Robotech® New Generation™ Sourcebook

[jaymz]

Personally, I've been waiting over a decade for Mechanoids Space, and that was supposedly King Kevin's "baby" way back when....so imagine how long we'll have to wait for something that's not his "baby"

Actually its pretty close to 2 full decades now....

[Raiden]

I realize the fact that they need approval from HG....a fact not lost on myself as I have been lurking these boards for a long time. It's just frustrating sitting back and waiting for a book that will never come. I've been waiting for a lot of books to be released by this company, and seeing it happen with RT again just wears down my patience, regardless of who's doing the stalling.

[ZINO]

For me comes the possibility of start using non-canon material as canon for my ideas and treat the "official" books as non-canon due to the enterprise policy of submission towards HG.
It must exist some legal options to make PB capable of erradicate the HG control publishing the material from fans under another name or something like that...

we need a magic lap for that to happen so so sorry

[Tiree]

Key points of this discussion:
The manuscript has been turned in
Artwork still needs to be done
Kevin still needs to edit and get HG's approval
Pre-Orders are not charged till book ships
Pre-Orders have generally had the price honored (unless drastic page count has been upped)

As for when it will be released, I am going to say June (end of May early June) - right in time for Father's day. But that would mean Kevin would need to edit the book pretty much concurrently with writing Vampire Kingdoms Revised.

[MikeM]

Thanks Tiree.
The money or PB are not the matter,is HG.'Nuff said.

I disagree. HG can't approve anything if nothing is submitted.
Palladium released Macross and Southern Cross relatively quickly, and now HG is going to hold up New Generation? Doubtful.
Yes, HG will delay the book a little while it goes through approvals, but years? I don't think so.
End result is the same though. Robotech fans without a Robotech book.

MikeM

[Tiree]

Thanks Tiree.
The money or PB are not the matter,is HG.'Nuff said.

I disagree. HG can't approve anything if nothing is submitted.
Palladium released Macross and Southern Cross relatively quickly, and now HG is going to hold up New Generation? Doubtful.
Yes, HG will delay the book a little while it goes through approvals, but years? I don't think so.
End result is the same though. Robotech fans without a Robotech book.

MikeM

QFT

Palladium having a manuscript, does not equal a book ready to be published (by their standards). I would think that the Marines Sourcebook would be more in line for publishing, because Marker had published 2 other Robotech Sourcebooks before, and would have had it under his belt.

That said - I am glad they are publishing the New Gen book first, as it always felt odd that they would not finish the series before additional source material.

[Tiree]

If I remember properly Mr.Marker has left the manuscript after completion for the New Gen. sourcebook and then flee from PB for unsalvageable differences between him and PB,after that they need a new manuscript to submit to HG,but HG is retarding the schedule for all the Robotech continuity because they haven't released their films and they cannot risk all the work for their new canon, because if they might think PB is causing some prejudice to them in that term(release books),they have the freedom to brought their franchise to another publishing company without hesitation and with the right on their side.But if they don't do that is because:1-they find that the contract subscribed with PB is great and they are able to stand the critics or 2-no other company wants the dead horse that from years was Robotech and only lives thanks to PB in the late '80s.And a lot of publishers of RPGs know that fact.

Your memory is flawed.

Marker never worked on the New Gen book. He did finish the manuscript for the Marines Sourcebook. After finishing that sourcebook he was let go due to budgetary concerns at PB Main Offices, with the hopes that it was a temporary lay offand that he would be re-hired in short term

Mr. Marker understandably started to look for work after his layoff (like many who have been). During this time PB had submitted the manuscript to HG, who for some reason decided not to accept it, even though Kevin was working on it from September till February (You can do a search in the murmor forum on the keyword Marines) (and he thought it would be out the door within a few months per the press release and assigning artwork.)

[Tiree]

Thanks for the correction.I0ll admit I was wrong,sorry for any inconvenience originated due that.

No sweat. I feel that the big problem with the Marine's book is with Kevin and not with the manuscript. There were a lot of bad feelings due to the lay off, and how people handled it. Also - there is a monetary issue. If the manuscript has one person's name on it, they get a bit more money than if it has two people's name on it.

[ZINO]

JUST GET THE BOOK OUT PLZ!!!!!!!!!! sorry couldn't help it

[jaymz]

Anybody knows if the Tokugawa and the Shimakaze class ships would appear on this book?.Thank you.

In the enw Gen Book? Not likely as niether have anything to do witht he New Gen era. IF we are lucky enough for them to actually do a Space Ship book (as they said they had plans to do) then and only then will we see said ships or any other ships outside of whatis already in the books that are out.

[Tiree]

I would doubt that either will appear. There should be a Shadow Chronicles Sourcebook that was mentioned in TSC.

[rtsurfer]

Isn't the Shimakaze class the ship that Vince had in SC? Since SC overlaps with TNG, couldn't it be in a NG book?

[Seto Kaiba]

Isn't the Shimakaze class the ship that Vince had in SC?

Yes.

[jaymz]

If they didn't put it in SC then they are unlikely to put it in NG since the Shimikaze isn't used until SC

[Tiree]

They didn't put it in the Shadow Chronicles book because they was not enough information from the Movie to speculate on it. This was mainly due to HG not wanting to have their hands tied down by Palladium's fiction, the same can be said for the Super Alpha and Beta. Thus it needs to fall into a Future Supplement for the Shadow Chronicles Era.

[Seto Kaiba]

If they didn't put it in SC then they are unlikely to put it in NG since the Shimikaze isn't used until SC

Strictly speaking, the Shimakaze-class ships were developed and introduced before the Shadow Chronicles story arc began. I suppose if you really want to split hairs about it, they technically belong to the Sentinels era, since their first appearance and their first operational deployment was in Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, a limited edition comic miniseries that recapped the cliffhanger of, and then concluded, the story left unfinished by the cancellation of the Sentinels comics by Jason and John Waltrip. The events of that series start in 2043, around the time that Ariel is initially discovered by Scott and company, so if they really wanted to they could easily rationalize sticking that into the New Generation book.

They didn't put it in the Shadow Chronicles book because they was not enough information from the Movie to speculate on it. This was mainly due to HG not wanting to have their hands tied down by Palladium's fiction

Untrue, I'm afraid... the The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles book came out almost a full year before the Shadow Chronicles RPG core book did, and it provided the stats for the Shimakaze-class for all the world to see. AoTSC offers a brief history for the class, as well as providing its dimensions and enumerating its armaments and its fighter compliment. Oh yes, there was definitely enough information to produce game stats for the Shimakaze-class while the core book was still a work-in-progress. Why writers at Palladium chose not to is anybody's guess, but I'd suspect a lot of the inaccuracies that cropped up in the RTSC core book are intentional omissions so sales of the RPG wouldn't be hurting sales of the RTSC art book.

[jaymz]

Seto - I knwo when they were used and that i tpredated the final assault on Earth. My meaning was they didn;t send them too Earth until SC occurred. Mind like I said if htey were going to publish the stats they SHOLD have done it in SC as it does fit inteh NG storyline since there are none present at Earth until SC. They didn't publish teh SDF-4 (AGAIN) in SC and I doubt they are going to do it in NG either. NG is essentially a completely planet bound setting. Why woudl you publish stats for a spaceships whne you can't get into space and even if you did there is essentially nothign up there to do until the final assault on Earth takes place?

[Tiree]

Seto could be correct. There are possible different idea's as to why things weren't done initially. Like all the starships were not listed in the Manga Edition of TSC, because they were planning on doing a Compilation Starship Book.

It wasn't till Fan Outcry and they made a deluxe version that any starships appeared in TSC. From there PB learned from its mistake and added starships to the game. I wouldn't be surprised if some reprints from the Deluxe book makes it into the NG book. In fact I do hope so, thus causing more people to complain about not wanting Manga!

But who knows they may put in the SDF-4 in it, and it would fit well. The Shimi - I just don't see it. A TSC Sourcebook though, would be perfect, and it can include the Arkangel also

[jaymz]

Seto could be correct. There are possible different idea's as to why things weren't done initially. Like all the starships were not listed in the Manga Edition of TSC, because they were planning on doing a Compilation Starship Book.

It wasn't till Fan Outcry and they made a deluxe version that any starships appeared in TSC. From there PB learned from its mistake and added starships to the game. I wouldn't be surprised if some reprints from the Deluxe book makes it into the NG book. In fact I do hope so, thus causing more people to complain about not wanting Manga!

But who knows they may put in the SDF-4 in it, and it would fit well. The Shimi - I just don't see it. A TSC Sourcebook though, would be perfect, and it can include the Arkangel also

Considering the storythat is TSC, the Shimkaze SHOULD have been in the book. IT is where you are for a large portion of the story.

EDIT - Not to mention we end with them leaving on the Ark Angel to look for the SDF-3. I am willing to bet most peopel would like to play thatout bu t can't as they don't evne have the ships that they are going to be on. It was stupid when they did it and the deluxe edition wasn't so deluxe. I could care less about MDC forklifts truth be told.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto - I know when they were used and that i predated the final assault on Earth. My meaning was they didn't send them too Earth until SC occurred. [...] NG is essentially a completely planet bound setting.

Yes, I know what you meant... I was just illustrating that the events on Earth are far from being the only matters of interest in 2043-2044, and that they could easily concoct a basic rationale for including the Shimakaze-class ships if they wanted to.

Why would you publish stats for a spaceships when you can't get into space and even if you did there is essentially nothing up there to do until the final assault on Earth takes place?

Shh... you'll make the Invid Regent cry, he won't like being told that the final stage of his fight with the UEEF was nothing important or interesting. Have a little compassion for the poorly written, extremely hammy space lobsters!

Seto could be correct. There are possible different idea's as to why things weren't done initially. Like all the starships were not listed in the Manga Edition of TSC, because they were planning on doing a Compilation Starship Book.

To be frank, that the omissions from the RTSC RPG core book were intended to avoid hurting sales of the The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles art book is far and away the most plausible explanation for it. Tommy's already blocked an entire book from publication to protect AoTSC (the material now known as the Imai Files), so this doesn't seem like much of a stretch. Really, can you think of any other sane reason to exclude starships from an RPG based on a movie set EXCLUSIVELY in space?

[jaymz]

Sorry I meant nothing in space in earthspace so no real reason to have the shimikaze in the NG book other than to make people buy two books to play one game....[sarcasm] PB has NEVER done THAT before though...... [/sarcasm]

[jaymz]

Also,were are the Tokugawa ships?.Those were built prior to the First Reclamation Fleet and they didn't appear on the Deluxe ed.
I believe that they trust a lot,PB,that they were able to manage and release an spaceships compendium relatively fast and they have a lot of another releases and work to do between books release from their different games.

Robotech: Space Ship Sourcebook. Release date.........uh.......let's say the third tuesday of the 2nd week of october 20whenever for now. Tentatively speaking of course.

[ESalter]

I'd suspect a lot of the inaccuracies that cropped up in the RTSC core book are intentional omissions so sales of the RPG wouldn't be hurting sales of the RTSC art book.

"Inaccuracies" and "omissions" are very different. "Inaccuracies" would mean that Harmony Gold consciously created misinformation, and gave it to Palladium in the expectation that buyers would notice, and so purchase AotSC in hopes of getting the correct data. If HG was really worried about cannibalization, "omissions" would be a more plausible strategy.

Tommy's already blocked an entire book from publication to protect AoTSC (the material now known as the Imai Files)....

Interesting; I hadn't heard that. Where did that information come from?

Really, can you think of any other sane reason to exclude starships from an RPG based on a movie set EXCLUSIVELY in space?

Well, in game terms, I'm not sure starship stats generally have a lot of use.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Also,were are the Tokugawa ships?

They should have been in The Southern Cross sourcebook considering there are 3 seen (2 from space, 1 sitting on the ground).

[Seto Kaiba]

"Inaccuracies" and "omissions" are very different.

Yeah, and you'll find the book contains a fair amount of both, if you compare its contents against what's in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. (and, to a lesser extent, against what's in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles.)

Tommy's already blocked an entire book from publication to protect AoTSC (the material now known as the Imai Files)....

Interesting; I hadn't heard that. Where did that information come from?

I first heard about it from Roger Harkavy, the author of the Imai Files.

Really, can you think of any other sane reason to exclude starships from an RPG based on a movie set EXCLUSIVELY in space?

Well, in game terms, I'm not sure starship stats generally have a lot of use.

Really? I can't recall a time I've run a Macross game and not had ship-to-ship combat and Valkyries making attacks on enemy ships with reaction weapons at some point. Maybe you could get around it if you assume that the events on Earth's surface are the only point of interest in the New Generation, but as I've already illustrated, that's hardly the case.

[Tiree]

Tommy's already blocked an entire book from publication to protect AoTSC (the material now known as the Imai Files)....

Interesting; I hadn't heard that. Where did that information come from?

I first heard about it from Roger Harkavy, the author of the Imai Files.

A few years back I was talking with Jason Marker over getting the AFC-R-02 Ground Attack Legioss into the book. Apparently a piece of the artwork for that had made it into a blog from a Magazine. It was an article written by Mr. Harkavy. Jason had informed me that years before PB had let go of the license someone had tried to sell PB and HG the information separately, but neither wanted to pay how much he was asking for.

Now I am pretty sure Jason did purchase a copy of the Magazine. So I am not sure if Mr. Harkavy had a big book that he was trying to shill or not. But he has been shilling this information since 2007, probably from 2005 and well before.

[ESalter]

"Inaccuracies" and "omissions" are very different.

Yeah, and you'll find the book contains a fair amount of both, if you compare its contents against what's in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. (and, to a lesser extent, against what's in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles.)

So, HG chose certain information to block from Palladium, decided this still wasn't sufficient, and created deliberate mistakes; and a major part of the evidence for this is that a Palladium book contains mistakes and omissions. Is that a correct summation of your argument?

Tommy's already blocked an entire book from publication to protect AoTSC (the material now known as the Imai Files)....

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: Roger Harkavy had found a third party to publish the Imai flies, but Tommy Yune blocked the deal?

Really, can you think of any other sane reason to exclude starships from an RPG based on a movie set EXCLUSIVELY in space?

Well, in game terms, I'm not sure starship stats generally have a lot of use.

Really? I can't recall a time I've run a Macross game and not had ship-to-ship combat and Valkyries making attacks on enemy ships with reaction weapons at some point. Maybe you could get around it if you assume that the events on Earth's surface are the only point of interest in the New Generation, but as I've already illustrated, that's hardly the case.

You're right, of course, though I'd still say full starship stats are a lot less use than other things; I'd guess that only the weapon and damage numbers get much use, in anti-starship combat, and then only those of the "enemy" ships. Players probably aren't going to interact with "friendly" ships in a way that requires detailed stats. Seeing how the core book is as much about "The New Generation" as it is about The Shadow Chronicles, the Shimakazes would be near the top of my list of things to omit for space.

[Seto Kaiba]

So, HG chose certain information to block from Palladium, decided this still wasn't sufficient, and created deliberate mistakes; and a major part of the evidence for this is that a Palladium book contains mistakes and omissions. Is that a correct summation of your argument?

No, that's nowhere near accurate and I suspect you know full well it isn't. To summarize my statements accurately, it's entirely likely that Harmony Gold said that using information from certain publications was out-of-bounds, and either fobbed them off with an incomplete "fact file" or gave them nothing at all. The only other feasible explanation for why Palladium would print incomplete and inaccurate info when one of the stated goals of this "2nd Ed." of the RPG is to be as accurate as possible with the background info is editorial malice, and I'm having a hard time picturing a struggling company screwing its customers over for the sheer pleasure of it.

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: Roger Harkavy had found a third party to publish the Imai flies, but Tommy Yune blocked the deal?

No, Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book. It was taken under consideration by the Robotech "creative" staff, but was eventually shot down by Tommy Yune, who was pushing for his own art book at the time (AoTSC).

You're right, of course, though I'd still say full starship stats are a lot less use than other things; I'd guess that only the weapon and damage numbers get much use, in anti-starship combat, and then only those of the "enemy" ships. Players probably aren't going to interact with "friendly" ships in a way that requires detailed stats.

Dunno why, but when you said this my knee-jerk response was to suggest that maybe you might be "doing it wrong". I mean, I know that after the Macross Saga, starship combat is essentially a waste of time in the Robotech universe. Either you're up against one of the Robotech Masters motherships with its nigh-invincible shields or an Invid transport with no defensive capabilities to speak of, and that hardly makes for scintillating combat. Mind you, that's not helped by having all the post-2014 Earth Forces ships be ugly boxes with a cluster of rockets on the back, so I guess it's kind of understandable that starship combat isn't that interesting an option in Robotech...

All the same, the events taking place on or around Earth in the animated series are not the only points of interest in the official, canon Robotech universe. There are other things going on in that period, like a protracted interstellar conflict with the Invid Regent, in which starship combat comes up reasonably often. Since that conflict played a pivotal role in the pre-story setting of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and the Shimakaze-class played a fairly significant role in that and the story of RTSC itself, you'd think covering it in the books would just be common sense. I mean, you wouldn't leave the SDF-1 out of the Macross Saga sourcebook... it's the setting for most of the story, and the same ought to apply to the Shimakaze-class and the Icarus in particular.

[Tiree]

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: Roger Harkavy had found a third party to publish the Imai flies, but Tommy Yune blocked the deal?

No, Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book. It was taken under consideration by the Robotech "creative" staff, but was eventually shot down by Tommy Yune, who was pushing for his own art book at the time (AoTSC).

So what you are saying is: There is no secret cabal that stopped Roger Harkavy from selling the information he found. Just that nobody was willing to purchase it. In fact, he was able to sell some of the information to Super7 Magazine which did get published, not all of the artwork he did find.

All the same, the events taking place on or around Earth in the animated series are not the only points of interest in the official, canon Robotech universe. There are other things going on in that period, like a protracted interstellar conflict with the Invid Regent, in which starship combat comes up reasonably often. Since that conflict played a pivotal role in the pre-story setting of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and the Shimakaze-class played a fairly significant role in that and the story of RTSC itself, you'd think covering it in the books would just be common sense. I mean, you wouldn't leave the SDF-1 out of the Macross Saga sourcebook... it's the setting for most of the story, and the same ought to apply to the Shimakaze-class and the Icarus in particular.

Actually it makes perfect sense not to provide information on Starships when you are planning on doing a Starship book. It's was one of the things planned from the get go. And with that, it was also planned that they would only produce 'Manga' sized books, thus there wouldn't be space for deckplans and great line art of starships. Not to mention the fact that you add in, the major key elements of the Shadow Chronicle are missing (Super Shadow Alpha and Beta) and the need for better detail on the Haydonites. Leaving it out provides additional material for the follow up sourcebook.

I don't see any malice on either side's part. I just see some very bitter speculation.

[jaymz]

They not likely to do a starship book at this rate.

I still don't understand why Palladium doesn't do like WotC does and put out online official material. It would be easier to get individual pieces approved than wait for a book. They have the Marin book stuff. Wayne has proven, at least to me, to be a worthy editor in his work with the Rifter. Let him handle some of this stuff.......sadly I knw thei will NEVER happen for opinionated reasons I will not state here as it may get me warned.

[Seto Kaiba]

So what you are saying is: There is no secret cabal that stopped Roger Harkavy from selling the information he found. Just that nobody was willing to purchase it. In fact, he was able to sell some of the information to Super7 Magazine which did get published, not all of the artwork he did find.

Close... what I'm saying is that there was nobody stopping Roger Harkavy from peddling the art he'd uncovered, just that he pitched it to Harmony Gold with the help of a Harmony Gold staffer, and that it was shot down because Tommy didn't want anything getting in the way of his Shadow Chronicles art book. I dunno why you're all so keen to make this sound like the result of some kind of conspiracy or secret cabal, when it's a simple example of how Tommy didn't hesitate to kneecap another publication for the sake of his baby, AotSC.

Actually it makes perfect sense not to provide information on Starships when you are planning on doing a Starship book.

Two problems with this logic... the first and most obvious being that the starships book is apparently dead in the water thanks to the departure of its author. The second, and more glaring, is that the intention of doing a "Starships" book never stopped them in the past. I could point out the Macross II: Lovers Again RPG, which not only had a three-volume run of starship books, but still included information on several classes of ship in the game's core book and source book. You don't need huge line art or deck plans to provide just the game stats for using a ship, as demonstrated in the Macross II games, so that line of reasoning doesn't really hold water.

Not to mention the fact that you add in, the major key elements of the Shadow Chronicle are missing (Super Shadow Alpha and Beta) and the need for better detail on the Haydonites. Leaving it out provides additional material for the follow up sourcebook.

Since the Shimakaze-class has already been broomed as of the end of the RTSC movie, NOT including it serves no useful function because it's unlikely to appear again now that the one example of its class has been compressed into a singularity. That reasoning may apply to the "Super Shadow Fighter", and maybe the Haydonites, but definitely not the ships that we're talking about here.

[ESalter]

I'd suspect a lot of the inaccuracies that cropped up in the RTSC core book are intentional omissions so sales of the RPG wouldn't be hurting sales of the RTSC art book.

[my emphasis]

"Inaccuracies" and "omissions" are very different. "Inaccuracies" would mean that Harmony Gold consciously created misinformation....

Yeah, and you'll find the book contains a fair amount of both....

[my emphasis]

So, HG chose certain information to block from Palladium, decided this still wasn't sufficient, and created deliberate mistakes; and a major part of the evidence for this is that a Palladium book contains mistakes and omissions. Is that a correct summation of your argument?

No, that's nowhere near accurate and I suspect you know full well it isn't.

!

To summarize my statements accurately, it's entirely likely that Harmony Gold said that using information from certain publications was out-of-bounds, and either fobbed them off with an incomplete "fact file" or gave them nothing at all. The only other feasible explanation for why Palladium would print incomplete and inaccurate info when one of the stated goals of this "2nd Ed." of the RPG is to be as accurate as possible with the background info is editorial malice, and I'm having a hard time picturing a struggling company screwing its customers over for the sheer pleasure of it.

The first edition also had mistakes and omissions. IINM other Palladium publications have had these problems as well; it's not unique to Robotech 2E. As for "the stated goals of the second edition," it wouldn't be the first time a business had made a promise it couldn't keep.

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: Roger Harkavy had found a third party to publish the Imai flies, but Tommy Yune blocked the deal?

No, Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book. It was taken under consideration by the Robotech "creative" staff, but was eventually shot down by Tommy Yune, who was pushing for his own art book at the time (AoTSC).

There is a big difference between refusing to make the mecha of the Imai files official Robotech designs and "blocking" the files' publication. Apparently, no one else wanted to publish them either.
And why did you put the "creative" in "creative staff" in quotes?

You're right, of course, though I'd still say full starship stats are a lot less use than other things; I'd guess that only the weapon and damage numbers get much use, in anti-starship combat, and then only those of the "enemy" ships. Players probably aren't going to interact with "friendly" ships in a way that requires detailed stats.

Dunno why, but when you said this my knee-jerk response was to suggest that maybe you might be "doing it wrong".

I'm no GM; my knowledge is purely theoretical.

I mean, I know that after the Macross Saga, starship combat is essentially a waste of time in the Robotech universe.

So you believe that not including the Shimakaze was a good idea?

Either you're up against one of the Robotech Masters motherships with its nigh-invincible shields or an Invid transport with no defensive capabilities to speak of, and that hardly makes for scintillating combat.

IIRC, the animation includes dramatic mecha battles against both those ships.

Mind you, that's not helped by having all the post-2014 Earth Forces ships be ugly boxes with a cluster of rockets on the back...

I find some of the late-model UEDF ships quite attractive; the Garfish, for instance: its streamlined shape and details, in contrast with the blocky midship modules; the interest and realism of its details; its horizontal seam, a visual reference to the Zentraedi ships it is presumably based on.
I admit, it does have a cluster of rockets in the back.

so I guess it's kind of understandable that starship combat isn't that interesting an option in Robotech...

I'm not sure that the aesthetic quality of the spaceships in a tabletop RPG is a large part of the players' enjoyment.

All the same, the events taking place on or around Earth in the animated series are not the only points of interest in the official, canon Robotech universe. There are other things going on in that period, like a protracted interstellar conflict with the Invid Regent, in which starship combat comes up reasonably often. Since that conflict played a pivotal role in the pre-story setting of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and the Shimakaze-class played a fairly significant role in that and the story of RTSC itself, you'd think covering it in the books would just be common sense.

Again, the SC book is more of an NG/SC book; as such, the emphasis should be on the most common spaceships of RW3, regardless of how prominent they were in the movie.

I mean, you wouldn't leave the SDF-1 out of the Macross Saga sourcebook....

Actually, I would: while the SDF-1's travels, and life on-board, are important information, I see relatively little use for combat statistics.

[W]hat I'm saying is that there was nobody stopping Roger Harkavy from peddling the art he'd uncovered, just that he pitched it to Harmony Gold with the help of a Harmony Gold staffer, and that it was shot down because Tommy didn't want anything getting in the way of his Shadow Chronicles art book. I dunno why you're all so keen to make this sound like the result of some kind of conspiracy or secret cabal, when it's a simple example of how Tommy didn't hesitate to kneecap another publication for the sake of his baby, AotSC.

[my emphasis]

Do you have evidence of this? (Not the event itself, but HG's reasons.)

[Tiree]

Close... what I'm saying is that there was nobody stopping Roger Harkavy from peddling the art he'd uncovered, just that he pitched it to Harmony Gold with the help of a Harmony Gold staffer, and that it was shot down because Tommy didn't want anything getting in the way of his Shadow Chronicles art book. I dunno why you're all so keen to make this sound like the result of some kind of conspiracy or secret cabal, when it's a simple example of how Tommy didn't hesitate to kneecap another publication for the sake of his baby, AotSC.

You see it as Kneecapping another publication. I see it more as, HG didn't want to pay Mr. Harkavy for any of his hard work. Or were not willing to do so at the price he wanted. As mentioned before, Mr. Harkavy brought his information to PB when they still had the license. They didn't even want to pay him for the information.

Two problems with this logic... the first and most obvious being that the starships book is apparently dead in the water thanks to the departure of its author. The second, and more glaring, is that the intention of doing a "Starships" book never stopped them in the past. I could point out the Macross II: Lovers Again RPG, which not only had a three-volume run of starship books, but still included information on several classes of ship in the game's core book and source book. You don't need huge line art or deck plans to provide just the game stats for using a ship, as demonstrated in the Macross II games, so that line of reasoning doesn't really hold water.
There is no problem with my logic on this. When the RT:TSC book was laid out, it had full intention on getting a starship book. Mr. Marker was very eager on getting it done, took copious notes and had plans for it. As seen with information provided in Macross and Masters sourcebook. Even though Mr. Marker is no longer with PB, it doesn't mean that PB is not going to be producing this book. It just means it is going to take a lot longer, and probably means that they will be introducing ships in their other products, and repeat them in the Starship book. As mentioned with Macross II - the books were done by DreamPod 9. A group independent of Palladium, but were working under their license.

Since the Shimakaze-class has already been broomed as of the end of the RTSC movie, NOT including it serves no useful function because it's unlikely to appear again now that the one example of its class has been compressed into a singularity. That reasoning may apply to the "Super Shadow Fighter", and maybe the Haydonites, but definitely not the ships that we're talking about here.

Even though the Shimikaze was destroyed, it doesn't mean that there are not other variations of the same vehicle floating out there or are being built. I still feel that this is not a valid argument

[Seto Kaiba]

The first edition also had mistakes and omissions. IINM other Palladium publications have had these problems as well; it's not unique to Robotech 2E. As for "the stated goals of the second edition," it wouldn't be the first time a business had made a promise it couldn't keep.

You are, of course, tactfully omitting the important context that robs your counterargument of much of its meaning. Namely, that many of the mistakes and omissions in the game's 1st Edition were the result of a lack of support and information from Harmony Gold which forced the writers to fall back on home videos and guesswork. Can you see how that could maybe be a different environment than what the 2nd Edition was written in, especially since those new editions are new subjected to a rigorous review process before going to print and they'd just released a big official book about RTSC a little less than a year before?

There is a big difference between refusing to make the mecha of the Imai files official Robotech designs and "blocking" the files' publication. Apparently, no one else wanted to publish them either.

There's also a big difference between "printing the designs in an art book" and "making those designs official Robotech designs". Can you perhaps see the distinction there? I'll give you a free hint, we're talking about the former circumstance, not the latter.

And why did you put the "creative" in "creative staff" in quotes?

Please tell me you're not seriously asking me to explain that.

So you believe that not including the Shimakaze was a good idea?

No, I believe that not including the Shimakaze-class was a BAD idea, because it limits the players to a set of narrative options less than the set of stories told from that time period in the official media. At least in theory, the goal of a licensed RPG like the game in question should be to enable the GMs and players to explore a set of narrative options greater than the set of stories told in the official media.

Do you have evidence of this? (Not the event itself, but HG's reasons.)

What, is hearing about it directly from the author and the people involved at Harmony Gold not good enough for you?

[jaymz]

The only place I read about 5 Shimikaze's being built was at the uRRG. Now it may have stated that in teh art book but I do not have the artbook but it sure as hell ain't at robotech.com. They haven't touched the infopedia there in regards to ships and mecha since they launched the site 10 years ago or so.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I swore they were towing the Shemikazie with them....

[jaymz]

I swore they were towing the Shemikazie with them....

Now that you mention it I thought it was docked to the ark angel myself....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Mind you, that's not helped by having all the post-2014 Earth Forces ships be ugly boxes

Hmm, you must have been watching a different series than I was to classify these ships as ugly boxes...

Destroyer

Battlecruiser

Flagship

[Colonel Wolfe]

Mind you, that's not helped by having all the post-2014 Earth Forces ships be ugly boxes

Hmm, you must have been watching a different series than I was to classify these ships as ugly boxes...

Destroyer

Battlecruiser

Flagship

not to be confused with the Original ugly boxes....
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/armd.htm

[Seto Kaiba]

Tiree,I cannot recall were I read it,but in the times of the Chronicles movie there was built and comissioned at least 5 other Shimakaze ships,but still I cannot remember if it was in rt.com...

's far as I can recall, the Icarus was the only operational example of the Shimakaze-class when Edwards stole it from the UEEF base on Tirol in 2043. The blurb about the ship in AoTSC certainly implies that the class was slated for mass-production, at least before the "shadow technology" fiasco. Whether any were actually completed before the Haydonites rendered them worse than useless remains to be seen. Either way, that's really not enough to justify excluding it from the RPG book when it's the setting for around half the movie's story.

I support the opinion of Seto Kaiba about the fact that the Shimakaze ships left out from the Chronicles core book IS a major mistake from both:HG and Palladium in this case,and for the wellness of the game they must release the Spaceships book

Since I'm quite keen to curb the long-standing Robotech practice of acting as though re-releases are new releases, I'd rather see Palladium finish the Spaceships book and get it out the door in the near future than see a re-release of the existing books. I'd offer to sit down and write the damnable thing myself, but that might make poor Tommy Yune's head explode, since I'm not robotech.com's pet heretic anymore.

Mind you, that's not helped by having all the post-2014 Earth Forces ships be ugly boxes

Hmm, you must have been watching a different series than I was to classify these ships as ugly boxes...

Nah, if the screen captures you've posted here are anything to go by, I'm definitely looking at the same ugly boxes you are... though in light of the second and third captures, I don't mind extending the definition to include boxy blue smudges.

(Incidentally, you do realize that all three of those screen captures appear to be the exact same class of ship, right?)

not to be confused with the Original ugly boxes....
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/armd.htm

Accept no substitutes... stick with the original box hotness.

[ESalter]

The first edition also had mistakes and omissions. IINM other Palladium publications have had these problems as well; it's not unique to Robotech 2E. As for "the stated goals of the second edition," it wouldn't be the first time a business had made a promise it couldn't keep.

You are, of course, tactfully omitting the important context that robs your counterargument of much of its meaning. Namely, that many of the mistakes and omissions in the game's 1st Edition were the result of a lack of support and information from Harmony Gold which forced the writers to fall back on home videos and guesswork.

I've owned several first edition books; their problems cannot simply be blamed on HG. For example, Southern Cross contradicts itself on battloid power plants; that sort of mistake is the fault of the author or editor. And, of course, this is only the first half of my argument.

Can you see how that could maybe be a different environment than what the 2nd Edition was written in, especially since those new editions are new subjected to a rigorous review process before going to print and they'd just released a big official book about RTSC a little less than a year before?

And this is the second: the review process is not that rigorous. See, for example, the problem of different names for the same mecha in the sourcebooks.

There is a big difference between refusing to make the mecha of the Imai files official Robotech designs and "blocking" the files' publication. Apparently, no one else wanted to publish them either.

There's also a big difference between "printing the designs in an art book" and "making those designs official Robotech designs". Can you perhaps see the distinction there? I'll give you a free hint, we're talking about the former circumstance, not the latter.

You said:

Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book.

And why did you put the "creative" in "creative staff" in quotes?

Please tell me you're not seriously asking me to explain that.

I assume it's because you felt like casually insulting people in passing; I brought it up in the hope of eliciting a small amount of shame.

Do you have evidence of this? (Not the event itself, but HG's reasons.)

What, is hearing about it directly from the author and the people involved at Harmony Gold not good enough for you?

I want to be clear on this: Roger Harkavy told you Harmony Gold rejected the Imai files in order to protect the art book from competition? An HG employee told you Harmony Gold rejected the Imai files in order to protect the art book from competition?

[Seto Kaiba]

I've owned several first edition books; their problems cannot simply be blamed on HG. For example, Southern Cross contradicts itself on battloid power plants; that sort of mistake is the fault of the author or editor.

Granted, there are some minor editorial mistakes, but many of the errors in the "1st Edition" books are attributed to inadequate info from Harmony Gold by no less a person than Kevin Siembieda.

You said:

Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book.

Indeed I did, and you still fail to grasp the basic distinction between printing something in an official art book and making something a part of the official Robotech setting. You may want to note that the former does not imply the latter.

I assume it's because you felt like casually insulting people in passing; I brought it up in the hope of eliciting a small amount of shame.

Not even close, and no such luck.

I want to be clear on this: Roger Harkavy told you Harmony Gold rejected the Imai files in order to protect the art book from competition? An HG employee told you Harmony Gold rejected the Imai files in order to protect the art book from competition?

Roger Harkavy first brought the existence of the art book proposal and its eventual rejection by Harmony Gold to my attention, and I sought confirmation from a Harmony Gold employee who confirmed that the project was thrown out by Tommy due to office politics and AoTSC, yes.

[Colonel Wolfe]

(Incidentally, you do realize that all three of those screen captures appear to be the exact same class of ship, right?)

They look like similar hulls, but are different ships, varied lengths and such...

[Tiree]

Tiree,I cannot recall were I read it,but in the times of the Chronicles movie there was built and comissioned at least 5 other Shimakaze ships,but still I cannot remember if it was in rt.com...

's far as I can recall, the Icarus was the only operational example of the Shimakaze-class when Edwards stole it from the UEEF base on Tirol in 2043. The blurb about the ship in AoTSC certainly implies that the class was slated for mass-production, at least before the "shadow technology" fiasco. Whether any were actually completed before the Haydonites rendered them worse than useless remains to be seen. Either way, that's really not enough to justify excluding it from the RPG book when it's the setting for around half the movie's story.

This in itself is a reason not to print the Shimakaze. The only one that was made, was destroyed. The next in the series could be and most likely altered in some way shape or form. Not to mention IIRC didn't the Icarus get retrofitted with Shadow technology and synchro technology? We need to have both sets of stats, and we only know what one version was able to do (and sadly not by much)

I support the opinion of Seto Kaiba about the fact that the Shimakaze ships left out from the Chronicles core book IS a major mistake from both:HG and Palladium in this case,and for the wellness of the game they must release the Spaceships book

Since I'm quite keen to curb the long-standing Robotech practice of acting as though re-releases are new releases, I'd rather see Palladium finish the Spaceships book and get it out the door in the near future than see a re-release of the existing books. I'd offer to sit down and write the damnable thing myself, but that might make poor Tommy Yune's head explode, since I'm not robotech.com's pet heretic anymore.

In a way, I don't support what PB did about starships and the fact they were left out of the book. I do understand their reasoning in doing so. And that the main reason was for space in the book, and wanting to keep it Manga size. I am critical about the RT:TSC book, and have been vocal about it. There are lots of little problems that an editor should have caught. I also believe that RT:TSC is the bastard love child of RT-1st Edition and RT-2nd Edition. It's neither one or the other, and has issues trying to be both. Even with the criticism, it doesn't stop me from identifying that PB made choices that they thought were going to be good, and were looking at books down the road. As mentioned they had planned on releasing a sourcebook from RT:TSC which should have everything you want in it. BUT - with the delays at PB (not at HG), it will be a while before we see it officially in print. And if you don't like it - well, become a writer for PB.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Nah, if the screen captures you've posted here are anything to go by, I'm definitely looking at the same ugly boxes you are... though in light of the second and third captures, I don't mind extending the definition to include boxy blue smudges.

Har, har. I seem to remember that the Northampton-class Frigate from Macross 7/Plus/Frontier bears more than a slight resemblance to those ships from Southern Cross.

(Incidentally, you do realize that all three of those screen captures appear to be the exact same class of ship, right?)

Uh, no. The Destroyer's launch bay is on the underside. The Battlecruiser has launch bays on the sponsons. The Flagship has a hull that is definitely angled differently.

[Seto Kaiba]

This in itself is a reason not to print the Shimakaze. The only one that was made, was destroyed. The next in the series could be and most likely altered in some way shape or form.

Considering this is a Shadow Chronicles RPG we're talking about, that the ship was the backdrop for roughly half of the movie and a major player in even the prequel comics for the movie, including it should've been a no-brainer regardless of its fate at the end of the film.

Not to mention IIRC didn't the Icarus get retrofitted with Shadow technology and synchro technology? We need to have both sets of stats, and we only know what one version was able to do (and sadly not by much)

That seems to be the case, yes... but the only version that was ever used in combat was the post-retrofit version, and that simplifies matters somewhat. Mind you, we do know the armaments of the pre-retrofit version too, and other than that it didn't really change.

[...] if you don't like it - well, become a writer for PB.

Wading in personally to clear up the mess that is Robotech does sound appealing, but as I said before I doubt poor Tommy could cope with having the former robotech.com go-to info guy and token heretic in creative control of a Robotech product. Still, if they ask, sure, I'll happily sit down and finish the spaceships book for them. I'll even use my private library of Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada, and Robotech publications to get it all done right.

Har, har. I seem to remember that the Northampton-class Frigate from Macross 7/Plus/Frontier bears more than a slight resemblance to those ships from Southern Cross.

Except that, y'know, they look absolutely nothing alike. I wouldn't count "is (sometimes) colored a shade of blue" as "more than a slight resemblance".

Uh, no. The Destroyer's launch bay is on the underside. The Battlecruiser has launch bays on the sponsons. The Flagship has a hull that is definitely angled differently.

So, guesswork based on inconsistent production values equals multiple classes of ship? I'm just not seeing it, and apparently Harmony Gold isn't either.

[Sgt Anjay]

Uh, no. The Destroyer's launch bay is on the underside. The Battlecruiser has launch bays on the sponsons. The Flagship has a hull that is definitely angled differently.

So, guesswork based on inconsistent production values equals multiple classes of ship? I'm just not seeing it, and apparently Harmony Gold isn't either.

Uh-huh.

For one, I fail to see what the robotech.com stats on the Tristar prove. Also:
Key Features of ASC ships

The specific features may not always be entirely in synch (then again, real life ships of the same class are often visibly different in major ways), but these major traits demonstrably distinguish the various ship classes. Though why you're so keen on disparaging Tatsunoko and studio Ammonite by implying otherwise is beyond me.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Except that, y'know, they look absolutely nothing alike.

So, guesswork based on inconsistent production values equals multiple classes of ship?

That has to be, without a doubt, the g!ddamn stupidest thing I've ever read. Are you kidding me?

I'm just not seeing it

apparently Harmony Gold isn't either

Right, cause the incomplete Infopedia means anything....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Though why you're so keen on disparaging Tatsunoko and studio Ammonite by implying otherwise is beyond me.

Yea, considering Macross fans rightly decry people like Doug Bendo and Maverick_LSC says stupid stuff like Macross Frontier appeals to pedophiles. But, hey, I forgot, the designers at Studio Ammonite were just slack jawed jackasses and we're inbred morons for liking Southern Cross apparently. I mean cause crapping on fans like us is just what Macross fans love to do and then whine when bozos at Harmony Gold and other douchebag Robotech fans crap on them and on SDF Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] I want to know if there is any way of PB could do the effort to release fan made material from and for Robotech.

I doubt it... if there was, I would expect Harmony Gold to apply the same "You give up any and all rights to your work to us" policy they use for fanart and fan-fiction submissions over on robotech.com. I can't quite see Tommy giving the go-ahead to print a lot of fanon after going to such lengths to shoot down a fair chunk of it.

When someone tries to release a book with official and new artwork I think they must do in a more comprehensive way dedicated to impress the buyer and the fan of that book and that limited artwork for the spaceships [...] is a pity and a major, huge, immense [...] mistake.

Yeah, I agree with you there. If they're going to run with the spaceships book idea, they're really going to need to put in the time necessary to produce something halfway impressive, since not doing so in the core book and sourcebooks has been a pretty big disappointment for fans of the game. As I said before, I'd happily do the job myself, but as you can see in the responses by Sgt Anjay, Rabid Southern Cross Fan, etc., my approach of discarding all of the fanon that's accumulated over the sequel-less decades in favor of the official, verifiable data tends not to go over well with a certain subset of fans.

Unfortunately, only Macross and Mospeada really provide decent-quality line art for starships that'd make for a good showing in the spaceships book. It really would be a good thing to get the spaceships book finished and kicked out the door, to compliment the New Generation book if they don't intend to actually include starships in the sourcebooks themselves.

For one, I fail to see what the robotech.com stats on the Tristar prove.

That none of these alleged other classes of ship are recognized as canon. As if that particular issue wasn't enough of a pain, there's no coverage whatsoever for those ships in the OSM, with little difference in the animation apart from the position of the nozzles on its stern. This, combined with the mechanical inconsistencies that crop up fairly frequently in the Southern Cross series and a noticeable lack of any recognition from the authority figures for Robotech, would seem to indicate that these aren't separate, deliberately different designs for the most part. If you have actual sources to argue for this being the result of a premeditated design decision by Southern Cross's creators and not just a theory cooked up by fans, please don't feel any hesitation in sharing it.

Though why you're so keen on disparaging Tatsunoko and studio Ammonite by implying otherwise is beyond me.

It's not disparaging, it's a simple and honest statement about the series. If you choose to take the truth as offensive, that's your own hangup. It's just a fact of life that the original Southern Cross series had some consistency problems with its mechanical designs. I'd guess that it was a result of not really bothering to sit down and work on the details of the designs, given the lack of detail in official publications and the fact that the writers of the uRRG and Infopedia had to resort to making it up as they went.

apparently Harmony Gold isn't either

Right, cause the incomplete Infopedia means anything....

I realize you don't like it, and believe me when I say I sympathize, but Harmony Gold is the final and ultimate arbiter of what is and is not official and canon in Robotech. They don't (and never have) listed these other alleged classes of ship as official, nor have the creators of Southern Cross... there's really only one conclusion you can reach from that if you intend to follow the canon, that these are variations on the Tristar-class spaceframe, not separate classes in their own right.



EDIT: Had an extra quote tag in there.