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Jefffar wrote:Which was the shock though, The existence of Shadow Alphas or the existence of Shadow Fighters?

I believe, again IIRC, the two were mutual.

Just pulled out my copy to verify. It shows the UEEF people being caught flat-footed by the Ghost Squadron's use of Shadow devices. The term "some kind of cloaking device" was used by Baker, indicating that Wolf Squadron, at least, had no clue what a Shadow Device was. Lisa didn't seem to recognize them, either. Later in the issue, Janice is going through Edwards' files:

Janice: "Edwards has developed some sort of stealth technology that masks the energy signal of a vessel from detection with some kind of transdimensional shift."
Dr. Lang: "Fourth Deemensional reconfiguration? But Dr. Laslo Zand Assured me dat his research had proven such a process to be impossible!" ... "Can you make anything out of de data, Janice?"
Janice: "Some of it, but the remainder of the data is incomplete and beyond my ability to compute. Without it, I'm afraid we can't reproduce this alien cloaking technology."

ShadowLogan wrote:1. Unless we ignore the current item of discussion. Doesn't the GMP Robot appear in two different scales? I know not official yet.

Not in any official capacity, no. All three of the original shows had their fair share of errors and slips in the animation, but Southern Cross had more than most because its mecha designers never set down the details of anything. Like the "large Alpha", one or two cases where the scale is off doesn't provide cause for retroactively (and messily) trying to add a new mecha to the series.

ShadowLogan wrote:2. With regard to the Beta, the VF-X-7 was canceled in the early 2020s and revived as the -9 in the late 2030s/early 40s. A stretched Alpha variant may have been implemented to make up the capability gap during the intervening time period.

Unlikely in the extreme. As far as capabilities go, the Alpha's airframe isn't well suited to a role as a light bomber or heavy battroid. It's just not equipped to fill those roles, while it's also profoundly illogical to have something like that when you already have another fighter that's basically already pulling the "heavy fighter" duty... the Conbat. There's just isn't a logical reason for a grossly oversized Alpha to exist, which is why Harmony Gold has been content to simply leave it as an animation error and a slightly embarrassing footnote in the disowned old RPG.

jaymz wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Okay, reasonable reason for an oversized shadow alpha: The Shadow Cloaking device itself was origionallly larger, too large for the Alpha itself. So a new Veritech had to be developed to carry it and so the giant Alpha was created.

That only works if you ignore the canon materials that Edwards already had developed the shadow tech to the point of being in regular sized alphas during Prelude.

Yep, exactly right... I pointed that out a few times on the previous page as well.

Jefffar wrote:Does it explicitly indicate that nobody knew about shadow fighters of any type before Edwards fielded Shadow Alphas or does it say that nobody knew about Shadow Alphas before Edwards fielded them?

Actually, prior to Edwards busting out his Shadow fighters, the means by which the "shadow device" achieves its stealth effect was believed to be impossible. The UEEF could not have built any "large Shadow Alpha" because, prior to their encounters with completed Shadow fighters they didn't even know such a thing was possible. In order for "jumbo Alphas" to exist, Edwards would need to have either left them behind (which we know he didn't do), or the UEEF would've had to waste time and resources building a completely unnecessary plane when they already had the know-how to build a normal-sized Shadow Alpha and Beta and were building them by the hundreds.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:2. With regard to the Beta, the VF-X-7 was canceled in the early 2020s and revived as the -9 in the late 2030s/early 40s. A stretched Alpha variant may have been implemented to make up the capability gap during the intervening time period.

Unlikely in the extreme. As far as capabilities go, the Alpha's airframe isn't well suited to a role as a light bomber or heavy battroid. It's just not equipped to fill those roles, while it's also profoundly illogical to have something like that when you already have another fighter that's basically already pulling the "heavy fighter" duty... the Conbat. There's just isn't a logical reason for a grossly oversized Alpha to exist, which is why Harmony Gold has been content to simply leave it as an animation error and a slightly embarrassing footnote in the disowned old RPG.

While the Conbat did take over for the Beta, it did not take over all roles the Beta was to play. That logically leaves room for an Alpha variant to exist that is stretched to address those roles unique to it (Beta) working with the Alpha (basically propulsion). A change in ordance would also be possible, and could be done for other logical reasons.

Jefffar wrote:Okay, reasonable reason for an oversized shadow alpha: The Shadow Cloaking device itself was origionallly larger, too large for the Alpha itself. So a new Veritech had to be developed to carry it and so the giant Alpha was created.

If it was for technology development couldn't they use the Cyclone Storage Bay or stripout MM-60 stations to accommodate the bulkier technology until miniturization was possible?

Note that, according to Invasion, Lance's wave of the Reclamation force didn't use Betas or Alphas: they relied on Condors for ground control and Conbats for air support. It didn't work very well; but that's not the point.

As well, time and effort spent on developing and producing an oversized Alpha is time and effort not spent on developing and producing the Beta. And the engineering challenges in reworking a vehicle design on a different scale are considerable: it's not as simple as "just increase the dimensions of everything by 50% and call it good". Setting aside the fact that an oversized cockpit would be a pain to use, there are also numerous issues with the square-cube law that would crop up. In essence, designing an oversized Alpha would probably take as much work as developing a Beta. And no the existence of the Valkyries would not help: an Alpha's transformation sequence and aerodynamics are too different from a Valkyrie's for the latter to be of any help in designing the former.

And finally: When the SDF-3 left Earth, the Beta was either ready to go or very nearly so: what we do have of the Sentinels footage includes Karen Penn helping to test the Alpha/Beta docking process. Admittedly, the docking didn't work out as intended; but that's a minor thing compared to the presence of a flight-capable Beta in that scene.

if said "over sized" alpha's exist, I doubt they Transform, being they are never shown doing so in the show.
Over-sized Alpha looking Battiloid is much easier to build than say one that fully transforms.

Much easier. But for some reason, the same people who are so insistent that it must exist seem to be equally insistent that it must be transformable.

dataweaver wrote:Much easier. But for some reason, the same people who are so insistent that it must exist seem to be equally insistent that it must be transformable.

I'll follow the Line of thought Tommy has, unless its shown in the show, its not real.
so the 40ft Shadow-Battiloid can exist, but its only a Battiloid, being we never see a Over-sized Alpha in Flight.
Much Like Tommy's opinion on the Sylphid-Veritech, being a Single-mode Veritech.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I'll follow the Line of thought Tommy has, unless its shown in the show, its not real.

I don't think that's his line of thought. Silverbacks, Myrmidons (sp?), and Bioroid Interceptors never appeared in the show. Nor did Tigers, but I won't be surprised to see them (along with Boxers, Cougars, and Jaguars) in New Generation or UEEF Marines; Tigers, at least, made an appearance in Yune's Love and War (along with a Myrmidon). The sense that I get is that Yune's thinking is that as a rule of thumb, if it shows up in the original anime's bible (original anime: Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and Mospeada) and it doesn't conflict with the overall story arc of Robotech, it's probably OK. So the Protoculture ships (as in, ships from the rivals of the Zentreadi known as the Protoculture) don't translate to Robotech, but just about everything else from SDFM does.

Personally, I like the notion of the Disciples of Zor, because it gives a place in Robotech for those Protoculture ships: that is, SDFM's Protoculture would become Robotech's Disciples of Zor. But that's fanon at best, not canon: AFAICT, the Disciples of Zor were only mentioned once in Robotech, in passing, and might easily have been a reference to a small, fringe group of Masters who never really amounted to anything much beyond what Zor himself accomplished. (Again, though, I'm perfectly fine making a bigger deal about them in my games.)

The primary role of the Beta/Shadow Beta seems to be as a weapons platform/booster for the Alpha/Super Alpha-Fighter. I hope most of the Betas we see in the tv series (and SC) aren't transformable, otherwise they seriously wasted resources.

I can see the larger Shadow Alpha as a type of variant. Perhaps early on there were two competing alpha scales and the smaller one won out but the others were put into storage or stationed on patrol duties somewhere. Later refitted for the Assault on Reflex Point.
Maybe as others have suggested its not even a true Alpha, but another mecha's frame with Shadow Alpha parts added.
Either way, it might make sense to have a heavier armored, shadow capable mecha (which looks like an Shadow Alpha when finished) to open and hold attack paths for the other mecha to reach Reflex Point.

If you go with a battloid only giant alpha perhaps it is the Condors replacement with better flight capabilites since we know by Reflex Point the Condors aren't in use any longer....

EDIT - In fact I think this is EXACTLY what I am going to do with it

EDIT 2 - If anyone is interested in seeing the Stats PM me or join the Un-Official Fans of Palladium Books page group on Facebook....

ShadowLogan wrote:While the Conbat did take over for the Beta, it did not take over all roles the Beta was to play.

Yes, well... it wasn't like there weren't other designs that could fill those roles as well. I'm thinking, of course, of the Condor armo-soldier... if not any Southern Cross mecha or ersatz-Macross destroids that may or may not have been taken on by the UEEF. (As far the latter case goes, the record isn't quite clear thanks to the abrupt dismissal of older material from the continuity. It's worth mentioning even though it's not verifiably true now, since it's at least highly plausible.)

ShadowLogan wrote:That logically leaves room for an Alpha variant to exist that is stretched to address those roles unique to it (Beta) working with the Alpha (basically propulsion). A change in ordance would also be possible, and could be done for other logical reasons.

Only if you assume that there were no other units available in the UEDF/UEEF arsenal which could have easily filled those roles without needing to invent a new unit. There are several possibilities that don't require us to have something as irrational as a jumbo-ized Alpha.

dataweaver wrote:As well, time and effort spent on developing and producing an oversized Alpha is time and effort not spent on developing and producing the Beta. And the engineering challenges in reworking a vehicle design on a different scale are considerable: it's not as simple as "just increase the dimensions of everything by 50% and call it good".

QFT.

dataweaver wrote:And finally: When the SDF-3 left Earth, the Beta was either ready to go or very nearly so: what we do have of the Sentinels footage includes Karen Penn helping to test the Alpha/Beta docking process. Admittedly, the docking didn't work out as intended; but that's a minor thing compared to the presence of a flight-capable Beta in that scene.

That was, supposedly, the VF-X-7 Beta that supposedly had some kind of non-specific tech beef that prevented it from being used. (Of course, meant to address why the Alphas were available a early as 2022 for Sentinels and the other parts of the Pioneer Mission story arc, but Scott's party describes the Beta as "new" when it appears in the 2nd ERF.)

dataweaver wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I'll follow the Line of thought Tommy has, unless its shown in the show, its not real.

I don't think that's his line of thought. [...] The sense that I get is that Yune's thinking is that as a rule of thumb, if it shows up in the original anime's bible (original anime: Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and Mospeada) and it doesn't conflict with the overall story arc of Robotech, it's probably OK.

Based on my own interactions with Mr. Yune, and what he and other members of HG's staff have had to say on the matter, that would appear to be pretty close to the mark. If it's a completed design from the original three shows, or if it's something created/approved for a post-reboot story (e.g. the new comics), then it's good.

Certain animation errors got their proverbial seal of approval because they didn't conflict with the consistency of the original material or because they enhance the illusion of consistency between the sagas. For example, the VF-1R got approved because there's already tons of precedent for VF-1s with different gun arrangements on the head. It might break with the OSM in small ways, like being different from the real VF-1R, but it's still consistent with the spirit of the OSM's design philosophies. The nosecone lasers got green-lit because they're something that DOES officially exist on the AFC-01 Legioss (VF/A-6 Alpha), so having them on the VF-1 enhances the illusion of inter-saga consistency.

dataweaver wrote:So the Protoculture ships (as in, ships from the rivals of the Zentreadi known as the Protoculture) don't translate to Robotech, but just about everything else from SDFM does.

Erm... in the OSM, the Protoculture was the creators of the Zentradi (and humanity). You're mixing them up with the Supervision Army (main timeline) and/or the Meltrandi Army (DYRLverse), who were the enemy of the Zentradi.

dataweaver wrote:Personally, I like the notion of the Disciples of Zor, because it gives a place in Robotech for those Protoculture ships: that is, SDFM's Protoculture would become Robotech's Disciples of Zor.

Aaaaaaactually... in keeping with the above correction, the Protoculture civilization from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross would be roughly analogous to the Robotech Masters ("Tirolians") in the Robotech universe. The Supervision Army (to whom the titular ship belonged in the original show) are a faction opposed to the (believed-extinct) Protoculture and their Zentradi forces. Robotech doesn't really have an equivalent to the Supervision Army in its setting.

dataweaver wrote:But that's fanon at best, not canon: AFAICT, the Disciples of Zor were only mentioned once in Robotech, in passing, and might easily have been a reference to a small, fringe group of Masters who never really amounted to anything much beyond what Zor himself accomplished. (Again, though, I'm perfectly fine making a bigger deal about them in my games.)

Two or three times, IIRC... the Robotech Masters thought they were a pretty big threat if they'd got their hands on Zor's ship and mastered the inner secrets of Robotechnology.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:While the Conbat did take over for the Beta, it did not take over all roles the Beta was to play.

Yes, well... it wasn't like there weren't other designs that could fill those roles as well. I'm thinking, of course, of the Condor armo-soldier... if not any Southern Cross mecha or ersatz-Macross destroids that may or may not have been taken on by the UEEF. (As far the latter case goes, the record isn't quite clear thanks to the abrupt dismissal of older material from the continuity. It's worth mentioning even though it's not verifiably true now, since it's at least highly plausible.)

Don't forget about the VF-3 Lightning, which not only showed up as a model in Macross, but was also being flown by Rick Hunter in the first of the Widstorm Robotech comics. From what I hear, that design got sidelined because the Alphas and Betas came on line shortly thereafter. If they weren't up to the task for any reason, it would have been easy to put the Lightning back into production.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:So the Protoculture ships (as in, ships from the rivals of the Zentreadi known as the Protoculture) don't translate to Robotech, but just about everything else from SDFM does.

Erm... in the OSM, the Protoculture was the creators of the Zentradi (and humanity). You're mixing them up with the Supervision Army (main timeline) and/or the Meltrandi Army (DYRLverse), who were the enemy of the Zentradi.

True; and thanks for the correction.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:Personally, I like the notion of the Disciples of Zor, because it gives a place in Robotech for those Protoculture ships: that is, SDFM's Protoculture would become Robotech's Disciples of Zor.

Aaaaaaactually... in keeping with the above correction, the Protoculture civilization from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross would be roughly analogous to the Robotech Masters ("Tirolians") in the Robotech universe. The Supervision Army (to whom the titular ship belonged in the original show) are a faction opposed to the (believed-extinct) Protoculture and their Zentradi forces. Robotech doesn't really have an equivalent to the Supervision Army in its setting.

Well… yes, and no. A big difference between the Tirolians and the Protoculture from SDFM is that the former are contemporaries of the Zentreadi, rather than long-absent creators. As such, the Disciples of Zor (presumably a rogue branch of Tirolians who aligned themselves with Zor instead of the Robotech Masters) could fit the role of the Supervision Army (which, AFAIK, never made any onscreen appearances; only the wreck of one of their ships did) quite well: opposition to the Masters certainly meshes well with opposition to their warrior race.

Heck, the Disciples of Zor may not have even been Tirolians, in part or in whole. Zor might well have organized a resistance network of subject races within the Masters' empire, a network that was so busy fighting for freedom from the Masters that it was caught off guard when the Regent made his move against the Masters' empire. That is, "the Disciples of Zor" might be the Robotech Masters' name for the Sentinels.

The other option that I like to use in my games is that the Disciples of Zor are the Marduk from Macross II: given the similarity between the Marduk and the Robotech Masters (e.g., Emulators vs. Mistresses of the Cosmic Harp), it works well with the "rogue Tirolians" theory. And it lets me reuse much of the Macross II RPG material (though in my Expanded Universe, I tend to relocate Macross spinoff stuff such as Plus, 7, and Frontier from Earth to Eden, the first colony world established even before the Pioneer Expedition left for Tirol, predating the switch from Valkyrie to Alpha).

dataweaver wrote:Don't forget about the VF-3 Lightning, which not only showed up as a model in Macross, but was also being flown by Rick Hunter in the first of the Wildstorm Robotech comics.

'kk, two things. First is, the number for the plane you're thinking of is VF-4... well, VF-X-4, as it had originally appeared in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. IIRC, Robotech refers to the plane as both the VF-X-4 and (later) YF-4. Second is, I don't believe they've ever called it the "Lightning" in Robotech. That name didn't come along in Macross (as a name for the mass-production version first seen in Macross: Flashback 2012 until around 1997. It was nameless until it made its first starring appearance in Macross: Eternal Love Song, one of two prequels to Macross II, where it got its first transformation sequence and the name "Siren". It wasn't until a few years later that a second, completed transformation was given to it and the result was named "Lightning III".

dataweaver wrote:From what I hear, that design got sidelined because the Alphas and Betas came on line shortly thereafter. If they weren't up to the task for any reason, it would have been easy to put the Lightning back into production.

According to the Robotech.com Infopedia, it was supposedly too complex and expensive to mass-produce, so the design was sidelined and eventually supplanted by the VF/A-6 Alpha. If cost was no object, I could see the UEEF or UEDF maybe running a few off to form some kind of elite squadron. I'd always personally imagined (even though there is no basis for it whatsoever) that the Conbat non-transformable fighter was based on the fuselage of the abandoned YF-4 because of their vaguely similar airframe structures.

dataweaver wrote:As such, the Disciples of Zor (presumably a rogue branch of Tirolians who aligned themselves with Zor instead of the Robotech Masters) could fit the role of the Supervision Army (which, AFAIK, never made any onscreen appearances; only the wreck of one of their ships did) [...]

Actually, they have appeared... after a fashion, anyway. If you wanted to be literal about it, the enemy force (Varauta Army) in Macross 7 is essentially a new Supervision Army created by the same people as the first one, for the same job.

dataweaver wrote:That is, "the Disciples of Zor" might be the Robotech Masters' name for the Sentinels.

An interesting theory to be sure, but you'd think something like that would've come up at some point... especially once the Tirolians joined the Sentinels council.

dataweaver wrote:The other option that I like to use in my games is that the Disciples of Zor are the Marduk from Macross II: given the similarity between the Marduk and the Robotech Masters (e.g., Emulators vs. Mistresses of the Cosmic Harp), it works well with the "rogue Tirolians" theory.

In a way, this might be fridge brilliance... the creators of Macross II frequently hinted that the Mardook (correct spelling) from Macross II: Lovers Again are really one of the surviving groups of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization and the rampaging armies of Zentradi and Meltrandi they'd unleashed on each other, as mentioned by the main computer of the colony ship Misa and Hikaru discover in the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:Don't forget about the VF-3 Lightning, which not only showed up as a model in Macross, but was also being flown by Rick Hunter in the first of the Wildstorm Robotech comics.

'kk, two things. First is, the number for the plane you're thinking of is VF-4... well, VF-X-4, as it had originally appeared in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. IIRC, Robotech refers to the plane as both the VF-X-4 and (later) YF-4. Second is, I don't believe they've ever called it the "Lightning" in Robotech. That name didn't come along in Macross (as a name for the mass-production version first seen in Macross: Flashback 2012 until around 1997. It was nameless until it made its first starring appearance in Macross: Eternal Love Song, one of two prequels to Macross II, where it got its first transformation sequence and the name "Siren". It wasn't until a few years later that a second, completed transformation was given to it and the result was named "Lightning III".

I bow to your superior knowledge.

Seto Kaiba wrote:According to the Robotech.com Infopedia, it was supposedly too complex and expensive to mass-produce, so the design was sidelined and eventually supplanted by the VF/A-6 Alpha. If cost was no object, I could see the UEEF or UEDF maybe running a few off to form some kind of elite squadron. I'd always personally imagined (even though there is no basis for it whatsoever) that the Conbat non-transformable fighter was based on the fuselage of the abandoned YF-4 because of their vaguely similar airframe structures.

Still, it would be about as easy to run off a few of these as it would be to design and build some oversized Alphas. Well, about as pricey; considerably easier.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:As such, the Disciples of Zor (presumably a rogue branch of Tirolians who aligned themselves with Zor instead of the Robotech Masters) could fit the role of the Supervision Army (which, AFAIK, never made any onscreen appearances; only the wreck of one of their ships did) [...]

Actually, they have appeared... after a fashion, anyway. If you wanted to be literal about it, the enemy force (Varauta Army) in Macross 7 is essentially a new Supervision Army created by the same people as the first one, for the same job.

That's Macross 7; and even then, you're dealing with a successor to the Supervision Army rather than the Supervision Army itself.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:That is, "the Disciples of Zor" might be the Robotech Masters' name for the Sentinels.

An interesting theory to be sure, but you'd think something like that would've come up at some point... especially once the Tirolians joined the Sentinels council.

Who says that it didn't? We haven't seen much of the Sentinels campaign since Yune relaunched the Robotech universe; the only known appearance of the Sentinels anywhere (besides the treacherous Haydonites) is a handful of panels in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles; it's entirely possible, even probable, that their "Disciples of Zor" moniker came up when Rem and Cabell joined up; but that was after the Masters had already abandoned Tirol and headed for Earth, and would then generally have counted as a bit of irrelevant trivia.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

dataweaver wrote:The other option that I like to use in my games is that the Disciples of Zor are the Marduk from Macross II: given the similarity between the Marduk and the Robotech Masters (e.g., Emulators vs. Mistresses of the Cosmic Harp), it works well with the "rogue Tirolians" theory.

In a way, this might be fridge brilliance... the creators of Macross II frequently hinted that the Mardook (correct spelling) from Macross II: Lovers Again are really one of the surviving groups of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization and the rampaging armies of Zentradi and Meltrandi they'd unleashed on each other, as mentioned by the main computer of the colony ship Misa and Hikaru discover in the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie.

There you go.

dataweaver wrote:I bow to your superior knowledge.

I'm getting too wordy again, aren't I? Ordinarily I'd say to just swat me with something if I get too verbose, but some folks here might take it to heart.

dataweaver wrote:Still, it would be about as easy to run off a few of these as it would be to design and build some oversized Alphas. Well, about as pricey; considerably easier.

Oh, much easier... since the design's already complete and supposedly ready for mass production, even though it never made there in the end. If the performance is anything like what we see for Macross's VF-4 in either universe, I'd almost feel bad for the poor sod on the receiving end. (My favorite bit with it is in the title sequence from Macross M3, where a VF-4G piloted by Max shreds a Glaug and its booster unit with a single well-placed hit from its beam cannons.)

dataweaver wrote:it's entirely possible, even probable, that their "Disciples of Zor" moniker came up when Rem and Cabell joined up; but that was after the Masters had already abandoned Tirol and headed for Earth, and would then generally have counted as a bit of irrelevant trivia.

I'd say it's unlikely, since the "Disciples of Zor" were a pretty big deal as far as the Robotech Masters were concerned... but not beyond the realm of possibility. Robotech has had weirder things in its plot than that.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:That logically leaves room for an Alpha variant to exist that is stretched to address those roles unique to it (Beta) working with the Alpha (basically propulsion). A change in ordance would also be possible, and could be done for other logical reasons.

Only if you assume that there were no other units available in the UEDF/UEEF arsenal which could have easily filled those roles without needing to invent a new unit. There are several possibilities that don't require us to have something as irrational as a jumbo-ized Alpha.

Don't get me wrong, other units could take up some aspects of the Beta's mission, but the issue of the addressing the Alpha's propulsion deficiency is one of the reasons for the Beta's existance, which really doesn't leave one with alot of options:
1. take the hit. We know the REF is willing to do this to some degree given the apparent Alpha to Beta ratio.

2. develop an nt-booster. Could capitilize on the Beta's investment, but the text suggest technology played apart so it could run into the same snag. Still leaves the REF short for some time as the design is worked on.

3. develop a transport. Probably could repurpose an existing design(s) for this. And other applications to boot. If the A/B ratio seen in NG was to remain constant with regard to the -7 Beta deployment, likely already being done.

4. Fast Pack, though given the Alpha design placement is going to be more restricted than on TRM/TMS units I would figure.

5. stretched model. The POSSIBILITY exists in the animation if it isn't treated as an AE or similiar looking mecha. There maybe another example of a giant Alpha (not shadow) seen among the remains at Point K (Robotech Research has a shot of it up under REF aircraft #2 picture #0). The Alpha's head looks like it has an oversized "brain". Nothing in the shot to give a true sense of scale as we probably lack info on the aircraft in question, so it is very subjective.

6. Propellant storage could be enhanced by replacing the Cyclone bay with a fuel tank (that gives 1,155 liters of volume to work with if the Cyclone's box volume isn't to differnt than cycle mode). If we treat the uRRG as correct in this instance, that would give the Alpha a delta-v of ~200kps (for comparision VFs top out at >15kps w/o extra tank which if included still wouldn't get the range).

Seto Kaiba wrote:I'd always personally imagined (even though there is no basis for it whatsoever) that the Conbat non-transformable fighter was based on the fuselage of the abandoned YF-4 because of their vaguely similar airframe structures.

The idea isn't unique and would be one way to re-capitilize on the investment. Wasn't TY's Gamma concept like a hybrid between the two in looks? IIRC there was even a fan take that the Conbat could be a VF because of the VF-X-4.

Carpenter's Fighters might be another example (only with the Alphas) of an nt-spinoff design.

Dataweaver wrote:As well, time and effort spent on developing and producing an oversized Alpha is time and effort not spent on developing and producing the Beta. And the engineering challenges in reworking a vehicle design on a different scale are considerable: it's not as simple as "just increase the dimensions of everything by 50% and call it good".

Except the Beta was canceled in 2022, meaning no more work was being done on it until it was revived between Lunk's being cut off from the REF and NG#1. So unless the REF was willing to accept the loss of capablities the Beta would bring, it would look to fill those in with other platforms. We know the Conbat was to handle some of the Beta's roles, but it could not do all of them.

I realize that scaling up is not necessarily that simple and could be the equivalent of developing a new platform. What we do know is that in real-life some aircraft have different sized models, so a RT mecha recieveing an increase in size for models wouldn't be out of the question.

Dataweaver wrote:In essence, designing an oversized Alpha would probably take as much work as developing a Beta.

It should take less work as you don't have to meet all the Beta's mission roles.

Creating an oversized Alpha doesn't solve any problems concerning the normal-sized Alpha's deficiencies; it merely provides you with a separate unit that happens to have a similar appearance: it wouldn't actually be an Alpha. Personally, I think that the development of a separate "Trans-Earth Deployment Booster" (based on the artwork on page 60 of the imai files; also, google the term) would be a more likely solution for the temporary absence of a full Beta fighter. It would be simpler to design, as it wouldn't be a mecha in its own right; just a booster.

That said, even if such a thing proved difficult for the same reason that the Alpha/Beta linkage proved difficult, that would simply mean that you'd need to rely on Horizons and Garfishes to give your Alphas trans-atmospheric capabilities in the meantime; it wouldn't make the oversized Alpha any better of a solution to the Alpha's deficiencies. And I don't buy that replacing the on-board cyclone with more fuel would solve the problem, either.

And going back to the imai files: who else would like to see some of the "Inbit" designs from said files (pp.30-34,63-65) pressed into service as additional Invid types to help further distinguish the Regent's forces from the Regess' forces?

ShadowLogan wrote:

ESalter wrote:Personally, I'm inclined to ignore "scale-change" variants; they seem unrealistic.

Why would they be unrealistic? Larger variants do occur:
-The F/A-18E/F/G variants are larger than the A-D versions
-The F-35C has a larger wing than the A model
-The A-6E is smaller than an EA-6B Prowler
-The F-111 and EF-111 are of different sizes

Take the A-6 as an example: the EA-6 is longer because it takes the A-6 frame and lengthens the cockpit; the "Vindicator," OTOH, is "stretched" an equal amount in every direction: in other words, it looks exactly like a Shadow Fighter despite having no common parts.

ShadowLogan wrote:And that ingores sub-scale demonstrators.

I assume demonstrators are only equipped for test purposes; the "Vindicator" would be fully functional, with oversized systems.

rtsurfer wrote:The primary role of the Beta/Shadow Beta seems to be as a weapons platform/booster for the Alpha/Super Alpha-Fighter. I hope most of the Betas we see in the tv series (and SC) aren't transformable, otherwise they seriously wasted resources.

Not necessarily: if produced by auto-factories, per-unit price might be almost zero.

dataweaver wrote:the Disciples of Zor (presumably a rogue branch of Tirolians who aligned themselves with Zor instead of the Robotech Masters)

I'd guess "Disciples of Zor" is the Robotech Masters' name for various Zor-worshiping cults: a category rather than an organization (they didn't seem to even have a space fleet).

dataweaver wrote:Heck, the Disciples of Zor may not have even been Tirolians, in part or in whole. Zor might well have organized a resistance network of subject races within the Masters' empire, a network that was so busy fighting for freedom from the Masters that it was caught off guard when the Regent made his move against the Masters' empire. That is, "the Disciples of Zor" might be the Robotech Masters' name for the Sentinels.

Clever. That would fit their relationship with Zor in RA3.

I still say the best idea thus far is using the oversized "Alpha Battloid" as JUST a battloid and making it the replacement for the Condor as of Reflex Point.....


As for the the VF-X-4/YF-4/VF-4......I place in Robotech as a limited run model that was used for Space Interception/Superiority.

RA3 - Robotech Art 3

jaymz wrote:I still say the best idea thus far is using the oversized "Alpha Battloid" as JUST a battloid and making it the replacement for the Condor as of Reflex Point.....

Agreed: that's the least unlikely of the proposed explanations for an oversized Alpha. Though even there, I find myself wondering why it would look exactly like a scaled-up Alpha. As I mentioned before, you can't simply increase the dimensions on a design and expect the resulting product to work; this holds just as true for a battloid as it does for a veritech.

I'm not saying that one couldn't make a battloid that looks exactly like a giant Alpha. But unless that was the intent, it seems like a really bizarre coincidence; and if that was the intent, I have to ask "why"? What benefit would one get from making "looks like an oversized Alpha" a design priority?

dataweaver wrote:

jaymz wrote:I still say the best idea thus far is using the oversized "Alpha Battloid" as JUST a battloid and making it the replacement for the Condor as of Reflex Point.....

Agreed: that's the least unlikely of the proposed explanations for an oversized Alpha. Though even there, I find myself wondering why it would look exactly like a scaled-up Alpha. As I mentioned before, you can't simply increase the dimensions on a design and expect the resulting product to work; this holds just as true for a battloid as it does for a veritech.

I'm not saying that one couldn't make a battloid that looks exactly like a giant Alpha. But unless that was the intent, it seems like a really bizarre coincidence; and if that was the intent, I have to ask "why"? What benefit would one get from making "looks like an oversized Alpha" a design priority?

to confuse the enemy. (maybe)
if it look similar enough to a Battiloid Alpha the enemy might confuse the enemy who would have to rely on visuals when targeting.
and I thought they Favored the giant Shadow fighters in battloid more?

If the Alpha/Shadow Alpha production facilities are automated, it might have simply been a matter of changing the settings so that the machines fabricated larger SA parts. Which were then attached to either an also upsized SA frame or another mecha's frame. Alphas/Shadow Alphas and Betas were apparently the primary large mechas being produced at the time so if they were going to produce a limited run heavier armored mecha they might temporarily use one of those production lines, hence it looks like a larger SA.
It appears from the animation that the REF primarily uses the Beta as a booster & weapons augmentation for the attached Alphas/SAs. Besides the one used by Scott's group, I don't believe the animation ever shows a Beta/Shadow Beta transform other than deploying its legs to slow down the A/B & SA/SB combos. Is there even any indication the B/SB are manned other than the one used by Scott's group? Its possible the REF didn't have confidence in the Beta/SB as a stand alone mecha, especially its battloid mode, so they produced a limited run up-scaled SA (at lest one that looks like a SA) to lead the attack on Reflex Point and support other mecha involved in that charge.

rtsurfer wrote:If the Alpha/Shadow Alpha production facilities are automated, it might have simply been a matter of changing the settings so that the machines fabricated larger SA parts.

It's never "simply" a matter of changing the settings so that the machines fabricate larger parts. A brace that can support twice its own weight at one meter long will struggle to support its own weight if you double its dimensions, and will be wholly inadequate to manage even that much if you triple its weight. A cooling system that can handle a mech's needs at its normal dimensions will be overwhelmed by the demands of a double-sized mecha, even if you double its dimensions. And so on. There's a reason why larger mecha tend to be short and squat while smaller mecha are comparatively tall and lean.

Then again, this is the same setting that has Zentreadi running around in it; so perhaps whatever bizarre quirk of physics or engineering that allows a Zentreadi to exist would also allow an upscaled Alpha to exist.

Gryphon wrote:Ummm..maybe its actually a battloid version of a Shadow Alpha base don heavily reconditioned Condors then? The Condor is like what, ~35-40' tall, right? *Goes and looks it up real quick* 42' then, about the size we all think the Vindy is, right? So we could say this is a modernized form, probably even newly built rather than SLEP type updated, for use by "marine" style assault forces, maybe even Marine Force Recon special forces type units.

Though this makes the Condor a bit less sensible in the long run, because one of the reasons I thought it was used was parts commonality with the Alpha, and a fighter ~50% more massive is NOT going to have squat for commonality here. Even the fuel pumps would be different! Man, my dislike for the Condor grows by leaps and bounds here, this thing really should have been left as a heavy variable attack fighter instead.

Oh well, this doesn't cover the Vindy real well after all, but is still works as an explanation for why their were much taller Alpha looking battloids...sort of I guess.

And if the Condor actually transformed.... then this would work as the finalization of the Transformable Condor's with Shadow Equipment!

Will address things from several posts

1 - Not everything would be scaled up the same obviously. Perhaps it is a basic Alpha frame with larger external parts thus why it is larger and looks the same because larger external parts were easier to fit to the basic Alpha frame?

2 - The Condor is larger than the Alpha as it is so parts commonality is essentially moot and would be the same for a Vindicator Battloid

3 - A battloid only look-a-like enlarged Alpha still makes more sense to me than a fully transformable one.

dataweaver wrote:
And going back to the imai files: who else would like to see some of the "Inbit" designs from said files (pp.30-34,63-65) pressed into service as additional Invid types to help further distinguish the Regent's forces from the Regess' forces?

Already planning to do that myself as I have done with the cylone and Power armour images as well as the variant Alpha images (armoured etc) and TREAD etc.

Can't remember if it was this thread or not and too lazy to check but this gallery has a Male -038 Cyclone and a Female -052.

http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/Veritech/cyclone_gallery.html

jaymz wrote:Can't remember if it was this thread or not and too lazy to check but this gallery has a Male -038 Cyclone and a Female -052.

http://ptn.home.xs4all.nl/Veritech/cyclone_gallery.html

I remember seeing those before....the Battler with Female pilot looks good...the LT with male pilot looks like a bad trace job.


As for the Condor....I am thinking that PB needs to either adjust the height down or the weight up....The 42 ft Condor weighs 15.7 tons and the 28.7 ft Alpha weighs 16.7 tons?

Chris0013 wrote:

As for the Condor....I am thinking that PB needs to either adjust the height down or the weight up....The 42 ft Condor weighs 15.7 tons and the 28.7 ft Alpha weighs 16.7 tons?

Lack of transformation gear could be the explanation.....maybe.

jaymz wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:

As for the Condor....I am thinking that PB needs to either adjust the height down or the weight up....The 42 ft Condor weighs 15.7 tons and the 28.7 ft Alpha weighs 16.7 tons?

Lack of transformation gear could be the explanation.....maybe.

No...that 12 foot difference would have to be 3 or 4 extra tons at least. I could see lack of transformation gear and lighter payload on a 24 - 28 foot condor being the reason for the weight difference as it appears though.

Agreed. Personally, I'd adjust the height down: the Condor's capabilities are a good fit with its weight, and the height simply doesn't mesh with either the preproduction sketches (such as the one found in the imai file) or with its appearance in the Invasion comic, where it appears to be roughly the same height that an Alpha would be (though it's hard to tell, as you never get a clean side-by-side comparison between a Condor and anything else). Chalk it up to the RPG equivalent of an animation error.

Wow... wordy. Clearly my particular illness is contagious.

ShadowLogan wrote:Don't get me wrong, other units could take up some aspects of the Beta's mission, but the issue of the addressing the Alpha's propulsion deficiency is one of the reasons for the Beta's existance, which really doesn't leave one with alot of options:
1. take the hit. We know the REF is willing to do this to some degree given the apparent Alpha to Beta ratio.

Well, there you have it... even in the Shadow Chronicles OVA, wherein Harmony Gold dramatically increases the number of Dark Legioss and TREAD units present at the battle in MOSPEADA's final episode, they don't seem to consider the plane's limited operational endurance and range much of an impediment in what they're asking it to do.

ShadowLogan wrote:2. develop an nt-booster. Could capitilize on the Beta's investment, but the text suggest technology played apart so it could run into the same snag. Still leaves the REF short for some time as the design is worked on.

NT Booster? I'm not sure, because it's been one hell of a day and my brain is FRIED, you're meaning to say "non-transformable booster" here. I may be wrong. The idea of having the non-transformable type booster pack certainly has precedent in the concept art and OSM.

ShadowLogan wrote:3. develop a transport. Probably could repurpose an existing design(s) for this. And other applications to boot. If the A/B ratio seen in NG was to remain constant with regard to the -7 Beta deployment, likely already being done.

Isn't that basically what the Garfish-class w/ hangar is? A light, rapid-response Alpha carrier? Kinda puts me in the same mind as the Valhalla III type stealth carriers which were central to the story in Macross VF-X2.

ShadowLogan wrote:4. Fast Pack, though given the Alpha design placement is going to be more restricted than on TRM/TMS units I would figure.

Been there, done that... in the Shadow Chronicles movie. I think we can rule this out as an early measure though, since it was a new gimmick in 2044.

ShadowLogan wrote:5. stretched model.

Oversized would be the least practical possible answer to the question... mostly because of the materials and manufacturing requirements involved.

ShadowLogan wrote:6. Propellant storage could be enhanced by replacing the Cyclone bay with a fuel tank (that gives 1,155 liters of volume to work with if the Cyclone's box volume isn't to differnt than cycle mode).

That's a solid idea... but I think you're missing one that's even simpler than this and FAST packs. Something very real, and very much in use in modern aviation:

Drop tanks.

Now, we know the Alpha doesn't have any exterior ordinance stations on its wings or body, and using them would cause interesting problems for the transformation system... but the idea of a drop tank that would be ejected before entering combat neatly solves the issues both of range and operational endurance. A simple wing mounted tank that could be used prior to battle to extent the plane's limited operational range in space, and removed at the point the fighter enters the combat zone, leaving it with a full tank when it enters combat.

ShadowLogan wrote:The idea isn't unique and would be one way to re-capitilize on the investment. Wasn't TY's Gamma concept like a hybrid between the two in looks? IIRC there was even a fan take that the Conbat could be a VF because of the VF-X-4.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a hybrid of the two looks, to me it looked more like a slightly more angular Conbat, an application of Legioss (Alpha) aesthetics to the less blocky Conbat airframe.

dataweaver wrote:There's a reason why larger mecha tend to be short and squat while smaller mecha are comparatively tall and lean.

As much as I've agreed with the rest of your arguments, in the interest of fairness I gotta puncture this particular assertion. Robotech demonstrates the reverse of this idea... the larger mecha (VF-1 et. al.) are comparatively tall and lean where the smaller mecha in the series (Alpha, Beta, Logan, Spartas) are squat and short.

dataweaver wrote:Then again, this is the same setting that has Zentreadi running around in it; so perhaps whatever bizarre quirk of physics or engineering that allows a Zentreadi to exist would also allow an upscaled Alpha to exist.

If you go by the OSM, the thing that allows the Zentradi to exist at 10m in size is a massive difference in their biochemistry. They're not violating the square-cubed law, they're merely working around it by being made of sterner stuff in the most literal sense imaginable. If you want more detail, I can provide... but it's kinda OT so I'll stop here for now.

Oh, I believe it. The part that tends to snap my reality suspenders is the idea that the "sterner stuff" is in any way organic. To be just five times as tall as a human while maintaining human proportions, you'd need to be made of something quite literally as strong as steel. And there's more to the square-cube law than just forces ans stress; a body mass that's five times as tall would have over a hundred times the mass; and unless its biochemistry is severely curtailed, that would mean that it generates over a hundred times as much body heat; but it only has slightly more than twenty times as much skin to use in dissipating that heat. And that's just two of a multitude of problems that crop up when you scale something up.

In order for full-sized Zentreadi to work, they need to be made of solid handwavium.

As for "bigger is more squat", let's keep our comparisons within one show: the Beta is bulkier than the Alpha; the Monster is bulkier than the Valkyrie.

Imai Files Discussion
@dataweaver
From the RT.com infopedia (appears in all VFA-6 entries) "However, the limited fuel tankage of this craft gives it short legs in space, a deficiency that led to the development of the Beta Fighter, to which this mecha can attach. In addition, the Alpha can not reach suborbital altitudes on its own, and also required the Beta for this."

Giving the Alpha additional fuel would give it longer legs in space, which is a noted deficiency and a reason for the Beta fighter to exist.

Given that some real world vehicles follow size changes and are still considered to still be in the family of their smaller siblings I don't see why the Alpha should be any different. The Alpha may not have made the jump in sizes in one go, it may have occurred over a series of intervals. We are assuming it went it in one go and stayed static, that may not be the case.

As for use of the imai files mecha. Personally I'd rather see HG create new stuff on their own instead of reusing OSM material. It would certainly be easier and require less legal wranging I would imagine.

@ESalter
The A-6/EA-6 might not be the best example, but it does illustrate that craft can physically grow between models. Not all the changes can be the result of the cockpit in every instance.

@Chris0013:
Well the Condor is about the size of a VF-1 in both height and mass. The added mass might come from the MM-42 if compared to the VF-1. If compared to the Beta the Condor is lighter, but that could be from not having 3 huge engines for propulsion.

The mass/size ratios in RT are a screwy due to the OSM and TY's idea of a "technological downgrade" post TMS.


@Seto Kaiba
1. Well TSC does make a disconnect between what they tell us in text (based on OSM) and show us concerning the Alpha's space performance.

2. nt-booster = non-transformable booster. Yes it certainly has some precedent in the concept art. And we do see RT attempt non-transformable designs from VTs (condor specifically, Conbat potentially).

3. While the REF likely is developing a transport anyway they are going to be more dependant on it in certain areas than before with regard to missions involving the Alphas where they originally expeted the Beta to handle some of it. If you need to transfer only one or two Alphas is a Garfish/Horizon-T really the best resource to use?

4. Well we know the gmmick isn't new persay in RT.

5. I'm not sure about that. Yes in regards to development comparted to a nt-booster or FAST pack setup. No in regards in operations this would be more practical. The stretched version would not take up nearly as much hanger space as an nt-booster PLUS Alpha. It would have fast prep time. The profile of the Alpha likely will still be smaller than if it used a booster (A/B as refrence) or FAST-pack (VF-1).

7. External/Drop tanks might work to, there are problems with them. One is the placement and transormation setup as you said. Compared to an internal tank they would not be as flexible with mission execution and would simplify logistics (storage space would be available for other things).

Options 2, 4, and 7 do not appear in the show and could indicate they where not done. Option 6 being an internal change would be hard to say one way or the other (might explain TSC's disconnect). Option 5 at the very least has animation (errors they maybe) in the show that could be interpretted as happening.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given that some real world vehicles follow size changes and are still considered to still be in the family of their smaller siblings I don't see why the Alpha should be any different. The Alpha may not have made the jump in sizes in one go, it may have occurred over a series of intervals. We are assuming it went it in one go and stayed static, that may not be the case.

Let's assume for the moment that an oversized Alpha does exist, that it's transformable, that it has the ability to reach orbit on its own, and that it's considered to be an Alpha variant: everything you've been arguing for. Good for it. But meanwhile, the normal-sized Alphas are still out there, and they still lack the ability to reach orbit without assistance. The introduction of an oversized Alpha has done nothing to solve their problem. And so it can't be considered to be a solution to their problem.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for use of the imai files mecha. Personally I'd rather see HG create new stuff on their own instead of reusing OSM material. It would certainly be easier and require less legal wranging I would imagine.

Can't they do both? AFAICT, the Silverback is something that Yune invented himself; but the Myrmidon and the Tiger both came from OSM. Apparently, HG has a free hand to reuse stuff from SDCSC and Mospeada; it's only with SDFM that any sort of legal wrangling crops up.

ShadowLogan wrote:@Chris0013:
Well the Condor is about the size of a VF-1 in both height and mass. The added mass might come from the MM-42 if compared to the VF-1. If compared to the Beta the Condor is lighter, but that could be from not having 3 huge engines for propulsion.

As I mentioned before, keep your comparisons within one show. There's something off about Alpha stats vs. Valkyrie stats; but that's an artifact of the Alpha trying to stay true to Mospeada source material while the Valkyrie tries to stay true to SDFM source material; and the sources conflict, with Mospeada stuff having a higher mass-to-volume ratio than the SDFM stuff.

The Condor is lighter than the Alpha, by a ton. By the stats given, it's nearly 50% taller as well as being both wider and longer (it also has that beak, which means that it ought to be significantly longer than the Alpha, even if their heights were comparable; certainly more than one meter of difference). Aside from that beak, the silhouette of a Condor isn't that much different from the silhouette of an Alpha; so if it's 50% taller than the Alpha, it should be at least 50% heavier, and could conceivably be as much as three times as heavy. (In that regard, the Beta is a bit on the light side compared to the Alpha, considering its significantly larger dimensions all around.) There's something wonky about the Condor's physical stats.

ShadowLogan wrote:@Seto Kaiba
3. While the REF likely is developing a transport anyway they are going to be more dependent on it in certain areas than before with regard to missions involving the Alphas where they originally expeted the Beta to handle some of it. If you need to transfer only one or two Alphas is a Garfish/Horizon-T really the best resource to use?

If it's the only resource you have, then yes; it's the best resource to use.

ShadowLogan wrote:5. I'm not sure about that. Yes in regards to development compared to a nt-booster or FAST pack setup. No in regards in operations this would be more practical. The stretched version would not take up nearly as much hanger space as an nt-booster PLUS Alpha. It would have fast prep time. The profile of the Alpha likely will still be smaller than if it used a booster (A/B as reference) or FAST-pack (VF-1).

And here you're talking about replacing the Alpha with a stretch model. Which makes me wonder why there would be any "normal-sized" Alphas left, let alone why they'd be in the majority.

ShadowLogan wrote:7. External/Drop tanks might work too, there are problems with them. One is the placement and transormation setup as you said. Compared to an internal tank they would not be as flexible with mission execution and would simplify logistics (storage space would be available for other things).

True; but that's not an argument against them. There's a reason why the UEEF didn't just abandon the Beta-booster concept and stick to whatever interim measures they took: the Beta-booster was at least as good as the alternative(s).

I STILL say the simplest and easiest fix is a Battloid only unit that can be the Condors replacement

Are the Shadow Alpha-Fighters & Shadow Betas NEW off the production line or are they Shadow REFITS of existing Alphas & Betas with new paint jobs? For that matter, how many of the capital ships are Shadow refits with a new paint job rather than brand new Shadow vessels?

I'd say a large portion would be refits. Only way to get a force that size that ready, that fast.

jaymz wrote:I STILL say the simplest and easiest fix is a Battloid only unit that can be the Condors replacement

but who wants a simple answer... when a complex one is so much... "Easier"....

Are the Shadow Alpha-Fighters & Shadow Betas NEW off the production line or are they Shadow REFITS of existing Alphas & Betas with new paint jobs? For that matter, how many of the capital ships are Shadow refits with a new paint job rather than brand new Shadow vessels?

Dialog in Shadow Chronicles is a bit iffy... that maybe most of the units in the battle of reflex point are new units... least the dialog that Maya has with her team about the Alpha's they borrow at SSL are new, but yet to have the SD's placed in them

dataweaver wrote:Oh, I believe it. The part that tends to snap my reality suspenders is the idea that the "sterner stuff" is in any way organic.

You'd be surprised... mother nature's got some pretty freaky stuff right here on Earth. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

dataweaver wrote:In order for full-sized Zentreadi to work, they need to be made of solid handwavium.

Good thing they're a product of "sufficiently advanced" aliens then, isn't it?

ShadowLogan wrote:As for use of the imai files mecha. Personally I'd rather see HG create new stuff on their own instead of reusing OSM material. It would certainly be easier and require less legal wranging I would imagine.

Insofar as "legal wrangling" goes, it's only really an issue with the use of material from the original Macross and, to a lesser extent, Southern Cross. It's partly what they can't use, but mostly what they can't use the material for that raises problems. No such problems exist with Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, however... which is a shame, since there's much less provocative and viable concept art for that series compared to the two owned by Big West.

ShadowLogan wrote:The mass/size ratios in RT are a screwy due to the OSM and TY's idea of a "technological downgrade" post TMS.

More so the former than the latter, in all honesty. The mass-to-size ratios are a bit loopy because each show is about humanity's first alien war and first transforming mecha, which gets problematic because the settings of the original three show considerable variation on the technological advancement front.

ShadowLogan wrote:1. Well TSC does make a disconnect between what they tell us in text (based on OSM) and show us concerning the Alpha's space performance.

Only if you assume that Harmony Gold's creative staff was conversant in the real physics of space flight at the time they made the OVA. All told, there's more than ample cause to say they either don't know or don't care, and that the apparent disconnect is the result of a bit of dramatic license. (It's not exactly common for SF/mecha shows to get the physics right when it comes to space flight. I'm a big mecha nut, and the only show I can think of that consistently gets it right is Gundam.)

ShadowLogan wrote:2. nt-booster = non-transformable booster. Yes it certainly has some precedent in the concept art. And we do see RT attempt non-transformable designs from VTs (condor specifically, Conbat potentially).

Okay, good. I'm not going (even further) insane. I've been doing translations out of the Master Archive Mobile Suit: Earth Federation Forces RGM-79 GM book, so NT first struck me as "Newtype", which obviously didn't fit.

ShadowLogan wrote:3. While the REF likely is developing a transport anyway they are going to be more dependant on it in certain areas than before with regard to missions involving the Alphas where they originally expeted the Beta to handle some of it. If you need to transfer only one or two Alphas is a Garfish/Horizon-T really the best resource to use?

Personally, I would question what kind of field operations you would need only one or two Alphas for? If you have a stealth carrier that's completely invisible to the enemy, why not use it to deploy multiple reconnaissance teams and recover them once their mission is over?

ShadowLogan wrote:5. I'm not sure about that. Yes in regards to development comparted to a nt-booster or FAST pack setup. No in regards in operations this would be more practical.

But, at that point, why keep building the Alpha at all if you have a plane that can do all of the same jobs (and more) without the chief operational limitation the Alpha has that made the Beta a necessity in the first place?

ShadowLogan wrote:7. External/Drop tanks might work to, there are problems with them. One is the placement and transormation setup as you said. Compared to an internal tank they would not be as flexible with mission execution and would simplify logistics (storage space would be available for other things).

Placement issues, maybe... but not transformation, if they're used the way a conventional drop tank is. They'd be used for fighter mode flight to get the fighter where it needs to go and then simply jettisoned before entering the combat area so they wouldn't get underfoot (or crushed between moving parts). Good examples of this can be found in the Macross Zero OVA.

dataweaver wrote:The Condor is lighter than the Alpha, by a ton. By the stats given, it's nearly 50% taller as well as being both wider and longer [...]

Sadly, the stats given don't match what's in the show or the production materials, another case of Palladium inexplicably changing numbers so they no longer match what's actually in the show. No mass is cited for the Condor armo-soldier, but its height actually makes the mecha slightly smaller than a Legioss (Alpha). It should be comparable to, or marginally lighter than, a Legioss (less than or equal to 16,700kg). I'm inclined to lead towards the "marginally less" end, since it doesn't have a transformation-based design (less mechanical complexity), and it's carrying a lot less armament.

rtsurfer wrote:Are the Shadow Alpha-Fighters & Shadow Betas NEW off the production line or are they Shadow REFITS of existing Alphas & Betas with new paint jobs? For that matter, how many of the capital ships are Shadow refits with a new paint job rather than brand new Shadow vessels?

Unclear on the fighter-mode front, though the way the loyalist UEEF forces talk about them in the "Prelude" limited series, the most likely explanation is that many or all of the VF/A-6X Shadow fighters were new. (This works somewhat better if you take stock of the original GCM, where Dark stealth fighters only made up about 1/5 of the 3rd Earth Recapture Force strength, and the rest were unmodified Legioss units.)

Based on the dialogue between Admiral Hunter and ambassadors L'Ron and Veidt (also from Prelude), much of the fleet is old ships that were retrofitted with shadow technology in the period between Edwards' betrayal in 2043 and the Battle of Reflex Point in 2044.

Imai Files Discussion
@dataweaver
Given the apparent ratio in numbers between the Alpha and the Beta seen in the animation, it would seem that only SOME NOT ALL of the Alphas in the inventory need the enhanced performance offered by the Beta. That would translate over to the small/stretched ratio. A stretched version might not do anything for an individual Alpha in regard to the defeciency, but in the overall REF VF fleet capabilities it does.

As for the Condor height/mass disparity. I know it is a result of sticking to the OSM and not making adjustments to create a technical continuity in RT, instead it is justified by TY's idea of a "downgrade" for TRM/NG from TMS.

While a transport of that size may be the only one available you are wasting alot of capability.

As for the imai files. I would rather they don't. I want the OSM minimized in (preferably out of) RT.

@seto Kaiba

t, at that point, why keep building the Alpha at all if you have a plane that can do all of the same jobs (and more) without the chief operational limitation the Alpha has that made the Beta a necessity in the first place?

Though that question can also be asked in regard when the Beta is put into production. Or why go the split route in the first place (Alpha/Beta). The answer is whatever rationale the REF had in the Alpha/Beta mix would likely also apply to the regular/stretched mix.

Personally, I would question what kind of field operations you would need only one or two Alphas for? If you have a stealth carrier that's completely invisible to the enemy, why not use it to deploy multiple reconnaissance teams and recover them once their mission is over?

Standard "air" Patrol, transfer of units from the surface to orbit (ferry flight, but other scenerios are possible), Medium Range Recon flight, etc.

Your stealth carrier is more applicable in later NG, but what about in the 2020s-2030s and into early 2040s prior to the Shadow Systems?

ShadowLogan wrote:Given the apparent ratio in numbers between the Alpha and the Beta seen in the animation, it would seem that only SOME NOT ALL of the Alphas in the inventory need the enhanced performance offered by the Beta.

Or, to put forth the actual reason (from the OSM), the mission parameters for the 2nd and 3rd Earth Recapture Force attacks would've made attaching a TREAD to every Legioss unit incredibly counterproductive. The TREAD/Beta doesn't really offer that much improvement for the Legioss/Alpha when docked, and the units whose task was to dive into the planet's atmosphere and either attack hives or secure beachheads for landing troops likely wouldn't find lugging around an incredibly heavy bomber with poor aerodynamics particularly helpful.

Essentially, it's not that "some, not all" Alphas need the enhanced performance which the Beta offers... it's that a docked Beta is only really beneficial in certain circumstances, much like the VF-1's Super Pack.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the imai files. I would rather they don't. I want the OSM minimized in (preferably out of) RT.

Sir, I fear you are doomed to disappointment.

ShadowLogan wrote:Though that question can also be asked in regard when the Beta is put into production. Or why go the split route in the first place (Alpha/Beta). The answer is whatever rationale the REF had in the Alpha/Beta mix would likely also apply to the regular/stretched mix.

Eh... that doesn't really make a heck of a lot of sense. I mean, we know that the Beta is meant to do a fairly specific job. It's there to give the Alpha enough oomph to get orbital, and occasionally to operate in concert with the Alpha as a heavier fighter-bomber. There isn't the same rationale with the alleged "giant Alpha", because the supposed benefits you ascribe to its existence raise the same question that the RPG stats for the VF-1 do... the rather damning question "Why bother with a regular Alpha at all, then?".

ShadowLogan wrote:Standard "air" Patrol, transfer of units from the surface to orbit (ferry flight, but other scenerios are possible), Medium Range Recon flight, etc.

If they're running CAP or mid-range recon, then they're already operating out of a base or a cruiser within their operational range... waste not, want not, other circumstances like that transfer of units from surface to orbit (or vice versa) is going to be accomplished a lot more efficiently by a Horizon-T/V or similar.

ShadowLogan wrote:Your stealth carrier is more applicable in later NG, but what about in the 2020s-2030s and into early 2040s prior to the Shadow Systems?

Well, at least as per AoTSC the Alpha was designed with passive stealth in mind, though it rings false to anyone with even a basic understanding of how radar stealth works. There's certainly the possibility that a smaller carrier might have an active stealth system of some description, though admittedly conventional stealth means bugger-all when you're fighting the Invid.

ShadowLogan wrote:Well, at least as per AoTSC the Alpha was designed with passive stealth in mind, though it rings false to anyone with even a basic understanding of how radar stealth works. There's certainly the possibility that a smaller carrier might have an active stealth system of some description, though admittedly conventional stealth means bugger-all when you're fighting the Invid.

It has occurred to me in the past that a lot about Sentinels vs. New Generation would make a heck of a lot more sense if we were to assume that the Protoculture sensing capabilities were an innovation of the Regess' forces, and not a standard-issue feature shared by all Invid. It would neatly explain why Scott was as surprised as anyone by Rand's assertion that the Protoculture systems were attracting the Invid, and it would mean that mecha and spacecraft designed to go up against the Regent's Invid could make do with more traditional means of stealth et al.

dataweaver wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Well, at least as per AoTSC the Alpha was designed with passive stealth in mind, though it rings false to anyone with even a basic understanding of how radar stealth works. There's certainly the possibility that a smaller carrier might have an active stealth system of some description, though admittedly conventional stealth means bugger-all when you're fighting the Invid.

It has occurred to me in the past that a lot about Sentinels vs. New Generation would make a heck of a lot more sense if we were to assume that the Protoculture sensing capabilities were an innovation of the Regess' forces, and not a standard-issue feature shared by all Invid. It would neatly explain why Scott was as surprised as anyone by Rand's assertion that the Protoculture systems were attracting the Invid, and it would mean that mecha and spacecraft designed to go up against the Regent's Invid could make do with more traditional means of stealth et al.

That's not the only conflict they could have resolved if they had designed a completely new set of mecha for the Regent's Invid, instead of just reusing the GCM designs but apparently it was cheaper and easier not to create new designs. In light of using shared mecha, after TNG was already aired, your suggestion would have been wise -- keep some aspects of the Invid for the Regis and TNG only.

They don't need a completely new set of mecha for the Regent, though I'm not opposed to that idea; I've suggested before that some of the imai Inbit designs could be used for this purpose. (As well, the whole concept of the Inorganics was apparently to help differentiate the Regent's Invid from the Regess' Invid.) All you really need to do is to replace the Regess' Protoculture Sensors with more traditional sensor options for the Regent's forces: say that the Protoculture Sensors were something that the Regess came up with in her search for Zor, and that the Regent was unaware of or uninterested in them. The Regent could still have Scouts, Fighter Scouts, Troopers, Shock Troopers, Enforcers, and Soldiers; but his models would mount regular sensor packages rather than Protoculture sensors.

As well, I don't think that any of the post-reboot canon actually says that the Regent's mecha have Protoculture Sensors: the Shadow Chronicles RPG deals with the Regess' Invid, and the only remaining canon concerning the war with the Regent is found in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. Even assuming that the Sentinels video is canon (and I do tend to assume that), there's nothing there explicitly about the Regent's mecha having Protoculture sensors: the focus is entirely on the new Inorganics and their weapons and armor. AFAICT, the only places where Protoculture sensors are mentioned in connection with the Regent are the Sentinels novels and the Sentinels comics, both of which are now of questionable veracity.

In short, the removal of the bulk of Sentinels from primary canon status opens up the possibility for the Regent's forces to diverge more from the Regess' forces than they did in the pre-reboot material; and the presence or absence of the Protoculture sensors is a subtle enough difference that it could easily fit into the potentially larger gap.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Are the Shadow Alpha-Fighters & Shadow Betas NEW off the production line or are they Shadow REFITS of existing Alphas & Betas with new paint jobs? For that matter, how many of the capital ships are Shadow refits with a new paint job rather than brand new Shadow vessels?

Dialog in Shadow Chronicles is a bit iffy... that maybe most of the units in the battle of reflex point are new units... least the dialog that Maya has with her team about the Alpha's they borrow at SSL are new, but yet to have the SD's placed in them

This got me thinking, how exactly are the Super Shadow Alpha Fighter & Beta different from the standard SA/B? Is there a size difference, a notable structural difference, new engines or just the add-ons? If its just the add-ons, could the standard A/B & SA/B be modified to accept the super enhancements?
I guess the thing that puzzles me the most is why they deployed untested WMD, the devastating Neutron S, but left the Super Shadows sitting in SSL?

dataweaver wrote:They don't need a completely new set of mecha for the Regent, though I'm not opposed to that idea; I've suggested before that some of the imai Inbit designs could be used for this purpose. (As well, the whole concept of the Inorganics was apparently to help differentiate the Regent's Invid from the Regess' Invid.) All you really need to do is to replace the Regess' Protoculture Sensors with more traditional sensor options for the Regent's forces: say that the Protoculture Sensors were something that the Regess came up with in her search for Zor, and that the Regent was unaware of or uninterested in them. The Regent could still have Scouts, Fighter Scouts, Troopers, Shock Troopers, Enforcers, and Soldiers; but his models would mount regular sensor packages rather than Protoculture sensors.

As well, I don't think that any of the post-reboot canon actually says that the Regent's mecha have Protoculture Sensors: the Shadow Chronicles RPG deals with the Regess' Invid, and the only remaining canon concerning the war with the Regent is found in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. Even assuming that the Sentinels video is canon (and I do tend to assume that), there's nothing there explicitly about the Regent's mecha having Protoculture sensors: the focus is entirely on the new Inorganics and their weapons and armor. AFAICT, the only places where Protoculture sensors are mentioned in connection with the Regent are the Sentinels novels and the Sentinels comics, both of which are now of questionable veracity.

In short, the removal of the bulk of Sentinels from primary canon status opens up the possibility for the Regent's forces to diverge more from the Regess' forces than they did in the pre-reboot material; and the presence or absence of the Protoculture sensors is a subtle enough difference that it could easily fit into the potentially larger gap.

Quite frankly...with the established canon....I do not think that the Regent's forces would have the Protoculture sensor.

Scott was pretty much suprised that the Regis's forces on Earth had them.....and I think between Lang and the rest of the scientist in the UEEF would have figured it out a lot quicker than a 17 year old hillbilly. Therefore it would have been part of training for recruits and briefings for existing personnel so Scott would have known about it.