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Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:54 pm**

Lenwen wrote:Which makes me laugh. Think about it .. The reason givin for the Tech lvl of the CS is "cause thier always at war " . In reality thier always simply devistating littler area's of pocket towns that have no real chance .

What's so laughable? US had great increase in tech during the cold war. There wasn't any actual war. CS is "always at war", dispite the fact there isn't much that can stand up to them.

yet thier tech has been stagnent long enough for the CS to "close the gap" Am I the only person on the baords who see's this as relativly stupid ?

Who says their tech is stagnant?

Even with a military of 10-15 million strong and divisional rotations of said millions , Those SAME troops will likely see combat no less then 2 or 3 rotational times . 80 years long war . Rotational units every 6 months to a year ... One soilder does 5 years , that means on average of 2 or 3 combat cycles .. and more then likely more .. meaning regaurdless of how you look at it that NGR military is going to be on average higher lvl then the CS military .

Not regardless. There are plenty of ways to gain levels beyond just combat. Nothing says anything about more or less activity from one fraction or the other. For example, nothing says the average NGR soldier is seeing more action than the CS. CS may not have a huge army at their door, but that doesn't mean the soldiers arn't active. In fact, the books seem to point that the average life of the CS soldier (Mainly patrolling and facing things in the magic zone) suggest otherwise. Just because they are not in a direct war leaves nothing to say they see less combat.

And the old saying of the NGR does not fight Tech types .. thats out the window , Am I the only person that has read NGR world book ? Gargoyals using giant sized rail guns , Brodkil who use tech weapons , Gargoyalites using friggen Robots an other nasty stuff ...

Simply put the NGR is going up against a multi-functionality force . Its going against Magical / Tech weilding forces and its not only holding its own but currently it has the upper hand.

Or am I the only person that has read this ?

I don't get that the G. empire has massive amounts of robots and PA. I don't get from reading that the NGR has been facing them on any sort of regularity.

Gargoyal armor/weapons = Vanguard.

You are right about Brodkil using weapons and tech, but I still (from reading their race, and a lack of tactics) they use them in brunt force, rather than using them as subtle ways. Is this the right way to view them? No. Is it the wrong way? No.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:06 am**

Lenwen wrote:Ok so my pointing out that the CS war machine reveled in CWC world book 11 would not be the same thing with out , the Help of the NGR .. Is confrontational ?

No, that is not. The sentiment is, in my opinion, wrong, but that is not confrontational.

Lenwen wrote:Or me calling a CS fanboy in general a CS fanboy .. is the part that is confrontational ?
I will be the first to admit , I do not like the CS . Will not like the CS . Thier flat out and out the Villians EVERYONE loves to hate .. Words written by KS himself , Time and time an time again .

Using someone's preference for a certain faction as an attack on them *IS* confrontational. Period. You would seriously get further in your arguements if you used a bit of respect and kindness to do it. I don't have to dislike or disrespect your view to disagree with you. I do, however, have to acknowledge that you will not always agree with me, and that you are welcome to disagree as long as you are not attacking me, or anyone else for that matter. You have those same responsibilities, in my opinion.

Also as to the comment that people love to hate the CS, the simple fact is, they are the single reason there is a semblence of security and stability in North America. Can you at least acknowledge that BASIC fact?

Lenwen wrote:Can I change opinions of some people on here about the CS ? Absolutly not . But neither will I change my mindset about them . Nor will I allow anyone to give them anything that is not cannon an then try to pass it off as canon. The fact that some people on these baords are flat out and out never willing to give an inch about the CS or thier military is the very reason I wont give them an inch either . If its not canon .. its not canon .. it is what it is .. And a CS fanboy .. is what it is .. when thier a fanboy .. If it walks like a duck , Quacks like a duck , Well .. you get it ..

Okay, so aside from the fact we are talking about a scenario that would never happen in canon, and that if it happened it would be in the future, when both factions would have time to advance their technology. The NGR is ahead of the CS, and would likely stay ahead. The CS is, frankly, more ruthless and would stoop to pretty much whatever it took to win. The CS would end up holding the line, simply because they would convince all of their soldiers that the NGR was consorting with monsters, and that they are a threat to all of humanity. Oh, am I giving them something they don't have, like one of the best Propaganda departments in the world? Nah, they have that, pretty well hands down.

Lenwen wrote:An I've seen alotta stuff "Givin" to the CS threw said fanboy base .. with out any merit what so ever .
I am here simply to make sure my opinion an voice is heard , Regaurdless of wether it makes sence to others or not .
And in a War in a situation where the NGR / CS faced ONLY each other ..

Lenwen wrote:The CS would be crushed by many things .(that I won't bother to relist)

The CS would neither be crushed, nor would the NGR be crushed. There would be no way for either side to have a decisive quick battle. Neither force could get close enough to the main sites of the other without using terroristic tactics. The CS is the one who would be quicker to do that. They have fantacism that the NGR just doesn't have. the NGR has patriots, but not fanatics, except when it comes to non-humans and perhaps magic users. Another human supremicist nation? They are our brothers, not evil creatures who must die. The CS Propaganda department could manage that sort of fanatacism, but I don't think they would get to that point. Namely because of the entire premise of this thread not being possible.

Lenwen wrote:Thats just how I personally see the whole thing , If you dont see it as such thats your opinion. But even reading what everything says about the shortage of resources flat out says in the next so many months .. not right now ..

You're welcome to hold that opinion, and run it that way in your games, but the simple fact is you will never find your opinion echoed in the books. The two biggest human powers will not be destroyed, simply because then they have to come up with their replacement, and that's not happening. No more than the Kreeghor Empire is going to be defeated in the 3 galaxies, or that the Splugorth are going to be driven out of Atlantis, or all the vampire intelligences in Mexico be slain. RPGs run off their villains, and as much as you might like to see them go down, as soon as you do, you have to write in ANOTHER villain.

wolfe wrote:ARCHIE isn't a wild card for the CS. Archie's goal is to become master of the world, he's not going to waste the opportunity that this presents him by saving the CS, letting the CS military get its ass handed to it serves Archie a lot more then trying to save it. With the CS threats around it neutralized (for this exercise) it's only a matter of time before the CS finds ARCHIE and Archie has no delusions of what would happen. Archie would really welcome the destruction of the CS military. Archie would welcome the opportunity to rebuild them. He would also take advantage of the situation to ananlyze any NGR gear he can optain, especially drones. The only time I can see Archie really helping the CS is if Atlantis had started some kind of war and then he'd most likely do it with Shemarrians and build more bots looking like CS assets.

No, not to help the CS. To help maintain stability. There is a very large difference between the two statements. He would work in the shadows to make the war unpalletable for both of them. And I agree in the only way he would help them directly and overtly would be against the Splugorth. And I never said he wouldn't exploit the situation, just that he wouldn't let it drag on without working to end it.

wolfe wrote:Really need to stop this "bots walking across the bottom", it's an extremely bad idea and could never work.
If the bots survived the pressure, they would just sink into the floor of the ocean. If they somehow managed to get them self unstuck they still have the continental shelves to climb down then hopefully be able to climb back up climb back up again and repeat with every single cliff they come across and they still have all the lovely nasties down below to deal with as well, it would be vastly more efficient to build a transport to take them there.

You forgot the VERY next line, where I called it an impossible situation posted by others. I agree it won't work, besides, Archie has subs and Mechanoid tech, and would use them.

Wolfe wrote:
The CS is very good at mutually assured destruction

No, no they are not. They have fought just a couple of wars, they barely won one and wasn't doing so great with the other before the cease to hostilities was called. There is nothing they have done during those two wars that would give reason to say "The CS is very good at mutually assured destruction".

You seriously think that if the CS was in a no win, no retreat, no surrender situation they wouldn't resort to Tac nukes? I don't buy them using them for a first strike situation, but definately a "last resort because Chi-town is being beseiged and is about to fall." Eh, in the end, this was part of trying to make a point that fell on deaf ears, rather than an actual independant point.

dark brandon wrote:here's another thought. NGR has been at war for 80 years against the same opponent. This, instead of a boon, could hamper them, as they are use to fighting floods of monsters, not tech enemies. They could very well have to build, from the ground up their entire battle plan. Could this be? Yes, it could also be no. There is no right way to answer this.
Another thought, is (I haven't found it) that NGR troops are going to be higher levels. Is that canon? I don't think it is. Can we assume it is? Maybe. On one hand, yeah, 80 years of fighting. On another, maybe the reason the NGR has so many is because they trade out people in much more rapid succession. People aren't kept on the battle fronts quite as long. So, NGR will have more troops of the same level. This is also feasible.

I don't see this being the case. While I don't buy Lenwen's highly inflated level assessments for average, I do think they will be higher level - the same for your average line troop, 2-3 for your elite troops and power armor/robot pilots. However, they won't have the pure hatred the CS is going to flame into their troops - not that I have a clue what angle they would use, but it is part of the CS MO. They use fear and hatred as implements to sharpen their troops to a razor edge.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:22 am**

wolfe wrote:
most importantly no anti-submarine assets to counter CS Orca and Shark attack subs.

You can stop saying that as the XS-30 attack sub shows you are obviously wrong.

There's a difference between have in submarines and having anti-submarine assets. In a contest between an exploration sub with a few weapon add-ons like the XM 30 and a dedicated attack platform like the Orca. The Orca wins hands down.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:39 am**

Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
most importantly no anti-submarine assets to counter CS Orca and Shark attack subs.

You can stop saying that as the XS-30 attack sub shows you are obviously wrong.

There's a difference between have in submarines and having anti-submarine assets. In a contest between an exploration sub with a few weapon add-ons like the XM 30 and a dedicated attack platform like the Orca. The Orca wins hands down.

CS Orca
- 450 mdc for the Bridge Tower .
- 850 mdc for the main body .
- is 396ft long . Its not going to be moving anywhere fast ...
NGR.
XS-30
- 1,200 MDC for the main body .
Weapon systems range from 4d6x10 to 1d4x8 per double blast .
It is crewed by two people . With room to transport 7-10 troops in light P.A.
- It is 65 ft long an is going to run rings around the CS Orca .

Conclusion - Yes the Orca is a Good Sub . But the fact of the matter is that you were wrong Samored II .
The NGR does in fact have anti submarine assets ..

** EDIT **
And thats not including the fact that there are going to be running with around two or three of those in a small unit .
They would not be out there alone .

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:45 am**

Balabanto wrote:What you have is 1.6 million Samas in Storage. However, there aren't that many people capable of piloting the SAMAS. Unless the coalition drafts D-Bees, which will never happen, all you have is replacements for pilots who are likely prisoners of war.

Yes, there are 1.6 million SAMAS in storage.
There are also 1.6 million active, which means that there are at or around that many qualified personel using them.
That's 3.2 million total - the number given in the description.

Balabanto wrote:What you also need to consider on the Coalition side is Skelebots. Why the !@#$@ do you care about SAMAS?

Because there are 1.6 million active SAMAS and SAMAS pilots in NA alone, working exclusively for the CS.

Balabanto wrote:Devote every Coalition facility to Skelebots, have them march across the bottom of the ocean (They're soulless, so the Lord of the Deep doesn't really care). Figure 50 percent of your limitless army of Skelebots reaches the NGR Navy and softens it up.

Or, you know - you could fly them over in Death's Heads; they do travel at mach.

Balabanto wrote:That's the Coalition's best chance to win, and it's STILL probably not enough.

Well, given that a Dragoon rush won't beat there already up and running Siege Tanks, I don't think that Starcraft strat will do it. Best to hit them where they are weakest.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:50 am**

Lenwen wrote:
Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
most importantly no anti-submarine assets to counter CS Orca and Shark attack subs.

You can stop saying that as the XS-30 attack sub shows you are obviously wrong.

There's a difference between have in submarines and having anti-submarine assets. In a contest between an exploration sub with a few weapon add-ons like the XM 30 and a dedicated attack platform like the Orca. The Orca wins hands down.

CS Orca
- 450 mdc for the Bridge Tower .
- 850 mdc for the main body .
- is 396ft long . Its not going to be moving anywhere fast ...
NGR.
XS-30
- 1,200 MDC for the main body .
Weapon systems range from 4d6x10 to 1d4x8 per double blast .
It is crewed by two people . With room to transport 7-10 troops in light P.A.
- It is 65 ft long an is going to run rings around the CS Orca .

Conclusion - Yes the Orca is a Good Sub . But the fact of the matter is that you were wrong Samored II .
The NGR does in fact have anti submarine assets ..

Except that an Orca carries sea-adapted PA and skelebots, which makes it both a multi-target opponent and an opposition that has greater fire-power, as well as the ability to become near-invisible to detection, I'm not seeing these anti-sub assets getting the jump on an Orca - that's kind of its thing.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:01 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
most importantly no anti-submarine assets to counter CS Orca and Shark attack subs.

You can stop saying that as the XS-30 attack sub shows you are obviously wrong.

There's a difference between have in submarines and having anti-submarine assets. In a contest between an exploration sub with a few weapon add-ons like the XM 30 and a dedicated attack platform like the Orca. The Orca wins hands down.

CS Orca
- 450 mdc for the Bridge Tower .
- 850 mdc for the main body .
- is 396ft long . Its not going to be moving anywhere fast ...
NGR.
XS-30
- 1,200 MDC for the main body .
Weapon systems range from 4d6x10 to 1d4x8 per double blast .
It is crewed by two people . With room to transport 7-10 troops in light P.A.
- It is 65 ft long an is going to run rings around the CS Orca .

Conclusion - Yes the Orca is a Good Sub . But the fact of the matter is that you were wrong Samored II .
The NGR does in fact have anti submarine assets ..

Except that an Orca carries sea-adapted PA and skelebots, which makes it both a multi-target opponent and an opposition that has greater fire-power, as well as the ability to become near-invisible to detection, I'm not seeing these anti-sub assets getting the jump on an Orca - that's kind of its thing.

Understood .
But the Orca only comes with a MAX number of Samas / Sea Samas as being 28 Total . And thats ONLY if they went all out Samas .. thats the whole lot of the extra troops it carries .
Two XS-30's would easily be the match for this Orca sub. And in my estimation take the Orca close to 8 outta 10 times in a fight.

Course ,Many on here think I am heavily favoring the NGR . And I very well could be wrong . But the whole topic on this very scenario was that the NGR had no dedicated anti-sub assets .. To which I say was wrong . The NGR has a better attack sub then the CS's main sub class Orca ..

One thing . After rereading the orca description . It does not state anywhere in the overall description that the Orca carries any Skelebots what so ever . So that is wrong.

**EDIT**
That is not to say that they could not fit some Skelebots in the Sub , Mearly that it is not written of and if you would rather sack the 40 regular troops ( standard compliment ) for the Skelebots or the Samas for the skelebots that would be easily doable , but rather .. not smart at all ...

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:15 pm**

*SIGH*

Len, Dog you do realise that both of your arguments are broken right?

You cant give one side an advantage it doesnt have just by saying it can modify a cargo plane then say the other side cant build a missile capable of shooting it down.

The Jager is only slightly tougher than the original SAMAS (50 MDC to be exact), but has a much better selection of weapon systems that are add-ons, out of the box the Jager is marginally better than a SAMAS.

The naval situations seems a bit interesting, the NGR has "5 with 3 more under construction" (pg. 207 of Underseas) Poseidon carriers and maybe I missed it but where does it say the NGR has the "3rd largest navy"? Where is this vast fleet of ships at? The CS Navy book gives numbers of vessels and fleet positions, the Underseas book only lists a number for the Poseidon.

Also as has been mentioned before it only stats in a couple places that the NGR has "given" the CS technology, saying that the NGR gave them "all" the tech is no more canon than someone giving them stuff that isnt listed.

Also 25 million people being spread through 6 cities and being less than 30% does NOT equal "well over 100 million" its about 80 million.

As to the average soldier being a higher level, thats just mere speculation on your part Len nowhere is it stated that the "average" NGR Grunt is significantly higher level than the "average" CS Grunt.

Dog...

I dont even want to get into it.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:17 pm**

Nxla666 wrote: *SIGH*

Len, Dog you do realise that both of your arguments are broken right?

Nxla666 wrote: You cant give one side an advantage it doesnt have just by saying it can modify a cargo plane then say the other side cant build a missile capable of shooting it down.

The fact is the NGR has the capability to manufacture that Cargo jet. They could just as easily "modify" that cargo plane to carry anything they wanted to be carried.
And Modifying 1 aircraft does not equate to a tech lvl jump .
And a tech lvl jump is exactly what the CS would need in terms of as you said "build" a better Missle.
Or would you still say I was wrong cause clearly modifying is exactly like saying building something 100% new ?

Nxla666 wrote: The Jager is only slightly tougher than the original SAMAS (50 MDC to be exact), but has a much better selection of weapon systems that are add-ons, out of the box the Jager is marginally better than a SAMAS.

Actually because of the different weapons systems that the Jager can support additionally with its own rifle of which ever is assigned to it the Jager is in my opinion 10x more deadly then the Samas. The Jager equiped with the YX-871mm Missle drum is the equal to no less then 24 old style samas , or 13 Super Samas , for overall DPS output .

Nxla666 wrote:The naval situations seems a bit interesting, the NGR has "5 with 3 more under construction" (pg. 207 of Underseas) Poseidon carriers and maybe I missed it but where does it say the NGR has the "3rd largest navy"? Where is this vast fleet of ships at? The CS Navy book gives numbers of vessels and fleet positions, the Underseas book only lists a number for the Poseidon.

Each of those Subs can carry up to 6,400 total troops . There are 5 with 3 more being built which puts just those subs naval population at 51,200 for just 8 subs .

Reviewing the CS navy from its own book , I see that Only the 2nd an 3rd fleets are still alive.
2nd fleet has 3 Carriers Total troop compliment is 6,194 total ( this does not count the "resources" just manpower) which equates to 18,582 personel
1 Amphibious warship , equal to 1,950 total personal
2 Balistic Submarines , equal to 314 total troops .
First Fleet total Population off of just the boats is 20,846 total Naval boats population., Not including the Bases.

Third Fleet has .. no known capital ships what so ever. And could not put up a reliable defense against even just 1 NGR posiden class sub carrier .

First Fleet is half of what it once was and currently uses 10% of the naval fleet of the 2nd fleet . With out reliable hard numbers to determin the overall strenth of the 1st fleet , There is no way the first fleet is capable of a full blow press of any kind of defense against even just 1 NGR posiden class sub carrier .

In my estimation the only fleet that could possibly take out even just a single NGR Posiden class sub carrier would be ( and even then it would be a HUGE toss up considering the power of the Posiden ) the Second fleet.
First an Third fleets would simply be overwhelmed ..

Nxla666 wrote: Also as has been mentioned before it only stats in a couple places that the NGR has "given" the CS technology, saying that the NGR gave them "all" the tech is no more canon than someone giving them stuff that isnt listed.

The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Nxla666 wrote: Also 25 million people being spread through 6 cities and being less than 30% does NOT equal "well over 100 million" its about 80 million.

Its 75.757576. Or bout 75+million. Which would equate thier army , Navy and Airforce to be several times that of the CS on every lvl .

The NGR has a larger population then the ENTIRE North American Continent Combined ...( minus Xitixic of course )

Nxla666 wrote: As to the average soldier being a higher level, thats just mere speculation on your part Len nowhere is it stated that the "average" NGR Grunt is significantly higher level than the "average" CS Grunt.

Your right , I can not find where I "thought" I might have seen that quote. But the fact of the matter is that the NGR military is in a war that is 80 years old . Which do you honestly think is going to be more suited to war? NGR who is in a actual war for its survival ? Or the CS , who basically has never had to do the whole battle for survival outside of the original FoM attack which was how many decades ago ? The Tolkeen conflict was a joke and everyone knows it . And the "patroling" of the CS territory is only going to garner so much xp per soilder ..
But a war .. now THATS a way to grind out lvls .. no matter who you face.

Nxla666 wrote:Dog...

oooooook...

Nxla666 wrote:I dont even want to get into it.

ok sorry then I will not repost a reply next time .

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:22 pm**

Nxla666 wrote:*SIGH*

Len, Dog you do realise that both of your arguments are broken right?

You cant give one side an advantage it doesnt have just by saying it can modify a cargo plane then say the other side cant build a missile capable of shooting it down.

I'm not sure where my arguement broke. As well, someone else noted that a missile already in motion before being fired retains that speed, and would gain additional speed, so even in-chase a missile is more than capable of striking any fast-moving bomber.

Nxla666 wrote:The Jager is only slightly tougher than the original SAMAS (50 MDC to be exact), but has a much better selection of weapon systems that are add-ons, out of the box the Jager is marginally better than a SAMAS.

Yes, it is. But it also costs marginally more to produce, and there are marginally less Jager than there are SAMAS, with nothing to mention of the number of pilots there are available for each. Finally, the weapon-selection (the shoulder-mounted weapons) of the Jager is worth nearly 6 SAMAS in price, but not worth them in cost-effectiveness.

Nxla666 wrote:Dog...

I'm not sure if you're looking for a reinforcement of your obsevations, or if you're not understanding my position and thinking on this subject. If it's a reinforcement, then you have it as I agree with your observations (for the most part).

Lenwen wrote:**EDIT**
That is not to say that they could not fit some Skelebots in the Sub , Mearly that it is not written of and if you would rather sack the 40 regular troops ( standard compliment ) for the Skelebots or the Samas for the skelebots that would be easily doable , but rather .. not smart at all ...

Sorry, I meant Spider-Skull Walkers (that was a crazy robot mix-up).

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:29 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:
Lenwen wrote:**EDIT**
That is not to say that they could not fit some Skelebots in the Sub , Mearly that it is not written of and if you would rather sack the 40 regular troops ( standard compliment ) for the Skelebots or the Samas for the skelebots that would be easily doable , but rather .. not smart at all ...

Sorry, I meant Spider-Skull Walkers (that was a crazy robot mix-up).

And were talking about the "Orca" class subs right ? Or which sub are you talkin bout cause we were originally talkin about the Orca class ..

After rereadin every description for every sub available for the CS , I have yet to read anything that any of them can carry Spider-Skull Walkers at all . Could ya point me to the right book an pg# perhaps?

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:36 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
Dog_O_War wrote:
Lenwen wrote:**EDIT**
That is not to say that they could not fit some Skelebots in the Sub , Mearly that it is not written of and if you would rather sack the 40 regular troops ( standard compliment ) for the Skelebots or the Samas for the skelebots that would be easily doable , but rather .. not smart at all ...

Sorry, I meant Spider-Skull Walkers (that was a crazy robot mix-up).

And were talking about the "Orca" class subs right ? Or which sub are you talkin bout cause we were originally talkin about the Orca class ..

After rereadin every description for every sub available for the CS , I have yet to read anything that any of them can carry Spider-Skull Walkers at all . Could ya point me to the right book an pg# perhaps?

It's the Orca.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:47 pm**

Uh, the bots can survive the pressure. They're MDC.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:39 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
Dog_O_War wrote:
Lenwen wrote:**EDIT**
That is not to say that they could not fit some Skelebots in the Sub , Mearly that it is not written of and if you would rather sack the 40 regular troops ( standard compliment ) for the Skelebots or the Samas for the skelebots that would be easily doable , but rather .. not smart at all ...

Sorry, I meant Spider-Skull Walkers (that was a crazy robot mix-up).

And were talking about the "Orca" class subs right ? Or which sub are you talkin bout cause we were originally talkin about the Orca class ..

After rereadin every description for every sub available for the CS , I have yet to read anything that any of them can carry Spider-Skull Walkers at all . Could ya point me to the right book an pg# perhaps?

It's the Orca.

Thats a good eye , Its in the flavor text , yet not in the hard detailed /accountability of troops details ..
Yes I guess it does have 1 sea spider skull walker . haha

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm**

Lenwen wrote:The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Incorrect. Ground troop EBA uses the alloys developed by NGR, not ground PA. There is a big difference between PA and EBA.

The Dagger is what happens when CS and NGR combine forces to create something.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:44 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Incorrect. Ground troop EBA uses the alloys developed by NGR, not ground PA. There is a big difference between PA and EBA.

The Dagger is what happens when CS and NGR combine forces to create something.

Yeah, the triax engineers make a war machine and the CS designers at the kids table figure out how to put a skull on it.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:50 pm**

rat_bastard wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Incorrect. Ground troop EBA uses the alloys developed by NGR, not ground PA. There is a big difference between PA and EBA.

The Dagger is what happens when CS and NGR combine forces to create something.

Yeah, the triax engineers make a war machine and the CS designers at the kids table figure out how to put a skull on it.

Hey, pyschological warfare is what CS is good at.

Think about it. They are smaller, less advanced, less powerful than NGR, yet NGR wants the CS trade so they can say "hey, we have allied with the CS". Why? Because dispite it all, CS is well known for their ruthlessness, power, kick-butt and I don't care about your name attitude. Why? for the psychologial edge.

Hey, I mean, how "advance" can the NGR be if they have yet to realize that by simply adding a skull to your army, your enemies will far you 10% more...and that's just a cruddy skull. CS has it down to an art baby, making them feared over 150% more than normal!

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:48 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Incorrect. Ground troop EBA uses the alloys developed by NGR, not ground PA. There is a big difference between PA and EBA.

The Dagger is what happens when CS and NGR combine forces to create something.

Your right heh PA does not equate to Body armors heh . As is evidenced here.
CWC world book 11 . Pg , 99
Top of the Second paragraph ,
The overlapping plates are made of a new lightweight ceramic develped by triax and shared with the CS .

Its under the BIG BOLD lettering of "NEW CS BODY ARMORS"
And every "NEW" armor they use has this VERY helpfull stuff from Triax.
Models include but not limited to ..
CA-3 , CA-4 , CA-6C , CA-6EX(Power Armor) , CA-7 .
All armors which are the standard threw out the Coalitions military .

The CS Dagger is a beast . And because of the Help that Triax has givin to the CS the CS was then able to produce better aircraft as well . Starting with the SF-7 Talon , With out the help that Triax has offered they basically took the demands of CS higher ups an Built this bomber from scratch in thier own manufactering facilities , The CS would not have the dagger nor the SF-7 fighter .

That is HUGE ... as it says both are mainstays in the airforce of the CS now . Who knows where the Airforce of the CS would be with out those two VERY Key components.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:04 pm**

Lenwen wrote:Its under the BIG BOLD lettering of "NEW CS BODY ARMORS"
And every "NEW" armor they use has this VERY helpfull stuff from Triax.
Models include but not limited to ..
CA-3 , CA-4 , CA-6C , CA-6EX(Power Armor) , CA-7 .
All armors which are the standard threw out the Coalitions military .

Are we discussing helpful or produced? I'm under the impression that you were claiming everything created by the CS in the CWC was because of Triax. I am merely stating that nothing except for the body armor (and the Dagger) has anything to do with Triax. What you see when you look at the Super SAMAS, Striker SAMAS, Glitterboy killer are all products of CS ingenuity, not stolen or given tech from Triax.

The CS Dagger is a beast . And because of the Help that Triax has givin to the CS the CS was then able to produce better aircraft as well . Starting with the SF-7 Talon , With out the help that Triax has offered they basically took the demands of CS higher ups an Built this bomber from scratch in thier own manufactering facilities , The CS would not have the dagger nor the SF-7 fighter .

This is a good example of What's good for the goose is good for the gander, "The NGR air force is seriously considering adding the Dagger Bombers to their forces after witnessing..." It should also be noted that it was built in a cooperative effort. Each brought something to the table, so, without NGR's help, it wouldn't exist and without CS' help it wouldn't exist. So it was more than just "CS demands, Triax produces".

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:02 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:Its under the BIG BOLD lettering of "NEW CS BODY ARMORS"
And every "NEW" armor they use has this VERY helpfull stuff from Triax.
Models include but not limited to ..
CA-3 , CA-4 , CA-6C , CA-6EX(Power Armor) , CA-7 .
All armors which are the standard threw out the Coalitions military .

dark brandon wrote:Are we discussing helpful or produced? I'm under the impression that you were claiming everything created by the CS in the CWC was because of Triax. I am merely stating that nothing except for the body armor (and the Dagger) has anything to do with Triax. What you see when you look at the Super SAMAS, Striker SAMAS, Glitterboy killer are all products of CS ingenuity, not stolen or given tech from Triax.

Correct and as I said the Body Armors were in fact Triax developed .. and SHARED with the CS .. nuthing more , nuthing less as per canon.

The CS Dagger is a beast . And because of the Help that Triax has givin to the CS the CS was then able to produce better aircraft as well . Starting with the SF-7 Talon , With out the help that Triax has offered they basically took the demands of CS higher ups an Built this bomber from scratch in thier own manufactering facilities , The CS would not have the dagger nor the SF-7 fighter .

dark brandon wrote:This is a good example of What's good for the goose is good for the gander, "The NGR air force is seriously considering adding the Dagger Bombers to their forces after witnessing..." It should also be noted that it was built in a cooperative effort. Each brought something to the table, so, without NGR's help, it wouldn't exist and without CS' help it wouldn't exist. So it was more than just "CS demands, Triax produces".

Depending upon how you want to see it , The CS could not do it alone even tho they had prerifts knowledge of Stealth Planes they had neither the Tech lvl nor the Manufacturing facilities to build it themselves . So they then asked Triax to help them . Triax built the plane using thier manufacuring and thier tech . I'd say that was more or less them building the thing with the CS givin them the details in which they wanted the plane to be able to do .. or how would you say it ?

Rifts : Sourcebook 4 , pg 89.
" The problem was that even with a few models of pre rifts stealth planes , The CS was unable to produce the bomber they wanted ."

" The Navy turned again to triax to help them build one in a cooperative effort . After only 10 months , the combined design teams unvieled the first dagger bomber ."

"As a result of the advanced technology and manufacturing techniques available to Triax , the Dagger is everything the CS Navy asked for "

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:00 pm**

Lenwen wrote:Correct and as I said the Body Armors were in fact Triax developed .. and SHARED with the CS .. nuthing more , nuthing less as per canon.

Just so long as we're in agreement that the majority of things created by CS were not given to them by Triax, save for 1 plane and the EBA.

Depending upon how you want to see it , The CS could not do it alone even tho they had prerifts knowledge of Stealth Planes they had neither the Tech lvl nor the Manufacturing facilities to build it themselves . So they then asked Triax to help them . Triax built the plane using thier manufacuring and thier tech . I'd say that was more or less them building the thing with the CS givin them the details in which they wanted the plane to be able to do .. or how would you say it ?

Rifts : Sourcebook 4 , pg 89.
" The problem was that even with a few models of pre rifts stealth planes , The CS was unable to produce the bomber they wanted ."

" The Navy turned again to triax to help them build one in a cooperative effort . After only 10 months , the combined design teams unvieled the first dagger bomber ."

"As a result of the advanced technology and manufacturing techniques available to Triax , the Dagger is everything the CS Navy asked for "

I see it as a combined effort. CS technicians had the know how, the willingness and drive. They lacked computers that could read what they wanted, and material to perform as they wanted they lacked the technology to test theories. It was a CS technician that said "If we can only get 1.21 gigawatts of power we can make it shoot lasers". It was a Triax technician that said "Oh, we have that kind of flux capacitor, and if we add these wires to it, it keeps it from going back in time".

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:14 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:Correct and as I said the Body Armors were in fact Triax developed .. and SHARED with the CS .. nuthing more , nuthing less as per canon.

Just so long as we're in agreement that the majority of things created by CS were not given to them by Triax, save for 1 plane and the EBA.

Depending upon how you want to see it , The CS could not do it alone even tho they had prerifts knowledge of Stealth Planes they had neither the Tech lvl nor the Manufacturing facilities to build it themselves . So they then asked Triax to help them . Triax built the plane using thier manufacuring and thier tech . I'd say that was more or less them building the thing with the CS givin them the details in which they wanted the plane to be able to do .. or how would you say it ?

Rifts : Sourcebook 4 , pg 89.
" The problem was that even with a few models of pre rifts stealth planes , The CS was unable to produce the bomber they wanted ."

" The Navy turned again to triax to help them build one in a cooperative effort . After only 10 months , the combined design teams unvieled the first dagger bomber ."

"As a result of the advanced technology and manufacturing techniques available to Triax , the Dagger is everything the CS Navy asked for "

I see it as a combined effort. CS technicians had the know how, the willingness and drive. They lacked computers that could read what they wanted, and material to perform as they wanted they lacked the technology to test theories. It was a CS technician that said "If we can only get 1.21 gigawatts of power we can make it shoot lasers". It was a Triax technician that said "Oh, we have that kind of flux capacitor, and if we add these wires to it, it keeps it from going back in time".

Aye , Were in agreement . on the B.A. part. But its only a matter of time before all CS stuff is using Triax proven tech and armor .. Least thats how I personally see it anyways .

thats more then less then helpfull .. ACK nm ..

And I really do like that analogy heh flux capacitor heh . LOVE those movies ..

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:17 pm**

Lenwen wrote:Aye , Were in agreement . on the B.A. part. But its only a matter of time before all CS stuff is using Triax proven tech and armor .. Least thats how I personally see it anyways .

Probably, and why not. They are allies. I would forsee CS getting tech advancements while NGR gets biological engineering advancements.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:33 am**

Maby its just me or is everyone forgetting about the Lone Star Facility? Bio Weapons. Mass armys of cloned dog boys. A bio bomb NGR wide with montazumas revenge? They can inoculate all the cs troops. So far as i know NGR does not have much experience with medical field as the CS does. Yes they have the angel of death to contend with but thats cybernetics and bionics. How well are they prepared for a biological attack?

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:57 am**

Lenwen wrote:Conclusion - Yes the Orca is a Good Sub . But the fact of the matter is that you were wrong Samored II .
The NGR does in fact have anti submarine assets ..

** EDIT **
And thats not including the fact that there are going to be running with around two or three of those in a small unit .
They would not be out there alone .

A comparison of MDC levels isn't relevant. Submarine warfare is all about stealth and detection. The CS Sharks and Orcas have advanced acoustic stealth systems and passive sonar to allow them to avoid detection while finding their targets. The XM 30 has neither. The instant it turns on its active sonar (which is the ONLY type it has) the CS subs will find it (their passive sonar has 3x the range of the XM-30's active systems) and they'll slip past the NGR sub screen to hole the carriers. In the unlikely event the CS subs were detected (NGR systems are at -30%) they have decoys to distract them while they hide.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:02 am**

wolfe wrote:
Where the hades are you getting that b.s. from?

I suppose I bothered to read the entire description of the XM 30/CS Shark and Orca submarines.

The crafts designation is XS-30 Torpedo Attack Sub, type: military attack submersible, not exploration sub..
The kids like coining the phrase "epic fail", and you have seriously earned that one.

And you can roll a turd in powdered sugar, it's doesn't make it a jelly donut.

The XM 30 has no acoustic stealth, no passive sonar, no acoustic decoys and a lighter torpedo load. In short, no chance of detecting OR engaging CS submarines on ship-killer missions.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:26 am**

Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
Where the hades are you getting that b.s. from?

I suppose I bothered to read the entire description of the XM 30/CS Shark and Orca submarines.

The crafts designation is XS-30 Torpedo Attack Sub, type: military attack submersible, not exploration sub..
The kids like coining the phrase "epic fail", and you have seriously earned that one.

And you can roll a turd in powdered sugar, it's doesn't make it a jelly donut.

The XM 30 has no acoustic stealth, no passive sonar, no acoustic decoys and a lighter torpedo load. In short, no chance of detecting OR engaging CS submarines on ship-killer missions.

This is at least in my opinion , wrong . The fact of the matter is the XS-30 IS an attack sub . You flat out said the NGR had no anti-sub assets .. you were CLEARLY wrong .

And now you want to get colorful with the descriptions of what your opinion is of he XS-30 attack sub .
The fact of the matter is as I said they would send several of those XS-30's out in groups .. not solo . Thus when as you said activates its sonar to locate the CS subs the CS subs will either let it go or try to kill it . Once they start to attack that sub the other subs are going to go hot as well and well odds of 3 to 1 against the CS . That Orca is dead .

You said "In short, no chance of detecting OR engauging CS submaries on ship-killer missions "
The XS-30 has more then enough firepower to singlehandedly take out an Orca class CS sub. Now if you group them together in a grp of 3 or more , That Orca goes down in the first or second melee rounds with out question . Yeah the Orca "MIGHT" take out a "SINGLE" XS-30 .. but its doubtfull ..

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:41 am**

Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
Where the hades are you getting that b.s. from?

I suppose I bothered to read the entire description of the XM 30/CS Shark and Orca submarines.

The crafts designation is XS-30 Torpedo Attack Sub, type: military attack submersible, not exploration sub..
The kids like coining the phrase "epic fail", and you have seriously earned that one.

And you can roll a turd in powdered sugar, it's doesn't make it a jelly donut.

The XM 30 has no acoustic stealth, no passive sonar, no acoustic decoys and a lighter torpedo load. In short, no chance of detecting OR engaging CS submarines on ship-killer missions.

This is suposed to be a friendly discussion forum, please make an attempt to be more polite.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:45 am**

Lenwen wrote:
Samored II wrote:
wolfe wrote:
Where the hades are you getting that b.s. from?

I suppose I bothered to read the entire description of the XM 30/CS Shark and Orca submarines.

The crafts designation is XS-30 Torpedo Attack Sub, type: military attack submersible, not exploration sub..
The kids like coining the phrase "epic fail", and you have seriously earned that one.

And you can roll a turd in powdered sugar, it's doesn't make it a jelly donut.

The XM 30 has no acoustic stealth, no passive sonar, no acoustic decoys and a lighter torpedo load. In short, no chance of detecting OR engaging CS submarines on ship-killer missions.

This is at least in my opinion , wrong . The fact of the matter is the XS-30 IS an attack sub . You flat out said the NGR had no anti-sub assets .. you were CLEARLY wrong .

I think he meant "that was worth noting, as the subs listed are not anti-sub, and as anti-subs, they completely fail at the task".

Lenwen wrote:And now you want to get colorful with the descriptions of what your opinion is of he XS-30 attack sub .
The fact of the matter is as I said they would send several of those XS-30's out in groups .. not solo . Thus when as you said activates its sonar to locate the CS subs the CS subs will either let it go or try to kill it . Once they start to attack that sub the other subs are going to go hot as well and well odds of 3 to 1 against the CS . That Orca is dead .

Well, given that the Orca's passive has 3x the range of the XS-30's active, they have 3x the engagement range while the XS-30 is still looking for the Orca (no omni-potent, "it's there, all guns FIRE!" options available).

The Orca can lay a dozen torpedos into an XS-30 and disappear before they even have time to react. They can stalk these XS-30's for days, picking them off without the XS-30 even getting a single engagement shot. Stick a pair of Orcas on a single hunting trip, and you've just sunk three of the NGR's most powerful ships without suffering a single hit.

Lenwen wrote:You said "In short, no chance of detecting OR engauging CS submaries on ship-killer missions "
The XS-30 has more then enough firepower to singlehandedly take out an Orca class CS sub. Now if you group them together in a grp of 3 or more , That Orca goes down in the first or second melee rounds with out question . Yeah the Orca "MIGHT" take out a "SINGLE" XS-30 .. but its doubtfull ..

Well, this isn't the 1800's, so the Orca isn't lining up to receive a return-volley. Generally, they will get a first-round suprise hit from behind, striking a critical area, as the attack is the most advantageous for the Orca. That and the firepower of the XS-30 is irrelivant if it cannot shoot back (as it is likely dead or sinking).

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:49 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:The Orca can lay a dozen torpedos into an XS-30 and disappear before they even have time to react. They can stalk these XS-30's for days, picking them off without the XS-30 even getting a single engagement shot. Stick a pair of Orcas on a single hunting trip, and you've just sunk three of the NGR's most powerful ships without suffering a single hit.

In point of fact the CS submarines will rarely, if ever, engage NGR submarines. The target will be the Poisedon carriers.

Well, this isn't the 1800's, so the Orca isn't lining up to receive a return-volley. Generally, they will get a first-round suprise hit from behind, striking a critical area, as the attack is the most advantageous for the Orca. That and the firepower of the XS-30 is irrelivant if it cannot shoot back (as it is likely dead or sinking).

The two over-riding principals of submarine warfare are stealth and surprise. The XM 30 has neither; the CSN, both.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:07 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:
Well, this isn't the 1800's, so the Orca isn't lining up to receive a return-volley. Generally, they will get a first-round suprise hit from behind, striking a critical area, as the attack is the most advantageous for the Orca. That and the firepower of the XS-30 is irrelivant if it cannot shoot back (as it is likely dead or sinking).

Obviously the XS-30 wont know which direction that torpedo is comming I take it then either , and neither will the XS-30 pilot simply steer his sub in the direction of the Torpedo that was shot at them .. The Orca is incredibly slow compared to the XS-30 , and the XS-30 would easily overtake that Orca prior to the Orca being able to get outta the way the Orca is HUGE !!!! And something that big does not turn that fast what so ever in the ocean obviously this means the XS-30 is GOING to know where to find that Orca .

And if thier travelling as I said in grps of three that Orca might be able to launch enough torpedoe's to sink 1 or 2 of the XS-30 subs but the fact is the last XS-30 will launch its payload in return fire as it closes the distance between itself an the Orca ..

The XS-30 has MORE then enough firepower to sink that Orca extreamly easy ..
And the XS-30 has MORE overall MDC then the Orca . Hence me saying in a grp of 3 the Orca "MIGHT" sink 1 or 2 of them but the third will get that Orca every time .

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:28 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
Dog_O_War wrote:
Well, this isn't the 1800's, so the Orca isn't lining up to receive a return-volley. Generally, they will get a first-round suprise hit from behind, striking a critical area, as the attack is the most advantageous for the Orca. That and the firepower of the XS-30 is irrelivant if it cannot shoot back (as it is likely dead or sinking).

Obviously the XS-30 wont know which direction that torpedo is comming I take it then either , and neither will the XS-30 pilot simply steer his sub in the direction of the Torpedo that was shot at them .. The Orca is incredibly slow compared to the XS-30 , and the XS-30 would easily overtake that Orca prior to the Orca being able to get outta the way the Orca is HUGE !!!! And something that big does not turn that fast what so ever in the ocean obviously this means the XS-30 is GOING to know where to find that Orca .

And if thier travelling as I said in grps of three that Orca might be able to launch enough torpedoe's to sink 1 or 2 of the XS-30 subs but the fact is the last XS-30 will launch its payload in return fire as it closes the distance between itself an the Orca ..

The XS-30 has MORE then enough firepower to sink that Orca extreamly easy ..
And the XS-30 has MORE overall MDC then the Orca . Hence me saying in a grp of 3 the Orca "MIGHT" sink 1 or 2 of them but the third will get that Orca every time .

Do you know the range on their sonar?
Do you know the speed at which these boats travel?
Do you have any idea how disappeared the Orca can be in that amount of time, or more to the point - how far displaced, and thus not in the direction the torpedos came from?

Also, what you are expressing is omnipotent sighting - that because the torpedos came from this direction, we can simply turn and fire and hit the target. It does not work that way.

We can assume that yes, the XS-30's will know from which direction the torpedos came from, but not the distance. We know that the Orca will not be there when those XS-30's get there, as that is a foolish tactic. You wouldn't be there when three subs with superior over-all firepower came baring down on you, right?

As I had stated before, that single Orca can stalk those subs for days. If those subs hunt that Orca, then that Orca is effectively taking 3 enemy subs out of the fight all by itself. Even then, it is unlikely (though not impossible) that the Orca will fall victim to these NGR subs, as it has both superior detection methods and stealth abilities. Even a knife can beat a machinegun - you just have to know the hows and whys of this possibility.

That said, the Orca is much better than a knife when compared to the XS-30 as a machinegun.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:05 pm**

Dog_O_War wrote:
1) -Do you know the range on their sonar?
2) - Do you know the speed at which these boats travel?
3) - Do you have any idea how disappeared the Orca can be in that amount of time, or more to the point - how far displaced, and thus not in the direction the torpedos came from?

4) - Also, what you are expressing is omnipotent sighting - that because the torpedos came from this direction, we can simply turn and fire and hit the target. It does not work that way.

5) - We can assume that yes, the XS-30's will know from which direction the torpedos came from, but not the distance. We know that the Orca will not be there when those XS-30's get there, as that is a foolish tactic. You wouldn't be there when three subs with superior over-all firepower came baring down on you, right?

1) .
Orca - 20 miles
XS-30 - 2 miles.
2) .
Orca - 40.6 mph ..
XS-30 -50 mph ..
3) .
Depending upon how far out that Orca shot that torpedo ... If its further then 10 miles out .. no way the XS-30 will have a chance to catch the Orca .

Anything as close as 5 miles or closer and that Orca is good as toast to being caught for firing that torpedo an then attempting to get outta the area .. The XS-30 is 10 miles per hour faster and knows the last known trajectory of said torpedo . Figure two things on this now ..
5 miles away that Orca STILL has to move forword to turn around .. regaurdless of what you believe thats how subs move .
50mph is more then enough speed to get into the line of trajectory going straight at the last known fireing spot and tossing on the Sonar which would pick up that Orca with in 2 miles of it . Thats all the XS-30 has to do is get within 2 miles of it an BAM its detectable .. and with a faster overall underwater speed that Orca is good as "got" Esp since that XS-30 can launch torpedoes from the edge of its own Sonar tracking abilities .. meaning that Orca after its made its turn around is going to try to outrun that XS-30 an there in lies its whole death ...

That Orca needs to be able to reliably hit targets further then 10 miles away , in order for that XS-30 not to be able to get to the last known shot area . All the while staying out of the XS-30's radar .. which in an of itself would be EXTREAMLY difficult .. even with that nifty -20% to enemy sonar ..

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:36 am**

wolfe wrote:The point is the XS-sub could sink the Orca, and the Orca could sink the XS-sub, other then that who really cares.

And a vibro-knife can kill a Glitterboy.

Why we care is because we are comparing what is likely and what is unlikely.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:15 pm**

wolfe wrote:the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:41 pm**

Lenwen wrote:And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

I'd love to hear your sources for this.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:44 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

I'd love to hear your sources for this.

hahaha.

The Triax tech will be DIFFERENT. In my opinion it is better, but I wouldn't say it makes CS stuff look bad. It's just more practical and better suited for its job...and its badass.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:53 pm**

The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

I'd love to hear your sources for this.

hahaha.

The Triax tech will be DIFFERENT. In my opinion it is better, but I wouldn't say it makes CS stuff look bad. It's just more practical and better suited for its job...and its badass.

CS stuff vs. Triax stuff wasn't horribly bad when world book 5 came out. There is a 10 year difference, and Triax was better, but not so much that if you pit one CS grunt against a Triax grunt the Triax grunt would be a clear cut win every time. I know the writers of the book were aware of this (I made sure to make them aware of this) and I'm sure they understand. I know that's what I kept in mind when I designed a few things and offered it to them, and they seemed happy with it, so no doubt we're relitivly close to the same page.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:04 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

I'd love to hear your sources for this.

hahaha.

The Triax tech will be DIFFERENT. In my opinion it is better, but I wouldn't say it makes CS stuff look bad. It's just more practical and better suited for its job...and its badass.

CS stuff vs. Triax stuff wasn't horribly bad when world book 5 came out. There is a 10 year difference, and Triax was better, but not so much that if you pit one CS grunt against a Triax grunt the Triax grunt would be a clear cut win every time. I know the writers of the book were aware of this (I made sure to make them aware of this) and I'm sure they understand. I know that's what I kept in mind when I designed a few things and offered it to them, and they seemed happy with it, so no doubt we're relitivly close to the same page.

So then you have developed some of the Tech for the NGR an it was published in a canon book ?

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:05 pm**

Lenwen wrote:So then you have developed some of the Tech for the NGR an it was published in a canon book ?

Not yet. (Crosses fingers it doesn't get cut in triax 2).

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:09 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
dark brandon wrote:
Lenwen wrote:And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

I'd love to hear your sources for this.

hahaha.

The Triax tech will be DIFFERENT. In my opinion it is better, but I wouldn't say it makes CS stuff look bad. It's just more practical and better suited for its job...and its badass.

CS stuff vs. Triax stuff wasn't horribly bad when world book 5 came out. There is a 10 year difference, and Triax was better, but not so much that if you pit one CS grunt against a Triax grunt the Triax grunt would be a clear cut win every time. I know the writers of the book were aware of this (I made sure to make them aware of this) and I'm sure they understand. I know that's what I kept in mind when I designed a few things and offered it to them, and they seemed happy with it, so no doubt we're relitivly close to the same page.

So then you have developed some of the Tech for the NGR an it was published in a canon book ?

Well he knows the writer's of NGR 2 personally, so he and they likely talked about the book.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:36 pm**

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Well he knows the writer's of NGR 2 personally, so he and they likely talked about the book.

And so who are the writers then ?

I heard there were two and I also heard that all those Jager's in that Rifter mag a while back are going to put into the new NGR book and be made canon.

Also heard several other things but I highly doubt they hold any merit personally ..

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:45 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:Well he knows the writer's of NGR 2 personally, so he and they likely talked about the book.

And so who are the writers then ?

I heard there were two and I also heard that all those Jager's in that Rifter mag a while back are going to put into the new NGR book and be made canon.

Also heard several other things but I highly doubt they hold any merit personally ..

Galactis Kid: aka Brandon aten

Roadwarriorfwank: aka Taylor white.

They co-wrote the rifter article that had some Triax advancements, as well as other things. Definatly a good read, and it may (or may not) be an omen of things to come.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:09 am**

LeSquide wrote:Is there any sort of timeline for this? That might get me buying new Rifts books again.

It's done and turned into Kevin. Just waiting on him now.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:50 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
wolfe wrote:the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:07 pm**

Samored II wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
wolfe wrote:the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:13 pm**

Talavar wrote:He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

Generally speaking, from what I understand, CS has more interaction with most player groups than other places. But, like many things, it's dependant on what I think sells and what is written.

Many can complain about Triax taking a back seat, but that's because there were no writers for it. For whatever reason, some didn't take on the task, and Kevin himself had other priorities.

Complaining that anything in the rifts world except North America has taken a back seat is a pointless argument. NGR isn't the only nation that needs an "update", There are many that could use one as well. There are just not enough talented writers, enough hours in a day and enough want to do this.

Luck for everyone, someone did take up the task of updating NGR.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:16 pm**

Talavar wrote:
Samored II wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
wolfe wrote:the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

Samored II ...

Reread the BOLD , Underlined words ...

Funny how its true ... aint it ?

And this is more about canon-ocity .. then you would like to think ..

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:18 pm**

Lenwen wrote:
Talavar wrote:
Samored II wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
wolfe wrote:the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

Samored II ...

Reread the BOLD , Underlined words ...

Funny how its true ... aint it ?

The unfortunate thing is...despite how true it is...it really doesn't matter.

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:38 pm**

dark brandon wrote:
The unfortunate thing is...despite how true it is...it really doesn't matter.

Only to some Brandon.. only to some..

Staying with Canon as a GM are we supposed to simply UP the NGR's overall capabilities ?

Or simply push back the advances the CS has ?

Cause simply put .. The NGR is (according to canon) Supposed to be MORE advanced then the CS in nearly EVERY way possible ..

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