 M.D.C. per level of the spell caster, and regenerates damage at the rate of 1d6 M.D.C. per melee round. The armor offers complete environmental protection from heat, cold, disease, pollution, toxic gases, fumes, etc., and provides the wearer with an independent oxygen supply.

Shouldn't this spell be able to protect the spell caster in the vacuum of space? It works exactly as a complete environmental suit shielding the wearer from outside environmental forces. The vacuum of space, in my opinion, could easily fall under "etc." There's no reason I can think of why it should be able to protect against disease, toxic gases, fumes, and pollution, but not against the vacuum of space. Looks to me like it can do all the jobs an Astronaut's space suit can perform, but better.

Breathe Without Air specifically mentions vacuums. If it did not protect you from The Bends, then it would not be suitable for the purpose that it is stated to address.

Agree or disagree, but I consider Sustain to be a superset of Breath Without Air, so if Breath Without Air handles The Bends, then so does Sustain.

BoM p109: "Sustain allows the recipient of this enchantment to go for days without food, water or breathable air!".

A vacuum certainly meets the criteria of "without breathable air". You guys who claim to interpret spell descriptions generously aren't doing so. Nowhere in the description does it give any indication that non-breathable air has to be present for Sustain to accomplish its purpose.

Perhaps it's time to start a thread on Suitability For Purpose. It's a simple concept that seems to be misunderstood here in the forums.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Breathe Without Air specifically mentions vacuums. If it did not protect you from The Bends, then it would not be suitable for the purpose that it is stated to address.

Agree or disagree, but I consider Sustain to be a superset of Breath Without Air, so if Breath Without Air handles The Bends, then so does Sustain.

BoM p109: "Sustain allows the recipient of this enchantment to go for days without food, water or breathable air!".

A vacuum certainly meets the criteria of "without breathable air". You guys who claim to interpret spell descriptions generously aren't doing so. Nowhere in the description does it give any indication that non-breathable air has to be present for Sustain to accomplish its purpose.

Perhaps it's time to start a thread on Suitability For Purpose. It's a simple concept that seems to be misunderstood here in the forums.

--flatline

"Without breathable air" simply isn't the same as hard vacuum, going along the same lines of logic that make the target of a "Breath Without Air" spell, still be potentially susceptible to toxic fumes -not kidding here, folks; the spell really is written that way.
(Not only do I think that the "Sustain" spell wouldn't protect you from the pressure of the ocean depths, it wouldn't even protect you from drowning; you'd need something like "Breathe Without Air" or "Swim as the Fish" to do that.)

If it were, then they'd say it --as they explicitly do with the "Invincible Armor" and "Breathe Without Air" spells themselves.


Further circumstantial proof that the "Sustain" spell doesn't work in the way that others might think it works:

See Rifts: Underseas, page 63. The "Sustain" Spell is NOT listed as one of those "everyday" spells useful to pneuma-biforms and Ocean Wizards.

cornholioprime wrote:Further circumstantial proof that the "Sustain" spell doesn't work in the way that others might think it works:

See Rifts: Underseas, page 63. The "Sustain" Spell is NOT listed as one of those "everyday" spells useful to pneuma-biforms and Ocean Wizards.

I wouldn't consider that proof of any variety, circumstantial or not, considering that the spell: Sustain didn't even exist when Underseas was printed.