Why is Magic Energy different?

[Killer Cyborg]

<sigh>
OK,

Magic obviously gives off Magic Energy. Magic Energy is PPE. Magic gives off PPE.

Some spells have a permanent-like effect. Example is Create Wood. After the wood is created, it doesn't go anywhere and has no PPE.
Is energy type Magic like this? Semi-permanent and 'real' (and by that I mean the same as nature would make). If so, then like 'real' Lightning (or what have you) it (the energy) would not have any PPE. So how would it effect someone or something immune to it?

If it is still 'Magical', it is still radiating with Magical Energy (PPE). Just like the Magical Energy (PPE) a Ley Line Walker can sense and see.

Magical fire would still detect as magical energy, because that's what it is:
1. Magical.
2. Energy.

Effectively, a Fire Ball (for example) is a limited duration (until it hits the target) magically created magical weapon made of enchanted fire.

Does that help any?

If the energy (Lightning for example) is Magical, then it should take on the appearance of the energy that is creating it- in this case, Magical Energy (or PPE).

Why?

[Marcethus]

<sigh>
OK,

Magic obviously gives off Magic Energy. Magic Energy is PPE. Magic gives off PPE.

Snipped for irrelavance to what I am saying

that is where you have it wrong Not all Magic Energy is PPE. Nor does Magic give off PPE

PPE is the raw material that makes Magic Happen. It is channeled via a mage's will and turned into something beyond just PPE.

[Marcethus]

I stopped reading pages ago. This became one of "those" threads.

Beginning to agree with you there.

[Shiva7]

It might have died if you hadn't bumped it!

[Chad]

It is dead as far as I'm concerned.

I see no reason to resurrect it just for an act of 'bashing' by stating it is one of "those threads".
It was a legitimate question.

[Giant2005]

Nothing short of a supreme being can actually create an element.
All mages do is shape their magical energy into a form that mimics an element.
Because it is an imitation and not the genuine artifact, the rules it follows are different.

[Chad]

Nothing short of a supreme being can actually create an element.
All mages do is shape their magical energy into a form that mimics an element.
Because it is an imitation and not the genuine artifact, the rules it follows are different.

Thank you for responding, but that issue has already been addressed.
Afraid any further discussion would just be circler.

[Chad]

OK,

Magic obviously gives off Magic Energy. Magic Energy is PPE. Magic gives off PPE.

Some spells have a permanent-like effect. Example is Create Wood. After the wood is created, it doesn't go anywhere and has no PPE.
Is energy type Magic like this? Semi-permanent and 'real' (and by that I mean the same as nature would make). If so, then like 'real' Lightning (or what have you) it (the energy) would not have any PPE. So how would it effect someone or something immune to it?

If it is still 'Magical', it is still radiating with Magical Energy (PPE).

If the energy (Lightning for example) is Magical, then it should take on the appearance of the energy that is creating it- in this case, Magical Energy (or PPE).

Doesn't Physics do the same- bend existence (reality) to its will? See, that's starting to sound silly. Physics is the study of the nature of the Universe. Forces (energy, matter, etc.) and how they relate to each other. If Magic is naturally occurring, which it is, then Physics would include Magic and Magic would have to abide by the laws of Physics. If you seperate Magic (a natural energy of the Universe) from Physics (the study of all the energy of the Universe) then you no longer have Physics. I'm not sure what you have, but it ain't Physics.
Going by what I've read on quantum mechanics, and that is limited, I can understand how Magic could work. Magic energy used as a fuel at the quantum state to create the desired (reality altering) effect. What makes it Magic, and this is going by the books as well, is the mental manipulation of that energy/fuel.
The second sentence under the describtion of the spell 'Create Wood' is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

You know, I'm glad I created this thread.

Next time someone states that one of my ideas or something that makes sense to me but I can't explain in full isn't possible/realistic, I'm just going to post a link to it.

[Chad]

Malignor, were you high when you wrote the above?

"No magic is PPE except for PPE itself."- What the ****?

It is both stated and implied through out the book (RUE and RMB). Everytime it reads something about Magic or Mystical energy, it is easy to tell it is referring to PPE. Most of the time Magic Energy/PPE is described together. The majority seem to concur with you, but that still doesn't change the fact.
1) I heard KS state it himself.
2) It is what is read in the book.
3) It is the core point of my discussion.

It has been stated a magic sword, etc. gives off no PPE. Again, there is no proof of that. In fact, all other evidence (example- Psi Stalkers) seems to contradict that statement. Read under sense magic energy.

I agree with the currency part but not for the same reasons.
Magic, at least in Rifts, is not a noun. It is a verb.
Magic is the action, the process of using PPE to alter reality. There is no magic without PPE. So it's not that I'm stating all cats are animals but rather 'all cats are felines'.

I don't really get your point with the teleport/fire thing.
Or the Lightning issue, now that I look at it.

[Chad]

I'm so glad you know how to be polite and respect other posters, and not make things personal or childish. *ahem*

Dude... it sounded funny from my perspective, if you were offened somehow- my apologies. Wasn't my intention.

PPE = "Potential Psychic Energy". If the middle "P" were changed to "Paranormal" then the three words would be 100% accurate. "Potential" means not actual, yet. PKE (potential kinetic energy) can be measured, and can be traded for kinetic energy, which can be converted to other stuff like heat, electricity and so on (generators and friction are simple examples of the conversion). A hydroelectric dam is a sample of storing up potential energy (the water as it builds up behind the dam), then eventually releasing that potential into "actual" kinetic energy, and converting it.

ok.

Just the same, PPE is potential paranormal energy... it's magic energy that's not yet "actual" energy.

No, actually it is energy. Potential-Psychic-Energy. (The ability or power to work or make an effort; It has the capacity to do work; it is a supply or source of electrical, mechanical, or other form of power- it fits the definition)
Magic energy? Yes, I get that. A form of energy not fully understood in Rifts. Nonetheless, it is an energy. A natural energy that exist in the universe.
Take this back a few centuries and we were talking about Gamma Rays or what have you instead of Magic- it would still be energy.

PPE is like the buildup of water behind the dam, or the wound up elastic band. It's not doing anything as PPE,

Yes, it is. Read the books again.
You seem to be hung up on the word Potential.
According to the book, do you remember how it got that name?
Parapsychologists of the 20th century called it Potential Psychic Energy because they believed it to be responsible for the psychic talents that some people have potential for.
You are taking an Energy (PPE) that is described as surging, and tring to tell me that it is static? Not from what I've read nor what is played in my game.

Well when you "magic", I don't know what you're doing

That is obvious and I've already explained it- You're focusing PPE, using it to alter reality.

When you "dispel magic" or "channel magic", magic is a noun

I've never heard of 'channeling magic'. I've heard of 'channeling magic energy' (PPE). And usually 'barrier' is followed by the words 'dispel magic'.

When you have a "magic sword", magic is an adjective.

Well...hell.
I guess you've got me there.
I see your point now. It all makes sense. (that's a joke, don't get upset.)

Also, believe it or not, all cats are animals, and felines. But not all animals are cats, as I said above

Really.
That's...fascinating.

Of course, I'm not really arguing that they are not animals. I was simple stating that your analogy of my statement would be more accurate if 'feline' was substituted for 'animal'.

All PPE is magic, and potential energy. But not all magic is PPE. Magic is also things like a sword enchantment, an attribute of an energy attack (such as magic fire or lightning), potions and so on.

This is getting so retro. There are post already addressing this.
Ok, these things you mention may or may not give off PPE. My point on this issue- it doesn't state one wayor the other. But, considering Dog Boys can sense the magic energy radiating off of them, I would say that the odds are in my favor.

As for my lack of proof, I have many books which list the descriptions and relevant game effects of all manner of magic items. Many of them mention nothing about having PPE, or "giving off" PPE. Are you saying that Kev, in all his authority and wisdom, made the same mistake, over and over and over in multiple books (without any copy & pasting), meaning you're right and he's wrong... even though you claim him a valid reference?

You are taking what I'm stating out of context and attempting to change the focus.
When I made my 3 points above, it had nothing to do about PPE being in objects.
The subject was about Magic Energy being PPE. That's it.

As far as PPE coming off of magic items? I don't know (and you don't either, really). You would have to ask Kev.
On this subject (PPE coming off magic items), all I'm saying is that it would make sense if it were true.

Let me spell it out for you, then. You said...
"If the energy (Lightning for example) is Magical, then it should take on the appearance of the energy that is creating it- in this case, Magical Energy (or PPE)."
This implies that magic lightning "looks like" lightning, but is PPE, not lightning.

No.
My statement isn't implying that at all.
I don't know how else to explain it but to write the whole sentence over again.
IF it is magic energy- it should look like magic energy. Neon blue in color. Not like the real thing.
Maybe this is why I'm having trouble understanding. Your interpretation and what I'm writing seem to be two completely different things.

Yet magic fire operates like mundane fire plus it has additional characteristics - it usually does MDC in a high-magic environment, and it harms some supernatural beings which are impervious to normal fire. But it does all the things mundane fire does; it still thrives when there's flammable fuel, it still gives off heat and it still consumes oxygen. So it's fire, but it's also magical... it's "magical fire"... not PPE that "looks like fire

Yeah, now- what makes it magical?
Because it was simply created by magic?
Just because it is MD doesn't make it magical, so...?
You state yourself, "...the PPE is gone". And you know what? I agree. I think the PPE is used up in the creation. It (the fire or what have you) doesn't have any unusual properties, other than for some strange reason- it harms things that are normally impervious to it. And even then, that isn't always the case (for instance, the Tattoo Skull Engulfed in Flames protects one from Magic fire). It seems like MD, mundane fire to me.
So again, what makes it Magical? What's so special about it? It has no PPE. It has no magical properties. And I still don't think one can have magic without PPE.
Just saying it's MAGIC is a cop out. It still does not change the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever.

The closest thing to an explanation has been that the fire (or whatever) has a taint of PPE left on it.
Now I can buy in to that and let this thread die, unless someone just wants to argue.

[Killer Cyborg]

Malignor, were you high when you wrote the above?

"No magic is PPE except for PPE itself."- What the ****?

It is both stated and implied through out the book (RUE and RMB). Everytime it reads something about Magic or Mystical energy, it is easy to tell it is referring to PPE. Most of the time Magic Energy/PPE is described together. The majority seem to concur with you, but that still doesn't change the fact.
1) I heard KS state it himself.
2) It is what is read in the book.
3) It is the core point of my discussion.

It's a sloppy mistake on the part of Kevin and the other writers.

PPE and magic energy are described together because PPE is a kind of magical energy.
But that does not mean that PPE = Magic, that they are two different terms for the exact same thing.

It has been stated a magic sword, etc. gives off no PPE. Again, there is no proof of that. In fact, all other evidence (example- Psi Stalkers) seems to contradict that statement. Read under sense magic energy.

Here is what it says (RUE 153):

Like a bloodhound smelling a familiar scent, the Psi-Stalker can detect the presence of psychic energy; specifically fellow psionics (I.S.P.) and magic and the supernatural (both with high P.P.E.)

Note that Psionics, Magic, and The Supernatural, are counted as three separate things.
Note that the qualification for sensing a) magic, and b) the supernatural, is "with high P.P.E."
So a psi-stalker can detect:
-The I.S.P. of a fellow psychic.
-Magic, if there is a high level of P.P.E.
-The Supernatural, if there is a high level of a P.P.E.

The second one is where you have your problem, because if you were right that magic was P.P.E., then that part would make little sense.

Magic, at least in Rifts, is not a noun. It is a verb.
Magic is the action, the process of using PPE to alter reality.

Wrong.
RUE 153, "If psionic powers or magic are being used within the Psi-Stalker's range of sensitivity, he will sense that too."

One clear and easy instance right there of Magic being used as a noun.
And any time the books refer to "magic powers," as is mentioned later on the same page the word is being used as an adjective.
Not to mention all the numerous references to "magic energy."

There is no magic without PPE.

RUE 177
Under Sense Magic

The psychic will be able to sense whether or not an object has magical powers, if a person or item is enchanted/under a magic spell (this does not include psionic influences), when magic is being used within the area... and when a person is casting a spell (human users of magic do not radiate magic energies until they call upon them.

So a psychic can, using Sense Magic, tell whether a person has a spell cast upon them.
Since there is never, anywhere, in any of the books, any mention that a person who has a spell cast upon them has any extra PPE stuck on them, it seems to me that this is a clear case of being able to sense magic when there is no PPE present. Meaning that they are two separate things.

Granted, you can try to argue that there is a minute amount of PPE that actually composes the spell, and that is what is being sensed, BUT that doesn't quite work out.
For one thing, there is no distinction in this power how much the spell affecting the person costs.
Unlike with the Line Walker's power to sense magic that only lets them detect magic if there is more than 20 PPE present.
Unlike the Psi-Stalker's power that only lets them detect magic "if there is high PPE."

Perhaps the psychic power of Sense Magic is more powerful than what is available to Line Walkers and Psi-Stalkers, but it doesn't seem to be.
Line Walkers can effectively see invisible creatures due to the magic of the spell/power affecting them, but psychics using this power can only roughly pinpoint the location of such a creature.
(And while we're on the subject, how do you explain situations where creatures have magical abilities that cost no PPE? Like the Brodkil's ability to turn invisible? Wouldn't that be magic with no PPE?)

What about TW devices that have no PPE stored in them? Sure, mages can add their own PPE in order to create magic using the devise... but psychics can get the same effect using I.S.P.!
Magic without PPE.

What about virtually every magic weapon/armor in PFRPG, none of which (except rune weapons and maybe Holy weapons) have any PPE listed?
Magic without PPE.

What about Biomancer weapons?
What about Bio-Wizard weapons with no listed PPE?
What about Rune Statues?
What about Millennium Tree Bark Shields?
What about Japanese Elemental Shurikens?
What about Magic Powder Grenades?
What about the magic nunchucks, swords, knives, and other magical Japanese weapons with no PPE listed?
What about Native American Fetishes?
What about Inuit Amulets, Talismans, and other magic items?
What about Manoan Magical Power Armor?
What about Splugorth AoI amulets?
What about Mega-Blades?
What about Mokoloi blades?
What about Goblin Bombs?
Just for example, since last time I asked about magic weapons/armors/items that don't seem to have any PPE, you seemed confused what I was talking about.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yet magic fire operates like mundane fire plus it has additional characteristics - it usually does MDC in a high-magic environment, and it harms some supernatural beings which are impervious to normal fire. But it does all the things mundane fire does; it still thrives when there's flammable fuel, it still gives off heat and it still consumes oxygen. So it's fire, but it's also magical... it's "magical fire"... not PPE that "looks like fire

Yeah, now- what makes it magical?
Because it was simply created by magic?
Just because it is MD doesn't make it magical, so...?

What makes it magical is the fact that it is created by and enchanted by magic.

If you want to know how exactly we know it's magical, then I'll point out that it affects creatures that are vulnerable to magic.
Which I believe is what prompted this thread.

And there is the fact that it inflicts mega-damage, and the amount of mega-damage that it inflicts.
Yes, there are some mundane fire weapons that inflict mega-damage, but there's significant difference in effect.
But the only one I can think of off-hand is that thermo grenade with a 500' blast radius that inflicts a whopping 1 MD to the immediate target and SDC damage to everything else.

Versus a ball of fire about the size of a bowling ball (or smaller) that inflicts a minimum of 1d4 MD with no blast radius.
How is that fire ball NOT magic?

[AlanGunhouse]

Wow, you guys are still going an this huh?

It is a complex question, and the person who started the thread wants a simple answer...and will not accept "it's magic" as that answer. It could take a while

[Giant2005]

Yeah, now- what makes it magical?
Because it was simply created by magic?
Just because it is MD doesn't make it magical, so...?
You state yourself, "...the PPE is gone". And you know what? I agree. I think the PPE is used up in the creation. It (the fire or what have you) doesn't have any unusual properties, other than for some strange reason- it harms things that are normally impervious to it. And even then, that isn't always the case (for instance, the Tattoo Skull Engulfed in Flames protects one from Magic fire). It seems like MD, mundane fire to me.
So again, what makes it Magical? What's so special about it? It has no PPE. It has no magical properties. And I still don't think one can have magic without PPE.
Just saying it's MAGIC is a cop out. It still does not change the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever.

The closest thing to an explanation has been that the fire (or whatever) has a taint of PPE left on it.
Now I can buy in to that and let this thread die, unless someone just wants to argue.

Think of a virus, a person can be completely immunised against that virus but change that virus in even the most insignificant way and we are no longer immune.
Magic Fire might be pretty close to Fire but even the slightest variation could be enough to render the immunities of any number of classes/races completely inconsequential.