ShadowLogan wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:There's no guarantee of anything; you play the odds.
I agree, however the odds in this case favor guns as the more likely weapon to be encountered. There are over x800 assorted missile systems in the game, just in lasers there are over x845 weapon systems in the game (factor in other types like Rail Guns, Particle Beams, Ion Weapons, Plasma Weapons, etc which would be another ~1,600 examples between them) and a missile attack is not the most likely to be encountered it will be a non-missile weapon (~75% of the time, now that is casting a wide net but it is reasonable for a generic scenario).
Mosquito bites are more common than bear bites, but that doesn't mean that a hiker who carries both bug spray and bear spray does NOT have an advantage over a hiker with only bug spray.
I describe the numbers as over, because I have an incomplete Rifts Library. Nor do these numbers make a distinction between man-portable and vehicle systems, though grenades are considered separate from missiles (missiles include Cruise and Torpedo). And I do maintain a DB for mark-up sheets that is pretty complete form available books.
I appreciate your thoroughness.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Plasma missiles are more expensive than frag or explosive
They also have difference in various performance metrics, all of which IMHO makes it unlikely that a good representation of the value may not be present if you only consider cost. At a damage level, a HE Mini Missile does 1/2 the damage of a Plasma Missile for 1/2 the cost for example (SB1o).
Then it becomes about whether it's more important to fire at multiple targets, or to kill a lower number of targets.
If you're mostly going a large number of lightly armored and SDC targets, for example, HE gives you 2x the number of kills (very roughly speaking) for the same price.
But against a lower number of heavily armored targets, plasma would be the way to go.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Irrelevant; this is not an either/or issue.
Actually it is. If the Roll mechanic now consume an action/attack to perform, when under an attack you are going to look at what gives you the best chance to survive the missile attack by spending that one action: Dodge (no damage), Shoot Down (varying level of damage reduction), Roll (1/2 damage). Rolling while an option, no longer seems to make any sense to do for that 1APM when you could just dodge negating damage all together. [/quote]
RUE 340-341
Step 3: Defender May Parry, Dodge or EntangleStep 4: Attacker Rolls DamageStep 5: Defender May Attempt to Roll With ImpactRolling With Impact isn't on the same level as parry/dodge/entangle, where you must choose only one; it's its own thing, and does not hinge on whether or not you previously tried to parry, dodge, or entangle an incoming attack.
After damage is rolled, "If the attack is a physical impact like... a explosion... the defender can attempt to roll with the impact."
No caveats for "unless the defender previously spent an attack attempting a parry, dodge, or entangle.
Note that this is in RUE, and Step 5 lists specifically that Rolling with impact counts as one melee attack/action, yet there is still no such caveat about having not being able to Roll if you've already spent one attack on a Dodge/Parry/Entangle.
Also on RUE 341
Option to parry (or dodge) in hand to hand combat. If successfully parried, no damage is inflicted and the defender readiest himself to counter-strike. If the parry fails and the character takes damage, he may opt to roll with impact, but to do so will count as one of his melee actions/attacks.Note the following:
-Linguistically, the parenthetical reference to dodging in the first sentence indicates that while the rest of the paragraph may use the word "parry," it's also talking about dodge, and the same rules apply.
-There is no mention of losing the option to Roll if one spends an attack on an unsuccessful Parry attemptl
RUE 363
Under
Dodging Missiles:
A successful missile dodge will get the character out of the missile's direct line of impact (maximum damage). HOWEVER, the character must run or dive out of the missile's blast radius to completely escape taking any MD whatsover. That may require flying, running, or diving some distance (anywhere from 3 to 90 feet depending on the missile) to get completely out of the blast radius. The Game Master should use discretion as to whether that may require a second dodge roll or count as one roll but two melee actions.Using up an attack on a defense does NOT inherently mean that you cannot then use another attack on defense against the same attack.
You can dodge twice against one missile, using two attacks; once against the direct impact, and once against the blast radius.
So there's no reason I can see to believe that using up one dodge to get out of the way of the main blast would mean that one could not likewise Roll With Impact to reduce the damage of the blast radius (although that would be less potentially useful than using a second dodge, if you're in an enclosed area where escaping the blast radius is impossible, Rolling would be your only real option for dealing with the radius.
And by that same token, there's nothing I'm aware of saying that one
cannot, after failing to dodge the direct hit from a missile, then go on to use another attack to Roll With Impact against the explosion.
The idea that (paraphrased) "if you use one attack/action on defense, that means you cannot use another attack/action against the same defense" does not seem to have any validity within the actual rules of the game.
So why can't a person who fails a dodge roll against getting shot or stabbed, then go on to attempt another dodge against the same attack? Or attempt to parry it? Or attempt to entangle it?
Because Step 3 of the combat rules only allows for one attempt:
Any time an attacker rolls a successful strike to hit, the defender can choose to parry, dodge, or entangle.The attacker rolls one strike.
You get to choose one of the above options, once, not multiple options in any combination.
Since Roll With Impact is a different step and is not listed, it is not restricted by whether or not you choose to parry/dodge/entangle.
Parry/Dodge/Entangle are options that occur before damage is rolled.
Roll is an option that occurs after damage is rolled.
They don't conflict with each other.
Killer Cyborg wrote:If that fails, and you have time, you try to dodge (which tank's can't generally do unless on the move, IIRC).
Given Missiles speeds and range to target, if you attempt to shoot a missile down with guns (or mini-missiles) and fail you arguably don't have time for a 2nd action (missiles cover 1,000ft typically in ~1sec, some even faster, yes I did the math). Now someone with a high APM count (order of near 15) this wouldn't apply to, but most of the time characters (PC or NPC) aren't going to be in this neighborhood.[/quote]
If you have time to dodge both a missile AND the blast radius with two separate dodge rolls, then I don't see why you wouldn't have time to dodge, then roll, or even to shoot, dodge, then roll.
It's not about time, so much as it's a matter of whether you have enough attacks.
Killer Cyborg wrote:If one or both of those fail, then you roll with impact.
That would be a house rule then since you have to have some actual time to continue to react.
Can you give me the book and page number for the canon rule that states "you have to have some actual time to continue to react?"
Killer Cyborg wrote:NOT exactly, no.
The penalties for shooting a moving target are (RUE 361) -1 to strike something under 20 mph, and an additional -1 to strike for every 50 mph of speed.
A high explosive missile travels at 500 mph, so you'd be at -11 to strike.
So that 8 turns into a 19, as far as I can tell, going by canon.
That assumes speed based penalties to strike also apply for mechanized combat (vehicle/'bot), I can certainly see that apply to Infantry, but not mecha. Case in point the combat example in RMB (involving the Enforcer and Samas) omits any use of speed penalties, though they are in the book in an odd place (SDC guns section). Nor are we reminded to apply those penalties when shooting down missiles, which would be a good place to reinforce that those apply here.
Hm. Interesting point!
However in this example all we're told is that a roll of 14 is sufficient to hit the missiles, and the penalty in the RMB for fast moving targets more than 40mph is a flat -6 to strike.
Since ranged weapons only required a 4 to strike at the time, a roll of 10 or better would suffice to hit the missile.
So while it would indeed be a handy place to discuss the speed-related strike penalties for shooting missiles, the lack of such discussion doesn't necessarily mean anything; it wasn't directly relevant because the strike roll would hit the missile in spite of such penalties.
Meanwhile, as I looked over the RMB combat section to read this example, I stumbled onto this:
RMB 41
To Roll With A Punch, Fall, or ImpactThis is a saving throw of sorts, or a second dodge, to minimize damage. Players of HU will already be familiar with this hand to hand combat rule. In this case, if the player fails his dodge roll and is about to be hit by a missile(s), he has a sort of second dodge or saving throw, where the character tries not to resist the explosive impact and rolls with it.Sure, I don't think Roll took up an attack/action when the RMB was written, but it demonstrates how Roll is supposed to work, as a kind of second dodge if the first one fails.
The only thing that's changed is that if you Dodge, fail, and Roll with Impact, you now use 2 attacks on defense instead of just one, NOT that your "sort of second dodge" can no longer be attempted at all.
Killer Cyborg wrote:That applies only to LRMs as of RUE, and even then only certain LRMs.
Not exactly true (RUE pg364, Missile Strikes). What has changed between RUE and RMB is that RUE no longer uses a flat generic bonus, but rather moves it to the launch platform to provide a bonus if it is different than the flat generic +3/+5 type. So really any thing that can provide a bonus to strike in ranged combat ('bot, PA, tank, borg, other vehicle, etc) unless specified to a specific system could be taken as indicating the missile is guided.[/quote]
Yes, RUE 364, under Missile Strikes:
Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle or launcher description, mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided...and
Except for multi-warhead and long-range missiles (both rare), most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.Now look at the part on Missile Volleys:
...a character can dodge one, two, and even three guided missiles... however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more...Unless the missile is a LRM, multi-warhead, or specifically specified to be a guided missile, it is NOT a guided missile.
The rule for not being able to dodge 4+ missiles only applies to guided missiles.
Ergo, the rule for not being able to dodge 4+ missiles only applies to LRMs, multi-warheads, or missiles/launchers that specify that they are using guided missiles.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Again, plasma costs more, and it's less effective or even ineffective against any targets with magical heat/fire protection.
If we're going to consider protective resistances, resistances DO extend beyond just the heat/fire protection (energy, laser, and even Kinetic exist). Though presumably if you are expecting to deal with someone that has resistances to certain attacks you would look to use weapon options that circumvent the resistance.[/quote]
Sure, protection against kinetic exists.
But it's not as common as protection against fire/heat, unless I suppose you want to count Roll With Impact.
With the CS foes including mages (who have a wide variety of potential spells protecting themselves and/or others from heat/fire), psychics (who have a wide variety of potential powers protecting themselves and/or others from heat/fire), and supernatural critters (who often have special protection against heat/fire), I'd expect Plasma to not be the go-to standard for most situations.
As a player, I certainly avoid plasma missiles for this reason.
I do agree that there are plenty of cases where plasma would be the way to go. When the CS faced off with Free Quebec, they knew there wouldn't be dragons, mages, or elementals on the other side, so plasma was better way to go.
And there would be plenty of assignments where plasma would be the best choice for similar reasons.
BUT for a daily "we don't know what we might run into" patrol mission?
I'd go with Armor Piercing over plasma, or frag, or HE.
OR, if possible, I'd at the most put plasma in one specific kind of launcher, and other types in the other launchers, if the vehicle does in fact have multiple launchers.
(Really, even with one launcher, I don't see much reason to not mix things up a bit in Rifts: a volley of 4 missiles that included 1 AP, 1 Plasma, 1 HE, and 1 Frag, for example, would average out pretty darn well. It'd just be a pain for the GM and players to do the math on sometimes.)