Gen Con Indy – we leave it up to our Kickstarter backers

[NMI]

Let's learn to all discuss the situation like adults WITHOUT the subtle/not-so-subtle insults, baiting or trolling. This goes for long-time Forum users and new users alike.

If you want to throw insults at each other/other forum users, then take it elsewhere. By other forum users, this includes Kevin, Wayne, Alex, any other Staff or Freelancers.

[Marcus]

And yes, that's me saying it, who has no interest in RTT aside from the whole mess being very entertaining to watch.
*munches popcorn*

I'm glad the $1,500 my gaming group contributed to this campaign helps provide you and others so much entertainment.

Not that I expect you to feel bad over something you had no hand in, but it's worth recognizing that a lot of people contributed a lot of money to a company with a somewhat controversial reputation in some circles (I'm trying to be polite and hope we can at least agree on that much). The average backer paid $270, and some paid thousands, for many reasons. The exclusive items, the discount, to be a part of the project, and yes, some wanted to be at the front of the line for what they saw as a hot new product (among simply countless other reasons). Just because you or others don't feel it's important doesn't make that desire invalid, especially when it was deemed appealing enough to be included in the promotional material and referenced repeatedly over the last year and a half.

Edit: and I fear this sets a bad precedent. I'll be surprised if Wave 2 takes them less than a year, which means likely doing this song and dance all over again for Gencon 2015.

I am aware it's mean-ish, but I'm german so I'm entitled to some Schadenfreude.
And tbh, not much happened that couldn't have been expected. Even without hindsight being 20/20.

[Giant2005]

Whenever one is feeling slighted or betrayed, there is a simple task you can perform to either gauge the extent of that betrayal or to gain much needed perspective.
Close your eyes and imagine yourself in a world where you have no knowledge of the event that concerns you to such a degree. Consider how that event would effect your life, absent of knowledge of it. If there is reasonable expectation of that event having a negative impact on your life absent of knowledge, then you are right to feel slighted. If the reasonable expectation is that the event would have no impact on your life, then your own mind is betraying you - it is causing you grief without reasonable cause; that betrayal is doubly more potent if that event has a reasonable expectation of having a positive effect on your life.
I don't know what is going on in your lives so it is impossible for an outsider like me to gauge how badly this event would impact your life absent of knowledge but without unusual circumstances, one would expect this event to ordinarily have a positive effect on your life if the intended purpose was for personal use. More advertising and more sales results in more people to play with, better support for the game and a higher potential for future expansions. Although if you had ordered extra copies of the game with the intention of flipping them on Ebay for a profit, the complaint is understandable and justified. If the Gencon buyers receive their purchases first and flip them on Ebay, that would lower the initial value of your formerly exclusive purchase.

[Maryann]

Its interesting, I've been out of the industry for over 12 years now (after being in the industry almost 20 prior) and it never ceases to amaze me how absolutely nothing changes. Of course Kevin and Palladium should take the game to Gen Con and promote it the way it should be, 200 copies of anything aren't going to make a huge difference and as long as the ks people's packages are being packed as shipped while the rest of the guys are gone to the convention. Now if Kev were saying all the distributors and Joe Shmoe and his brother are getting theirs at the same time as the ks people, then they would have something to bellyache about, but he's not. Kevin didn't have to ask "permission" to sell his product, he did it out of courtesy and for those of you that think he wouldn't refrain from taking the product to Gen Con if the vote comes back a NO then you just don't know Kevin.

[Kendachi]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

[Sureshot]

Again selling at Gencon is not the issue. Its that other people will be getting stuff for the backers. Which I can why it would make people unhappy. As for it being Kevin product. Do remember that it was not paid for by PB. Or very little. It was paid for by the backers of the kickstarter.The minis belong to the backers first Kevin second imo.

[Maryann]

Again selling at Gencon is not the issue. Its that other people will be getting stuff for the backers. Which I can why it would make people unhappy. As for it being Kevin product. Do remember that it was not paid for out of PB pocket. With other people money. So while he owns the product. He sure as hell did not invest his own money into it. Or very little.

.


However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

Gracious move.

[Maryann]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

Gracious move.

Very Cool move!

[Killer Cyborg]

Does anybody know of any single voting system that catagorises a "Don't Know" "Abstain" "Forgot" into an automatic "Yes" or "No' vote ?

Pretty much ANY voting system that requires an absolute majority or an absolute super majority.
The US Senate, for example, requires a 2/3 absolute majority in order to stop a filibuster.
It's in Robert's Rules of Order.

[Killer Cyborg]

I voted YES because if this "Robotech thing" fails, it will bring dire consequences to Palladium Books and the other game lines (it's just too big a thing not to have an impact, good or bad; I have been saying this from day one). They need to advertise in Gen Con, there's no way around it. But I am not blind, they should also think about all the angry backers and try some form of compensation, even a small one, just a token of gratitude...

I think that would be a good idea.

[Killer Cyborg]

I greatly dislike the fact that anything other than a no, is treated as a yes. Silence is not consent. It's silence.

You think that Palladium should shoot themselves in the foot financially if silence is the majority response...?

[Killer Cyborg]

There are so many tyrannical politics and sexual assault analogies, I don't even know where to begin, and it's impressive to see people defending it.

Silence equals consent gives us the answer before the 'poll' even began.

Only if the people who are upset by this are significantly outnumbered.
In which case, I don't see how the result is unfair.

And as noted previously, it seems the Yes's have a strong lead, which means the ballot boxes didn't even need to be stuffed in the first place.

It's not stuffing the ballot box.
It's requiring an absolute majority, in accordance with Robert's Rules of Order. Just like the US government, state governments, and local governments often require for passing various measures.
Look it up.
Or scroll back to where I've already explained this, earlier in this thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

This is not a tense situation. This is four people having a tanrum in public who need their soap box privileges removed. Palladium has repeatedly addressed the "concerns" your group has voiced and you have repeatedly proven that you are not interested in anything other than pitching a fit.

If your talking about RTT. I'm not even a backer. I just call a bad business like I see it a bad one. Offering non-backer access to minis before anyone else is a truly bad decision imo.

I agree- it IS a truly bad decision.
But that's all that Palladium has to work with at this point, bad decisions.
It's not like NOT selling their product at GenCon would be a GOOD, SMART decision. That notion shouldn't even be on the table.
The discussion should be whether that option would be more or less disastrous than offending a large number of their kickstarter backers.

People don't take kindly to people asking for money to get a product first.

Well, I'm not sure how big of a factor that really was.
From what I've heard (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the promises that the backers would get the product first didn't come out until later updates- some or all of the backers had already donated before that promise was even made.
The main reasons to be a backer were the standard reasons: a) to help the product get made at all, and to get little perks and bonuses depending on the size of the donation.
Both of those reasons seem to be fulfilled.

[Marcus]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Being ashamed of expecting beforehand?
That's weird.

[Killer Cyborg]

Whenever one is feeling slighted or betrayed, there is a simple task you can perform to either gauge the extent of that betrayal or to gain much needed perspective.
Close your eyes and imagine yourself in a world where you have no knowledge of the event that concerns you to such a degree. Consider how that event would effect your life, absent of knowledge of it. If there is reasonable expectation of that event having a negative impact on your life absent of knowledge, then you are right to feel slighted. If the reasonable expectation is that the event would have no impact on your life, then your own mind is betraying you - it is causing you grief without reasonable cause; that betrayal is doubly more potent if that event has a reasonable expectation of having a positive effect on your life.

Very well said.

[Killer Cyborg]

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Agreed.

But I think it's pretty clear that's not going to happen any time soon.

[Kendachi]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Being ashamed of expecting beforehand?
That's weird.

No, it's the people who rub that into peoples faces, like it makes it just peachy.

That you couldn't understand that?

That's weird.

[Marcus]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Being ashamed of expecting beforehand?
That's weird.

No, it's the people who rub that into peoples faces, like it makes it just peachy.

That you couldn't understand that?

That's weird.

Reads more like: You shouldn't be upset, as you could've known before but decided to ignore it.
Weird you don't get that.

[Forar]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

Gracious move.

And yet it couldn't be mentioned without taking a juvenile shot at the "no's".

Classy, and yet unclassy.

Schrodinger's Classiness.

they're just consumers.

Funny story, no, we're not. Not in a literal sense, at least. Not sure much of any proper consumer protections actually apply to backers.

Being a backer is *like* being a lot of things, but it isn't any of them. We're not consumers, nor have we pre-ordered, or are we investors. It's like a PBS pledge drive, but instead of just sending us a fancy tote bag so they can keep producing "Mozart: Awesome or Super Awesome", we toss them hundreds and thousands of dollars in the hopes that the delayed delivery of a giant pile of minis is less than half a year.

Ooops.

Robert's Rules of Order.

Dude... what is it with you and this guy Robert? Like, do you determine what you'll have for breakfast based on a properly polled super majority of your internal organs and desires?

[Kendachi]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Being ashamed of expecting beforehand?
That's weird.

No, it's the people who rub that into peoples faces, like it makes it just peachy.

That you couldn't understand that?

That's weird.

Reads more like: You shouldn't be upset, as you could've known before but decided to ignore it.
Weird you don't get that.

At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

[13eowulf]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

[Marcus]

One - how do we know for certain it's 200?

Second - every time I read "It's Palladium, you should have known there would be delays and questionable decisions!", I think those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Ashamed.

Being ashamed of expecting beforehand?
That's weird.

No, it's the people who rub that into peoples faces, like it makes it just peachy.

That you couldn't understand that?

That's weird.

Reads more like: You shouldn't be upset, as you could've known before but decided to ignore it.
Weird you don't get that.

At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

I doubt you understood anything.

[Forar]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

Hell, I'm surprised there's anyone left looking for a refund. To hear him tell it, he's been buying pledges left and right.

[Morgan Vening]

Its interesting, I've been out of the industry for over 12 years now (after being in the industry almost 20 prior) and it never ceases to amaze me how absolutely nothing changes. Of course Kevin and Palladium should take the game to Gen Con and promote it the way it should be, 200 copies of anything aren't going to make a huge difference and as long as the ks people's packages are being packed as shipped while the rest of the guys are gone to the convention.

Yup. 200 copies of anything aren't going to make a difference. Not to the backers, and also, not to the GenCon attendees. When all 50 copies per day are sold out in less than an hour (or potentially before the doors open, thanks to VIP/retailers) like last year's con exclusives, has that 200 made any difference? The only way this could make a measurable impact, over just being there and demoing the game, having displays, promoting it, handing out single miniatures or sprues to people who demo, possibly raffling off a prize or two a day, and taking pre-orders, is if the numbers are also in sufficient quantity that it WILL impact shipping to backers.

So, why do that, when this backlash was so predictable? Hey, you can think that those people are unreasonable all you want. But if people didn't EXPECT this furor to happen, they haven't been paying attention.

Now if Kev were saying all the distributors and Joe Shmoe and his brother are getting theirs at the same time as the ks people, then they would have something to bellyache about, but he's not.

Not yet, he isn't. Sorry, but one of the reasons (there are several) people are upset, is that a promise was made, and broken. Why should we believe that it's not going to happen again? Especially when Palladium are also stating (without "estimated") that it'll be in retail stores in September. Which promise will they break if there's a minor (several week) delay that doesn't allow for all 5300+ backers to have their product shipped out before the distribution/retail deadline hits? Which demographic will he disenfranchise then? Cause distributors/retailers are likely to be a better source for promoting the game than a few hundred GenCon attendees, and we've seen who he favoured then.

Kevin didn't have to ask "permission" to sell his product, he did it out of courtesy and for those of you that think he wouldn't refrain from taking the product to Gen Con if the vote comes back a NO then you just don't know Kevin.

Yes, but by stacking the deck before the first vote was cast, he doesn't have to risk that, does he? While yes's outnumber no's regardless, he apparently had little faith that'd happen. We'll see if 2671 different people vote, but I'm not counting on it. Which means the vote totals are straight up irrelevant. Sure, MAYBE if there'd been a majority that voted no, Kevin might have refrained. But to claim that the vote itself has any integrity, and is anything BUT a courtesy, is disingenuous at best.

However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers.

Actually, those backers that went in for Battlecries (a significant majority, but not all) get above and beyond what the GenCon attendees get. The 200 or so people in for First Contacts are getting EXACTLY what the GenCon attendees are getting (and in similar numbers, ironically). And given they had to pay 15 months in advance, I don't consider the minor cost saving "above and beyond". And even BattleCry backers don't get that much more, at least in terms of variety, given Wave 2 has no estimated release. Yes, that might be a technical set of arguments, that seems to be OK when Palladium do it.

And if we were truly consumers, we'd be able to get a refund for a delayed product. But no, we're not. As Forar pointed out, we're apparently in the amorphous nothingness that is Kickstarter, where we have no protections. So, yay for us.

The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made.

Wow. Just wow. I'm glad the money the backers put in had no impact on the product getting made. And while I don't doubt Kevin has put in a lot of work over the previous couple of years (and I don't want to diminish that), I think any person who held the license to the product would have done the same. And that's what frustrates me about all of these problems. This should have been a slam dunk success. And now, with all the shennanigans, "it is vital to successfully kickoff the launch" to break a promise to your backers after keeping them in the dark for so long.

Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning.

If you say so. I've not followed PB's history in any great detail. If I had, I'd have backed for much less (if at all). But even if what you're saying is accurate (and I'm not saying it's not), those investors/backers deserve more than broken promises and their position in line unilaterally skipped, yes?

[Kendachi]

I doubt you understood anything.

Since you've completely missed the point, I don't see the point in this anymore.

Foe'd. Have a nice day.

[Sureshot]

However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning.

When you do a kickstarter it`s always a risk yes. Yet too often those who jump on the kickstarter bandwagon forget it`s not a way to get free money with no strings attached. The money was given to PB to get the mins out in a reasonable amount of time. Nor to have others who did not back the project get to the product first. I can see why people are upset. They are not being totally unreasonable. When its PB paying out of pocket they can do wha they want and take as ong as they want. In this case it`s not their money though.

To put it another way I give a contractor 10k to fix a home in a year and a half. He not only is late by half a year. He decides to start repairing two other homes to make more money. Why would I be happy. The issue was never was about Kevin work ethic. It`s always been and it keeps getting ignored other people money was used. Right now I suggest PB tread very carefully. Looks like some of the backers are willing to take legal action. They probably won`t win but you never know.

I have a very dim view of kickstarters as a whole. The only valid reasons to me for a kickstarter being late or one that fails is a death in the family or personal illness. Stressed out because the shirts that were promised as a stretch goal too much. Too damn bad. Burnt out becuase the kickstarter is going to take more energy and time. Take whatever prescription medication is needed and get the book out. Don`t take my money than after pocketing it complain it`s too damn hard. Do that before taking my money and other people money.

[Sureshot]

someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

Unless I`m mistaken no refunds are being given. So while I think its a overreaction I can see why he would be willing to use legal action. Selling at Gencon or no always offer refunds when possible imo.

[Marcus]

I doubt you understood anything.

Since you've completely missed the point, I don't see the point in this anymore.

Foe'd. Have a nice day.

Yay!

[Maryann]

However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning.

When you do a kickstarter it`s always a risk yes. Yet too often those who jump on the kickstarter bandwagon forget it`s not a way to get free money with no strings attached. The money was given to PB to get the mins out in a reasonable amount of time. Nor to have others who did not back the project get to the product first. I can see why people are upset. They are not being totally unreasonable. When its PB paying out of pocket they can do wha they want and take as ong as they want. In this case it`s not their money though.

To put it another way I give a contractor 10k to fix a home in a year and a half. He not only is late by half a year. He decides to start repairing two other homes to make more money. Why would I be happy. The issue was never was about Kevin work ethic. It`s always been and it keeps getting ignored other people money was used. Right now I suggest PB tread very carefully. Looks like some of the backers are willing to take legal action. They probably won`t win but you never know.

Your comparing apples and turnips, hiring a contractor is nothing like this in any way shape or form. I have no idea how kickstarters work or whether legal action is possible, I would assume the delay of the product would have to be just because Palladium didn't feel like doing it or dragged their feet, which is not the case (even though its not my place to explain the behind the scenes happenings). I don't think Palladium has done anything wrong at all, the ks people will get their products just like promised.

[Maryann]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

And the fact that they have put their intention in black and white on the internet... hummmm

[Sureshot]

Your comparing apples and turnips, hiring a contractor is nothing like this in any way shape or form. I have no idea how kickstarters work or whether legal action is possible, I would assume the delay of the product would have to be just because Palladium didn't feel like doing it or dragged their feet, which is not the case (even though its not my place to explain the behind the scenes happenings). I don't think Palladium has done anything wrong at all, the ks people will get their products just like promised.

Your again missing the point. Other people money was used to fund the minis. They should get the product they funded first. Not some people going to Gencon on a first come first serve basis. It makes it look like investing to get them faster was a waste of time and money. If PB wanted to do that they should have invested their own money. I give you money to fix my home quicker than everyone else. I expect it to be done quicker than everyone else. Not to be treated like some regular customer. Espcially if a promise was made in writing to fix my house faster than everyone else. Acting like the backers are the same as everyone else is a mistake. They are not. Once you take someone else money imo your responsible. Meaning one does not get to change the terms of the deal to make it better for them.

[Maryann]

However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning.

When you do a kickstarter it`s always a risk yes. Yet too often those who jump on the kickstarter bandwagon forget it`s not a way to get free money with no strings attached. The money was given to PB to get the mins out in a reasonable amount of time. Nor to have others who did not back the project get to the product first. I can see why people are upset. They are not being totally unreasonable. When its PB paying out of pocket they can do wha they want and take as ong as they want. In this case it`s not their money though.

To put it another way I give a contractor 10k to fix a home in a year and a half. He not only is late by half a year. He decides to start repairing two other homes to make more money. Why would I be happy. The issue was never was about Kevin work ethic. It`s always been and it keeps getting ignored other people money was used. Right now I suggest PB tread very carefully. Looks like some of the backers are willing to take legal action. They probably won`t win but you never know.

Your comparing apples and turnips, hiring a contractor is nothing like this in any way shape or form. I have no idea how kickstarters work or whether legal action is possible, I would assume the delay of the product would have to be just because Palladium didn't feel like doing it or dragged their feet, which is not the case (even though its not my place to explain the behind the scenes happenings). I don't think Palladium has done anything wrong at all, the ks people will get their products just like promised.

as to the legality of the issue if its about delays, there is no technical legal recourse unless extremely delayed beyond reasonability since no time line was agreed to by either party, only an estimated date which is variable at best, the legal issue comes into play when PB told people before during and after that backers would get their product before anyone else, this would be construed as false advertising and misleading to say the least and could be considered fraud if product is sold at GenCon before backers get their product, now those who voted yes, relinquished their rights in this matter so say something happens and PB is unable to deliver for say another year, they have no recourse, while those who voted no will have recourse since they did not agree to Palladiums amendment of their promise.

Now the thing that surprises me is how people think selling a few hundred games at GenCon will create any buzz, considering if they do well the items will be sold and in hotel rooms of those who bought them in the first half hour of VIP viewing, and most of those will only be bought to go to eBay, since most buying to play the game either backed or can buy them cheaper elsewhere with a wait. so keep thinking it will help, but if you don't have thousands there to sell it won't make a difference.

I wonder if they pulled the No people and made sure they shipped their packages the day before they leave for the con, it is then out of their hand and in the hands of UPS and or USPS and could be construed as delivered prior to anyone else getting their packages From what I've seen that wouldn't be very many packages to get out the day before they leave.

[Kryptt]

Mam I hope your right about that.

[Maryann]

My last comment on the whole mess.... because peeing up a tree does no good...

Kevin and company are doing everything they possibly can to complete this project and get it to market, not just the kickstarter people but everyone. They want it shipped as bad as most people want it in their hot little hands and will do their utmost to get this out the door as soon as it arrives in the warehouse.

[13eowulf]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

Hell, I'm surprised there's anyone left looking for a refund. To hear him tell it, he's been buying pledges left and right.

Heh, true enough. Funny though, now that story has changed...

[Kryptt]

My last comment on the whole mess.... because peeing up a tree does no good...

Kevin and company are doing everything they possibly can to complete this project and get it to market, not just the kickstarter people but everyone. They want it shipped as bad as most people want it in their hot little hands and will do their utmost to get this out the door as soon as it arrives in the warehouse.

Mam before you go could you please let us know what the status is for wave two. I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you kindly.

[Warshield73]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

Gracious move.

And yet it couldn't be mentioned without taking a juvenile shot at the "no's".

Classy, and yet unclassy.

Schrodinger's Classiness.

Why on earth would I miss a chance to do that? I have seen no real examples of class from most of the people bashing this over and over again. I have seen baseless claims and attacks on character and intelligence where lack of experience and bad luck explain it all.

Those of us who have defended the KS and PB have been denigrated and slandered almost anytime we try to inject facts into the debate. I have been called an "idiot", told that I am willing to be treated "like a door mat" and on the KS comments section, which until this vote I only posted on once, its worse.

Was my shot juvenile? Yes, that's what made it so much fun.
Was it my opinion? Absolutely.
Did I make up any random facts to try and support it? No.
Did I put my money($650 or so of it at least) where my mouth is? Yes

[ZINO]

I voted yes. If you would like to discuss why, we can talk via PM, at GenCon or at the Open House.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rr ... m/comments
this where i vote yes it business and i am part of as a backer

[Warshield73]

[At least I know where you stand. Or don't, doormat.

Forar, any comments on how classy this is?? I can wait.

[Maryann]

My last comment on the whole mess.... because peeing up a tree does no good...

Kevin and company are doing everything they possibly can to complete this project and get it to market, not just the kickstarter people but everyone. They want it shipped as bad as most people want it in their hot little hands and will do their utmost to get this out the door as soon as it arrives in the warehouse.

Mam before you go could you please let us know what the status is for wave two. I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you kindly.

I honestly don't know the status on wave two, if I did I would be happy to share

[Warshield73]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

How do you compensate being lied to ? how do you compensate, breaking the law? seriously tell me how? Pb can avoid it all by not breaking the law, its simple and easy.

When the waitress says my food will be out in just a minute and then she drops the plate on the floor and they have to start all over again, she didn't lie, she screwed up.

If a person or company could be sued for screw ups, Kickstarter could not exist.

Get over this, you will get your toys eventually and for a lot cheaper then retail.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just for the record, many of us "yes" votes have sent PMs telling PB to put us at the back of the line if for no other reason than the slim hope that those whining the loudest, who apparently do not understand what KS is for or read the terms & conditions for it, about this will shut up for at least a week or two before they start whining about wave...

Gracious move.

And yet it couldn't be mentioned without taking a juvenile shot at the "no's".

Classy, and yet unclassy.

Schrodinger's Classiness.

Robert's Rules of Order.

Dude... what is it with you and this guy Robert? Like, do you determine what you'll have for breakfast based on a properly polled super majority of your internal organs and desires?[/quote]

Nope.
But people are acting as if counting abstentions as a vote toward the status quo is something brand new and shocking, instead of something rather normal and standard.
And they're just flat-out wrong.
It's standard operating procedure in certain situations, and it's something that's VERY common.
So common that it's described in the standard book of procedure.

[Warshield73]

someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

Unless I`m mistaken no refunds are being given. So while I think its a overreaction I can see why he would be willing to use legal action. Selling at Gencon or no always offer refunds when possible imo.

This would destroy the Kickstarter. This is like those...people who tried to sue the Veronica Mars movie because they did not like the ending or getting the digital after the first theaters started showing it.

Refunds = No more kickstarters

[Killer Cyborg]

Your comparing apples and turnips, hiring a contractor is nothing like this in any way shape or form. I have no idea how kickstarters work or whether legal action is possible, I would assume the delay of the product would have to be just because Palladium didn't feel like doing it or dragged their feet, which is not the case (even though its not my place to explain the behind the scenes happenings). I don't think Palladium has done anything wrong at all, the ks people will get their products just like promised.

Your again missing the point. Other people money was used to fund the minis. They should get the product they funded first.

When Coke puts out a new soda, do they always ship the first cases out to their stockholders?

[13eowulf]

someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

Unless I`m mistaken no refunds are being given. So while I think its a overreaction I can see why he would be willing to use legal action. Selling at Gencon or no always offer refunds when possible imo.

This would destroy the Kickstarter. This is like those...people who tried to sue the Veronica Mars movie because they did not like the ending or getting the digital after the first theaters started showing it.

Refunds = No more kickstarters

To my knowledge all those suits failed.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

How do you compensate being lied to ? how do you compensate, breaking the law? seriously tell me how? Pb can avoid it all by not breaking the law, its simple and easy.

When the waitress says my food will be out in just a minute and then she drops the plate on the floor and they have to start all over again, she didn't lie, she screwed up.

If a person or company could be sued for screw ups, Kickstarter could not exist.

Good comparison.

[13eowulf]

I think it is worthy of note that the two loudest and most Vitriolic opponents over on the RT Tactics fan FB page have admitted to either being a scalper, who is upset they wont get to the market first if Palladium sells at GenCon, and someone who is actively looking for an excuse to file suit against Palladium with the explicitly stated goal of shutting Palladium down, as opposed to seeking compensation.

How do you compensate being lied to ? how do you compensate, breaking the law? seriously tell me how? Pb can avoid it all by not breaking the law, its simple and easy.

When the waitress says my food will be out in just a minute and then she drops the plate on the floor and they have to start all over again, she didn't lie, she screwed up.

If a person or company could be sued for screw ups, Kickstarter could not exist.

Good comparison.

A very good comparison indeed.

[Warshield73]

For the budding legal scholars in the group, in order for this to be fraud or false advertising you would need the following. Keep in mind, because this is an internet site in one state, a foreign companies US subsidiary, and 2 separate American legal entities incorporated in two different states this would have to be in federal court.

1-The promise must be made before consideration, that means your money, was paid. Since the promise was months after it doesn't work, sorry.
or
2-The delay must be unconscionable or "shock the conscience of the court. A year delay on toys, good luck.
&
3-Even if both of these are present, you must show damages. Given the huge discount given to the backers the interest and the penalties for a delay like this wouldn't even come close.

My last comment on the whole mess.... because peeing up a tree does no good...

Kevin and company are doing everything they possibly can to complete this project and get it to market, not just the kickstarter people but everyone. They want it shipped as bad as most people want it in their hot little hands and will do their utmost to get this out the door as soon as it arrives in the warehouse.

My favorite post, nothing so much better describes this entire exercise.

[Hotrod]

I have no salt in this game one way or the other. I didn't contribute, and the closest I ever got to Robotech was playing with my big sister's Jetfire transformer as a little kid when she wasn't around (for which I usually got tickle-tortured). I might take up some kind of wargaming with my son in the next few years. Whether we do Robotech RPG Tactics ($99 for the starter kit) or Warhammer 40k ($94 for the current edition starting kit) will depend on our interests, the value we see in each product, and other people we could play with.

What's interesting to me about this whole process is the numbers. In particular:
59% of Kickstarter efforts fail to meet their funding goals.
Of those design-based projects that do meet their funding goals, only 25% deliver on time; The middle 50% deliver after 8 months of delay. Larger projects (RRT definitely qualifies as large) tend to have bigger delays. Overfunded projects (RRT again qualifies) tend to have bigger delays as well. Given these factors, the RRT Kickstarter project is delivering on a fairly typical timetable.

This was an ambitious project that became more ambitious as a result of the overwhelming financial support it received. No-one is getting hosed here. Kickstarter makes no guarantees that a project will be successful, meet backer expectations, deliver on time, deliver anything at all, or have the money actually get spent on the project.

I'm not familiar with the play-by-play or who said what when. I can understand the frustration of the contributors with the delays, even if they are fairly standard for this kind of Kickstarter. I can understand the indignation of those over the "absence of vote = yes" approach to this poll, even if, as it appears, 80%+ of those responding are saying yes anyway. I can also understand the importance of Gen Con to the successful commercial launch of RRT, and the need to make executive business decisions that don't make everyone happy.

The best kind of deals are the ones where everyone wins. As far as I can tell, this project is set to deliver the promised goods to the backers. Hence, they win. Palladium and Ninja Division got their project funded without having to risk their companies' financial capital. They win, too. Still, these wins are small potatoes.

The big win for everyone would be if this game becomes a big hit. More buyers means more players. More players means the backers have more people to play with. It means more people can have the kind of fun my cousin and I did at the RRT demo back in October at FanFare. That's what it's all about, right? For Palladium and Ninja Division, a big hit means revenue, business, and the opportunity to make more money with supplements and extras like that SDF thingy the Robotech guys keep talking about on the various munchkin threads.