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Lobo wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:Gee Lobo you speak with allot of absolutes...

hehe sorry. Which comments did I make that are absolutes?
and allot of other stuff.[quote]

One of the things that should really be avoided when discussing rifts is speaking in absolutes because anything is possible. You list that a globe of silence will not silence a boom gun because the TW silencer does not work on rail guns. So what, the silencer is a device that uses part of the globe of silence effect, it does not define the parameters of the globe of silence, it simply borrows a small part of its effect.

As for the Cyber Knight Sniper idea, while I concede that it may be seen as a violation of the code of ethics, allot of knights are more flexible about their following the code, I can see lots of reasons why a cyber knight would have Sniping skills and still remain a honorable knight, He could use them for hunting, he could use them to go after non-sentient animals, he could snipe the swarms of skelebots on hunter killer missions that the CS routinely sends out, he could use his sniping skills to disable war machines but not kill their crews etc etc etc.

GB's just aren't meant to be snipers, it's as he said, they are artillery. Ill be the first to admit that, as a surprise attack, a GB can snipe pretty damn well. However, staying concealed just aint on the menu. Which means he isn't going to be the best sniper. You'd be better off finding a good laser weapon with no recoil or visible blast, and then mod it for bursts, and go to town. Or a railgun like the Shemarrions.

Bee Tee Dubs, I sense an Imminent Lock coming down

Murray wrote:Who needs pics of tanks fireing to show what a GB can do.
go here there are picws and technical data for a real rail gun and at the bottom a video.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Rail_Gun_pics.htm

notice the flames with out propellent.

Exactly, a Glitterboy firing its gun kicks up a ton of earth in front and behind the GB, makes a noise that can be heard by deaf people miles away* and has a massive flash of fire shooting out of the barrel. A Glitter boy is as subtle as a 80 STD PSA.


* only slightly exaggerating there.

So, the Glitter Boy is the best sniper in Rifts only after being tampered with by a Techno-Wizard?

Am I the only one who sees the fail in that?

I mean, you might as well put Invisibility: Superior on a killer satellite and use that as your sniper. or a Dragon Dreadnaught. Or a Juggernaut Hover Tank.

anyway, i re-iterate, the Paratrooper is the way to go.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:anyway, i re-iterate, the Paratrooper is the way to go.

I Also like the Vintex RCC as an out of the box sniper, as they are essentially the Paratrooper RCC.

Yeah - let's look at a VIDEO of that and we'll see how much of that plasma (not fire, but plasma) is visible at full motion. The answer? Not that much.

http://www.onrglobal.navy.mil/railgun/railgunSM.wmv

Further, that is a 150mm projectile. It's a LOT bigger than the one from the GB and it's faster as well.

So this is not in favor of your argument.

/Sub

I say a Psi-Ghost would rack up some nasty kills. Makes a few shots with cover goes through a few walls or wait awhile, then set up again for a few more shots or catch the target in using bathroom, showering or sleeping. Find a really concealed spot meditate to regain some I.S.P. and back out hunting. Great for infiltration, concealment, snipping and if they have demolition skills they could get to nearly anyone.

Lobo wrote:You're grasping at straws now between fire and plasma. It's all very visible, there was a huge vapor trail (BTW The vapor trail is what spotters use to track a sniper's shot and help guide him to to his target on subsequent shots) and lots of disturbance of the local area.

There were neither. There is no evidence of disturbance, and there is no evidence of a vapor trail.

Besides they never even showed a good angle so you could see the fire bloom at normal speed except for the bleed through from escaping fire in the enclosed testing environment(it was tested inside a giant rectangular box). The outdoor testing between the 2 buildings kicked up enough debris and caused such a huge vapor trail that it would have obscured 1 of those buildings entirely.

Let's see the video of the outdoor testing, mkay? OK - it was done in a DUSTY area - wow. Amazing! What if it was done in a grassy area - do you think the response would've been a bit different?

That 150mm projectile is only 30% faster than a GB round

Yes, as stated - faster and larger. The larger the item is, the more work is expended in making it move.

and I would estimate a GB round to be about 90-100mm based on the pics.

You would be wrong. Look at the pictures in the RMB/RUE - it's 7" long and less than 1/3 its length in diameter, so we're looking at something closer to 1.5" to 2" (38mm to 51mm) than 3.5" to 4" (90mm-100mm) in diameter.

This video is similar enough to a GB's performance to be relevant and show just how visible a boom gun blast would be.

This projectile would require orders of magnitude more energy to propel than would the GB flechettes. Assuming only a 9" (228mm) length (it's a LOT longer than 4 times it's diameter, but it's also not a cylinder) for the 150mm projectile in the video, it would have a total volume of 4,030,714 cubic millimeters. A 7" long, 2" in diameter cylinder would only have a volume of 1,455,074 cubic millimeters.

Assuming that the relative masses are similar, the 150mm projectile weighs 2.77 times what the GB round weighs (and that assumes that the GB round is 2" in diameter, which is not likely). Do you really think that the same energy is expended in firing them both?

Yeah, I don't either - particularly when the larger projectile is moving 30% faster than the smaller one.

Then there's the jets firing...

Yes, and how long do they fire? Exactly long enough to muffle the knockback, or an instant.

/Sub

Lobo wrote:

runebeo wrote:I say a Psi-Ghost would rack up some nasty kills. Makes a few shots with cover goes through a few walls or wait awhile, then set up again for a few more shots or catch the target in using bathroom, showering or sleeping. Find a really concealed spot meditate to regain some I.S.P. and back out hunting. Great for infiltration, concealment, snipping and if they have demolition skills they could get to nearly anyone.

I have a Psi-Ghost that carries a Sniper rifle and does snipe. He is very bad ass! Only problem I ever ran into was the severe weight limit on the gear I can carry makes it hard for me to fulfill all the conditions of a Sniper and it's hard for me to find a good Spotter who can keep up unless they are a Psi-Ghost too haha.

Theres a really lightweight retractable sniper rifle in merc ops so you could carry more. If only a psychic second sight was available or buy a scroll of animal familiar and bond with a hawk or crow could give you a nice spotter.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:So, the Glitter Boy is the best sniper in Rifts only after being tampered with by a Techno-Wizard?

Even a TW modified GB is still artillery.

Just a mage putting a globe of silence around the barrel could really come in handy. Cast Beat Insurmountably Odds on the pilot for a real long range shot.

Lobo wrote:Sub you think the giant walking, jet thruster firing, cannon booming tank can be stealthy enough to be a great sniper. I (and it seems many others) disagree.

Let's see, with camouflage (the spell), invis superior, and globe of silence we have no sound and limited to no visibility, depending on when one looks.

You also believe you will always be able to fire from 2 miles off but that's highly unlikely in a real sniping scenario unless you are in open country.

I did not ever say that I will always be able to fire from 2 miles off. I didn't even hint at it. For that matter, I didn't say the GB is the best - all I've said is that it can be camouflaged easily, and it can.

You think your GB sniper will never be around dust or other debris to give away your position, also highly unlikely. (BTW open country usually has LOTS of dust)

I didn't say that it would never be around dust. I said that the circumstances under which it would be functional as a sniper are those in which it is at full range and in surrounding vegetation. With the camouflage spell added on, in and of itself, it'd not be seen. In fact, if he was just standing in grass with the camouflage spell at 2 miles he'd not be seen.

You have to heavily modify it with TW enhancements just to get it in position. That right there says GB fails as a Sniper since you can't field them in any useful numbers.

I didn't say it's the best of them, just that it's functional as one.

You believe your enemy will be dumb and unable to locate or hunt you down. Yeah most people that underestimate their enemy, wind up dead.

You overestimate the abilities of human beings to a ridiculous point.

In short your GB Sniper only works in a perfect scenario within a specific environment, after extensive magic retooling using a magic/psychic GB pilot and against a poorly trained, undisciplined and under equipped enemy. Yet we're somehow supposed to be convinced that he's the Rifts world's best sniper. We'll just have to agree to disagree Sub.

Not poorly trained, undisciplined, or under equipped. Just not all equipped with telescopic vision. Again, I also did not say he's the best sniper. All I've said is that he's capable of being one.

/Sub

Lobo wrote:Just noticed that question about HtH bonuses applying to range. Page 32 of the RGMG says HtH bonuses do not apply to modern weapons like guns and missiles.

Damn - my GMGs are still in CA. I'll have to re-read it later unless you can PM the specific text and that surrounding it to me (I imagine everyone here knows for a fact that I own (several) legal copies of the GMG and am not seeking pirated information).

I say that because Kev *does* include such bonuses in his own games. I admit that such could be a house ruling that he uses, but I'd like to see the background on it is all.

/Sub

Lobo wrote:Sub the title of the thread is "Best Rifts Sniper?". If you don't think a GB is the 'best Rifts sniper' then why have you been pushing it so hard? Lots of things are 'capable' of sniping but whether they can do the job well enough to be among the "best" is another matter. My mother armed with a good rifle is capable of sniping (she's a real good shot so don't tick her off haha) but she would be among the best snipers of the world.

Subjugator wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, to some of the other posters, what difference does it make what HtH skill your sniper has? Surely you are not applying your HtH Strike skill to your ranged attacks? If anything I would prefer Commando dor the Auto-Dodge, assuming the character in question is 5th level or higher.

Where does it say ordinary strike bonuses do not apply to ranged attacks? Yes, Assassin gives differing bonuses to strike with guns, but that doesn't necessarily mean (it can, but does not have to) that the other bonuses don't apply to guns. It could mean that the specific bonuses in question (i.e. given at that specific level) apply specifically to HtH or to guns.

/Sub

Just noticed that question about HtH bonuses applying to range. Page 32 of the RGMG says HtH bonuses do not apply to modern weapons like guns and missiles.

I don't recall saying that.

I've always played that HtoH strike bonuses do not apply to guns.

RMB, p33, under Weapon Proficiencies wrote:Do not add this strike bonus to your character's hand to hand or combat skill bonuses to strike.

The RMB reference could be inferred to mean "don't add your WP Energy Pistol strike bonus to a punch," but I've never taken it that way. I've always taken it as "don't combine those bonuses, ever."

Sourcebook 1 (original), p7 wrote:No. Physical Prowess (P.P.) bonuses count only in hand to hand combat and weapons like swords, knives, clubs, spears, etc., and also apply to thrown weapons.

The SB1 is not a perfect reference since it refers to PP and not HtoH, but it's consistent with the following two:

RGMG, p33 wrote:No, for modern weapons; i.e. guns and missiles. The W.P. itself presents the only applicable shooting/strike bonus.

RUE, p361 wrote: The only bonuses that apply to using guns and other ranged weapons are the specific Weapon Proficiency, Sniping skill bonus if the character has that skill, any bonus from the weapon itself, and the ones that follow...

(Italics in originals.)

Also, this is one thing that makes Gunslingers special... they get a minor strike bonus from having a high PP.

But HtoH Assassin does give +1 to strike with guns specifically, at levels 8, 11 and 15. An extra +3 to strike with guns is better than Commando's weak auto-dodge in my mind, particularly for a sniper.

Agreed, the railguns, especially the high calibre ones, are dead out if you want to remain unobserved. The small test gun in Subjugator's video created enough of a shock wave that the camera on the outside was rocked - and given the scale of the ladder in the shot, the camera was probably a good distance away (I want to say something like 30 to 50 feet) so that would mean that any dust, snow, water or vegetation in and around the shooter would be significantly disturbed creating a very obvious tell to anyone who happened to look in the general direction at the time or shortly thereafter. Add to this the superheated outer skin of the projectile turning into plasma as it travels through the atmosphere and there will be a pretty good trace back to the origin of the shot.

Lower velocity projectile weapons usually also have a firing signature of note and generally lack the power to crack MDC armour or MDC skulls. Explosive ammunition might help mitigate this without making it easier to detect where the sniper is, but it takes the totally undetected shot out of the picture.

So that brings us around to energy weapons.

The charged particle weapons (P-Beams and Ion Weapons) and charged matter weapons (Plasma) all will have notable firing signatures (if only from superheating the air between them and the target) and also suffer from a very limited range in Earth's atmosphere, making it harder to score those beautiful long range shots that everyone thinks is the snipers bread and butter (most snipers engage their targets at much closer ranges, but that's beside the point).

Then we have the dream weapon of the Rifts Earth sniper, the laser. Supremely accurate, incredibly long ranged and very difficult to detect, the laser has pretty much all the sniper wants. It's also available in a variety of sizes and power levels from concealable sidearm to longarm to anti-tank weapon.

So I don't know what the best sniper on Rifts Earth is, but I can tell you what his primary weapon probably will be.

You know, I went looking through all my books(and thats alot) and I am sincerely disappointed that most "sniper" weapons are basicly just a different looking rifle. They rarely do any more damage than anything, usually do less damage overall, and have average range compared to regular combat rifles. IE They. Suck. Balls. I can't stand it, you have to go to SA just to find a gun that would qualify. Merc Ops does have a colapsable, and due to its nature, I find its damage and range to be sufficient. Unfortunately almost all other "sniping rifles" are somewhat subpar to regular combat rifles. We need more sniper rifles, and maybe a sniper pistol. For kicks.

It's cheating a little, but the best sniper rifle would be a TW version of the 6th level spell Power Bolt. If built at 10th Level, it would inflict 5D6+20 MD with a range of 2600 feet. And since the primary stone is cheap (Turquoise at $240 / carat) it's very easy to bring the activation cost way down and store multiple shots.

Since just about any OCC that works as a sniper can also have minor or major psionics, powering it shouldn't be an issue.

But that's all off topic a bit. I still maintain that the best sniper would be a Crazy.

Mack wrote:I still maintain that the best sniper would be a Crazy.

As long as he has the right insanities, I guess.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:I still maintain that the best sniper would be a Crazy.

As long as he has the right insanities, I guess.

Wholeheartedly agree. Some would be completely inappropriate. But as long as they were not contrary, the other abilities (such as perfect vision out to 2 miles, enhanced hearing, psionics, and access to TW weapons) would be invaluable.

Mack wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:I still maintain that the best sniper would be a Crazy.

As long as he has the right insanities, I guess.

Wholeheartedly agree. Some would be completely inappropriate. But as long as they were not contrary, the other abilities (such as perfect vision out to 2 miles, enhanced hearing, psionics, and access to TW weapons) would be invaluable.

True enough.
Even the enhanced sense of smell would let you hunt down targets.
Crazies are often underestimated.

but I gave you a disciplined monastic warrior who uses tech and psychic gimmicks to make himself invisible to enemies, why do you like other peoples and hate mine?

rat_bastard wrote:but I gave you a disciplined monastic warrior who uses tech and psychic gimmicks to make himself invisible to enemies, why do you like other peoples and hate mine?

Because you're Dutch.

Mack wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:but I gave you a disciplined monastic warrior who uses tech and psychic gimmicks to make himself invisible to enemies, why do you like other peoples and hate mine?

Because you're Dutch.

I'm Irish dammit, quit jewing me.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

Lobo wrote:I have included a link to a video of a tank firing. It kicks up a huge cloud of dust that takes about 10-15 seconds to dissipate (which was right on with how I remembered it haha).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42t4FBJMvp4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtank%2Bfiring%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&feature=player_embedded

Yeah - if you stand in a pile of dust and fire it, dust will kick up. As I said though, he'd be standing in vegetation. I showed what happens when a gun 50mm larger than what I assume is on that tank is fired when in vegetation. A big boom and a little cloud - a lot of which is from the powder itself, which isn't a problem with this gun.

/Sub

If he stands in vegetation, there will still be visible movement when he fires.
If nothing else, there are those jets on back that fire to compensate.

The entire argument is moot, though, because the Glitterboy simply isn't a sniper, no matter how effective. It's artillery. You couldn't logically call a Glitterboy pilot a sniper any more than you could call a tank pilot a sniper. The title doesn't fit.

YOU BETTER CHECK YO SELF BEFORE YOU WRECK YO SELF, FOOL!

kidding.

Seriously though, tanks back in WWII were referred to as "snipers" for their qualities. Sniper is defined as a marksman shooting from a concealed position capable of hitting targets further than the capabilities of regular personnel.

Seems to me that this "artillery piece" you're referring to fits that role exceptionally. I mean, 2 miles offers the ability to hit targets further away than regular PA, while it's humanoid form offers the rather subjective advantage of concealability that the average Spider-Skull Walker or Firestorm Mobile Fortress lacks. Finally, the Glitterboy pilot does get more ranged attack bonuses than most other PA pilots, so I'd say he's a marksman in comparison.

Though I wouldn't take a GB as a sniper, I do believe it can be considered one - even if Subjugator thinks that vegetation equals "no dust" (which is only true if it's raining).

Sub, watch a tree fall in the forest some time (on a dry day) and tell me there's no dust.

Dog_O_War wrote:Seriously though, tanks back in WWII were referred to as "snipers" for their qualities.

Source?

Sniper is defined as a marksman shooting from a concealed position capable of hitting targets further than the capabilities of regular personnel.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marksman
2. Military.
a. the lowest rating in rifle marksmanship, below that of sharpshooter and expert.
b. a person who has achieved such a rating.

Seems to me that this "artillery piece" you're referring to fits that role exceptionally.

A smart-missile fired from orbit would hit the mark even better.
But it's not a sniper either.