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Killer Cyborg wrote:In the "Matrix" movies, is Neo a Good Guy?
Are the cops that he kills?

What is the taste of Blue?
In the move Kung Fu Panda, how do they hold objects with out fingers?
These questions are just as relevant as the one you ask...
...i.e. not at all.
Playing games with false equivalencies and random questions on other topics doesn't do anything to defend the CS. Well, I guess it helps to provide them cover by trying to derail the actual conversation into chasing red herrings...

Killer Cyborg wrote:In the "Matrix" movies, is Neo a Good Guy?
Are the cops that he kills?

Neo is more good than he is evil, but he's mostly somewhere between Unprincipled and Anarchist.

The police that he kills are not (Necessarily) evil, but are an active threat to him due to the Agents. In Palladium those kinds of killings would be evil acts, but he's far more Unprincipled and/or Anarchist than he is any of the evils. However it is kind of irrelevant because the Matrix doesn't have the objective morality of Palladium.

HWalsh wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In the "Matrix" movies, is Neo a Good Guy?
Are the cops that he kills?

Neo is more good than he is evil, but he's mostly somewhere between Unprincipled and Anarchist.

I could see arguments for Aberrant.

The police that he kills are not (Necessarily) evil, but are an active threat to him due to the Agents. In Palladium those kinds of killings would be evil acts, but he's far more Unprincipled and/or Anarchist than he is any of the evils. However it is kind of irrelevant because the Matrix doesn't have the objective morality of Palladium.

That's what it comes down to: can a Good person commit or misguidedly endorse Evil Acts?
If everything you know of the world tells you This Person Is Evil, and that "evil" person seems to threaten you and/or your family and/or loved ones, are you Evil if you kill them in defense?
Even if you're wrong?
Is it the intention or the result that determines alignment?

HWalsh wrote: we know who killed Prosek. A CS Citizen did. We know who she cut deals with, people in the 'burbs. The FoM, an evil terrorist group, who the CS believes may be involved doesn't take credit for it, even though they would have if they had done it. So no. Everyone knows what happened there. Prosek angered his own people and paid the price for it. Tolkeen had nothing to do with it.

Only one confirmed citizen doesn't deserve plural "his people" and the dissidents might well have connections to Tolkeen.

HWalsh wrote:You claim that then Tolkeen stopped them from investigating the assassination... I think your pants are smoking a bit, because that isn't what happened...

Page 101:

Additionally, the CS Military High Command orders raids on known and suspected communities outside the CS borders who harbor or trade with practitioners of magic, D-Bees or enemies of the State.

These aren't people that are associated with the attack on Prosek. These were people the CS has no jurisdiction over who may have only traded with practitioners of magic. Note again, the CS doesn't own North America, as much as they think they do. They have no right to attack anyone outside of their borders for using magic. They are not the rulers of Earth and everyone else just their subjects.

Whether or not they were associated with the attack wasn't confirmed because it wasn't fully investigated. There is no telling how deep the dissident plot went. Odds are mates warped that poor aide's mind because if she wanted citizenshio for her family, killing the Chairman isn't a logical way to go about it.

Mages are CS enemies. They just finished fending off a Federation of Magic invasion. They are well within their rights to raid and interrogate all surrounding magical communities, likely harboring FoM runaways.

HWalsh wrote:As to "interfering" that is a load of crap and you know it. The CS at this point has already killed everyone complicit in the assassination.

Source? Killing the knifewoman doesn't mean they had caught all conspirators.

HWalsh wrote:

Six villages in Minnesota are obliterated, and several others are raided, people interrogated and threatened, property vandalized. For the first time ever, the "Kingdom of Tolkeen" issues a warning to Chi-Town to suspend its hostilities in "their territory" or face retaliation.

So what happened here is the CS continued to attack places outside of its territory. In this case they entered Tolkeen's border and attacked six villages under Tolkeen's protection. People are interrogated, threatened, and had their stuff destroyed. Tolkeen steps up and says, "This is our land, you don't have aright to do this, get out now or we will retaliate."

It is in quotes because it is merely what they said, not because that part of Minnesota was necessarily part of Tolkeen territory. There was nothing wring with threatening and interrogating people to uncovered the plot. Authorities do this all the time when dealing with terrorists.

Property was.vandalized, not destroyed. Most likely the CS kicked some holes in some demon summoning circles on the floor so the interrogation wasn't interrupted by Balrogs.

The raided villages with people were the ones beside the six mysterious obliterated ones which we know nothing about save they were obliterated. They could have easily been full of vampires or Death Demons. This can't be counted for or against the CS until we are told what their contents were.

HWalsh wrote:They did NOT attack the CS. They issued a warning, and the CS pulled out. That is Tolkeen being REASONABLE while the CS is being unreasonable.

They didn't openly attack until later when they flipped over diplomatgate. Interfering with a terrorist plot investigation is not reasonable.

HWalsh wrote:Cool story bro. Save we know the CS killed Tolkeen's diplomat and Tolkeen knows the CS killed its diplomat.

I have an equal amount of evidence supporting Erin Tarn killing the diplomat and Tolkeen knowing that Tarn did it as you do supporting this claim.

HWalsh wrote:Bull. Tolkeen never attacked the CS. They didn't even attack the CS when the CS sacked 6 towns in its territory. You are NEVER going to pull the IC propaganda spin on us. We are PLAYERS not Characters.

RecheckSedition, doesn't say anywhere that the 6 obliterated towns were part of Tolkeen, only that they were within Minnesota.

Supposing the "our territory" claim held any merit, it could be referring to the subsequent towns where they were questioning people.

If a Summoner has a "Summon the Undead" circle and I remove the clove of garlic to stop vampires/dybuk coming at my men, I would technically be "raiding" (it wasn't my garlic, piracy!) the spice and vandalizing the circle by altering its form.

Raiding/Vandalism could be entirely justified in the right circumstances so the CS having done so isn't automatically bad.

HWalsh wrote:

Where are we told.the majority are no threat or that Karl "knows" this?

D-Bees of North America. Only 25% of all D-Bees are MDC Creatures. Meaning 75% are normal SDC and pose no greater threat than any individual. Then you have to remember that a chunk of that 25% aren't even in North America and it looks bad for you my friend. Very bad.

" no greater threat" is not the same as "no threat".

There are also many SDC dbees superior to humans. Prometheans and Zavor come to mind.

If we do away with the idea of needing MDC to be threatening we can acknowledge the threat which beings like Ogres pose. Or fast breeding orcs/Wolfen.

HWalsh wrote:We are told that the CS said no, and the last time they tried it the CS executed their diplomat and sent his body back as a threat.

The book doesn't say that.

Either your memory is off or you are intentionally altering the canon for some reason.

All we are told is the diplomat was sent back in a body bag.

Everything else you've said is unproven speculation based in assuming the worst for the CS.

HWalsh wrote:.
Tolkeen wasn't an evil Kingdom. The "Shadow Dragons" are just a spell. That and, again, all Tolkeen did was defend itself from the evil genocidal CS who were attacking them without provocation.

Shadow Dragons were a soul splitting ability which drew dragons into progressively evil alignments and made them act out base murderius instincts.

Tolkeen provoked the CS by protecting terrorism and assaulting CS forces mid negotiation.

eliakon wrote:There is no such thing as "Rightful claim" to towns.

Take this up with your local government. If no rightful claim exists then there is no basis for complaint when the CS enters a town.

eliakon wrote:ESPECIALLY if the argument is that the CS gets to make Rightful Claims.... but no one else does.

That isnt the claim. Questioning the right if the King if the City of Tolkeen to claim all Minnesota as his realm isn't lime saying only the CS can make land claims.

eliakon wrote:They were in the Kingdom of Tolkeen, that makes them part of the Kingdom of Tolkeen.
The CS does not have a rightful claim to other countries.

Unsourced. Sedition only says it was Minnesota, Tolkeen made a territorial dispute and Coalition backed off. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot and the CS made the territorial dispute.

eliakon wrote:And there was no "blocking" of anything. The book states that the CS invaded and destroyed. They were not 'investigating' anything.

Another error from you. Sedition clearly says they were interrogating people in Minnesotan towns.

eliakon wrote:So making up that the CS was investigating something and was blocked in a legitimate investigation is flat out revisionist history.

You are the one revising. Sedition 101 mentions 211 being tried and found guilty in the burbs, followed by raids on communities related to enemies of the state.

This precedes the paragraph clarifying the "band of dissidents" was a coalition of several independent groups (COSIG) a and the brigands had ties to Tolkeen.

The seriousness of the ties isn't known because Tolkeen interfered with this investigation.

eliakon wrote:The CS killed that ambassador as a message.

Entertaining fan fiction.

eliakon wrote:That too is pretty clear. If by no other fact than its conspicuous absence in the discussion. Since if there was the slightest ambiguity about the situation then such an investigation would be of relevance to the ongoing narrative, if only for the CS propaganda side.
The complete lack of such points to the fact that the CS doesn't contest the Tolkeen version of events...

No Tolkeen version of events is stated either.

By your logic, I could view the conspicuous lack of "the diplomat was murdered" as an argument that he wasn't murdered. We can't get anywhere useful that way.

eliakon wrote:The statement was that "When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever."
That is pretty telling on many levels

Of Tolkeen warmongering, yes.

eliakon wrote:first off is that its "in a body bag" not a coffin or other such dignified form return (calculated insult there)

More fan fiction.

The CS may transport their own dead soldiers via body bag and treating a Tolkeenite with equal respect. You make this sound like they had the corpse stuffed and mounted.

eliakon wrote:Second off is that "They knew the time for talking was gone forever" not that they were upset. Not that they felt that it was bad, but that they knew that talking was over.

You want to go down the rabbit hole of "X knew Y" statements meaning Y is true? "Saw" holds equal import on 98, meaning Tolkeen is canonically a festering Haven for magic and trouble.

Believing/"knowing" talking time is over doesnt explain why. Maybe they just realized Tolkeenites would assume the worst and are mad at the CS for not taking adequate steps to protect the diplomat from whatever the cause of death was. Maybe the dead diplomat was the only Tolkeenite willing to talk so the time for talk was over because the last talker was gone.

eliakon wrote:And of course there is the fact that the phrase "receives their ambassador back in a body bag" is pretty clearly "the CS killed him and sent him back as a warning." Otherwise you use different phrasing.

More fan fic, stick to the canon.

eliakon wrote:And of course there is the fact that there is not the slightest discussion of any investigation, or any discussion of possible other killers, or even of any possibility that Tolkeen is wrong in its beliefs...

Irrelevant. Books leave out many details. Doesn't mean every hole should be filled with anti-CS poison.

eliakon wrote:which is of note since they DO discuss other investigations. And they go to pains to discuss situations where the two countries have differing interpretations of events. This event though has no such discussion and is never brought up by the CS as "we were misunderstood"... its pretty clear that the CS version of events and the Tolkeen version of events are identical.

There is not ANY version of events given. Tolkeen decided talk time was up, began using lethal force on the Coalition.

eliakon wrote: ESPECIALLY considering that Tolkeen can easily resurrect the Ambassador and just ask him what happened!

So using your above logic, since they don't mention doing this, it means they didn't. So what can prevent resurrection? Perhaps being assassinated by a rune dagger by a Federation operative? Sacred by a Soul Harvester? I don't know any CS means that would still leave a body.

eliakon wrote:

Axelmania wrote:Regarding your "he knows full well"... Source? Show me where it says Karl holds these beliefs.

You mean like Sourcebook 1 page 20?
"Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniacs. His every action is motivated by his lust for power, fame, and glory. He has manipulated the humans of the Coalition Stats for years and has laid the framework for his empire very well. With everything he needs in place, Prosek can now channel his energies toward darker aspirations: the expansion of the empire! A motivating factor will be the extermination of non-humans. Yet despite his constant human supremacist speeches, Prosek is not a dedicated supremacist. That particular emphasis is only a useful means to his ends. Fanaticism is a powerful force that he is willing to inflame for his own evil purposes. Hate and vengeance will give him the people's support to invade lands they might otherwise hesitate to attack."
Point blank, in black an white that he is not a supremacist. And that he is manipulating the supremacy and genocide for purely selfish motives.

You lost track of what we were discussing. Which was whether or not he considers dbees a threat to humans. You do not have to think your species is superior to feel threatened by another species. My thinking dragons are superior to humans in every way would only make me more scared of them and more fearful for my people.

Karl talks up humans to give humans morale. You don't exactly inspire hope by lamenting how we can't hold a candle to the Kittani.

Axelmania wrote:*snip*

This is my final warning to you Axelmania. Stop your IC stuff. Nobody can be so ignorant that they think the phrase, "received him back in a body bag" is anything other than the common parlance use.

You twist the canon, intentionally assigning meaning that isn't there to actively disrupt threads like you're some kind of CS propaganda agent. If you keep doing this I will contact moderators.

I can make a good enough case that you do this to intentionally disrupt. Stop it now.

HWalsh wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:]
Very nice
Lazlo plans for the xiticix are simple
Plan A contain
Plan B genocide
Funny if the coalition wants to kill every dbee and mage, why do so many live with in the coalition states, or at times employ them?

No "if" involved. They do.

People live in the CS because they offer protection. The world is a dangerous place. The largest threats come from people, humans and D-Bees​ alike, so people choose to turn a blind eye.

This doesn't make the CS good. It doesn't make then not Nazis either.

Other people believe the CS propaganda. The CS lies to its people. They do so to maintain control.

The CS does have part of its population that is in fact are pro-dbee, while it's I think 5% could be higher or lower.

Citation please.
.

cwc page46 which has the range from 5% to 10%

There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth. There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods. Magic users really can change shape to look like other people. Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family. It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.


Is the CS evil? Of course it's evil. They're a mix of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire and Kevin Siembieda's vision of a US gone wrong. But they still may be the best hope for humanity's survival on RIFTS Earth. The CS is like a racist cop in a horror movie. You don't really like him, and he's not a good person, but you'd rather be around him than out there with the horde of zombies that are trying to eat you. Is he a bad guy? Yeah, he's a bad guy. But he's not as bad as a lot of the other things that are out there.

Eagle wrote:There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth. There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods. Magic users really can change shape to look like other people. Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family. It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.


Is the CS evil? Of course it's evil. They're a mix of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire and Kevin Siembieda's vision of a US gone wrong. But they still may be the best hope for humanity's survival on RIFTS Earth. The CS is like a racist cop in a horror movie. You don't really like him, and he's not a good person, but you'd rather be around him than out there with the horde of zombies that are trying to eat you. Is he a bad guy? Yeah, he's a bad guy. But he's not as bad as a lot of the other things that are out there.

Sorry, no, that's just wrong the CS most definitely is not morally superior to the Nazis. Humanity is not in fact in a life or death struggle to survive, there are multiple human nations around and they manage just fine WITHOUT going around killing everyone that's not human. They recognize that MORALLY they have no right to wipe out a village because someone MIGHT be evil and a threat to them, meanwhile the CS without hesitation will eliminate the same village and claim that they were a den if iniquity even when it's factually false. By the same token just because it is true that there are some non-humans that can suck the life from a person and some mages can shapeshift to look like other people (for which where exactly is that inherently evil or deserving of immediate execution? ) it does not follow that it means it's okay to kill every non-human and mage around because they MIGHT be capable of doing that.

Eagle wrote:There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth. There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods. Magic users really can change shape to look like other people. Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family. It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.


Is the CS evil? Of course it's evil. They're a mix of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire and Kevin Siembieda's vision of a US gone wrong. But they still may be the best hope for humanity's survival on RIFTS Earth. The CS is like a racist cop in a horror movie. You don't really like him, and he's not a good person, but you'd rather be around him than out there with the horde of zombies that are trying to eat you. Is he a bad guy? Yeah, he's a bad guy. But he's not as bad as a lot of the other things that are out there.

1) eh, not really. at one point, humanity was in a life and death struggle. in current rifts setting? it really isn't. even if earth was the only place with humans (and it isn't, not by a long shot), humanity on earth is in no danger of extinction. in fact, i suspect that the CS is one of the larger causes of human death with their needless wars and human wave tactics at this point in the setting. the CS has a ridiculously large army to the point where nobody else can stand up to them (or at least, nobody who cares enough to do so). the only types of attacks that have any chance of succeeding are terror attacks, and while those are certainly unpleasant, they are largely occuring because the CS has declared war on a lot of people for no good reason, and they simply aren't going to wipe out the CS no matter how you look at it. a few people will be killed. it will be much smaller than the number of people the CS has killed for the sake of prosek's power.

2) except they aren't really the truth, they're twisted half-truths at best. in an infinite megaverse, yes there are some d-bees that are trying to kill you... and that number would be a lot smaller if you didn't live in a nation that wants to kill them for the crime of existing. given sheer numbers, there are also a lot of humans (many of them native to earth) who also want to kill you... again, because you live in a nation that wants to kill them. magic doesn't inherently corrupt you, and it isn't true to say that "all d-bees are dangerous" if only a small minority want to (and most of that small minority are acting in self-defense). i suppose there's more truth than there was in the nazi's claims about the jews, but it's all still lies.

the CS is not humanity's best hope for survival. if the entirety of rifts earth was to suddenly be destroyed, humanity would survive in a million worlds all across the megaverse. if north america was to sink into the ocean, humanity would survive on 6 of the other 7* continents (and for all i know, maybe antarctica has some humans too).

there are a lot of other nations in existence that don't have the same policies as the CS, and survive. the only reasonable conclusion is that the things the CS does, supposedly in the name of survival of the human species, are simply not necessary. other communities have embraced d-bees and magic users and even those horrifying shapechanging creatures like dragons, and the main danger of extinction for them isn't from d-bees or shapechanging monsters or magic users, it is from the coalition states.


* i'm counting atlantis as a continent. and yes, humans would survive there, in the form of tattooed man slaves if nothing else.

Eagle wrote:There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

That might have been true like 100-200 years ago in North America, it isn't true by 104 PA though. The Rifts have, more or less, settled down. Most D-Bees aren't any more of a threat to humans than other humans. There is virtually nothing that is a significant threat to the CS in North America (that the CS can possibly know about) and, in fact, most of the potential threats to them are specifically because they are jack holes.

It isn't like the CS (leadership) is unaware of this, we know better. We know they know because they have to use propaganda and lies to convince their people of this fact.

Was Tolkeen a threat to the CS? According to canon? No.

They tried to make peace with the CS, again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They literally tried to make peace with the CS for a minimum of 79 years... (Assuming the minimum possible time "Decades" can mean, at 20, most likely they tried for over 100 years.)

SoT 1, pg. 97 (12 PA)

For decades, Tolkeen would try fruitlessly to establish trade and cultural exchanges with Chi-Town only to be harshly rejected.

SoT 1, pg. 101 (71 PA)

Karl never pretended to understand what made his father so unwilling to send units into Minnesota or to confront Tolkeen directly, but he has no such misgivings. He is more than willing to send Coalition troops to its doorstep, and in a show of force, designates several new permanent and mobile outposts just inside the borders of old Minnesota.

In Minnesota, this causes serious concern for the Kingdom of Tolkeen and the outlying allied communities. Tolkeen tries in vain to make diplomatic connections with the Coalition States to avert what they (correctly) predict is the beginning of a downward spiral to total war between the CS and Tolkeen. When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever. From this moment forth, Tolkeen would meet any Coalition military personnel in its territory with lethal force.

This place is NOT A THREAT to the CS. They never wanted war with the CS. They didn't strike first. They were peaceful. They had been peaceful with the CS for over a blinking century.

And, for those wondering, the ambassador wasn't accidentally killed, he didn't suffer a freak health crisis, the line there clearly indicates that the Coalition States murdered him.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth.

Yes and no.

There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods.

There really are some humans who want to shoot you in the face with plasma and have their way with your family.

Magic users really can change shape to look like other people.

So? Psychics can do that and more, and the CS doesn't want to hunt them to extinction.

Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family.

Some humans really do want to devour your family also.

It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.

Only if you ignore context. The CS doesn't say, "A small percentage of d-bees want to devour your family, though this is estimated to be less than 25% or so. Most d-bees are just like humans only with slight cosmetic differences."

The CS says, "D-bees want to devour you, and they are all dangerous, you never know when one is going to turn on you."

The CS spreads lies like, "In the news today Farmer Bowen Hicks was found dead today, a victim of D-Bee violence."

(In reality Bowen Hicks was trying to rob the D-Bee at rifle point and was killed in self-defense.)

Is the CS evil? Of course it's evil. They're a mix of Nazi Germany and the Galactic Empire and Kevin Siembieda's vision of a US gone wrong. But they still may be the best hope for humanity's survival on RIFTS Earth.

Incorrect, the correct answer would be Lazlo. Which is a much better hope for humanity's survival. The CS is a threat to humanity more than its protector.

My handle probably makes this no surprise, but I agree with Eagle.

Yes, the CS, as embodied in its leadership, is evil. Yes, it is intended to evoke the image of Nazis.

However,

There is a very real threat to the CS & its populace posed by other-dimensional beings. There was no similar credible existential threat posed to Germany by ethnic & religious minorities in the 1930s. Through its own ignorance, the Coalition has prevented itself from making use of many of the (magical) methods by which it could discern friend from foe, which has fed its paranoia regarding the threat posed to it by non-humans, but the failure to understand those methods does not make the threat to the population any less real, nor abrogates the government's responsibility to act on that threat. Much of the CS's brutality is not purely ideological, but more a byproduct of fear, ignorance, and the understandable instinct not to take any chances with one's own self-preservation. The Coalition States have proven time and again willing to turn a blind-eye to D-bees in their midst that are discrete and non-threatening, be they in the 'Burbs or fleeing a conflict zone, which is far better treatment than the actual Nazis afforded their victims.

As a moral defense, this is hardly a plea of innocence as it is a case for leniency. At the very top, the Coalition's leadership is well aware that there are means and methods to disseminate many peaceable d-bees from dangerous supernatural creatures, and they refuse to do so out of political & economic expediency rather than physical inability. They also play upon their populace's fears to maintain control rather than seeking to reassure their citizens of their safety.

Regardless, while both entities are totalitarian & evil, the historical crimes & murderous ideology of the Nazis are a significantly darker shade of black than that of the Coalition States. Whether or not that makes any difference to you is an ultimately subjective assessment, but I would posit that just as a judge takes into account the perpetrator's mental & emotional state in a murder trial and may assign a lesser punishment in instances where strong emotions such as fear or grief may have clouded the assailant's judgement, so to is the Coalition States a sort of "2nd degree" evil.

Shark_Force wrote:

Eagle wrote:There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth. There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods. Magic users really can change shape to look like other people. Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family. It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.

........

1) eh, not really. at one point, humanity was in a life and death struggle. in current rifts setting? it really isn't. even if earth was the only place with humans (and it isn't, not by a long shot), humanity on earth is in no danger of extinction. in fact, i suspect that the CS is one of the larger causes of human death with their needless wars and human wave tactics at this point in the setting. the CS has a ridiculously large army to the point where nobody else can stand up to them (or at least, nobody who cares enough to do so). the only types of attacks that have any chance of succeeding are terror attacks, and while those are certainly unpleasant, they are largely occuring because the CS has declared war on a lot of people for no good reason, and they simply aren't going to wipe out the CS no matter how you look at it. a few people will be killed. it will be much smaller than the number of people the CS has killed for the sake of prosek's power.

2) except they aren't really the truth, they're twisted half-truths at best. in an infinite megaverse, yes there are some d-bees that are trying to kill you... and that number would be a lot smaller if you didn't live in a nation that wants to kill them for the crime of existing. given sheer numbers, there are also a lot of humans (many of them native to earth) who also want to kill you... again, because you live in a nation that wants to kill them. magic doesn't inherently corrupt you, and it isn't true to say that "all d-bees are dangerous" if only a small minority want to (and most of that small minority are acting in self-defense). i suppose there's more truth than there was in the nazi's claims about the jews, but it's all still lies.

1) The accuracy of your statement is verifiable to you as a somewhat omniscient reader of the fiction, but not from the perspective of a RIFTs Earth inhabitant. As far as the CS is concerned, humans not from RIFTs Earth aren't humans, just some very similar (sinister) form of D-Bee, and they have escaped the life & death struggle of the Dark Ages because of their actions, not in spite of them.

2) And yet, knowing as we do that there are species in the Megaverse that are 99% or 100% evil per the published source material, treating each individual demon as we do modern day humans and granting them all the benefits of innocence until they murder a passerby and consume their flesh would be not only wrong but the highest of folly. If even the most peaceable of RIFTs communities such as Lazlo have realized there are intelligent species that must be killed on sight (Demons, Xiticix), why should we expect the Coalition, with its far weaker understanding of the Megaverse as a whole to embrace any and all inhuman sentient life with no means to verify their true nature? Can we blame them for not wanting to take chances when they can't tell a D'norr from a Devilkin?

Proseksword wrote:I would posit that just as a judge takes into account the perpetrator's mental & emotional state in a murder trial and may assign a lesser punishment in instances where strong emotions such as fear or grief may have clouded the assailant's judgement, so to is the Coalition States a sort of "2nd degree" evil.

We're I a judge passing judgement it would be as follows:

Karl Prosek and his remaining children are to be removed from power and the line of succession and executed for crimes against humanity, including d-bees.

Lady Prosek will ascend to the throne.

All current military advisors are to be executed. Any squad commander found guilty of ordering the murder of a civilian during SoT is to be executed.

The CS must reduce it's soldier number, including Psi-Stalkers and Dog Boys to no more than 1 million in number. They may not increase their military beyond that number for a period not less that 200 years without expressed written consent from Lord Coake.

The CS must reduce it's stockpile of weapons to a number that will be chosen by Lord Coake.

These stockpiles are to be distributed to other kingdoms to aid in their defenses. Any not given will be recycled to raw materials for use in the rebuilding of the city of Tolkeen.

The CS must publicly recite, to their citizens, a full summary of all lies that has been disseminated to them.

The CS must provide education to all of its citizens.

The CS must also provide an unmoderated forum to allow the free exchange of ideas among it's citizens.

The CS must dissolve it's state-run news and may not start another. News will be disseminated to the citizens of the CS through private news organizations that must be approved by Lord Coake or a panel chosen by him.

The CS is given limited right to self-government. They may make laws only that have been approved by a committee appointed by Lord Coake. This status will remain in effect for a period not less than 50 but not more than 100 years.

That's about as lenient as I would get on the CS.

Proseksword wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Eagle wrote:There are two primary differences between the Coalition and Nazi Germany. Both of these favor the Coalition on the morality scale.

1) The Coalition exists in a world where humanity is in a life or death struggle to survive. This isn't propaganda, it is fact. That's what the whole RIFTS setting is about. Germany wasn't in any danger of ceasing to exist back in the 1930s. They were suffering from a horrible economy and poverty, but no one was worried that a dragon was going to eat them. RIFTS Earth is a much less civilized place and life is much harder. The Coalitions actions are barbaric, but they are less barbaric than the Nazis relative to the time period that they live in.

2) Some of the things the Coalition says are actually the truth. There really are people who want to suck out your soul and sacrifice it to the dark gods. Magic users really can change shape to look like other people. Some D-Bees really do want to devour your family. It's not true of all of them, but it's way more true than the things the Nazis said about the Jews.

........

1) eh, not really. at one point, humanity was in a life and death struggle. in current rifts setting? it really isn't. even if earth was the only place with humans (and it isn't, not by a long shot), humanity on earth is in no danger of extinction. in fact, i suspect that the CS is one of the larger causes of human death with their needless wars and human wave tactics at this point in the setting. the CS has a ridiculously large army to the point where nobody else can stand up to them (or at least, nobody who cares enough to do so). the only types of attacks that have any chance of succeeding are terror attacks, and while those are certainly unpleasant, they are largely occuring because the CS has declared war on a lot of people for no good reason, and they simply aren't going to wipe out the CS no matter how you look at it. a few people will be killed. it will be much smaller than the number of people the CS has killed for the sake of prosek's power.

2) except they aren't really the truth, they're twisted half-truths at best. in an infinite megaverse, yes there are some d-bees that are trying to kill you... and that number would be a lot smaller if you didn't live in a nation that wants to kill them for the crime of existing. given sheer numbers, there are also a lot of humans (many of them native to earth) who also want to kill you... again, because you live in a nation that wants to kill them. magic doesn't inherently corrupt you, and it isn't true to say that "all d-bees are dangerous" if only a small minority want to (and most of that small minority are acting in self-defense). i suppose there's more truth than there was in the nazi's claims about the jews, but it's all still lies.

1) The accuracy of your statement is verifiable to you as a somewhat omniscient reader of the fiction, but not from the perspective of a RIFTs Earth inhabitant. As far as the CS is concerned, humans not from RIFTs Earth aren't humans, just some very similar (sinister) form of D-Bee, and they have escaped the life & death struggle of the Dark Ages because of their actions, not in spite of them.

First of this is false.
The "Dee-bees are evil" thing was, and is, a political creation of Karl Prosek for political use.
Thus if it was, deliberately created as a known lie then I am sorry, it is not a valid defense.

To start with... the CS has one of the most advanced masteries of genetics in the megaverse. Its pretty easy for them to do some trivial level DNA tests (if they wanted) and confirm that "yes, these people that say that they are humans, are indeed humans"

And the "life and death struggle of the dark ages" was escaped long before the CS was founded let alone before the Proseks and their filth came to power and corrupted the entire system to evil. So once again, nope sorry you don't get to try and claim that something that the Prosek's genocidal polices had nothing to do with is a justification for those policies.

Proseksword wrote:2) And yet, knowing as we do that there are species in the Megaverse that are 99% or 100% evil per the published source material, treating each individual demon as we do modern day humans and granting them all the benefits of innocence until they murder a passerby and consume their flesh would be not only wrong but the highest of folly. If even the most peaceable of RIFTs communities such as Lazlo have realized there are intelligent species that must be killed on sight (Demons, Xiticix), why should we expect the Coalition, with its far weaker understanding of the Megaverse as a whole to embrace any and all inhuman sentient life with no means to verify their true nature? Can we blame them for not wanting to take chances when they can't tell a D'norr from a Devilkin?

Yes, there are a tiny handful of demons in the megaverse.
Yep. However no one else seems to have a problem surviving with out going around murdering everything that isn't human.
Odd, it is almost as if the claim that "if it is not a human it must be a demon and should die" is not true.
Almost as if it were the false claim of an evil genocidal person and their supporters trying to justify their evil
And sorry, you can tell a D'norr from a Devilkin quite easily... if you bother to.
It is the willfully ignorant that deliberately choose to not find out anything about anyone that are then claiming that their own willful ignorance justifies their mass murder and torture.
Sorry, no that doesn't work.
This is just more attempts at retroactive justification of the CS.

And for the record, places like Lazlo? Yeah, the presumption IS that a race is not evil until proven otherwise. The presumption is not that a race is demonic and should be exterminated until proven otherwise.
The CS has it backwards.
You assume that intelligent life is, wait for it... intelligent life and can co-exist. Then, if proved to be wrong, then you take steps. The last step, used only in the last extremis of self defense of other life is genocide.
Genocide is not the first response to meeting other life forms.

A dose of reality: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/funeral-hom ... -1.1708145

Bagged != Dead

Dead != Murdered

Murdered != Murdered by a CS citizen

Murder by CS citizen != murdered with Karl's approval

A lot of speculative jumps are being made here from what we know to have happened and what people assume happened.

HWalsh wrote:

Axelmania wrote:*snip*

This is my final warning to you Axelmania. Stop your IC stuff. Nobody can be so ignorant that they think the phrase, "received him back in a body bag" is anything other than the common parlance use.

You twist the canon, intentionally assigning meaning that isn't there to actively disrupt threads like you're some kind of CS propaganda agent. If you keep doing this I will contact moderators.

I can make a good enough case that you do this to intentionally disrupt. Stop it now.

Walsh you shouldn't bully other users who don't agree with your speculation. I am not disrupting anything.

The cause of death is never stated. All we are told is he is sent back in a body bag.

Guys like you who want to assume the worst about the CS may assume what you like but I remain neutral and open to any possibilities that exist.

If you believe your interpretation is right then petition KS to explain the diplomat incident in greater detail in an upcoming book.

Seems like something great for the Disavowed book. It is hard to believe the Vanguard wouldn't be somehow involved in Chi-Town / Tolkeen diplomacy.

You are the one twisting the RAW, claiming "common parlance" assigns meaning to an unexplained situation.

I assign no meaning at all: I have no idea how the ambassador died or what conclusions NPCs came to about it.

Your explanation is plausible, but it is also plausible that his death was not a CS murder but that Tolkeen thought it was.

I do not think I should be threatened for not agreeing with your assumptions. I hope this is not some kind of "he who reports first" situation because I am hesitant to hassle more when I believe we can settle this disagreement civilly.

I am not putting forth propaganda, I an simply open-minded and resist assuming the worst about the CS as the only possible outcome.

Unless it says in the book he was murdered I will not take "sent back in a body bag" to automatically mean the sender of the bag murdered the bagged

Heck, I am already guilty of buying into your implications by assuming the diplomat even died. It is possible to move the living in body bags. In Kill Book and Walking Dead there are examples of living characters being transported in coffins.

What books imply and the actual stated canon are very different. The diplomat being returned in a bag is a fact. The diplomat having died, being murdered, killed by an official decree from.the emperor, or whatever else you want to GUESS is not actually canon.

What if, for example, a guy like Chalk or Drogue had killed the ambassador without approval from Karl Prosek? What if Karl had them punished? Or what if it was framed as an accident and Karl bought that explanation but Tolkeen didn't?

It is a big bucket of whodunnit but all we absolutely know is the coalition bagged the diplomat and returned him. I should not be persecuted for only believing this RAW (reality as written) and not accepting your guesses as.facts.

Nightmask wrote:Humanity is not in fact in a life or death struggle to survive, there are multiple human nations around and they manage just fine WITHOUT going around killing everyone that's not human.

Many live in the protective shadow of the CS.

Nations existing doesn't mean humanity isn't struggling for life. NGR is certainly struggling against gargoyles. Warlords are struggling against Russian demons.

HWalsh wrote: place is NOT A THREAT to the CS. They never wanted war with the CS. They didn't strike first. They were peaceful. They had been peaceful with the CS for over a blinking century

Tolkeen's magic coddling and lack of policing allowed hundreds of Soul Harvesters to propagate there. That is a threat.

Meeting CS exploring Minnesota with lethal force is not peaceful. Interfering with terrorist investigations and stopping the Coalition from extending a hand to human commu cities in Minnesota to protect them from supernatural invaders is not peaceful.

CS answering to coake, that rich, the guy can't control his our people, half went off to fight for the evil folks of tolkeen, after he told them not too.
Sorry I'll stick with Karl , with demons fight in the northwest, vampires moving up from the south into the southwest,bugs to the north ,duncson and his scum bags to east, the crazy little toaster on the east coast, and the tolkeen terrorists that crawling around now. I'm pretty sure FQ can take out lazlo.

Axelmania wrote:Heck, I am already guilty of buying into your implications by assuming the diplomat even died. It is possible to move the living in body bags.

Ok, seriously?

I guess that answers the question I'd been kicking around. I wasn't sure if you were just someone who had been playing CS or their supporters and had somehow misread this thread a personal attack calling you a neo nazi or something, or just a troll. Nice to know its the latter.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS answering to coake, that rich, the guy can't control his our people, half went off to fight for the evil folks of tolkeen, after he told them not too.
Sorry I'll stick with Karl , with demons fight in the northwest, vampires moving up from the south into the southwest,bugs to the north ,duncson and his scum bags to east, the crazy little toaster on the east coast, and the tolkeen terrorists that crawling around now. I'm pretty sure FQ can take out lazlo.

Heh. Honestly FQ is the one place that absolutely can't take out Lazlo. Their nova cannon would obliterate the GB legion. Longer range, and they move slowly.

For those that don't know, Rifter 58 detailed that they figured out how to open a rift... Into a sun.