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taalismn wrote:Why even bother with pilots for converted Gnerls? Back when Earth was fully populated in the billion+ range, it was cheaper to put living pilots in cockpits than expensive AIs. If you're counting lives with regards to preserving genetic diversity, suddenly, post-Rain, it becomes economical to build AIs(especially if you're already building VFs)...If you're not concerned about pilot efficiency, reprogram QF Ghost AIs, install them in your surplus Gnerls, use the space savings to add reaction mass or armament or avionics, and use them as disposable drone fighters.
Failing that, recycle Gnerl propulsion thrusters into stopgap generation long range anti-spacecraft cruise missiles.

LOVE THIS IDEA!

look up the QF-16A, and the QF-35.. the idea of converting regular fighters to drones is a common one right now.

glitterboy2098 wrote:look up the QF-16A, and the QF-35.. the idea of converting regular fighters to drones is a common one right now.

's also something with some precedent in RT... between the RPG and the official material, the Alpha platform's a drone that was converted into a manned fighter and back into a drone again.

Sgt Anjay wrote:No, really, illuminate me. In what episode, what issue, do we see Zentraedi resize themselves for the purpose of entering combat, then change their size once more when combat is over?

Macross as a whole, it's done a fair bit... though it didn't start showing up explicitly until titles from the mid-90s, incl. Macross M3, though a few other titles mention it happening "off-screen". Macross Frontier was the first of the televised anime titles to put it front and center, in the "Diamond Crevasse"/"Blue Ether" two-parter. The old Sentinels comics for RT did it a few times, tho the instance that really leaps to mind is the mass resizing that went on in one of the final issues of the old comics (where Exedore doesn't have the heart to tell the newly giant Breetai that he can't go back to his original size because the chamber's burned out). I'd have to dig my comics out of storage to give you a precise issue and page number though, so my apologies for that.


[quote="Sgt Anjay"]That isn't evidence they were dubious prior to their betrayal. There's nothing showing the Haydonites did anything untoward before the shadow tech sabotage...which is why their shadow tech was trusted, allowing them to sabotage it. They apparently had been so above board prior to that, even Earth First Edwards trusted them.
There was considerable dialogue to the effect of "Can we really trust aliens" in Prelude, but in particular I'd point to the fact that Dr. Cochrane started taking apart a Neutron-S warhead because the shadow field was preventing them from seeing how it worked, and Louie's conversation with Haydonite intermediary Janice EM2 about how the Haydonite information about how shadow technology works doesn't tally with objective reality a fairly good indicator that the technically-capable staffers the UEEF had were dubious about it... even if they weren't voicing suspicions of sabotage, they were at least astute enough to note that something was not right.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:look up the QF-16A, and the QF-35.. the idea of converting regular fighters to drones is a common one right now.

's also something with some precedent in RT... between the RPG and the official material, the Alpha platform's a drone that was converted into a manned fighter and back into a drone again.

And certainly with the experience of the Ghost, the principles of programming airborne AIs are rather more advanced than for ground units(hence, the GMP's Golem might be a lackluster success, made all the more obvious by its public exposure, but aerial drones could be much greater successes...only who can tell from the ground whether that flying speck is a manned aircraft or a drone?).

taalismn wrote:And certainly with the experience of the Ghost, the principles of programming airborne AIs are rather more advanced than for ground units(hence, the GMP's Golem might be a lackluster success, made all the more obvious by its public exposure, but aerial drones could be much greater successes...only who can tell from the ground whether that flying speck is a manned aircraft or a drone?).

Well, the continued success of drone aircraft in the Robotech universe certainly suggests that they've had MUCH more success with UCAVs. The only obstacle they seem to have run into, per the Infopedia, was in developing a combat AI that could operate in fully autonomous mode... which they finally sorted out on the Shadow Drone in 2043-2044. Dropping an AI into the Gnerl would be a dandy quick-fix solution... they wouldn't have to engineer or test a new control "pod" for a miclone crew... they could just bypass the controls altogether and integrate a Ghost's AI into the airframe's flight control system.

Now THAT is a quick-fix solution if ever there was one. I like that so much, I may just use it myself.

Feel free.
Yes, autonomous mode would be the ultimate grail of the AI drone program, especially since the Zentraedi have ECM, which would cut real-time command-control signals.
The Masters, I imagine, would be even worse with regards to electronic trickery, and the fate of any QF-Gnerls in Southern Cross service might have been to sent off into deep space or even turned against the ASC by Masters' EW, at least until the ASC started cutting out external command links on the drones and sending them on one-way do-or-die attacks on the Tirolians.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:No, really, illuminate me. In what episode, what issue, do we see Zentraedi resize themselves for the purpose of entering combat, then change their size once more when combat is over?

Macross as a whole, it's done a fair bit... though it didn't start showing up explicitly until titles from the mid-90s, incl. Macross M3, though a few other titles mention it happening "off-screen". Macross Frontier was the first of the televised anime titles to put it front and center, in the "Diamond Crevasse"/"Blue Ether" two-parter.

Oh.

Stuff that doesn't apply.

Seto Kaiba wrote: The old Sentinels comics for RT did it a few times

See, I've read them? And scenes of size-changing for back and forth for combat doesn't come to mind, and I would've thought that would change my perception of the toll of macro/micronization.

Seto Kaiba wrote: tho the instance that really leaps to mind is the mass resizing that went on in one of the final issues of the old comics (where Exedore doesn't have the heart to tell the newly giant Breetai that he can't go back to his original size because the chamber's burned out).

You mean when the Zentraedi sized themselves up to mine monopole? That...wasn't for combat, and clearly they didn't micronize themselves right after, for the same reason you yourself just stated Exedore couldn't size himself back up.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:That isn't evidence they were dubious prior to their betrayal. There's nothing showing the Haydonites did anything untoward before the shadow tech sabotage...which is why their shadow tech was trusted, allowing them to sabotage it. They apparently had been so above board prior to that, even Earth First Edwards trusted them.

There was considerable dialogue to the effect of "Can we really trust aliens" in Prelude, but in particular I'd point to the fact that Dr. Cochrane started taking apart a Neutron-S warhead because the shadow field was preventing them from seeing how it worked, and Louie's conversation with Haydonite intermediary Janice EM2 about how the Haydonite information about how shadow technology works doesn't tally with objective reality a fairly good indicator that the technically-capable staffers the UEEF had were dubious about it... even if they weren't voicing suspicions of sabotage, they were at least astute enough to note that something was not right.

Ok.

Again.

You say the UEEF shouldn't have adopted an unknown technology from a dubious ally. The literal statement was "the military would never universally adopt an unknown technology supplied by a dubious ally".

Prior to handing over that sabotaged technology, they were not a dubious ally, so there was zero reason for the UEEF to turn the free technology down. They had been eminently trustworthy as a member of the alliance that had stood by the UEEF. Then, after that technology from that trustworthy ally was adopted and the UEEF had a chance to start taking a closer look so they could figure it out the tech's principles for themselves and no longer be Haydonite-dependent, and only then, did evidence they were dubious begin to be discovered.

Long story short (too late):
For them to have adopted tech from a dubious ally, the ally would have to have been dubious before the tech was handed over, not after. All your examples are humans starting to figure out the betrayal after the fact.

taalismn wrote:Feel free.
Yes, autonomous mode would be the ultimate grail of the AI drone program, especially since the Zentraedi have ECM, which would cut real-time command-control signals.
The Masters, I imagine, would be even worse with regards to electronic trickery, and the fate of any QF-Gnerls in Southern Cross service might have been to sent off into deep space or even turned against the ASC by Masters' EW, at least until the ASC started cutting out external command links on the drones and sending them on one-way do-or-die attacks on the Tirolians.

Seto's absolutely right. This is good stuff!

taalismn wrote:Yes, autonomous mode would be the ultimate grail of the AI drone program, especially since the Zentraedi have ECM, which would cut real-time command-control signals. [...]

Note, the choice of wording in the Infopedia article was "fully autonomous". One could readily interpret this to mean a typical drone fighter's AI from the 2020s era or earlier could operate semi-autonomously, with a controller somewhere giving the drone or drones under his/her oversight course directives, target parameters, and setting the strategy, and allowing the drones to fly themselves based on those directions instead of having to have complete control over all of them remotely, in much the same way that Macross handled the Ghost and its successor units.

So, depending on just how autonomous those AIs are, they could conceivably continue to operate even under jamming... within certain limitations.

The eventual goal of Ghost development seems to be the Shadow Drone's AI, which was fully autonomous to the point of "There they are boys, go get 'em".

I think I remember a coment to the effect of "the Betrayal was so suprising that it was on the order of the England abruptly declaring war on the US on D Day and sinking and shooting down the transports used by the American Army." but I cant find who made that coment on the RT forums (after all up to that point they seemed to openly hate the Invid and were in a full blown war with them for whatever reason)

Drakenred®™© wrote:I think I remember a coment to the effect of "the Betrayal was so suprising that it was on the order of the England abruptly declaring war on the US on D Day and sinking and shooting down the transports used by the American Army." but I cant find who made that coment on the RT forums (after all up to that point they seemed to openly hate the Invid and were in a full blown war with them for whatever reason)

The rank and file guys in the Prelude limited comic do a lot of muttering about how aliens might not be trustworthy or how they might have their own agendas and such... though it all seems to fall on deaf ears because Admiral Hunter's kind of naive and trusting. Edwards himself seemed pretty unsurprised that the Haydonites stabbed him in the back as well.

(Prelude makes a brief allusion to the Haydonites motivation for said back-stabbing, with Veidt and co. indicating they were shocked or dismayed that humans were setting themselves up to become the Robotech Masters Mk.II... implying they'd have left humanity alone if Admiral Hunter hadn't gone all gung-ho about the neutron-s warheads. It doesn't quite fit with a lot of what's in RTSC itself, where the Haydonites seem to have a genocidal hate-on for anyone who uses protoculture.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

taalismn wrote:Yes, autonomous mode would be the ultimate grail of the AI drone program, especially since the Zentraedi have ECM, which would cut real-time command-control signals. [...]

Note, the choice of wording in the Infopedia article was "fully autonomous". One could readily interpret this to mean a typical drone fighter's AI from the 2020s era or earlier could operate semi-autonomously, with a controller somewhere giving the drone or drones under his/her oversight course directives, target parameters, and setting the strategy, and allowing the drones to fly themselves based on those directions instead of having to have complete control over all of them remotely, in much the same way that Macross handled the Ghost and its successor units.

So, depending on just how autonomous those AIs are, they could conceivably continue to operate even under jamming... within certain limitations.

.

As with current generation RPVs, where if it loses signal, it's SUPPOSED to start orbiting until it reacquires signal....or flies into Iranian airspace, crashes, and becomes an humiliating blunder.

taalismn wrote:As with current generation RPVs, where if it loses signal, it's SUPPOSED to start orbiting until it reacquires signal....or flies into Iranian airspace, crashes, and becomes an humiliating blunder.

I'd like to think that, after receiving a technology boost from an interstellar spacecraft, we might be able to do better than that... something more like the FRX prototype from Sentō Yōsei Yukikaze, which is on roughly the same level as Ghost units from Macross's universe in terms of its AI's semi-autonomous operation mode. I'd still say it's probably better to have it just start circling until it gets signal back than what's implied to have happened early in AIF-X-9's development (the unit from Macross Plus), with the drone's AI going crazy rampage nuts.

taalismn wrote:As with current generation RPVs, where if it loses signal, it's SUPPOSED to start orbiting until it reacquires signal....or flies into Iranian airspace, crashes, and becomes an humiliating blunder.

Not that I really trust what Iran says, but they might have actually used cyber warfare to gain control of the craft in question. What this means is that several counter measures have to be implemented to prevent the taking over of a UAV again.

taalismn wrote:Why even bother with pilots for converted Gnerls? Back when Earth was fully populated in the billion+ range, it was cheaper to put living pilots in cockpits than expensive AIs. If you're counting lives with regards to preserving genetic diversity, suddenly, post-Rain, it becomes economical to build AIs(especially if you're already building VFs)...If you're not concerned about pilot efficiency, reprogram QF Ghost AIs, install them in your surplus Gnerls, use the space savings to add reaction mass or armament or avionics, and use them as disposable drone fighters.
Failing that, recycle Gnerl propulsion thrusters into stopgap generation long range anti-spacecraft cruise missiles.

Not to put a damper on this idea or anything, but according to the (2E) RPG AI use fell out of favor sometime in 2015 from the cancellation of the Wraith project that is linked with the Alpha program history. Who knows what impact that may have had on the use of other AI programs (Ghost in service, but also the Golem).

Though the technology could a helping hand with converting the designs over to a man-size crew if the human size station has a wireless connection to the controls of the Gnerl. Said crew station could then be positioned anywhere in the cockpit, or not at all.

Though if we're considering turning them into missiles, why waste the expensive Ghost AI and not simply install a guidance system from a smart missile with a software patch to use the Gnerl's weapons. Can put several tons of explosive material in the cockpit. Bigger boom.

Alternatively they may have another option for a "drone" army: A modified (or expanded capability) Manual Recall Beam found on the Flagship. Modified (expanded capability) to allow complex commands and combat actions to be sent to the mecha to operate w/o a pilot (essentially turning the stockpile of Zentraedi mecha into Invid Inorganics).

the regis does not seem to use inorganics, but the use of drone fighters especially would be an excellent idea. drone cannon fodder would help the survivability of the human and zentraedi pilots and troops. extra guns firing at the enemy will always be a good thing. if the Q-Gnerls have some explosives in them, then they might be effective against the invid's clam shell ships.

ShadowLogan wrote:[
Alternatively they may have another option for a "drone" army: A modified (or expanded capability) Manual Recall Beam found on the Flagship. Modified (expanded capability) to allow complex commands and combat actions to be sent to the mecha to operate w/o a pilot (essentially turning the stockpile of Zentraedi mecha into Invid Inorganics).

Ewwww...THat IS even more economical.
Big problem is, the Tirolians almost certainly would recognize the Recall Beam frequencies.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not to put a damper on this idea or anything, but according to the (2E) RPG AI use fell out of favor sometime in 2015 from the cancellation of the Wraith project that is linked with the Alpha program history.

Explain the Alpha drones in "Secret Route" then. Those are completed Alpha airframes, modded into drone fighters (based on what the Infopedia has to say on the matter). Unless they're operated entirely by remote control from the station we see in the manor (entirely possible, as the line art does show that it possesses a full cockpit control suite) they ought to have some kind of AI aboard... they're the predecessors of the Shadow drone, after all.

taalismn wrote:Big problem is, the Tirolians almost certainly would recognize the Recall Beam frequencies.

That doesn't mean the Masters can do anything about it. Or the UEDF/UEEF to take steps to protect against hacking. For all we know the Masters have their own backdoor into Zentraedi systems Terran/Zent. Alliance knows nothing about.

Seto wrote:Explain the Alpha drones in "Secret Route" then. Those are completed Alpha airframes, modded into drone fighters (based on what the Infopedia has to say on the matter). Unless they're operated entirely by remote control from the station we see in the manor (entirely possible, as the line art does show that it possesses a full cockpit control suite) they ought to have some kind of AI aboard... they're the predecessors of the Shadow drone, after all.

You know I don't view the "Secret Route" Drones as Alpha Drones given they are supposed to be an antique and use auto-pilot (dialogue on both), not an A.I. They may be connected to the Wraith Project which was a non-variable program that became connected to the Alpha.

While AI/Drones fell out of favor with the UEDF/UEEF in 2015, that does not mean articles are going to automatically be destroyed and not simply put into storage. Or a small number constructed for use. NOr does it stop the UEDF/UEEF from revisiting the technology at a later date. What it does do is limit UEDF/UEEF use of the technology in a given period (circa 2015).

ShadowLogan wrote:You know I don't view the "Secret Route" Drones as Alpha Drones given they are supposed to be an antique and use auto-pilot (dialogue on both), not an A.I.

The Infopedia does assert the existence of Alpha drones (in the Shadow Drone coverage), however, as does the OSM (also in the Unmanned Dark Legioss coverage).

ShadowLogan wrote:They may be connected to the Wraith Project which was a non-variable program that became connected to the Alpha.

The Wraith would have almost certainly looked more like the VF-X-6, which was supposedly based upon it. These are, from the visuals, completed and recognizable Alpha airframes with a Shadow Drone-style AI/camera setup in place of the cockpit canopy.

ShadowLogan wrote:While AI/Drones fell out of favor with the UEDF/UEEF in 2015, that does not mean articles are going to automatically be destroyed and not simply put into storage.

Or it means the RPG is inaccurate here... take yer pick.

Lost Seraph wrote:Of course, we'll ignore the fact that the Ghost 3000 is one of the most effective platforms in the RPG for killing stuff...

Not just in the RPG... those things were BRUTAL in the original Macross universe. So much so that they were still in use decades later.

I REALLY like the idea of turning the extra Zentraedi stuff into Ghosts.....


edit - though couldn't you just set up a remote control unit ala what we see in the secret route thus letting human pilots control the fighters bu not have to actually be IN the fighters?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Not just in the RPG... those things were BRUTAL in the original Macross universe. So much so that they were still in use decades later.

SIGH and my play group on Friday night has to face THREE of these QF-3000 Ghost bastards.... I am SOOO not looking forward to this.

Seto wrote:Or it means the RPG is inaccurate here... take yer pick.

No it doesn't. That part of the story arc is pretty sparse from a canon perspective so the RPG may be accurate. Drones are "hot" today, but back when RT/OSM was created Drones where not as hot an item, so they (HG/RT licensers) have to explain their absence somehow.

Seto wrote:The Wraith would have almost certainly looked more like the VF-X-6, which was supposedly based upon it. These are, from the visuals, completed and recognizable Alpha airframes with a Shadow Drone-style AI/camera setup in place of the cockpit canopy.

The transfer to a manned and variable program though would have resulted in changes to the design, so it is not a guarantee the "Wraith" is going to look like an Alpha. There is no reason for a ground-up Drone to have a pilot type cockpit bubble canopy for example.

ShadowLogan wrote:The transfer to a manned and variable program though would have resulted in changes to the design, so it is not a guarantee the "Wraith" is going to look like an Alpha. There is no reason for a ground-up Drone to have a pilot type cockpit bubble canopy for example.

That would depend on teh hardware required for the advanced AI they would likely be trying to use....look at the Movie Stealth (not a great movie to be sure but still...). That plane still had a fully functional cockpit relatively speaking and had some serious sized hardware for the AI. Just gives them more room to work with really.

sirkermittsg wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Not just in the RPG... those things were BRUTAL in the original Macross universe. So much so that they were still in use decades later.

SIGH and my play group on Friday night has to face THREE of these QF-3000 Ghost bastards.... I am SOOO not looking forward to this.

"You just add your collective asses kicked by a trio of toasters."

Well, Gnerl's refit to be AI's makes more sense than rebuilding the interiors to accommodate micronized pilots.

ShadowLogan wrote:No it doesn't. That part of the story arc is pretty sparse from a canon perspective so the RPG may be accurate. Drones are "hot" today, but back when RT/OSM was created Drones where not as hot an item, so they (HG/RT licensers) have to explain their absence somehow.

Drones weren't hot? Then why does each of the original three shows include AT LEAST one? Macross had its QF-3000 Ghost series, Southern Cross had the Glorie Military Police-issue Garm, and MOSPEADA had the Unmanned Legioss and the Unmanned Dark Legioss. Drones just got MORE prevalent in the Macross universe as time went on... listing all the examples would take a considerable span of time though.

ShadowLogan wrote:The transfer to a manned and variable program though would have resulted in changes to the design, so it is not a guarantee the "Wraith" is going to look like an Alpha. There is no reason for a ground-up Drone to have a pilot type cockpit bubble canopy for example.

That's my point, though... the Alpha drones we see, which we're told are antiques, are visibly identical to Alphas except for the drone-style cockpit block they share with the Shadow Drone. AI did not go away or go out of fashion, because Earth's still using AI tech in mecha developed in that period.

i think he means that in real life the interest in unmanned combat vehicles had not reached the levels you see today. you had some drone units in service in most real world military's, but they were mostly used either as target practice or as strategic recon. not really anything for combat or tactical recon like we are getting around to today.

combat Drones showed up in scifi alot yes, but they were not a main focus in the show.. usually more background items or occasionally used macguffins. for the most part they seemed to exist more for showing that the technology was actually more advanced than our own, since combat drones and simulated personality AI (even limited simulation like the Golem) was not yet possible in real life.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i think he means that in real life the interest in unmanned combat vehicles had not reached the levels you see today. [...]

Well, yes... but the point I'm tilting at here is that you don't need to explain the absence of something that is explicitly and categorically NOT absent in any of Robotech's sagas.

@jaymz
Never seen Stealth. But it really sounds like Hollywood "looks cool" or the plane in question is connected to manned status (either as an option, or past feature, etc) and not representative of a ground up drone aircraft. The only reason I could see putting in a cockpit like that would be if the use a drop-in pilot body, sort of like old BSG Cyclon fighters (really not familar w/new) or SW's Droid Tanks in Ep1.

@RSCF
But we don't really need to rebuild the interior completely for a micronized pilot/crew. Zentraedi (in general) apparently have a dislike for human mecha, which lead to the new Bioroid Interceptor, and supporting a micronized Zentraedi is much easier than one in giant form.

Seto wrote:Drones weren't hot? Then why does each of the original three shows include AT LEAST one? Macross had its QF-3000 Ghost series, Southern Cross had the Glorie Military Police-issue Garm, and MOSPEADA had the Unmanned Legioss and the Unmanned Dark Legioss. Drones just got MORE prevalent in the Macross universe as time went on... listing all the examples would take a considerable span of time though.

I am not saying that Drones aren't used (or can't be), but the uEDF/UEEF does appear to have a preference for manned platforms over drones in all 3 sagas. Drones also seem to have fallen out of favor by 2015 in RT, that doesn't mean they stopped using them or developing them, but their role/impact has been scaled back.

Seto wrote:That's my point, though... the Alpha drones we see, which we're told are antiques, are visibly identical to Alphas except for the drone-style cockpit block they share with the Shadow Drone. AI did not go away or go out of fashion, because Earth's still using AI tech in mecha developed in that period.

Your reply makes no sense. If the "Wraith" project did start out as a pure non-variable drone, its frame would have to be changed to make room for a human pilot. A drone can sustain more maneuvering forces than a piloted aircraft, so additional changes are needed to account for the pilot. Then you have to make allowances for the transformation gear.

Maxwell's drones don't prove anything about the history of drones in RT. It is an assumption that they started as Drones and are not retro-fitted into drone fighters at a later date (the canopy suggests this is a retro-fitted drone as opposed to starting as a drone). Nothing said in the episode establishes that those aircraft started out as drones, only their current status is as of such.

I would also add that those fighters are not credited to have an AI according to Maxwell's dialogue, they have nothing more advanced than an Auto-pilot. Which certainly doesn't require it to be treated as an AI.

Drones in Macross are typically used either as brainless adjutants to the main characters' mecha, or, if they have any brains, become threats to the 'romance' of the Valkyries doing aerial combat ballet. Macross/Robotech and the transformable fighter are the grail-epitome of the ultimate fighter-jock 'knight of the air'. 'Top Gun' doesn't even come close. You threaten that icon with replacement by a machine at your own peril.

In Robotech New Generation it allows Maxwell the black market sleaze to make a heroic gesture without actually putting himself in peril, and demonstrating that he's capable of a minimum of self-sacrifice in tossing away some of his bigger toys.

ShadowLogan wrote:Never seen Stealth. But it really sounds like Hollywood "looks cool" or the plane in question is connected to manned status (either as an option, or past feature, etc) and not representative of a ground up drone aircraft.

It's about 50% Macross Plus, and 50% Top Gun... but nowhere near as good as either. The "EDI" drone does, as you say, have a cockpit, though it's allegedly only there for maintenance purposes and/or emergencies and the craft was a drone design from the ground up. (Personally, I thought the movie was terrible, don't fail to miss it.)

ShadowLogan wrote:I am not saying that Drones aren't used (or can't be), but the uEDF/UEEF does appear to have a preference for manned platforms over drones in all 3 sagas.

A preference for manned platforms is one thing, drones being out of favor is something else entirely.

ShadowLogan wrote:Drones also seem to have fallen out of favor by 2015 in RT, that doesn't mean they stopped using them or developing them, but their role/impact has been scaled back.

Again, I don't think what we see in the show supports that... drones are, if anything, apparently in greater prominence in later sagas. The Garm used by the GMP is an unmanned land unit, and there's evidence of production Alpha drones going back at least as far as 2022. If they fell out of favor, why do we have evidence of decades of drone development which culminated in a fully autonomous variable drone?

ShadowLogan wrote:Your reply makes no sense. If the "Wraith" project did start out as a pure non-variable drone, its frame would have to be changed to make room for a human pilot.

Depends on the size of the AI module and its placement in the airframe. In the context of what's been done OSM-ly, my take would have to be that it's entirely possible that any conversion work done would be minimal, e.g. the manned Ghost from Macross 7 Trash.

ShadowLogan wrote:A drone can sustain more maneuvering forces than a piloted aircraft, so additional changes are needed to account for the pilot. Then you have to make allowances for the transformation gear.

IF ANY ONLY IF the drone was designed to operate under forces greater than a pilot could withstand. Macross may have reached that point with drones circa Macross Plus and the AIF-X-9/QF-X-4000 Ghost, but Robotech does not appear to have gone that way at all. The most advanced, high-spec drone in all of RT achieved only the exact same performance as a manned fighter.

ShadowLogan wrote:Maxwell's drones don't prove anything about the history of drones in RT. It is an assumption that they started as Drones and are not retro-fitted into drone fighters at a later date [...]

The existence of Alpha drones is explicitly confirmed in the "Shadow Drone" article on the Infopedia, and the episode guide explicitly confirms that Maxwell's planes ARE the aforementioned Alpha drones. It's immaterial whether or not those planes were drones at the time they were built, because VF/A-6 drone units are built around the same chassis as normal, manned VF/A-6 units. It still establishes the ongoing presence and development of drone units, going back to before the UEEF left Earth.

ShadowLogan wrote:I would also add that those fighters are not credited to have an AI according to Maxwell's dialogue, they have nothing more advanced than an Auto-pilot. Which certainly doesn't require it to be treated as an AI.

There are a number of possible explanations for that. Assuming Maxwell's father actually purchased those drones, rather than looting them from somewhere, the AI may not have been installed. If he purchased them legally, it would also go a long way toward explaining why they never fire on the Invid... Maxwell's may be unarmed as well. Maxwell may not be a trained expert on their technology either, so he may believe that the AI and autopilot are synonymous. (Really, we can make word salad out of the dialogue and other material to justify just about anything here.)

Seto wrote:A preference for manned platforms is one thing, drones being out of favor is something else entirely.

No it isn't.

Space Exploration has fallen out of favor at times, but still gets funded, performed, and technology developed. I don't see how "falling out of favor" would be any different for Drone technology with the available information.

Seto wrote:Depends on the size of the AI module and its placement in the airframe.

Remember by 2022 JANICE existed (Sent. OVA), so an AI module to install isn't going to be very big when you get rid of the extras form the Android body that can be replaced by hooking up to a mecha. Nor will an expendable AI require some of the hardware found in an Alpha for the pilot (Cyclone, ejector seat, physical control/displays, life-support).

Seto wrote:IF ANY ONLY IF the drone was designed to operate under forces greater than a pilot could withstand.

Why would the Wraith Project be concerned about a non-existent pilot when doing the design for an unmanned fighter? Pilot necessity only entered the picture later and would require changes to accommodate one.

Seto wrote:The existence of Alpha drones is explicitly confirmed in the "Shadow Drone" article on the Infopedia, and the episode guide explicitly confirms that Maxwell's planes ARE the aforementioned Alpha drones.

Actually the Shadow Drone article talks about "the concept behind the original Alpha Drone". It does not give an indication they actually saw use. I maintain those frames could be related to the Alpha, but aren't actually Alphas (we do see similar looking platforms elsewhere in the show that aren't connected). Given the canopy, they are also retro-fitted and not ground-up designs.

As for the Episode Guide it is known to get stuff wrong (just look at "Annie's Wedding" how the tribe worships the Invid, when they hate the Invid and worship a River God.)

Seto wrote:There are a number of possible explanations for that. Assuming Maxwell's father actually purchased those drones, rather than looting them from somewhere, the AI may not have been installed. If he purchased them legally, it would also go a long way toward explaining why they never fire on the Invid... Maxwell's may be unarmed as well. Maxwell may not be a trained expert on their technology either, so he may believe that the AI and autopilot are synonymous. (Really, we can make word salad out of the dialogue and other material to justify just about anything here.)

There are a lot of ways to explain the various factors relating to those fighters.

Given Maxwell's age I'm not sure how he could confuse AI and Auto-pilot, especially given the statement as his most prized possessions (and belonged to his father).

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote:Depends on the size of the AI module and its placement in the airframe.

Remember by 2022 JANICE existed (Sent. OVA), so an AI module to install isn't going to be very big when you get rid of the extras form the Android body that can be replaced by hooking up to a mecha.

Assuming, of course, that it's economical to manufacture an AI at Janice's form factor... that Janice remained a unique unit and that the entire cockpit block was apparently given over to the AI on the drone Alpha and Shadow Drone indicates that Janice's level of miniaturization may be either prohibitively expensive, or insufficiently durable for battlefield service.

ShadowLogan wrote:Why would the Wraith Project be concerned about a non-existent pilot when doing the design for an unmanned fighter? Pilot necessity only entered the picture later and would require changes to accommodate one.

You're assuming that the UEDF/UEEF engineers had the technology available to engineer a craft that exceeded the level of performance the human body could withstand. All indications there are to the negative, that performance in excess of the human body's tolerances would not be a concern because they weren't building any aircraft that exceeded what the body of a flesh and blood pilot could take.

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually the Shadow Drone article talks about "the concept behind the original Alpha Drone". It does not give an indication they actually saw use. I maintain those frames could be related to the Alpha, but aren't actually Alphas [...]

The Infopedia does maintain that those units are Alpha drones.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given Maxwell's age I'm not sure how he could confuse AI and Auto-pilot, especially given the statement as his most prized possessions (and belonged to his father).

Earth is somewhat... backward... under the Invid occupation. Off-worlders use energy small arms, but everyone on Earth uses chemical cartridge small arms when they're not using "imports" (salvage) from Mars. A lot of the time, whenever we see the cast run into locals who aren't friendly, they're brandishing revolvers that look to be right out of the old west. Or, at best, a pump-action shotgun loaded with solid slugs. (Rainy Boy's gun)

Seto wrote:Assuming, of course, that it's economical to manufacture an AI at Janice's form factor... that Janice remained a unique unit and that the entire cockpit block was apparently given over to the AI on the drone Alpha and Shadow Drone indicates that Janice's level of miniaturization may be either prohibitively expensive, or insufficiently durable for battlefield service.

How much of Janice's android body though is actually necessary AI hardware? And some of JANICE's AI hardware may not be needed for a combat platform, so while her AI version may not be economical to produce, that doesn't mean simplified version would be to.

There is no actual evidence on the size of the AI hardware in question in the 85ep. So to say it takes up the entire cockpit is wild speculation.

Seto wrote:You're assuming that the UEDF/UEEF engineers had the technology available to engineer a craft that exceeded the level of performance the human body could withstand. All indications there are to the negative, that performance in excess of the human body's tolerances would not be a concern because they weren't building any aircraft that exceeded what the body of a flesh and blood pilot could take.

We can do it today, why wouldn't they be able to do it in RT? As for demonstration, that just shows the pilots aren't pushing the frames beyond what their bodies can withstand. Which makes sense.

Seto wrote:Earth is somewhat... backward... under the Invid occupation

Earth may be backward, but Maxwell is old enough to have been alive years before the Occupation in RT (GCM IIRC not so much). So it is unlikely he would be confusing AI and Autopilot.

Seto wrote:The Infopedia does maintain that those units are Alpha drones.

Aren't you the one who says the Infopedia gets stuff wrong. No one in the episode actually calls them an Alpha Drone (or imply they are Alphas). For all we know the VFA-6 is not the first mecha to be known as "Alpha" (Beta, Condor both can refer to 2 related platforms, some of the names used for other platforms are also used by real world platforms: lightning, falcon), so a name is not proof.

Considering that Maxwell is shown with one set of controls in his techno-den, and we see the three drones maneuvering simulatneously in combat, it's a fair bet that they're running on more than just autopilot. Even though they're shot down in short order, they're not just buzzing around as missiel launch platforms for missile-spam, but are dogfighting the Invid. Now Maxwell MIGHT be swapping control between units on the fly, but I doubt it; it would be counter-productive.

odds are they've got an AI at least on par with the X-45 drones.. those can handle all the flight details themselves and can select targets and attack plans on their own.. they just need a human in the loop to do a go/no-go on whether they can actually use the weapons. they usually have human planned flight plans/waypoints as well.. though they could do most of that on their own.

that would let Maxwell plot out a flight plan, and then just tell the drones to fire when they found targets.

ShadowLogan wrote:How much of Janice's android body though is actually necessary AI hardware? And some of JANICE's AI hardware may not be needed for a combat platform, so while her AI version may not be economical to produce, that doesn't mean simplified version would be to.

There's no guarantee that merely eliminating unnecessary processing areas would make Janice's AI combat-ready. Janice is kinda fragile, and an AI unit installed on a fighter would need to be robust enough to withstand the hard knocks which come with the job. Likewise, miniaturization may be an issue... it may not be viable to manufacture AIs as compact as Janice for combat use, either from a cost or materials perspective, hence the use of a larger, less intricate system. Or, as Janice was fully autonomous and combat-ready autonomous AI wasn't available until 2043-2044, it may simply be that Janice's AI tech was not stable enough for combat use, or that whatever system Lang used wasn't viable for large-scale production.

ShadowLogan wrote:There is no actual evidence on the size of the AI hardware in question in the 85ep. So to say it takes up the entire cockpit is wild speculation.

The animation is not the sole source of information, you know that.

The Infopedia makes a special point of mentioning the replacement of the canopy with the area in question, though it just mentions the sensor window in front. The OSM, which Robotech's official continuity and the RPG rely heavily upon, is more precise... that block is the AI system, under an armored cover.

ShadowLogan wrote:We can do it today, why wouldn't they be able to do it in RT? As for demonstration, that just shows the pilots aren't pushing the frames beyond what their bodies can withstand. Which makes sense.

Just because something is possible in the real world doesn't mean it's done in Robotech. The military in RT, particularly in the latter two sagas, indulges in tons of pants-on-head stupidity. Even so, nothing we ever see in the Robotech TV series (or any other official canon RT title) even suggests that the craft are capable of performance levels exceeding what's safe for humans. As a point of fact, the Infopedia explicitly confirms that the drones possess identical performance to their manned counterparts, and we know from AotSC that even the Super Shadow Fighter, which pushed the Alpha's airframe all the way to its design limits, did not exceed the tolerances of the human body.

ShadowLogan wrote:Aren't you the one who says the Infopedia gets stuff wrong.

If there's evidence that it's wrong. In this case, there isn't. It's very clearly a stock Alpha fighter, and very clearly has a drone cockpit arrangement like the Shadow drone. The Infopedia jives perfectly with the OSM on this, wherein the planes in question are referred to as "Unmanned Legioss".

taalism wrote:Considering that Maxwell is shown with one set of controls in his techno-den, and we see the three drones maneuvering simulatneously in combat, it's a fair bet that they're running on more than just autopilot. Even though they're shot down in short order, they're not just buzzing around as missiel launch platforms for missile-spam, but are dogfighting the Invid. Now Maxwell MIGHT be swapping control between units on the fly, but I doubt it; it would be counter-productive.

That maneuvering could simply be collision avoidance as I really don't see that as dogfighting.

Seto wrote:There's no guarantee that merely eliminating unnecessary processing areas would make Janice's AI combat-ready...

No there isn't, but we have to remember JANICE is in android body, and it is unlikely that the entire thing is the AI hardware. So we are talking about AI hardware that is much smaller than an adult human being. We also don't know what makes the system fragile/unstable and if those elements are necessary for a combat AI.

That a more robust system may be larger than JANICE's actual hardware is possible, but it is unlikely they are going to be that much difference in scale to needing more volume than a full android (in which case why not mass produce JANICE). Production cost is usually associated with units produced, so mass production should lower the cost of the expensive option. Granted there are other factors to consider that go into cost (like materials), but those are certainly manageable.

Seto wrote:The animation is not the sole source of information, you know that.

But it is at the top of the pecking order supposedly (in actual practice...). You also know I don't apply what the OSM has to say on matters. In this case the AI hardware could be seen as accurate for the OSM version as it was written for that self-contained universe. It didn't take into consideration factors of available technology from previous sagas that exist in RT (or other story arcs that post date them in production but pre-date them in the timeline).

Even the narrator says the mecha are flying by auto-pilot, it isn't just Maxwell (after reviewing the scene when the drones take action).

Seto wrote:Just because something is possible in the real world doesn't mean it's done in Robotech.

There is nothing to say or show they can't in this instance.

That the Shadow Drone has the same limits as the manned version really says the drone design is based on a manned platform, not the other way around. The SSF is another example, yes they take the frame to the limit, but the pilot is still in the loop placing limits on what can be done to that design. So pointing to the manned examples (and those few unmanned examples based on their platforms) doesn't show that a pure drone design cann't do it.

Seto wrote:If there's evidence that it's wrong. In this case, there isn't. It's very clearly a stock Alpha fighter, and very clearly has a drone cockpit arrangement like the Shadow drone.

I disagree that it is clearly a stock Alpha Fighter as we are shown only limited view angles. Nor is it shown to transform, so it could be a non-transforming relative (VF-X-4/Conbat can be seen that way, and Carpenter's fighter does share some similarities to the Alpha design). And the evidence comes from the show itself, no one identifies them as Alpha Fighters or Alpha Drones.

That Shadow Drone cockpit may simply be the standard for retro-fitted manned fighter-to-drone. It isn't like we have a large pool of examples to point to in the animation.

ShadowLogan wrote:That the Shadow Drone has the same limits as the manned version really says the drone design is based on a manned platform, not the other way around. The SSF is another example, yes they take the frame to the limit, but the pilot is still in the loop placing limits on what can be done to that design. So pointing to the manned examples (and those few unmanned examples based on their platforms) doesn't show that a pure drone design cann't do it.

I want to point out that many if not most aircraft can easily exceed the capabilities of the man inside of them. what happens is the man blacks out BEFORE the failure point of the aircraft what ever that may be. it is not unheard of for a man to pull something like a 4 to 7 G maneuver, black out, and then wake up prior to crashing and the air craft is fine. A computer would be able to push a fighter craft much further in maneuvering then a man could. I would suggest that veritechs with their advanced materials etc could be pushed even further then a regular fighter aircraft such as a modern f18 can be

ShadowLogan wrote:

taalism wrote:Considering that Maxwell is shown with one set of controls in his techno-den, and we see the three drones maneuvering simulatneously in combat, it's a fair bet that they're running on more than just autopilot. Even though they're shot down in short order, they're not just buzzing around as missiel launch platforms for missile-spam, but are dogfighting the Invid. Now Maxwell MIGHT be swapping control between units on the fly, but I doubt it; it would be counter-productive.

That maneuvering could simply be collision avoidance as I really don't see that as dogfighting.

Considering how Invid fight, collision avoidance IS dogfighting.

taalismn wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

taalism wrote:Considering that Maxwell is shown with one set of controls in his techno-den, and we see the three drones maneuvering simulatneously in combat, it's a fair bet that they're running on more than just autopilot. Even though they're shot down in short order, they're not just buzzing around as missiel launch platforms for missile-spam, but are dogfighting the Invid. Now Maxwell MIGHT be swapping control between units on the fly, but I doubt it; it would be counter-productive.

That maneuvering could simply be collision avoidance as I really don't see that as dogfighting.

Considering how Invid fight, collision avoidance IS dogfighting.

Howe true that is!

ShadowLogan wrote:No there isn't, but we have to remember JANICE is in android body, and it is unlikely that the entire thing is the AI hardware. So we are talking about AI hardware that is much smaller than an adult human being. We also don't know what makes the system fragile/unstable and if those elements are necessary for a combat AI.

Based on Prelude, Janice's original body wasn't all that robust... but her processing elements were at least either in her head or upper torso, since ripping the lower half off didn't slow her down much. Extras like cooling systems, protected power systems, enhanced sensors, may account for the increase in mass as well.

ShadowLogan wrote:That a more robust system may be larger than JANICE's actual hardware is possible, but it is unlikely they are going to be that much difference in scale to needing more volume than a full android (in which case why not mass produce JANICE).

Unless, of course, we're talking about a difference in capability. Janice was originally designed (per RT2, which may not be viable any longer) as something resembling a spy. Her performance wasn't expected to be outside the norms for a civilian's lifestyle. Janice EM2 was built as a human-Haydonite liaison, and thus wouldn't need performance outside the norms for a civilian either. The official RT materials make mention of a sensor window in the AI canopy module, suggesting the AI may have access to its own dedicated sensor suite to navigate the plane, in addition to onboard instrumentation.

ShadowLogan wrote:You also know I don't apply what the OSM has to say on matters. In this case the AI hardware could be seen as accurate for the OSM version as it was written for that self-contained universe.

In this case, you can't get around it because Robotech material confirms its accuracy.

ShadowLogan wrote:Even the narrator says the mecha are flying by auto-pilot, it isn't just Maxwell (after reviewing the scene when the drones take action).

Considering we don't see the drones actually fight, this may be accurate... he may have simply set a course and speed for the drones to approach the Invid and left it at that.

ShadowLogan wrote:There is nothing to say or show they can't in this instance.

Except, y'know, the complete absence of supporting evidence that they can...

sirkermittsg wrote:I want to point out that many if not most aircraft can easily exceed the capabilities of the man inside of them. [...] A computer would be able to push a fighter craft much further in maneuvering then a man could. I would suggest that veritechs with their advanced materials etc could be pushed even further then a regular fighter aircraft such as a modern f18 can be

Unfortunately, after the Macross Saga the fighter designs of Robotech are pretty shoddy... they're slow, they're not very aerodynamic, they have minimal control surfaces, no thrust vectoring to speak of, and a variety of other significant shortcomings as a result of their having been designed more as a means of transporting a big, blocky robot around than serving as an actual fighter aircraft. About all they have in their favor is that (where information is available) they have markedly superior thrust to weight ratios compared to modern fighters (though invariably less than the VF-1's). They're really not built to the same rules or expectations as a modern fighter, so assuming they would be designed to exceed the tolerances of the human body the way a modern plane could is not a safe assumption.

As far as a computer being able to push the airframe harder than a human, drone aircraft development seems to lag WAY behind the modern day in Robotech, for the most part. It takes them decades to get far enough to have a drone that's able to handle a VF airframe well enough to fight like a junior wingman, so pushing the envelope is probably right out.

fighter aircraft have been able to exceed the capabilities of their pilot's since the 1930's. so unless you want to argue that Alpha's have inferior flight envelope to the P-40, i think that line of reasoning is a non-starter..

sirkermittsg wrote:I want to point out that many if not most aircraft can easily exceed the capabilities of the man inside of them. [...] A computer would be able to push a fighter craft much further in maneuvering then a man could. I would suggest that veritechs with their advanced materials etc could be pushed even further then a regular fighter aircraft such as a modern f18 can be

I am aware of that, but the organic pilot is still the weak link in the chain here, and it is a very critical one.

Seto wrote:Based on Prelude, Janice's original body wasn't all that robust...

But that is the overall Android Body, the actual AI hardware was still functional even with half the body ripped away. So it does posses a degree of robust ness. I've got old headphones where the material covering of the speaker has torn away, but they speakers still work. I've also got some old (actually those are the newest pair) computer speakers that work, though the stand for one of them has busted so many times on them they can't stand correctly (or at all). Overall these examples don't appear to be as robust overall, but aspects of them are more robust.

Given the cooling system issue would be solved by adapting the android cooling system. Power Supply, maybe, but then they could give it a dedicated PSU based on the android form. Nor do I see a need to give it special sensors, when the Alpha's existing ones should be up to the task of subbing in for the android. If you did, again they could adapt the android sensors. All of this shouldn't add any extra volume over a baseline human form, and would certainly allow them to remove unnecessary material to make a smaller and more compact "cockpit" as you don't need an ejector seat, physical controls, leg room, etc.

Janice's origins as a spy though would still require her to fight potentially. If we are talking old versions, one has to consider that JANICE was reprogrammed to be a VF pilot (Novels, 1E RPG, not sure about comics nor ART3 outline may have to say on the matter), and that was after her spy days (which she still did in the novels). And MK1 Janice per Prelude is able to operate a Cyclone (picks up Baker in combat zone after he gets shot down) in motorcycle mode, so who knows how flexible the Mk1 really is with the roles it can perform in any of it's incarnations.

Seto wrote:The official RT materials make mention of a sensor window in the AI canopy module, suggesting the AI may have access to its own dedicated sensor suite to navigate the plane, in addition to onboard instrumentation.

Which makes no sense as the AI should be able to use the existing Alphas sensors to perceive the environment. If the UEDF can trade FLIR sensors for Lasers, then the Alpha should be able to do the reverse (and it isn't like those jet lasers get used much). There really isn't a reason for the Drone AI canopy to retain the same shape beyond keeping minimal changes to the airframe, but again that would point toward the Drone versions come after a manned program and not the reverse as the RPG alludes to (and nothing in the infopedia suggests which came first IIRC).

Seto wrote:Considering we don't see the drones actually fight, this may be accurate... he may have simply set a course and speed for the drones to approach the Invid and left it at that.

Which would make gauging their actual combat effectiveness difficult if they are being used as nothing more than expensive glorified "clay pigeons" for an Invid aeriel skeet-shoot.

Seto wrote:Except, y'know, the complete absence of supporting evidence that they can..

Which means we are at impasse as there is also a complete lack of evidence that they cann't. Real-life precedent says they should though.

ShadowLogan wrote:But that is the overall Android Body, the actual AI hardware was still functional even with half the body ripped away.

"Functional" may be a bit generous, as Dr. Lang was apparently worried that parts of Janice's original self had been lost in the situation that cost her her original body. Adapting technology from Janice to a drone would require that the tech she consists of be economical to produce... and with our chief example being an AI unit that apparently requires enough room that it completely replaces the cockpit area on the Alpha airframe, that seems unlikely.

ShadowLogan wrote:Janice's origins as a spy though would still require her to fight potentially. If we are talking old versions, one has to consider that JANICE was reprogrammed to be a VF pilot [...]

I'd stick to what's in the old comics, principally, since those are what influenced Prelude.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which makes no sense as the AI should be able to use the existing Alphas sensors to perceive the environment.

A fair bit of the Alpha's situational awareness relied upon the pilot's own senses... so it's not unreasonable that they would replace that with various optical cameras and the like.

ShadowLogan wrote:If the UEDF can trade FLIR sensors for Lasers, then the Alpha should be able to do the reverse (and it isn't like those jet lasers get used much).

Please note the hardware difference there... the VF-1's FLIR blisters are an external mount, giving the cameras a decent-ish arc of view. The Alpha's lasers are recessed mounts.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which would make gauging their actual combat effectiveness difficult if they are being used as nothing more than expensive glorified "clay pigeons" for an Invid aeriel skeet-shoot.

Quite... though as they were apparently sold into civilian hands, those specific units may never have been combat-ready to begin with.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which means we are at impasse as there is also a complete lack of evidence that they cann't. Real-life precedent says they should though.

But, as we've demonstrated, real-life precedent doesn't hold water here because it contradicts what we're being told and shown.

Lost Seraph wrote:An AI drone fighter wouldn't use Janice's AI, as it's too unique to her and Dr. Lang.

Well, to be fair, the first Janice body's AI hardware was a unique development of Dr. Lang... the replacement was something that he'd apparently jointly developed with the Haydonites, as she contains Haydonite technology. The leaked outline from RTSC Part II suggests that Janice isn't just presenting a convincing imitation of sentience, she's a fully sentient AI that can experience the full range of human emotion including love... and that's probably not something you want to install on drone aircraft.

Lost Seraph wrote:Given that we have three AI drones counting the Shadow Drone fighter, the Golem, and the Ghost, they're going to use the AI that's designed for space and air based combat. You slap the Ghost fighter AI into the Gnerl pod after making adjustments, and poofski, new usable drone figher.

Pretty much, and between Robotech and the OSM for both Macross and MOSPEADA, installing an AI aboard craft originally intended for a manned pilot (e.g. the Unmanned Legioss/Alpha Drone, Neo Glaug, etc.), it really can be THAT simple. It'd be a great way to use any surplus Gnerls discovered after the Expeditionary forces took everything that wasn't nailed down and/or on fire.

Seto wrote:Adapting technology from Janice to a drone would require that the tech she consists of be economical to produce... and with our chief example being an AI unit that apparently requires enough room that it completely replaces the cockpit area on the Alpha airframe, that seems unlikely.

Well economics though can come from scale of production.

The cockpit area though is OSM based technology, JANICE-MK1 technology was not a factor when the Dark Legois (sp) Drone was created. That's the problem with the OSM, it really doesn't take into consideration all of the technology that would be available in a Robotech setting.

Seto wrote:I'd stick to what's in the old comics, principally, since those are what influenced Prelude.

Don't have the old comics. Not interested in them either.

Seto wrote:A fair bit of the Alpha's situational awareness relied upon the pilot's own senses... so it's not unreasonable that they would replace that with various optical cameras and the like

And the Alpha doesn't have optical cameras and the like already installed they could take advantage of?

Seto wrote:But, as we've demonstrated, real-life precedent doesn't hold water here because it contradicts what we're being told and shown.

I disagree. If this was pure fantasy setting you would be right, but this is a science fiction/fantasy so real-life precedent does have a place.

ShadowLogan wrote:The cockpit area though is OSM based technology, JANICE-MK1 technology was not a factor when the Dark Legois (sp) Drone was created.

This is, of course, an assertion based on the specious assumption that technology developed for Janice would have been suitable or economical enough for use in an unmanned combat mecha.

ShadowLogan wrote:That's the problem with the OSM, it really doesn't take into consideration all of the technology that would be available in a Robotech setting.

If that's a problem with the OSM, it's a problem for the official Robotech material too... as that likewise does not take into consideration the technological advances represented by Janice. We could easily take this to mean that development towards Janice's AI was unsuitable or impractical for use in unmanned fighters, or that Dr. Lang refused to develop Janice's AI into something that could be weaponized.

ShadowLogan wrote:And the Alpha doesn't have optical cameras and the like already installed they could take advantage of?

As far as canon Robotech sources go, there's precious little information about the sensor suites installed aboard ANY mecha from the series... which is why TPTB tend to say "Just go with what the OSM says". Unlike the Macross OSM, "sensors" is as specific as Robotech sources usually get. Obviously the Alpha had some kind of camera system in the monitor turret (head), but the available angles may have been less than ideal in fighter configuration, hence the choice to install a separate sensor "window" in the cockpit block for the unmanned version.

ShadowLogan wrote:I disagree. If this was pure fantasy setting you would be right, but this is a science fiction/fantasy so real-life precedent does have a place.

You can disagree all you like, but it won't change the simple truth that Robotech does not keep faith with real-world precedents in technology or military affairs. There are plenty of in-universe acknowledgements of bad design choices too, like the Spartas hover tank's open cockpit. The steady deterioration of capability in each subsequent generation of mecha is another great example.