most powerful human OCC

[Killer Cyborg]

Many psychics are in the employee of the CS. It would be as simple as, "Private, can you sense if that thing is a mutant?"

See Aura can't distinguish a mutation from an illness, though, so you could just as easily be detecting hemophilia.

If only the CS had doctors on their payroll, which could figure that kind of thing out.
Although, illness itself is a rarity in the CS.

Not to mention that new mutations occur all the time and may not necessarily be associated with any powers.

The CS doesn't like mutants at all, whether or not they have powers.

Ideally if the CS is building profiles on people, it might estabilsh info like this when constructing one. In terms of casual discrimination from the populace (keeping in mind that even minor psionics don't need chips in them) it probably wouldn't happen though. If a guy with a mutation was running for public office, sure, rumors would slip out, but unless there's a reason to be interacting with CS military or other psychics who might have info on the person, gasual gossip about mutations wouldn't cause much everyday problems for the usual citizen.

That would depend on the commonness of lynch mobs and such.

If one single thing can't disqualify a class on its own then it shouldn't be able to do it at all, unless we can define some specific combination of traits which would (for other classes too, if they had that combination) also disqualify them.

Seems like a bizarre and random thing to insist on.

each component on its own is fine, no rational I can see for the combination counteracting humanity.

Why not?

There needs to be a basis of explanation for why the synergy of 2 traits would create a new status, haven't seen it. From my perspective, this combo qualification is bizarre/random.

Say you have a 30' garden hose.
Now say you trim 10' off of one end. Do you still have a garden hose?
Now say you trim 10' off of the other end. Do you still have a garden hose?
Now say you trim 9'11.9" off of what's left, and throw that away. Do you still have a garden hose?

[RiftJunkie]

Natural/Genius benefits come from specific psychic enhancement. It's not an actual physical transformation into another kind of being, complete with new attributes, skills, and powers.

Isn't it? They don't just get +1 to all attributes, that's actually incorporated into their roll-up and affects whether or not they get a bonus die. There's no clear basis on where to draw the line on what a 'physical transformation' is. These guys can get a mega SDC boost and even supernatural strength. Cosmo-Knights become MDC, but you don't want to draw the line there so I'm not sure where we draw it. Both the PCC and the OCC alter the base dice, this much is clear.

if you don't think that physically transforming into a new kind of being makes you no longer human, that's cool- we'll just go with Gods as the most powerful human class.

Where are you getting this 'new kind of being' thing? Also yeah, becoming a god doesn't mean you're necessarily no longer human. Dragon-gods are still dragons, after all. But god is not listed as an OCC, and the thread title says OCC, not class

still human, because there's enough of their original human parts that they're humans with cybernetics, not cybernetics with some human parts.

Partial conversion borgs may have more than 50% of their bodies replaced though. The core of a full conversion borg is still human. Even if it's just a brain, that's still 'human with cybernetics'. The brain can't be demeaned to just some 'human part' when it is the driving force.

Loki's Wager.

Me: *woosh*

Don't remember much about Maxi-Men, so I can't say.

Get magical ink injections, makes them MDC creatures.

Not normal psychics, no. But IIRC Psi-Stalkers are "mutant humans," and the CS treats them accordingly, although they do have special status due to their utility.

I think to first discriminate against Psi-Ghosts they'd have to establish that the Intangibility wasn't a psionic power. I guess they would have the means of doing that by asking them to do it and seeing if a Psi-Stalker detects psionics in use.

wouldn't count Cosmo Knights as human.

We just need a clear basis for why this should be done, and see if there can be consensus about it. If it's not MDC (which other OCCs can give) and it's not rerolling attributes (which a PCC can give) then is it flavor text?

For what it's worth, I believe most of it is the flavor text. Vampires are stated to be "reborn" into a vampire with most skills/memories lost in the transformation. Cosmo-Knights are kinda similarly "reborn" through the Cosmic Forge. Demi-Gods are only 1/2 human when you read the fluff and then they are also SN. Sea Titans start life as a "human" but with higher stats. When they hit adulthood, they change into a SN creature. Sure, they look, sound, feel, act like humans but are in fact (yup, I realize we are arguing about make believe) so much more than human. In my earlier post, I listed a Spirit Warrior as human. Now I should change that. The fluff states that they trade/exchange part of their essence with the great spirits. I believe this would make them something other than human.
I think we should read the flavor text to decide how any character should proceed. When you read RCC think Race and what would be in their DNA. Neo-Human is out, because they may seem to be human, the fluff says they are closer to the mutant animals. Altess should then be in. They are human, just tweaked for the better and they didn't introduce any foreign DNA. Juicers, Crazies - still human. Partial Borg - I could say they are still human. Full conversion - even the flavor text mentions that they give up much of their humanity, so I would say no.

In the end, it depends on what you consider "human" and the class you want to play.

[Tor]

Maybe we should just go by CS policies on what is human. Of course that'd probably keep Borgs in and disqualify mages...

The CS doesn't like mutants at all, whether or not they have powers.

There's probably some limit though, considering that probably every generation has minor negligible mutations that don't amount to anything. The focus would be on obvious deforming mutations or dangerous empowering ones, I would think, and Arzno guy doesn't fit either bro, he's just slightly more competent. The traits from Lone Star which human mutants get on a slightly higher basis are ones that normal humans can also roll.

Say you have a 30' garden hose. Now say you trim 10' off of one end. Do you still have a garden hose? Now say you trim 10' off of the other end. Do you still have a garden hose?

I think I would have 3 hoses 10ft each.

Now say you trim 9'11.9" off of what's left, and throw that away. Do you still have a garden hose?

YUP, though a less useful one. Not understanding how this justifies the Cosmo-Knight analogy.

[torjones]

I have been looking through the books I own, and I am trying to determine the most powerful human character AT FIRST LEVEL that can be put together. the best I can find so far would be using the following:
any body have a better idea? Or things that can be added in?

I only just found this thread when someone else replied to it, so I apologize for if I'm further zombifying a dead thread...

I think that there are many ways that one can answer this question, as the many and varied responses has indicated.

I'll chose to answer the following way (YGMMV):
[note: I am assuming level 1, and ignoring any options, like skill choices, for the most part. We all know that character effectiveness depends greatly upon skill choice and GM's mood of the hour, so we'll ignore things we have little control over for now.]

From RUE:
Man At Arms: For combat capability, I'd say that the full conversion cyborg is a very tough cookie. Depending on the situation, most things are going to die fairly quickly to one of these.
Adventurers & Scholars: I've had really good luck with Operators. They start with two commercial vehicles, can fix/repair nearly anything, and if you chose to do so, and take the Psi-Operator, you've got Telemechanics, so you can pilot anything as well. If you spend your skill choices on M.D. Bionics and a few combat capability options, you have a VERY effective character in a wide range of situations. (First Vehicle is an XM-250 from Triax, second vehicle is a Naruni Nuclear Powered CG Pack)
Practitioner of Magic: I've thought about this one, and I can't really make up my mind here. A Walker is a really good choice, because he can learn any spell, and cast it if he has the PPE. Then again, Shifters can call in a demon to fight for them, and that's a pretty powerful ability all on its own, potentially right up there with the Borg for combat capability, if you've got a bit of time for preparations, or you just get lucky. Then yet again, Techno-Wizards can be pretty good at first level as well.
Psychic: Hard to beat a Melter. I'm not aware of much, even in later books, that can out-psionic a Mind Melter. About the only things that come to mind are all from later books, mainly the Neo-Human and the Psi-Ghost.
RCC: As only one RCC is listed, I think we can skip that for now.
Coalition Soldiers: Even though there are only 4 options listed, the SAMAS pilot is one of the better options, even if you look in CWC and the Navy books. A SAMAS pilot that isn't stupid can do a lot of damage to ground targets and most hover vehicles. The standard rail gun is good in most situations, and great in others. The only down side is the fact that it uses ammunition that can run out, and then the standard SAMAS pilot is screwed, as he usually doesn't have any backup weapons, or if he does, the options are usually very limited.

Others:
South America 2: The Achilles Neo-Human. I'm a Mind Melter that can FLY, I'm a TK version of a burster, I get a healing touch that's effective against MDC creatures, so I can actually play party healer that's actually effective, I can non-violently remove NPCs from combat, and can become an MDC being.
CWC: The RPA Flyboy Ace are in my opinion what the SAMAS pilot from RUE should have been. If it's a Robot, Power Armor, or Vehicle, these guys are the ones you want operating it. Unless you can find a Turbo Jockey from Phase World that is... There isn't a Merc out there that can compare in the cockpit, though there are psychics who can do better.
D-bees of N.A.: For pure Gun-Bunny, it's hard to beat the Malvoren. I don't know if it was Johnstone's intention to make them this munchkin-y but when they can take on cosmo-knights and Promethean Phase Adepts and have a reasonable expectation of winning?
Lone Star, New West, Spirit West: Every time I flip through Lone Star, I always hear John Lithgow ranting about the humans in Buckaroo Banzai. These three books are some of my favorites, and when combined with the three mercenary books, it's where a lot of my gamers wind up spending a goodly chunk of their time. Cyberslinger and Psi-Slinger are both really strong choices, but I'm not sure there isn't an OCC or RCC that isn't a LOT of fun to play (Though, i'm not really into the indian thing from spirit west, I've had players who loved the hell out of them and used them to really good effect).
Federation of Magic: Why is it that everyone ants to play a Lord Magus or a Mystic Knight? Oh, right. Some of the most powerful OCCs in the game. Not that they can't be fun, but it takes the right game for them to not be overpowering.
Phase World 1 & 2: Cosmo-Knights, Promethean, Dominators, Machine People, Repo-Bots, Pleasurers. Ok, so most of these are RCCs, not OCCs, but there is so much good stuff here, it's almost hard to go wrong with your choices... Yeah, this is also where the Turbo Jockey comes from.
D-Books 4-6: Not much with the OCCs here, but it does introduce one of my favorite Very Near Human RCCs, the Altess. Billed as 'Evolved Humans', their greatest super power is "Money." They get lots of it. That and a really good stat block.

[Shark_Force]

@torjones: most of your answers fit the criteria, but the question was about the most powerful (at level one) human OCC

so, some of your answers (like the neo-human and the malvoren) don't quite fit. the rest are, of course, a matter of opinion, so it's really a question of what you think is more powerful anyways... although one minor thing to clear up, both the shifter and the techno-wizard can learn almost any spell the ley line walker can (there's a few exceptions, but you'd be looking at rather rare possibilities... for example, techno-wizards can't learn temporal spells barring GM intervention, but in theory a high level ley line walker or shifter can... but practically speaking, that's not something you'd expect, and it isn't an option at first level anyways).

in any event, the shifter and techno-wizard tend to *prefer* certain types of spells, but the shifter's preference for mind control and summoning spells doesn't prevent them from learning a spell to carry stuff while freeing up their hands or anything like that, nor does the techno-wizard's preference for energy-related spells prevent them from learning most other spells that a ley line walker could learn.

[torjones]

@torjones: most of your answers fit the criteria, but the question was about the most powerful (at level one) human OCC

so, some of your answers (like the neo-human and the malvoren) don't quite fit. the rest are, of course, a matter of opinion, so it's really a question of what you think is more powerful anyways... although one minor thing to clear up, both the shifter and the techno-wizard can learn almost any spell the ley line walker can (there's a few exceptions, but you'd be looking at rather rare possibilities... for example, techno-wizards can't learn temporal spells barring GM intervention, but in theory a high level ley line walker or shifter can... but practically speaking, that's not something you'd expect, and it isn't an option at first level anyways).

in any event, the shifter and techno-wizard tend to *prefer* certain types of spells, but the shifter's preference for mind control and summoning spells doesn't prevent them from learning a spell to carry stuff while freeing up their hands or anything like that, nor does the techno-wizard's preference for energy-related spells prevent them from learning most other spells that a ley line walker could learn.

Never said the TW and Shifter couldn't also learn any spell, kinda why I think they are just as good as the Walker, or nearly so anyway. As you say, they each have preferences in spell selections, but can actually learn anything really. Though, I'd be more willing to let a Walker learn temporal magic, than I would a shifter or a TW. Shifters and TWs already have other things that they can do that the other's can't, so i feel the Walker should have some benefit as well. I usually provide penalties to the Walker when casting temporal magic and other specialty magics, range penalty, extra PPE to cast, shorter durations, that sort of thing, kinda like the reverse of what happens when the two can cast the same spell, only one does it better than the other.

As for the Neo-Human not fitting, they're no less human than a Psi-Stalker, or a Burster or a Melter. They are genetically engineered humans originally, similar to the Altess. Sea Titans are also humans, mutated by the Rifts sure, but still humans. You may feel differently, but the books say "This is a human that's been genetically modified" or "This is a human mutant" or other similar statements. I will agree that the Melvoran isn't human in any way, but neither are the Prometheans, Dominators, Pleasurers, or Machine People. Have fun.

[Shark_Force]

you said in your post: "A Walker is a really good choice, because he can learn any spell, and cast it if he has the PPE."

this implies it is something unique to the ley line walker. i'm merely indicating that the ley line walker is no more able to do so than various other OCCs.

as to getting something unique, the RUE ley line walker does; doubled draw rate from ley lines, an extra quasi-free regenerating force field on ley lines (only quasi-free because it drops them to regular draw rate from ley lines), and of course, the other abilities that they had in RMB that weren't handed out like candy (like the observation ball and ley line phasing. i don't include the transmission ability, because there's a spell to do that which most others can learn if they care to, which makes it pretty non-unique).

as to neo-humans, they're not humans. they are a new species created using human DNA, but they aren't even able to cross-breed with humans. bursters, melters, the altess, and even sea titans (and amazons) all are able to interbreed (as well as a few other human variant species, like zentraedi, amazons, ogres, and true atlanteans). something about neo-humans sets them further away than any of those other species. psi-stalkers are a bit unclear... so far as i am aware, there is no specific information on whether regular humans still give birth to psi-stalkers (or vice versa), or whether a psi-stalker can have a child with a regular human. there is, however, a variant psychic in nightbane that is remarkably similar in many ways to a psi-stalker, and theoretically a mere few hundred years is not a very long time to change so completely as to be unable to produce offspring, so i'd lean towards yes, but at best it's a maybe.

didn't want to go through your entire list and point out every non-human race you used, though... but yes, those others are also non-human.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now say you trim 9'11.9" off of what's left, and throw that away. Do you still have a garden hose?

YUP, though a less useful one. Not understanding how this justifies the Cosmo-Knight analogy.

By most people's standards, 1" of garden hose does not equal "a garden hose."
Neither does 1" of humanity.

[Killer Cyborg]

Maybe we should just go by CS policies on what is human. Of course that'd probably keep Borgs in and disqualify mages...

I'm pretty sure that the CS views human mages as human.

The CS doesn't like mutants at all, whether or not they have powers.

There's probably some limit though, considering that probably every generation has minor negligible mutations that don't amount to anything. The focus would be on obvious deforming mutations or dangerous empowering ones, I would think, and Arzno guy doesn't fit either bro, he's just slightly more competent. The traits from Lone Star which human mutants get on a slightly higher basis are ones that normal humans can also roll.

I don't recall what this part is about, or what you're trying to argue here. Skimming back didn't help, and I don't think it's worth a full re-read.

[Tor]

Human biologically, perhaps... sometimes. Surely not with Lord Magi or anything else that turns MDC.

But human in spirit? Surely not.

The traits I'm describing are in Lone Star. Anyone can roll them, even non-mutants. Mutants just get a bonus 1. The traits sounded like things from that table, though I could be wrong.