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Grammarsalad wrote:KS has said that when he retires, he's going to give creative control to (I'm sorry, I forget his name) that new guy he's now partners with. The guy that's been doing savage RIFTS.

I understand that this guy is part of the reason they aren't announcing new projects except when a manuscript is approved. Here's hoping

dataweaver wrote:Something else I wouldn't mind seeing would be to break Heroes Unlimited up into several games. We kinda sorta have something like that already, with After the Bomb and Ninjas & Superspies being “HU-adjacent”; but I could see, for example:

1. Reworking Ninjas & Superspies as a broader “action heroes” setting which incorporates its own versions of HU's Training Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training). As I said, it already kind of does that: the Martial Artist OCCs cover the Ancient Master exceptionally well; the Espionage Agent OCCs cover the Secret Operative; the Free Agents cover the Super Sleuth; and the Gizmoteers cover the Hardware Power Category. It wouldn't take much to cover the rest, and perhaps more: I could, for example, see something like the Supersoldiers and Ancient Weapons Masters from Powers Unlimited 2 ending up here, as well as First Responders.

dataweaver wrote:2. Doing a sci-fi setting that features Robots, Cyborgs, Genetic Engineering, and Aliens: basically, a reworking of Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy Guide as a stand-alone game that focuses more exclusively on tech: it would not have any rules for anything having to do with Magic, Psionics, or Super Abilities. It's not (necessarily) that the setting excludes these things; it's more that it's “agnostic” about them. See below. I'd also treat this as a kind of replacement for the Robotech RPG by reworking the Robotics rules to be more friendly to Robot Vehicles and Power Armor, as well as to the notion of Variable Configurations.

3. Reworking Heroes Unlimited to be much more focused on Super Abilities, with the default assumption being that every player character has them. No mention of Aliens, Bionics, Hardware, Magic, Psionics, Robotics, or Special Training; and Physical Training gets replaced by a Savant Power Category. Like the last one, it's not that the setting would exclude these things; it just wouldn't address them — again, see below. But there would also be more Power Categories such as most of those found in Powers Unlimited 2.

4. Publishing a “Heroes Unlimited Conversion Guide” that deals with how to incorporate elements of other Palladium Books games into the Heroes Unlimited setting, and vice versa: primarily Ninjas & Superspies, whatever the stand-alone version of Aliens Unlimited ends up being called, After the Bomb, and Beyond the Supernatural. In the latter case, one point to be made would be that Super Abilities are considered to be “Supernatural” for the purpose of BTS 2e's Proximity Equals Power rule; so psychics going up against supervillains typically get the same kind of boost that they'd get when going up against Greater Demons. I could also see it touching upon other gamelines like Palladium Fantasy, Nightbane, and Splicers; though those would be noted as exceptionally rare settings to borrow from. Finally, this book is where I'd put the Immortal Power Category from Powers Unlimited 2.

dataweaver wrote:

Grammarsalad wrote:KS has said that when he retires, he's going to give creative control to (I'm sorry, I forget his name) that new guy he's now partners with. The guy that's been doing savage RIFTS.

I understand that this guy is part of the reason they aren't announcing new projects except when a manuscript is approved. Here's hoping

I wouldn't mind the “third edition” of Heroes Unlimited being done using the Savage Worlds game engine, and in general migrating all of Palladium Books' IP over to that.

Warshield73 wrote:I can see this as a decent setting. Kind of a GI Joe meets James Bond meets basic action movie. Just not sure how much demand there is compared to superheroes, fantasy and Rifts so with a small company like PB this just seems like a setting that won't sell much and will get very little support/supplements.

Warshield73 wrote:The problem with atomizing the rules and characters is that you atomize the setting as well. How do you put out books like Villains unlimited, Century Station and Gramarcy Island if all of the parts are broken into different settings.

What you seem to be looking for is generic...or setting neutral resource books instead of a complete setting but that is just kind of boring. As it is you can just pick and choose what you want from each setting and slap them together. The problem is that the settings aren't truly universal.

Warshield73 wrote:What we need is a core rule book for modern settings that each one has to follow. There can be a few setting specific skills but all the combat attributes and character creation, especially OCC vs Skill Program, would be the same. This way it would be truly seamless to plug and play.

Warshield73 wrote:PBs rules need an update but this is just death of PB just transferring IPs to another company and PB dies which I don't think is what Sean is going to do. Also, Savage Worlds has a few different super hero games.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I can see this as a decent setting. Kind of a GI Joe meets James Bond meets basic action movie. Just not sure how much demand there is compared to superheroes, fantasy and Rifts so with a small company like PB this just seems like a setting that won't sell much and will get very little support/supplements.

There's plenty of audience for it. For example, there's Onyx Path's Trinity Continuum, and Trinity Continuum: Adventure!. The former is set in the present and features larger than life heroes who aren't superhuman; the latter is more or less the same thing, but set in the early 1940s. They're having no trouble making sales.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The problem with atomizing the rules and characters is that you atomize the setting as well. How do you put out books like Villains unlimited, Century Station and Gramarcy Island if all of the parts are broken into different settings.

What you seem to be looking for is generic...or setting neutral resource books instead of a complete setting but that is just kind of boring. As it is you can just pick and choose what you want from each setting and slap them together. The problem is that the settings aren't truly universal.

The problem with not atomizing the rules is that you end up needing a core book that's likely to turn off potential readers due to its sheer size and cost in order to cover all of the rules needed to truly represent the setting. I'm not looking for generic or setting neutral resource books; if I was, I would have said so. What I'm looking for are settings that are more focused on particular concepts. As you say, as things stand you can just pick and choose what you want from each setting and slap them together. This idea wouldn't change that; it would rely on that.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:What we need is a core rule book for modern settings that each one has to follow. There can be a few setting specific skills but all the combat attributes and character creation, especially OCC vs Skill Program, would be the same. This way it would be truly seamless to plug and play.

Now, that's an example of a generic or setting neutral resource book. While I would agree with the idea that the “next editions” of HU, N&S, and BtS should have character creation systems that are highly compatible, seeing as how all three are different versions of the modern world, I don't think that factoring that it into a standalone “core book” which only really comes into its own when you also buy the HU, N&S, and/or BtS sourcebooks for it is the way to go.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:PBs rules need an update but this is just death of PB just transferring IPs to another company and PB dies which I don't think is what Sean is going to do. Also, Savage Worlds has a few different super hero games.

PB would still retain ownership of the IP; it would just be using a licensed game engine instead of the frankly broken house system that it's been using so far. That said, if Sean wants to fix the house system and try again with it, more power to him.

Warshield73 wrote:The ones set in the past (Civil War, Victorian, 1920's or '30's or '40's or even '50's and '60's) would probably be better sellers than modern era, and I would personally love it. The problem is, and you hinted at this, the market is kind of saturated. The people who want these games already have them and in a company dominated by a game like Rifts I just don't see it being big enough to warrant the expenditure of PBs extremely limited manpower.

Warshield73 wrote:Now, I personally wish PB would create a large gallery of modern IPs with all the same core rules. BTS, Nightbane, HU, DR, your action adventure idea, and any other. It would make it a lot easier to add new settings if there was a core rule book that each setting was written around and then you can create period SBs to help GMs run a Victorian DR campaign or a 1930's Nightbane. To me this is the kind organization works better.

Warshield73 wrote:No, it would not be a generic resource book because it would be a core rule book. This would also be a savings for any player or GM that buys more than one setting as it eliminates actual repetitive pages from each book allowing for a lower cost or more setting information.

Yes, it would only be useful if you buy one of the settings but that is sort of like saying you Xbox is only useful if you buy a game, that is sort of the point. Common rules are not the same thing as a generic SB in this context.

Warshield73 wrote:The reason I call what you want a generic SB is that the way you want HU broken up would completely eliminate any connection within the setting. I guess you could have 4 or 5 different villains book and a different city and prison book for each setting but a book of just super powers sounds fairly generic to me.

Warshield73 wrote:I'm sorry I have read this over like 4 times and I don't understand what you want then or how this wouldn't eliminate books like Villans, CS, GI.

If you break HU into 3 to 5 different games then how would you create a coherent setting. Also the cost thing works both ways. First, each setting book would need to have all the character generation, skills and other materials which can often take up half the core setting book. This means you are buying the same rules materials each time.

Warshield73 wrote:Second, If I want to run a HU with everything it has now and I have to buy 4 different books then my costs just went up 30% to 50% and most likely combining them is going to be tougher. I just don't see how you can break these apart without making them inherently less interesting. Especially when you look at comic books, the source material, and they include all of these ideas.

Warshield73 wrote:I think this is where I disagree other fans. Removing things from PB games is FAR easier than adding them. Even in Rifts I eliminate whole groups, OCCs, even regions and the effect on the game is so small it borders on non-existent. But, adding Nightbane to my HU campaign has been a pile of work. Don't get me wrong, this is a strength of PB that you can add these things in but

Warshield73 wrote:Now, if what you want is to leave HU as it is but for PB to create seperate games where it is just super powers, and another where it is PA and robots, and another with psionics, and another with mutant animals than OK I guess but again that seems like a lot of work for very little reward in terms of sales.

Warshield73 wrote:No, PB is a game system not just settings. If they switch everything to Savage or D20 or what ever the system is, for all intents and purposes, dead and the customers who like it are basically gone.

Warshield73 wrote:The system has its flaws but it also has its fans.

Warshield73 wrote:IMO does PB system need an overhaul, yes but I love the fact that PB doesn't create a new money grab...I mean edition every few years.

Warshield73 wrote:The other thing is that new editions, while it might bring in some new customers, always divide a fan base. I was at a convention in Austin right after Savage Worlds Adventure Edition was announced and some of the panels turned into screaming matches. I was told by several people that the next year, after AE came out, was actually worse so if PB does create a new edition, which again I would love them to switch over to a truly universal 2.0, it will cost customers with no guarantee that new ones will exceed or even replace them.

If you somehow doubt this, go into the PFRPG section and look at all the threads that talk about how Fantasy 1e is better than 2e.

Grammarsalad wrote:I like the megaversal system. I think it has it's own charm. I wouldn't want it to be replaced by anything else, but I think a Savage Heroes Unlimited would be swell if it was something that would sell. Just, not as a replacement but something like Savage RIFTS.

Grammarsalad wrote:What about "Dimension Books" for HU, and others? There is a lot of material to work with.

Like, I could totally see a 'Shadow Ops' book with elements from N&S, Nightbane, and BtS. I've always liked that slogan (from a 2 or 3e GURPS Black Ops book): Find the Truth--and kill it.

Not the world of N&S, or BtS, or NB, but it's own thing with elements from each. But, while it is it's own thing, it should be easily compatible with the others, with conversion notes to move certain elements from one setting to the other.

Armageddon Unlimited looks (from the outside) to be something like that, but combining elements from HU, and BtS (or maybe more Nightbane).

Grammarsalad wrote:And I'm sure the folks at PB could come up with more. Creating cool and Interesting settings is what PB excels at, imo

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The ones set in the past (Civil War, Victorian, 1920's or '30's or '40's or even '50's and '60's) would probably be better sellers than modern era, and I would personally love it. The problem is, and you hinted at this, the market is kind of saturated. The people who want these games already have them and in a company dominated by a game like Rifts I just don't see it being big enough to warrant the expenditure of PBs extremely limited manpower.

So if I say that there aren't any other games in the same genre, you'll say that there's no audience for it; but if I say that there are other games in the genre, you say that that means that the market is saturated. Looks like you've got your bases covered: no matter what I say, you can say that PB shouldn't do it. Nice catch-22 you've got going there.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Now, I personally wish PB would create a large gallery of modern IPs with all the same core rules. BTS, Nightbane, HU, DR, your action adventure idea, and any other. It would make it a lot easier to add new settings if there was a core rule book that each setting was written around and then you can create period SBs to help GMs run a Victorian DR campaign or a 1930's Nightbane. To me this is the kind organization works better.

Warshield73 wrote:No, it would not be a generic resource book because it would be a core rule book. This would also be a savings for any player or GM that buys more than one setting as it eliminates actual repetitive pages from each book allowing for a lower cost or more setting information.

Yes, it would only be useful if you buy one of the settings but that is sort of like saying you Xbox is only useful if you buy a game, that is sort of the point. Common rules are not the same thing as a generic SB in this context.

The difference between that and a generic resource book is that you'd be required to buy it to use the other books: you're insisting on a minimum two-book purchase. It only becomes beneficial to the buyer if you assume that they'll be buying at least two of the settings.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The reason I call what you want a generic SB is that the way you want HU broken up would completely eliminate any connection within the setting. I guess you could have 4 or 5 different villains book and a different city and prison book for each setting but a book of just super powers sounds fairly generic to me.

Ah; I see. You think that I'm proposing that HU should just have rules in it. That's not what I'm saying; although given how that's pretty much how the current edition works, I can see where you'd make that mistake. Load it up with as much setting information as you can! All I'm asking is that the setting information be based around the idea of Super Abilities. If you have an Iron Man kind of character, he's not Robotics; he's a Super-Inventor. And his armor isn't built using the Robotics rules; it's built as an armor-like invention that grants Super-Abilities to the wearer. That sort of thing. You can still have supplements like Gramarcy Island, Villains Unlimited, and so on; it's just that all of the NPCs in the book would either be ordinary people or would have Super Abilities.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I'm sorry I have read this over like 4 times and I don't understand what you want then or how this wouldn't eliminate books like Villans, CS, GI.

If you break HU into 3 to 5 different games then how would you create a coherent setting. Also the cost thing works both ways. First, each setting book would need to have all the character generation, skills and other materials which can often take up half the core setting book. This means you are buying the same rules materials each time.

You're still thinking of it as five books for one setting. I'm thinking of it as five books for five settings: After the Bomb, Aliens Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited, and Ninjas & Superspies (or whatever it ends up being called).

And the fact that character creation, skills, and other rules material that's not specific to the setting in question can take up half of the book is part of why I say that Palladium's house system is broken. The core rules should be much simpler than that. Heck, even GURPS, monster of a game that it is, was able to condense its rules down to 32 pages (see “GURPS Lite”) and remain playable. If Palladium can't do that, then its rules are bloated.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Second, If I want to run a HU with everything it has now and I have to buy 4 different books then my costs just went up 30% to 50% and most likely combining them is going to be tougher. I just don't see how you can break these apart without making them inherently less interesting. Especially when you look at comic books, the source material, and they include all of these ideas.

Combining them would be no tougher than what we currently have. And yes, out would involve paying more; but you'd be getting more, too: you wouldn't be getting “five pieces of one setting”; you'd be getting “five settings that can enrich each other”. It's only a problem if you're not interested in the settings that the other books feature.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I think this is where I disagree other fans. Removing things from PB games is FAR easier than adding them. Even in Rifts I eliminate whole groups, OCCs, even regions and the effect on the game is so small it borders on non-existent. But, adding Nightbane to my HU campaign has been a pile of work. Don't get me wrong, this is a strength of PB that you can add these things in but

For now, that business with adding Nightbane to Heroes Unlimited is one reason why I was suggesting a Conversion Book for HU. In the longer run, is another part of why I say that Palladium's in-house system is broken: there are enough differences between the various games to cause problems when combining them. If PB is going to continue to use its house system, I'd like them to work up a system reference document that they can use to make sure that all of the games they produce are working in a consistent manner. And yes, if they want to release it to the public, or even to try selling it, go for it! I just don't think that it should be a mandatory purchase in order to use any of their games. Because a book of just rules is bland and boring, even if those rules are essential.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:Now, if what you want is to leave HU as it is but for PB to create seperate games where it is just super powers, and another where it is PA and robots, and another with psionics, and another with mutant animals than OK I guess but again that seems like a lot of work for very little reward in terms of sales.

You make it sound like PB doesn't already have games featuring mutant animals (After the Bomb), super-skilled “normals” (Ninjas & Superspies), psionics (Beyond the Supernatural), and robotics (okay, I'll give you that one; but only because PB lost the Robotech license; and Aliens Unlimited is already 9/10 of the way to providing a replacement for that which PB owns outright). With those games already out there, all you need to do is to revise these games to a consistent rules standard to minimize the friction when using them together, and to tighten up the rules and make them easier to learn and use for those who don't have decades of experience with them.

Heck, Palladium even has a kitchen sink setting: Rifts.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:No, PB is a game system not just settings. If they switch everything to Savage or D20 or what ever the system is, for all intents and purposes, dead and the customers who like it are basically gone.

As things stand, the PB House system is already dead. Either jettison it, or rewrite it.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The system has its flaws but it also has its fans.

And most of those fans are my age, and are mainly fans of it because they already know it.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:IMO does PB system need an overhaul, yes but I love the fact that PB doesn't create a new money grab...I mean edition every few years.

Yeah; you've said that before. But there's no way to overhaul the rules without new editions.

dataweaver wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The other thing is that new editions, while it might bring in some new customers, always divide a fan base. I was at a convention in Austin right after Savage Worlds Adventure Edition was announced and some of the panels turned into screaming matches. I was told by several people that the next year, after AE came out, was actually worse so if PB does create a new edition, which again I would love them to switch over to a truly universal 2.0, it will cost customers with no guarantee that new ones will exceed or even replace them.

If you somehow doubt this, go into the PFRPG section and look at all the threads that talk about how Fantasy 1e is better than 2e.

Oh, I'm very well aware of edition wars. But again, you can't overall the rules without new editions that use the overhauled rules. And a big part of the reason why edition wars happen is because existing fans who have become comfortable with the rules as they are don't like being moved out of their comfort zone: even when the new rules are objectively better than the old rules, you'll have fans of the old rules grumbling about how the new edition ruined their game.

dataweaver wrote:Mind you, I've been on both sides of this. There have been games that I've been a fan of that changed their rules in a new edition; sometimes I liked the changes and adopted them, sometimes I didn't. And there are games where I wouldn't touch them until a new edition came out that fixed problems that the old edition had. I know of what I speak.

Bottom line: it is inconsistent to say that the rules need an overhaul but that you don't want them to change.

dataweaver wrote:First: I never advocated creating four new settings: if you take another look at what I did say, you'll see that I was describing “breaking it up” among 5 existing settings: AU, AtB, BtS, HU, and N&S.

Yes, I know that in its current form AU is a pair of supplements for HU; it doesn't have to be, though: it could be retooled as a stand-alone game. And you could keep the vast majority of it even without magic, psionics, or super abilities.

AtB was created by taking the work that had been done toward creating TMNT 2e and reworking it to go with the AtB alternate setting that had been created for TMNT 1e. I know; I was around when it happened. That doesn't make it any less useful as a stand-alone game; in fact, its origin as TMNT 2e makes it more suitable for integration into modern Earth settings than most games that aren't modern Earth settings.

And yes, I know that BtS psychics are weak compared to HU unless facing “supernatural” threats; but that's why I suggested that if a BtS psychic finds himself of HU Earth, his powers should react to superhumans as if they were supernatural: 4× to 6× ISP for the encounter. And if you don't think it's enough to do that only when superhumans are around, just say that HU Earth's ambient supernatural levels are higher than BtS Earth's ambient levels, and that psychics on HU operate at a minimum of a ×4 ISP Multiplier.

And N&S shows that modern action settings have an audience among the PB fans; it did well enough to get a second edition. I'm just saying to augment it a bit more in terms of choices. And have you done a comparison between N&S and the Special Training characters from HU? The former are very much up to the task of keeping up with the latter.

Again, I'm not suggesting four brand new alternate settings; I'm suggesting these already existing alternate settings.

---

Second: I said that I wouldn't mind if PB were to convert everything over to the Savage Worlds game engine going forward. I didn't say that that's the only option I'd consider. I specifically said that if Sean wants to revive the PB house system, more power to him. But I repeat: as the PB house system exists right now, it's basically dead: the only people using it are, for the most part, the ones who have been using it for decades. It's not drawing in new fans in any significant numbers; and it is repelling fans who would jump at PB's settings if not for the game engine attached to them. To the extent that PB is still alive, it's despite the house system, not because of it. That's why I said jettison it or fix it. I personally don't care which, as long as the game engine doesn't stay as it is.

Kendragon333 wrote:Thorinteague, that is fascinating and all, but you are not answering the question that the OP asked.

NMI wrote:Technically, a new edition of HU would become the 4th edition.
There are two editions that are completely different with the blue cover - One is unrevised and uses the original PB ruleset and the second says Revised on the cover and uses what we know as the megaversal system. Then there is the white cover which is for all intents and purposes, is the 3rd edition.

Kendragon333 wrote:Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

dataweaver wrote:Armageddon Unlimited covers divine and infernal power sources: demon hunters, heroic hellions, several new options for Mystically Bestowed powers, and some new Enchanted Weapon and Enchanted Object options. Frankly, it would have been a good place to introduce Priests as a Power Category, treating them as a divine or infernal variant on Mystic Study.

I could see a “Mystics Unlimited”, which deals with the Doctor Strange/Zatanna concepts as well as psionics and something like the Rifts Mystic, who incorporates both magic and psionics.

Maybe a Japan Unlimited sourcebook which retools Heroes Unlimited to deal with the Super Sentai, Magical Girls, Giant Robots, and Ninja Warriors that are so famous in Japanese culture.

I could get behind a Robots Unlimited; although there's a reason why robots get some coverage in Hardware Unlimited. I've got a thread in the Robotech forum (“A new Mecha game”, or something to that effect) where I detail some things I'd like to see see Palladium Books address in terms of a book dedicated to robotics — which, keep in mind, includes robot vehicles and power armor, not just drones and AIs. I don't particularly care if it's done as a standalone game, as a part of Mechanoid Space, as a Rifts Dimension Book, or as a supplement for Heroes Unlimited; though I recognize that each would emphasize different parts of what I'd like to see.

Finally, how about some sort of Upgrades Unlimited book, dealing with Bionics and Experiments as its core and branching out from there?

dataweaver wrote:Frankly, while I'm glad that HU had such a diverse set of Power Categories, I find it somewhat ironic that only two of them primarily feature characters with honest to goodness Super Abilities (Experiments and Mutants), and only two of the others include Super Abilities as options (Aliens and Magic). All of the others — the Bionics, Hardware, Physical Training, Psionics, Robotics, and Special Training — are each basically just doing their own thing.

dataweaver wrote:Replace the existing Power Categories in the core book with Power Categories organized around types of Super Abilities, similar to how PCCs are set up in Beyond the Supernatural or Psyscape. Things like the Augment (i.e., the aforementioned Natural/Genius, with Super Abilities that mostly represent enhancements of innate human abilities), the Elemental (various Control abilities, starting with but not restricted to Control Elemental Forces), the Morph (shapeshifting, elasticity, size-changing, invisibility, phasing, etc.; if the character's powers center around altering her own body, she's a Morph), the Maker (who can incorporate powers into items), and the Meta (whose powers involve messing with other people's powers: negation, theft, copying, or boosting others' Super Abilities)

dataweaver wrote:1. Reworking Ninjas & Superspies as a broader “action heroes” setting which incorporates its own versions of HU's Training Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training). As I said, it already kind of does that: the Martial Artist OCCs cover the Ancient Master exceptionally well; the Espionage Agent OCCs cover the Secret Operative; the Free Agents cover the Super Sleuth; and the Gizmoteers cover the Hardware Power Category. It wouldn't take much to cover the rest, and perhaps more: I could, for example, see something like the Supersoldiers and Ancient Weapons Masters from Powers Unlimited 2 ending up here, as well as First Responders.

Warshield73 wrote:What you seem to be looking for is generic...or setting neutral resource books instead of a complete setting but that is just kind of boring. As it is you can just pick and choose what you want from each setting and slap them together.

dataweaver wrote:As things stand, the PB House system is already dead. Either jettison it, or rewrite it.

NMI wrote:

NMI wrote:Technically, a new edition of HU would become the 4th edition.
There are two editions that are completely different with the blue cover - One is unrevised and uses the original PB ruleset and the second says Revised on the cover and uses what we know as the megaversal system. Then there is the white cover which is for all intents and purposes, is the 3rd edition.

Repeating myself for those who may have missed this.

rogerd1 wrote:

Kendragon333 wrote:Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

But that is what should be happening, same as every other system out there.

Basically it would be better with a brand new edition, with all powers under one roof. So no matter the power source, it should cost the same. Then have a way to tier the power levels, same as in Savage Worlds, with Heavy (or MDC), and with Savage Battlelords now has gone one higher with Super Heavy. Which is in many ways similar to the old star Wars d6 stuff, with Scaling.

Then in further editions, show how to bespoke those powers for slightly different settings, e.g. M&M 3e Supernatural Handbook, or M&M 2e Books of Magic.

dataweaver wrote:Armageddon Unlimited covers divine and infernal power sources: demon hunters, heroic hellions, several new options for Mystically Bestowed powers, and some new Enchanted Weapon and Enchanted Object options. Frankly, it would have been a good place to introduce Priests as a Power Category, treating them as a divine or infernal variant on Mystic Study.

I could see a “Mystics Unlimited”, which deals with the Doctor Strange/Zatanna concepts as well as psionics and something like the Rifts Mystic, who incorporates both magic and psionics.

Maybe a Japan Unlimited sourcebook which retools Heroes Unlimited to deal with the Super Sentai, Magical Girls, Giant Robots, and Ninja Warriors that are so famous in Japanese culture.

I could get behind a Robots Unlimited; although there's a reason why robots get some coverage in Hardware Unlimited. I've got a thread in the Robotech forum (“A new Mecha game”, or something to that effect) where I detail some things I'd like to see see Palladium Books address in terms of a book dedicated to robotics — which, keep in mind, includes robot vehicles and power armor, not just drones and AIs. I don't particularly care if it's done as a standalone game, as a part of Mechanoid Space, as a Rifts Dimension Book, or as a supplement for Heroes Unlimited; though I recognize that each would emphasize different parts of what I'd like to see.

Finally, how about some sort of Upgrades Unlimited book, dealing with Bionics and Experiments as its core and branching out from there?

This is an amazing idea, having each mini-supplement flesh out alternatives.
It would also allow say a Nightbane to travel to a superhero setting and be on an even keel with everyone there.

dataweaver wrote:Frankly, while I'm glad that HU had such a diverse set of Power Categories, I find it somewhat ironic that only two of them primarily feature characters with honest to goodness Super Abilities (Experiments and Mutants), and only two of the others include Super Abilities as options (Aliens and Magic). All of the others — the Bionics, Hardware, Physical Training, Psionics, Robotics, and Special Training — are each basically just doing their own thing.

I think Physical and Special Training could be combined under one banner of Training. In that, it should be what happens when your fantasy character, or modern character reaches level 20 / tier 5.

dataweaver wrote:Replace the existing Power Categories in the core book with Power Categories organized around types of Super Abilities, similar to how PCCs are set up in Beyond the Supernatural or Psyscape. Things like the Augment (i.e., the aforementioned Natural/Genius, with Super Abilities that mostly represent enhancements of innate human abilities), the Elemental (various Control abilities, starting with but not restricted to Control Elemental Forces), the Morph (shapeshifting, elasticity, size-changing, invisibility, phasing, etc.; if the character's powers center around altering her own body, she's a Morph), the Maker (who can incorporate powers into items), and the Meta (whose powers involve messing with other people's powers: negation, theft, copying, or boosting others' Super Abilities)

Mythic D6 has Movement Power, Sensing Powers etc all under one roof, so to speak..

dataweaver wrote:1. Reworking Ninjas & Superspies as a broader “action heroes” setting which incorporates its own versions of HU's Training Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training). As I said, it already kind of does that: the Martial Artist OCCs cover the Ancient Master exceptionally well; the Espionage Agent OCCs cover the Secret Operative; the Free Agents cover the Super Sleuth; and the Gizmoteers cover the Hardware Power Category. It wouldn't take much to cover the rest, and perhaps more: I could, for example, see something like the Supersoldiers and Ancient Weapons Masters from Powers Unlimited 2 ending up here, as well as First Responders.

I agree, you want to be able to have a martial artist, and the bionic man, working alongside a Spy or SpecOp character.

Warshield73 wrote:What you seem to be looking for is generic...or setting neutral resource books instead of a complete setting but that is just kind of boring. As it is you can just pick and choose what you want from each setting and slap them together.

The basic rules should cover all settings, equally well. Then have setting specific books in which some aspects would be tweaked, same as in Savage Worlds. And look at all the settings for Savage Worlds. Another example is DnD 5e, with all the settings with tweaked rules for each one.

dataweaver wrote:As things stand, the PB House system is already dead. Either jettison it, or rewrite it.

I agree. It has been dead for many years, sadly.

Sambot wrote:I agree the game should be expanding and improving. I disagree that we need a new edition every couple of years. Doing so takes time away from creating new things. It also annoys the players and fractures the fan base. I know there's players who prefer the original edition over the current one. That goes for every game. Some players will prefer to stick with one edition instead of continuing on. Some players even quit the game all together. I dropped Star Wars when it went to D20.

Sambot wrote:Could we use books that compile things from various books? Sure. They won't all fit in one book though. There's just too many things. And hopefully there'd always be something new coming out so we'd just need another compilation later. Also, not every game uses the same scale. For example, Hereos doesn't use MDC. Some players like that. Forcing MDC into Heroes will drive those players away. For those who want MDC, there'd conversion rules for that. And if you want heavier there's always Giga Damage from The Rifter 9 1/2.

That's what conversion notes are for.

Sambot wrote:Putting Nightbane in a different game is where a conversion book would help. We really need a new conversion book.

Sambot wrote:I don't think characters should have to get to level 20 before they can start training. There'd 5 year olds studying martial arts. People get specialized training out of high school and college. If they had to wait to level 20, everyone's character would start off everyday person and stay that way for ages. Playing everyday people can be fun but you shouldn't be forced to play one for however long it takes to be able change your character class to the one you wanted to play in the first place. Just start with that class.

Sambot wrote:What happens when a character blurs the lines and has multiple abilities? Doctor Reed would be a Natual/Genuis and a Morph. Johnny Storm and Sue Storm would be morphs and elementals. Ben Grimm would be a mutant and physical training.

Sambot wrote:Ninja's & Superspies does have bionics and cybernetics. There's also nothing stopping you from using Robotics Characters in N&S or N&S characters in HU.

Sambot wrote:I wouldn't mind books with different eras/settings but the current books do allow me o do that.

Sambot wrote:I don't think so. It's been a while since I could get to a game store but the last time I was there, I saw Palladium Books. I didn't see any Savage Worlds and it's been available for 20 years.

rogerd1 wrote:

Sambot wrote:I agree the game should be expanding and improving. I disagree that we need a new edition every couple of years. Doing so takes time away from creating new things. It also annoys the players and fractures the fan base. I know there's players who prefer the original edition over the current one. That goes for every game. Some players will prefer to stick with one edition instead of continuing on. Some players even quit the game all together. I dropped Star Wars when it went to D20.

A new edition every ten years would suffice, that is about true for Pathfinder, DnD, 13th Age, Fantasy Age (I believe this is under the ten years). But you get the point. It gives plenty of time to improve the system again, and find tweaks etc. Not the least of which some brainbox will have found hacks for the system too, which could be used as well.

But, yes, we absolutely need new settings. I myself have written half a dozen settings which could be compatible with a number of systems, wouldn't matter which. Most measure at about 15 pages, and I so need to playtest them. I get the d20 frustration with Star Wars, I am told one version of it is hilariously well balanced, though I cannot recall which one. There is also a thread of rpg.net about D6 Star Wars at the moment.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads ... d6.907881/

Sambot wrote:Could we use books that compile things from various books? Sure. They won't all fit in one book though. There's just too many things. And hopefully there'd always be something new coming out so we'd just need another compilation later. Also, not every game uses the same scale. For example, Hereos doesn't use MDC. Some players like that. Forcing MDC into Heroes will drive those players away. For those who want MDC, there'd conversion rules for that. And if you want heavier there's always Giga Damage from The Rifter 9 1/2.

That's what conversion notes are for.

Okay there are a few flaws here.
Firstly have a basic book, like SWADE, then a powers book as well. So if they wanted to bespoke characters more, as you have mentioned earlier with Hardware Unlimited, Mystic Unlimited etc, that would be an amazing thing. However, Heroes, can and do use MDC, or more, in comics. We see this frequently and often.

Even Palladium does so with Skraypers setting for Rifts.

What there needs to be is a tiering or toggle system, such that any MDC powers are purchased, and the cost paid for at chargen. I keep mentioning SWADE, and with good reason. I could get a character from Savage Pathfinder, and lob them into Savage Rifts, and they would do just fine. Same should be the case for heroes, and indeed it is with SWADE.

You want an MDC power, sure, fine, GM consent required of course, but it would cost extra at chargen. But in a modern setting, fighting the military in some form is a time honoured tradition. And a Supers setting should embrace this, with lower level Street level, and higher levels should be able to pick this.

I get people's frustration with Meg-Damage, I started a thread on it in Rifts. The idea is excellent, but continued execution was utterly terrible. With some tweaking it could really work. But the game must be at that level.

Sambot wrote:Putting Nightbane in a different game is where a conversion book would help. We really need a new conversion book.

Just new rules.

Sambot wrote:I don't think characters should have to get to level 20 before they can start training. There'd 5 year olds studying martial arts. People get specialized training out of high school and college. If they had to wait to level 20, everyone's character would start off everyday person and stay that way for ages. Playing everyday people can be fun but you shouldn't be forced to play one for however long it takes to be able change your character class to the one you wanted to play in the first place. Just start with that class.

What I mean is that to transition from a Fantasy Soldier to say a HU Weapons Master, they would ideally need to be around level 20. Sure, maybe switch a bit earlier....

Sambot wrote:What happens when a character blurs the lines and has multiple abilities? Doctor Reed would be a Natual/Genuis and a Morph. Johnny Storm and Sue Storm would be morphs and elementals. Ben Grimm would be a mutant and physical training.

Could a character have multiple abilities in D6, absolutely.

Ben Grimm would absolutely not be Physical Training. Not a chance in hell. He just has Defensive Powers (Body Armour), coupled with Physical Powers o(Life Support, and Enhancement). Johnny Storm would have Physical Powers (Elemental Sheath, Ranged Attack), Movement (Flight).

So it is really quite easy to do.

Sambot wrote:Ninja's & Superspies does have bionics and cybernetics. There's also nothing stopping you from using Robotics Characters in N&S or N&S characters in HU.

And it is all sooooo dated.

Sambot wrote:I wouldn't mind books with different eras/settings but the current books do allow me o do that.

There should be plenty of settings, and there are not because PB needs to release new core books, not the mishmash rubbish from 30 years ago, with copy-pasta, and different fonts. It was fine in the day, now it is lazy!

Sambot wrote:I don't think so. It's been a while since I could get to a game store but the last time I was there, I saw Palladium Books. I didn't see any Savage Worlds and it's been available for 20 years.

Palladium Books is bleeding out, and has been for years!
If it wasn't for Savage Rifts I am not sure the company would still be here.

rogerd1 wrote:A new edition every ten years would suffice, that is about true for Pathfinder, DnD, 13th Age, Fantasy Age (I believe this is under the ten years). But you get the point. It gives plenty of time to improve the system again, and find tweaks etc. Not the least of which some brainbox will have found hacks for the system too, which could be used as well.

But, yes, we absolutely need new settings. I myself have written half a dozen settings which could be compatible with a number of systems, wouldn't matter which. Most measure at about 15 pages, and I so need to playtest them. I get the d20 frustration with Star Wars, I am told one version of it is hilariously well balanced, though I cannot recall which one. There is also a thread of rpg.net about D6 Star Wars at the moment.

Sambot wrote:If you're just revising the rules, putting in errata and such, sure. If you're wanting a completely new rule system, then no. It isn't just the rule book you'd be replacing but every sourcebook after it.

Sambot wrote:SWADE?

Sambot wrote:If, as GM, you want to use Skrapyers in Heroes or just make Heroes MDC go for it. Not everyone likes MDC though. They shouldn't be forced to use it. MDC should remain an option, not be the rule.

We can put Rifts Characters into Heroes Unlimited or visa versus.

Sambot wrote:Supers can and do fight the military. The ones who do are called Super Villains.

Sambot wrote:It sounds like you want to create super heroes they way one does mutant animals. If that's what you want, go ahead but I don't. I don't particularly care for the BIO-E system. Some enjoy rolling up random mutant animals, and that's fine. I think it's okay NPCs. But if I want to play a walking talking turtle, I should be able to play a walking talking turtle. I shouldn't have to roll and play something else.

Sambot wrote:I don't see how that would work. There's Nightbane, Palladium, Rifts, Splicers, System Failure, Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, Dead Reign and more. Each of those are separate games with their own unique features. One book would have to cover all those games. That is overly complicated and unnecessary. One shouldn't have to have rules to create Nightbane if playing in a world that doesn't have Nightbane. However, if one wants to include Nightbane, then there should be a conversion available to do that. It shouldn't be in a main book though as it's optional. It'd take up too much space and clutter up the book.

Sambot wrote:Ben was also a Football player. As an athlete he'd be a Physical Training Character.

Sambot wrote:I don't think we need multiple rule books to have multiple settings. If we have an alternate setting for BtS, BtS is the main book. The alternate setting book should cover the changes needed to play in that alternate setting. To include all the rules from BtS in the alternate setting book would be redundant. It would also take away space that could be used to enrich the alternate setting.

Sambot wrote:Palladium Books bleeding out is less to do with the game system and more to do with the lack of new products on the shelves.

Sambot wrote:I'd never heard of Savage Worlds until Savage Rifts was mentioned in an issue of the Rifter. I've also never seen a Savage Worlds book on the shelves and it started in 2003. Savage Rifts covers how much of Rifts and just Rifts? I don't think it's keeping Palladium going. Rifts started in 1990. If it was so terrible, it wouldn't have lasted for there to be a Savage Rifts. In fact, Palladium Books started in 1981. If their system was so terrible they wouldn't have lasted long enough to create Rifts. So no, Savage Rifts isn't keeping Palladium alive.

Kendragon333 wrote:Unfortunately Palladium is such a small company that constantly putting out new editions is not feasible. They simply don't have the staff to do that.

rogerd1 wrote:

Kendragon333 wrote:Unfortunately Palladium is such a small company that constantly putting out new editions is not feasible. They simply don't have the staff to do that.

Every ten years would work quite honestly. That seems to be about right for DnD. Pathfinder segging from 1e to 2e may be longer....not sure.

Kendragon333 wrote:Just because it is right for D&D does not automatically make it right for Palladium. You do not cite examples of Palladium's history of doing such, so there is no proof of your assertion. I do not believe Palladium capable of it. We might have to agree to disagree.

rogerd1 wrote:

Kendragon333 wrote:Just because it is right for D&D does not automatically make it right for Palladium. You do not cite examples of Palladium's history of doing such, so there is no proof of your assertion. I do not believe Palladium capable of it. We might have to agree to disagree.

Considering their sales will be well below most of the other known games, like say 13th Age, which are KS a 2e by the way. Their are innumerable KS for 3PP DnD 5e content, with their own world specific setting rules. Same for Savage Worlds. Modern Age while not have many settings for it, has issued a Multiverse book guide to help players create worlds and such.

Guess what Palladium has not done?

One core book with rules, or a meta setting. Instead splitting across multiple books.

Kendragon333 wrote:That's because Palladium chooses to break their games up among several books and update power categories by releasing new books instead of releasing a completely new edition.

Kendragon333 wrote:When they do release new editions, they cut and paste stuff from the old editions instead of writing completely new material.

Which is incredibly lazy.

Kendragon333 wrote:My take on it is thus that they should fix the current edition instead of replacing it with yet another badly written version.

rogerd1 wrote:

Sambot wrote:If you're just revising the rules, putting in errata and such, sure. If you're wanting a completely new rule system, then no. It isn't just the rule book you'd be replacing but every sourcebook after it.

This is actually not quite correct, but I can understand why you would think such. In DnD, that is what they have done, but not always the case. There is such a thing as backwards compatibility, a good example of that is 13th Age 2e.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/13th-age.908857/post-24737607

Example of thread.

So no, all sourcebooks would not need replacing. See below referencing SWADE.

[quote="Sambot"]SWADE?[/quote]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186210/Savage-Rifts-The-Tomorrow-Legion-Players-Guide-SWADE-Edition

Latest iteration of Savage Worlds, and in fact a prime example of updated rules that do not require brand new sourcebooks. So just because the rules have changed, and been updated, various updates to older settings have been created but they are usually around 5-10 pages.

Sambot wrote:If, as GM, you want to use Skrapyers in Heroes or just make Heroes MDC go for it. Not everyone likes MDC though. They shouldn't be forced to use it. MDC should remain an option, not be the rule.

We can put Rifts Characters into Heroes Unlimited or visa versus.

You are missing the point here.
You can add MDC at chargen, same as Savage Worlds does.

Sambot wrote:Supers can and do fight the military. The ones who do are called Super Villains.

Super Heroes fight the military too.

Sambot wrote:It sounds like you want to create super heroes they way one does mutant animals. If that's what you want, go ahead but I don't. I don't particularly care for the BIO-E system. Some enjoy rolling up random mutant animals, and that's fine. I think it's okay NPCs. But if I want to play a walking talking turtle, I should be able to play a walking talking turtle. I shouldn't have to roll and play something else.

It is just a point buy system, something a lot of rpg's are embracing.
It is fast, and easy. Savage Worlds, M&M, Prowlers and Paragons, Omni, Tri-Stat - the list goes on.

Sambot wrote:I don't see how that would work. There's Nightbane, Palladium, Rifts, Splicers, System Failure, Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, Dead Reign and more. Each of those are separate games with their own unique features. One book would have to cover all those games. That is overly complicated and unnecessary. One shouldn't have to have rules to create Nightbane if playing in a world that doesn't have Nightbane. However, if one wants to include Nightbane, then there should be a conversion available to do that. It shouldn't be in a main book though as it's optional. It'd take up too much space and clutter up the book.

This is wrong again, at its very core.
Basic SWADE is the generic system, then each setting book would have slight alterations to add flavour for that setting.

DnD 5e, is a prime example of with 3PP
Savage Worlds works this way too.

Sambot wrote:Ben was also a Football player. As an athlete he'd be a Physical Training Character.

No, he wouldn't not in Heroes Unlimited.
He would have Athletics skills, and then be have various Major Superpowers.

Sambot wrote:I don't think we need multiple rule books to have multiple settings. If we have an alternate setting for BtS, BtS is the main book. The alternate setting book should cover the changes needed to play in that alternate setting. To include all the rules from BtS in the alternate setting book would be redundant. It would also take away space that could be used to enrich the alternate setting.

The point is one main rule book the basic game, and another for a Supers. Then every book after that is relevant, with tailored rules for each setting.

Sambot wrote:Palladium Books bleeding out is less to do with the game system and more to do with the lack of new products on the shelves.

That is only partially true. The main issue is a lack of new streamlined rules, such that players / GM's do not want to have to buy numerous books to get access to simple rules! One book should cover basic, and another supers. It needs to attract the younger generation, and bring them in.

What would they rather play, simple streamlined rules in Dnd 5e.

Sambot wrote:I'd never heard of Savage Worlds until Savage Rifts was mentioned in an issue of the Rifter. I've also never seen a Savage Worlds book on the shelves and it started in 2003. Savage Rifts covers how much of Rifts and just Rifts? I don't think it's keeping Palladium going. Rifts started in 1990. If it was so terrible, it wouldn't have lasted for there to be a Savage Rifts. In fact, Palladium Books started in 1981. If their system was so terrible they wouldn't have lasted long enough to create Rifts. So no, Savage Rifts isn't keeping Palladium alive.

Well it doesn't really produce any new books, and many of them that are promised at extremely late, or they are vapourware! So not sure where you think the revenue is coming from?

Top rpg is DnD 5e, prior to the issues with the OGL. Now the 3PP are fighting back with things like the ORC OGL for example. So if PB want to sell more they need in on that action ASAP, and get their own SRD out. I mean Chaosium are doing the same with their updated Big Gold Book, which has been announced.

Kendragon333 wrote:Unfortunately Palladium is such a small company that constantly putting out new editions is not feasible. They simply don't have the staff to do that.

Every ten years would work quite honestly. That seems to be about right for DnD. Pathfinder segging from 1e to 2e may be longer....not sure.

Sambot wrote:Palladium Books is backwards compatible. Mostly. The only backwards compatibility problem I've come up against is not having the original skills lists available. What does Radiation Technology do?

And how much of the new rule book will be dedicated to converting the old system? And when will it stop? If there's a new system every ten years, and Palladium's forty years old, that'd be four different game systems. Will the latest book have conversions for each of the previous systems or just the one before it? If I have a first edition sourcebook, will I need four rule books to convert it to the current system? Why go through all that?

Sambot wrote:And when will it stop?

Sambot wrote:So? Palladium is backwards compatible.

Sambot wrote:If you want to play Rifts in Savage Worlds, you've got to buy the sourcebook.

Sambot wrote:Why should we have to?

Sambot wrote:Palladium has what, 13 or more games. At 5-10 pages each that's 65-130 pages or more just for the basic settings. Specific setting, like Russia, England, Australia, etc. would be another 5-10 pages each. You're looking at over 300 pages just to update settings. Where would the rules be?

Sambot wrote:Sometimes, but I don't think the military would call them Heroes. And the point was, we can do that now.

Sambot wrote:Yeah, I never found those things easy. In fact, I've found them to be headache inducing.

Sambot wrote:Basically, you're just taking the rules and making a book out of them. And then each setting would still need a rule book of it's own to cover the alterations. So if I wanted to play Heroes Unlimited, I'd have to have the basic rule book and then the Heroes Unlimited sourcebook. Why? It's an unnecessary book when I can just have Heroes Unlimited and play.

Sambot wrote:Sure he would. He could be built as a Physical Training Character. He could be a normal person who was Mutated and received Super Powers. He totally fits in HU.

Heroes Unlimited wrote:page 187
are those who fall under the category of Physical Training. Super-athletes and unorthodox martial artists who have honed their natural, physical bodies into finely tuned fighting machines.

Sambot wrote:Why have the extra step? We already have rules that are tailored for each game, which are compatible with the others. Why have an extra book?

Sambot wrote:If you don't want extra books, why are you advocating doing just that? Players would need two books to play Heroes Unlimited. Right now they just need one.

Sambot wrote:I've heard complaints about streamlined rules. They're too blah, and too abstract. They're basically aimed towards the instant gratification crowd.

Sambot wrote:Not getting new books out is a problem with Kevin, not the game system.

Sambot wrote:Not having more goes back to Kevin and his need to control though.

Sambot wrote:If the system wasn't good, it would have died out a long time ago.

Sambot wrote:I don't know if DnD is top because 5e was good or because other publishers would produce products for older editions.

Sambot wrote:Personally, I've haven't heard good things about 5e. Mostly people prefer older or alternative versions.

Sambot wrote:I don't know what SRD or Chaosium are. I do agree that Palladium needs to have more products

Sambot wrote:And then he'd have to redo all the old books so they're compatible.

Sambot wrote:Not really. That isn't new game books but new game systems. Creating a new game system takes a lot of time. When would Kevin have time to do that?

Sambot wrote:DnD can do it because it's owned by massive companies that can hire lots of people do create the new system while publishing new books for the current system. (Are new books for DnD coming out besides GM and Players guides? Those are the only ones I've seen in the store.) Kevin can't do that. He has a hard time getting new products out now. It wouldn't be worth it for him to be constantly restarting every few years. And a lot of players don't like constant new editions either.