JA-12, best rifle in Rifts game?

[Killer Cyborg]

how could technowizardry affect the ATL-7 by converting it to a magic power source. could the magic version deal 3d6x10+20 md for the cost of 1ppe to recharge it since its "ammo" capacity is one round?

Technically, TW converted lasers do 2d6 MD.
No exception is made for the damage of the tech laser being converted.

Personally, I preferred converting small stuff, like Wilk's 320s.

[jaymz]

how could technowizardry affect the ATL-7 by converting it to a magic power source. could the magic version deal 3d6x10+20 md for the cost of 1ppe to recharge it since its "ammo" capacity is one round?

Technically, TW converted lasers do 2d6 MD.
No exception is made for the damage of the tech laser being converted.

Personally, I preferred converting small stuff, like Wilk's 320s.

That gave it a firepower increase didn't it?

I think the only was to TW an ATL-7 is to charge the eclips using spells but I cannot for the life of me remember what spell that is.

[flatline]

how could technowizardry affect the ATL-7 by converting it to a magic power source. could the magic version deal 3d6x10+20 md for the cost of 1ppe to recharge it since its "ammo" capacity is one round?

Technically, TW converted lasers do 2d6 MD.
No exception is made for the damage of the tech laser being converted.

Personally, I preferred converting small stuff, like Wilk's 320s.

That gave it a firepower increase didn't it?

I think the only was to TW an ATL-7 is to charge the eclips using spells but I cannot for the life of me remember what spell that is.

Sub-particle Acceleration.

--flatline

[Slight001]

Don't E-Clips have a limit to the number of recharges they can handle? None of my GM's have ever forced that on their groups but I'd be surprised if an ATL-7 was in the group that a few of the GMs would start keeping track.

[jaymz]

Don't E-Clips have a limit to the number of recharges they can handle? None of my GM's have ever forced that on their groups but I'd be surprised if an ATL-7 was in the group that a few of the GMs would start keeping track.

Yeah but i think it was like 100;s of times or somethign like that

[Nightmask]

Don't E-Clips have a limit to the number of recharges they can handle? None of my GM's have ever forced that on their groups but I'd be surprised if an ATL-7 was in the group that a few of the GMs would start keeping track.

Yeah but i think it was like 100;s of times or somethign like that

I imagine the average GM would deem that an ATL-7 constitutes unusually excessive and stressful demand (which it is) on the e-clip and shorten its lifespan a great deal more than standard weapon use does. So you likely would drop to dozens of uses before the overtaxed e-clip burns out from repeated discharges of its entire payload in one shot.

[say652]

ok now picture this great weapon in the hands of any style borg,for purposes of this example a Naruni Borg that has a link allowing it to fire any weapon indefinately.........yea

[Nightmask]

ok now picture this great weapon in the hands of any style borg,for purposes of this example a Naruni Borg that has a link allowing it to fire any weapon indefinately.........yea

Energy draw for cyborg weapon links reduce speed and combat bonuses, it would be better to just hook it up to a power pack.

I've never seen that listed anywhere.

[Zamion138]

ok now picture this great weapon in the hands of any style borg,for purposes of this example a Naruni Borg that has a link allowing it to fire any weapon indefinately.........yea

Energy draw for cyborg weapon links reduce speed and combat bonuses, it would be better to just hook it up to a power pack.

That makes sense but i too have never seen that.
Is that a has rule?

[Slight001]

ok now picture this great weapon in the hands of any style borg,for purposes of this example a Naruni Borg that has a link allowing it to fire any weapon indefinately.........yea

Energy draw for cyborg weapon links reduce speed and combat bonuses, it would be better to just hook it up to a power pack.

That makes sense but i too have never seen that.
Is that a has rule?

IIRC its found within the bionics source book. Not sure which page off hand... but its definitely not a house rule.

[Zamion138]

Well if your shooting from afar then the slow down effect is still out weighed by the weapons punch.

[Nightmask]

ok now picture this great weapon in the hands of any style borg,for purposes of this example a Naruni Borg that has a link allowing it to fire any weapon indefinately.........yea

Energy draw for cyborg weapon links reduce speed and combat bonuses, it would be better to just hook it up to a power pack.

That makes sense but i too have never seen that.
Is that a has rule?

IIRC its found within the bionics source book. Not sure which page off hand... but its definitely not a house rule.

Which doesn't make sense, there's no reason to think cyborg power supplies are any less robust than those in power armor and power armor never has problems with powering external weapons (like the Japanese SAMAS, which uses a powerful Particle Beam Weapon).

[say652]

a naruni borg is listed as having the ability to power energy weapons indefinately without penalty. kinda why i picked them for the starting example. lets apply rules for EARTH based borgs to alien tech,that happens to be way more advanced? Or example 2 you couldn't pay an Operator to hard wire one into your power armor? Pretty sure that is quite possible also.

[say652]

now back to the core of this post the JA12 great weapon but, nonjuicers using juicers stuff is a bad idea. it angers them.

[Shark_Force]

[Moderated for profanity. Mack]

[say652]

in juicer uprising yes it says(my gm read it to me and i read it also) juicers do not like squishies using juicer equipment.

[Killer Cyborg]

in juicer uprising yes it says(my gm read it to me and i read it also) juicers do not like squishies using juicer equipment.

What page?

[say652]

i dont have the book i think its in the equipment section, i really wanted a juicer chainsaw.

[Nightmask]

a naruni borg is listed as having the ability to power energy weapons indefinately without penalty. kinda why i picked them for the starting example. lets apply rules for EARTH based borgs to alien tech,that happens to be way more advanced?

naruni borgs have power supplies power their weapons indefinetely, but there is no mention they do so without penalty (see my mention of pre-installed weapons in my previous post). Also the Bionics sourcebook is not necessarily earth limited, seeing as there is little-to-no inclusion of space age bionics in the dimension books to my knowledge. Also recall, weapons technology in the Three galaxies is generally only 10 to 20 years beyond normal earth stuff (although some of the most advanced surpass earth's by 50 to 100 years).

There is nothing that says the Naruni borg suffers those penalties either. Given unlike most borgs we're told explicitly that the Naruni borg is actually designed to power external weapon systems and no penalties are listed we've no reason to believe that they do in fact suffer any detrimental effects from it. They have Three Galaxies level technology in them that's noted to be better than what they sell to their customers and it would make little sense for such systems to be bothered by powering external weapon systems.

[Nightmask]

a naruni borg is listed as having the ability to power energy weapons indefinately without penalty. kinda why i picked them for the starting example. lets apply rules for EARTH based borgs to alien tech,that happens to be way more advanced?

naruni borgs have power supplies power their weapons indefinetely, but there is no mention they do so without penalty (see my mention of pre-installed weapons in my previous post). Also the Bionics sourcebook is not necessarily earth limited, seeing as there is little-to-no inclusion of space age bionics in the dimension books to my knowledge. Also recall, weapons technology in the Three galaxies is generally only 10 to 20 years beyond normal earth stuff (although some of the most advanced surpass earth's by 50 to 100 years).

There is nothing that says the Naruni borg suffers those penalties either. Given unlike most borgs we're told explicitly that the Naruni borg is actually designed to power external weapon systems and no penalties are listed we've no reason to believe that they do in fact suffer any detrimental effects from it. They have Three Galaxies level technology in them that's noted to be better than what they sell to their customers and it would make little sense for such systems to be bothered by powering external weapon systems.

That could very well be, but there are a few indeterminate factors:
1) Reading the Repo-Bot write up (which is what I assume we are all talking about) it does not state in any way that the borg was designed to power weapons. The fact that it has weapons preinstalled is coincidental as other borg chassis have installed weapons as well.

'You may also plug in any energy weapons to the internal supply for unlimited payload' certainly sounds like it's built to power weapons, one hardly mentions you can power weapons off of something if in fact it's not built to power them.

2) They use a nuclear power supply, and while it is much longer lived than other models, nothing suggests that the power output of the supply would be any higher than a standard version (although possible). It is possible that their combat bonuses come from a higher energy output, but they could also come from a myriad of other things.

Many things are possible, but given we aren't talking Earth technology and we're told it's got a port for the purposes of powering external energy weapons AND no mention of penalties then we cannot impose penalties where they weren't mentioned.

3) In my opinion unless something is explicitly stated to be immune to a penalty, then that thing can be effected by said opinion.

Opinion isn't relevant however. Given the Repo-Bot was published in one of many books long before the Bionics book came out and couldn't have explicitly stated being immune to a penalty that didn't exist your opinion fails the logic test and must be excluded from consideration.

4) There are very few actual examples of Three Galaxies independent bionic systems (the wolfen qutoria being the only one to come to mind). The Repo-Bot is actually written up as using standard bionic systems (excluding their armor and weapon systems) out of the Bionics sourcebook. What evidence is there to say that they get to conveniently ignore penalties in this one case?

They're written without penalties in the first place, the Bionics Sourcebook coming out long after which would have made it impossible for the write-up to reference a non-existent future publication to note that they weren't covered by the penalties imposed on Earth-type cyborgs. It's a fallacious argument to expect them to explicitly note not being affected by a penalty that never existed when written, so cannot have had such a penalty to begin with.

5) Repo-Bots don't actually start with power links in their bionic section, so the meaning of "any energy weapon can be plugged in to the power supply" is open to multiple relevant interpretations.
6) Naruni is not an expert in bionics systems, so I would be reluctant to say that they possess technology that is centuries ahead of the standard.

You need to reread the Repo-Bot, the text refers to them as 'Super-cyborgs' and only maybe being exceeded by the Wolfen Quatoria and Machine People and that they keep the best technology for themselves. Clearly you're in error in believing them to not be expert at bionic systems. Given we're given special mention of being able to plug an energy weapon into the cyborg's power supply they clearly have such a port, which wouldn't have been listed as an explicit item as a feature since at the time again cyborg rules didn't include the option of buying an external power hook-up for external weapons. There are no 'multiple relevant interpretations', there's only one interpretation: Naruni Repo-Bots have a port for hooking up external energy weapons to and can power them indefinitely and without any drain on its systems. An extremely logical and simple conclusion since it has no problems powering its own internal weapons without penalty so powering an external weapon would cause no more drain than its own internal systems.

[jaymz]

Actually I thought the Repo-Bots were supposedly the equivalent to Transferred Intelligence Bots not cyborgs at all....

[Nightmask]

I do not have much time to reply right now, I'm working on something else.
How could they be immune to a penalty that came out after they were written?
Suffice to say, you show me one other set of stats power supply weapon link and I'll concede. Failing that then I don't see how the repo-bot gets to magically ignore the penalties since it is not described as having some separate and superior version.

How can you insist they have an exception in their write-up for a rule that was added way down the line for a different setting? Because THAT is what would require something magical to make happen, put down an exception to a book that hasn't been written yet. 'Ten years from this publication a book will come out that'll have penalties for borgs native to Rifts Earth, but those penalties don't apply to this borg.' Complete with an unrealistic and fallacious demand for evidence that cannot exist because to exist the later book would have had to come out prior to the earlier book and if Palladium could publish books prior to their actual creation they'd have a lot less trouble meeting their deadlines.

We know Phase world technology is superior to Earth technology. We know the Repo-Bot even by Phase World standards is superior to other existing cyborgs (outside of the Wolfen Quatoria maybe). We know it has an installed port for powering weapons. We know that NO penalties are given for this weapon link in their write-up. We know it to be impossible for the book to include an exception for a penalty that was added into a Rifts book over a decade later so must have been written without there being any penalties because if there were penalties they'd have been included in the write-up. No penalties listed in the write-up means there are no penalties.

Clearly you want to penalize them for some reason even though they're meant to be an NPC in the GM's control and not a PC but that's not going to change the fact that they were written without penalties in a setting far superior to Rifts Earth and with technology stated to be superior to nearly everyone else. While some power creep since then has occurred so they don't seem as superior as they once did complaining that they ought to have a a penalty clearly not meant for them and trying to argue that they should have said it didn't apply when it came about long after they were created is just silly. The Naruni Repo-Bot cyborg has no penalties for powering external weapons, it wasn't written with one at a time when you were required to write in such penalties if they existed and is from a superior technology setting so it doesn't have one, it's that simple.

[Nightmask]

Actually I thought the Repo-Bots were supposedly the equivalent to Transferred Intelligence Bots not cyborgs at all....

They kept the details vague regarding them, while cyborgs we're told they seem like they may have the same mind or personality imprinted onto them of a single individual (much like the 'dubbing' possible in Ghost In the Shell), but super-rare glitches giving a bit more free will may occur. It's possible they're actually cyborg bodies with a Neural Intelligence installed into them, making them never having been what we'd consider an actual cyborg (a once living being, often human, with their body save the brain replaced with machines).

EDIT:

Although such detailed discussions on the Naruni Repo-Bot probably should be transferred to a new thread in the forum for Dimension books.

[Nightmask]

I do not have much time to reply right now, I'm working on something else.
How could they be immune to a penalty that came out after they were written?
Suffice to say, you show me one other set of stats power supply weapon link and I'll concede. Failing that then I don't see how the repo-bot gets to magically ignore the penalties since it is not described as having some separate and superior version.

How can you insist they have an exception in their write-up for a rule that was added way down the line for a different setting? Because THAT is what would require something magical to make happen, put down an exception to a book that hasn't been written yet. 'Ten years from this publication a book will come out that'll have penalties for borgs native to Rifts Earth, but those penalties don't apply to this borg.' Complete with an unrealistic and fallacious demand for evidence that cannot exist because to exist the later book would have had to come out prior to the earlier book and if Palladium could publish books prior to their actual creation they'd have a lot less trouble meeting their deadlines.

We know Phase world technology is superior to Earth technology. We know the Repo-Bot even by Phase World standards is superior to other existing cyborgs (outside of the Wolfen Quatoria maybe). We know it has an installed port for powering weapons. We know that NO penalties are given for this weapon link in their write-up. We know it to be impossible for the book to include an exception for a penalty that was added into a Rifts book over a decade later so must have been written without there being any penalties because if there were penalties they'd have been included in the write-up. No penalties listed in the write-up means there are no penalties.

Clearly you want to penalize them for some reason even though they're meant to be an NPC in the GM's control and not a PC but that's not going to change the fact that they were written without penalties in a setting far superior to Rifts Earth and with technology stated to be superior to nearly everyone else. While some power creep since then has occurred so they don't seem as superior as they once did complaining that they ought to have a a penalty clearly not meant for them and trying to argue that they should have said it didn't apply when it came about long after they were created is just silly. The Naruni Repo-Bot cyborg has no penalties for powering external weapons, it wasn't written with one at a time when you were required to write in such penalties if they existed and is from a superior technology setting so it doesn't have one, it's that simple.

The new RUE rules came out after phase world, does that mean repo-bots don't have to follow those? Saying that their write-up makes them immune to the penalty because it doesn't mention the penalty is ridiculous. It doesn't say repo-bots can be blinded, does that mean repo-bots are immune to being blinded? And let's put this in perspective: they would be susceptible to a vague penalty that only really is inconvenient after HOURS, and may or may not apply to their pre-installed weapons. This "system" possesses no write-up, and is actually just a sentence at the end of the weapons section.

Given how things seem to be written at Palladium and delays in publication there's no reason to believe that Phase World was written with knowledge of any intent to consider adding a penalty for using a borg power supply to power an external weapon. Given the statement was that the rule was in the Bionics Sourcebook and not the Rifts: Ultimate Edition and the Sourcebook definitely came out after Phase World if you're saying it was retroactively part of the Ultimate Edition at the same time that obviously also fails as an argument.

Tossing out random things like the blindness as red herrings doesn't work either, such absurdities are rejected on their face for the absurdities that they are. Your position is that the Phase World book must list an exception for something the writer almost certainly had no idea was even going to exist to make an exception for. That and insisting that advanced alien technology wasn't any better than what Rifts Earth has (even though Phase world is noted as being centuries ahead of Rifts Earth), that Naruni doesn't build anything better than they do on Rifts Earth (in spite of the write-up saying their cyborgs are at the top of the food chain for cyborgs in Phase world), and that because there wasn't an extra note listing them with an external weapons port in their cyborg gear it doesn't exist and the text saying you could plug into their internal power supplies could mean that you can jury rig something (even though you could technically do that with any cyborg so no such special note would be needed, and such a special note reasonably means they come with a built-in port).

[Zamion138]

And now we get back to the JA12?????????-

[jaymz]

And now we get back to the JA12?????????-

Awesome assault rifle

[jaymz]

Clearly you want to penalize them for some reason even though they're meant to be an NPC in the GM's control and not a PC .

Actually they are a RCC and there is nothing that states they are meant to only be a GM NPC. There is a note that they make a better NPC than PC but that's it.

[Nightmask]

Specific over General.

Does the Repo-Bot have a Specific reference that it is immune to the general ruling about external weapons being powered via internal power supplies?

More than that, the Repo-Bot already has three internal weapons listed. None of them compare with the range and damage an externally powered ATL-7 can dish out.

The ATL-7 simply isn't an applicable weapon to use as an example. First it drains an entire e-clip's worth of energy to power one shot which would mean it actually is going to tax a non-optimized power supply with it in mind. It's the only weapon that does, the rest have 'normal' energy draws on the supply. Secondly the body of the text speaks to how one can simply make use of a hand-held energy weapon plugged into the internal systems of the Repo-bot in language one has no reason to think it causes detrimental effects on the borg's operating systems (again, a rule introduced in a book produced later cannot logically have a prior book expected to put in an exception when no such rule existed to list it as an exception at the time). The internal systems are within the range of what you can expect for external weapons to require for power (given how widely in some cases you can see for ranges, payload, and damage for weapons that all use the same e-clip) so the demands of an external weapon are well within what we can expect the supply to handle without being burdened by it.

On the note about the ATL-7 being over-powered. If it is used as a rapid fire weapon, then yeah, it's overpowered. Because ten guys can purchase ten of these, and buy ten clips, and still not be close to a fraction of a Glitterboys price, nor really manage to come up with a pretty respectable amount of a Glitterboys combat power. But if you hook them up to a SAMAS, suddenly a short handful of 1 million credit suits are now way, way more powerful than a single Glitterboy for significantly less than the cost of a Glitterboy. If you do the same thing, but have the SAMAS have to reload, it becomes a lot more "balanced", and the ATL-7 remains what its supposed to be, a heavy energy support weapon that falls under Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons instead of rifle.

And about the JA-12, its greatest "fault" is that it is too good for no real reason. If it had been a range 2,000' weapon with a slightly higher price tag than a comparable Wilk's item (Wilks 547 say), we might not care. It is a main battle rifle, not a sniping weapon, it didn't "need" a range that high. (Most people would be hard pressed to hit consistently at a range of 1,200', never mind 4,000!) Even a range 3.000' weapon wouldn't be so bothersome (Japan, AT-88), though it is still longer ranged than a rifle tends to need to be. (Seriously, most such shots tend to be under a thousand feet, usually well under half that. Even in desert combat, the ranges were rarely better than a grand or so. OTOH, a Juicer isn't a regular human, so...) But as a range 4,000' weapon, with everything else thrown in, it stands a whole lot, but its price seems to come up a bit shy.

Hmm...interesting...the AT-88, a range 3,000' laser rifle, does not list a separate range listing for its grenade launcher...it is then also a range 3,000' weapon, and in the same rough price range as the JA-12? (54K vs. 50K Black Market prices)

I'm not sure how you find it 'too good for no real reason', perhaps you mean the price is too good for what it offers up? Or do you mean it has some quality (I gather range based on your focus on it) that's simply too good compared to other weapons of the same general category?

[Subjugator]

It is irrelevant. The Repo Bot and Machine People do not have penalties for powering weapons. If there were, they'd have been mentioned. For reasons unknown, they are exceptions.

/Sub

[say652]

Now back to the JA12, damn good and reliable weapon but for my juicers i usually have them use a railgun. i like the idea of a super soldier carrying a huge machine gun, i also don't play the hide and snipe style juicer. Bad guys????? CHARGE!!!!!!!

[Subjugator]

Sniper FTW. I can't stand the whole burst play thing (unless it's in an FPS, and then I can't stand sniper mode...lol).

[Killer Cyborg]

--Ok then in the HU Guide a LAW and Tank guns still do similar damage. Though now looking at the weapons the ATL-7 would be more like a recoilles rifle. Which also does similar damage to a tank gun and if the cost listed in the book is accurate at all then it is dirt cheap compared to a tank gun too.

Still not a good comparison; the CR-1 is the version of a recoilless rifle, more or less, and it does what.... 1d6x10 MD max?
And the GB isn't really a tank; it's a robot. Tank cannons (even with mega-damage tanks) don't do anywhere near the damage the GB can crank out, for the most part.

--Originally I stated the weapon as it's meant to be used can only do 1-2 shots per melee. Yes connected to a borg or PA it would be every attack like a Boomgun. If that is the only way the weapon is broken then it isn't broken. It's an exception and even then the exception still does not make it superior to a Boomgun when mounted to a Glitterboy.

Are you agreeing, then, that it IS a way that the gun is broken?

--Cost between an ATL-7 and a Boomgun is pretty inaccuarate comparison as well since no way even a 2 man team could carry and use a Boomgun. A more accurate comparison would be a similar use weapon.

This is an edge for the ATL-7, not for the Boom Gun, so it doesn't make the comparison inaccurate- it highlights it.
You have a cheaper, more portable weapon that does more damage than the previous BEST gun in the game, a gun that is generally still used as a ceiling limit for firepower.

--No my point was not that the Boomgun was superior but that infinite ammo of the ATL-7 when used in an uncommon way does not make IT superior.

Infinity is superior to 1,000.

ATL-7: Range - 900m, 3d6x10+20 damage, 1-2 shots per melee as long as there eclips to be had. Cost 100 000 plus cost of eclips, about 5-6000 per new clip or 1500 per recharge. Encumberance - used by a two man team to carry and use effectively. Ammo size - about the size of a standard assault rifle ammo clip. Availability - Outside of South America: Rare. In South America - Uncommon. Can be be completely mitigated by magic or partially mitigated by laser resistant armours.

Boomgun: Range - 3200m, 3d6x10 damage, as long as there is ammo it can fire every time the trigger is pulled when using a belt or 2-4 (estimated) times per melee if hand loading a round for every shot. Cost ? (but likely much higher than 100 000) plus cost of ammo, about ? per round (I recall 200 per round but do not remember where that was). Encumberance - used by a multi man team to be lugged around and anchored for use. Ammo size - each one is about the size of a Soda Can. Availability - North America: Rare to Uncommon, South America: Rare to uncommon.

For me the above makes them pretty balanced but that's just me.

That's because you left out the cost to the Boom Gun: CR 5-10 million

Comparing the two weapons:
Range: Boom Gun wins.
Damage: ATL-7 wins.
Rate Of Fire: Boom Gun, unless you hook the ATL-7 to a good power supply (as you suggested), in which case it's a tie.
Encumberance: ATL-7 wins.
Ammo: Boom Gun wins... unless you hook the ATL-7 to a good power supply (as you suggested), in which case the ATL-7 wins. (Tie at most, going with the "1,000 is effectively infinite" theory).

So that's Boom Gun 3, ATL-7 2, looking at just the weapons as they come (aka the ATL-7 doesn't have a work-around for the ammo limitations)... except the Boom Gun costs fifty to one hundred times more.

You buy a 1-year nuclear power supply for that ATL-7, and that bumps the cost of the weapon up to the point where the Boom Gun (sans Power Armor) costs only 5x-10x more.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can't find any references in the books to Juicers not liking squishies using Juice gear.
Anybody got a page number to help me out?

[jaymz]

--I corrected my self about the CR-1. The ATL-7 being comparable to the recoilless rifle though still stands based on the RRs rate of fire and damage. It's RoF is abut the same as the ATL-7. under 10 per minute (2 per melee or so). Remeber it is only one shot at a time and have to reload after very shot just as the RR has to do.

--I do not see the gun itself as broken. I do see this application/use of the gun as broken and something that is need of a specific ruling in regards to this weapon as it seems to have been written and published without actually taking the "tied into a nuclear power supply" into account.

--I'll concede that as yes cost is much more in favour for the ATL-7

--But it still does not make the ATL-7 superior to the boomgun overall. At least not to me.

--Thanks I couldn't find the cost of the boomgun. Still seems to come relatively on par with each other to one degree or another, but that's just me.

--You left out that I do also compare the cost of the ATL-7 to the Boomgun to be similar to that of the Recoilless Rifle versus a tank gun. The former is dirt cheap to the latter. The former could have an equal rate of fire and more ammo than the latter. Yet the ATL-7 is considered broken while nothing at all is said about the Recoilless Rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

JA-12 vs. Wilk's 457
Range: JA-12 (4,000' vs. 2,000')
Damage: JA-12 (1d6x10+10 MD vs. 1d6x10 MD)
Ammunition: JA-12 (60 shots max, vs. 30 shots max)
Extras: JA-12 (grenade launcher & +1 strike on aimed shots vs +1 strike on aimed shot
Cost: Wilk's 457 (CR 40,000 vs CR 50,000)

Winner: JA-12
The only thing that the Wilk's has going for it is the lower price, and the JA-12's advantages are well worth that price difference.

JA-12 vs. ATL-7
Range: JA-12 (4,000' vs. 3,000')
Damage: JA-12 (1d6x10+10 MD per action average vs. 1d6x10+8.666 MD per action average)
Ammunition: JA-12 (60 shots max, vs. 1 shot max)
Extras: Tie (grenade launcher & +1 strike on aimed shots vs Incredibly High Single-Shot Damage)
Cost: JA-12 (CR 50,000 vs. CR 100,000)

Winner: JA-12
Hooked to a nuclear power supply, the ATL-7 would win for firepower, but the cost would be bumped up to around 1.1 million credits... so the JA-12 would likely win out overall in any case.

JA-12 vs. Wilk's 1000 Pulse Laser Cannon
Range: JA-12 (4,000' vs. 3,000')
Damage: Wilk's 1000 (3d4x10 MD per attack vs. 1d6x10+10 MD per attack)
Ammunition: Wilk's 1000 (240 shots max vs. 60 shots max)
Extras: JA-12 (grenade launcher & +1 strike on aimed shots vs weighing 70 lbs total)
Cost: JA-12 (CR 40,000 vs CR 150,000)

Winner: JA-12
While the Wilk's 1000 has double the fire-power per shot, and can hold a LOT more ammunition... you could by three JA-12's for the price of one Wilk's 1000, and have a chunk of change left over.
Also, the added versatility from the JA-12's grenade launcher, and the incredible bulk of the Wilk's 1000 combine to give the JA-12 the higher edge for most purposes.

[jaymz]

Yeah JA-12 is definitely the Best bang for the buck in terms of a balance of firepower, range, ammo and versatility.

[Killer Cyborg]

--I corrected my self about the CR-1. The ATL-7 being comparable to the recoilless rifle though still stands based on the RRs rate of fire and damage. It's RoF is abut the same as the ATL-7. under 10 per minute (2 per melee or so). Remeber it is only one shot at a time and have to reload after very shot just as the RR has to do.

There are ways around the ammo limitations of the ATL-7, ranging from a Gizmoteer or other magic/psychic alterations, to adding a nuclear power supply.

--I do not see the gun itself as broken. I do see this application/use of the gun as broken and something that is need of a specific ruling in regards to this weapon as it seems to have been written and published without actually taking the "tied into a nuclear power supply" into account.

That's one of the ways in which it is broken; it doesn't take into account a relatively common modification made by players in most games.

--I'll concede that as yes cost is much more in favour for the ATL-7

So if you have two weapons of roughly equal utility, but one of them costs 50x more than the other one.... how balanced are the two weapons?

--Thanks I couldn't find the cost of the boomgun.

RUE 72
Black Market Cost: 25 million credits for a new, undamaged, fully powered Glitter Boy complete with Boom Gun and ammunition.
15-20 million for a rebuilt GB or without gun.

A GB without the gun is CR 5-10 million less than a comparable GB that still has the gun.

--You left out that I do also compare the cost of the ATL-7 to the Boomgun to be similar to that of the Recoilless Rifle versus a tank gun. The former is dirt cheap to the latter. The former could have an equal rate of fire and more ammo than the latter. Yet the ATL-7 is considered broken while nothing at all is said about the Recoilless Rifle.

I simply don't see the relevance of the comparison.
The ATL-7 is not a recoilless rifle.
A GB is not a tank.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and grapes to grapefruit.
Rifts HAS tanks. The GB is better than the tanks.

[The Jack]

I can't find any references in the books to Juicers not liking squishies using Juice gear.
Anybody got a page number to help me out?

I attempted to locate the reference after reading the post above. I was unable to find anything, but perhaps I have an earlier printing of the book than the one attributed.

[jaymz]

I simply don't see the relevance of the comparison.
The ATL-7 is not a recoilless rifle.
A GB is not a tank.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and grapes to grapefruit.
Rifts HAS tanks. The GB is better than the tanks.

Depends on the tank actually.....but the boom gun is essentially the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun in terms of damage, range, cost, size etc.

Thus the ATL-7 comparison as the Recoilless rifle. Same/similar damage as a boom gun/tank gun(and oddly looking it up again the RR does more damage than a tank gun just as hte ATL-7 does more damage than the boomgun), significantly lesser range, similar RoFs due to the need to reload after every shot, unless somehow made to be auto loading (or in the case of the ATL-7 continuous ammo) and both are dirt cheap compared to the boomgun/tankgun. I see the comaprison as valid, You do not. No point in arguing that any further.

[Killer Cyborg]

I simply don't see the relevance of the comparison.
The ATL-7 is not a recoilless rifle.
A GB is not a tank.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and grapes to grapefruit.
Rifts HAS tanks. The GB is better than the tanks.

Depends on the tank actually.....but the boom gun is essentially the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun in terms of damage, range, cost, size etc.

No.
A Rifts Tank gun is the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun.

[jaymz]

---if that is how you consider the weapon broken then ok by that it is broken, but as published/presented, to me it is not broken. However I do not see players modifying weapons to link to a nuclear power supply as often as you seem too.

---Ah but they are not of "equal" utility. Boomgun can hit from MUCH farther away and not only that the ATL-7 can be completely mitigated by a not so uncommon spell. Is there anything that completely mitigates the boomgun the same way?

---Thanks, I knew it was out there

[jaymz]

I simply don't see the relevance of the comparison.
The ATL-7 is not a recoilless rifle.
A GB is not a tank.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and grapes to grapefruit.
Rifts HAS tanks. The GB is better than the tanks.

Depends on the tank actually.....but the boom gun is essentially the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun in terms of damage, range, cost, size etc.

No.
A Rifts Tank gun is the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun.

And what is the Glitterboy almost always referrenced as? A walking tank.

[Nightmask]

---if that is how you consider the weapon broken then ok by that it is broken, but as published/presented, to me it is not broken. However I do not see players modifying weapons to link to a nuclear power supply as often as you seem too.

---Ah but they are not of "equal" utility. Boomgun can hit from MUCH farther away and not only that the ATL-7 can be completely mitigated by a not so uncommon spell. Is there anything that completely mitigates the boomgun the same way?

---Thanks, I knew it was out there

Given the introduction of high density power packs given many times more shots than a standard e-clip that you can hook energy weapons up to it's not like Palladium doesn't already offer ways of coming pretty close to the unlimited shots for an external energy weapon as power armor and vehicle sorts can get from built-in energy weapon systems. You could almost get an entire melee's worth of shots off from the ATL-7 in such a situation, but as I've noted before the weapon unlike every other weapon puts many times more demand on the e-clip/power pack powering it and if no other weapon did then certainly it should impose penalties if not have a risk of immediately destroying an e-clip from having it dump its entire energy capacity in that instant for a single shot. The average weapon drains what, 5%-10% of an e-clip per shot? Meanwhile the ATL-7 drains what? 100%. Your average battery tends to explode from that kind of treatment, and it definitely doesn't last long if you do that kind of thing repeatedly.

[Killer Cyborg]

I simply don't see the relevance of the comparison.
The ATL-7 is not a recoilless rifle.
A GB is not a tank.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and grapes to grapefruit.
Rifts HAS tanks. The GB is better than the tanks.

Depends on the tank actually.....but the boom gun is essentially the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun in terms of damage, range, cost, size etc.

No.
A Rifts Tank gun is the Rifts equivalent of a tank gun.

And what is the Glitterboy almost always referrenced as? A walking tank.

Really?
I've only heard it really called "power armor" or a "robot vehicle."
Either way, a metaphorical tank isn't really a tank.
Real tanks are tanks.

[Killer Cyborg]

---if that is how you consider the weapon broken then ok by that it is broken, but as published/presented, to me it is not broken. However I do not see players modifying weapons to link to a nuclear power supply as often as you seem too.

As Nightmask points out, there are other high-storage devices other than nuclear power.
Northern Gun Self-Charging Power Packs, for example, snap into the normal E-Clip port of a weapon, but provide 6-7x the power of a normal E-Clip.
A CS Mini-Power Pack would require modification to the weapon, but it holds 2x the amount of a normal Long E-Clip.
And so forth.

---Ah but they are not of "equal" utility. Boomgun can hit from MUCH farther away and not only that the ATL-7 can be completely mitigated by a not so uncommon spell. Is there anything that completely mitigates the boomgun the same way?

You were claiming that they were pretty balanced, not including price.
If you want to change your position, we can compare the weapons more thoroughly.

As for "Impervious To Energy," it's a factor, but not one that negates all the other differences.
If you're not up against mages, it's not a factor.
If the mage doesn't know you're there, it's not a factor, because he'll be dead after your first shot in most situations (average damage is 125 MD).

---Thanks, I knew it was out there

No problem.

[jaymz]

---Nightmask also pointed out that this would also come with it's own issues and thus it's own balances

---Dead after the first show would then be dependent on how you interpret the GI-Joe rule.....

---As you said elsewhere i think this is now an issue of how we define "broken" individually. A bigger discussion to be had elsewhere so in that regard I am more than happy to move on KC. As usual, discussions with you are thoroughly enjoyable

[Killer Cyborg]

---Nightmask also pointed out that this would also come with it's own issues and thus it's own balances

He proposed a house rule.
Not the same thing.

---Dead after the first shot would then be dependent on how you interpret the GI-Joe rule.....

I interpret it as Kevin has said in person that it should be interpreted, that it only applies to a limited degree.
In the example he gave me, iirc, a 30 MD difference was enough to ignore the GI-Joe Rule, and that seemed more like a clear case in his mind than a minimum damage requirement.

---As you said elsewhere i think this is now an issue of how we define "broken" individually. A bigger discussion to be had elsewhere so in that regard I am more than happy to move on KC. As usual, discussions with you are thoroughly enjoyable

[zeroclue]

Old topic but if a laser has no recoil why does the triple pulse shot lose the +1 to strike?

[Mack]

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