Anti-Robot Solutions

[Blue_Lion]

Plasma explosions, ok heres a question folks: why give a weapon that can only damage the main body of a target a blast radius? it hits every main body inside a 15 ft radius? ever main body only inside a 30ft globe? or does it burn everything inside that 30 ft, like the trees, rocks, ground, etc. does a gas explosion only damage the people in it, or does it burn walls, blow out windows, set furniture on fire, etc? main body damage only eases record-keeping but it don't work for realism with explosions.

and trust me, nothing feels more real then being ringside to an explosion. they are some scary stuff yo.

plasma missiles are basically ballistic fuel/air explosions, as ANYTING burns at the touch of plasma: air, trees, rock, stone, brick metal glass, concrete. Watch a video of a plasma torch cutting damn near anything then imagine that by Rifts rules a plasma torch is a 1md or less damage tool. plasma missiles or grenades is like getting belched on by a STAR. The surface of teh sun is 5605 Celsius on average. the temperature of a plasma torch is 28000 °C. thats 5 times hotter than the surface of our sun.

its gonna hurt, and its gonna hurt your EVERYTHING.

Damage from AOE is not applied to every part of every thing for several reason. It has been debated here several times.
Such as
1 it renders aoe weapons insanely lethal.
2 it adds to book keeping.

A HE as I understand it deals damage by applying sudden impact to every thing in its blast radius.

A fuel air explosion as I understand it spreads a special combustible material over an area then detonates that material resulting in a even amount of pressure across ed the primary kill zone.(a normal bomb force dispates as you move away the source of the explosion.)

A rifts plasma missile if I recall is described as burning, napalm like affect that means a rifts missile is nothing like a fueled air bomb that crushes the target as the primary damage source of damage. It is more a globe of fire affect by description than a true explosion.


(The idea of inconstant rulings on aoe does kind of erk me, as fundamental flawed concept if you are going to have a fire ball damage every part it touches then a pressure shock wave should as well.)

[ShadowLogan]

@slade
I think for simplicity it is best to just damage the main body (or what ever is logically taking the brunt) when dealing with AOE attacks regardless of the blast radius.

Lets use the PA-06A SAMAS power armor getting struck by a single Plasma Missile. The SAMAS has 17 locations listed with MDC values (CWC pg113). Lets says it's at full strength and the missile does full damage (critical for MM/old-SRM, just max for new SRM).

Normally we just take off the 120 points from the main body. However if we apply the 1/2 damage to everything else in the radius, you have to take the 60 points off every location, all 16 remaining ones. And don't forget that any extra damage then transfers to adjoining locations (so if you deplete the hand it transfers to the arm, etc). Which in this instance works out to an additional 225 points of damage transferring to the main body. A more realistic and lethal experience for sure than just keeping it simple, but one that will take additional time to track.

And that's with the SAMAS and only 17 locations, what about targets that have more like the CR-004 Walker (31 IINM) or CR-005 (~25 IINM) or the Glitter Boy Killer (34 IINM). It will take even longer to track damage for both the GM and the PCs as you add locations and consider damage transfer.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

And here we have a perfect example of why even though I like a lot of Palladium's settings, their actual mechanics go right in the bin in favor of systems that both work and are at least somewhat realistic.

Being hit by an explosive *should* be horribly damaging, if not lethal. I wouldn't bleed damage over from location to location though. If the hand gets destroyed, any extra damage is just lost since the arm is *already* involved in the explosion. It's not going to take extra simply because the hand couldn't withstand the damage being dealt to it. That's as absurd as thinking that if two people in body armor are in an explosion's radius, and one of them dies, the other will take the overflow damage.

It's been a while since I've read those particular rules, but from what I recall the rules for explosives say that everything in the radius takes damage. If there are five Xiticix in the radius, they all take damage. Two robots and a guy in body armor, all take damage. So what kind of mental gymnastics are necessary to think that two suits of power armor that are involved are only going to take hits to their main body?

Having only one damage capacity listing for a monster is laziness on the part of the publisher, compounded by laziness on the part of the GM that doesn't fix it. A dragon has 1000 damage capacity (your choice of scale)? Ok, a quarter of that is the DC for his head. 50% for limbs.

If you don't want to do the record-keeping that comes with combat, go play D&D or a computer game. Or find a way to turn other games (such as Rifts) into computer games, with the GM placing and controlling monsters, NPC's, weather, etc).

I really wish this website would stop logging me out constantly, even though I have the "Keep me logged in" box checked. When actually logged in I don't even see most of that exchange above.

[slade2501]

according to Rifts Ultimate Edition missile rules, page 363: everyone and everything in the blast radius suffers half-damage. so a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6md inflicts full damage to the target and EVERYTHING ELSE within the blast takes half the rolled damage.

Plasma missiles (page 362) will blast everything in the blast radius with destructive mega damage intensity, lasting 3-5 seconds and flash-burning any SDC material in the blast radius to ash without hope of survival.

In other words, it fills the globe diameter with fire and burning destruction, touching everything inside.

Explosives SHOULD make players think twice, or consider surrender or retreat. one or two good missile hits should convince that UAR-1 pilot to retreat, and cover his infantry. It should scare that demon or dragon into easier hunting elsewhere. It should fry a monsters eyeballs right out of its head, blinding it and giving the players an advantage. it should vaporize D-bee village in a CS War crime.

and as for locations taking floating or cascading damage, those are the breaks i guess. record keep as much or as little as works for you individually. I would rule of thumb that several missile hits would cripple a PA limb anyway, possibly killing a pilot. the thinist armor should fail first, causing a breach and serious damage. this is how nations capture enemy craft for study, they damage it and kill the pilot without causing total destruction of the vehicle.

[slade2501]

And here we have a perfect example of why even though I like a lot of Palladium's settings, their actual mechanics go right in the bin in favor of systems that both work and are at least somewhat realistic.

Being hit by an explosive *should* be horribly damaging, if not lethal. I wouldn't bleed damage over from location to location though. If the hand gets destroyed, any extra damage is just lost since the arm is *already* involved in the explosion. It's not going to take extra simply because the hand couldn't withstand the damage being dealt to it. That's as absurd as thinking that if two people in body armor are in an explosion's radius, and one of them dies, the other will take the overflow damage.

It's been a while since I've read those particular rules, but from what I recall the rules for explosives say that everything in the radius takes damage. If there are five Xiticix in the radius, they all take damage. Two robots and a guy in body armor, all take damage. So what kind of mental gymnastics are necessary to think that two suits of power armor that are involved are only going to take hits to their main body?

Having only one damage capacity listing for a monster is laziness on the part of the publisher, compounded by laziness on the part of the GM that doesn't fix it. A dragon has 1000 damage capacity (your choice of scale)? Ok, a quarter of that is the DC for his head. 50% for limbs.

If you don't want to do the record-keeping that comes with combat, go play D&D or a computer game. Or find a way to turn other games (such as Rifts) into computer games, with the GM placing and controlling monsters, NPC's, weather, etc).

I really wish this website would stop logging me out constantly, even though I have the "Keep me logged in" box checked. When actually logged in I don't even see most of that exchange above.

I agree

[Killer Cyborg]

It's been a while since I've read those particular rules, but from what I recall the rules for explosives say that everything in the radius takes damage. If there are five Xiticix in the radius, they all take damage. Two robots and a guy in body armor, all take damage. So what kind of mental gymnastics are necessary to think that two suits of power armor that are involved are only going to take hits to their main body?

The same kind of mental gymnastics that say that the Xiticix take that damage to their main body, NOT to each part of them including eyes and anetennae.

Having only one damage capacity listing for a monster is laziness on the part of the publisher, compounded by laziness on the part of the GM that doesn't fix it. A dragon has 1000 damage capacity (your choice of scale)? Ok, a quarter of that is the DC for his head. 50% for limbs.

Well, back when EBA only listed one MDC pool, we figured the same thing, and estimated most helmet MDC at like 12-17 MDC out of that overall pool.
Then when Palladium came out with MDC by location for EBA, we found out that a suit of armor that was listed with like 70 MDC was likely to have a helmet that had an additional 50 MDC or so.
They'd probably use similar math for dragons and such.

If you don't want to do the record-keeping that comes with combat, go play D&D or a computer game. Or find a way to turn other games (such as Rifts) into computer games, with the GM placing and controlling monsters, NPC's, weather, etc).

There's "record keeping," and there's "make-work that slows down the game."

I really wish this website would stop logging me out constantly, even though I have the "Keep me logged in" box checked.

Yeah, I don't get why that happens.

[Killer Cyborg]

according to Rifts Ultimate Edition missile rules, page 363: everyone and everything in the blast radius suffers half-damage. so a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6md inflicts full damage to the target and EVERYTHING ELSE within the blast takes half the rolled damage.

Plasma missiles (page 362) will blast everything in the blast radius with destructive mega damage intensity, lasting 3-5 seconds and flash-burning any SDC material in the blast radius to ash without hope of survival.

In other words, it fills the globe diameter with fire and burning destruction, touching everything inside.

Nope.
Keep reading.

Explosives SHOULD make players think twice, or consider surrender or retreat. one or two good missile hits should convince that UAR-1 pilot to retreat, and cover his infantry. It should scare that demon or dragon into easier hunting elsewhere. It should fry a monsters eyeballs right out of its head, blinding it and giving the players an advantage. it should vaporize D-bee village in a CS War crime.

It would make explosives king of virtually every battlefield.
Which might be relatively realistic, arguably, but isn't the kind of cinematic feel that Palladium is going for.

[slade2501]

according to Rifts Ultimate Edition missile rules, page 363: everyone and everything in the blast radius suffers half-damage. so a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6md inflicts full damage to the target and EVERYTHING ELSE within the blast takes half the rolled damage.

Plasma missiles (page 362) will blast everything in the blast radius with destructive mega damage intensity, lasting 3-5 seconds and flash-burning any SDC material in the blast radius to ash without hope of survival.

In other words, it fills the globe diameter with fire and burning destruction, touching everything inside.

Nope.
Keep reading.

Explosives SHOULD make players think twice, or consider surrender or retreat. one or two good missile hits should convince that UAR-1 pilot to retreat, and cover his infantry. It should scare that demon or dragon into easier hunting elsewhere. It should fry a monsters eyeballs right out of its head, blinding it and giving the players an advantage. it should vaporize D-bee village in a CS War crime.

It would make explosives king of virtually every battlefield.
Which might be relatively realistic, arguably, but isn't the kind of cinematic feel that Palladium is going for.

missiles have several disadvantages. they have low ammunition counts, high costs per round (2500 per missile to start), require launchers and or targeting systems that draw attention on sensors (radar or laser lock), can be shot down/cause fratricide (missiles have LOW mdc) can be dodged in low numbers (below a volley of 4), attract serious attention ( the blast is visible for miles, the sound of explosions carry far better than weapons fire), the blast radius makes for indiscriminate damage/friendly fire and probably more that don't spring to mind. they are not perfect, but they ARE deadly.

[Killer Cyborg]

It would make explosives king of virtually every battlefield.
Which might be relatively realistic, arguably, but isn't the kind of cinematic feel that Palladium is going for.

missiles have several disadvantages. they have low ammunition counts, high costs per round (2500 per missile to start), require launchers and or targeting systems that draw attention on sensors (radar or laser lock), can be shot down/cause fratricide (missiles have LOW mdc) can be dodged in low numbers (below a volley of 4), attract serious attention ( the blast is visible for miles, the sound of explosions carry far better than weapons fire), the blast radius makes for indiscriminate damage/friendly fire and probably more that don't spring to mind. they are not perfect, but they ARE deadly.

All true.
Grenades and other smaller explosive rounds, though, are a different story.

[Khanibal]

Uh, it's a game. It's a game where the Glitter Boy shoots at the dragon, while the wizard sticks the SAMAS suit to the ground so he doesn't get away. Suspension of Disbelief for the purpose of maximizing the enjoyment is par for the course.

[ShadowLogan]

If you don't want to do the record-keeping that comes with combat, go play D&D or a computer game. Or find a way to turn other games (such as Rifts) into computer games, with the GM placing and controlling monsters, NPC's, weather, etc).

It isn't record keeping that is the issue per say as Killer Cyborg said, its that it will slow the game down if the PCs and the GM have to record damage to multiple target areas, or even figure out which target areas may or may not be in the radius.

how long would it take you to mark off 17 locations for a single target? And if we go bigger units with more locations, are all those locations inside the designated blast radius? If not how much time do you want to spend working out what might be in the radius and such? How much time do you want the GM to be doing the record keeping for the NPCs that the PCs harm?

As Killer Cyborg also said, PB is going for more of a cinematic feel over realism. That doesn't means realism doesn't have its place (and there are times the rules allow common sense to prevail, if you know where to look). Personally I find the scale issues of Palladium Combat to be a bigger issue than their handling of AOE attacks.

And PER the RULES examples, AOE attacks don't double dip on targets (ie, AOE doesn't do damage to limbs plus main body of a guy). RMB pg42-4 combat example doesn't have the SAMAS take 90pts plus 45pts to everything else, just 90pts. RUE doesn't have this example AFAIK.

according to Rifts Ultimate Edition missile rules, page 363: everyone and everything in the blast radius suffers half-damage. so a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6md inflicts full damage to the target and EVERYTHING ELSE within the blast takes half the rolled damage.

Well the full quote is "So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6 M.D inflicts the full 5d6M.d. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion."

So for AOE attacks, a target is treated as having one location (main body), not multiple locations given the attack can land at the feet of the target and would do full damage. Now the rules, do allow for the damage to be lethal (if you jump on the grenade to act as a shield, RCB1r) and redirected to the legs (if they land at the feet, Megaversally there is an optional rule in 1E RT).

missiles have several disadvantages. they have low ammunition counts, high costs per round (2500 per missile to start), require launchers and or targeting systems that draw attention on sensors (radar or laser lock), can be shot down/cause fratricide (missiles have LOW mdc) can be dodged in low numbers (below a volley of 4), attract serious attention ( the blast is visible for miles, the sound of explosions carry far better than weapons fire), the blast radius makes for indiscriminate damage/friendly fire and probably more that don't spring to mind. they are not perfect, but they ARE deadly.

True, though I'm not sure I'd go with low ammunition counts as a disadvantage per say, since that is dictated by the platform the is using it (in Robotech/macross2 lines, there are mecha/robots that can carry 40+ Short Range Missile and still have other weapons available and most of those aren't much bigger than Rifts units.)

Indiscriminate fire is an issue, but that dictates when/how you use them. Burst fire weapons would reasonably encounter that issue to in some form (there is a chance to hit bystanders, at least there used to be in RMB not sure about RUE) since not all rounds hit the target.

[Blue_Lion]

If you don't want to do the record-keeping that comes with combat, go play D&D or a computer game. Or find a way to turn other games (such as Rifts) into computer games, with the GM placing and controlling monsters, NPC's, weather, etc).

It isn't record keeping that is the issue per say as Killer Cyborg said, its that it will slow the game down if the PCs and the GM have to record damage to multiple target areas, or even figure out which target areas may or may not be in the radius.

how long would it take you to mark off 17 locations for a single target? And if we go bigger units with more locations, are all those locations inside the designated blast radius? If not how much time do you want to spend working out what might be in the radius and such? How much time do you want the GM to be doing the record keeping for the NPCs that the PCs harm?

As Killer Cyborg also said, PB is going for more of a cinematic feel over realism. That doesn't means realism doesn't have its place (and there are times the rules allow common sense to prevail, if you know where to look). Personally I find the scale issues of Palladium Combat to be a bigger issue than their handling of AOE attacks.

And PER the RULES examples, AOE attacks don't double dip on targets (ie, AOE doesn't do damage to limbs plus main body of a guy). RMB pg42-4 combat example doesn't have the SAMAS take 90pts plus 45pts to everything else, just 90pts. RUE doesn't have this example AFAIK.

according to Rifts Ultimate Edition missile rules, page 363: everyone and everything in the blast radius suffers half-damage. so a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6md inflicts full damage to the target and EVERYTHING ELSE within the blast takes half the rolled damage.

Well the full quote is "So a grenade or mini-missile that does 5d6 M.D inflicts the full 5d6M.d. to the target it strikes (or lands at the feet of), and everything else within the rest of the blast area suffers half the Mega-Damage rolled for the explosion."

So for AOE attacks, a target is treated as having one location (main body), not multiple locations given the attack can land at the feet of the target and would do full damage. Now the rules, do allow for the damage to be lethal (if you jump on the grenade to act as a shield, RCB1r) and redirected to the legs (if they land at the feet, Megaversally there is an optional rule in 1E RT).

missiles have several disadvantages. they have low ammunition counts, high costs per round (2500 per missile to start), require launchers and or targeting systems that draw attention on sensors (radar or laser lock), can be shot down/cause fratricide (missiles have LOW mdc) can be dodged in low numbers (below a volley of 4), attract serious attention ( the blast is visible for miles, the sound of explosions carry far better than weapons fire), the blast radius makes for indiscriminate damage/friendly fire and probably more that don't spring to mind. they are not perfect, but they ARE deadly.

True, though I'm not sure I'd go with low ammunition counts as a disadvantage per say, since that is dictated by the platform the is using it (in Robotech/macross2 lines, there are mecha/robots that can carry 40+ Short Range Missile and still have other weapons available and most of those aren't much bigger than Rifts units.)

Indiscriminate fire is an issue, but that dictates when/how you use them. Burst fire weapons would reasonably encounter that issue to in some form (there is a chance to hit bystanders, at least there used to be in RMB not sure about RUE) since not all rounds hit the target.

Missiles are not the only plasma explosives. There are plasma rounds for canons, and grenades.

Not to mention a low payload is not as big a issue when you cripple even heavy targets in 1-2 attacks.

I did play a game where the gm had a house rule that explosives did % of damage equal to parts based on a formula he came up with from body armor, (makes sense and was realistic as the smaller parts had less ex poser to the damage force) but that created a lag in game play.

If the person is arguing that only plasma should work that way, that to me is a logical fallacy as a HE would hit just as much as the plasma splash with its. It is not a sustained globe of fire but a napalm style attack burning material pushed out by an explosion. So what is hit by the plasma would also be hit by the pressure wave of an explosion.(it to me stinks of inconsistent ruling by a GM)

( @killer cyborg nice to know I am not the only one that is not always logged in when I return.)

[Nightmartree]

So everybody gets randomly logged out on some occasion. And now i'm wondering has anyone ever actually said how we start up robots? Voice activation, key code, passwords, turn the key, turn multiple keys, start up by command center, animate it with tectonic entities and release it on its allies, press a button. Which ones do we normally use?

well you get the point...I will say anyone who has theirs turned on by a key probably just stumped hackers, and led to the scene of someone with a set of lock picks trying to turn on a robot

[slade2501]

So everybody gets randomly logged out on some occasion. And now i'm wondering has anyone ever actually said how we start up robots? Voice activation, key code, passwords, turn the key, turn multiple keys, start up by command center, animate it with tectonic entities and release it on its allies, press a button. Which ones do we normally use?

well you get the point...I will say anyone who has theirs turned on by a key probably just stumped hackers, and led to the scene of someone with a set of lock picks trying to turn on a robot

this is a great question, and I would say that robotics would have some biometric recognition system (voice, retina, hand-print, etc) to activate the control computers, then a series of manual controls and switches for safety sake. Solid switches prevent accidental activation and or voice command error (they never work well, just ask Alexa and Hey Google).

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

So everybody gets randomly logged out on some occasion. And now i'm wondering has anyone ever actually said how we start up robots? Voice activation, key code, passwords, turn the key, turn multiple keys, start up by command center, animate it with tectonic entities and release it on its allies, press a button. Which ones do we normally use?

well you get the point...I will say anyone who has theirs turned on by a key probably just stumped hackers, and led to the scene of someone with a set of lock picks trying to turn on a robot

this is a great question, and I would say that robotics would have some biometric recognition system (voice, retina, hand-print, etc) to activate the control computers, then a series of manual controls and switches for safety sake. Solid switches prevent accidental activation and or voice command error (they never work well, just ask Alexa and Hey Google).

Yep, definitely a good question, and I think it comes down to what the owner wants.

I could see .mil/.gov robots having a physical key similar to nuclear launch keys, and those with multiple crew members having multiple keys that all have to be turned within X number of seconds of each other. Some kind of authorization code in addition to the key doesn't seem out of line either. It may be as simple as the operator's serial number, which gets uploaded to the "Authorized Users" list prior to a mission. Or it could be a complex series of letters, numbers, and special characters.

Or maybe from the factory it's like the ignition switch for a .mil Humvee. Keypads/codes, physical keys, voice recognition, etc, are all available as part of various upgrade packages.

[Blue_Lion]

So everybody gets randomly logged out on some occasion. And now i'm wondering has anyone ever actually said how we start up robots? Voice activation, key code, passwords, turn the key, turn multiple keys, start up by command center, animate it with tectonic entities and release it on its allies, press a button. Which ones do we normally use?

well you get the point...I will say anyone who has theirs turned on by a key probably just stumped hackers, and led to the scene of someone with a set of lock picks trying to turn on a robot

this is a great question, and I would say that robotics would have some biometric recognition system (voice, retina, hand-print, etc) to activate the control computers, then a series of manual controls and switches for safety sake. Solid switches prevent accidental activation and or voice command error (they never work well, just ask Alexa and Hey Google).

Yep, definitely a good question, and I think it comes down to what the owner wants.

I could see .mil/.gov robots having a physical key similar to nuclear launch keys, and those with multiple crew members having multiple keys that all have to be turned within X number of seconds of each other. Some kind of authorization code in addition to the key doesn't seem out of line either. It may be as simple as the operator's serial number, which gets uploaded to the "Authorized Users" list prior to a mission. Or it could be a complex series of letters, numbers, and special characters.

Or maybe from the factory it's like the ignition switch for a .mil Humvee. Keypads/codes, physical keys, voice recognition, etc, are all available as part of various upgrade packages.

Umm I would say keys would be unlikely.
US army does not use keys ignition for tactical vehicles.
No key is needed for a Abrams or Humvee.
They do use a cable or chain and a padlock on the steering wheel.(the steering wheel lock is used when the vehicle is stored in the rear but not typically in the field.)
I believe the reason is they do not want a vehicle in the field to become stuck because some one lost the key. I have seen lots of locks get cut in the motor pool do to lost keys.

So robots would be unlikely to have a physical key if they are based on tactical military start up.

They may use an electronic cockpit lock for security but I doubt they have physical keys.
I would be a keypad entry, that way it is easy to get new people in and changing it would require less memory than biomedical locks that can be deceived.

[Nightmartree]

So robots would be unlikely to have a physical key if they are based on tactical military start up.

I figured the keys would be either like nuclear launch keys used in the few "mega" robots, or an "operator special".

if you lose the key you can always hot wire it or be roasted alive by your Alien Intelligence Boss but definitely not a common feature.

[Khanibal]

You have to use a crank. It's a rod with a double bend, one North, one South, so it looks like a "Z" except all right angles. Insert it into front of the 'bot and turn it gently until the knobs on the crank just engage the ears of the reactor. Pull once, sharply, with a slight outward angle. This guarantees that the knobs disengage from the ears at the end of the stroke. Otherwise, if it should backfire, it'll drag that crank around fast as lightning, and you'll be down at the Chop Shop looking for a replacement arm.

[Nightmartree]

You have to use a crank. It's a rod with a double bend, one North, one South, so it looks like a "Z" except all right angles. Insert it into front of the 'bot and turn it gently until the knobs on the crank just engage the ears of the reactor. Pull once, sharply, with a slight outward angle. This guarantees that the knobs disengage from the ears at the end of the stroke. Otherwise, if it should backfire, it'll drag that crank around fast as lightning, and you'll be down at the Chop Shop looking for a replacement arm.

The way of the future, starting your robot with a simple addition of kinetic energy!


Irony