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what is this hyperbowl that you speak of ?

Lenwen wrote:Sweet !!

2,215 spells (of which we have no clue are doubles .. )...

There's a few that are doubled, but only because they appear in two or more different types of magic, with slight differences (Elemental spells and Invocations are the first to spring to mind). There is a chance however, that a spell that's in more than one setting made its way into my spreadsheet because the name was changed, or it has a different level in the BoM (I did catch a few that did that).

Speaking of which, if anyone wants a copy of it, just PM me your email address and I can send it to you. One of the other posters here did the majority of the first page (all I did was fix spelling and organized it better), and I expanded off of that.

Lenwen wrote:Sweet !!

2,215 spells (of which we have no clue are doubles .. )

Which is again .. Many many many times less then what pepsi was attempting to imply ..

Good work people.

No, it's not. I'd tossed out the general number of 4000. I've stated probably 5 or 6 times now, it was just a number being used for the point. You ignore that as it doesn't let you get snarky.

We're now up to 2,215, with 4 more books to go. Could have none. Could have dozens or up to 100 per. (( i'm not getting mine out to check right now but feel free.))

Either way you're at a minimum of 2,215... Which is at the very MOST, less than half the number I threw out there. So your claim of 'Many many many times less' is a lie.

The number that we have at present, is more than half of the number tossed out. If you multiplied it by simply 2, you'd get 4430.

So it's not even TWO times what I claimed. (( And again, as you seem to miss it. I tossed the number out to make a point. I have not claimed it to be an exact number. I've pointed this out repeatedly.))

Any way you look at it "LESS THAN 2 TIMES" is in no way "Many many many times" in a number that was being used figuratively.

Edit: As a note. The "FACT" you claimed repeatedly, was off by a minimum of 1,000. And when your total was only 1,200.. .being off by 1,000 is pretty big. You low balled by almost half, and claimed it as 'FACT' Repeatedly. I tossed out a number i repeatedly said was not exact, and was over by less than twice as much.

You claimed yours as FACT. I made clear mine was not and was an example.

Lenwen wrote:Sweet !!

2,215 spells (of which we have no clue are doubles .. )

Which is again .. Many many many times less then what pepsi was attempting to imply ..

Good work people.

Leaving off the fact that all of those spells unlike is being implied are not all available to every mage, many are exclusive to a particular OCC and many OCC are restricted to a narrow band of spells.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:

Colt47 wrote:It doesn't help that I was introduced to this game via the RUE and was left wondering why everyone was going crazy over the 20% penalty to magic from heavy armor, since the last game system I had major experience with was 3rd edition.

Actually, the one thing I do find very ridiculous in books is how Palladium doesn't seem to have any method other than eyeballing existing material to balance new material that comes out. The end result is the GMG nerf to C.J.'s creations and a whole "losing the power of chi" entry in Rifts China 2. Also, what is with the Rifts franchise and it's absolute paranoia of using Chi as it's own statistic?

So some more context:

From the beginning, mages were already at a combat disadvantage since it took half a melee to cast a spell. This was painful when everyone else had 4 attacks per melee which means without armor, you were toast before you could even get your first spell cast. Then things got worse when the "2 attacks for living" rule gave everyone else 2 additional attacks, but spell casting was still limited to 2 spells per melee.

Most of us saw this as the rules making an unfair situation more unfair.

But the most frustrating bit about magic is that the rules are completely arbitrary about what spells are blocked by environmental armor, power armor, and vehicles/robotic vehicles.

So at this point, players who like to play magic users are perhaps a little hypersensitive to anything that makes our life more difficult. We'll take one for the team if the rule makes the game a better game overall, but in the case of mages wearing armor, it does nothing to improve the game yet it penalizes us. Naturally, we don't like the rule.

But ignoring all that, the current rule is just a bad mechanic. If you want to penalize mages for wearing heavy armor, create a mechanic that doesn't require additional rolls and table lookups EVERY SINGLE TIME WE CAST A SPELL! Design the penalty such that it can noted on the character sheet once and be done with it. Something like "Heavy armor reduces PPE regeneration by 20%". There, now combat doesn't involved a bunch of extra rolls and mages still have serious incentive to not wear heavy armor.

Don't make rules that bog down gameplay.

--flatline

I hear what you're saying Flatline, but I maintain that annoyance is on purpose. It's a "Stick" That's in the rules to purposefully be annoying to help prevent PLAYERS from just sucking up a flat 20% penalty and moving on.

I.E. it's annoying because it's designed to be annoying, to purposefully make you not want to mess with it, so you won't put the heavy armor on your character.

If so, that's a bad move, because it only creates an incentive to avoid using that rule at all.
It would have been better, and smarter, and more effective to simply rule that mages can't cast spells at all under certain conditions if they really wanted to restrict them.

Besides, the penalties don't apply to "heavy armor."
They apply to ANY artificial armor that covers most of the body.
The rules apply to Plastic Man armor (35 MDC).
They do not apply to heavy Fury Beetle armor (70 MDC).

A mage wearing a Redman Suit would have his spellcasting affected, even thought the stuff couldn't stop an SDC blade or bullet.
A mage wearing a suit of Mystic Power Armor with a Naruni Super-Heavy Force Field would not have his spellcasting affected in the slightest.

So... what's the point of the rule again?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:In that case, the rule is self-defeating because they've increased the odds that it'll be ignored or house-ruled.

--flatline

Eh.... that's akin to saying "Making drugs illegaljust means more people will break the law to do them."

Actually, it's more akin do saying, "Drugs are legal, but you have to hop on one foot while wearing a hair shirt and screaming obscenities if you want to do them.
Because God knows we don't want to actually forbid their use or anything, just make a rule that makes certain activities more irritating not just to the people doing those activities, but to those around them as well."

And, in fact, that's exactly the kind of rule that people would in fact ignore.
Far more so than just making drugs illegal outright.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:

Colt47 wrote:It doesn't help that I was introduced to this game via the RUE and was left wondering why everyone was going crazy over the 20% penalty to magic from heavy armor, since the last game system I had major experience with was 3rd edition.

Actually, the one thing I do find very ridiculous in books is how Palladium doesn't seem to have any method other than eyeballing existing material to balance new material that comes out. The end result is the GMG nerf to C.J.'s creations and a whole "losing the power of chi" entry in Rifts China 2. Also, what is with the Rifts franchise and it's absolute paranoia of using Chi as it's own statistic?

So some more context:

From the beginning, mages were already at a combat disadvantage since it took half a melee to cast a spell. This was painful when everyone else had 4 attacks per melee which means without armor, you were toast before you could even get your first spell cast. Then things got worse when the "2 attacks for living" rule gave everyone else 2 additional attacks, but spell casting was still limited to 2 spells per melee.

Most of us saw this as the rules making an unfair situation more unfair.

But the most frustrating bit about magic is that the rules are completely arbitrary about what spells are blocked by environmental armor, power armor, and vehicles/robotic vehicles.

So at this point, players who like to play magic users are perhaps a little hypersensitive to anything that makes our life more difficult. We'll take one for the team if the rule makes the game a better game overall, but in the case of mages wearing armor, it does nothing to improve the game yet it penalizes us. Naturally, we don't like the rule.

But ignoring all that, the current rule is just a bad mechanic. If you want to penalize mages for wearing heavy armor, create a mechanic that doesn't require additional rolls and table lookups EVERY SINGLE TIME WE CAST A SPELL! Design the penalty such that it can noted on the character sheet once and be done with it. Something like "Heavy armor reduces PPE regeneration by 20%". There, now combat doesn't involved a bunch of extra rolls and mages still have serious incentive to not wear heavy armor.

Don't make rules that bog down gameplay.

--flatline

I hear what you're saying Flatline, but I maintain that annoyance is on purpose. It's a "Stick" That's in the rules to purposefully be annoying to help prevent PLAYERS from just sucking up a flat 20% penalty and moving on.

I.E. it's annoying because it's designed to be annoying, to purposefully make you not want to mess with it, so you won't put the heavy armor on your character.

If so, that's a bad move, because it only creates an incentive to avoid using that rule at all.
It would have been better, and smarter, and more effective to simply rule that mages can't cast spells at all under certain conditions if they really wanted to restrict them.

Besides, the penalties don't apply to "heavy armor."
They apply to ANY artificial armor that covers most of the body.
The rules apply to Plastic Man armor (35 MDC).
They do not apply to heavy Fury Beetle armor (70 MDC).

A mage wearing a Redman Suit would have his spellcasting affected, even thought the stuff couldn't stop an SDC blade or bullet.
A mage wearing a suit of Mystic Power Armor with a Naruni Super-Heavy Force Field would not have his spellcasting affected in the slightest.

So... what's the point of the rule again?

I don't have the book open in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it's only in effect to 'modern' (By rifts standard)) MDC Armor isn't it? And "Anything that covers a certain percentage of the body" ?

Therefore a padded suit would not trigger it.

As for the Mmystic power armor (( Designed from the ground up)) would not effect it. "Naruni super heavy force field... hurm...... I'm not sure on that one. That'd be a GM call. Does the forcefield 'wear' like a second skin? or is it a bubble? if it IS a second skin, does that affect the flow of PPE like 'modern' MDC armor does?

That'd be a GM call. (( unless the armor states specifically that it does not. My Naruni book is across the room. ))

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:In that case, the rule is self-defeating because they've increased the odds that it'll be ignored or house-ruled.

--flatline

Eh.... that's akin to saying "Making drugs illegaljust means more people will break the law to do them."

Actually, it's more akin do saying, "Drugs are legal, but you have to hop on one foot while wearing a hair shirt and screaming obscenities if you want to do them.
Because God knows we don't want to actually forbid their use or anything, just make a rule that makes certain activities more irritating not just to the people doing those activities, but to those around them as well."

Have you tried getting a prescription lately if your annual take home is less than 100K? It is alot like hopping on one foot while wearing a hair shirt and screaming obscenities. It's ALOT like that.

As for the other, That's the short definition of laws isn't it? Making some things more irritating not just to the people doing them but those around them as well? The Irritation being arrest and detainment, and extremely rarely execution. And irritating to those around them for having to put up with the cops and the arrests and the whining of the criminals complaining about their sorry lot in life?

Another jest but it's not TOO far off either.

As I've said before. Follow the rule, or not, but the rule works fine. If you play with out it, that's fine too. You're just not playing the game Kev and crew wrote, the way they mean for it to be played. It's a choice. One of many. I choose to take out the Rifts airline. I'm ok with that.

SAMASzero wrote: Artillery is not a front-line unit, for example, but it certainly gets used in combat, right? Mages are classically the Fantasy equivalent of artillery. They're supposed to cast in combat, but from safely behind their compatriots (and a forcefield and Armor of Ithan).

Let's look at this theory for a minute.

The range on an average high-tech rifle is a couple thousand feet.
The range on an average offensive spell is dozens to hundreds of feet.
So you stick the mages in back, and the guys with the long-range attacks up front, so that the guys with the shortest attack range are farthest from the enemy, and the guys with the longest-range attacks are closest to the enemy?

Mages can cast protective spells on themselves that create MDC barriers to protect themselves, barriers that incur no repair cost, because they cease to exist after a while, and can be resummoned at the will of the caster, as long as there is PPE available (a naturally recharging resource).
Tech soldiers wear heavy protective body armor which costs thousands of credits to repair, even with relatively minor damage.
So you stick the guys who (almost) never have to worry about repair bills behind the guys who can quickly go bankrupt from armor repairs, and who in fact can die if their armor gets damaged too much before they can travel to one of the cities that actually can repair their armor at all?

Tech soldiers can have melee weapons that inflict 3d6 or even 4d6 MD, especially if they're giant robots or such.
Mages can cast spells that summon melee weapons that can inflict 1d4x10 MD +1 MD per level (Lightblade).
So you stick your mages in back, keeping them safely out of melee range with the enemy, while the tech guys bravely step up and engage the enemy in order to protect the mages from getting hurt?

Mages can cast spells that make them flat-out impervious to certain kinds of attacks, such as "Impervious to Energy," which protects against most direct-damage tech attacks as well as most direct-damage magic (or even psionic) attacks.
Tech soldiers tend to have no immunities to any kind of direct damage attack.
So you stick your tech soldiers up front, where they're more likely to get shot with laser beams, and you stick your mages in back, where they're safe from getting hit by weapons that wouldn't harm them.

Because Mages are designed by the writers to be "glass cannons" who are fragile and not very good at engaging the enemy directly.
Does that pretty much sum things up?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

Thats 1 of my more melee favored combos !

Well said none the less ..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Besides, the penalties don't apply to "heavy armor."
They apply to ANY artificial armor that covers most of the body.
The rules apply to Plastic Man armor (35 MDC).
They do not apply to heavy Fury Beetle armor (70 MDC).

A mage wearing a Redman Suit would have his spellcasting affected, even thought the stuff couldn't stop an SDC blade or bullet.
A mage wearing a suit of Mystic Power Armor with a Naruni Super-Heavy Force Field would not have his spellcasting affected in the slightest.

So... what's the point of the rule again?

I don't have the book open in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it's only in effect to 'modern' (By rifts standard)) MDC Armor isn't it? And "Anything that covers a certain percentage of the body" ?

Therefore a padded suit would not trigger it.

RUE 188
Wearing body armor, from a full suit of medieval chain or plate to modern day environmental armor, blocks and interferes with the use of magic. A sorcerer can not wear more than partial armor, ideally covering no more tha one third of the body, never more than half. Covering oneself in metal or man-made materials, including plastic and ceramic plates, has the strange effect o fhampering the channeling of magic energy. If more than 50% of the body is covered in artificial material the mage must spend 20% more PPE to cast a spell and the player must roll once on the following table.

Armor made of natural materials, such as leather or MDC animal hides, can be worn without interfering with magic.

The Redman Suit is made of modern, non-natural materials. It would interfere with magic.
A suit of Fury Beetle armor is made of natural materials, and can be worn without interfering with magic.

As for the Mmystic power armor (( Designed from the ground up)) would not effect it.

Right.
So it's not about keeping mages from having high MDC armor.

"Naruni super heavy force field... hurm...... I'm not sure on that one. That'd be a GM call. Does the forcefield 'wear' like a second skin? or is it a bubble? if it IS a second skin, does that affect the flow of PPE like 'modern' MDC armor does?

Doesn't matter. A force field is not "a material."

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SAMASzero wrote: Artillery is not a front-line unit, for example, but it certainly gets used in combat, right? Mages are classically the Fantasy equivalent of artillery. They're supposed to cast in combat, but from safely behind their compatriots (and a forcefield and Armor of Ithan).

Let's look at this theory for a minute.

The range on an average high-tech rifle is a couple thousand feet.
The range on an average offensive spell is dozens to hundreds of feet.
So you stick the mages in back, and the guys with the long-range attacks up front, so that the guys with the shortest attack range are farthest from the enemy, and the guys with the longest-range attacks are closest to the enemy?

Mages can cast protective spells on themselves that create MDC barriers to protect themselves, barriers that incur no repair cost, because they cease to exist after a while, and can be resummoned at the will of the caster, as long as there is PPE available (a naturally recharging resource).
Tech soldiers wear heavy protective body armor which costs thousands of credits to repair, even with relatively minor damage.
So you stick the guys who (almost) never have to worry about repair bills behind the guys who can quickly go bankrupt from armor repairs, and who in fact can die if their armor gets damaged too much before they can travel to one of the cities that actually can repair their armor at all?

Tech soldiers can have melee weapons that inflict 3d6 or even 4d6 MD, especially if they're giant robots or such.
Mages can cast spells that summon melee weapons that can inflict 1d4x10 MD +1 MD per level (Lightblade).
So you stick your mages in back, keeping them safely out of melee range with the enemy, while the tech guys bravely step up and engage the enemy in order to protect the mages from getting hurt?

Mages can cast spells that make them flat-out impervious to certain kinds of attacks, such as "Impervious to Energy," which protects against most direct-damage tech attacks as well as most direct-damage magic (or even psionic) attacks.
Tech soldiers tend to have no immunities to any kind of direct damage attack.
So you stick your tech soldiers up front, where they're more likely to get shot with laser beams, and you stick your mages in back, where they're safe from getting hit by weapons that wouldn't harm them.

Because Mages are designed by the writers to be "glass cannons" who are fragile and not very good at engaging the enemy directly.
Does that pretty much sum things up?

Good points all around.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

flatline wrote:In that case, the rule is self-defeating because they've increased the odds that it'll be ignored or house-ruled.

--flatline

Eh.... that's akin to saying "Making drugs illegaljust means more people will break the law to do them."

Actually, it's more akin do saying, "Drugs are legal, but you have to hop on one foot while wearing a hair shirt and screaming obscenities if you want to do them.
Because God knows we don't want to actually forbid their use or anything, just make a rule that makes certain activities more irritating not just to the people doing those activities, but to those around them as well."

Have you tried getting a prescription lately if your annual take home is less than 100K? It is alot like hopping on one foot while wearing a hair shirt and screaming obscenities. It's ALOT like that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get prescriptions for, but my take home is a LOT less than 100k, and I haven't had any problems getting prescriptions.

As for the other, That's the short definition of laws isn't it? Making some things more irritating not just to the people doing them but those around them as well? The Irritation being arrest and detainment, and extremely rarely execution. And irritating to those around them for having to put up with the cops and the arrests and the whining of the criminals complaining about their sorry lot in life?

Another jest but it's not TOO far off either.

I'd say that it IS too far off.
But this isn't the first time we've disagreed on something.

As I've said before. Follow the rule, or not, but the rule works fine.

In what sense does it "work fine?"
It doesn't keep mages from wearing armor with high MDC.
It doesn't keep mages from wearing heavy armor.
It doesn't keep mages from wearing natural armors that are at least as sturdy as their non-natural counterparts.
It doesn't keep mages from casting spells while in heavy armor or armor with high MDC.
It doesn't make sense with the physics or the metaphysics of the game world.

So how exactly is it working?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

My money is still on the juicer.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

As I've said before. Follow the rule, or not, but the rule works fine.

In what sense does it "work fine?"
It doesn't keep mages from wearing armor with high MDC.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written. Impossible? No. Annoying and disadvantageous, yes. As written mages don't wear metal or man made material armor that covers more than half of their body. As it messes with their magic. Armors designed from the ground up to be magical, yes, can be worn, by magical classes with out said interference.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It doesn't keep mages from wearing heavy armor.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written. Impossible? No. Annoying and disadvantageous, yes. As written mages don't wear metal or man made material armor that covers more than half of their body. As it messes with their magic. Armors designed from the ground up to be magical, yes, can be worn, by magical classes with out said interference.

Killer Cyborg wrote: It doesn't keep mages from wearing natural armors that are at least as sturdy as their non-natural counterparts

Nope, but as written those don't mess with the magic and while heavy and not suited for the mage, aren't against how Kevin and co say magic works.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It doesn't keep mages from casting spells while in heavy armor or armor with high MDC.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written. Impossible? No. Annoying and disadvantageous, yes. As written mages don't wear metal or man made material armor that covers more than half of their body. As it messes with their magic. Armors designed from the ground up to be magical, yes, can be worn, by magical classes with out said interference.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
It doesn't make sense with the physics or the metaphysics of the game world.

It's magic. Magic by it's nature doesn't have to make sense. It works with the metaphysics of the game world because the creator of the game world says it does. You can't 'Explain' magic made up by someone else. You can only explain YOUR made up magic. KEVIN/PALLDIUM's made up magic, works this way. Why? Cuz he said it does.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
So how exactly is it working?

[/quote]

It works to make it disadvantageous to go against the class as written. But not impossible. If you're willing to take the penalties and go against class, you have free will to do so. If you play as written and get one of those alturnatives that do not go against class you're free to do so.

Works just fine. It enforces that "Mages just don't do ____" with out coming down and just going "God said no. So you can never do it" If you're willing to take the lumps or go around in very heavy (( Physically)) hot, ugly hide armor, or pay out the bucks for the magical armor (( You think NORMAL armor is hard to repair.. )) Then do so.

Hell I've said repeatedly if you're going to ignore the class guidelines and how they're presented, you can. But it's against what the game has set as Palladium's "Version' of Mages.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

My money is still on the juicer.

I dunno, man. It kind of depends on what level the mage is, and how many prep spells he gets to cast, as well as what gear the juicer has (and what kind of juicer).

Sometimes, the odds will be on the juicer. Sometimes on the mage. Sometimes even money.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

As I've said before. Follow the rule, or not, but the rule works fine.

In what sense does it "work fine?"
It doesn't keep mages from wearing armor with high MDC.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written. Impossible? No. Annoying and disadvantageous, yes.

Not significantly.

As written mages don't wear metal or man made material armor that covers more than half of their body. As it messes with their magic. Armors designed from the ground up to be magical, yes, can be worn, by magical classes with out said interference.

No, armors designed from the ground up to be magical don't matter squat.
Magical armors made from man-made materials still interfere.
Magical armors made from natural materials don't interfere.
Just like any other armor.

Unless you know of a rule that I don't?

Killer Cyborg wrote:It doesn't keep mages from wearing heavy armor.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written.

Not really, no.
Or rather, only sometimes.
If you have a mage that has to choose between Fury Beetle armor and Plastic Man armor, he can cast spells better in Fury Beetle armor.
If you have a mage that has to choose between Heavy Dead Boy armor (100 MDC) and LLW Armor (32 MDC), the minor restrictions to spell casting aren't going to be as big of a factor as whether or not the mage expects to get shot a lot in the near future.
So the rules really don't so much at all, nothing significant anyway, to keep mages from wearing heavy armor.

Killer Cyborg wrote: It doesn't keep mages from wearing natural armors that are at least as sturdy as their non-natural counterparts

Nope, but as written those don't mess with the magic and while heavy and not suited for the mage, aren't against how Kevin and co say magic works.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but it sounds like you're saying, "You're right, KC: the current rules keeping mages from casting spells properly in artificial materials don't really do anything to keep mages from wearing heavy armor."

Killer Cyborg wrote: It doesn't keep mages from casting spells while in heavy armor or armor with high MDC.

It makes it disadvantageous to go against the class as written.

How do you figure?

Killer Cyborg wrote: It doesn't make sense with the physics or the metaphysics of the game world.

It's magic. Magic by it's nature doesn't have to make sense.

I disagree.

It works with the metaphysics of the game world because the creator of the game world says it does.

The chef can take a crap in the salad, but that doesn't mean that it fits with the rest of the ingredients or the overall flavor.

You can't 'Explain' magic made up by someone else.

Try me.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
So how exactly is it working?

Works just fine. It enforces that "Mages just don't do ____" with out coming down and just going "God said no. So you can never do it" If you're willing to take the lumps or go around in very heavy (( Physically)) hot, ugly hide armor, or pay out the bucks for the magical armor (( You think NORMAL armor is hard to repair.. )) Then do so. [/quote]

a) The concept that mages don't like to wear heavy armor was already adequately enforced before the additional rules about hampering spellcasting.
b) The concept that mages don't like to wear artificial armor is entirely new, and is only a result of the rules that it hampers spellcasting, to the extent that it exists at all. Hell, it's never even stated that mages dislike wearing artificial armor, only that they dislike wearing heavy armor.
So how does "mages have trouble casting spells while wearing artificial armor" enforce "mages don't like to wear heavy armor?"
c) What do you think that LLW armor is made of...?
d) Some magical armor repairs itself, and that's pretty easy. Although, again, whether or not the armor is magic isn't a factor in this equation.

Hell I've said repeatedly if you're going to ignore the class guidelines and how they're presented, you can. But it's against what the game has set as Palladium's "Version' of Mages.

You've said it, but it's never yet made any sense.
Because the original rules already stated that mages prefer light armor: that was in the class guidelines.
And, as pointed out above, the new rules about artificial materials hampering spellcasting abilities don't really have anything to do with whether the mages wear heavy armor or not, only whether they wear artificial armor.

So the rules have changed from "mages prefer to wear light armor" to "mages prefer to wear light armor, oh, and artificial armor hampers their spellcasting."
How exactly does that "make it disadvantageous to go against the class as written"...?

Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury and Fleet feet ..

Buh - By .. Juicer ..

Lenwen wrote:Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury and Fleet feet ..

Buh - By .. Juicer ..

"Giant" would help too, though.

Wait, so according to the new rule, a polyester suit interferes with spell casting?

This just gets better and better.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Wait, so according to the new rule, a polyester suit interferes with spell casting?

This just gets better and better.

--flatline

Hmmm, I haven't seen the entire rule but if it says something along the lines of 'being confined in unnatural/artificial materials impedes spell-casting' then that would be true. You'd have to wear cotton or silk or similar head to toe because otherwise you'd always be impeded even while wearing natural armor on top of it.

Of course that's ridiculous in a lot of ways, given there's nothing unnatural or artificial about things like carbon steel they're all products of natural processes and being the products of natural processes how can the end result be unnatural?

flatline wrote:Wait, so according to the new rule, a polyester suit interferes with spell casting?

This just gets better and better.

--flatline

Anyone else envisioning Palladium Mages all dressed like Conan the Barbarian?

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:Wait, so according to the new rule, a polyester suit interferes with spell casting?

This just gets better and better.

--flatline

Anyone else envisioning Palladium Mages all dressed like Conan the Barbarian?

Only after they've worked out the 'Enchanted Loincloth' ritual whereby they either transform their SDC/HP totals into MDC or gives them a flat natural 100+MDC body field so long as it's worn.

Kilts are made of wool...

flatline wrote:Kilts are made of wool...

So an Enchanted Kilt ritual then? Not that many if anyone in North America would remember what one is.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SAMASzero wrote: Artillery is not a front-line unit, for example, but it certainly gets used in combat, right? Mages are classically the Fantasy equivalent of artillery. They're supposed to cast in combat, but from safely behind their compatriots (and a forcefield and Armor of Ithan).

Let's look at this theory for a minute.

The range on an average high-tech rifle is a couple thousand feet.
The range on an average offensive spell is dozens to hundreds of feet.
So you stick the mages in back, and the guys with the long-range attacks up front, so that the guys with the shortest attack range are farthest from the enemy, and the guys with the longest-range attacks are closest to the enemy?

Mages can cast protective spells on themselves that create MDC barriers to protect themselves, barriers that incur no repair cost, because they cease to exist after a while, and can be resummoned at the will of the caster, as long as there is PPE available (a naturally recharging resource).
Tech soldiers wear heavy protective body armor which costs thousands of credits to repair, even with relatively minor damage.
So you stick the guys who (almost) never have to worry about repair bills behind the guys who can quickly go bankrupt from armor repairs, and who in fact can die if their armor gets damaged too much before they can travel to one of the cities that actually can repair their armor at all?

Tech soldiers can have melee weapons that inflict 3d6 or even 4d6 MD, especially if they're giant robots or such.
Mages can cast spells that summon melee weapons that can inflict 1d4x10 MD +1 MD per level (Lightblade).
So you stick your mages in back, keeping them safely out of melee range with the enemy, while the tech guys bravely step up and engage the enemy in order to protect the mages from getting hurt?

Mages can cast spells that make them flat-out impervious to certain kinds of attacks, such as "Impervious to Energy," which protects against most direct-damage tech attacks as well as most direct-damage magic (or even psionic) attacks.
Tech soldiers tend to have no immunities to any kind of direct damage attack.
So you stick your tech soldiers up front, where they're more likely to get shot with laser beams, and you stick your mages in back, where they're safe from getting hit by weapons that wouldn't harm them.

Because Mages are designed by the writers to be "glass cannons" who are fragile and not very good at engaging the enemy directly.
Does that pretty much sum things up?

Yep, that's pretty much how it works out in practice, doesn't it?

I said that's how the idea seems to work. I didn't say it was well thought out.

SAMASzero wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SAMASzero wrote: Artillery is not a front-line unit, for example, but it certainly gets used in combat, right? Mages are classically the Fantasy equivalent of artillery. They're supposed to cast in combat, but from safely behind their compatriots (and a forcefield and Armor of Ithan).

Let's look at this theory for a minute.

The range on an average high-tech rifle is a couple thousand feet.
The range on an average offensive spell is dozens to hundreds of feet.
So you stick the mages in back, and the guys with the long-range attacks up front, so that the guys with the shortest attack range are farthest from the enemy, and the guys with the longest-range attacks are closest to the enemy?

Mages can cast protective spells on themselves that create MDC barriers to protect themselves, barriers that incur no repair cost, because they cease to exist after a while, and can be resummoned at the will of the caster, as long as there is PPE available (a naturally recharging resource).
Tech soldiers wear heavy protective body armor which costs thousands of credits to repair, even with relatively minor damage.
So you stick the guys who (almost) never have to worry about repair bills behind the guys who can quickly go bankrupt from armor repairs, and who in fact can die if their armor gets damaged too much before they can travel to one of the cities that actually can repair their armor at all?

Tech soldiers can have melee weapons that inflict 3d6 or even 4d6 MD, especially if they're giant robots or such.
Mages can cast spells that summon melee weapons that can inflict 1d4x10 MD +1 MD per level (Lightblade).
So you stick your mages in back, keeping them safely out of melee range with the enemy, while the tech guys bravely step up and engage the enemy in order to protect the mages from getting hurt?

Mages can cast spells that make them flat-out impervious to certain kinds of attacks, such as "Impervious to Energy," which protects against most direct-damage tech attacks as well as most direct-damage magic (or even psionic) attacks.
Tech soldiers tend to have no immunities to any kind of direct damage attack.
So you stick your tech soldiers up front, where they're more likely to get shot with laser beams, and you stick your mages in back, where they're safe from getting hit by weapons that wouldn't harm them.

Because Mages are designed by the writers to be "glass cannons" who are fragile and not very good at engaging the enemy directly.
Does that pretty much sum things up?

Yep, that's pretty much how it works out in practice, doesn't it?

I said that's how the idea seems to work. I didn't say it was well thought out.

So you're basically saying they're operating under the flawed idea of what the mages are instead of going by what they actually are? Since it does seem like they're basing it all off of AD&D mages rather than the rules governing their own mages. In AD&D the mages particularly at higher levels tend to have the longest range attacks and most damaging, unlike Palladium, so they're basing ideas on a class that doesn't actually exist in their own game.

In a party of five, everyone is a front line trooper.

I figure you'd have to have at least a dozen characters in order to create effective lines during combat and even that fails if the enemy can fly (or teleport).

--flatline

SAMASzero wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SAMASzero wrote: Artillery is not a front-line unit, for example, but it certainly gets used in combat, right? Mages are classically the Fantasy equivalent of artillery. They're supposed to cast in combat, but from safely behind their compatriots (and a forcefield and Armor of Ithan).

Let's look at this theory for a minute.

The range on an average high-tech rifle is a couple thousand feet.
The range on an average offensive spell is dozens to hundreds of feet.
So you stick the mages in back, and the guys with the long-range attacks up front, so that the guys with the shortest attack range are farthest from the enemy, and the guys with the longest-range attacks are closest to the enemy?

Mages can cast protective spells on themselves that create MDC barriers to protect themselves, barriers that incur no repair cost, because they cease to exist after a while, and can be resummoned at the will of the caster, as long as there is PPE available (a naturally recharging resource).
Tech soldiers wear heavy protective body armor which costs thousands of credits to repair, even with relatively minor damage.
So you stick the guys who (almost) never have to worry about repair bills behind the guys who can quickly go bankrupt from armor repairs, and who in fact can die if their armor gets damaged too much before they can travel to one of the cities that actually can repair their armor at all?

Tech soldiers can have melee weapons that inflict 3d6 or even 4d6 MD, especially if they're giant robots or such.
Mages can cast spells that summon melee weapons that can inflict 1d4x10 MD +1 MD per level (Lightblade).
So you stick your mages in back, keeping them safely out of melee range with the enemy, while the tech guys bravely step up and engage the enemy in order to protect the mages from getting hurt?

Mages can cast spells that make them flat-out impervious to certain kinds of attacks, such as "Impervious to Energy," which protects against most direct-damage tech attacks as well as most direct-damage magic (or even psionic) attacks.
Tech soldiers tend to have no immunities to any kind of direct damage attack.
So you stick your tech soldiers up front, where they're more likely to get shot with laser beams, and you stick your mages in back, where they're safe from getting hit by weapons that wouldn't harm them.

Because Mages are designed by the writers to be "glass cannons" who are fragile and not very good at engaging the enemy directly.
Does that pretty much sum things up?

Yep, that's pretty much how it works out in practice, doesn't it?

Not in my experience.

I said that's how the idea seems to work. I didn't say it was well thought out.

Why do you say that this is how the idea seems to work?
As in, where are you coming up with the theory that mages are supposed to hide behind other OCCs in combat?

Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

What prevents a 1st level mage from casting Impervious to Energy or Invincible Armor?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

What prevents a 1st level mage from casting Impervious to Energy or Invincible Armor?

--flatline

Access to the spells for one, not many spell-casting OCC give access to those spells at 1st level.

flatline wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

What prevents a 1st level mage from casting Impervious to Energy or Invincible Armor?

--flatline

Time if you rolled poorly for initiative.

The Beast wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

What prevents a 1st level mage from casting Impervious to Energy or Invincible Armor?

--flatline

Time if you rolled poorly for initiative.

Couldn't the same be said for any combat oriented class if they're not in their MD armor? Sleeping, droppin' a duce in the woods, ect?

While were on that topic ..

Exactly how many "Buff" type spells could a mage in cloths .. place on himself ?

And when I use the term "Buff" type spells.. I am refurring to armor , protection type spells.

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

Thats 1 of my more melee favored combos !

Well said none the less ..

TW Juicer Armor....

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

Energy Shield is generally available at first level, and provides 60 MDC worth of protection.
Double at ley lines.
Triple at nexuses.

Likewise, Impervious to Fire and Impervious to Poison are available at first level for most mages.
Shifters (and perhaps some other kinds of mages) can learn Impervious to Energy, or Invulnerability, or other such spells at first level, depending on the union they pick.
A techno-wizard could have armor that casts Invulnerability for him, iirc, at first level.
And that's not taking into account less common OCCs.

But out of curiosity, why worry about first level specifically?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

Energy Shield is generally available at first level, and provides 60 MDC worth of protection.
Double at ley lines.
Triple at nexuses.

Likewise, Impervious to Fire and Impervious to Poison are available at first level for most mages.
Shifters (and perhaps some other kinds of mages) can learn Impervious to Energy, or Invulnerability, or other such spells at first level, depending on the union they pick.
A techno-wizard could have armor that casts Invulnerability for him, iirc, at first level.
And that's not taking into account less common OCCs.

But out of curiosity, why worry about first level specifically?

Because if you think your character can't even survive the first level you don't even bother thinking about what it'd be like at higher levels so you focus on 'can he make it as a 1st level character?'.

Nightmask wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:Mages have to have the most lenient gm ever, or be very high level before their mdc protections are worth even a suit of plastic man armor, and much higher still to be immune to anything. they are practicly worthless at low levels.

Energy Shield is generally available at first level, and provides 60 MDC worth of protection.
Double at ley lines.
Triple at nexuses.

Likewise, Impervious to Fire and Impervious to Poison are available at first level for most mages.
Shifters (and perhaps some other kinds of mages) can learn Impervious to Energy, or Invulnerability, or other such spells at first level, depending on the union they pick.
A techno-wizard could have armor that casts Invulnerability for him, iirc, at first level.
And that's not taking into account less common OCCs.

But out of curiosity, why worry about first level specifically?

Because if you think your character can't even survive the first level you don't even bother thinking about what it'd be like at higher levels so you focus on 'can he make it as a 1st level character?'.

A mage's starting gear should generally get him through 1st level just fine.
Or, at least, it should generally get him through 1st level about the same whether you pick Plastic Man or LLW armor for your armor.

Oh my god! What did they do to the Cyber-Knight?

The RMB OCC was simple, elegant even. The new OCC has lost all of that.

Is the "cyber-armor" some sort of symbiote that looks like cybernetic armor?

And where did this "Zen combat" come from? I'm trying to wrap my mind around it, but at this point, it defies understanding.

CK's used to be my favorite non-magic OCC...These new CK's are unrecognizable.

--flatline

lol first time in 7 years you've looked at them?

flatline wrote:Oh my god! What did they do to the Cyber-Knight?

The RMB OCC was simple, elegant even. The new OCC has lost all of that.

Is the "cyber-armor" some sort of symbiote that looks like cybernetic armor?

And where did this "Zen combat" come from? I'm trying to wrap my mind around it, but at this point, it defies understanding.

CK's used to be my favorite non-magic OCC...These new CK's are unrecognizable.

--flatline

Yup.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:lol first time in 7 years you've looked at them?

I just bought a stack of new books to see what I've been missing. First Palladium books I've purchased since probably 2000 or 2001.

I really enjoyed the phaseworld books I picked up, BoM, and CB2 (I like demigods, don't care for godlings). Now I'm starting to work through HU2, RUE, and Splicers.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:lol first time in 7 years you've looked at them?

I just bought a stack of new books to see what I've been missing. First Palladium books I've purchased since probably 2000 or 2001.

I really enjoyed the phaseworld books I picked up, BoM, and CB2 (I like demigods, don't care for godlings). Now I'm starting to work through HU2, RUE, and Splicers.

--flatline

I'd point you to the Cyberknights book for more information on them. I rather like um myself. I know not eveyone does. It's just a little amusing to see the shock so many years later. lol

I like my je..... Cyberknights just fine. But then I'm not beholden to stuff that was written 20 years ago. I go with what I like.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

My money is still on the juicer.

Three words.

Carpet. Of. Adhesion.

This plus ordinary heavy explosive grenades means he doesn't have to worry. Even a dodge indicates half damage. And this is assuming your mage is underpowered except for one spell and kind of stinks. This is a case where I would take the mage any day.

Once you include grenades, I no longer consider it to be a fist fight.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Once you include grenades, I no longer consider it to be a fist fight.

Well is it a handgrenade...

Balabanto wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Are you able to fist ffight a Juicer? No.
Do you have 4000 spells that you could use to prevent fist fighting a Juicer? Yes.

ha. Awesome.

Sure.
Spells like Magical Adrenal Rush, Superhuman Strength, and Fist of Fury.
With spells like that, there's no way you should ever fist-fight a juicer instead of relying on magic.

My money is still on the juicer.

Three words.

Carpet. Of. Adhesion.

This plus ordinary heavy explosive grenades means he doesn't have to worry. Even a dodge indicates half damage. And this is assuming your mage is underpowered except for one spell and kind of stinks. This is a case where I would take the mage any day.

You use heavy explosive grenades in a fist fight?

Mack wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Once you include grenades, I no longer consider it to be a fist fight.

Well is it a handgrenade...

Ah, but not a fist grenade.