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Colt47 wrote:To be fair, he stated a specific ship with a payload of repo-bots from an established source book. On the other hand, if someone is posting a what if topic in the forum it would be in their best interests to list everything this ship has to offer.

Do we really need to continue this? Jabborwacky pretty much listed a check mate scenario with this ship, KC is listing the response if the ships crew decided to be idiots along with the Coalition States (and did an excellent job listing all of the CS vehicles that the organization could muster to fight it if it really came down to the line), and everyone else listed what would most likely occur: the ship just moving out of CS territory.

And on the subject of book rulings: Everyone is going to be ruling certain areas differently to fit with their knowledge, tastes, and interests. If we start riding off into the direction of rulings we are getting into some pretty war torn territory here. I really don't think people deserve to be ripping each others throats out on such a varied and ultimately personal subject.

That is a very reasonable post.

Lenwen wrote:

Steeler49er wrote:
Let the first one detonate just out of range of the enemies guns (18 mile mark) and this will scramble both visual & other sensors types for a few melees, let the next nuke be trialing the first by about 20miles. At High mach speeds of M5+/3600mph+ ((Way over Mach 2 btw since that is as slow as a jet, rockets are much faster, IE: the X-51 hypersonic cruise missile is designed to hit Mach 5)) it could clear that distance in 20 seconds, then in 10 more seconds it would hit the ship! That way it would det at about 10 miles out so that the Full blast radius would blanket the the ship one more time, thus fragging the ships sensors again, only this time far worse.
This would leave the ship Blind and open to other hypersonic missle (nuke or otherwise) attacks.

A simple and Great tactic that can be pulled with low yeild nukes.

That would be a great tactic ..

If not for the 44 Spit Fire Attack ships .. who can literally just reach a ceiling higher then that of anything in the CS military and park themselves up there for even FURTHER .. radar tracking ability .. and up to the second intel on what the CS is sending in.

Sure the plan you just mentioned would *possibly* enable other nukes to get threw .. but if there were at least 4 Spit Fire's up doing what I said .. it would not trick the Naruni .. in the least ..

Basically they would be able to do exactly what sat's do now .. only at a higher/faster range ..

Thats not even taking into account the Spit Fire's themselves .. launching their missiles at the nukes and taking them out either ... And let's not forget .. Naruni has the tech to make every single missile they launch a smart missile enabled enough to track and hunt their targets ..

No way does the CS land more then a couple of their nukes against the ship .. which in effect will not be enough to do anything to the ship.

All good points and I already considered this. However, given that the NE pilots wouldn't have reason to expect pre-det of the missles at such an earily stage in their flight, this would catch them off guard reguardless. The shock wave, Light pulse, and EMP would Not harm them greatly but, it Would be enough of a surprise so as to by the afformentioned time (They would not have seen it coming and they're reactions would be that of a "Logic Shock"). Remember that the sinareo I have jst put forth is Not a widely used tactic with nukes.

THAT SAID, My comment was a mere "What if the GM is dumb!"... That or what if you use this trick against Less battle hardened opponents who'd not be likely to expect it. Truth is battle savi intelligent enemies in My games are generally Very smart and my players Seldom can pull off this level of tactic w/o being discoverd. In games I run the High-Tech is more logically hightech and 'advanced races' like NE and the CS are more likely than not to have tech that BLOWS AWAY anything of today.


Ever notice how Sci-fi TV shows, RPG's, Novels, and other media usually have (So Called) advanced-tech that goes out of date in jst a decade or so? Yeah well, after having That happen in many of my games where the CS of Palladiums Rifts, or the Net runners of R. Talsorian's 'Cyberpunk' are running around with "Mega-Advanced 84meg processors" I decided to "Just assume the tech will be Freaky Times higher" and I put the tech levels for even Low grade tech into the 'petabite' levels.
NE uses commnications tech that is Far better than the old stand by of 'Tachions', rather they use tech more like Ursula K. Le Guin's "Ansible" tech, only greater.

So Advanced tech is generally Much more realistcally 'Super' in my games and therefore NO my trick would have never worked against me IF 'I' were the ST and my players tried it. Still, I put it ot there for the Rest of you guys to use.

Lenwen wrote:Fact of the matter KC, everything I've stated I never have "changed" it out .. to suit what ever I did not like. It is not my fault if people do not have the book itself to verify that which I know to be factual cargo of the ship in question.

I listed the changes you made. You can say I'm wrong, but anybody reading the thread will know I'm right.

Is it your fault that people don't have the book?
Nope.
But it's your fault that you didn't post more of the stats sooner, because not everybody is going to have the book in question.

And the point wasn't as much about what's IN the ship as it is about the scenario you put the ship in, then changed, then changed, then changed again.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
First it was "a spaceship crashes in CS territory"

Actually no it has always been a Commodity class Naruni ship with a specific cargo load .. Hence the heading of the actual thread .. (might wanna check that out ..)

WOW.
A Commodity Class Naruni ship is a spaceship.
I didn't restate the type of ship in the recap, because we all already know what it was.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then it was "oh, and even though this ship crashed into the Earth, for some unknown reason, none of the external guns are damaged, none of the passengers or cargo are damaged, and in fact the ship works perfectly, except for some reason it can't leave orbit."

There are in fact crashes were automobiles work even after the crash itself, tho not at top speeds .. to which is how I had thought it would be taken .. my humble apologies .. if I did not spell this out well enough for you to put 2 and 2 together ..

There are automobiles that work after the crash.
There are NOT automobiles that are completely undamaged except for speed after crashing into a planet from space.
I don't recall if Palladium ever came up with any rules for crashing a large spaceship into a planet, but let's spitball a bit...

According to Colt's post earlier, the spaceship in question weighs about 2 billion pounds.
According to CB1, p47, a thrown heavy object (using gravity manipulation to allow the throw) inflicts about 4d6 MD per 1000 lbs.
If the spaceship were to be picked up and thrown at a target, the target would take about 8,000,000d6 MD damage.
Say the spaceship itself would take half that, about 4,000,000d6 MD.
Say it rolls for impact, and takes half of that damage, for only 2,000,000d6 MD damage.
Then, for the heck of it, let's say that somehow crashing a spaceship into a planet inflicts less damage to the ship than chucking it at somebody, so we'll divide that damage by 100.
The ship would still take 20,000d6 MD, for an average of 70,000 MD.

Or we can go with the falling damage rules for megadamage creatures as per Xiticic Kingdoms.
If an MDC creature fell from the Thermosphere to the Earth's surface, it would take (according to the rules) about 26,000 MD.
Adjusted for the weight of the ship, it should probably come out to more like 10 million or so MD.
Roll for half damage: 5 million MD.
Divide by 100, again for no particular reason except the benefit of the spaceship, and you end up with 50,000 MD.

OR, if you want to go the most official route, you can go with the rules on p. 365 of RUE for "surviving an aircraft crash-landing."
A successful roll under the Piloting skill number means the pilot manages to make a "good" crash-landing. Meaning the vehicle is reduced to scrap metal, but crashes in such a way that the pilot, crew and passengers walk away from it alive.
Alive, assuming that they are either inside a reinforced pilot's compartment, or that they survive the 1d4x10 MD that every person and piece of cargo will take if they're outside the pilot's compartment.

Killer Cyborg wrote: Then, "Oh, and they have dozens of spaceships escorting them."

Actually to the point they are not "escorting" anything .. the fact of the matter is they are part of the actual compliment of the ships "additional vehicles" .. ergo they are always present no matter which type of cargo the ship itself is carrying .. kapeesh ?

And therefore should have been mentioned in the first place.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then, "Oh, and some of these spaceships are flying way up high, using their super-sensors that I won't detail to know everything that the CS is doing."

Are you telling me that a starship figher is not going to be able to fly up way high .. to use thier super-sensors in an attempt at helping to defend the mothership?

I can't really say, because you've never posted any of the stats of these ships or their sensor capabilities.
But that's not the point; the point is that you never mentioned anything about them DOING that when you were setting up your scenario, not until you figured that it would negate some reaction that the CS might have.
You only trotted it out when the guys you apparently favor were in danger.

Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Book, page number, and exact quote that states this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And NOW, it's "But you're not taking into account that the repo-bots got unloaded onto the ground and are all running around there shooting missiles out of the sky!"

Which would be faster and lets be real about this question ..

1) - Chi-town co-ordinate a multi-warship multi-theater launching of missiles from hundreds of miles away .. with complete air support from Fighters .. along with everything else you stated .. Oh .. and yea .. all that AFTER .. all the time it took the CS to gather its intel on the ship .. get it back to High command .. have them discuss it all and their appropriate countermeasures .. then launch said attack ..
I think you and I are smart enough to know which one would be a faster operation .. KC ..

It's not a matter of speed, it's a matter of you never saying anything about what the repobots were doing, not until you saw it as negating something that the CS was doing.
If you had said originally, "And as soon as the ship is able to take off again, it does so, leaving behind the repo bots as guards against coalition intervention" or something, then that'd be cool.
But you didn't; you changed the setup as soon as you believed that it would benefit the Naruni ship.

Killer Cyborg wrote: Come up with a story, say whatever the hell it IS, and stick with it.

I have .. 1 Commodaty ship .. 99,400 repo-bots .. and other "standard" cargo .. in CS territory .. Tell me again .. how did I change it in any way shape or form ? [/quote]

Already have told you.
But I'll give you a few more questions that you can use to flesh out the scenario, stuff that we'll need to know up front so you can't change things once again:
1. Why was the Naruni Ship near Rifts Earth?
2. How did it get there?
3. Why did it crash?
4. What was their mission?
5. Why wouldn't they just leave CS territory as soon as they could?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
But yeah, okay. The army of repobots is all on the ground tearing up the place.

Actually not tearing up the place .. as I said .. in a defensive posture ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now find me the rule that says that somebody other than the target can shoot down an incoming missile.

Really ? Are you telling me that No one other then the intended target .. can shoot down missiles ?

Scuse me ..

So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

Killer Cyborg wrote:(And while you're at it, try to figure out how those guys would fare against a few hundred thousand SAMAS that are backed by hundreds of Enforces, Death's Head Transports, Tanks, Etc. etc. etc.)

Actually they would do quite well .. Face the facts .. the Samas have to get within their own weapon systems range to do any damage to the Repo-Bots .. which lets face the facts .. puts them in the range of the Repo-Bots built in unlimited ammo supplied weapon systems as well ..

You mentioned the Repo-Bots' range as 2,000'.
A CR-1 railgun has a range of 4,000'.
So either you were wrong then, or you're wrong now.

But either way, I'm assuming that they all get into range of each other, and everybody gets shot up. A lot of SAMs and other CS stuff dies, and so do the bots.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:The 44 Spit Fire Attack ships (Each nearly twice as fast as any missile in CS military mind you) +1 attack due to being piloted by Repo bots (16 missiles each, 4d6x100, 150ft blast radius, 1,400 miles) Each is more then capable of sinking any ship you mentioned with just their 16 missiles ..

You're only basing that on fantasy.

Sorry KC .. this is not made up .. You used Naval ships to launch all your missiles .. which puts their top speed at exactly what the book states they are .. Mach 3 at most .. the Spitfire can achieve a top speed of mach 5 in an atmosphere .. (nearly twice as fast.. as I've said)

Each spitfire has a payload of 16 LRM's .. each with 1400 mile range on them .. each is +5 strike, +4 dodge and have 2 actions per melee round .. each does 4d6x100 MD ..

Those are hard core book facts of the Spitfire's missile payload. As can be seen on pg 65 of Fleets of the 3 Galaxies.

And are in fact not fantasy .. (as it were LMAO !! )

Your fantasy was that the CS ships would all get killed, not what the spaceship's capabilities.
These ships have batteries of missiles, and railguns, and other weapons, designed to shoot down incoming missiles.
And if you think that the spaceships can shoot down missiles that aren't aimed at them, the same should apply to CS aircraft and ships shooting down missiles aimed at the larger boats.
Those with medium range missiles could take out incoming missiles while they were still 80 miles away, and the closer your boys got before launching, the more stuff would be shooting them down.

Killer Cyborg wrote:"Oh, and all the tanks are defending the ship somehow.

In known hostile territory .. you think the Naruni would not know how to deploy their own military hardware .. to defend their own assets ?

I think that the Naruni wouldn't have crashed, that their ship wouldn't have survived the crash, they wouldn't have stuck around in CS territory, and if they had, wouldn't necessarily have left all their stuff sitting on the ground to be attacked while they hovered overhead or whatever.

The point wasn't that the tanks weren't capable of being deployed, the point was that you're once again adding new stuff to the scenario. You only mention the tanks being deployed when it suits you.
If you care to flesh out your scenario exactly, detailing what the Naruni ship and cargo/crew does, then it would save us all a lot of back and forth over the details.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I mentioned some of the big stuff. And I went with conservative estimates. The CS might have thousands of some of those jets, and they could have thousands of ground-based LRM launchers.

And they might not have enough missiles to put to use against the ship an its assets after going threw a war that lasted how long .. with near 24/7 missile barrages .. no my friend .. I very highly doubt the CS has the missiles enmass .. to do what your saying .. especially after such a huge long war .. (tho admittedly .. I very well may be wrong.)

You are wrong. The stats are given out in the books with enough missiles, and the CS doesn't drive around with unloaded missile launchers; there are more than enough to go around.
Find me something in the books that says the CS is facing a large missile shortage, and you might have something.
Until the, you don't.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Not to mention .. the destroyer's .. submarines .. and aircraft carriers .. will be launching their missiles from minimum of hundreds of miles away .. and with the tracking systems of these "Star ships" .. they will have picked them up the second they were launched .. which means even GREATER .. chance at launching their own missiles in reaction to defend against those missiles ..

Since I gave the spacehip a 100% hit and kill ratio with their missiles, I'm not sure how you think that they could do any better.

As I was not aware I had to do the connection for you .. each Spitfire ship could track the missiles back to where they came from an each Spitfire has the military hardware to sink each and every ship that launched the missiles .. relatively easy ..

I already covered this; the spaceships could try to attack the ships, but I've seen nothing to indicate that their attacks would succeed. Their missiles can be shot down too.

Of course, if you want your ships to go after the boats, then they can't actually shoot down incoming missiles themselves (actually, as pointed out, they couldn't anyway- I just let them to be nice), and there's that many more missiles hitting the main ship.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Book, page number, and exact quote that states this.

Allow me time to refind it but I honestly believe that it is in Rifts Merc's .. but again to clerify allow me to refind it .. it is canon of that much I am 100% certain.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If the spaceship were to be picked up and thrown at a target, the target would take about 8,000,000d6 MD damage

Then there can be no denying that if it crashed into any CS City Fortress .. that sity fortress (no matter which it is) is utterly and completely destroyed.

Thanks for the info KC !!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now find me the rule that says that somebody other than the target can shoot down an incoming missile.

Really ? Are you telling me that No one other then the intended target .. can shoot down missiles ?

Scuse me ..

So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

Fact of the matter as has been pointed out .. it is in fact canon that other people can shoot down missiles if prepped for such actions (Tolkeen series) clearly show that with FQ's GB's doing that very thing ..

Ergo .. no "Rule" need apply as its been witnessed in action .. canon action to be exact. Hope this helps.

Killer Cyborg wrote:You mentioned the Repo-Bots' range as 2,000'.
A CR-1 railgun has a range of 4,000'.
So either you were wrong then, or you're wrong now.

Still going to have to get closer then that to accurately hit the Repo-Bots .. hate it for you if you think you can just hover at 4,000ft .. and pick them off .. that wont happen..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Your fantasy was that the CS ships would all get killed, not what the spaceship's capabilities.

Fact of the matter is .. I never said they "WOULD" wipe out the CS ships .. I said

"Each is more then capable of sinking any ship you mentioned with just their 16 missiles .."

Reading comprehension applied to what I said .. what does it mean .. what I just said KC ? Did I just "fantasize" that they killed all the CS ships ? Or did I show mathmatically how it is VERY likely .. they are able to sink any ship you mentioned with just the 16 missiles they each carry ?

You be the judge ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Those with medium range missiles could take out incoming missiles while they were still 80 miles away

Chances are GREATER .. that they would not take out said missiles .. Defender wins ties .. dictates as much .. then you add on the +4 to dodge ... (each missile this ship carries has) and its even more obvious .. that the ships trying to shoot down the inc NE Missiles .. will not succeed ..

Try not to twist this into me saying its an auto kill .. as I clearly stated chances are greater the CS can not take out the inc NE missiles .. not that they could not ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think that the Naruni wouldn't have crashed, that their ship wouldn't have survived the crash, they wouldn't have stuck around in CS territory, and if they had, wouldn't necessarily have left all their stuff sitting on the ground to be attacked while they hovered overhead or whatever.

They would in fact in a (now please understand this as its important) KNOWN HOSTILE environment deployed their defenses .. with out provocation simply due to trying to protect its ship .. They are not stupid .. why do you act like or my apologies .. rather .. try to impose that they are ?

That makes little to no sense .. KC ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:I already covered this; the spaceships could try to attack the ships, but I've seen nothing to indicate that their attacks would succeed. Their missiles can be shot down too.

Yes they can be shot down. But at a geometrically lower rate .. then the CS missiles getting shot down ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course, if you want your ships to go after the boats, then they can't actually shoot down incoming missiles themselves (actually, as pointed out, they couldn't anyway- I just let them to be nice), and there's that many more missiles hitting the main ship.

And as been pointed out .. Canonly speaking yes another defender can in fact shoot down missiles .. that were shot at some one else ..

Siege on Tolkeen has proven that to be an utter fact ..

Guess you simply ignore that which you do not like .. to suit which ever arguement of the day you deem you want to win ?

Anything else ?

I was searching through the FAQ's, hoping to find a page and book number for people other than those being targeted by a missile attack and found this little gem, where it is stated that there are rules that allow for dodging missile volleys of 4 or more.

#3: Author: Guest, Posted: 1 Mar 2005 11:27
—
Question: Anybody know the required save vs. flashbang or stun grenade?
Answer: No Save permitted! Either you're immune to the full effect, or only distracted for 1D4 seconds, (that's about one or two melee attacks depending on the characters' APM in the affected area), and the loss of initiative. The rules state that anyone without EBA or protective goggles suffers from the effects of the stun grenade. I'd rule that if a character successfully dodges out of the way, they would also avoid the effects.

Question: a Multi-warhead Fires out 4 MRM's apon reaching its target.
dose this Makea Multi-warhead Missles imposssible to Dodge?
how much damage do they Deal?
a Medium Multi-warhead Deal 5D6x10, which is lower then the combioned Damage for 4 normal Medium Rang Missles.
While the Long Range version Deals 2D4 x 100 which is comparable to 4 Med Raneg Missles?
Answer: It would be considered a volley of four missiles for purposes of dodging. Volleys of four or more missiles CAN BE DODGED!
It's called "Air and Space Combat Rules." You can find them in Ninjas & Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, and TMNT&OS (particularly TMNT Guide to the Universe).
The damage they do is listed under the type of missile.

Question: Are fusion blocks considered energy? Can they hurt a cosmo-knight or a creature immune to energy?
Answer: The fusion blocks themselves, no. Setting one off does not hurt a creature immune to energy.

And the link to the FAQ is: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79257

I have not seen anywhere in the FAQ's yet about other people shooting down missiles, but I do remember reading about Free Quebec using that as a strategy with Glitter Boys during an ambush on CS forces. I am going to have to re-read the FQ book this weekend.

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:If the spaceship were to be picked up and thrown at a target, the target would take about 8,000,000d6 MD damage

Then there can be no denying that if it crashed into any CS City Fortress .. that sity fortress (no matter which it is) is utterly and completely destroyed.

Thanks for the info KC !!

As would the ship.
Yet your ship somehow survives a crash completely intact? In spite of the crash and falling rules that would have it destroyed?

Killer Cyborg wrote:So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

Fact of the matter as has been pointed out .. it is in fact canon that other people can shoot down missiles if prepped for such actions (Tolkeen series) clearly show that with FQ's GB's doing that very thing ..

Ergo .. no "Rule" need apply as its been witnessed in action .. canon action to be exact. Hope this helps.

So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

If you want to try to use flavor text to back your argument, go ahead and post the passages, book, and page numbers.

Killer Cyborg wrote:You mentioned the Repo-Bots' range as 2,000'.
A CR-1 railgun has a range of 4,000'.
So either you were wrong then, or you're wrong now.

Still going to have to get closer then that to accurately hit the Repo-Bots .. hate it for you if you think you can just hover at 4,000ft .. and pick them off .. that wont happen..

You were the one who claimed that the repos could shoot the SAMs before the the SAMs could shoot the repos.
As I just said, but you failed to quote for some reason, I expect that they'd all be shooting each other.
You were the only one talking about one side being able to hit the other first, and you got it backward.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Your fantasy was that the CS ships would all get killed, not what the spaceship's capabilities.

Fact of the matter is .. I never said they "WOULD" wipe out the CS ships .. I said

"Each is more then capable of sinking any ship you mentioned with just their 16 missiles .."

Alrighty, I'll rephrase:
"Your fantasy was that the CS ships could all get killed, not the spaceship's capabilities."

Reading comprehension applied to what I said .. what does it mean .. what I just said KC ? Did I just "fantasize" that they killed all the CS ships ? Or did I show mathmatically how it is VERY likely .. they are able to sink any ship you mentioned with just the 16 missiles they each carry ?

You be the judge ..

I gotta go with the "fantasize" option, as I believe I already told you.
Because you offered zero mathematics or support for your claim.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Those with medium range missiles could take out incoming missiles while they were still 80 miles away

Chances are GREATER .. that they would not take out said missiles .. Defender wins ties .. dictates as much .. then you add on the +4 to dodge ... (each missile this ship carries has) and its even more obvious .. that the ships trying to shoot down the inc NE Missiles .. will not succeed ..

Here's some math for you:
A Joseph Prosek series aircraft carrier has 4 gatling rail guns, each with a range of 6k feet and a +4 bonus to strike from their radar targeting system.
+1 to strike for the gunner's Weapon Systems skill.
+1 to strike (or more) for the gunner's Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill.
+6 > +4
The gunners have a 10% better chance of hitting your missiles than the missiles do of dodging, if they're smart missiles to begin with.

The Chi-Town class carriers each have a cannon with a 35 mile range, with shells that should have the same chance of taking out an entire volley as a missile would (75%), 2 medium range missile launchers, 6 gatling rail guns (as previously described) and 4 C-50R Enforcer rail guns.

The other ships each have their own defense systems as well.

And if you ever find that rule that states that people other than the target can shoot down an incoming missile, you should keep in mind that each aircraft carrier has its own troops and vehicles on board.
The Prosek class has 180 Super Samas, 140 Sea Samas, 20 IAR-4 Enforcers, 20 Special Forces SAMAS, 24 Smiling Jack SAMAS and 10 Hellraisers, 40 Trident power armor suits, and 2 Sea Spiders, which could all be flying around the ship in various distances, or standing on deck, waiting to shoot incoming missiles.
(in fact, whether or not people beyond the target can shoot down missiles, those troops located on the ship would all be part of the target, and could shoot the missiles down regardless)
And in addition to the aircraft that would be targeting the main Naruni ship, there would be 24 skycycles, 6 Sea Storm helicopters, and 4 Death Bringers to assist in defending the ship.

Also, there would be escort ships.
Each Wasp class ship have 2 medium range missile launchers, 3 C90R rail gun turrets, and 8 C-50R rail guns, as well as 20 Sea Wasp helicopters, 12 warbird rocket cycles, 12 wind jammer skycycles, and 3 Death Bringers.
Each James Bay class destroyer has 2 missile launchers, 1 cannon, a rail gun turret, and 2 helicopters.
Each Stingray mini-sub has 4 laser cannons (and the CS seems to have close to 700 of these).
Each Sea Storm helicopter has a nose-mounted laser, a nose-mounted rail gun, 8 mini-missile launchers, and 2 additional rail guns.
Each Sea Wasp helicopter has a nose-mounted laser, a nose-mounted rail gun, 6 mini-missile launchers and 4 medium range missile launchers.
And so on, and so on. (I'm leaving a lot out)

And none of them would have anything better to do than to shoot down incoming missiles and aircraft.

I clearly stated chances are greater the CS can not take out the inc NE missiles .. not that they could not ..

Indulge me and quote the exact part where you said that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think that the Naruni wouldn't have crashed, that their ship wouldn't have survived the crash, they wouldn't have stuck around in CS territory, and if they had, wouldn't necessarily have left all their stuff sitting on the ground to be attacked while they hovered overhead or whatever.

They would in fact in a (now please understand this as its important) KNOWN HOSTILE environment deployed their defenses .. with out provocation simply due to trying to protect its ship .. They are not stupid .. why do you act like or my apologies .. rather .. try to impose that they are ?

That makes little to no sense .. KC .. [/quote]

If they weren't stupid, they wouldn't be hanging out in enemy territory.
So you set that particular precedent.

But I was open to the notion that they would rather be able to pick up and fly the heck out of there if necessary without leaving their army abandoned on the ground.
As I believe I mentioned, you are encouraged at any time to explain what exactly they were doing and why, just so I have a better idea of what to anticipate as far as their actions.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I already covered this; the spaceships could try to attack the ships, but I've seen nothing to indicate that their attacks would succeed. Their missiles can be shot down too.

Yes they can be shot down. But at a geometrically lower rate .. then the CS missiles getting shot down ..

Really?"Geometrically"?

Siege on Tolkeen has proven that to be an utter fact ..

Guess you simply ignore that which you do not like .. to suit which ever arguement of the day you deem you want to win ?

I can't ignore what nobody's told me.
Still waiting on the book and page number for that one.
Quoting the passage wouldn't hurt either.

Anything else ?

Yeah... if the Repo-bots have a range of 2000' on their guns, and they're on the ground, and you expect the repo-bots to protect the ship from incoming missiles... where exactly do you envision the ship?

Lenwen wrote:My Turn .. KC

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I didn't address that, because YOU NEVER MENTIONED IT.
You mentioned the existence of the bots, sure, but you've half-assed this scenario so badly that if you ever said anything about them "Spreading out just 10-20,000 of them up to 50 miles out in a semi-circular formation about 15 miles wide" it got lost in the mix.
And you keep changing it out from under people every time they give you an answer that you don't like.

Fact of the matter KC, everything I've stated I never have "changed" it out .. to suit what ever I did not like. It is not my fault if people do not have the book itself to verify that which I know to be factual cargo of the ship in question.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
First it was "a spaceship crashes in CS territory"

Actually no it has always been a Commodity class Naruni ship with a specific cargo load .. Hence the heading of the actual thread .. (might wanna check that out ..)

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then it was "oh, and even though this ship crashed into the Earth, for some unknown reason, none of the external guns are damaged, none of the passengers or cargo are damaged, and in fact the ship works perfectly, except for some reason it can't leave orbit."

There are in fact crashes were automobiles work even after the crash itself, tho not at top speeds .. to which is how I had thought it would be taken .. my humble apologies .. if I did not spell this out well enough for you to put 2 and 2 together ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then it was "Oh, and even though the ship is undamaged for some reason, the fall was full terminal velocity and the impact of it hitting shook the foundations of chi-town."

Actually that was a side thing between myself and cchopps.. Again .. I apologize if you did not make that connection in an of itself ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then, "Oh, and they have dozens of spaceships escorting them."

Actually to the point they are not "escorting" anything .. the fact of the matter is they are part of the actual compliment of the ships "additional vehicles" .. ergo they are always present no matter which type of cargo the ship itself is carrying .. kapeesh ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Then, "Oh, and some of these spaceships are flying way up high, using their super-sensors that I won't detail to know everything that the CS is doing."

Are you telling me that a starship figher is not going to be able to fly up way high .. to use thier super-sensors in an attempt at helping to defend the mothership ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
And, "Oh, and every missile the Naruni has is probably a smart missile for some reason."

How can you doubt anything but this to be the truth when dealing with Phase World tech from one of thee highest tech merchants IN .. the 3 galaxies ..

Really KC ?

Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:And NOW, it's "But you're not taking into account that the repo-bots got unloaded onto the ground and are all running around there shooting missiles out of the sky!"

Which would be faster and lets be real about this question ..

1) - Chi-town co-ordinate a multi-warship multi-theater launching of missiles from hundreds of miles away .. with complete air support from Fighters .. along with everything else you stated .. Oh .. and yea .. all that AFTER .. all the time it took the CS to gather its intel on the ship .. get it back to High command .. have them discuss it all and their appropriate countermeasures .. then launch said attack ..

Or ..

2) - Unload all Repo-Bots .. in a known hostile enviorment, set up a workable peremeter .. with air support and artillery support all comming from 1 ship ..

I think you and I are smart enough to know which one would be a faster operation .. KC ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Come up with a story, say whatever the hell it IS, and stick with it.

I have .. 1 Commodaty ship .. 99,400 repo-bots .. and other "standard" cargo .. in CS territory .. Tell me again .. how did I change it in any way shape or form ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
But yeah, okay. The army of repobots is all on the ground tearing up the place.

Actually not tearing up the place .. as I said .. in a defensive posture ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Now find me the rule that says that somebody other than the target can shoot down an incoming missile.

Really ? Are you telling me that No one other then the intended target .. can shoot down missiles ?

Scuse me ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:(And while you're at it, try to figure out how those guys would fare against a few hundred thousand SAMAS that are backed by hundreds of Enforces, Death's Head Transports, Tanks, Etc. etc. etc.)

Actually they would do quite well .. Face the facts .. the Samas have to get within their own weapon systems range to do any damage to the Repo-Bots .. which lets face the facts .. puts them in the range of the Repo-Bots built in unlimited ammo supplied weapon systems as well ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:The 44 Spit Fire Attack ships (Each nearly twice as fast as any missile in CS military mind you) +1 attack due to being piloted by Repo bots (16 missiles each, 4d6x100, 150ft blast radius, 1,400 miles) Each is more then capable of sinking any ship you mentioned with just their 16 missiles ..

You're only basing that on fantasy.

Sorry KC .. this is not made up .. You used Naval ships to launch all your missiles .. which puts their top speed at exactly what the book states they are .. Mach 3 at most .. the Spitfire can achieve a top speed of mach 5 in an atmosphere .. (nearly twice as fast.. as I've said)

Each spitfire has a payload of 16 LRM's .. each with 1400 mile range on them .. each is +5 strike, +4 dodge and have 2 actions per melee round .. each does 4d6x100 MD ..

Those are hard core book facts of the Spitfire's missile payload. As can be seen on pg 65 of Fleets of the 3 Galaxies.

And are in fact not fantasy .. (as it were LMAO !! )

Killer Cyborg wrote:"Oh, and all the tanks are defending the ship somehow.

In known hostile territory .. you think the Naruni would not know how to deploy their own military hardware .. to defend their own assets ?

Really ? ? ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I mentioned some of the big stuff. And I went with conservative estimates. The CS might have thousands of some of those jets, and they could have thousands of ground-based LRM launchers.

And they might not have enough missiles to put to use against the ship an its assets after going threw a war that lasted how long .. with near 24/7 missile barrages .. no my friend .. I very highly doubt the CS has the missiles enmass .. to do what your saying .. especially after such a huge long war .. (tho admittedly .. I very well may be wrong.)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Not to mention .. the destroyer's .. submarines .. and aircraft carriers .. will be launching their missiles from minimum of hundreds of miles away .. and with the tracking systems of these "Star ships" .. they will have picked them up the second they were launched .. which means even GREATER .. chance at launching their own missiles in reaction to defend against those missiles ..

Since I gave the spacehip a 100% hit and kill ratio with their missiles, I'm not sure how you think that they could do any better.

As I was not aware I had to do the connection for you .. each Spitfire ship could track the missiles back to where they came from an each Spitfire has the military hardware to sink each and every ship that launched the missiles .. relatively easy ..

blah blah... anyways
It can't have both the Hovertanks and the 99,400 repobots. The list of Possible Cargos is as if each bullet is with all of the "cans" storing the same item. The listing of the 99,400 inactive repo-bots is if the ship is being EXCLUSIVELY used as a troop transport. Both right there under number 6 on page 68.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Not to mention that if the FQ got word they'd be happy to quick ship a bunch of Glitterboys down to defend their buddies.

Yup. But I left them out of things, as well as the NGR, because I figured that if people got the general gist of the firepower the CS is capable if something gets there attention bad enough, that people would realize that it's not as simple as "Big ship with big tech smash puny humans."
The CS isn't undefeatable by any means, but they are the toughest power in North America, and one of the toughest powers on Rifts Earth. They have firepower that holds up fairly well across the megaverse (if lower than some places), they have numbers, and they're really well dug-in.

Yeah but the NGR would take quite a bit longer to get on site while FQ is right next door.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Book, page number, and exact quote that states this.

Has he responded yet? They aren't mini-missiles they are worse they are micro-missiles
Dimension Book 3 page 56
And they come in both varieties dumb and smart
the smart are +4 to strike and dodge and fly at 60 mph while stalking using a contra gravity system but are able to accelerate in a straight line up to Mach 2
range 2 miles and do 6d6 MD to a 3 foot area.
Page 56 Dimension Book 3
Oops same page has the all Naruni Guided missiles are +5 to strike +4 dodge with two attacks per melee

Zer0 Kay wrote:blah blah... anyways
It can't have both the Hovertanks and the 99,400 repobots. The list of Possible Cargos is as if each bullet is with all of the "cans" storing the same item. The listing of the 99,400 inactive repo-bots is if the ship is being EXCLUSIVELY used as a troop transport. Both right there under number 6 on page 68.

Can you do me a huge favor .. an STOP .. omitting what is right above the "Cargo" bullet ?

Fleets of the 3 Galaxies, pg 68 2nd column Bullet 5. Additional Vehicles wrote:The Commodity carries 4 wings of Fire-Spitter Attack ships (NCD-02 corprate upgrade model)
with 11 fighters per wing. For Ground assault, it carries 30 Juggernaut Heavy Tanks (also a corporate upgrade that uses an anti-matter power reactor, CG hover system, K-HEX missiles, and the main gun has no recharge time)

Notice the Bullet .. ----> 5. Additional Vehicles < ----

Also take notice that it does not state this as "additional cargo" .. or in the "Cargo" bullet section at all ..

Which means not only is it capable of carrying the 99,400 Repo-Bots .. but the "additional vehicles" as well ..

Zero Kay .. even you should have been able to make that connection ..

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Book, page number, and exact quote that states this.

Has he responded yet? They aren't mini-missiles they are worse they are micro-missiles
Dimension Book 3 page 56

Thats where it was .. I was looking everywhere but that book in particular ..

There you are KC ..

Hope that helps ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:As would the ship.
Yet your ship somehow survives a crash completely intact? In spite of the crash and falling rules that would have it destroyed?

Yet .. again .. (second time I've stated this now, something you seem to be ignoring on pourpose)

That was something off the topic .. between myself an Cchopps .. not part of the overall discussion ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

And yet again .. (second time for this as well.. showing a pattern of totally ignoring previous posts/statements) it has happened in canon sourced material in which FQ did that very thing .. rule or no rule to back it up .. its possible .. and its even already BEEN done ..

You can try to ask people to look for the "rule" all you want .. and totally ignore the presented information .. just because you do not like it .. all you want .. (which makes me laugh ..)

Killer Cyborg wrote:You were the one who claimed that the repos could shoot the SAMs before the the SAMs could shoot the repos.

4,000ft range on the Samas railguns ..
2,000ft range on the Repo-bots (unlimited) ammo

Repo-bots = 900 MDC .. (to include their shields) and unlimited ammo with incredible bonas to dodge ..
Samas (which one are you trying to talk about here in this instance?)

Killer Cyborg wrote:And none of them would have anything better to do than to shoot down incoming missiles and aircraft.

And each entire ship its compliment and everything .. has maby at most .. 7 attacks against the missile .. before it strikes.. Especially if the ship is attempting to shoot down multiple other inc missiles ..

Would you like me to do the math per round on how fast they would reach the ship ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I gotta go with the "fantasize" option, as I believe I already told you.
Because you offered zero mathematics or support for your claim.

A more apt responce on your part would actually be ..

"No I do not like the math you showed .. because it ruins my whole arguement that the Fire Spitters can not shoot down entire CS warships with just their missiles.. "

I actually did in fact show you the math .. Just because you do not like that they would do what I said .. does not mean I did not show the math ..

Here is my exact quote on the math for which you claim I never showed .. (clearly your ignoring things .. to suit that which your trying to do here which is clearly Troll/instigate)

Lenwen wrote:Each spitfire has a payload of 16 LRM's .. each with 1400 mile range on them .. each is +5 strike, +4 dodge and have 2 actions per melee round .. each does 4d6x100 MD ..

Simple addition tells us that each missile will do 400-2400 mdc ..
Times 16 missiles = 6400 - 38,400 MD .. (the high end is over twice the amount needed to sink any ship in the CS military mind you) which means on "AVERAGE" damage .. the Fire Spitter is going to down any ship it comes across .. if it launches all its missiles at the ship ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:If they weren't stupid, they wouldn't be hanging out in enemy territory.

They are not as you termed .. "Hanging" out in enemy territory ..

But if that is what you wish to try to imply .. so be it ..

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can't ignore what nobody's told me.

Two people have in fact told you .. myself and another person. The other person is the one who actually pointed that very fact out ..

If you yet again .. choose to pick an choose what you read .. and ignore everything else.. more power to ya .. bud.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah... if the Repo-bots have a range of 2000' on their guns, and they're on the ground, and you expect the repo-bots to protect the ship from incoming missiles... where exactly do you envision the ship?

Its already been explained .. you seem to be (yet again.. /yawn) ignoring previous posts/statements..

4,000ft range on the Samas railguns ..
2,000ft range on the Repo-bots (unlimited) ammo

Repo-bots = 900 MDC .. (to include their shields) and unlimited ammo with incredible bonas to dodge ..
Samas (which one are you trying to talk about here in this instance?)

Umm, Lenwen, I hate to prove you wrong, but the Repo-Bot's can run at a maximum of 100 mph, while the cruising speed for SAMAS (original) is 150 mph, maxing out 300 mph. They would just circle the Reop-Bots at about 3,900 feet, strafing them on the ground. However their railguns only hold enough ammo for 50 bursts, so essentially 50 shots (since it only fires in bursts). That is 50 - 200 MD damage if all of the attacks hit every time. They would need at least 5 standard SAMAS suits, hitting each and every time, doing max damage every time. Not to mention the 2 mini-missiles each SAMAS has. I don't have the stats for the Super SAMAS suits or the Smiling Jacks at hand (translates to: my copy of the CWC is buried and I don't feel like digging it out because I need to get started on dinner for my children), so that is going to change things as well.

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

And you DO realize that the CS has no clue what a space ship looks like, much less one owned by Naruni? Hell, for that matter, would they even know what Repo-Bots are or who they are owned by?

dragonfett wrote:

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

And you DO realize that the CS has no clue what a space ship looks like, much less one owned by Naruni? Hell, for that matter, would they even know what Repo-Bots are or who they are owned by?

They could always ask. Anyway, does anyone know what the range is on the plasma hand cannon that comes standard issue with the Naruni Repo-bot? I know the damage is 2d6x10 but it lacks a listed range.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Not to mention that if the FQ got word they'd be happy to quick ship a bunch of Glitterboys down to defend their buddies.

Yup. But I left them out of things, as well as the NGR, because I figured that if people got the general gist of the firepower the CS is capable if something gets there attention bad enough, that people would realize that it's not as simple as "Big ship with big tech smash puny humans."
The CS isn't undefeatable by any means, but they are the toughest power in North America, and one of the toughest powers on Rifts Earth. They have firepower that holds up fairly well across the megaverse (if lower than some places), they have numbers, and they're really well dug-in.

Yeah but the NGR would take quite a bit longer to get on site while FQ is right next door.

Agreed.
Also, the NGR might be busy enough with their own stuff. It would depend on what the CS could offer them to make it worth their while.

Lenwen wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter ..

Book, page number, and exact quote that states this.

Has he responded yet? They aren't mini-missiles they are worse they are micro-missiles
Dimension Book 3 page 56

Thats where it was .. I was looking everywhere but that book in particular ..

There you are KC ..

Hope that helps ..

It certainly does. Thanks, Zero!

I especially enjoyed this part:

And they come in both varieties dumb and smart

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:As would the ship.
Yet your ship somehow survives a crash completely intact? In spite of the crash and falling rules that would have it destroyed?

Yet .. again .. (second time I've stated this now, something you seem to be ignoring on pourpose)

That was something off the topic .. between myself an Cchopps .. not part of the overall discussion ..

So... the very first post of this topic, where you set the premise that a naruni ship has crashed... that was off topic?
Something just between yourself and Cchopps?

Interesting premise.
Maybe it should have been a PM, then, instead of the start of a new Topic.

Killer Cyborg wrote:So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

And yet again .. (second time for this as well.. showing a pattern of totally ignoring previous posts/statements) it has happened in canon sourced material in which FQ did that very thing .. rule or no rule to back it up .. its possible .. and its even already BEEN done ..

You can try to ask people to look for the "rule" all you want .. and totally ignore the presented information .. just because you do not like it .. all you want .. (which makes me laugh ..)

So... that would mean "Sorry, KC, I know of no such rule."

(Again, though, if you want to try for flavor text, go ahead and give the book, page number, and quote)

Killer Cyborg wrote:You were the one who claimed that the repos could shoot the SAMs before the the SAMs could shoot the repos.

4,000ft range on the Samas railguns ..
2,000ft range on the Repo-bots (unlimited) ammo
Repo-bots = 900 MDC .. (to include their shields) and unlimited ammo with incredible bonas to dodge ..
Samas (which one are you trying to talk about here in this instance?)[/quote]

Are you trying to say that you think that unlimited ammo would make them shoot farther?
Because otherwise, I don't get why you're talking about that in a section about who out-ranges who.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And none of them would have anything better to do than to shoot down incoming missiles and aircraft.

And each entire ship its compliment and everything .. has maby at most .. 7 attacks against the missile .. before it strikes.. Especially if the ship is attempting to shoot down multiple other inc missiles ..

There are only 44 spaceships (unless you have some others hidden up your... sleeve). Each one could fire a volley and have that volley fired upon by over a dozen ships, each with more than one set of weapons.

Would you like me to do the math per round on how fast they would reach the ship ?

Sure, why not?

Killer Cyborg wrote:I gotta go with the "fantasize" option, as I believe I already told you.
Because you offered zero mathematics or support for your claim.

A more apt responce on your part would actually be ..

"No I do not like the math you showed .. because it ruins my whole arguement that the Fire Spitters can not shoot down entire CS warships with just their missiles.. "

I actually did in fact show you the math .. Just because you do not like that they would do what I said .. does not mean I did not show the math ..

Here is my exact quote on the math for which you claim I never showed .. (clearly your ignoring things .. to suit that which your trying to do here which is clearly Troll/instigate)

Lenwen wrote:Each spitfire has a payload of 16 LRM's .. each with 1400 mile range on them .. each is +5 strike, +4 dodge and have 2 actions per melee round .. each does 4d6x100 MD ..

That's not math. That's just listing some stats.

Simple addition tells us that each missile will do 400-2400 mdc ..
Times 16 missiles = 6400 - 38,400 MD .. (the high end is over twice the amount needed to sink any ship in the CS military mind you) which means on "AVERAGE" damage .. the Fire Spitter is going to down any ship it comes across .. if it launches all its missiles at the ship ..

THAT is math, but it's pretty crappy math because all you're doing is trying to computed the average damage all the missiles could do if they hit.
But there's nothing to indicate they hit.

I put forth the effort to at least go for a simulation, giving the defenders benefit of doubt and a 100% hit and kill ratio against incoming missiles.
If you want to have a pretense of legitimacy in this, you might try the same thing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:If they weren't stupid, they wouldn't be hanging out in enemy territory.

They are not as you termed .. "Hanging" out in enemy territory ..

But if that is what you wish to try to imply .. so be it ..

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

Really? Why?
The Naruni normally doesn't have any wish to get into random firefights just because they have the spaceship version of a flat tire in a bad neighborhood.
Why not just shoot down the first volley or two of missiles, then fly off to someplace quieter?

There could be a reason, but you've failed to provide any so are.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I can't ignore what nobody's told me.

Two people have in fact told you .. myself and another person. The other person is the one who actually pointed that very fact out ..

No, in fact nobody has told me the book and page number of anything here, except ZeroK regarding the missiles you wrongly claimed were all smart missiles.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yeah... if the Repo-bots have a range of 2000' on their guns, and they're on the ground, and you expect the repo-bots to protect the ship from incoming missiles... where exactly do you envision the ship?

Its already been explained .. you seem to be (yet again.. /yawn) ignoring previous posts/statements..

Humor me and re-explain where exactly that ship is supposed to be.

dragonfett wrote:

4,000ft range on the Samas railguns ..
2,000ft range on the Repo-bots (unlimited) ammo

Repo-bots = 900 MDC .. (to include their shields) and unlimited ammo with incredible bonas to dodge ..
Samas (which one are you trying to talk about here in this instance?)

Umm, Lenwen, I hate to prove you wrong, but the Repo-Bot's can run at a maximum of 100 mph, while the cruising speed for SAMAS (original) is 150 mph, maxing out 300 mph. They would just circle the Reop-Bots at about 3,900 feet, strafing them on the ground. However their railguns only hold enough ammo for 50 bursts, so essentially 50 shots (since it only fires in bursts). That is 50 - 200 MD damage if all of the attacks hit every time. They would need at least 5 standard SAMAS suits, hitting each and every time, doing max damage every time. Not to mention the 2 mini-missiles each SAMAS has. I don't have the stats for the Super SAMAS suits or the Smiling Jacks at hand (translates to: my copy of the CWC is buried and I don't feel like digging it out because I need to get started on dinner for my children), so that is going to change things as well.

Good calculations.
The CS has 2 million spare SAMAS suits lying around. I'm pretty sure they could spare some for a fight this big.
I believe that's why I mentioned a few hundred thousand of them as a part of the attack force.

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

And you DO realize that the CS has no clue what a space ship looks like, much less one owned by Naruni? Hell, for that matter, would they even know what Repo-Bots are or who they are owned by?

They don't, but they wouldn't care either. The passage I quoted earlier said that they pretty much shoot at anything that flies overhead that doesn't have permission.
But their initial attacks would be able to be easily shrugged off by this ship, and I see no reason why a minor attack would make them want to engage in a full-blown, long-term battle with the Coalition States.
If nothing else, missiles are expensive. Why waste them if you don't need to?

The CS has 2 million spare SAMAS suits lying around. I'm pretty sure they could spare some for a fight this big.
I believe that's why I mentioned a few hundred thousand of them as a part of the attack force.

And just how many people are in the CS Armed Forces, total? I think someone had said 1 million? So that basically means that there are 2 SAMAS suits for every member of the CS Armed Forces. Not to mention someone on this thread had mentioned that every grunt gets trained in operating power armors and robot vehicles (in fact, I believe that it was KC IIRC), but they don't. They get seven secondary skills with unlimited access to the piloting skills, including the ones needed for piloting and combat (both general and elite) in power armors and robot vehicles, it doesn't change the fact that it is not a requirement for grunts to learn those skills, so I would say maybe half would pick up the skills needed.

Not to mention that it would take at least an hour to mobilize a few hundred thousand pilots for the SAMAS suits to be ready to fly, depending on what time of day this all went down. If it happened during midday, I could see it taking as little as 15 minutes to have the first group of SAM's flying out (having another group getting ready to go to standby) to more or less gather intel on the ship, upwards to an hour (again depending on how far from a CS outpost it is) to fly there, gather intel, and radio back, sending out that next group and taking about 30 - 45 minutes to get the rest flying. That's 1 hour and 15 minutes before the first group of SAM's show up, 2 hours and 15 minutes before the second group shows up, and at least 3 hours and 45 minutes before the rest of them showing up, and that's if they are all launching from the same base (which I am assuming for this that the first two groups were launched from the nearest CS installation and the ship goes down more toward the outside of CS held territory because I can't remember and can't find where exactly it supposedly crashed other than CS held territory). If this happens in the middle of the night, the response times could be twice that, not to mention that the only way that the SAM's are going to be truly effective is if they outnumber the Repo-Bots by about 30 to 1 at one time (i.e., not coming in waves after waves).

dragonfett wrote:

The CS has 2 million spare SAMAS suits lying around. I'm pretty sure they could spare some for a fight this big.
I believe that's why I mentioned a few hundred thousand of them as a part of the attack force.

And just how many people are in the CS Armed Forces, total? I think someone had said 1 million? So that basically means that there are 2 SAMAS suits for every member of the CS Armed Forces.

More, really, because the 2 million is apparently spare they have lying around in storage, not including the stuff they have actually in use, and (IIRC) not including Super Samas, Smiling Jack, etc. etc.
Weird, huh?

Edit: I made a wicked mistake on that estimate: I assumed that they're all in storage, and I was off by over a million suits of Samas.

Not to mention someone on this thread had mentioned that every grunt gets trained in operating power armors and robot vehicles (in fact, I believe that it was KC IIRC), but they don't.

RUE, 233
OCC Skills.
8 Down = Robot Combat: Basic

[Not to mention that it would take at least an hour to mobilize a few hundred thousand pilots for the SAMAS suits to be ready to fly, depending on what time of day this all went down

I'd say at least 3-5 hours.
As I've said, I'm going on the assumption that there are some preliminary battles and such, and that there are at least several hours to figure out and prepare what they'd need.
Heck, it could take a day or so.

But if the ship hangs out long enough, it'll get stomped.

not to mention that the only way that the SAM's are going to be truly effective is if they outnumber the Repo-Bots by about 30 to 1 at one time (i.e., not coming in waves after waves).

I dunno; there was a pretty good argument made for them flying around 3900' away from the Repos and shooting them from there.
And that would just be the SAMs. There's also the Enforcers, Abolishers, Death's Head Transports, Spider Skull Walkers, Mark V APCs, Skycycles, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I don't see the CS pulling any punches here; they see a spaceship as big as a city crash into the ground, then drop off a crapload of killer borgs and tanks, then (I presume) start flying around the area.
That would be seen as a full-scale invasion.

RUE, 233
OCC Skills.
8 Down = Robot Combat: Basic

Would that be the left or right column? If it is the right column, please note that is CS SAMAS Pilot OCC, not the CS Grunt OCC. Now if this is what you had meant that there are over 1 million SAMAS Pilots, then I would like to know where you are getting your numbers.

I dunno; there was a pretty good argument made for them flying around 3900' away from the Repos and shooting them from there.
And that would just be the SAMs. There's also the Enforcers, Abolishers, Death's Head Transports, Spider Skull Walkers, Mark V APCs, Skycycles, etc. etc. etc. etc.

The big problem with the SAM's is the ammo issue. As for the other non-flying robots and power armors, their max speed is significantly lower, not to mention that terrain would become an issue as well. It could very well take other power armors/robots 3 to 10 times longer to get on site due to those factors.

dragonfett wrote:

RUE, 233
OCC Skills.
8 Down = Robot Combat: Basic

Would that be the left or right column? If it is the right column, please note that is CS SAMAS Pilot OCC, not the CS Grunt OCC.

Left column, under Coalition Grunt OCC stats.
Between "Radio: Basic (+10%)
and
Sensory Equipment (+10%)

What, not there in your book?
My RUE is 2nd printing, if that helps.

In the original Rifts book (13th printing), it's on p. 51, under OCC skills.
4th down, between "Pilot Tank & APC (+14%)" and "Read Sensory Equipment (+10%).

Now if this is what you had meant that there are over 1 million SAMAS Pilots, then I would like to know where you are getting your numbers.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, CWC states that there are 3.2 million suits of SAMAS armor, and half of these are in use by the ISS.
So that's 1.6 million suits the ISS is using, which means there's probably over a million pilots right there. Unless they're using the SAMs for paperweights or something.

But also the CS Grunts are all trained, unless I'm hallucinating.

The big problem with the SAM's is the ammo issue. As for the other non-flying robots and power armors, their max speed is significantly lower, not to mention that terrain would become an issue as well. It could very well take other power armors/robots 3 to 10 times longer to get on site due to those factors.

Unless they were making a coordinated attack, instead of just a kind of "first come, first serve" thing.
Which, after x number of hours of fighting, observing, and planning, I kind of think that they would be.

I apologize, I was looking for the skill to say Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic, which is why I had overlooked it so many times, however they still need the skill Pilot: Robots and Power Armor to be able to move and fly in the SAM's, which they don't automatically get. All Robot Combat: Basic allows them to do be part of a crew in a Robot Vehicle (i.e. the UAR-1 Enforcer, IAR-2 Abolisher, etc.).

dragonfett wrote:I apologize, I was looking for the skill to say Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic, which is why I had overlooked it so many times,

No problem.
I'm just glad I wasn't hallucinating.

however they still need the skill Pilot: Robots and Power Armor to be able to move and fly in the SAM's, which they don't automatically get. All Robot Combat: Basic allows them to do be part of a crew in a Robot Vehicle (i.e. the UAR-1 Enforcer, IAR-2 Abolisher, etc.).

I can certainly see how you would think so.
However:
RUE 319
Basic combat training in robot vehicles and power armor gives the pilot a fair working knowledge of most robot vehicles and their combat capabilities. The pilot will be able to operate the robot and use the various weapon systems and fighting capabilities, but not a t maximum skill and efficiency.

The highlighted portions show that this skill is meant for the pilots, the people operating the bot. This is also inferred from reading the bonuses provided by the skill: hand to hand combat bonuses for various robots that could only be utilized if the person with the skill is piloting the bot.

It's not your fault; It's Palladium's fault.
Open up your original Rifts book, flip to p. 53, and you'll note that the Coalition Elite RPA OCC does NOT list "Pilot: Robots and Power Armor" anywhere among its skills either, even though such skill would be crucial for that OCC.
Flip to p. 54 of the same book, and note that the Coalition Military Specialist OCC has Robot Combat Elite, but does not have "Pilot: Robots and Power Armor" listed among his/her skills.
Flip to p. 65, and look at the Glitter Boy OCC: "Robot Combat: Basic", "Robot Combat: Elite," but no "Pilot: Robots and Power Armor" skill.

There was a bit of discussion about the implications of this, back in the day, just as there was discussion about the fact that some OCCs started off with Computer Operation (which required the Literacy skill), but NOT literacy.
Eventually, it was decided that Palladium's in tent was an assumption that if a person has a skill as an OCC skill, they also have the prerequisites for that skill.
In the case of Robot Combat skills, that would be Robot Piloting. It's hard to jump-kick and judo-chop in a giant robot if you can't even move the thing around effectively.

When Palladium wrote RUE, they updated thins to avoid confusion by including the prerequisite skills for robot pilots (people often held up "Their robot pilots can't even pilot robots!" as a mark against Palladium's competency).
Unfortunately, they did not do this with every class, as you can tell with the grunt.

"Ah," you might be thinking, "But isn't it possible that they deliberately left the Grunt with only the one skill, because they're not meant to be pilots?"
Not very likely.
You already noticed one difference between the Grunt and the SAMAS pilot in RUE: the Grunt only lists "Robot Combat: Basic," but the SAMAS (which originally shared the same wording, before the update) in RUE lists "Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic."
From that, you can tell that they did not do a good job of updating the skill lists for the grunt, at least not as far as robots and power armor are concerned.

Finally, there is already a skill that allows a person to act as a gunner for giant robots and other vehicles: the skill "Weapon Systems."
RUE 320
This is the complete understanding of weapon units and systems incorporated into military vehicles, power armor, and robot vehicles.
Complete understanding of the weapon systems of robots and power armor. This is the skill used for the weapons, the Robot Combat skill is what gives you the ability to leap-kick, judo-chop, and gain extra attacks in combat. It's all about physical movement of the robot, part of piloting.

It's just that Palladium forgot to update the Grunts when they updated other OCCs.

You know, sometimes I really wish that Palladium would listen to their customers and fix their mistakes like that one.

On a side note, does having the skill Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic give them the Pilot: RPA at it's base skill with no level progression or with full level progression. I personally am of the opinion that it does not offer the benefits of level progression. Otherwise there would be no reason to keep the skill Pilot: RPA since Robot Combat does not have any pre-requisites (nor is it a military piloting skill, apparently).

Lenwen wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:blah blah... anyways
It can't have both the Hovertanks and the 99,400 repobots. The list of Possible Cargos is as if each bullet is with all of the "cans" storing the same item. The listing of the 99,400 inactive repo-bots is if the ship is being EXCLUSIVELY used as a troop transport. Both right there under number 6 on page 68.

Can you do me a huge favor .. an STOP .. omitting what is right above the "Cargo" bullet ?

Fleets of the 3 Galaxies, pg 68 2nd column Bullet 5. Additional Vehicles wrote:The Commodity carries 4 wings of Fire-Spitter Attack ships (NCD-02 corprate upgrade model)
with 11 fighters per wing. For Ground assault, it carries 30 Juggernaut Heavy Tanks (also a corporate upgrade that uses an anti-matter power reactor, CG hover system, K-HEX missiles, and the main gun has no recharge time)

Notice the Bullet .. ----> 5. Additional Vehicles < ----

Also take notice that it does not state this as "additional cargo" .. or in the "Cargo" bullet section at all ..

Which means not only is it capable of carrying the 99,400 Repo-Bots .. but the "additional vehicles" as well ..

Zero Kay .. even you should have been able to make that connection ..

Oops your right, I even posted that about the fighters and the 30 Juggies earlier. So don't tell me to QUIT omitting it, as that was the first time.

As I said I did make the connection EARLIER in this thread. For some reason I thout you were having more than 30.

And your even me statement is quite insulting as it infers that it is so simple that even I should be able to get it rather than something like "You should have got that." You know though even you should have noticed that I DID notice that earlier and maybe asked why the heck I didn't remember that. Heck even you should be able to find the reference on the missiles it's not like there are a ton of Naruni equipment books. Message: Chill on the "even you".

Colt47 wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Psst.. You DO know the CS has a shoot first directive when it comes to Naruni .. right ? No matter where their ship is .. if the CS see's it .. they will gun for it .. which will bring a like responce from the Naruni vessel an its ships compliment

And you DO realize that the CS has no clue what a space ship looks like, much less one owned by Naruni? Hell, for that matter, would they even know what Repo-Bots are or who they are owned by?

They could always ask. Anyway, does anyone know what the range is on the plasma hand cannon that comes standard issue with the Naruni Repo-bot? I know the damage is 2d6x10 but it lacks a listed range.

They follow Naruni Design asthetics though. They could make a guess but may not want to act on it immediatly but rather do some recon and then when fired on nuke them from orbit.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

dragonfett wrote:I apologize, I was looking for the skill to say Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic, which is why I had overlooked it so many times,

No problem.
I'm just glad I wasn't hallucinating.

This time??

dragonfett wrote:You know, sometimes I really wish that Palladium would listen to their customers and fix their mistakes like that one.

On a side note, does having the skill Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic give them the Pilot: RPA at it's base skill with no level progression or with full level progression. I personally am of the opinion that it does not offer the benefits of level progression. Otherwise there would be no reason to keep the skill Pilot: RPA since Robot Combat does not have any pre-requisites (nor is it a military piloting skill, apparently).

That is a good question that I do not think has any kind of official answer.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

dragonfett wrote:I apologize, I was looking for the skill to say Pilot: Robot Combat: Basic, which is why I had overlooked it so many times,

No problem.
I'm just glad I wasn't hallucinating.

This time??

Quiet, figment.

Killer Cyborg wrote:So... the very first post of this topic, where you set the premise that a naruni ship has crashed... that was off topic?

If you had been talking about that .. then why would you mention this one in an earlier post of yours ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Then it was "Oh, and even though the ship is undamaged for some reason, the fall was full terminal velocity and the impact of it hitting shook the foundations of chi-town."

NOTE*
I could not help but notice .. I had to actually go to my post .. to find that you even wrote this above post .. Perhaps .. you should state yourside of the arguement then ---> not delete <--- .. previous posts ..

The fact of the matter is you just attempted to switch what you and I were talking about from the Cchopps an Lenwen discussion which again I will point out .. was off the topic .. (wether you understand this .. or not) it was off topic ..

Killer Cyborg .. I had thought better of you then to go back and try to delete previous posts .. to try to make a "NEW" arguement .. but if that is how you roll .. I will simply just look back at my quotations of you for future refrences ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you trying to say that you think that unlimited ammo would make them shoot farther?
Because otherwise, I don't get why you're talking about that in a section about who out-ranges who.

Are you telling me that the weapons payload will not effect the outcome of the fight ?

Please ..

We BOTH .. know (or at least should) that is not the case .. One of the combatents has unlimited ammo .. One does not .. means that one will either have to run away .. to get filled up again or die ..

Of that you can not debate me on Killer Cyborg.

Killer Cyborg wrote:There are only 44 spaceships (unless you have some others hidden up your... sleeve). Each one could fire a volley and have that volley fired upon by over a dozen ships, each with more than one set of weapons.

Actually each Fire Spitter has a LADAR that has a range of 1500 miles .. and can track 60 targets .. Once it tracked the Capital ships of the CS .. it can fly under CS radar .. at max speed which is an astonishing Mach 5 .. before the Ship know's its even enrout launch its own missiles .. (+5 to strike, dodge and 2 actions per melee round flying also at mach 3.) Which means if they are also flying under the CS radar .. no way to track the incomming NE missiles .. and no way to fire upon said Missiles .. ergo .. almost an auto-hit ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Would you like me to do the math per round on how fast they would reach the ship ?

Sure, why not?

The standard atmospheric model tells us that the speed of sound, or Mach 1, at sea level is:

1,116.4 ft/s
340.29 m/s
761.18 mph
1,224.74 km/h
661.32 knots

And each ship can achieve mach 5 .. so .. the numbers then jump to ..
5,582 ft/s
1,701.45 M/s
3,805.9 mph
6,123.7 km/s
3,306.6 knots

Which translates into .. 5,582 ft per second .. which means the ship in 1 melee action travels .. 5,582ft .. in 1 melee round (15 seconds) 83,730ft per round ..

If you wish to go "By the rules" .. every 50 miles per hour over 30 .. is +1 to dodge .. so lets look at the Mach 5 speed closer shall we ?

3,805 mph /50 mph = +76 to dodge .. ontop of the ships normal +5 to dodge .. which grants the ship a total (by the book) bonus of +81 to dodge .. (due to the relative speed its travelling)

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Simple addition tells us that each missile will do 400-2400 mdc ..
Times 16 missiles = 6400 - 38,400 MD .. (the high end is over twice the amount needed to sink any ship in the CS military mind you) which means on "AVERAGE" damage .. the Fire Spitter is going to down any ship it comes across .. if it launches all its missiles at the ship ..

THAT is math, but it's pretty crappy math

Sticks an stones love ...

Killer Cyborg wrote:No, in fact nobody has told me the book and page number of anything here, except ZeroK regarding the missiles you wrongly claimed were all smart missiles

Wrong .. I never said all of Naruni missiles were smart .. I simply stated .. their mini missiles were smart to which you decided to try to dispute .. I say try .. because Zero clearly showed you even Naruni's Micro missiles are in fact smart ..

Sorry for your loss KC ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Humor me and re-explain where exactly that ship is supposed to be

Your scolling key broken ?

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So... the very first post of this topic, where you set the premise that a naruni ship has crashed... that was off topic?

If you had been talking about that .. then why would you mention this one in an earlier post of yours ?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Then it was "Oh, and even though the ship is undamaged for some reason, the fall was full terminal velocity and the impact of it hitting shook the foundations of chi-town."

Because THAT earlier post was about your specific remark about shaking the foundations.
You said that it was a side conversation, so I let it drop.

But that has jack-all to do with what I've pointed out since then, that the ship would be destroyed according to the rules of the game.

NOTE*
I could not help but notice .. I had to actually go to my post .. to find that you even wrote this above post .. Perhaps .. you should state yourside of the arguement then ---> not delete <--- .. previous posts ..

Seriously, what the heck happened to you?
You used to actually be able to research your ideas, find posts and book stats, and quote things when you needed to.
The problem isn't that I deleted anything, it's that you've gotten really sloppy, but you blame others for your own inadequacies: viewtopic.php?p=2260032#p2260032

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are you trying to say that you think that unlimited ammo would make them shoot farther?
Because otherwise, I don't get why you're talking about that in a section about who out-ranges who.

Are you telling me that the weapons payload will not effect the outcome of the fight ?

Not as far as range, which is what we were talking about here.
Because you claimed that the 2000' range of the Repobots would mean that the SAMs would have to get into range of the repos' guns before they could attack.
Which isn't true.
That's ALL we're talking about here: what you said, and how it isn't true.
Either comment or clarify on that point, or drop it and we can move on to talking about other aspects of the fight.
You know, IF you ever get around to laying out the specifics of your scenario that I (and several others over the course of the thread) have asked for.

Killer Cyborg wrote:There are only 44 spaceships (unless you have some others hidden up your... sleeve). Each one could fire a volley and have that volley fired upon by over a dozen ships, each with more than one set of weapons.

Actually each Fire Spitter has a LADAR that has a range of 1500 miles .. and can track 60 targets .. Once it tracked the Capital ships of the CS .. it can fly under CS radar .. at max speed which is an astonishing Mach 5 .. before the Ship know's its even enrout launch its own missiles .. (+5 to strike, dodge and 2 actions per melee round flying also at mach 3.) Which means if they are also flying under the CS radar .. no way to track the incomming NE missiles .. and no way to fire upon said Missiles .. ergo .. almost an auto-hit ..

If this is part of your overall scenario, go ahead and describe the exact scenario.
The ship crashes, dumps its tanks and repobots, flies to somewhere or other, then has its ships fly around it waiting to counter attack?

Once the scenario is laid out, we can talk about how it would happen.
Until it is, we can't, because there's not enough info to go on.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Would you like me to do the math per round on how fast they would reach the ship ?

Sure, why not?

The standard atmospheric model tells us that the speed of sound, or Mach 1, at sea level is...

So... these guys are flying at sea level?

If you wish to go "By the rules" .. every 50 miles per hour over 30 .. is +1 to dodge ..

Actually, it's -1 to strike, not +1 to dodge.

3,805 mph /50 mph = +76 to dodge .. ontop of the ships normal +5 to dodge .. which grants the ship a total (by the book) bonus of +81 to dodge .. (due to the relative speed its travelling)

Not bad!
Again, though, it's a penalty to strike, not a bonus to dodge. Although it does net out more or less the same.
The ships, though, would be trying to shoot from a moving vehicle (Firing Wild: -6), and shooting while under heavy fire (-6).
Since the ships would be moving after firing their attacks, taking evasive action, and that would be an additional -3 (or more) to strike for attackers.
So that's a -15 strike bonus for the spaceships, and they need an 8 or higher to hit with ranged attacks, so they're going to need a 23 strike roll or higher with bonuses.
Their odds of hitting don't seem great either.

Unless there's a rule somewhere stating that in vehicle combat the bonuses are different somehow (which would make sense, but I can't remember ever seeing it anywhere).

And, of course, the speed rules would apply to missiles too, meaning that the main spaceship would have a HECK of a lot tougher time shooting down missiles than I thought, making it much more likely to be destroyed within the first round of attacks.

Killer Cyborg wrote:No, in fact nobody has told me the book and page number of anything here, except ZeroK regarding the missiles you wrongly claimed were all smart missiles

Wrong .. I never said all of Naruni missiles were smart .. I simply stated .. their mini missiles were smart to which you decided to try to dispute .. I say try .. because Zero clearly showed you even Naruni's Micro missiles are in fact smart ..

What you stated was: "Naruni has the tech to make every single missile they launch a smart missile enabled enough to track and hunt their targets"
Emphasis added, to remind you of your own words.

My response was: And, "Oh, and every missile the Naruni has is probably a smart missile for some reason."

To which YOU said: "How can you doubt anything but this to be the truth when dealing with Phase World tech from one of thee highest tech merchants IN .. the 3 galaxies .."
"Really KC ?"
"Even their "Mini-Missiles" .. are smart missiles .. like it or not .. thats the fact of the matter .. "

What you said there was, "How can you doubt anything but [every missile they launch is a smart missile] to be the truth?"

You can argue that you meant something else, but that's what you said.
And that's all I was disagreeing about, not whether or not they CAN make smart missiles. It's a cinch that they CAN.
The question was always only whether or not they armed this particular set of ships, for some reason, with ONLY smart missiles.

Sorry for your loss KC ..

In my experience, the loser in any online debate or discussion is the one who spends his time trying to say "I win!" or "You Lose!" in every post or so.
It's more a mark of the poster's own desperation and frantic desire of the conversation to be over than anything else.
When a debate is actually won or lost, nobody really needs to announce it; everybody already knows.
(whether they want to admit it or not)

Killer Cyborg wrote:Humor me and re-explain where exactly that ship is supposed to be

Your scolling key broken ?

Nope. But since you frequently get wrong what exactly you have said, I'm not going to spend any time or effort trying to track down something you claim to have said, but are reluctant to repeat for some reason.
I've got better things to do than track down wild geese.
So if you want me to know what you said, you're going to have to do the work yourself (or hope that a third party steps up).

Rorshach wrote:Umm, Lenwen's Mary Sue-of-the-Week versus Big Kev's Flagship Mary Sue? I'm gonna say the CS wins because Kevin S owns the company and Lenwen just buys the books.

Nice post.

I know that if the CS eventually put forth all its military might against this single NE Commodity craft of theirs .. by sheer weight of numbers (as usual) the CS would win ..

But the fact remains ..

That would take up words of 50-75% of their military might to do such a thing ..

EDIT:
Two such ships .. would utterly devastate the entire CS .. on some lvl ..

dragonfett wrote:I was searching through the FAQ's, hoping to find a page and book number for people other than those being targeted by a missile attack and found this little gem, where it is stated that there are rules that allow for dodging missile volleys of 4 or more.

#3: Author: Guest, Posted: 1 Mar 2005 11:27
—
Question: Anybody know the required save vs. flashbang or stun grenade?
Answer: No Save permitted! Either you're immune to the full effect, or only distracted for 1D4 seconds, (that's about one or two melee attacks depending on the characters' APM in the affected area), and the loss of initiative. The rules state that anyone without EBA or protective goggles suffers from the effects of the stun grenade. I'd rule that if a character successfully dodges out of the way, they would also avoid the effects.

Question: a Multi-warhead Fires out 4 MRM's apon reaching its target.
dose this Makea Multi-warhead Missles imposssible to Dodge?
how much damage do they Deal?
a Medium Multi-warhead Deal 5D6x10, which is lower then the combioned Damage for 4 normal Medium Rang Missles.
While the Long Range version Deals 2D4 x 100 which is comparable to 4 Med Raneg Missles?
Answer: It would be considered a volley of four missiles for purposes of dodging. Volleys of four or more missiles CAN BE DODGED!
It's called "Air and Space Combat Rules." You can find them in Ninjas & Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, and TMNT&OS (particularly TMNT Guide to the Universe).
The damage they do is listed under the type of missile.

I reread the air and space combat rules, but didn't see anything that said anything about dodging 4+ guided missiles.
Didn't check the HU version yet, though.

Lenwen wrote:I know that if the CS eventually put forth all its military might against this single NE Commodity craft of theirs .. by sheer weight of numbers (as usual) the CS would win ..

But the fact remains ..

That would take up words of 50-75% of their military might to do such a thing ..

Quite likely, yes.

EDIT:
Two such ships .. would utterly devastate the entire CS .. on some lvl ..

"On some level", yes. Even if the CS won, it would be weakened against other enemies.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:I know that if the CS eventually put forth all its military might against this single NE Commodity craft of theirs .. by sheer weight of numbers (as usual) the CS would win ..

But the fact remains ..

That would take up words of 50-75% of their military might to do such a thing ..

Quite likely, yes.

EDIT:
Two such ships .. would utterly devastate the entire CS .. on some lvl ..

"On some level", yes. Even if the CS won, it would be weakened against other enemies.

How much do you think it would take for the CS to take out two fully stacked Commodity ships ?

Lenwen wrote:How much do you think it would take for the CS to take out two fully stacked Commodity ships ?

How much do you think it would take for the CS to take out one old Rogue Scholar?
The answer depends on what the exact scenario is.

If two fully-stacked commodity ships came down with total war, invasion and domination in mind, out of the blue, that would be pretty devastating. They could whoosh right in on Chi-Town and start blasting and dropping troops.
Depending on what the armaments and durability of the city, the ships could win and everything else would fall pretty quick from there.
ON the other hand, Chi-Town might have enough firepower in its walls to take out both ships. No real well to tell, since it's never been statted out.

But it depends on where they came from, and how, and why, and how much each side knows going into it.

If the spaceships flew to Earth through orbit, they could take out the killer satellites pretty easily, BUT not without a battle big enough that it could be seen on Earth, giving the locals (like the CS) time to go on Red Alert.
Although, really, the CS would likely be on red alert in any case, because they have enough psychics with Clairvoyance that any apocalyptic battle would be predicted to some degree or another.
They might now know completely what was up, but they wouldn't be caught completely with their MDC trousers down either.

If I had the book with the ships' stats and such (for that matter, I can't even find my copy of Phase World or the sourcebook), I could give you a lot more info. Maybe even come up with a way for two ships to win if they were the aggressors.

If two ships just came down and hovered there, though, staying in CS territory (for some reason) and mostly or only making defensive moves, they could be taken out much the same as this fleet.
The main ships wouldn't be the problem; they're too big and too slow.
The smaller ships would be a problem, and the ground troops would be a problem.
Free Quebec would weigh in with the CS, though, and their glitter boy army is pretty darned effective, especially against conventional armies.

Motive, I suppose, would be the main factor. If the Naruni are here to conquer for some reason, that's the worst-case scenario. If they're just there to fix a flat or ask directions, they'd just get the hell out of CS territory as fast as possible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Motive, I suppose, would be the main factor. If the Naruni are here to conquer for some reason, that's the worst-case scenario. If they're just there to fix a flat or ask directions, they'd just get the hell out of CS territory as fast as possible.

By the books .. NE has a motive .. due entirely to the CS's opening salvo to their campaigns .. when they went on a rampage to kill absolutely everyone who even had any NE weaponry (or equipment as well)

And there is a faction within Naruni that wants to utterly decimate by any means the CS for this transgression against their company.

And NE has repossessed entire planets .. taking earth would not be that huge of an issue .. if they so chose .. it would just come down to how long they could hold it.

2 Commodity ships could literally take out 1 Fortress City rather easily .. especially if they came as a surprise attack. 1 ship composed entirely of the Repo-Bots again .. and 1 ship with 10,000 Fire Spitter star fighters ..

I think this force would rather easily overpower anything the CS can bring to bere at a moments notice .. The Repo-Bots are the equal of the CS's BEST robot vehicles .. and nothing in the CS military soilder wise can compete with them.

The Fire Spitter fighters are with out equal by anything in the entire CS military .. and with 10,000 of them .. NE would not only take .. but they would hold air superiority over the CS .

The Motherships themselves could be used as a battleship lvl combatent taking on the CS's entire naval fleets (all of whats left) with just the two of them .. and my opinion, rather take them out easily.

Course this is with a surprise attack using 1 Commodity Ship with 99,400 Repo-Bots .. and 10,000 Fire Spitter fighters and the "Additional Vehicles" as well as the mother ships bringing to bere their weaponry against the CS as well.

What say you ?

It really boils down to how many missle batteries you think the CS has set up and avaible and where.

if your like me, and assume that chi-town has about 3 million missle batteris all by itself, well...

Two things. First is that if Naruni wanted to repossess Rifts Earth, they would send much more than just two Commodity Class ships. The second thing is they would not repossess Rifts Earth because of Lord Splynncryth. If Naruni did even so much as launch an attack against the CS, I honestly think that Lord Splynncryth would mobilize for war, fearing that Naruni Enterprises is trying to take over Rifts Earth.

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Motive, I suppose, would be the main factor. If the Naruni are here to conquer for some reason, that's the worst-case scenario. If they're just there to fix a flat or ask directions, they'd just get the hell out of CS territory as fast as possible.

By the books .. NE has a motive .. due entirely to the CS's opening salvo to their campaigns .. when they went on a rampage to kill absolutely everyone who even had any NE weaponry (or equipment as well)

Sure, but their decisions are ultimately based on what's profitable, not on revenge.

And there is a faction within Naruni that wants to utterly decimate by any means the CS for this transgression against their company.

"Decimate" means "reduce by 1/10th."

And NE has repossessed entire planets .. taking earth would not be that huge of an issue .. if they so chose .. it would just come down to how long they could hold it.

Agreed, for the most part.
The sticking point wouldn't be the CS, it would be Atlantis.

2 Commodity ships could literally take out 1 Fortress City rather easily .. especially if they came as a surprise attack. 1 ship composed entirely of the Repo-Bots again .. and 1 ship with 10,000 Fire Spitter star fighters ..

Most likely, yes.
But since the fortress cities have never been statted out, we can't say for certain.
For all we know, when Kev finally writes them up they might have millions of MDC and 50 mile ranged cannons that inflict gigadamage.

I think this force would rather easily overpower anything the CS can bring to bere at a moments notice .. The Repo-Bots are the equal of the CS's BEST robot vehicles .. and nothing in the CS military soilder wise can compete with them.

The Fire Spitter fighters are with out equal by anything in the entire CS military .. and with 10,000 of them .. NE would not only take .. but they would hold air superiority over the CS .

Sounds about right.

The Motherships themselves could be used as a battleship lvl combatent taking on the CS's entire naval fleets (all of whats left) with just the two of them .. and my opinion, rather take them out easily.

I think I have to disagree here.
The Ships only have 1 gun with any real range, the rest would be missile launchers, and missiles are easier to defend against than energy weapons.
Plus, the CS Navy has quite a few subs and other underwater craft, and I don't think that the big ships would go very fast underwater.

Course this is with a surprise attack using 1 Commodity Ship with 99,400 Repo-Bots .. and 10,000 Fire Spitter fighters and the "Additional Vehicles" as well as the mother ships bringing to bere their weaponry against the CS as well.

What say you ?

The 10k Spitfires would be the most deadly, and would more than likely assure victory against the CS.
But it would also probably get Splynncrth's attention.

dragonfett wrote:If Naruni did even so much as launch an attack against the CS, I honestly think that Lord Splynncryth would mobilize for war, fearing that Naruni Enterprises is trying to take over Rifts Earth.

I do not think Lord Splynn would defend the CS .. from anything ..

He has never defended even his Allies .. (Phoenix Empire) from assaults or anything of that nature ..

With that in mind .. I do not think Atlantis would defend the Coalition .. from anything/anyone ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, but their decisions are ultimately based on what's profitable, not on revenge.

Sorry Kc .. but the fact of the matter is .. There is a faction that wants Revenge more .. then even profits ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:The Motherships themselves could be used as a battleship lvl combatent taking on the CS's entire naval fleets (all of whats left) with just the two of them .. and my opinion, rather take them out easily.

I think I have to disagree here.
The Ships only have 1 gun with any real range, the rest would be missile launchers, and missiles are easier to defend against than energy weapons.
Plus, the CS Navy has quite a few subs and other underwater craft, and I don't think that the big ships would go very fast underwater.

The Big ships would assuredly travel faster in water .. by multiple factors of ten .. then anything in the CS military.

How many Subs does the CS have ?

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, but their decisions are ultimately based on what's profitable, not on revenge.

Sorry Kc .. but the fact of the matter is .. There is a faction that wants Revenge more .. then even profits ..

Faction, yes.
I was discussing the Naruni overall.
Unless this faction seizes control, any rogue action on their part would (I imagine) be likely to be stopped or interfered with by the Naruni as bad business.

The Big ships would assuredly travel faster in water .. by multiple factors of ten .. then anything in the CS military.

What's it's listed water speed?

How many Subs does the CS have ?

Not a heck of a lot of the big subs, but those are some of their most dangerous vessels.
Hundreds of mini-subs.
25 submersible stealth patrol boats
Countless suits of underwater power armor.
Hundreds of Sea-Spider walkers.

Nothing that would pose a huge threat to the Naruni (except for the big subs), but stuff that would take quite some time to root out and destroy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, but their decisions are ultimately based on what's profitable, not on revenge.

Sorry Kc .. but the fact of the matter is .. There is a faction that wants Revenge more .. then even profits ..

A)- Faction, yes.
I was discussing the Naruni overall.
Unless this faction seizes control, any rogue action on their part would (I imagine) be likely to be stopped or interfered with by the Naruni as bad business.

The Big ships would assuredly travel faster in water .. by multiple factors of ten .. then anything in the CS military.

B) - What's it's listed water speed?

How many Subs does the CS have ?

Not a heck of a lot of the big subs, but those are some of their most dangerous vessels.
Hundreds of mini-subs.
25 submersible stealth patrol boats
Countless suits of underwater power armor.
Hundreds of Sea-Spider walkers.

C) - Nothing that would pose a huge threat to the Naruni (except for the big subs), but stuff that would take quite some time to root out and destroy.

A) - The Naruni at its heart are as you say they are. But there is a faction that has been doing exactly the opposite of what the company wants it to .. selling weapon systems to anyone who is going to use them against the CS at up to 20-30% off just so they can mess with the CS.

They have not yet sent a force to Rifts earth .. Yet ..

B) - It has no listed Water speed. But it is fully trans-atmospheric. Its top speed in an atmosphere is mach 2.

Saying that it has the capability to travel multiple factors of ten faster then any water vessel in the CS was my opinion. Not a stated fact.

C) - Agreed.

Lenwen wrote:A) - The Naruni at its heart are as you say they are. But there is a faction that has been doing exactly the opposite of what the company wants it to .. selling weapon systems to anyone who is going to use them against the CS at up to 20-30% off just so they can mess with the CS.

They have not yet sent a force to Rifts earth .. Yet ..

And if they did, they might be stopped by their own people.
Or they might not, and such an attack as you describe could actually happen.

I just don't think it's that likely of a scenario.
(which doesn't mean that it's not worth discussing)

B) - It has no listed Water speed. But it is fully trans-atmospheric. Its top speed in an atmosphere is mach 2.

Saying that it has the capability to travel multiple factors of ten faster then any water vessel in the CS was my opinion. Not a stated fact.

Noted.

I do not think Lord Splynn would defend the CS .. from anything ..

He has never defended even his Allies .. (Phoenix Empire) from assaults or anything of that nature ..

With that in mind .. I do not think Atlantis would defend the Coalition .. from anything/anyone ..

I think you misunderstood what I was meaning because of the way that I had worded it. You're right in that he does not care about the CS, but he would be more worried about NE trying to repossess Rifts Earth. He would let the Coalition and the NE forces duke it out, and once the fighting is done will finish off the victor (he will make sure that he has plenty of troops just in the very like case that NE comes out on top). Did I make myself more clear?

dragonfett wrote:

I do not think Lord Splynn would defend the CS .. from anything ..

He has never defended even his Allies .. (Phoenix Empire) from assaults or anything of that nature ..

With that in mind .. I do not think Atlantis would defend the Coalition .. from anything/anyone ..

I think you misunderstood what I was meaning because of the way that I had worded it. You're right in that he does not care about the CS, but he would be more worried about NE trying to repossess Rifts Earth. He would let the Coalition and the NE forces duke it out, and once the fighting is done will finish off the victor (he will make sure that he has plenty of troops just in the very like case that NE comes out on top). Did I make myself more clear?

Yes this makes more sense. The way you had it worded prior .. made it seem like Lord Splynn was the CS protector .. Rather then just making sure that NE does not take over the earth ..

Lenwen wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

I do not think Lord Splynn would defend the CS .. from anything ..

He has never defended even his Allies .. (Phoenix Empire) from assaults or anything of that nature ..

With that in mind .. I do not think Atlantis would defend the Coalition .. from anything/anyone ..

I think you misunderstood what I was meaning because of the way that I had worded it. You're right in that he does not care about the CS, but he would be more worried about NE trying to repossess Rifts Earth. He would let the Coalition and the NE forces duke it out, and once the fighting is done will finish off the victor (he will make sure that he has plenty of troops just in the very like case that NE comes out on top). Did I make myself more clear?

Yes this makes more sense. The way you had it worded prior .. made it seem like Lord Splynn was the CS protector .. Rather then just making sure that NE does not take over the earth ..

I think he'd send in snipers to take pot shots at the Naruni. He doesn't consider the CS a big threat and heck they're even a good resource. If they are gone that means less humans to protect other humans from other monsters. So that means less humans to enslave. Plus the Naruni and Splugorth are such fierce competitors that he wouldn't want them to get a beach head... one representative is bad enough.