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Talavar wrote:I see. So basically made-up. Fun! In this debate you seem to believe that you can make things up, but no one else can, whether its logical or not.

Taking Palladium rules and applying them to a Palladium setting isn't conjecture or making anything up.

Swallowing Rift sucks in all non-living flying matter by the way; speed is irrelevant.

The spell description lists an exemption for intelligent targets. A "smart" missile would be intelligent enough to avoid the rift and it's already been established that a light wind will not deter a missile capable of super-sonic speed. This leaves aside the issue of area of effect, namely the rift would need to be in at least the general area for the in-take to be effective. How many degrees of coverage does it provide?

Aftermath says the FQ effectively destroyed the entire CS navy. Their pre-war navy minus 8 ships isn't effectively destroyed, so either you're wrong or Palladium is. I'm guessing you'll say it's them.

You're wrong. Aftermath states FQ destroyed 50%-75% of the CS navy it faced. That would, logically, be the 1st Naval Group based on the Great Lakes with operations along the St. Lawerence Seaway and North East US coastal regions. There are two other CS Naval bases. No where in Aftermath does it list a battle damage report describing the specific CS Naval ships lost so there is no way to know if the lost ratio above applies to capital ships or CS Naval tonnage across the board.

Yes, it can be opened on any nexus. It doesn't require a triangle.

Pyramids prevent rifts from opening. I believe the question was a valid one. Can the Swallowing Rift spell be cast on a nexus that has a pyramid on it? You accuse Ed of wild conjecture, then proceed to do the same.

Again, I'm just demonstrating that what you said in the first place was wrong, when you said they couldn't make viable clones. They can also make multiple copies of people, the original DNA sample just breaks down after 4. Pretty easy to get multiple DNA samples though. Also, it says they're close to being able to create mutant animals as of that book's timeline of 101 PA. By the current time in Rifts they're probably able to, but I forgot - you're allowed to have conjectures, but not anyone else.

I beleive the original point was that Earth technology was superior to the Kitanni in at least one area: cloning.

You're right, how foolish of me; there aren't any nexus points in North America, and minions of Atlantis have certainly never been to the mainland.

I believe the full point was dependent on the invasion route. Nexus points aren't evenly distributed for example, there are only three nexus points in the state of Alabama And while Atlantis has visited mainland NA, it took until PA 109 for them to reach the Mississippi. Is it not conjecture on your part that there would be sufficient number, in the line of advance, to supply an invasion?

Wow, I wonder when my cheque will be coming for writing RUE? It really should've been here by now.

Perhaps you could set aside the sarcasm and explain, to those of us without the RUE rulebook, the nature of this ability. It's not mentioned in the Main Rulebook or Dark Conversions.

The TW airships are slow, but have a huge capacity. No reason it couldn't be provisions instead of troops. Kittani Slave Raiders are both fast & have a huge storage capacity. Slaver Motherships are enormous & moderate-speed, Sea Skimmers are ultra-enormous & pretty fast, & Dragon dreadnaughts, while having a smaller capacity are incredibly fast. Seems like they've got all the bases covered to me.

Not for the numbers of troops an invasion would involve.

Well, the "so" is that Atlantis would have no difficulty moving & supply a large military force. You know, the point I was debating, that you tried to tear apart point by point. Did I lose you somewhere in there?

While possible for Atlantis to move and supply large numbers of troops within their territorial footprint, nothing you've pointed out implies a similar ability to do so outside their territory.

Again, we don't have published stats for these yet. You know, like those multiple warhead, multi-megaton nuclear weapons you were tossing around earlier. I really don't know what to say about the spacefleet comment.

You're wrong there as well. MIRV (multiple warhead) missiles are described in the Main rulebook, the Coalition nuclear weapons program in Coalition Navy. Likewise the complement of the Ohio-class ballastic missile submarine.

Lenwen wrote:Point 1 : Point 2 point teleportation does indeed have to be known to the caster .. You telling me that it would not be feasible for a dragon to simply be along with one of the hundreds of Slavers running up and down the old american coast there by ensuring the KNOWN exact spot for said teleportation ? yeah .. ok .. good one .

If the dragon was the one casting the spell. The spell payload isn't enough to solve the provision problem.

Point 2 : Circle Magic - Two circles 1 at point A (atlantis) 1 at point B Invasion area (camp) total cost of creation .. 600ppe (300 each) . Total amount ANY pyramid can hold in Storage ( 500- 3000) PPE cost more then covored for creation of both circles PPE Cost to open after creation :just a pair of Fearie wings .

What's the through-put of a transportation circle?

Point 4 : Pyramid Magic is such that EVEN if another pyramid is NOT on the same Ley line at all even OTHER Pyramids can be teleported to so long as the Operator of the Pyramid KNOWS the exact location of said Pyramid . Easy enough as any number of Slavers could easily know that info .

Where are the pyramids is North America? How long does it take to build a pyramid?

Point 5 : Said Pyramid as well as Said Circle magic could easily supply how ever many biengs are in on the initial assault of the Eastern Coast Buffer war . Untill the Slaver Motherships Dreadnaughts and Skimmers arrived .

Doubtful. Given the amount of time involved to build a pyramid and the low through-put of a circle of transportation.

Point 6 : Not only does this all seem relativly easy now that I actually did the looking up of several key items notice the pyramid magic specifications as well as the Specified Circle Magic info that would seem the Prefurred method of Initial Assault upon the Eastern Seaboard . and all it would really take ........10th Lvl Stone Master x 3......10th lvl Circle master x1 ( as he created first circle prior to bieng teleported by the 10th lvl stone master Dragon to the known location of said assault )

There's no question that Atlantis could land a couple hundred troops on the East Coast with a very nominal effort. But a couple hundred troops does not make an invasion.

Any more questions about the Feasability of Magicial means of Troop Transport or Supply lines ? how can you stop a supply line when it starts IN the Atlantean Compound an well ends in Splynn itself ? Curious ... Very curious ...

Continous artillery bombardment?

* side note * Lord Splynncryth = A.I. could easily grant one of his deific powers : Create Deific Portal : which can PERMENETALY open a portal from Splynn to there Invasion encampment as well .. just thought bout that one as well had to *EDIT* this just to add this heh sorry bout that .

Still creates a static supply depot. Static means easy to bomb and destroy.

....Whoa ....
......ONE.... ATLANTIS ; has every concievable advantage .Interdimensional kingdom with hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of times the resources the Coalition has . Cant argue that point.
......Two....ATLANTIS; IF Lord Splynncryth so desired could precipitate an all out invasion of the North American continent that in my personal estamates would entail the 90 to 95% destruction of the Coalition states (Minus maby Free Quebec) with relative impunity inside two months .
......ATLANTIS... largest threat to that sorta invasion would not be Coalition Forces , Federation of Magic , nor even Lazlo . Flat out the only force on the continent that could concieably slow down that invasion would be the Xitixic . A species who doubles thier overall Population on a geometric rate every 5 years .( iirc)
.....What about the powers that be ..... Good point Yes Rifts earth is a so called free zone an the powers that be have agreed to not let anyone or anything control TOO much of this mega-resource . At the onset of the Atlatean invasion (which would take maby two months three depending on how well the Xitixic Assault went )All the Powers that be would still be embroiled in thier own plots an schemes where ever it is they are . Yes givin sufficent enough time they would be able to probebly liberate most of the continent(but I highly doubt they could liberate 100% of it)
...Recap.. Atlantean invasion would take 2-3 months at most.(of the entire North American Continent). Powers that be would be TOO busy at the onset of the war to intervene the Coalition in said invasion would be simply blown away . Think 10 BILLION troops vrs what ever the entire population of the Northern Hemisphere is in a POST-APOCOLYPTIC setting with Tech , magic , numerical superioroity . Thousands of years of Military know how .. nearly Limitless resources ... bye bye Coaltion.
..I am curious as to what you guys have to say about this whole scenario now lol.

-Lenwen

Lenwen wrote:....Whoa ....
......ONE.... ATLANTIS ; has every concievable advantage .Interdimensional kingdom with hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of times the resources the Coalition has . Cant argue that point.

Define resources. I could argue that the resource inequality was just as great when comparing the United States and the Peoples Republic of North Vietnam. How'd that turn out?

......Two....ATLANTIS; IF Lord Splynncryth so desired could precipitate an all out invasion of the North American continent that in my personal estamates would entail the 90 to 95% destruction of the Coalition states (Minus maby Free Quebec) with relative impunity inside two months .

Your challenge is to show an iota of support for this claim

......ATLANTIS... largest threat to that sorta invasion would not be Coalition Forces , Federation of Magic , nor even Lazlo . Flat out the only force on the continent that could concieably slow down that invasion would be the Xitixic . A species who doubles thier overall Population on a geometric rate every 5 years .( iirc)

The Xitixic are even more logistically challenged than Atlantis.

.....What about the powers that be ..... Good point Yes Rifts earth is a so called free zone an the powers that be have agreed to not let anyone or anything control TOO much of this mega-resource . At the onset of the Atlatean invasion (which would take maby two months three depending on how well the Xitixic Assault went )All the Powers that be would still be embroiled in thier own plots an schemes where ever it is they are . Yes givin sufficent enough time they would be able to probebly liberate most of the continent(but I highly doubt they could liberate 100% of it)

Metagame reasoning.

...Recap.. Atlantean invasion would take 2-3 months at most.(of the entire North American Continent). Powers that be would be TOO busy at the onset of the war to intervene the Coalition in said invasion would be simply blown away . Think 10 BILLION troops vrs what ever the entire population of the Northern Hemisphere is in a POST-APOCOLYPTIC setting with Tech , magic , numerical superioroity . Thousands of years of Military know how .. nearly Limitless resources ... bye bye Coaltion.

Doubtful. Unsupported. Directally contradictory of the setting text.
I doubt you could find any evidence Splynncryth has one fifth that number of troops under arms. You've yet to describe a means to deliver 0.1% of that number to North America let alone the astronomical amount of food and supplies such an army would require

..I am curious as to what you guys have to say about this whole scenario now lol.[

-Lenwen

Figment of your imagination?

Dunno if I ever answered the original posters question tho so I think I will now lmao . The Coalition in my personal opinion IF they can get past the Xitixic . Thats going to be a fun meta-plot if you ask me I like that book an think its going to be close if and when they (CS ,Xitixic) collide.


-Lenwen.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:I see. So basically made-up. Fun! In this debate you seem to believe that you can make things up, but no one else can, whether its logical or not.

Taking Palladium rules and applying them to a Palladium setting isn't conjecture or making anything up.

The other poster treated any conjectures of mine as worthless, then proceded to use his own to prove his point. This is simply a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Swallowing Rift sucks in all non-living flying matter by the way; speed is irrelevant.

The spell description lists an exemption for intelligent targets. A "smart" missile would be intelligent enough to avoid the rift and it's already been established that a light wind will not deter a missile capable of super-sonic speed. This leaves aside the issue of area of effect, namely the rift would need to be in at least the general area for the in-take to be effective. How many degrees of coverage does it provide?

Smart missiles are hardly artifically intelligent, but regardless, the exception is for living flyers, not intelligent flying objects. Arguing that the spell won't work on strategic nukes because of their speed is flawed, because it works on long range missiles, which are faster. The major CS strategic nuke presented in the CS navy is a tomahawk cruise missile, which are subsonic. Long range missiles go as fast as mach 3.

And no, the CS does not have ICBMs, unless I'm going to get some more wild conjecture as a rebuttal.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Aftermath says the FQ effectively destroyed the entire CS navy. Their pre-war navy minus 8 ships isn't effectively destroyed, so either you're wrong or Palladium is. I'm guessing you'll say it's them.

You're wrong. Aftermath states FQ destroyed 50%-75% of the CS navy it faced. That would, logically, be the 1st Naval Group based on the Great Lakes with operations along the St. Lawerence Seaway and North East US coastal regions. There are two other CS Naval bases. No where in Aftermath does it list a battle damage report describing the specific CS Naval ships lost so there is no way to know if the lost ratio above applies to capital ships or CS Naval tonnage across the board.

No, because Aftermath provides a paragraph on the topic, not another source book. They destroyed 50-75% of their Great Lakes Fleet & apparently significant portion of the ocean going fleet, because Aftermath goes on to say Free Quebec "devastated the Coalition Navy. In fact, the Coalition's greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy, which will take 6-8 years to build back," (Aftermath, pg 139).

If only a portion of one fleet was lost, that's hardly devastation or a loss of the magnitude described there.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Yes, it can be opened on any nexus. It doesn't require a triangle.

Pyramids prevent rifts from opening. I believe the question was a valid one. Can the Swallowing Rift spell be cast on a nexus that has a pyramid on it? You accuse Ed of wild conjecture, then proceed to do the same.

Pyramids prevent random rifts from opening; one of their major purposes is to open controlled rifts. A Swallowing Rift is a controlled rift.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Again, I'm just demonstrating that what you said in the first place was wrong, when you said they couldn't make viable clones. They can also make multiple copies of people, the original DNA sample just breaks down after 4. Pretty easy to get multiple DNA samples though. Also, it says they're close to being able to create mutant animals as of that book's timeline of 101 PA. By the current time in Rifts they're probably able to, but I forgot - you're allowed to have conjectures, but not anyone else.

I beleive the original point was that Earth technology was superior to the Kitanni in at least one area: cloning.

The original point was operating under faulty information - that Kittani couldn't create viable clones. Though potentially unable to make mutant animals, they are superior in another area - cloning specific limbs & organs. The CS can't do that. Regardless, the original point was wrong; defend the error as much as you please.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:You're right, how foolish of me; there aren't any nexus points in North America, and minions of Atlantis have certainly never been to the mainland.

I believe the full point was dependent on the invasion route. Nexus points aren't evenly distributed for example, there are only three nexus points in the state of Alabama And while Atlantis has visited mainland NA, it took until PA 109 for them to reach the Mississippi. Is it not conjecture on your part that there would be sufficient number, in the line of advance, to supply an invasion?

The point was that point-to-point rifts & teleportation are perfectly feasible.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Wow, I wonder when my cheque will be coming for writing RUE? It really should've been here by now.

Perhaps you could set aside the sarcasm and explain, to those of us without the RUE rulebook, the nature of this ability. It's not mentioned in the Main Rulebook or Dark Conversions.

Really, you're going after my use of sarcasm when my bringing up the shifter ability led to both a personal insult and an accusation of just making it up? Really?

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:The TW airships are slow, but have a huge capacity. No reason it couldn't be provisions instead of troops. Kittani Slave Raiders are both fast & have a huge storage capacity. Slaver Motherships are enormous & moderate-speed, Sea Skimmers are ultra-enormous & pretty fast, & Dragon dreadnaughts, while having a smaller capacity are incredibly fast. Seems like they've got all the bases covered to me.

Not for the numbers of troops an invasion would involve.

What kind of numbers do you think an invasion would require? They have the capacity to land hundreds of thousands of super-powered & power-armour troops in a short time period, the ability to drop smaller groups almost anywhere in North America, and resupply them almost as easily.

How many would you consider an invasion? A million? More?

And let's flip this around for a minute - all of my arguments are coming under microscopic scrutiny; turn that lens on the CS for a minute. Do they have a comparative ability to move as many troops & keep them supplied, as fast and as far away as the Splugorth of Atlantis?

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Well, the "so" is that Atlantis would have no difficulty moving & supply a large military force. You know, the point I was debating, that you tried to tear apart point by point. Did I lose you somewhere in there?

While possible for Atlantis to move and supply large numbers of troops within their territorial footprint, nothing you've pointed out implies a similar ability to do so outside their territory.

Because Splugorth boats and flying equipment only work in Atlantis? Is that what you're going for, because I really don't understand your objection here.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Again, we don't have published stats for these yet. You know, like those multiple warhead, multi-megaton nuclear weapons you were tossing around earlier. I really don't know what to say about the spacefleet comment.

You're wrong there as well. MIRV (multiple warhead) missiles are described in the Main rulebook, the Coalition nuclear weapons program in Coalition Navy. Likewise the complement of the Ohio-class ballastic missile submarine.

Yes, and look at the stats provided for those missiles. They're hardly the 2d6x10 000 MDC missiles my opponent was conjuring up for the CS to use, are they? The CS navy weapons are all kiloton-range nukes, & the long range, multiple warhead missiles are of the tactical, or mini-nuke variety.

And no defence for the spacefleet comment? Maybe you can rationalize my opponent's reason for bringing that up as anything other than insulting.

ok lets try this on for size then this will be fun the military force of the atlantean armada : (just from atlantis book pg 19) Based off of only Lord splyncryths forces already here on earth ..

High lords - 1million sent .
Conservator's -75 to 100'000
Overlords - 10,000,000.
PowerLords-2million .
Slavers (along with thier standard compliment of warrior women)- 100'000
Kittani - 3 million.

Of the minions I just mentioned from Atlantis Slaver's Conservator's will eat any prisioners taken . And with regular military doctern roughly 16.2 million troops against the CS ..ok not looking good at this moment.
...Resources.. using only atlantis world book 2 now ... Kittani who were already a space faring race when they were saved by the Splugorthian's ( they did go toe to toe with the Mechanoids for 7 year's ) so logistically speaking do you really need me to go threw an explain how they would get supplies to and troops to the main land coast ? Ok then Kittanian Space troop transports which would easily fit in earths atmosphere would take them with relative impunity ... ( yes thats not in rifts atlantis book but that IS for generalities ...) I know they have them You know they have then that is a fact sorry name me ANY space aged militarisitic civilization in the megaverse with out that capacity ...
...FOOD,SUPPLIES.. again Dimenionally rifted in via off world holdings from Lord Splynncryth .
... Warning ... Imagination ... working ... here ....
Relativly powerful REGIONAL Force . Vrs INTERDIMENSIONAL Kingdom.
is there really honestly an arguement there ? Sorry CS peeps .. Not trying to offend anyone but honestly .. to think otherwise is well just not sound judgement .
...To think that the leaders of that kingdom are such ineffective administratores as to underestamate or even not KNOW thier OWN capabilities is pure ludacris ( haha luv that word ) to think that atlantis could field a military force that large an not keep it fully supplied an geared is to make a complete mockery of them and or thier capabilities. There is a reason as to why Naruni has not yet even considered taking out the splugorthian's . Sorry man as I said CS all outwar on Atlantis no matter how you wanna call it would be the downfall of CS . Personal attacks aside I do apologize to you tho for showing you the Folly of a CS war against Atlantis .

p.s. I did find it funny that you think its hard for an interdimensional power to cross .... the ocean ... my guess is if they can cross Dimensional barriers ... the ocean is not that big of a problem. (just a guess tho)

-Lenwen.

There's only one way I see Atlantis being defeated, short of a assault by some pantheon of gods and their armies, is to incite a massive revolt among it's slaves.

There's 28 million slaves currently on Atlantis as of WB2. Also of interesting note would be the fact that the 3.2 million Metzla would join in attacking Splynncryth.

If the dragons and gargoyles could somehow be subverted, then so much the better.

Who could pull it off - the Sunaj/Aerihman. Maybe. If they can also frame Splynn for the deaths of all the other Atlanteans, then the other clans might also jump in. The ultimate goal of course would be that the Atlanteans and the Splugorth are both eliminated, and Atlantis falls into the hands of the Aerihman.


But as to who will dominate North America? The CS.

Lenwen wrote:... Warning ... Imagination ... working ... here ....
Relativly powerful REGIONAL Force . Vrs INTERDIMENSIONAL Kingdom.
is there really honestly an arguement there ? Sorry CS peeps .. Not trying to offend anyone but honestly .. to think otherwise is well just not sound judgement .

CS's biggest advantage is the fact that splynn is actually in Atlantis. Atlantis, being a dictatorship, will fall easily if you can kill the dictator thanks to the power vacuum it creates. While he's conquered worlds, I doubt he's ever been at the for-front of any kind of attack. If CS can do enough damage to kill him before he can react (IE: Dimentional teleport) that's all they'd need to kill him.

Talavar wrote:The other poster treated any conjectures of mine as worthless, then proceded to use his own to prove his point. This is simply a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander

Again, it's hard to see where applying Palladium rules to a Palladium setting can be considered conjecture.

Smart missiles are hardly artifically intelligent, but regardless, the exception is for living flyers, not intelligent flying objects.

So opening the Swallowing Rift sucks down everyone from SkyWay Tours and anyone within its area of effect who isn't flying naked? Hardly something that would be deployed over a major tourist attraction like the Dimensional Market.

Arguing that the spell won't work on strategic nukes because of their speed is flawed, because it works on long range missiles, which are faster. The major CS strategic nuke presented in the CS navy is a tomahawk cruise missile, which are subsonic. Long range missiles go as fast as mach 3.

And no, the CS does not have ICBMs, unless I'm going to get some more wild conjecture as a rebuttal.

Wild conjecture? No. Just the knowlege of what type of missle found on and carried by an Ohio-class submarine.

Talavar wrote:No, because Aftermath provides a paragraph on the topic, not another source book. They destroyed 50-75% of their Great Lakes Fleet & apparently significant portion of the ocean going fleet, because Aftermath goes on to say Free Quebec "devastated the Coalition Navy. In fact, the Coalition's greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy, which will take 6-8 years to build back," (Aftermath, pg 139).

If only a portion of one fleet was lost, that's hardly devastation or a loss of the magnitude described there.

When FQ defected from the Coalition States it took 75% of the Great Lakes fleet with it, whick included 30 of the 43 capital ships in the entire Navy. The CS suffered devastating losses to FQ before the war even began and without losing one single additional ship.

A nuclear attack on Atlantis only requires one Ohio-class submarine, and since a ballastic missile sub would be worse than useless in constricted waters like the St Lawerence there are two stationed at the naval base in Baton Rouge

Talavar wrote:
Pyramids prevent random rifts from opening; one of their major purposes is to open controlled rifts. A Swallowing Rift is a controlled rift.

Why is that not wild conjecture, since Swallowing Rift isn't one of the listed pyramid powers? Pyramids and Stone Masters open the controlled rift, not a spellcaster.

The original point was operating under faulty information - that Kittani couldn't create viable clones. Though potentially unable to make mutant animals, they are superior in another area - cloning specific limbs & organs. The CS can't do that. Regardless, the original point was wrong; defend the error as much as you please.

I don't know what your deal with Ed is, but it appears you are letting your anamosity cloud your reasoning.

Replacement cloning can be done in Japan. Which was mentioned in the original comment.

The point was that point-to-point rifts & teleportation are perfectly feasible.

No one has said otherwise. However, no one has yet to demonstrate the viability of using either technique for large-scale logistics management.

Really, you're going after my use of sarcasm when my bringing up the shifter ability led to both a personal insult and an accusation of just making it up? Really?

If I were to have speaking to Ed, I might have made a similar request. Like I said, I don't know what your deal with Ed is, but I have no intention of getting involved with it.

I notice you didn't anwser the question.

What kind of numbers do you think an invasion would require? They have the capacity to land hundreds of thousands of super-powered & power-armour troops in a short time period, the ability to drop smaller groups almost anywhere in North America, and resupply them almost as easily.

How many would you consider an invasion? A million? More?

Demonstrate how Atlantis could land 25,000 mixed troops in Helen, Georgia and keep them resupplied, on site, for two weeks. See how many wild conjectures and assumptions you need to accomplish that task.

And let's flip this around for a minute - all of my arguments are coming under microscopic scrutiny; turn that lens on the CS for a minute. Do they have a comparative ability to move as many troops & keep them supplied, as fast and as far away as the Splugorth of Atlantis?

That is irrelevant, since the discussion was about an Atlantean invasion of North America.

Because Splugorth boats and flying equipment only work in Atlantis? Is that what you're going for, because I really don't understand your objection here.

Because magical resupply and mass transit doesn't work outside the Atlantean zone of control. Boats and flying equipment lack the range and heavy lift capacity to support more than several thousand (depending on the type) troops.

Yes, and look at the stats provided for those missiles. They're hardly the 2d6x10 000 MDC missiles my opponent was conjuring up for the CS to use, are they? The CS navy weapons are all kiloton-range nukes, & the long range, multiple warhead missiles are of the tactical, or mini-nuke variety.

Coalition Navy is clear. The CS has the capacity to build multi megaton yield weapons and mount them on MIRV missile platforms. Using established Palladium rules for explosive yields it is possible to calculate the damage such weapons would inflict. Doing so is, logically, less of a retconn than insisting Splynncryth knows the Swallowing Rift and Triangular Defense spells.

And no defence for the spacefleet comment? Maybe you can rationalize my opponent's reason for bringing that up as anything other than insulting.

Perhaps you should ask Ed. Or better yet, maybe Vampire Hunter D should ask Ed.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Really, you're going after my use of sarcasm when my bringing up the shifter ability led to both a personal insult and an accusation of just making it up? Really?

If I were to have speaking to Ed, I might have made a similar request. Like I said, I don't know what your deal with Ed is, but I have no intention of getting involved with it.

Huh. That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

Talavar wrote:Swallowing Rift sucks in all non-living flying matter by the way; speed is irrelevant.

BRILLIANT. Talavar, if these Boards didn't already have a resident Genius, I'd give you the title. PURE GOLD! Here I was worried about having to discuss first strike deterrent scenarios and overload quotients, when you just hand me the keys to the kingdom. I can't think of a superlative superlative enough to inject here. Of course Splynncryth knows Swallowing Rift and there are advanced missile defense systems all over Atlantis. How could I have been so stupid as to argue against them?

Of course the Dimensional Market is out of business, but hey, it's only the gem in Splynncryth's crown. Why should it matter.

Aftermath says the FQ effectively destroyed the entire CS navy. Their pre-war navy minus 8 ships isn't effectively destroyed, so either you're wrong or Palladium is. I'm guessing you'll say it's them.

You'd guess wrong. Since, unlike a certain person I could mention, I know that FQ defected with 75% of the CS 1st Fleet which contained the majority of the capital ships; and I can do a little basic math and conclude that 75% of the 25% remaining is 7.5. I rounded up.

Oh, silly me. Is multiplication and subtraction considered wild conjecture?

It was important to know when that first missile barrage would come. Also useful might have been advanced radar, missile detection systems, heck, a couple of dozen psychics with the clairvoyance power. Useful yes. Critical, no.

Brilliant, given the constant threat of missile attack, that means EVERY flier on Atlantis will have to wear an IFF transponder or get shot down by their own air defense system. Gee Whiz, I love it when you conjecture. It's so much fun!! Between that and the Swallowing Rift sucking up VIPs, the Dimensional Market may never sell another thing.

You're right, how foolish of me; there aren't any nexus points in North America, and minions of Atlantis have certainly never been to the mainland.

Conjecture me up a string of nexus points that only Atlantis knows about or, even better, conjure up a means to create them out of thin air. I'd love to see what kinds of damage I could do with that ability. Until then, an invasion force would be limited to the nexus points it could locate and control before it ran out of food. Pick the wrong invasion route and the minions starve. Try to resupply at the wrong nexus and get ambushed. Now I wonder who might have a map of the nexus points on the eastern US. Nope. I got lectured for conjecturing and I'm not going to do it. Just because a geriatric scholar from Canada can detail the major/minor nexus points across the continental US doesn't mean a expansionistic military power with decades of effort and thousands of wilderness scouts and rangers, aerial recon and pre-rifts navigation charts would bother to mark nexus points on a map. No sir.

Hey, whatever you think of my examples, at least I've got them, rather than insults and a lost argument.

And you conjecture good too. Of course you have a tendency to partial quote and your math skills need work. But hey, great examples!!

The TW airships are slow, but have a huge capacity. No reason it couldn't be provisions instead of troops. Kittani Slave Raiders are both fast & have a huge storage capacity. Slaver Motherships are enormous & moderate-speed, Sea Skimmers are ultra-enormous & pretty fast, & Dragon dreadnaughts, while having a smaller capacity are incredibly fast. Seems like they've got all the bases covered to me.

I'm sure you can come up with some killer vulnerabilities: like only being able to travel along ley lines and thus being exposed to ley line storms, or Minions actually having to eat, regularly. Or, or storage capacity being taken up with power armor, or the risk of attack in transit. Good stuff like that.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:The other poster treated any conjectures of mine as worthless, then proceded to use his own to prove his point. This is simply a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander

Again, it's hard to see where applying Palladium rules to a Palladium setting can be considered conjecture.

I extrapolated from Palladium rules about equipment the Kittani should have, and was smacked down for it. Doing the same for CS nukes either opens the door for both sides to extrapolate - or neither should.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Smart missiles are hardly artifically intelligent, but regardless, the exception is for living flyers, not intelligent flying objects.

So opening the Swallowing Rift sucks down everyone from SkyWay Tours and anyone within its area of effect who isn't flying naked? Hardly something that would be deployed over a major tourist attraction like the Dimensional Market.

Really, am I the only one with the Book of Magic? Read the spell description of swallowing rift - it sucks in non-living matter, and gives a negative piloting check to people flying in the area. Disagree with how the spell works if you like, that's as it stands as published. And really, in the middle of a missile strike, do you think anyone is going to care about tourism? "Oh no, we can't hurt the tourists to stop the missiles! I know, we'll wait for the missiles to kill them, that'll help the tourism industry."

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Arguing that the spell won't work on strategic nukes because of their speed is flawed, because it works on long range missiles, which are faster. The major CS strategic nuke presented in the CS navy is a tomahawk cruise missile, which are subsonic. Long range missiles go as fast as mach 3.

And no, the CS does not have ICBMs, unless I'm going to get some more wild conjecture as a rebuttal.

Wild conjecture? No. Just the knowlege of what type of missle found on and carried by an Ohio-class submarine.

Are you trying to say CS subs have ICBMs? As printed in the CS Navy sourcebook, they don't. They have long range missiles.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:No, because Aftermath provides a paragraph on the topic, not another source book. They destroyed 50-75% of their Great Lakes Fleet & apparently significant portion of the ocean going fleet, because Aftermath goes on to say Free Quebec "devastated the Coalition Navy. In fact, the Coalition's greatest material loss has been the loss of it's navy, which will take 6-8 years to build back," (Aftermath, pg 139).

If only a portion of one fleet was lost, that's hardly devastation or a loss of the magnitude described there.

When FQ defected from the Coalition States it took 75% of the Great Lakes fleet with it, whick included 30 of the 43 capital ships in the entire Navy. The CS suffered devastating losses to FQ before the war even began and without losing one single additional ship.

A nuclear attack on Atlantis only requires one Ohio-class submarine, and since a ballastic missile sub would be worse than useless in constricted waters like the St Lawerence there are two stationed at the naval base in Baton Rouge

I just looked up those Ohio class submarines, and I didn't even realize that the CS only has 2. In total. And sure, they carry a lot of missiles - but otherwise - they suck. Hard. The book describes them as hard to maintain & terribly vulnerable to modern warships and power armour troops. That's a terribly weak link to be carrying the weight of all these CS hopes & dreams.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Pyramids prevent random rifts from opening; one of their major purposes is to open controlled rifts. A Swallowing Rift is a controlled rift.

Why is that not wild conjecture, since Swallowing Rift isn't one of the listed pyramid powers? Pyramids and Stone Masters open the controlled rift, not a spellcaster.

Because it's a spell, and pyramids have no negative effect on the ability to cast spells. It's comments like these that make me think you're just being willfully obstinant.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:The original point was operating under faulty information - that Kittani couldn't create viable clones. Though potentially unable to make mutant animals, they are superior in another area - cloning specific limbs & organs. The CS can't do that. Regardless, the original point was wrong; defend the error as much as you please.

I don't know what your deal with Ed is, but it appears you are letting your anamosity cloud your reasoning.

Replacement cloning can be done in Japan. Which was mentioned in the original comment.

That's great for Japan. Are they a member of the Coalition States now?

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:The point was that point-to-point rifts & teleportation are perfectly feasible.

No one has said otherwise. However, no one has yet to demonstrate the viability of using either technique for large-scale logistics management.

Actually, you said otherwise. "Point to point rifts aren't possible." Your words from earlier in the thread.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Really, you're going after my use of sarcasm when my bringing up the shifter ability led to both a personal insult and an accusation of just making it up? Really?

If I were to have speaking to Ed, I might have made a similar request. Like I said, I don't know what your deal with Ed is, but I have no intention of getting involved with it.

I notice you didn't anwser the question.

Yes, that stumper of a question, what the Shifter's special abilities are. And no, I'm not going to answer the question. Do a forum search, start a new thread on the topic, buy RUE. Ed made derogatory comments when I brought them up, comments which you keep defending. Do your own legwork.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:What kind of numbers do you think an invasion would require? They have the capacity to land hundreds of thousands of super-powered & power-armour troops in a short time period, the ability to drop smaller groups almost anywhere in North America, and resupply them almost as easily.

How many would you consider an invasion? A million? More?

Demonstrate how Atlantis could land 25,000 mixed troops in Helen, Georgia and keep them resupplied, on site, for two weeks. See how many wild conjectures and assumptions you need to accomplish that task.

Well, they'd need to establish a beachhead in the middle of nowhere, so I'm sure that would be terribly difficult. Each Kittani Hydrofoil carries a troop complement of 136 (a mix of power armour, slavers & blind warrior women), not counting the crew, and can hold up to 800 slaves - presumably that area could be used to hold supplies or more troops - and 500 tons of cargo. A splugorth mother ship carries a troop complement of about 1600 (a mix of power armour, overlords, powerlords, metzla, conservators, slavers, blind warrior women) and can hold 20 000 slaves - again presumably can be used to hold supplies or additional military forces. The Sea Skimmers have a complement of another 1600 (same mix) and can hold up to 120 000 tons of cargo. Splugorth Sea fins can carry up to 1140 troops and up to 100 000 tons of cargo.

Now, the issue is that we have no numbers of how many of most of these Atlantis has. They only have 4 of the motherships, and "less than 300" of the Sea Skimmers. Presumably they have more of the smaller vehicles, the Sea Fins & the Kittani slave raiders, but all we have for that is lots. As supposition, let's say they have 150 Sea Skimmers, half of the maximum the book gives, but I'll only use the sea skimmers - that's 240 000 fighting individuals of a wide mix of Atlantean minions. It's also 18 million tons of cargo. Now, the Sea Skimmers, the primarily ocean-going, can also fly, so getting to Georgia isn't an issue. There're also the metzla, ocean going & flying Splugorth minions, well 56% of them can, so they can easily get to Georgia without any vehicular/magic support. There are 3.2 million metzla in Atlantis, 56% of that is 1.79 million.

Now, since the challenge was only for 25 000 troops & supplies for that number, it wouldn't be too hard. Any conjectures there too wild for you?

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:And let's flip this around for a minute - all of my arguments are coming under microscopic scrutiny; turn that lens on the CS for a minute. Do they have a comparative ability to move as many troops & keep them supplied, as fast and as far away as the Splugorth of Atlantis?

That is irrelevant, since the discussion was about an Atlantean invasion of North America.

No, the discussion was about a CS/Atlantis war. It could go either way. Regardless, even if Atlantis invaded, the CS would have to get soldiers & supplies to the front.

Samored II wrote:

Talavar wrote:Because Splugorth boats and flying equipment only work in Atlantis? Is that what you're going for, because I really don't understand your objection here.

Because magical resupply and mass transit doesn't work outside the Atlantean zone of control. Boats and flying equipment lack the range and heavy lift capacity to support more than several thousand (depending on the type) troops.

Do they? Thousands of soldiers and thousands of tons of cargo, each, largely unlimited by range? They sure don't seem to.

Ed wrote:BRILLIANT. Talavar, if these Boards didn't already have a resident Genius, I'd give you the title. PURE GOLD! Here I was worried about having to discuss first strike deterrent scenarios and overload quotients, when you just hand me the keys to the kingdom. I can't think of a superlative superlative enough to inject here. Of course Splynncryth knows Swallowing Rift and there are advanced missile defense systems all over Atlantis. How could I have been so stupid as to argue against them?

What does your whole argument revolve around: nukes delivered by a pair of ancient submarines. Aside from that you've offered insults, condescension, and attacks on points I've raised without bringing up any of your own. Read over my most recent post to Samored II, try to read some Palladium books with your blinders off, and again, congratulations on providing some of the best proof of the John Gabriel Greater Internet Theory I've read in a long time. Aside from that, I'm done with you unless you have something reasonable, rational, or interesting to say.

Talavar wrote:Are you trying to say CS subs have ICBMs? As printed in the CS Navy sourcebook, they don't. They have long range missiles.

The Ohio SSBNs described in Coalition Navy have UGM-133A Trident II ICBMs. The author has made some mistakes with the missile designation and details but they are clearly referred to as Trident missiles. Coalition Navy has the following entry on p. 74:

"UMG-133A Long-Range Missile Launchers (24): Aft of the bridge tower are twenty-four Trident missile launchers arranged in two columns of twelve one-shot launchers. There is a total of 336 warheads. Just one Ohio carries more firepower than the combined might of the SCN's aircraft carriers and aircraft!"

If you search for information on "UMG-133A trident missiles" you won't find anything, but this is because the correct designation for the Trident missiles carried by the Ohios is UGM-133A (the author has simply made a spelling mistake). Each UGM-133A Trident missile carries up to 12 warheads, either 100 kt W76 warheads or 475 kt W88 warheads. In addition to getting the name wrong the author also listed an incorrect total number of warheads carried by the trident missiles, which should be a total of 288 warheads, not 336 (there are 24 trident missiles with up to 12 warheads each).

In terms of damage, Coalition Navy has 100 kt warheads inflicting 2D4x100 M.D. to a 300 m blast radius and 5D6x10 M.D. to a 4.8 km blast radius. Using some basic calculations (which I've described in detail in another thread) the 475 kt warheads would inflict approximately 4D6x100 M.D. to a 360 m blast radius and 2D4x100 M.D. to a 5.8 km blast radius.

Talavar wrote:I just looked up those Ohio class submarines, and I didn't even realize that the CS only has 2. In total. And sure, they carry a lot of missiles - but otherwise - they suck. Hard. The book describes them as hard to maintain & terribly vulnerable to modern warships and power armour troops. That's a terribly weak link to be carrying the weight of all these CS hopes & dreams.

Coalition Navy states that as of 103 P.A. the CS Navy has a nuclear arsenal of approximately 1000 warheads with a combined yield of 150 mt. Its not clear exactly how much of the CS nuclear arsenal is carried by the Ohios, but based on the maximum capacity of the Trident missiles each Ohio could carry approximately 30% of the total number of CS nuclear warheads if fully loaded (288 out of 956 warheads). So even if both Ohios were taken out the CS would still have around 380 warheads with a combined yield of approximately 60 mt. Coalition Navy also mentions that as of 103 P.A. the CS plans to decommission the Ohios within the next decade, but it doesn't state what will be done with the nuclear warheads. Presumably the missiles would either be transferred to another class of submarines, converted into a land-based configuration or the warheads would be rebuilt and installed on new missiles.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the CS has the ability to increase this arsenal considerably. According to Coalition Navy, p. 47:

"Nuclear weapons are not uncommon in the Rifts environment, many arms manufacturers sell long-range missiles with mini-tactical nuclear warheads. The CS program, however, represents a major shift in nuclear weapons construction and payload. The common tactical nukes produce almost no radiation and affect an area of only 50 feet! New Coalition-made nukes, on the other hand, are strategic "city-busters" with blast radii of several miles! CS nukes are patterned after the pinnacle of pre-apocalypse nuclear weapons design - the same design that touched-off the Great Cataclysm. These are "clean" devices that produce minimal fallout (long-term radiation) but combine the destruction of a thermonuclear explosion with the enhanced radiation of a neutron bomb. What this means is that these nukes can utterly destroy enemy cities, bases and armies without causing long-term devastation of the environment, or so the CS believes.

Due to the abundance of weapons-grade nuclear material, a material produced in the power plants of the CS war machines, the Coalition is able to produce 50 devices of up to one megaton yield per year!"

This means that the CS can increase their existing arsenal by up to 50 mt per year. So the existing Coalition Navy arsenal of approximately 150 mt combined yield as of 103 P.A. could be doubled within approximately three years, producing an arsenal of 300 mt by 106 P.A. or 450 mt by 109 P.A., which is quite impressive.

In terms of damage, a 1 mt nuclear warhead would inflict approximately 6D6x100 M.D. to a 420 m blast radius and 2D6x100 M.D. to a 6.6 km blast radius. Also, since the fallout contamination is minimal the CS could theoretically use this weapon on their own coastline to deter landing parties or even on their own territory once an army has crossed the CS borders.

So if you take the CS nuclear arsenal into account the real questions here are whether Atlantis has sufficient missile defences to stop the missiles from striking their territory and if they could deal with the tactical use of 1 mt warheads during an invasion. Coalition Navy seems to indicate that the CS would be unlikely to win against Atlantis in a conventional fight, so it really comes down to whether their nuclear arsenal could be employed effectively.

Devari wrote:

Talavar wrote:Are you trying to say CS subs have ICBMs? As printed in the CS Navy sourcebook, they don't. They have long range missiles.

The Ohio SSBNs described in Coalition Navy have UGM-133A Trident II ICMBs. The author has made some mistakes with the missile designation and details but they are clearly referred to as Trident missiles. Coalition Navy has the following entry on p. 74:

"UMG-133A Long-Range Missile Launchers (24): Aft of the bridge tower are twenty-four Trident missile launchers arranged in two columns of twelve one-shot launchers. There is a total of 336 warheads. Just one Ohio carries more firepower than the combined might of the SCN's aircraft carriers and aircraft!"

If you search for information on "UMG-133A trident missiles" you won't find anything, but this is because the correct designation for the Trident missiles carried by the Ohios is UGM-133A (the author has simply made a spelling mistake). Each UGM-133A Trident missile carries up to 12 warheads, either 100 kt W76 warheads or 475 kt W88 warheads. In addition to gettting the name wrong the author also listed an incorrect total number of warheads carried by the trident missiles, which should be a total of 288 warheads, not 336 (there are 24 trident missiles with up to 12 warheads each).

In terms of damage, Coalition Navy has 100 kt warheads inflicting 2D4x100 M.D. to a 300 m blast radius and 5D6x10 M.D. to a 4.8 km blast radius. Using some basic calculations (which I've described in detail in another thread) the 475 kt warheads would inflict approximately 4D6x100 M.D. to a 360 m blast radius and 2D4x100 M.D. to a 5.8 km blast radius.

If the missiles onboard the Ohio subs are meant to be ICBMs, which, apparently, they are, then they need reclassification by Palladium. ICBMs have a much greater range than even the traditional Rifts long-range missiles, which is how the Ohio's complement is currently described, and ICBMs can carry much larger payloads, as you've illustrated. Definitely food for thought.

Talavar wrote:

Devari wrote:

Talavar wrote:Are you trying to say CS subs have ICBMs? As printed in the CS Navy sourcebook, they don't. They have long range missiles.

The Ohio SSBNs described in Coalition Navy have UGM-133A Trident II ICMBs. The author has made some mistakes with the missile designation and details but they are clearly referred to as Trident missiles. Coalition Navy has the following entry on p. 74:

"UMG-133A Long-Range Missile Launchers (24): Aft of the bridge tower are twenty-four Trident missile launchers arranged in two columns of twelve one-shot launchers. There is a total of 336 warheads. Just one Ohio carries more firepower than the combined might of the SCN's aircraft carriers and aircraft!"

If you search for information on "UMG-133A trident missiles" you won't find anything, but this is because the correct designation for the Trident missiles carried by the Ohios is UGM-133A (the author has simply made a spelling mistake). Each UGM-133A Trident missile carries up to 12 warheads, either 100 kt W76 warheads or 475 kt W88 warheads. In addition to gettting the name wrong the author also listed an incorrect total number of warheads carried by the trident missiles, which should be a total of 288 warheads, not 336 (there are 24 trident missiles with up to 12 warheads each).

In terms of damage, Coalition Navy has 100 kt warheads inflicting 2D4x100 M.D. to a 300 m blast radius and 5D6x10 M.D. to a 4.8 km blast radius. Using some basic calculations (which I've described in detail in another thread) the 475 kt warheads would inflict approximately 4D6x100 M.D. to a 360 m blast radius and 2D4x100 M.D. to a 5.8 km blast radius.

If the missiles onboard the Ohio subs are meant to be ICBMs, which, apparently, they are, then they need reclassification by Palladium. ICBMs have a much greater range than even the traditional Rifts long-range missiles, which is how the Ohio's complement is currently described, and ICBMs can carry much larger payloads, as you've illustrated. Definitely food for thought.

Unfortunately the entry for the Trident missiles isn't particularly clear and should have been given a full statline (and edited to correct the mistakes). Another aspect to consider with ICBMs is whether or not the ballistic missiles would reach a high enough sub-orbital altitude to be attacked by the satellites and other defences around Rifts earth. I assume that this won't happen because the CS would be aware of this possibility and almost certainly would have used some type of test missile to make sure that their ICBMs would work effectively.

I've also added some more information to to my post above regarding the CS nuclear arsenal and how it could be employed. According to Coalition Navy the CS can produce nuclear warheads rather quickly if necessary (50 warheads per year of up to 1 mt each) so it seems that the nuclear arsenal described in CS Navy is really just a starting point for the CS. And since the Coalition warheads produce minimal fallout they could attack an invading force even once it reaches CS territory, giving them some highly effective options for tactical nuclear strikes.

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Lenwen wrote:... Warning ... Imagination ... working ... here ....
Relativly powerful REGIONAL Force . Vrs INTERDIMENSIONAL Kingdom.
is there really honestly an arguement there ? Sorry CS peeps .. Not trying to offend anyone but honestly .. to think otherwise is well just not sound judgement .

CS's biggest advantage is the fact that splynn is actually in Atlantis. Atlantis, being a dictatorship, will fall easily if you can kill the dictator thanks to the power vacuum it creates. While he's conquered worlds, I doubt he's ever been at the for-front of any kind of attack. If CS can do enough damage to kill him before he can react (IE: Dimentional teleport) that's all they'd need to kill him.

Um. and the Coalition isn't a dictator hip? Note that it would also be much easier to take out a Squishy Karl or Josef than it would Splynncryth

The point isn't who is squishier or who is more vulnerable. The point is that CS stands a chance because Splynn is available for destruction. I'm not arguing how squishy CS is to splynn, it's a fruitless argument. But, CS still has a chance, if they have an initial strike, a fast, hard hitting powerful attack that fells Splynn they can win.

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Lenwen wrote:... Warning ... Imagination ... working ... here ....
Relativly powerful REGIONAL Force . Vrs INTERDIMENSIONAL Kingdom.
is there really honestly an arguement there ? Sorry CS peeps .. Not trying to offend anyone but honestly .. to think otherwise is well just not sound judgement .

CS's biggest advantage is the fact that splynn is actually in Atlantis. Atlantis, being a dictatorship, will fall easily if you can kill the dictator thanks to the power vacuum it creates. While he's conquered worlds, I doubt he's ever been at the for-front of any kind of attack. If CS can do enough damage to kill him before he can react (IE: Dimentional teleport) that's all they'd need to kill him.

Um. and the Coalition isn't a dictator hip? Note that it would also be much easier to take out a Squishy Karl or Josef than it would Splynncryth

The point isn't who is squishier or who is more vulnerable. The point is that CS stands a chance because Splynn is available for destruction. I'm not arguing how squishy CS is to splynn, it's a fruitless argument. But, CS still has a chance, if they have an initial strike, a fast, hard hitting powerful attack that fells Splynn they can win.

Sure. I'll bite. How?

Strategic nuclear weapons.

Nxla and the Soul Harvesters (covering all of your blues and soul favourites)!

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Beni ... Your CS based Logic is well exactly what a CS (favored) person would say about a Atlantean Nuclear based attack upon CS holdings that is scary


-Lenwen.

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

Just like the CS can't track every mutant, supernatural being or mage in the 'burbs or their cities...

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

Just like the CS can't track every mutant, supernatural being or mage in the 'burbs or their cities...

Exactly.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

Just like the CS can't track every mutant, supernatural being or mage in the 'burbs or their cities...

Exactly.

And a nuclear strike that is going to take out either leader is a lot 'bigger' and more important then the vampires or mutants, so why would they be comparable?


Daniel Stoker

Beni wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Um. and how exactly do you 'attack a ley line'? They can be attacked? Why would this affect the fact that all the psychics in Splynn would sense bombs coming?

I swear, Coalition fanbois are funny in their logic.

Not a fanboy, I just know there are missiles that explode over an area. If you know the area around atlantis is covered in Ley lines the blast causes various side effects. that and what else are you going nuke? Tolkeens gone.

It was just an idea. though.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

Just like the CS can't track every mutant, supernatural being or mage in the 'burbs or their cities...

Exactly.

I know that you know that, but both you and I know that many don't know that.

Beni wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Um. and how exactly do you 'attack a ley line'? They can be attacked? Why would this affect the fact that all the psychics in Splynn would sense bombs coming?

I swear, Coalition fanbois are funny in their logic.

By mass killings, damaging Nexus stations...as was shown in tolkeen.

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Um. and how exactly do you 'attack a ley line'? They can be attacked? Why would this affect the fact that all the psychics in Splynn would sense bombs coming?

I swear, Coalition fanbois are funny in their logic.

By mass killings, damaging Nexus stations...as was shown in tolkeen.

Tolkeen was pure writer's fiat.
Else Holmes' troops wouldn't have survived the hivelands, despite their obvious use of cannibalism...

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Um. and how exactly do you 'attack a ley line'? They can be attacked? Why would this affect the fact that all the psychics in Splynn would sense bombs coming?

I swear, Coalition fanbois are funny in their logic.

By mass killings, damaging Nexus stations...as was shown in tolkeen.

Tolkeen was pure writer's fiat.
Else Holmes' troops wouldn't have survived the hivelands, despite their obvious use of cannibalism...

I disagree. You're telling the creator of the Xiticix that that is now how they would act. He gave a broad overview in the Xiticix book on how they would act, but it still left a lot opened which he showed in SoT.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Indirectly attack the ley lines around them and watch the caranage from shore. THEN send your boys in, better yet mor Nukes or Big bombs.

Um. and how exactly do you 'attack a ley line'? They can be attacked? Why would this affect the fact that all the psychics in Splynn would sense bombs coming?

I swear, Coalition fanbois are funny in their logic.

By mass killings, damaging Nexus stations...as was shown in tolkeen.

Tolkeen was pure writer's fiat.
Else Holmes' troops wouldn't have survived the hivelands, despite their obvious use of cannibalism...

I disagree. You're telling the creator of the Xiticix that that is now how they would act. He gave a broad overview in the Xiticix book on how they would act, but it still left a lot opened which he showed in SoT.

Hmm... maybe you have a different printing than mine?
Mine states in no uncertain terms what the xiticix will attack. Holmes' force meets all criteria to be attacked. In swarms. Numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands.
Nae to mention, they were in the hivelands for how many months with nothing but eachother to eat?

I have to add this ... IF some one cant stop the Xitixic CS at present underestimates thier numbers by millions ( iirc) That is something that very well could bite them in the butt later on . Tolkeen fell but took an extream amount of CS resources from that last I remember ( if wrong specify please ) Xitixic reproduce on a geometric scale every 5 years Populations Doubling . They were already at couple hundred thousand come pa-101 was it ? Lets start at that point then . Y 1 - 200'000 5 years later .Year 5 -- 400'000 . 5 years later -- 800'000 . Going by this rate 35 years of unchecked geometric population growth shows year 35 Population of 25.6 million . WB-30 pg 8 states in all of Canada USA and Mexico lands there is 30 - 40 million senteint beings . Sorta gives you an idea doesent it .Cant happen ? Well they been here already for decades an no one not a single person knows exactly how many Xitixic there are already . Basically who can stop them is the REAL question .This is already in the Upper extent of the Current Military population of the Coalition (after Tolkeen war) Yes the CS might be able to field more troops but not many more especially in a full blown offensive to kill off as many bugmen as they could . Rifts GM guide pg 337 Lists 6 known Hives . I dont have the xitixic book personally so I cant quote the exact numbers each hive has but I know its something crazy like 200ish thousand ( give or take ) after they reach a certain population limit Some actually branch off to go forth an create thier own hive . Again I apologize but I personally cant quote book pg # for the exact # prior to branching off but I know its relativly high . Its only been recently discovered that the larger the population of the Xitixic the more agressive they become and the insectoids could very well represent a danger to all life on the planet So in recapping . IF NO ONE can stop thier agressive nature and thier geometric Growth Rate the Xitixic could very well own The Entire world ( WB;30 pg-215)

Just some Thoughts ..

-Lenwen.

Samored II wrote:

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:The point isn't who is squishier or who is more vulnerable. The point is that CS stands a chance because Splynn is available for destruction. I'm not arguing how squishy CS is to splynn, it's a fruitless argument. But, CS still has a chance, if they have an initial strike, a fast, hard hitting powerful attack that fells Splynn they can win.

Sure. I'll bite. How?

Strategic nuclear weapons.

Look through some of the threads on Tolkeen vs CS. There are plenty of technological, physical security, and psychic arguments for why the Tolkeenites wouldn't/couldn't successfully nuke Chi-Town. Now, take all those arguments and add all the magical and geographical reasons an attack wouldn't/couldn't work and you'd have the arguments about why the CS wouldn't/couldn't nuke Splynn.

CS fans are immune to thier own logic. Sorry Jack Daniels good point EXTREAMLY valid as well . But as noted above CS fans are immune to thier own arguements .


-Lenwen.

Jack Daniels wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:The point isn't who is squishier or who is more vulnerable. The point is that CS stands a chance because Splynn is available for destruction. I'm not arguing how squishy CS is to splynn, it's a fruitless argument. But, CS still has a chance, if they have an initial strike, a fast, hard hitting powerful attack that fells Splynn they can win.

Sure. I'll bite. How?

Strategic nuclear weapons.

Look through some of the threads on Tolkeen vs CS. There are plenty of technological, physical security, and psychic arguments for why the Tolkeenites wouldn't/couldn't successfully nuke Chi-Town. Now, take all those arguments and add all the magical and geographical reasons an attack wouldn't/couldn't work and you'd have the arguments about why the CS wouldn't/couldn't nuke Splynn.

Except that the CS has the means to do so.

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Psychic warnings too vague to be operationally useful. That's why Tolkeen needed Poor Yorick.

Samored II wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Beni wrote:

dark brandon wrote:The point isn't who is squishier or who is more vulnerable. The point is that CS stands a chance because Splynn is available for destruction. I'm not arguing how squishy CS is to splynn, it's a fruitless argument. But, CS still has a chance, if they have an initial strike, a fast, hard hitting powerful attack that fells Splynn they can win.

Sure. I'll bite. How?

Strategic nuclear weapons.

Look through some of the threads on Tolkeen vs CS. There are plenty of technological, physical security, and psychic arguments for why the Tolkeenites wouldn't/couldn't successfully nuke Chi-Town. Now, take all those arguments and add all the magical and geographical reasons an attack wouldn't/couldn't work and you'd have the arguments about why the CS wouldn't/couldn't nuke Splynn.

Except that the CS has the means to do so.

So did Tolkeen.
Different means, but means nonetheless.

Eitherway untill a solid version is written we will have to leave to GM's on the Nuke issue. As for conventioonal tactics I can see the CS goading a fight between the Magical nations and the Psplynn to weaken both splyn n and the other faction.

If I couldn't nuke I'd go that road by setting my bases near others do gooders that would fight the splynn. Combine that with leading the splyn in Xixtict zones...I'd have a field day in misdirection. (All while building up my assault forces. hows that for a non nuke plan?

Rimmerdal wrote:Eitherway untill a solid version is written we will have to leave to GM's on the Nuke issue. As for conventioonal tactics I can see the CS goading a fight between the Magical nations and the Psplynn to weaken both splyn n and the other faction.

If I couldn't nuke I'd go that road by setting my bases near others do gooders that would fight the splynn. Combine that with leading the splyn in Xixtict zones...I'd have a field day in misdirection. (All while building up my assault forces. hows that for a non nuke plan?

Would be great except for the fact that the splugorth minions already know where the xiticix are... and I doubt many other nations would allow you to build bases right next to them.

Vrykolas2k wrote:So did Tolkeen.
Different means, but means nonetheless.

Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

Samored II wrote:Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

Call it a hunch, but I'd say his use of 'different' means meant that they didn't have nuclear means, but other ways like say magic spells/devices that could have done something similar.


Daniel Stoker

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:Eitherway untill a solid version is written we will have to leave to GM's on the Nuke issue. As for conventioonal tactics I can see the CS goading a fight between the Magical nations and the Psplynn to weaken both splyn n and the other faction.

If I couldn't nuke I'd go that road by setting my bases near others do gooders that would fight the splynn. Combine that with leading the splyn in Xixtict zones...I'd have a field day in misdirection. (All while building up my assault forces. hows that for a non nuke plan?

Would be great except for the fact that the splugorth minions already know where the xiticix are... and I doubt many other nations would allow you to build bases right next to them.

True and the Xixtict would expand there Hives.

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:So did Tolkeen.
Different means, but means nonetheless.

Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

GM created TW Wardeads. THey hit and a huge rift opens up to the Biggest meanest monsters you've ever seen...

NOW that beats a nuke.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:So did Tolkeen.
Different means, but means nonetheless.

Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

GM created TW Wardeads. THey hit and a huge rift opens up to the Biggest meanest monsters you've ever seen...

NOW that beats a nuke.

Definitely. Most definitely even. What book are those in again? Because I admit I missed them.

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Samored II wrote:Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

Call it a hunch, but I'd say his use of 'different' means meant that they didn't have nuclear means, but other ways like say magic spells/devices that could have done something similar.


Daniel Stoker

A logical, and correct, hunch...
When people say "nuke a place" they don't always mean with nuclear weapons.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Samored II wrote:Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

Call it a hunch, but I'd say his use of 'different' means meant that they didn't have nuclear means, but other ways like say magic spells/devices that could have done something similar.


Daniel Stoker

A logical, and correct, hunch...
When people say "nuke a place" they don't always mean with nuclear weapons.

OK. Like what?

This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Splugorthians are Alien Intelligences.
Dragons n Gods pg 92 : CREATE Deific PORTAL : No limmits on size nor duration . Can be manipulated as per the Deity's desire .

Splynncryth decides to actually do this he looks to his ally ; ALISTER DUNSCUN .. Who has been WANTING to do this very thing . With the Splugorthian backing his motivation is that much stronger to seek revenge. The Pyramids in the FoM theater are activated all bringing troops threw 24 hours a day 7 days a week . Circle magic no questions asked will be placed all over FoM territory (key locations) with corrasponding circles for each in Atlantis . All bringing troops as well as supplies an all sorts of goodies for them threw 24 hours a day 7 days a week .

Meanwhile Lord Splynn's diefically created Portals which are NEVER closed an are large enough to bring entire ARMIES to the theater within hours is doing such 24 hours a day 7 days a week . At multiple sites along the FoM held Territory within days .(yes Days..) Millions arive with both full air combat support as well as complete supply depo's set up 100% with defensive positions having already been set up (hello ally alister's forces) the CS watches this an centerally localizes thier entire armies . Cs officers then decide to leave the navy in various positions along the rivers leading out to the Atlantic an hope they can attack this military armada from behind on a double prong attack . Totallity of CS military forces . (after tolkeen war ) 2 million man armies ( that is extreamly EXTREAMLY generous after thier tolkeen war efforts) With full support battalions ready as well as Air Combat wings all operational .
Atlantean Forces in FoM number into the tens of millions bolstered by the Troops directly under Alister Dunscon's authority . Complete Kittani armada's stand ready with full battalions of supplies mearly waiting . Entire batteries of K-TRF-M's on the standby ready to completly overwhelm the skies an completly own the air war . With several Deific portals set directly in the Kittani's home world for various reasons as well as several Deific portals leading to one of the home worlds of the Kydians litterally Lord Splynn has billions of Troops he could easily manuver ( or lose) ready at a whims notice.
Does this sound about right to anyone out there ?

-Lenwen.

There's really no question that the CS would eventually be defeated in a conventional war with an enemy that has superior technology and numbers. But as I mentioned earlier, this is where the CS nuclear arsenal comes in. As of 103 P.A. the CS had the manufacturing capability to produce up to 50 nuclear warheads each of 1 mt yield per year, which means they can produce a 1 mt warhead each week. They also have a readily accessible supply of nuclear material for building warheads from the power plants of all their nuclear-powered vehicles. Best of all, since the CS warhead designs have minimal fallout they can be used tactically even if enemy forces have reached and entered CS territory. So the relevant question here is what does an invading force do when the CS detonates a 1 mt warhead upon the arrival of any sizeable force at their borders? It certainly costs much less to produce that 1 mt warhead than it does to replace the thousands of enemy troops and vehicles that it can destroy, so it will end up costing an enemy an enormous number of troops to make any progress while costing the CS relatively little. And the CS could also scale up their nuclear weapons program substantially, dramatically increasing warhead production and producing much larger yield warheads. In this type of situation I could easily see the CS reaching a stalemate with an invading force where the enemy can keep sending in reinforcements and the CS can keep destroying them with nuclear warheads. Now, even though the CS warheads produce minimal fallout there will still be some gradual environmental damage and eventually the CS will be uninhabitable. But by the time that happens an invading enemy force will have sent literally millions of troops and vehicles only to have them nuked each time they enter CS territory.