How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts

[Eclipse]

Because they're heroes of the megaverse (TM)

[Balabanto]

We get more people to play Rifts by short-shrifting the other systems.

Let's look at the marketing base. Each Rifts book sells ten times more than anything else Palladium releases except Robotech. If Palladium dropped everything else and only did Rifts and Robotech, which are their big sellers, they would have a more reliable release schedule and make tons of money.

The other thing we need is for Palladium to release it's products on time. Set a promise date and stick to it. So many products from this company have been delayed that trust in release dates is low. This is the primary thing that needs to be fixed. Customers do not trust anyone in the modern world who can't deliver their stuff on time.

Underpromise and overdeliver. Don't talk too much about release dates. Say "In development" until you have a draft. Talk about working on it. Tell people it's at the printer. That's it!

[Snow Hawk]

I say just GM a game and new players will come. In the past 2-3 years i have got about 7 new players all under age 25.

On a side note to everybody that is complaining about the new books not coming out on time. Is this really such a big deal? With all the books that are out you should have plenty of materiel for years of game play.

[jaymz]

I say just GM a game and new players will come. In the past 2-3 years i have got about 7 new players all under age 25.

On a side note to everybody that is complaining about the new books not coming out on time. Is this really such a big deal? With all the books that are out you should have plenty of materiel for years of game play.

It's not so much about not having enough material, well in most cases for most people, but the fact Kevin repeatedly says one thing but never lives up to it.

When I am told AWESOME BOOK X will be out in Y month then I expect it to be out in Y month. Do I know better now? Yes and whenever I see an actual month attached I just laugh and that is not a good thing because if a 25+ year fan is laughing at it, you can imagine what the outsiders are thinking when they see it.

[Eashamahel]

Are they even still in business? Obviously they but honestly with the number of stores there are, there is only one store in Toronto that regularly stocks Palladium titles. There are several stores throughout Toronto, a city of 2-3 million, and only ONE carries PB's products with any regularity. Once you get outside of Toronto it isn't hard to see why people ask if they are still in business.

Interesting note, I moved to Toronto about a year ago, and this last weekend I went on a bit of a roadtrip back towards Ottawa, and stopped at every place along the way I lived previously, and went to all the old gaming stores I used to go to. Four stores in three cities. Only 1 had ANY Palladium books, and of those, none were new, all had been burried in shelf for a few years by then.

The single largest of these has a huge basement store, tons of tables, and split about 50/50 for RPGs and Miniatures. This was the one I spent the most time in, as I had one of my new players with me and we were there picking out her first set of dice, and while there I searched around. I searched the new RPG section, around shelves dedicated to the Warhammer RPGs (both lines) the new D&D, and White Wolf, along with many game systems I didn't even recognize, and found not a single Palladium book. The last time I had been in there, Triax 2 had just came out, and they had ordered a single copy. After not finding anything in the new section, I decided to brave the used/old section, bookshelves filled with Conan titles, the entire old Changeling WoD series, and a lifetimes worth of stuff, all of which are for sale, but also for use of the customers and often used by the employees to run games. Again, not a single book.

At this point, I was actually kind of sad. I was hoping to maybe pick up one of the older Rifts books I didn't have, something in the late teens maybe, or look through there new releases, so I asked the owner if he had any Palladium products in stock. His answere? Nope. They order a book or two of each of the new Rifts books, but that's it. Any other Palladium titles, I ask? Nope, he replies, they're all dead titles.

They are all dead titles. Wow. So I started thinking about it.
BTS?
Heroes?
Ninjas and Superspies?
Yep, all pretty much dead titles. What about Palladium Fantasy, the game whose rulebook I am planning on getting sometime this month (never had my own copy)? Nope, pretty sure it's dead, when's the last time anything came out for it, if it's been over a year, it's dead.

Wow. And here is why nobody there plays Palladium games. They are often incomplete to a dramatic degree (BTS), are totally dead systems (everything except Rifts, maybe Dead Reign, and the new Robotech perhaphs?), or have presented nothing of note in so long nobody there even bothers.

Now, to be fair, when I was visiting around, there were only about 20 people in store, and only half were actually there to run RPGs (the rest miniatures games), but not a single person had anything resembling hope that Palladium was somehow going to come back and compete. Many of them shared my love for Rifts (played it forever ago, used to love it, ect), but as one said, take a look at the new Warhammer RPGs, their level and amount of product, and consider how much Palladium has put out for Rifts and Fantasy in the same time, and other companies are drowning them in a superiour product. As far as they were concerned, Rifts was a dead/niche product.


Now, I am getting more people to play Rifts, because I love Rifts, and I love to give Palladium money. I have wall hanging prints, mugs, heck, I have an army of miniatures (legit, a small Imperial Guard allied with Tau army using CS models), and I am not going to get the Palladium Fantasy rulebook anymore. I don't know what book I am going to get, or what system I am going to get into, but I can't ignore where the level of other games is in comparison, and again, watching my new player be amazed at other products and not having even a single Palladium one to look at in store really put it into perspective.

What can we do to get more people to play Rifts? Run games. That's it. As others have said, it's not our jobs to market the company tirelessly, re-design things, fix rules, gloss over issues, or do anything else. It's not our job at all, it's our hobby.


My new gamer? She chose a set of Elven script dice. Interesting choice for an Operator with an Ulti-Max, I thought. 'Does Rifts make dice?' 'Nope.'

[say652]

no luck on converting any rifters but amazing success getting people to play H.U. i guess people feel a marine platoon could take down a dragon with gunfire. i offered both games up(nobody understood the concept of megadamage) together.

[Sureshot]

To be honest though from what I can see it's not really about if a rpg is dead or not. If the rules of the dead rpg are good people will still play it. Gamers still play Star Wars D6 even if that rpg line is dead. Not like before but it's still played. The response I get is that a person would love to play in one of PB settings. As many find the settings interesting. The rules on the other hand not so much. No matter how much gamer xyz find Palladium Fantasy interesting as a background they can't swallow their distaste of the rules to try it. As well it's not like PB is the only rpg company on the market with interesting setting in their rpgs either.

It's not like others are not trying to get new players. They are. Unforuntelly gamers have moved on to easier more rules consistent rpg with companies for the most part wanting to hear feedback of all kinds. The place I work at they still refuse let alone want to admit that it's internet sales hurting the book industry. Every time I or others bring it up they bury their heads in the sand. I recently got into a argument with my new manager because he is blaming the staff for poor sales. When I pointed out respectfully that I do my best at work and that it was internet sales. Well he kind of did not like that. To be blunt I'm not taking blame for company policy that is losing the company money. I did not get into trouble as I said was respectful and polite. I also did send a message that I was not taking blame for poor sales.

[DhAkael]

To be honest though from what I can see it's not really about if a rpg is dead or not. If the rules of the dead rpg are good people will still play it. Gamers still play Star Wars D6 even if that rpg line is dead. Not like before but it's still played. The response I get is that a person would love to play in one of PB settings. As many find the settings interesting. The rules on the other hand not so much. No matter how much gamer xyz find Palladium Fantasy interesting as a background they can't swallow their distaste of the rules to try it. As well it's not like PB is the only rpg company on the market with interesting setting in their rpgs either.

I'm still looking for a way to get a decent game of 'Mekton Zeta' going. Sadly the Editor n' chief of R.Talsorian kinda put their company into the sewage-drain with some really really REALLy stupid marketing & creative decisions.

[Marrowlight]

Started skimming when things started to devolve into bickering, so apologies if this is redundant, but....

GM it.

Few, if any, of us can really affect policy at the top end of the company, no matter how often we post, write, or call. Slugging it out in the trenches may be hard [or] unglamorous, but it's the easiest way for any one of us to get more people playing the game. With that in mind, to add to Subbie's quote - I find it best to actually shrink the scope of Rifts, or any of the larger Palladium titles.

Focus and build everything on just a couple key books - that way, regardless of the age or experience of your players, there's only so much for them to absorb. Beyond that, while it's really nice to know you can play Seventeen different games with these rules, I find most people really only care about the game they're actually playing, not the ones they could play five years from now. Take the main book, maybe a conversion book, and virtually any one World Book or Dimension book, and any of us should be able to craft a quality adventure, complete with a diverse cast of classes (and even races) for the party to sink their teeth into. Sure, this probably won't work for people who've been playing Rifts for over a decade - but we're talking about bringing in new blood. Even folks who've been gaming for over twenty years probably haven't taken a sentient scarecrow, a fire-flinging psychic, and a mutated bulldog with a fondness for explosives and thrown them up against a hipster hydra intent on enslaving a bunch of dinosaur wrangling rednecks down in the swamps of Georgia.

Rifts is weird, but familiar. There's a lot of other things to be said about it, about the rules and the layouts and the dated this and the never released that...but so what. Suck it up, let the weird out, give them something to fight for, to compete for, and let the good times roll.

I will never trust Palladium to hit a deadline again, ever. Nothing will change that - but there's still plenty of madness already at our fingertips. And as long as that's what you bring to the table, why would your gamers ever really care about a bunch of unreleased nonsense? They've got much bigger problems figuring out how to smuggle this here moonshine back into the States. Stuff's better than anything Lonestar's synth-labs have crapped out in years. They'll make a fortune. Just gotta save the distiller's wife from those Splugorth slavers first. Easy Peasy, Lemon Squeezy, right?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

To be honest though from what I can see it's not really about if a rpg is dead or not. If the rules of the dead rpg are good people will still play it. Gamers still play Star Wars D6 even if that rpg line is dead. Not like before but it's still played. The response I get is that a person would love to play in one of PB settings. As many find the settings interesting. The rules on the other hand not so much. No matter how much gamer xyz find Palladium Fantasy interesting as a background they can't swallow their distaste of the rules to try it. As well it's not like PB is the only rpg company on the market with interesting setting in their rpgs either.

It's not like others are not trying to get new players. They are. Unforuntelly gamers have moved on to easier more rules consistent rpg with companies for the most part wanting to hear feedback of all kinds. The place I work at they still refuse let alone want to admit that it's internet sales hurting the book industry. Every time I or others bring it up they bury their heads in the sand. I recently got into a argument with my new manager because he is blaming the staff for poor sales. When I pointed out respectfully that I do my best at work and that it was internet sales. Well he kind of did not like that. To be blunt I'm not taking blame for company policy that is losing the company money. I did not get into trouble as I said was respectful and polite. I also did send a message that I was not taking blame for poor sales.

I dont even buy physical books anymore. I've fully transitioned to ebooks for my pleasure reading, and i usually get them straight from the author or publishers website. If your managers cant understand that ebooks and online sales (particularly since Amazon has the infrastructure to eat the cost on free shipping) aren't going to cripple them unless they change their business, they're dumb as rocks.

[Sureshot]

I dont even buy physical books anymore. I've fully transitioned to ebooks for my pleasure reading, and i usually get them straight from the author or publishers website. If your managers cant understand that ebooks and online sales (particularly since Amazon has the infrastructure to eat the cost on free shipping) aren't going to cripple them unless they change their business, they're dumb as rocks.

I still like the traditional print book. Yet thinking of going ebook because of a lack of space and that the ebook version is cheaper. Its not so much not knowibng. Just greed and wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Well the consumers are voting with their wallets. Despite being told its about the principle what it real comes down to is saving money. What I find dubious is the strategy of trying to be like Walmart and carrying more non-book product. Yet also making the non-book product more expensive. Consumers like myself look around for the best deal. There was a place in my area that had Souvalkis for 3.50$ each. They made a killing with that price. Recently they raised it to 4.50$. I could understand a 25 to 5 cent increase.Those souvalikis are not that good .

[jaymz]

To be honest though from what I can see it's not really about if a rpg is dead or not. If the rules of the dead rpg are good people will still play it. Gamers still play Star Wars D6 even if that rpg line is dead. Not like before but it's still played. The response I get is that a person would love to play in one of PB settings. As many find the settings interesting. The rules on the other hand not so much. No matter how much gamer xyz find Palladium Fantasy interesting as a background they can't swallow their distaste of the rules to try it. As well it's not like PB is the only rpg company on the market with interesting setting in their rpgs either.

I'm still looking for a way to get a decent game of 'Mekton Zeta' going. Sadly the Editor n' chief of R.Talsorian kinda put their company into the sewage-drain with some really really REALLy stupid marketing & creative decisions.

Yeah...and because of that we'll never see Gundam the RPG

[Dunia]

If someone took a Sharpie to your favorite painting, would you be outraged?

Of Course, it is destruction of Property/Art/Art History.

If your favorite author decided to take what you thought was his best book out of circulation, would you attempt to talk him out of it?

No, it is not my story to write, I will mourn it, but look for other things i the book that i liked. Or in the next book. or the book after that. Just because an author tales out my favorite thing, does not mean that the author is now on my foe list.

If your favorite band was supporting a cause, would you too look into that cause?

I do not know, I do not care that much for the bands that play to look up such things, I do not have favorite bands, just favorite songs and those vary with each month.

If your favorite television program were cancelled, would you complain to the network?

I have done so 2 times: Veronica Mars and Firefly. But it is nothing i do at the moment that the show is cancelled.

If your favorite game line disappoints you, do you hop on the Internet to complain?

Yes, obviously. I have done so with three games that I like: Vampire (Revised) - where I got a long letter from the Head Author of the game and he explained why he had done a certai thing and why the game moved in the direction that I disliked. Not just did he do this very respectfully and politely, he also sent me a copy of stuff that would happen in a future book that would deal with the matter and asking me respectfully not to share it with any other fans.
When I got the reply, I understood why he had done the way he did and I understood the story better and it made me like and praise the subject.

When I wrote to Mongoose Games. I go a long talk with the main creator of the game line and he and I came to terms with the matter of subject and at the moment, they are planning to write a book where some of my ideas will be part of the book. Not much, but still.

When I wrote to PB - I was totally ignored and that was long before I ever wrote anything negative about PB or Rifts.

Creators owe fans because fans support creators. Fans support creators because the possibility of future creations ceases if fans don't.

Also, you don't have to care about Coca-Cola the way you must about handful of dudes toiling in near obscurity in a niche market. Coca-Cola is going to be produced anyway no matter what you do. But if you want a new Rifts book, you might have to metaphorically sell folks the game.[/quote]

I rather see it this way: If PB wants to keep me a fan, they should listen to the fan base and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I refuse to sell a game to friends and people that I wholeheartedly do not support, so until the company at least show some interest in listening to their fans, I will not praise PB or sing hallelujah every time Kevin tells us how awesome and hoe much I will love a book.

[Damian Magecraft]

I rather see it this way: If PB wants to keep me a fan, they should listen to the fan base and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I refuse to sell a game to friends and people that I wholeheartedly do not support, so until the company at least show some interest in listening to their fans, I will not praise PB or sing hallelujah every time Kevin tells us how awesome and hoe much I will love a book.

They do listen...
You just dont like the answer.

[Killer Cyborg]

I rather see it this way: If PB wants to keep me a fan, they should listen to the fan base and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. I refuse to sell a game to friends and people that I wholeheartedly do not support, so until the company at least show some interest in listening to their fans, I will not praise PB or sing hallelujah every time Kevin tells us how awesome and hoe much I will love a book.

They do listen...
You just dont like the answer.

Agreed.
There are far, far, far too many rules and changes to the game that have come about due to fan interest, against my own direct wishes.
Not because Kevin doesn't listen to ME, but because he listens to the fans in general.

[jaymz]

GI Joe rule and the -10/-5 rule being to very prominent ones IIRC.

[Eashamahel]

GI Joe rule and the -10/-5 rule being to very prominent ones IIRC.

(sorry to get off track, but which rules are those, i don't get the references)

[jaymz]

GI Joe rule - basically even having 2 md will stop any MD attack (within reason but reason is based on each gm's call)

-10/-5 rule - that's the penalty to dodge modern weapons (bullets or energy, and you do not get to use any bonuses either just flat d20 roll) at 10ft and 50ft respectively iirc the last incarnation of the rule in RUE

EDIT - and i got partly ninja'd by the ninja

[Eashamahel]

So, a rule that makes it vastly harder to avoid damage (probably more 'realistic') and a rule that makes it vastly more likely to survive damage that you can't avoid, because of the first rule (extremely 'un-realistic'). Hm, those seem like necessary additions that totally don't bog the game down.

Anyways, this topic has actually been really making me think, and I've decided to talk to some of the guys I used to, and still fairly often do, play Rifts with, and see their opinions on it.

One of them has held Underseas as his favourite book of all time, a little more than a year ago we had a very long, excellent conversation about it on a road trip. When Lemuria came out, I was blown away and contacted him to tell him, and he thought it was awesome. Now, about a year later, I asked him if he ever picked it up. Nope. Why not? Well, he didn't even know it came out, to start, since none of the stores he goes to carry PB product, and even though he thought it was great that it came out, it was more of a 'wow, it finally did, huh?', than a 'That's great, I'm going to order it!' Even though we still actively play Rifts, he just isn't interested in getting the book. He might eventually, or I might get it for him as a present, but there's no immediacy to it for him.

Another has been a fan of Rifts forever (actually introduced it to me in highschool, a decade and a half ago), and was also a big BTS fan, and a HU fan. More than both though, he's a Chaos Earth fan. More than anyone in our group, he loves the Chaos Earth stuff. He'd had all the released books, and was anxiously awaiting First Responders, and I think had a Rifter or two with Chaos Earth stuff in it. Anyways, some time ago, he realized that along the way he'd lost one of his CE books (we travel around and play a lot), and to my knowledge, he has still never replaced it. Why? Well, he has pretty much given up on the game ever being finished/new books ever being released, so it's just not a priority for him.

I have similiar stories about friends who bought other PB titles, especially BTS. man, we loved the old BTS, so when the new one came out, several of us were all over it, until we realized we were never going to see another book for it, or effectively see the main book even completed.

All of these guys are closing in on two decades of PB fan-hood, and none are really interested anymore. Not because the games lost it's luster, and we've moved on to new stuff, we all still play Rifts, pretty much solely Rifts in fact, and very few other RPGs, but because as far as any of us can tell, PB releasing product is an unpredictable and unreliable occurence. We still buy some of the books (or I do) and other PB merchandise, because we are willing to pay money for things we don't need, but enjoy (Rifts coffee mugs ), and because of that we are often trying to collect more of the older PB stuff. We would all be willing to pay more for higher quality new stuff, or even pay more for new stuff, but it's almost impossible for them to give money to Palladium. If a consumer can't find ways to give a company it's money, that company is going to be in trouble.

We would buy re-released original collectors item books, heck, we'd buy 'em even if we already own the paperback originals (some of them are in rough shape), but there's so few ways to actually support Palladium by purchasing product.


Anyways, all of that was just me inquiring around, and the reason I did was that those players, older players who love the games and always supported the company, are the ones who are going to be introducing new players, because new players sure aren't going to be drawn to the game from stores (or from the Palladium website, but that's a whole other topic).

Recently one of those friends introduced a group to RPGs through Palladium Fantasy, and they loved it. Or rather, they loved the experience, and they 'liked' the system. After a few sessions they were struggling to try and keep the game reasonable (characters panicking when being stabbed, though they've only lost 8 of their 45 SDC, let alone any real HP damage, wearing armour to stay in character, ect), but they liked the experience of Roleplaying. They will no doubt continue to do so, but it's unlikely that they will pick up Palladium Fantasy, when they decide what they want to do in the future.

I actually GM'd a Rifts game for them for a night as well. Used my old special edition Rulebook and that was all, and they loved it. Basically felt it was the best game they'd ever played (and we ran out of time before they even got to the end of the story), but that had little to do with the game system/company, and lots to do with the playing. Now that I'm not there, when they go looking for an RPG to pick up and start on their own, I can guarantee it won't be Rifts.

[The Beast]

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

I think we can start by:

1 = Not making passive-aggresive posts that insult a portion of the fanbase.

2 = Not attacking new posters when they come here and ask legitamite questions about the rules, system, books, release dates, or whatever.

[Damian Magecraft]

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

I think we can start by:

1 = Not making passive-aggresive posts that insult a portion of the fanbase.

2 = Not attacking new posters when they come here and ask legitamite questions about the rules, system, books, release dates, or whatever.

this

[Nightmask]

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

I think we can start by:

1 = Not making passive-aggresive posts that insult a portion of the fanbase.

2 = Not attacking new posters when they come here and ask legitamite questions about the rules, system, books, release dates, or whatever.

A definite must, you don't keep growing and adding fans if you insult some members (for whatever reason) until they decide to find a game where the fanbase doesn't behave so poorly towards each other.

[DhAkael]

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

I think we can start by:

1 = Not making passive-aggresive posts that insult a portion of the fanbase.

2 = Not attacking new posters when they come here and ask legitamite questions about the rules, system, books, release dates, or whatever.

A definite must, you don't keep growing and adding fans if you insult some members (for whatever reason) until they decide to find a game where the fanbase doesn't behave so poorly towards each other.

Whitewolf is worse for this behaviour, but yeah...
Sadly trolls be trolls and you'll find them on the net no matter where you go.

[Nightmask]

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

I think we can start by:

1 = Not making passive-aggresive posts that insult a portion of the fanbase.

2 = Not attacking new posters when they come here and ask legitamite questions about the rules, system, books, release dates, or whatever.

A definite must, you don't keep growing and adding fans if you insult some members (for whatever reason) until they decide to find a game where the fanbase doesn't behave so poorly towards each other.

Whitewolf is worse for this behaviour, but yeah...
Sadly trolls be trolls and you'll find them on the net no matter where you go.

True, but the Palladium forums does a better than average job at least minimizing such behavior, and it's definitely not easy deciding when someone should get a warning or if what they've said is tolerable (since you can't give warnings for everything as you'll quickly have no one left) or should just get a 'tone it down unless you want a warning' notice.

[Noon]

I don't think having a nice forum is the be all and end all of this - you have to actually have a product worth using.

Alot of folk here like the setting - but that's probably indicative of how the game can't expand. It's managed to bring in people who love setting - but not anyone else, because only the people who love the setting persist in trying to actually run the game (OR the people who love the setting merely collect the game books to just read - which gives Kevin a false sense that each book sold indicates people are playing)

Maybe hit the market of people who just want to play? Instead of just the market who love the setting so much they will eventually hash together enough prep to play.

[jesse04]

I think step one is to stop complaining about the system.

Any why is that ? How to get more people to play Rifts if the GM must fight versus the system all the time ?
How to keep those same players to play Rifts when they will noticed so many RPG with much more modern game system ?

[glitterboy2098]

I think step one is to stop complaining about the system.

Any why is that ? How to get more people to play Rifts if the GM must fight versus the system all the time ?
How to keep those same players to play Rifts when they will noticed so many RPG with much more modern game system ?

if you had continued reading, you would find i included an explanation, it just wound up on page 2.

my point is that the first thing prospective players see is the complaints. complaints abut the rules. complaints about the setting. complaints about the system. complaints about how often the books come out. complaints about which books get put out. complaints that certain books have never been put out. complaints that the company says too much about what it is doing. complaints that it says too little about what it is doing. complaints about the format of the books. complaints complaints complaints...

it really puts people off. because they don't have the experience to determine if those complaints are the result of internet trolls and grognards grumbling over trivialities, or actual legitimate grievances. they can't tell if the complaints are coming from actual fans or proponents of other systems working towards their own biases.

i play battletech. it's rules are a mess in many places. no one complains. i play 40K. the bulk of the fandom actively hates games workshop. no one really complains.

i play palladium. i hear little but complaints.

so we need to stop complaining so much. it is keeping people from playing.

the problem isn't the system. its the fact that the palladium fandom just won't stop complaining about the system.
if someone finds an odd rule interaction, in most game fandoms the response is "yeah, the rules can be a bit weird at times. you can choose to just ignore it or if if you prefer, here are some ideas"

in palladium it's "yeah, palladium's rules are [explitive], they should rewrite the game to be more like [insert popular game here], but kevin is a [derogatory comment] and won't listen to the fans"
every single ******* time.

the key thing to getting more people to play? making the enviroment friendly. making sure the people trying to bring in new players are creating a personal enviroment, both in their game and in the fandom, that is conductive to making new players feel at home and feel they can enjoy this game.

but if all you do is talk about how bad the system is because it doesn't fit your own vision of a 'perfect ruleset', or because its not like [insert other game here], no one is going to want to play the game. they aren't going to want to play with a bunch of people who can't have fun playing the game (because THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE), and aren't going to beleive you when you say the setting is fun.

hell, i'm writing a book for palladium, i love this game and the company, and there are days when all the complaining makes ME want to never come back to these forums.

i've run PB games. i've played a lot of PB game's. i write PB game material. and i've found that if your 'fighting' the system, your doing it wrong. the palladium system actually flows pretty easily and smoothly when your not trying to force it to conform to some other ruleset's expectations.
and i don't house rule. if something comes up, i will make a judgement call and use that call as precident if it occurs again, but the need has happened very rarely. guess what? the system still works.

so my three step plan for getting new players:
1) stop complaining and start playing.
2) learn how to use the system you have, instead of trying to make it something it isn't.
3) encourage others to do the same.

[Akashic Soldier]

The problem isn't the system. its the fact that the palladium fandom just won't stop complaining about the system.
if someone finds an odd rule interaction, in most game fandoms the response is "yeah, the rules can be a bit weird at times. you can choose to just ignore it or if if you prefer, here are some ideas"

in palladium it's "yeah, palladium's rules are [explitive], they should rewrite the game to be more like [insert popular game here], but kevin is a [derogatory comment] and won't listen to the fans"
every single ******* time.

the key thing to getting more people to play? making the enviroment friendly. making sure the people trying to bring in new players are creating a personal enviroment, both in their game and in the fandom, that is conductive to making new players feel at home and feel they can enjoy this game.

but if all you do is talk about how bad the system is because it doesn't fit your own vision of a 'perfect ruleset', or because its not like [insert other game here], no one is going to want to play the game. they aren't going to want to play with a bunch of people who can't have fun playing the game (because THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE), and aren't going to beleive you when you say the setting is fun.

hell, i'm writing a book for palladium, i love this game and the company, and there are days when all the complaining makes ME want to never come back to these forums.

i've run PB games. i've played a lot of PB game's. i write PB game material. and i've found that if your 'fighting' the system, your doing it wrong. the palladium system actually flows pretty easily and smoothly when your not trying to force it to conform to some other ruleset's expectations.
and i don't house rule. if something comes up, i will make a judgement call and use that call as precident if it occurs again, but the need has happened very rarely. guess what? the system still works.

so my three step plan for getting new players:
1) stop complaining and start playing.
2) learn how to use the system you have, instead of trying to make it something it isn't.
3) encourage others to do the same.

I remember making a post that said EXACTLY that about a year and a half ago. Prepare to be set upon by rabid hyenas. They don't want to hear it man. It makes sense to you. It makes sense to me, but its decades of behavior, they're just not going to stop. No matter how many updates. No matter how many clarifications. No matter WHAT they're always going to complain because they have too much emotionally invested in being upset.

You know HOW your three steps work though? They were exactly what I did, and I had to fight off new players with a stick. Ironically, because MOST of the online gamers in the Palladium community (not all of them, but MOST) are here because they're too anti-social/messed up to have real life groups. Big surprise, right?

Anyways, I run a successful game each week without any rules problems. I don't need to rewrite the game, or ignore entire world books to make everything make sense, and have the game be fun, and I typically get about 2 to 4 new people PMing me each week asking if they can join my game. However, thus far only ONE in the last six months has managed to pass my screening process.

The real key to having a successful game, is having a good Game Master who knows the rules and knows their game, prepares, and--perhaps most importantly of all--a group of GOOD players who are going to have fun and not stab one another in the back first chance they get.

As for Dunia having a hard time finding new players, and I mean this with the utmost sincerity and NOT as an attack on her, given how vocal she is about the problems/flaws/unplayability of the game system, I find it hard to believe that she would make a good Palladium Game Master. Let me explain so this doesn't look like a baseless attack. A big part of the Game Master's responsibility to building the world for the players. So, if you have a Game Master (I've seen this in multiple systems), who has a problem with the Game System/Setting/Rules, than that is going to be conveyed in their storytelling, even if they do not mean it to be. So, if you have a G.M. that is ***** about obscure rules every three minutes, or stressed because her players are operating in a place where the rules are vague, than you're NOT going to have a positive experience. You're just not. So, given Dunia's posting history, I can see this behavior coming from her because she does it here. So it is very likely given how vocal she is, that she has expressed to the players that the setting is good, but the rules are clunkly and flawed. Furthermore, prior to leaving she claimed to have built her own role-playing game that was vastly superior to Rifts and a better Post-Apocalyptic setting. If that was the case, I cannot understand why she would be offering to introduce people to RIFTS rather than push her own product?

I don't know. The whole story just seems difficult for me to believe. It could well be true and I am just being overly suspect. I am a crazy conspiracy theorist after all. Not like anything I say has any credibility anyways.

[say652]

Make a major blockbuster movie with actors that fit the character concept, design a facebook game, collectible trading card games, comic books for adults, an animated series, characters that would wind up on hot cosplay, publish fan fiction,have a kids toy line,have a childrens version of the game, build a time travel machine and hire all the best writers and artists from the competition, take disneys offer, become stan lees butler and constantly slip him ideas for characters, purhase a copyright to more famous characters, develop characters that become household names, ask Steven Hawking to develop a mathematical equation for getting people to like rifts, stop allowing GM's who say you can't do that in my game because of game balance to be associated with your company, build a better system for using super powers in rifts, give away kittens with each purchase(hopefully not shrink wrapped to book), figure out how to clone an extinct species and bring it back to life, stop using the same pictures in all of your books, build and sell deadboy armor, build a functioning glitterboy, write a musical number, and last but not least......DO THE HARLEM SHAKE!

[Zamion138]

stop allowing GM's who say you can't do that in my game because of game balance to be associated with your company, build a better system for using super powers in rifts
You honestly think gms not allowing super powers or ultra high powered chars in low powered games is what is holding back gaining new fan/players/gm's??

One of the biggest non palladium fan gripes is balance. Wich most of us chuckle at for the very reason that we mearly dont allow it if its to powerfull or weak for the game we are running.
Also i dont see the lack of super hero powers as the reason people dont play rifts.
I hope you were joking with your above comment......
You would hate sitting at our rifts table irl if you were hoping for a superpowered char with the rest of us running nothing tougher than a juicer and being told no.

[say652]

stop allowing GM's who say you can't do that in my game because of game balance to be associated with your company, build a better system for using super powers in rifts
You honestly think gms not allowing super powers or ultra high powered chars in low powered games is what is holding back gaining new fan/players/gm's??

One of the biggest non palladium fan gripes is balance. Wich most of us chuckle at for the very reason that we mearly dont allow it if its to powerfull or weak for the game we are running.
Also i dont see the lack of super hero powers as the reason people dont play rifts.
I hope you were joking with your above comment......
You would hate sitting at our rifts table irl if you were hoping for a superpowered char with the rest of us running nothing tougher than a juicer and being told no.

that is why i stopped playing rifts and started playing heroes unlimited. the system fits me better than this particular palladium game. and i was serious about the harlem shake, a few youtube videos and poof going full dumbass becomes a global phenomone.

[Zamion138]

We could do the juicer shake......
Thats where a bunch of palladium fans shoot up and then detox hard on camera and get the shakes.....

[say652]

popularity and publicity go hand and hand. notice you see all kinds of pinkhaired guys in new england, also see alot of guys wearing nailpolosh too. cool is nothing more than "monkey see monkey do." hire any celebrity to play a few game and poof his fans will also play to be like their idol. for the best results find any rapper slip them a few dollars to put the game in a song, a few more dollars to say rpg's kept him out of jail and off the streets and the company couldn't print books fast enough. remember the legendary K.I.S.S. DnD character myth? stuff like that is what put them on the map. bad system lots of publicity= MONEY!!!!!

[glitterboy2098]

Isn't working. I live in pallys back yard they have almost no presence can you tell me why all the gamers in the area refuse to play the system? I can tell you this much it isn't these forums.
If you think complaining drives away people you need to look at other gaming company forums they are way worst then palladium, in fact they are tame on the complaints then WoTC official forums. As I said in my last post this is nothing but circular arguments.

funny, did i say it was a forum specific issue? i said the forums make me sick and want to quit at times, but the problem is the attitude that creates what we see on the forums. the attitude that palladium is 'broken' and that it needs 'fixed'...

people with that kind of attitude have a hard time creating an enviroment conductive to attracting new players. if someone asks "is rifts a fun game to play", they don't want to be told "the settings are fun, but the rules suck' if they sit down to play a game, they don't want to have to memorize pages after pages of house rules made because the GM is trying to make the rules into a totally different game. that sort of thing puts people off.
and then they tell their friend "rifts sucks, its rules are messed up and its fan nuts". who then tell their friends, who tell their friends, etc.

it's the golden rule. treat others the way you want to be treated. if your attitude towards the game is that the system is broken, the company is bad, etc... that is what prospective players are going to assume too. whether they play or not. and they are going to spread that around.

so if we want to attract people to play the game, we need to stop posioning the waters with negative attitudes and actions regarding the system, the company, and the games.

[jaymz]

Isn't working. I live in pallys back yard they have almost no presence can you tell me why all the gamers in the area refuse to play the system? I can tell you this much it isn't these forums.
If you think complaining drives away people you need to look at other gaming company forums they are way worst then palladium, in fact they are tame on the complaints then WoTC official forums. As I said in my last post this is nothing but circular arguments.

I am with Ninja on this. Where I live not one person comes to these forums. However none of them play Palladium products beyond what I may run at a con. Why? Largely because of what they hear from other gamers. Now considering I am the only guy here to run a Palladium game of ANY kind at my local con in 20 frackin' years of the cons existence that tells me plenty. And none of it has to do with these forums. Now do they frequent RPGnet? RPGnow? or any other forums? possibly, but I gaurantee Palladium gets worse criticism on some of those that it does here hands down.


EDIT - and the games I DO run I try by darndest to run by the RAW as best I can. I have had repeat players. Their response when I ask if they got into any games in the intervening year? To paraphrase: "Well I looked more at it and while I had fun and am playing here because last year was fun, I don't have anyone to play with and honestly the rules are kind of meh"

[Dunia]

my point is that the first thing prospective players see is the complaints. complaints abut the rules. complaints about the setting. complaints about the system. complaints about how often the books come out. complaints about which books get put out. complaints that certain books have never been put out. complaints that the company says too much about what it is doing. complaints that it says too little about what it is doing. complaints about the format of the books. complaints complaints complaints...

it really puts people off. because they don't have the experience to determine if those complaints are the result of internet trolls and grognards grumbling over trivialities, or actual legitimate grievances. they can't tell if the complaints are coming from actual fans or proponents of other systems working towards their own biases.


--== SNIP==--

To my three step plan for getting new players:
1) stop complaining and start playing.
2) learn how to use the system you have, instead of trying to make it something it isn't.
3) encourage others to do the same.

Actually, the first the players read before reading all the discussions, complaints, praises are the following:

Help Save Palladium Books!
We're in trouble, and you can help! View details and discuss within.
Keep in mind that the Forums of the Megaverse® Rules apply here as well.
Topics: 426 Posts: 9378

The "We are in Trouble, and you can help" is actually worse than all the discussions, as others have said, in forums for other games, there are as much and in some cases even more complaints about the world, system etc. But to have a statement that the company is in trouble and calls for help from the forum users it a huge turn-off i take it. And especially with all the talk about he crisis that was, both from Kevin (he still brought it up in 2012) and people on the forums. That's another big turn off.

When I bought Rifts in 2008-2009 - had I known what people said about this game - I would never had bought it. Not because of the complaints, from whats appears to be a big group of players do not like the mechanics of the systems etc. I do not want to start buying an RPG that is in financial trouble if I want to start collect the books. When I start buying RPGs I usually buy the whole game line. Rifts is the only system that I have felt that I would never buy any other books than those i really really need.

I think that few people wants to start buying from a company that looks dying.

Aside from that, I think you are dead on. with your three points - though i have some thoughts about them:

1 - Stop complaining and start playing - I am though I would not like to sit down and just read praise about a game, i want to have both sides of the coin. So I think that it is our right as customers to complain about PB's products if we do not like them, but you are right that we need to contain ourselves at times.
2 - Learn how to use the game: Sure - but when rules are missing or does not compute against what is written elsewhere in the book, then there is a trouble if I am to play as the game was intended.
3 - Sure, but I will not praise a game to people if I know that I see flaws in them. However, I d not say when people ask that it is a bad game, I answer their questions as honestly as i can and if they ask me about the system I say that "There are those who play as it is written and intended, but I have been forced to houserule to a degree that it no longer looks as the book says that it should. But I and my players like my system better.

[Damian Magecraft]

It is possible to talk Rifts and other Palladium Products up with out mentioning the system...
when questions about the system do come up the best answer is "You will have to judge it for your self as my opinion may differ from yours"
see? simple. and no lie required.

[say652]

i can't say enough good things about the combat system. the only turn off i had was people couldn't grasp the concept of megadamage(bad idea maybe?) that and every rifts GM is a firm hater of super powers. being willing to compromise i switched to Heroes Unlimited and poof problem solved.

[jaymz]

i can't say enough good things about the combat system. the only turn off i had was people couldn't grasp the concept of megadamage(bad idea maybe?) that and every rifts GM is a firm hater of super powers. being willing to compromise i switched to Heroes Unlimited and poof problem solved.

I'd have to say that is only the Rifts GMs you've run into. Personally, the GMs I have had never had an issue of allowing anything from other games into their Rifts games, supers included.

[Dunia]

Well, Damian, I understand where you wish to go, but in the LGC that I am part of, who also care, plan and execute one of the two largest Conventions in Sweden, when people there ask about what you play, most often questions like these pop up:

* How is the world described, is it GM friendly (as in are there many openings to do stuff)?
* Is the game supported by the company (as in many books and computer programs/apps)?
* How expensive is it to get the most needed books?
* Is it fun?
* How is the system, is it easy to learn, do you need to do much house rulings?
* Is the company still in business so there will be more books?
* How easy is i to start making a character?
* Is it friendly for people that is not native english speakers?
* How old do you think a person should be to play?
* How is the combat system, is it fast, realistic or longwinded?
* How is the magic system,if any. Is it possible to make new spells easy?
* How many races can you play in the core book? How many classes?
* What is the most special about the game
and the list goes on.

I do not sugarcoat it, I believe that when people ask what I think I tell them my opinions. Its just like when people ask me what I think about the weapon restriction's bill that Obama wanted to pass in Congress, I do not say "Well Obama and the Congress are of different opinions, you have to read the news to get your own thoughts about it, as my opinion might differ. I tell them what I know of the bill and what I think of it.

[Damian Magecraft]

i can't say enough good things about the combat system. the only turn off i had was people couldn't grasp the concept of megadamage(bad idea maybe?) that and every rifts GM is a firm hater of super powers. being willing to compromise i switched to Heroes Unlimited and poof problem solved.

Not every GM is a hater of Super Powers...
Its the trying to break the game through the selection of super powers that we object to.
So dont blame the GMs for "outlawing" the use of powers.
Blame the irresponsible players that have created the need for a blanket ban on super powers.

[Damian Magecraft]

Well, Damian, I understand where you wish to go, but in the LGC that I am part of, who also care, plan and execute one of the two largest Conventions in Sweden, when people there ask about what you play, most often questions like these pop up:

I get those same questions at cons. And here is How I answer them.

* How is the world described, is it GM friendly (as in are there many openings to do stuff)? The worlds are amazing there is plenty there for the GM to work with (usually followed by me gushing on about my favorite setting Fantasy.
* Is the game supported by the company (as in many books and computer programs/apphttp://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&sid=e35d0633d4cf3c90501c7372cf2ad7cc&t=138219&p=2675639#s)? They have over 200 books in their library and work tirelessly to provide us more.
* How expensive is it to get the most needed books? To run any one setting you really only need one book, the core book of that setting; and they are reasonably priced.
* Is it fun? HELL YES!
* How is the system, is it easy to learn, do you need to do much house rulings? System learning curves are a subjective matter... I learned the system fairly quickly, I have had players take weeks to months to learn it (but then they also had trouble learning D20 and dice pool systems) and I have had players pick up the basics during the course of a 4 hour demo. You will have to judge that for yourself.
* Is the company still in business so there will be more books? Yes.
* How easy is i to start making a character? no longer than your first time rolling up a 3.5 character.
* Is it friendly for people that is not native english speakers? I have no experiences that will allow me to answer that question
* How old do you think a person should be to play? Age of a gamer is subjective based upon many factors I have had players as young as 8 and as old as 90 learn to play the system.
* How is the combat system, is it fast, realistic or longwinded? It uses a round robin turn based system that can be as fast; slow, simple, or complex as you make it just like any other system out there.
* How is the magic system,if any. Is it possible to make new spells easy? Point based rote casting system fairly quick to learn. Yes it is possible to make new spells. Easily? Again that is a subjective question; if you mean is there a set formula for it? No, but there are plenty of spells to use as bench marks for creating new ones.
* How many races can you play in the core book? How many classes? Depends on the setting. PF has 12 base races, HU allows for you create an infinite number of aliens, Rifts is human-centric but does offer up 5 variants of dragon and multiple breeds of Dog boys. Classes more than enough in any genre to keep you entertained for years.
* What is the most special about the game Depends on which one you are asking about but most of them have a rich and varied background (there are two genres that are more sand boxy than the rest).
and the list goes on.

I do not sugarcoat it, I believe that when people ask what I think I tell them my opinions.

I dont sugar coat either but I certainly dont place my bias on the subjective questions.

[say652]

a little off topic but the most effective way i found to handle super powers was have the character focus on their natural abilities. this means ask questions like why are you carrying a laser rifle when you can shoot lightning? why are your armed with a vibro sword when your punches inflict megadamage? other than body armor(even then i question why would an invulnerable hero wear body armor?) i limit the characters equipment forcing them to rely on their natural abilities.

[Icefalcon]

Well, Damian, I understand where you wish to go, but in the LGC that I am part of, who also care, plan and execute one of the two largest Conventions in Sweden, when people there ask about what you play, most often questions like these pop up:

I get those same questions at cons. And here is How I answer them.

* How is the world described, is it GM friendly (as in are there many openings to do stuff)? The worlds are amazing there is plenty there for the GM to work with (usually followed by me gushing on about my favorite setting Fantasy.
* Is the game supported by the company (as in many books and computer programs/apphttp://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&sid=e35d0633d4cf3c90501c7372cf2ad7cc&t=138219&p=2675639#s)? They have over 200 books in their library and work tirelessly to provide us more.
* How expensive is it to get the most needed books? To run any one setting you really only need one book, the core book of that setting; and they are reasonably priced.
* Is it fun? HELL YES!
* How is the system, is it easy to learn, do you need to do much house rulings? System learning curves are a subjective matter... I learned the system fairly quickly, I have had players take weeks to months to learn it (but then they also had trouble learning D20 and dice pool systems) and I have had players pick up the basics during the course of a 4 hour demo. You will have to judge that for yourself.
* Is the company still in business so there will be more books? Yes.
* How easy is i to start making a character? no longer than your first time rolling up a 3.5 character.
* Is it friendly for people that is not native english speakers? I have no experiences that will allow me to answer that question
* How old do you think a person should be to play? Age of a gamer is subjective based upon many factors I have had players as young as 8 and as old as 90 learn to play the system.
* How is the combat system, is it fast, realistic or longwinded? It uses a round robin turn based system that can be as fast; slow, simple, or complex as you make it just like any other system out there.
* How is the magic system,if any. Is it possible to make new spells easy? Point based rote casting system fairly quick to learn. Yes it is possible to make new spells. Easily? Again that is a subjective question; if you mean is there a set formula for it? No, but there are plenty of spells to use as bench marks for creating new ones.
* How many races can you play in the core book? How many classes? Depends on the setting. PF has 12 base races, HU allows for you create an infinite number of aliens, Rifts is human-centric but does offer up 5 variants of dragon and multiple breeds of Dog boys. Classes more than enough in any genre to keep you entertained for years.
* What is the most special about the game Depends on which one you are asking about but most of them have a rich and varied background (there are two genres that are more sand boxy than the rest).
and the list goes on.

I do not sugarcoat it, I believe that when people ask what I think I tell them my opinions.

I dont sugar coat either but I certainly dont place my bias on the subjective questions.

I don't allow my bias to creep into introducing new players to the system either. However, after introducing it recently to my current group (8 players) all of them like the worlds but hate the rules system. They decided all on their own that the rules need work with no prompting from me. And before people ask, I know how to run with very little hesitation on the rules. The only hesitation I have is because it has been so long since I have run, I have forgotten a few rules but remember pretty quickly.

Sure, these players are willing to play the game with me as GM but only two of those eight are willing to buy any of the books. That is a 25% ratio. Not the best for encouraging new business. And in my experience, that 25% ratio is the norm not the exception.

[Nightmask]

a little off topic but the most effective way i found to handle super powers was have the character focus on their natural abilities. this means ask questions like why are you carrying a laser rifle when you can shoot lightning? why are your armed with a vibro sword when your punches inflict megadamage? other than body armor(even then i question why would an invulnerable hero wear body armor?) i limit the characters equipment forcing them to rely on their natural abilities.

A GM shouldn't be forcing a PC to have to do anything.

The character may be using the Laser Rifle because it has better range than his Lightning, a more powerful attack is worthless if it can't hit the target but the less powerful one can.

The character may favor melee weapons like swords and favors using the Vibro-blade rather than using his punches (and some things will be able to take the damage from the punch but not the vibro-blade).

Body armor provides more than just MDC, it also provides environmental features and one could just prefer to NOT look like a good target because 'well that dude running around in his shorts must be tough target him!'.

Characters are a great deal more than just how much damage they can take and inflict, they do things that if you're looking at them from just a stat perspective make no sense but they do make sense from an actual character standpoint as a 3-dimensional creation.

[Damian Magecraft]

Well, Damian, I understand where you wish to go, but in the LGC that I am part of, who also care, plan and execute one of the two largest Conventions in Sweden, when people there ask about what you play, most often questions like these pop up:

I get those same questions at cons. And here is How I answer them.

* How is the world described, is it GM friendly (as in are there many openings to do stuff)? The worlds are amazing there is plenty there for the GM to work with (usually followed by me gushing on about my favorite setting Fantasy.
* Is the game supported by the company (as in many books and computer programs/apphttp://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&sid=e35d0633d4cf3c90501c7372cf2ad7cc&t=138219&p=2675639#s)? They have over 200 books in their library and work tirelessly to provide us more.
* How expensive is it to get the most needed books? To run any one setting you really only need one book, the core book of that setting; and they are reasonably priced.
* Is it fun? HELL YES!
* How is the system, is it easy to learn, do you need to do much house rulings? System learning curves are a subjective matter... I learned the system fairly quickly, I have had players take weeks to months to learn it (but then they also had trouble learning D20 and dice pool systems) and I have had players pick up the basics during the course of a 4 hour demo. You will have to judge that for yourself.
* Is the company still in business so there will be more books? Yes.
* How easy is i to start making a character? no longer than your first time rolling up a 3.5 character.
* Is it friendly for people that is not native english speakers? I have no experiences that will allow me to answer that question
* How old do you think a person should be to play? Age of a gamer is subjective based upon many factors I have had players as young as 8 and as old as 90 learn to play the system.
* How is the combat system, is it fast, realistic or longwinded? It uses a round robin turn based system that can be as fast; slow, simple, or complex as you make it just like any other system out there.
* How is the magic system,if any. Is it possible to make new spells easy? Point based rote casting system fairly quick to learn. Yes it is possible to make new spells. Easily? Again that is a subjective question; if you mean is there a set formula for it? No, but there are plenty of spells to use as bench marks for creating new ones.
* How many races can you play in the core book? How many classes? Depends on the setting. PF has 12 base races, HU allows for you create an infinite number of aliens, Rifts is human-centric but does offer up 5 variants of dragon and multiple breeds of Dog boys. Classes more than enough in any genre to keep you entertained for years.
* What is the most special about the game Depends on which one you are asking about but most of them have a rich and varied background (there are two genres that are more sand boxy than the rest).
and the list goes on.

I do not sugarcoat it, I believe that when people ask what I think I tell them my opinions.

I dont sugar coat either but I certainly dont place my bias on the subjective questions.

I don't allow my bias to creep into introducing new players to the system either. However, after introducing it recently to my current group (8 players) all of them like the worlds but hate the rules system. They decided all on their own that the rules need work with no prompting from me. And before people ask, I know how to run with very little hesitation on the rules. The only hesitation I have is because it has been so long since I have run, I have forgotten a few rules but remember pretty quickly.

Sure, these players are willing to play the game with me as GM but only two of those eight are willing to buy any of the books. That is a 25% ratio. Not the best for encouraging new business. And in my experience, that 25% ratio is the norm not the exception.

a 25% gain is above the norm for new comers to the hobby regardless of system.
a 25% gain is better than most systems see from experienced players switching systems.
not the best metric to use to shore up your points.

[say652]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

[Icefalcon]

a 25% gain is above the norm for new comers to the hobby regardless of system.
a 25% gain is better than most systems see from experienced players switching systems.
not the best metric to use to shore up your points.

Not really. In my experience, the norm is close to 40-50% of people that try a system will buy the books for that system. For people switching systems, that number is closer to 70%. In almost every group I have ever been a part of, except my current one, all of the group will at least buy a core book. After that, I see at least half buy the books pertinent to their characters. Beyond that, maybe 10% will buy most if not all of the books because they are completionists. But even among completionists, I see very few of them buy more than three or four Palladium books. They just do not like the system enough to buy more than just the core book and maybe one or two that they will use for their characters.

[Damian Magecraft]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

[say652]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

and as a gm i have never limited anybody elses creativity by allowing them to use any book legal class in a game. varying power levels in a party make for good roleplaying. especially in a game that sells itself on the FALSE premise of allowing you to be anything. the system is sound, the source books great, the players want to have fun, the gm's.....pfffffft. control freaks who destroy the whole basis of the game. at least in heroes unlimited you can actually play whatever you want to. rifts was eh.......and just broke down to trying to justify why to the gm.