Why does"Enviormental" stop magic ?

[keir451]

Admittedly so, yet the magic in Rifts (for the most part) acts within the bounds of physics, besides triax and the Phase world Wolfen do use E.M. systems to disrupt Psionics, and enviromentally sealed is just that at basics, sealing yourself into an entirely isolated enviroment

Being enviromentally sealed means it stops the transmission of ANYTHING including radiation, since magic is a form of energy;i.e. radiation it cannot penetrate the armor, also E.M. frequencies can disrupt magic so the E.M. field generated by the armor also blocks the energy flow. That is why your mage has to penetrate the armors shielding first before he/she can affect the pilot. Hope this helps

Magic often defies the laws of physics and does not behave the way one would expect it to behave.

[Lenwen]

Please show me a book and page number that says a mage must stop and catch his breath before casting. I could be wrong, but I suspect you're inventing that.

Sadly .. I wish I was ..

Can't Cast Magic when under Direct attack
( Reading these darkened letters is where the text was taken from )
To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

[Killer Cyborg]

Please show me a book and page number that says a mage must stop and catch his breath before casting. I could be wrong, but I suspect you're inventing that.

Sadly .. I wish I was ..

Can't Cast Magic when under Direct attack
( Reading these darkened letters is where the text was taken from )
To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

You keep leaving out the first part of that passage:

This also means that if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity, even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action.

Notice that the only spells he can't get off are higher level spells.
Notice that this same fact is true whether he's running or under heavy fire.
He can still cast lower-level spells.

[Lenwen]

Please show me a book and page number that says a mage must stop and catch his breath before casting. I could be wrong, but I suspect you're inventing that.

Sadly .. I wish I was ..

Can't Cast Magic when under Direct attack
( Reading these darkened letters is where the text was taken from )
To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

You keep leaving out the first part of that passage:

This also means that if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity, even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get [b]a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action. [/b]

Notice that the only spells he can't get off are higher level spells.
Notice that this same fact is true whether he's running or under heavy fire.
He can still cast lower-level spells.

Show me where it stats that ONLY .. when the mage is being pressed .. does the rule apply ..

If you cant then by default ..

It is ment to be played .. like that at any time ..

[Killer Cyborg]

Please show me a book and page number that says a mage must stop and catch his breath before casting. I could be wrong, but I suspect you're inventing that.

Sadly .. I wish I was ..

Can't Cast Magic when under Direct attack
( Reading these darkened letters is where the text was taken from )
To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

You keep leaving out the first part of that passage:

This also means that if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity, even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get [b]a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action. [/b]

Notice that the only spells he can't get off are higher level spells.
Notice that this same fact is true whether he's running or under heavy fire.
He can still cast lower-level spells.

Show me where it stats that ONLY .. when the mage is being pressed .. does the rule apply ..

If you cant then by default ..

It is ment to be played .. like that at any time ..

I think you lost track of the thread of the conversation. This was about a mage being winded while running, remember?
I'm not sure what you're really talking about there.

[runebeo]

higher level spells cost two to three action to preform and being hit interrupts them but a spell that takes one action is nearly instantaneous. Our GM says if the mage wins initiative for the round then he is not under pressure or any opponent in combat with the mage could invoke such pressure making casting higher level spell impossible in combat, which is the main reason mages have minions & pets to keep the pressure off of him.

[Lenwen]

You keep leaving out the first part of that passage:

Ok allow me to show you how I personally read that whole thing bro.


The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action

To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

This clear as day .. means .. any physical action .. which does not mean .. as you would have others believe ..

only when thier under attack

It means exactly what it means .. any physical action.

[Mack]

Still haven't answered the following:
-- "Put a Mage in a Gladiatorial Arena against a Rogue Scholar (Why a Rogue Scholar, because Mage's are also 'Scholar's') Have both with no Armor, but give the Rogue Scholar a MD Laser Pistol." (From Tiree)
-- Drop both a Mage and a Soldier in the woods, buck-naked, and see who survives
-- The support structure and supply lines needed by a soldier versus a mage.

And your definition of "any physical action" is off. Breathing is a physical action. By your interpretation, breathing would require the mage to catch his breath before casting a spell.

[Lenwen]

Still haven't answered the following:
-- "Put a Mage in a Gladiatorial Arena against a Rogue Scholar (Why a Rogue Scholar, because Mage's are also 'Scholar's') Have both with no Armor, but give the Rogue Scholar a MD Laser Pistol." (From Tiree)

What is the mages PPE ?
How full is that Eclip ? Whats the range and damage of the MD Laser Pistol ? Is it the generic one or is it one of well tons of kinds of Laser Pistols ?

-- Drop both a Mage and a Soldier in the woods, buck-naked, and see who survives

I'd say the soldier would easily be able to survive I've been to SERE school at ft. bragg and was taught how to live off the land in almost every climate .. I would not be scared ( as an ex 82nd Airbourne Infantry soldier I know I could easily make it )

-- The support structure and supply lines needed by a soldier versus a mage.

Considering I've already said one of thee ONLY .. real valuble things magic can do is "Teleport" which by its definition would be able to keep said mage resupplied indef ..

Where as the soldier would have to physically cross the land .. rather then popping up outta no where and getting resupplied ..

And your definition of "any physical action" is off. Breathing is a physical action. By your interpretation, breathing would require the mage to catch his breath before casting a spell.

The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running

Since the question was about any physical action .. you did correct me .. but then now how you going to defend it when it flat out stated .. in Rue .. the above highlighted .. (or running) part of the text ?

And is exactly what I was talking about ..

[Killer Cyborg]

You keep leaving out the first part of that passage:

Ok allow me to show you how I personally read that whole thing bro.


The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action

To cast a spell the practitioner of magic will need to stop, catch his breath ( this should count as one or two of his meleeactions/attacks) and then cast his spell. ( Another one or more of his melee actions depending on the spell level)

This clear as day .. means .. any physical action .. which does not mean .. as you would have others believe ..

only when thier under attack

It means exactly what it means .. any physical action.

I never said "only when they're under attack."
What I said was that it only prevents you, whatever the circumstances, from casting higher level spells.
I underlined, bolded, and italicized that part of the passage, thinking that this would make my point clear to you.
Instead, you're ignoring that part and arguing against stuff I never said.

[Mack]

Still haven't answered the following:
-- "Put a Mage in a Gladiatorial Arena against a Rogue Scholar (Why a Rogue Scholar, because Mage's are also 'Scholar's') Have both with no Armor, but give the Rogue Scholar a MD Laser Pistol." (From Tiree)

What is the mages PPE ?
How full is that Eclip ? Whats the range and damage of the MD Laser Pistol ? Is it the generic one or is it one of well tons of kinds of Laser Pistols ?

It's a simple generic encounter and doesn't need to be stated out. Just give a simple generic response.

-- Drop both a Mage and a Soldier in the woods, buck-naked, and see who survives

I'd say the soldier would easily be able to survive I've been to SERE school at ft. bragg and was taught how to live off the land in almost every climate .. I would not be scared ( as an ex 82nd Airbourne Infantry soldier I know I could easily make it )

Good luck dealing with all the nasty creepy crawlies found in Rifts.

-- The support structure and supply lines needed by a soldier versus a mage.

Considering I've already said one of thee ONLY .. real valuble things magic can do is "Teleport" which by its definition would be able to keep said mage resupplied indef ..

Where as the soldier would have to physically cross the land .. rather then popping up outta no where and getting resupplied ..

First, if you think the only valuable thing a mage can do is Teleport, you're not playing it as intended.
Second, the point is a mage has very little need for resupply when compared to a soldier. Arguably, the only thing a mage needs is food, if that.

And your definition of "any physical action" is off. Breathing is a physical action. By your interpretation, breathing would require the mage to catch his breath before casting a spell.

The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running

Since the question was about any physical action .. you did correct me .. but then now how you going to defend it when it flat out stated .. in Rue .. the above highlighted .. (or running) part of the text ?

And is exactly what I was talking about ..

I wouldn't argue that point at all. Though I would add that if a soldier is running that hard, allowing him to stop and fire without a penalty is ludicrous.

[Mack]

Forgot about this one:

Show me one psychic or tech character that can summon demons or elementals to do his bidding. Show my a psychic or tech character that can summon 6 monsters with thousands of MDC each like T-Monster Man.

The Tattoe man summoning Monsters with thousands of MDC .. was ruled "Against" the rules .. by people here on the threads ..

No, it's expressly within the by-the-book rules but is obviously in need an update or house-rule for balance.

[runebeo]

Forgot about this one:

Show me one psychic or tech character that can summon demons or elementals to do his bidding. Show my a psychic or tech character that can summon 6 monsters with thousands of MDC each like T-Monster Man.

The Tattoe man summoning Monsters with thousands of MDC .. was ruled "Against" the rules .. by people here on the threads ..

No, it's expressly within the by-the-book rules but is obviously in need an update or house-rule for balance.

What is the financial cost of a power armor with stock it with missiles & ammo? Answer millions! Then to maintain it, repair it, restock it? Answer hundreds of thousands to millions. Whats the financial cost to summon creatures and use monster tattoos repeatedly? You can guess this one.

Why would anyone try to use a monster tattoo tougher than a T-Rex, Spinosaurus, Blow worm, Kreeghor Bloodhound or sea serpent. First what the hell you going up against to need a creature with thousands of M.D.C.s? Second if it was intended like that why would all the Npc with monster tattoos be using Pegasus, Dracondactyl, Maniticore, Melech, Fury Beatles, Beast Dragon, Chimera, Peryton, Serpent Beast and Rhino-Buffalo instead of super powerful ones like the Horseman's Netherbeast or gigantic sea serpents? Answer theres got to be a limit or I'm sure Enku Longhair, Gilgamesh the Wonderer's undead slayer partner wouldn't be using a useless fury beetle. Third thing if you start making super powerful creatures pop out, whats threat are the real monster to your group? When you run into a few angry Rhino-Buffalo whats the big deal when you drop a blow Worm and a T-Rex out on them, anything more would be even greater overkill.

[Mack]

runebeo, I'm not sure what you're getting at since I expressly said "obviously in need an update or house-rule for balance."

[Lenwen]

This whole running and catching breath thing is dumb. You keep ignoring the fact that a mage is not going to be out of breath very quickly.

I am not ignoring anything .. you however .. seem to have issues with what Rue explicitly .. states in the paragraph that I refrenced ..

I know its stupid. Its one of the fundemental issues that makes mages weak. It is just one of nearly a dozen "Checks" used to "Balance" magic .. to be less then tech.

No he's trying to show you an advantage of mages, even naked they are a terrible foe while the tech guy is impotent and near useless. Besides you constantly weigh things against the mage.

Ahh ok so his way of showing how "Powerfull" magic is .. by placing them up against basically what amounts to a Vegabond ?

Just the mear fact that he had to place them "Naked" to get the mage a better chance at survival .. should be a CLEAR .. indication of just how weak magic is ..

Why do you think tech only needs ammo? He/she needs to fix armor. The tech person needs to repair, maintain and replace weapons/bots and vehicles.

Mages have the same issues with thier body armors, thier vehicles and anything of that nature as well ..
Unless you can show me a spell that does this for them (Fixes thier stuff )

Tech guys also suffer from this for shooting because I know from personal experience that my shooting is off if I am winded.

Care to cite a refrence .. Book an pg# .. where the tech guy is charged several "Actions" or "Attacks" to catch thier breath as the mage is ?

I've shown you where I got mine .. Show me where you get yours

Sadly I wish you would use common sense with the use of that rule.

Sadly .. I do not think you know what your talking about. How bout this.. you quote me where I stated I played it as the rule states ?

ok since you can not .. I will "Clerify" this for you...

I Refrenced that very rule .. to show and give an example of JUST .. how many "Counters" against it magic has .. as opposed to Tech .. Magic has nearly a dozen "Counters" against it ... yet .. only has two REAL good things going for it .. as opposed to the tech side .. ( Teleportation, PPE regeneration ) Thats absolutly it for the magic "Pro's" ..

Seriously Lenwen is that how you interpret and run that rule?

I refrenced that rule to show you guys just how stupidly some of these "Counters" to place magic in "Check" as opposed to the Tech side of the gambit .. is Litterally .. shown to be.

You can "Interprete" that passage any way you want but if you play it ANY way other then the way it has been presented your playing the mage with "House" rules ..

Even SERE training gives you basic things like clothes, a knife and maybe something to carry water in.

Durring the class part of it . You obviously have your standard issue equipment yes. Durring the "Evasion" part of the class which lasts an extended period of time .. you do not get the luxury of anything like a knife or any such tools .. no sorry.

[Killer Cyborg]

No he's trying to show you an advantage of mages, even naked they are a terrible foe while the tech guy is impotent and near useless. Besides you constantly weigh things against the mage.

Ahh ok so his way of showing how "Powerfull" magic is .. by placing them up against basically what amounts to a Vegabond ?

No; it's by pointing out to you that unlike tech opponents, a mage can never be reduced to being "what amounts to a Vegebond."
The point isn't that an unarmed and naked tech-guy is a threat; he isn't.
But the mage IS; he can still take on MEGA-DAMAGE foes if he has a couple seconds prep time.
The SDC guy won't even be able to take on an SDC foe with a gun.

You can argue that the fact a mage can still explode granite when he's unarmed and naked is some kind of weakness on the mages part, that somehow the fact he retains essentially all of his firepower independent of equipment, is some kind of weakness... but it doesn't make a lick of sense, and all such claims do is drop your credibility.

[Mack]

Mages have the same issues with thier body armors, thier vehicles and anything of that nature as well ..
Unless you can show me a spell that does this for them (Fixes thier stuff )

Yep, I can. For example, a Techno-Wizard can add Mend the Broken to body armor for less than 15,000 credits. With it, pumping 7 PPE into the armor will repair 10 MDC. Of course, that should only be used as backup. Any mage worthy of the name will also have Armor of Ithan or Invulnerability or Invincible Armor at his disposal, either through spells or TW.

[runebeo]

runebeo, I'm not sure what you're getting at since I expressly said "obviously in need an update or house-rule for balance."

I know you said it needed to be balanced, I'm just saying keeping the monsters under a thousand seems to work well and going over a 1,000 is going have some GMs reluctant to use Tattoo characters in their game. I remember my old GM was upset about allowing Blow worms & Kreeghor Bloodhounds as tattoos, now their way more powerful creatures to choose from then whats in the old conversion book one.

[Borast]

Question is simple and I would be VERY interested in see'ing what logically speaking you all thought about this subject.

Question the first:
Why does having "Enviormental" ability built into what ever .. basically stop some forms of magic ?

I mean litterally if some one stuck some optic's system and some form of locomotion on to a Fridge, Because its enviormentally sealed it would stop some forms of magic.

Why is it that this "Enviormental" "Ability" stop some forms of magic ?

The description given, and this dates back to the initial inclusion of ENV Armour and Magic existing together, is that the armour seals the mage away from the world, and (s)he has to be "in contact" with the world - which is why non-environmental (like Class 4 Riot Gear) is preferred by magi of all sorts.

There was also a description of what happens when a mage does wear sealed armour - essentially the PPE pouring off the mage 24/7 is like his or her own personal sand blaster, and it eroded the armour away from the inside, until after doing X% of damage and "breeching" the seals. Don't ask for book or page...#1 I'm away from my books, and I haven't read any of them in a longish time!

(When I run) my Campaign, I do not penalise a mage for armour of any type...so long as (s)he is "open" to the world. But, I still do encourage the mage to use non-metallic (primarily) armours, as the metals "interfere" with the flow of energy.

[Library Ogre]

Watching this thread is like watching a Pong match between two TSR-80's...

Same move, same explanation, same counterpoint, same thing over and over and over. It's getting redundant redundant.

And yet...I must watch.

Let the madness continue.

TRS-80s. TSR-80s would be the Wilderness Survival Guide vs. Unearthed Arcana.

[Shark_Force]

There was also a description of what happens when a mage does wear sealed armour - essentially the PPE pouring off the mage 24/7 is like his or her own personal sand blaster, and it eroded the armour away from the inside, until after doing X% of damage and "breeching" the seals. Don't ask for book or page...#1 I'm away from my books, and I haven't read any of them in a longish time!

sounds like you're talking about the SA2 guy... rune warrior or something like that? anyways, the people who are made by nazca line drawers and can turn all their PPE into one superattack that kersplodes whatever it hits, they're kinda like a T-man but not...

which is beside the point, because one OCC does not a generalised concept (ie "mage") make. especially when that one OCC does not really even fit into said generalised concept.

[Killer Cyborg]

There was also a description of what happens when a mage does wear sealed armour - essentially the PPE pouring off the mage 24/7 is like his or her own personal sand blaster, and it eroded the armour away from the inside, until after doing X% of damage and "breeching" the seals. Don't ask for book or page...#1 I'm away from my books, and I haven't read any of them in a longish time!

sounds like you're talking about the SA2 guy... rune warrior or something like that? anyways, the people who are made by nazca line drawers and can turn all their PPE into one superattack that kersplodes whatever it hits, they're kinda like a T-man but not...

which is beside the point, because one OCC does not a generalised concept (ie "mage") make. especially when that one OCC does not really even fit into said generalised concept.

No. He's talking about the (one-time) official explanation for why mages couldn't wear environmental armor.
IIRC, it was in SoT or someplace.