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Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:48 am**

Balabanto wrote:My point is that if some guy wants to play a juicer, and you run the game FAIRLY, he's going to be running around doing something every day while other people take downtime. When I used to do this, Juicers wanted every day roleplayed out and everyone else was like "Could we skip three weeks, please?" Juicer: But, but, but...

And so on. While life isn't fair, the GM does have to be fair to his players, and the eight year burnout effect lends itself perfectly to certain types of gaming styles. However, the problem with this is:

It doesn't matter WHO in the group plays the juicer. This is INEVITABLY what happens. The most important thing in roleplaying games is still having fun, and this drawback makes it fairly hard for groups who don't enjoy day by day roleplaying to have fun. At one point in my Rifts game, the game got so bolluxed up by this that it took SIX MONTHS to roleplay THREE DAYS! That's crazy. I had plots I wanted to run. Some characters couldn't do ANYTHING because they were spending entire sessions doing their exercises, etc, while the Juicers ran around and did stuff. And in those three game days, about 4 PC's died from doing those things. This was highly un-fun.

That comes from a type of play style...
I have played Juicers who while hyper and needing to "do stuff" every day did not require the entire party to wait on me...
If the story required us to skip ahead in time... I would give a brief statement as what my character did durring the down time.
Examples: HU played a juicer named Rush... while the party spent days doing research (that would bore the hell out of Rush) I stated that Rush spent that time foiling petty crimes (muggings, assaults, robberies, etc...)
In Rifts I have Suicide...
At one point we needed to time skip an entire month...
I simply stated that Suicide spent that time assisting the local farmers with manual labor (digging a well, building a barn, etc...)

the players who want to play out the day in a life style are just being selfish and that is the responsibility of the GM to address through discourse.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:30 am**

Balabanto wrote:My point is that if some guy wants to play a juicer, and you run the game FAIRLY, he's going to be running around doing something every day while other people take downtime. When I used to do this, Juicers wanted every day roleplayed out and everyone else was like "Could we skip three weeks, please?" Juicer: But, but, but...

And so on. While life isn't fair, the GM does have to be fair to his players, and the eight year burnout effect lends itself perfectly to certain types of gaming styles. However, the problem with this is:

It doesn't matter WHO in the group plays the juicer. This is INEVITABLY what happens. The most important thing in roleplaying games is still having fun, and this drawback makes it fairly hard for groups who don't enjoy day by day roleplaying to have fun. At one point in my Rifts game, the game got so bolluxed up by this that it took SIX MONTHS to roleplay THREE DAYS! That's crazy. I had plots I wanted to run. Some characters couldn't do ANYTHING because they were spending entire sessions doing their exercises, etc, while the Juicers ran around and did stuff. And in those three game days, about 4 PC's died from doing those things. This was highly un-fun.

Ya i have to agree with mr. magecraft there. You have to control your group. So the juicer misses 3 weeks. Well just talk to the player and ask him, what kind of things would you have liked to been doing during this time, give him some credits, maybe ban him from a couple local bars for causing shat, and tell him Kristo the Cranky wants to be reimbursed for "that incident".

Same for me, is i have a Phaeton Juicer named Vector, he flies the Icarus. The next adv jumped 1 week ahead. So i told the GM that during that time i went out raiding and tried to shoot down an entire patrol of 6 samus by myself but i ran out of missiles before that happened, so then i decided to race them, but only the super samas lead could stay up but not really, so i flew circles around him and then pissed off. So then i went back to Kings to get more missiles, but had to stop at 5 of the local bars to have some drinks and chics, then local merc leader didn't like his i got with his girl and there was going to be guns and death at that bar, but it was decided we would race hoverbikes for big ego gains, in the end i left with the girl only to throw her to the curb later that night, then steal that same merc leaders peace of shat Samson PA that i entered a gladiator match against 5 other PA and it got mostly destroyed in the process but won and then the merc showed up with his crew all pissed, so they chased me out of town on my icarus where i proceeded to start right back over at finding a CS patrol to play with.

That gives me the satisfaction of being active without having to waste game time and players time to go thru that, got a bit of rp out of the process which is sure to show up in the current adv a bit and ya, everyone is happy as that only took me 5 min of gms time to say.

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:33 am**

Nether wrote:
Balabanto wrote:My point is that if some guy wants to play a juicer, and you run the game FAIRLY, he's going to be running around doing something every day while other people take downtime. When I used to do this, Juicers wanted every day roleplayed out and everyone else was like "Could we skip three weeks, please?" Juicer: But, but, but...

And so on. While life isn't fair, the GM does have to be fair to his players, and the eight year burnout effect lends itself perfectly to certain types of gaming styles. However, the problem with this is:

It doesn't matter WHO in the group plays the juicer. This is INEVITABLY what happens. The most important thing in roleplaying games is still having fun, and this drawback makes it fairly hard for groups who don't enjoy day by day roleplaying to have fun. At one point in my Rifts game, the game got so bolluxed up by this that it took SIX MONTHS to roleplay THREE DAYS! That's crazy. I had plots I wanted to run. Some characters couldn't do ANYTHING because they were spending entire sessions doing their exercises, etc, while the Juicers ran around and did stuff. And in those three game days, about 4 PC's died from doing those things. This was highly un-fun.

Ya i have to agree with mr. magecraft there. You have to control your group. So the juicer misses 3 weeks. Well just talk to the player and ask him, what kind of things would you have liked to been doing during this time, give him some credits, maybe ban him from a couple local bars for causing shat, and tell him Kristo the Cranky wants to be reimbursed for "that incident".

Same for me, is i have a Phaeton Juicer named Vector, he flies the Icarus. The next adv jumped 1 week ahead. So i told the GM that during that time i went out raiding and tried to shoot down an entire patrol of 6 samus by myself but i ran out of missiles before that happened, so then i decided to race them, but only the super samas lead could stay up but not really, so i flew circles around him and then pissed off. So then i went back to Kings to get more missiles, but had to stop at 5 of the local bars to have some drinks and chics, then local merc leader didn't like his i got with his girl and there was going to be guns and death at that bar, but it was decided we would race hoverbikes for big ego gains, in the end i left with the girl only to throw her to the curb later that night, then steal that same merc leaders peace of shat Samson PA that i entered a gladiator match against 5 other PA and it got mostly destroyed in the process but won and then the merc showed up with his crew all pissed, so they chased me out of town on my icarus where i proceeded to start right back over at finding a CS patrol to play with.

That gives me the satisfaction of being active without having to waste game time and players time to go thru that, got a bit of rp out of the process which is sure to show up in the current adv a bit and ya, everyone is happy as that only took me 5 min of gms time to say.

That has nothing to do with group control. Your GM was nice to not make you play out the combat with the SAMASes (Which should have ended badly.), Your GM mishandled Kingsdale completely. Just because it's a town filled with Juicers doesn't mean that this sort of stuff doesn't attract all sorts of unwelcome attention and enemies, and you got a free pass on all kinds of dangerous situations that should require rolling initiative.

There's a big difference between passing the time and automatically declaring that a PC survives a bunch of dangerous situations which can (And rightfully should have) sent the PC back to chargen. In addition to 'controlling' the players, players also need to control themselves. Clearly, you didn't do that either.

When I run, actions have consequences. That's why I don't allow that sort of stuff to be free.

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:08 pm**

Balabanto wrote:
Nether wrote:
Balabanto wrote:My point is that if some guy wants to play a juicer, and you run the game FAIRLY, he's going to be running around doing something every day while other people take downtime. When I used to do this, Juicers wanted every day roleplayed out and everyone else was like "Could we skip three weeks, please?" Juicer: But, but, but...

And so on. While life isn't fair, the GM does have to be fair to his players, and the eight year burnout effect lends itself perfectly to certain types of gaming styles. However, the problem with this is:

It doesn't matter WHO in the group plays the juicer. This is INEVITABLY what happens. The most important thing in roleplaying games is still having fun, and this drawback makes it fairly hard for groups who don't enjoy day by day roleplaying to have fun. At one point in my Rifts game, the game got so bolluxed up by this that it took SIX MONTHS to roleplay THREE DAYS! That's crazy. I had plots I wanted to run. Some characters couldn't do ANYTHING because they were spending entire sessions doing their exercises, etc, while the Juicers ran around and did stuff. And in those three game days, about 4 PC's died from doing those things. This was highly un-fun.

Ya i have to agree with mr. magecraft there. You have to control your group. So the juicer misses 3 weeks. Well just talk to the player and ask him, what kind of things would you have liked to been doing during this time, give him some credits, maybe ban him from a couple local bars for causing shat, and tell him Kristo the Cranky wants to be reimbursed for "that incident".

Same for me, is i have a Phaeton Juicer named Vector, he flies the Icarus. The next adv jumped 1 week ahead. So i told the GM that during that time i went out raiding and tried to shoot down an entire patrol of 6 samus by myself but i ran out of missiles before that happened, so then i decided to race them, but only the super samas lead could stay up but not really, so i flew circles around him and then pissed off. So then i went back to Kings to get more missiles, but had to stop at 5 of the local bars to have some drinks and chics, then local merc leader didn't like his i got with his girl and there was going to be guns and death at that bar, but it was decided we would race hoverbikes for big ego gains, in the end i left with the girl only to throw her to the curb later that night, then steal that same merc leaders peace of shat Samson PA that i entered a gladiator match against 5 other PA and it got mostly destroyed in the process but won and then the merc showed up with his crew all pissed, so they chased me out of town on my icarus where i proceeded to start right back over at finding a CS patrol to play with.

That gives me the satisfaction of being active without having to waste game time and players time to go thru that, got a bit of rp out of the process which is sure to show up in the current adv a bit and ya, everyone is happy as that only took me 5 min of gms time to say.

That has nothing to do with group control. Your GM was nice to not make you play out the combat with the SAMASes (Which should have ended badly.), Your GM mishandled Kingsdale completely. Just because it's a town filled with Juicers doesn't mean that this sort of stuff doesn't attract all sorts of unwelcome attention and enemies, and you got a free pass on all kinds of dangerous situations that should require rolling initiative.

There's a big difference between passing the time and automatically declaring that a PC survives a bunch of dangerous situations which can (And rightfully should have) sent the PC back to chargen. In addition to 'controlling' the players, players also need to control themselves. Clearly, you didn't do that either.

When I run, actions have consequences. That's why I don't allow that sort of stuff to be free.

It has everything with group control, but the point is being lost on you.

By your response i can see you were just as much of the problem (as gm) as the player was for the 3 in game days taking 6 months. I don't say this rudely or as a snide remark, just my observation.

So your game story and players goals except one should jump 3 weeks ahead by your example.

1. you as the gm need to say 3 weeks of game time is going to pass, what would everyone like to be doing.

2. you read my response and the first thing that comes to your mind is how plausible is my description of time passing, and how i need rolls to perform everything in order to make sure it is by the mechanics instead of how that description fits my character theme, makes for interesting roleplaying elements to add in to the next portion of adventure and you require it to be played out. So unless i tell the gm about how i do something mundane like digging holes, that isn't my character (hence this issue) and has 0 effect on the game mechanics as you will be like give me a ps strength roll to see if you can dig that hole and doing it for 3 weeks you can displace this much earth according to the book ext ext.
It is called roleplaying, not rollplaying.

3. My Phaeton has auto dodge and superior bonuses to the samas pilots who's PP doesn't compete with mine. So it "is" plausible. It also fits the bill of crazy ass juicers. There is plenty examples of real life pilots that have by themselves or with one other turned into a much larger group of oncoming enemies instead of running and have 'won'. The History channel show about dog fighters from all era's and thier true stories shows you this. (includes an example with jet pilot)

4. Roleplaying vs Rollplaying. I don't know what Kingsdale you have read about but you make it sound like the Juicer city is all tame and the city is like, hey guys, i know your juicers but that isn't a reason to be rowdie or be party animals. Lets not forget that CS doesn't look kindly on all your Juicer sports so we have decided to cancel all of them. In fact, the CS doesn't like Juicers that aren't enlisted in thier military so i am going to have to ask you all to vacate the premeses or there will be jail time and turned over to the CS. That is exactly how it made me feel by just reading your little response about Kingsdale.

If you don't overall agree with my quick response to move the game on or your players, then as the gm you need to control that and find the middle ground so that you AREN'T playing thru the 3 weeks. So if i was the player, then compromise and adjust the story to what is acceptable to both of you and then move on. But this will require you to ignore the fact that there will most definately be situations that would have required rolls in there that you will have to just ignore and roleplay it out.

Bottom line is if i was the gm in that game, 3 weeks will be passing no matter what, it's just a simple matter of what the players would have liked to be doing during it then adventure continues. Btw i gm more than i am player, but i do get to do both.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:16 pm**

TechnoGothic wrote:Also, it would be interesting if their was no chance of detox for juicers.
Once you undergo the Chemical Enhancement Augementation process, your a hopeless drugg addict who will die without your drugs. Would make getting a resupply much more interesting and a good Story Hook.

The drugs to refill the bio comp are insanely expensive as is. That has been a much bigger balancing factor in my games then anything else.

Also this would explain why everyone would not be a juicer....its freaken expensive and your going to spend ever moment of your waking life trying to earn money to replace the drugs, Unless your working for a government or such that provides them for you.

Besides the juicer classes are not that powerful especially not compared to the other classes. Like the cyber knight

The time has only run out once and the player was honest about it or I would have never have known.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:19 pm**

Boatmonger wrote:The Juicer with no downsides doesn't seem to fit with the Rifts setting. In Rifts, life is a struggle against impossible odds and the solutions to level those odds usually have the same ending, death. Heroes Unlimited is modeled after comic book universes where the bad guys go to jail and death is less of a factor. If we take away the penalties of being a Juicer then we take away what makes them different from the experimental Super Soldiers of Heroes Unlimited and in turn take away from Rifts what makes it Rifts.

Imagine a world that is so hard to live in and so dangerous that people are willing to take a short life over a quick death and you have Rifts. We can argue game mechanics and balance issues until we are blue in the face but the real loss is to the setting than anything else.

You're kind of missing the fact that many Juicers aren't willing and are forced into being Juicers and because it costs to detox if they do get free they frequently can't save up the funds to undergo life-saving detox. Plus they're given reason to feel like they're trapped without hope so might as well stop even trying.

As far as the Rifts setting goes, it's no more a harsh struggle than any other post-Apocalyptic setting and there's little reason to consider the death sentence as something that actually is special and just can't be done away with instead of what it is, a terrible penalty no other class or race has. You're definitely NOT going to have a loss to the setting if Juicers weren't condemned to an early death and had a regular life-span.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:17 am**

Nightmask wrote:
Boatmonger wrote:The Juicer with no downsides doesn't seem to fit with the Rifts setting. In Rifts, life is a struggle against impossible odds and the solutions to level those odds usually have the same ending, death. Heroes Unlimited is modeled after comic book universes where the bad guys go to jail and death is less of a factor. If we take away the penalties of being a Juicer then we take away what makes them different from the experimental Super Soldiers of Heroes Unlimited and in turn take away from Rifts what makes it Rifts.

Imagine a world that is so hard to live in and so dangerous that people are willing to take a short life over a quick death and you have Rifts. We can argue game mechanics and balance issues until we are blue in the face but the real loss is to the setting than anything else.

You're kind of missing the fact that many Juicers aren't willing and are forced into being Juicers and because it costs to detox if they do get free they frequently can't save up the funds to undergo life-saving detox. Plus they're given reason to feel like they're trapped without hope so might as well stop even trying.

I don't think he's missing that; he's just talking about the OTHER kind of Juicer.
You know, the kind that fits the description that he gave.

You're definitely NOT going to have a loss to the setting if Juicers weren't condemned to an early death and had a regular life-span.

So far, you're in the minority with that opinion.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:47 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Boatmonger wrote:The Juicer with no downsides doesn't seem to fit with the Rifts setting. In Rifts, life is a struggle against impossible odds and the solutions to level those odds usually have the same ending, death. Heroes Unlimited is modeled after comic book universes where the bad guys go to jail and death is less of a factor. If we take away the penalties of being a Juicer then we take away what makes them different from the experimental Super Soldiers of Heroes Unlimited and in turn take away from Rifts what makes it Rifts.

Imagine a world that is so hard to live in and so dangerous that people are willing to take a short life over a quick death and you have Rifts. We can argue game mechanics and balance issues until we are blue in the face but the real loss is to the setting than anything else.

You're kind of missing the fact that many Juicers aren't willing and are forced into being Juicers and because it costs to detox if they do get free they frequently can't save up the funds to undergo life-saving detox. Plus they're given reason to feel like they're trapped without hope so might as well stop even trying.

I don't think he's missing that; he's just talking about the OTHER kind of Juicer.
You know, the kind that fits the description that he gave.

You're definitely NOT going to have a loss to the setting if Juicers weren't condemned to an early death and had a regular life-span.

So far, you're in the minority with that opinion.

If he would have accepted my proposed alternate Juicer. I might be inclined to believe he is arguing for something other than power with out a price...

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:50 am**

Damian Magecraft wrote:If he would have accepted my proposed alternate Juicer. I might be inclined to believe he is arguing for something other than power with out a price...

Too bad that that argument fails given just about every OCC has power without price so the adamant insistence that the power in this case must have a price really falls short of the mark. Demanding a price and dismissing suggestions to the contrary seems to be a rigid effort to force a particular idea of what a character ought to be on someone, and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:55 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Boatmonger wrote:The Juicer with no downsides doesn't seem to fit with the Rifts setting. In Rifts, life is a struggle against impossible odds and the solutions to level those odds usually have the same ending, death. Heroes Unlimited is modeled after comic book universes where the bad guys go to jail and death is less of a factor. If we take away the penalties of being a Juicer then we take away what makes them different from the experimental Super Soldiers of Heroes Unlimited and in turn take away from Rifts what makes it Rifts.

Imagine a world that is so hard to live in and so dangerous that people are willing to take a short life over a quick death and you have Rifts. We can argue game mechanics and balance issues until we are blue in the face but the real loss is to the setting than anything else.

You're kind of missing the fact that many Juicers aren't willing and are forced into being Juicers and because it costs to detox if they do get free they frequently can't save up the funds to undergo life-saving detox. Plus they're given reason to feel like they're trapped without hope so might as well stop even trying.

I don't think he's missing that; he's just talking about the OTHER kind of Juicer.
You know, the kind that fits the description that he gave.

Too bad you're missing how he uses Juicer to refer to all Juicers and describing it as if they're all willing and just suicide monkeys out for quick power and a quicker death.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're definitely NOT going to have a loss to the setting if Juicers weren't condemned to an early death and had a regular life-span.

So far, you're in the minority with that opinion.

Which in no way invalidates it, majority does not rule nor is the majority inherently right quite often it's dead wrong. The one who decides the personality and motivations of a PC should be the player, not the GM, yet that's not what we see when it's dictated that all Juicers must have a limited range of personality and motivation and the player isn't allowed to question or reject those restrictions.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:05 pm**

the juicer process, iirc, costs about 250k credits where it is available. most kingdoms that enlist juicers consider them to have paid off that debt after 2-3 years as a juicer.

conclusion: no juicer is going to feel trapped and unable to make money unless they are as dumb as a rock. if an experienced juicer showed up and said "hey, i'll work for you for two years, and then you owe me detox treatments", to *any* of those nations, they'll probably be falling over themselves to get him signed up. the only reason to feel trapped is the fact that going back to being unaugmented is unthinkable to them, and THAT is only a problem if they have a reason to even consider detoxing; if there are no drawbacks, there would be no need to make a decision, they would all just keep on being juicers.

and your comments about slave juicers only go to show just how much it doesn't fit to remove the downside. if there was no threat of death (or at least *some* downside), you'd have to be an idiot to use juicer augmentation on a slave, because you would be too busy putting it into the rich people. the people being turned into slave juicers would in fact be getting the kinds of augmentation that would be expected only in the most socially and financially elite people in the world.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:41 pm**

Nightmask wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:44 pm**

Shark_Force wrote:the juicer process, iirc, costs about 250k credits where it is available. most kingdoms that enlist juicers consider them to have paid off that debt after 2-3 years as a juicer.

conclusion: no juicer is going to feel trapped and unable to make money unless they are as dumb as a rock. if an experienced juicer showed up and said "hey, i'll work for you for two years, and then you owe me detox treatments", to *any* of those nations, they'll probably be falling over themselves to get him signed up. the only reason to feel trapped is the fact that going back to being unaugmented is unthinkable to them, and THAT is only a problem if they have a reason to even consider detoxing; if there are no drawbacks, there would be no need to make a decision, they would all just keep on being juicers.

and your comments about slave juicers only go to show just how much it doesn't fit to remove the downside. if there was no threat of death (or at least *some* downside), you'd have to be an idiot to use juicer augmentation on a slave, because you would be too busy putting it into the rich people. the people being turned into slave juicers would in fact be getting the kinds of augmentation that would be expected only in the most socially and financially elite people in the world.

Check Atlantis, plenty of super-powered slaves around there, so the idea that one would have to be an idiot to augment a slave fails. Or look at the Megaversal Legion, a former slave army with extremely powerful bionics and equipment. They were also kept under control with brain bombs that could easily vaporize the brains of disobedient slaves and not that difficult to have similar controls on other slaves. Rich people also wouldn't be rushing to be Juicers either, the mindset of the rich is how it's beneath them to be so physical and wealthy people who embrace that kind of stuff are aberrant and in the minority. The social and financial elite don't turn themselves into superstrong/fast killing machines, they have that money to pay others to go out and do that for them.

Also the actual books where you see Juicers mentioned they refer to how many feel trapped in it, the female leaders of the Valkyrie Juicer mercenary group are explicitly noted as having had their wealth stolen that they'd banked for their retirement and detoxing and felt it impossible to acquire what they needed in the time that they had left to detox and retire once again. It has nothing to be with being too 'stupid' to put back the funds, 5-8 years is not that much time to garner wealth particularly considering financial opportunities aren't necessarily that great.

A stingy GM could see your party encountering things like Gene Starwind from Outlaw Star, any windfalls promptly eaten by the expenses to maintain the group's ship and see them properly fed and supplied and even then he was almost always in debt. So a Juicer in a group of PC can easily find himself NEVER in the position to actually save back money to attempt to detox (which isn't certain and every year you get in takes roughly TEN off your lifespan) because the money is going into maintaining and upgrading gear and replacing lost materials and what little profit never enough to pay for detoxing. The GM could easily have that idea that Juicer=early death so stuck in his head like so many here seem to have that he might even fudge things to ensure the PC never can detox because 'well that's how it's supposed to be for Juicers'.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:45 pm**

Mack wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

I've seen little price for those OCC and many others, certainly nothing as extreme as a certain death in less than 8 years.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:02 pm**

Mack wrote:
Nightmask wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

The problem there is Mack he does not see it that way... Cause the downsides are all ROLE related instead of ROLL related like the so called "death sentence."

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:11 pm**

Nightmask wrote:
Mack wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

I've seen little price for those OCC and many others, certainly nothing as extreme as a certain death in less than 8 years.

Really?
How Bad ass is that GB with out his Power Armor?
LLW? you do not consider a standing shoot to kill order in the Largest Human dominated area of North America that high a price? (You really need to play in the games I have then...)
Dragon? Hatching Dragons have little or no downsides? Its a freaking BABY! dragon not a full grown adult (Lacks all of that power at low levels dude.)

your "its unfair" is whats falling on deaf ears there buddy...
Come back with a real argument or get labeled something you are insisting you are not.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:18 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Mack wrote:
Nightmask wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

The problem there is Mack he does not see it that way... Cause the downsides are all ROLE related instead of ROLL related like the so called "death sentence."

Gee, so you totally miss how ROLE-related that ACTUAL death sentence is do you? Since 'Hey you're going to die in just 5-8 years instead of 50-80 years' certainly sounds like a very real death sentence in a very ROLE-related fashion, since everyone including yourself insists it's essential to the ROLE-play of the character so don't go trying to backtrack and contradict yourself now saying how it's not having any impact on the ROLE-play of the character in question. You can't insist it both is essential to the character for ROLE-playing it and then turn right around and dismiss it as a phantom limitation that's just ROLL-related and has no impact on the ROLE-play of the character at all.

So the real problem seems to be the the insistence that a player is only supposed to be able to ROLE-play the character one way and wanting to play it another way is treated as a heresy and dismissed falsely as a ROLL-play complaint rather than what it actually is. I'm quite within my rights to complain about what is a penalty imposed on a character that's excessive compared to what other characters have to deal with, one that pigeon-holes the character into a limited range of options for playing it.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:27 pm**

Damian Magecraft wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mack wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote: and why should a Juicer have to tolerate that when the LLW, Glitter Boy Pilot, or Dragon PC doesn't have to?

Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

I've seen little price for those OCC and many others, certainly nothing as extreme as a certain death in less than 8 years.
Really?
How Bad ass is that GB with out his Power Armor?
LLW? you do not consider a standing shoot to kill order in the Largest Human dominated area of North America that high a price? (You really need to play in the games I have then...)
Dragon? Hatching Dragons have little or no downsides? Its a freaking BABY! dragon not a full grown adult (Lacks all of that power at low levels dude.)

your "its unfair" is whats falling on deaf ears there buddy...
Come back with a real argument or get labeled something you are insisting you are not.

Well it's obvious how deaf the ears are, since they clearly dismiss valid and real arguments because they contradict the comfortable little box you want to keep things limited to.

Glitter Boy out of his armor? Unless the GM's being an @$$ or the player does something really stupid to warrant it he's going to have the opportunity to get into his armor and go to town on anyone attacking, he's not going to get one-shot killed by the GM stepping out to take a bathroom break. So he's going to have his chance to be BadAss.

LLW's and the CS's hatred of such? They don't walk around with a big sign going 'here I am I'm a magic user!', if they don't use a spell around a CS soldier and/or there aren't any Dog Boys around to detect them they're fairly safe, and there's a lot more to North America than the area dominated by the CS and even then the odds of being encountered and detected are pretty low, unlike the Juicer burn-out penalties.

Dragon Hatchling? Sure it's a baby but it's a baby DRAGON, it's still a formidable MDC creature with the option of learning magic if there's a LLW around to teach it. They aren't helpless infants by any stretch of the imagination.

So why not come back with a real argument rather than 'I just think it should be that way and won't consider anything to the contrary other than to dismiss it out of hand and with contempt'. I won't hold my breath waiting though, and certainly won't expect any kind of reasonable response.

Posted: **Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:38 pm**

Nightmask wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't think he's missing that; he's just talking about the OTHER kind of Juicer.
You know, the kind that fits the description that he gave.

Too bad you're missing how he uses Juicer to refer to all Juicers and describing it as if they're all willing and just suicide monkeys out for quick power and a quicker death.

There are two ways in which to read his post.
The first way, he's only describing the juicers that match his description.
The second way, he's describing juicers that don't match his description.

Any particular reason why you choose the second?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're definitely NOT going to have a loss to the setting if Juicers weren't condemned to an early death and had a regular life-span.

So far, you're in the minority with that opinion.

Which in no way invalidates it

But it does mean that you're going to have to bring something to the table other than just restating your premise repeatedly, IF you want anybody else to see where you're coming from.

The one who decides the personality and motivations of a PC should be the player, not the GM, yet that's not what we see when it's dictated that all Juicers must have a limited range of personality and motivation and the player isn't allowed to question or reject those restrictions.

What limit are you talking about?

Posted: **Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:00 am**

Nightmask wrote: Each of those has a price unique to itself. Just as the Juicer has a price.

How Bad ass is that GB with out his Power Armor?
LLW? you do not consider a standing shoot to kill order in the Largest Human dominated area of North America that high a price? (You really need to play in the games I have then...)
Dragon? Hatching Dragons have little or no downsides? Its a freaking BABY! dragon not a full grown adult (Lacks all of that power at low levels dude.)

your "its unfair" is whats falling on deaf ears there buddy...
Come back with a real argument or get labeled something you are insisting you are not.

Well it's obvious how deaf the ears are, since they clearly dismiss valid and real arguments because they contradict the comfortable little box you want to keep things limited to.

Glitter Boy out of his armor? Unless the GM's being an @$$ or the player does something really stupid to warrant it he's going to have the opportunity to get into his armor and go to town on anyone attacking, he's not going to get one-shot killed by the GM stepping out to take a bathroom break. So he's going to have his chance to be BadAss.

LLW's and the CS's hatred of such? They don't walk around with a big sign going 'here I am I'm a magic user!', if they don't use a spell around a CS soldier and/or there aren't any Dog Boys around to detect them they're fairly safe, and there's a lot more to North America than the area dominated by the CS and even then the odds of being encountered and detected are pretty low, unlike the Juicer burn-out penalties.

Dragon Hatchling? Sure it's a baby but it's a baby DRAGON, it's still a formidable MDC creature with the option of learning magic if there's a LLW around to teach it. They aren't helpless infants by any stretch of the imagination.[/qoute]

So why not come back with a real argument rather than 'I just think it should be that way and won't consider anything to the contrary other than to dismiss it out of hand and with contempt'. I won't hold my breath waiting though, and certainly won't expect any kind of reasonable response.[/quote]
there is a a big neon sign for the Magic User its called a CS Patrol of Dog Boys and Their Psystalker handler. and the down side of teh dragon, again Psystalkers ruin days, as does that feeling of power then takeing a salvo of mini missiles to the face, tought humility, My gliiter boy pilot, was on cloud nine before he was handed an estimate on the repair and reload on his suit, (ps the ammo was the cheapest thing)

The Juicer slave who cant afford the detox is a huge amount story potential, do you use your little time and try earn the money to undo the augmentation, or do you live life to the fullest with what little you have left, or do you become a super powered avenger.

Posted: **Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:44 am**

Nightmask wrote:Check Atlantis, plenty of super-powered slaves around there, so the idea that one would have to be an idiot to augment a slave fails. Or look at the Megaversal Legion, a former slave army with extremely powerful bionics and equipment. They were also kept under control with brain bombs that could easily vaporize the brains of disobedient slaves and not that difficult to have similar controls on other slaves. Rich people also wouldn't be rushing to be Juicers either, the mindset of the rich is how it's beneath them to be so physical and wealthy people who embrace that kind of stuff are aberrant and in the minority. The social and financial elite don't turn themselves into superstrong/fast killing machines, they have that money to pay others to go out and do that for them.

Also the actual books where you see Juicers mentioned they refer to how many feel trapped in it, the female leaders of the Valkyrie Juicer mercenary group are explicitly noted as having had their wealth stolen that they'd banked for their retirement and detoxing and felt it impossible to acquire what they needed in the time that they had left to detox and retire once again. It has nothing to be with being too 'stupid' to put back the funds, 5-8 years is not that much time to garner wealth particularly considering financial opportunities aren't necessarily that great.

A stingy GM could see your party encountering things like Gene Starwind from Outlaw Star, any windfalls promptly eaten by the expenses to maintain the group's ship and see them properly fed and supplied and even then he was almost always in debt. So a Juicer in a group of PC can easily find himself NEVER in the position to actually save back money to attempt to detox (which isn't certain and every year you get in takes roughly TEN off your lifespan) because the money is going into maintaining and upgrading gear and replacing lost materials and what little profit never enough to pay for detoxing. The GM could easily have that idea that Juicer=early death so stuck in his head like so many here seem to have that he might even fudge things to ensure the PC never can detox because 'well that's how it's supposed to be for Juicers'.

- atlantis makes slaves super-powered using PPE. if you hadn't noticed, the monetary cost of PPE is essentially zero. i suppose there might be some argument for the pyramids having a cost, but that cost is being spread out over millions of slaves, and most likely very quickly recovers the cost.

- the megaversal legion is a perfect example of why you'd have to be an idiot to use enslaved soldiers. you notice how the megaversal legion are FORMER slave-soldiers? you notice how they killed the people who enslaved them the first chance they got, and were capable of doing so because the idiots who enslaved them made them super-powerful?

- rich people aren't into being fit? what planet have you been living on??? perhaps you haven't noticed how many plastic surgeons, personal trainers, etc exist. and note that they sure as hell aren't being hired by people who are poverty-stricken. the simple fact is that juicer augmentation takes even the weakest person and makes them super-strong, super-fast, extremely alert all the time, super-tough... and completely without a need to go around killing anything if you don't want to. it's used to make killing machines because the only line of work where "you won't live past 8 years" is not too much of a drawback is the line of work where you might get shot and killed as a result of *not* having that augmentation, thus making your life span even shorter than 8 years.

- the valkyrie group likely hasn't considered their options. they're experienced soldiers, there are plenty of ways to make money (go blow up skelebots in the pecos empire, harvest the nuclear power supplies, and cash in, for example; take out a splugorth slaver barge and sell the equipment for millions of credits; etc, etc, etc) if you want to. heck, i bet they could even find a sponsor to turn them into 'borgs (note that there are types of cyborgs that actually even look human) if they were willing to work longer.

- "The GM could be a total ass" is a stupid assumption to balance a game around. the GM can be a total ass whether or not you're going to die in 8 years. the solution to "the GM could be a total ass" is "don't play with that GM", not "we'd better re-design the entire game so that the GM can't be an ass, even though the GM can just re-design the game with house rules in a second allowing him to be an ass anyways no matter what we do".

Posted: **Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:48 am**

Nightmask wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:Really?
How Bad ass is that GB with out his Power Armor?
LLW? you do not consider a standing shoot to kill order in the Largest Human dominated area of North America that high a price? (You really need to play in the games I have then...)
Dragon? Hatching Dragons have little or no downsides? Its a freaking BABY! dragon not a full grown adult (Lacks all of that power at low levels dude.)

your "its unfair" is whats falling on deaf ears there buddy...
Come back with a real argument or get labeled something you are insisting you are not.

Well it's obvious how deaf the ears are, since they clearly dismiss valid and real arguments because they contradict the comfortable little box you want to keep things limited to

What Valid argument? Its not fair is not a valid argument.

Glitter Boy out of his armor? Unless the GM's being an @$$ or the player does something really stupid to warrant it he's going to have the opportunity to get into his armor and go to town on anyone attacking, he's not going to get one-shot killed by the GM stepping out to take a bathroom break. So he's going to have his chance to be BadAss.

LLW's and the CS's hatred of such? They don't walk around with a big sign going 'here I am I'm a magic user!', if they don't use a spell around a CS soldier and/or there aren't any Dog Boys around to detect them they're fairly safe, and there's a lot more to North America than the area dominated by the CS and even then the odds of being encountered and detected are pretty low, unlike the Juicer burn-out penalties.

Dragon Hatchling? Sure it's a baby but it's a baby DRAGON, it's still a formidable MDC creature with the option of learning magic if there's a LLW around to teach it. They aren't helpless infants by any stretch of the imagination.

So why not come back with a real argument rather than 'I just think it should be that way and won't consider anything to the contrary other than to dismiss it out of hand and with contempt'. I won't hold my breath waiting though, and certainly won't expect any kind of reasonable response.

funny i said the same to you... still waiting for you to do the same.

Posted: **Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:02 am**

This topic has gone on long enough. No one is going to change their position. Further discussion is pointless.

Let's all move on.

Topic Locked.

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