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Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:Demigods have 1,000-4,000 year lifespans (1d4x1000?) Godlings have the 50,000 (But since neither one can attach a Maxi-Killer its sort of moot.....)

Why can't they? If Brodkil and Gargoyles can, I'd think the Godlings and Demigods could as well.

/Sub

Where does it say that Brodkil and Gargoyles can?
Because on page 54 of Juicer Uprising it says

Juicer Uprisings wrote: "...Shapeshifters, major or master psychics, practitioners of magic, creatures of magic, and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

Which sort of rules out Brodkil, Grgoyles, Godlings, and Demigods......

Mack wrote:Take a Hawrk-ka RCC (Atlantis p75) which is completely immune to magic.
Add the Maxi-Killer (aka Bio-Wizard Juicer augmentation) from Juicer Uprisings, p53.

The combo is expressly permitted on JU p54, and you get a warrior with:
- 4D4x10 plus 2D4x10+60 MDC (average of 210)
- Additional natural armor of 120 MDC
- Supernatural PS around 28 (average rolls)
- Supernatural PE
- Can fly around 135 (speed attribute, not mph)
- Good natural abilities (nightvision, etc)
- Is (strangely) impervious to magic
- And "love to hunt and kill more than anything else."

Hmm, so despite the word "Bio-Wizard", its not actually magic...its more like Invid Genesis Pit technology. Has to be, cause Hawrk-ka's are clearly listed as to being able to be augmented. Rifts Atlantis also hints it could be a technology instead of a magic.

Yet another parallel between the Invid and Splugorth.

eliakon wrote:Where does it say that Brodkil and Gargoyles can?
Because on page 54 of Juicer Uprising it says

Juicer Uprisings wrote: "...Shapeshifters, major or master psychics, practitioners of magic, creatures of magic, and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

Which sort of rules out Brodkil, Grgoyles, Godlings, and Demigods......

I'd say your conjecture about Brodkil and Gargoyles is wrong.

Rifts World Book 10: Juicer Uprising, Page 16 wrote:Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-Wizard Juicers described elsewhere).

There's more there, but that's the meat of it. Gargoyles and Brodkil can become Maxi-Killers. My thoughts on Demigods and Godlings is conjecture, but I don't think they'd be restricted more than gargoyles and Brodkil. I'd say that one's a GM's call (though admittedly, the item below that on Supernatural Beings leans toward forbidding it for them).

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:Where does it say that Brodkil and Gargoyles can?
Because on page 54 of Juicer Uprising it says

Juicer Uprisings wrote: "...Shapeshifters, major or master psychics, practitioners of magic, creatures of magic, and supernatural beings cannot undergo this treatment."

Which sort of rules out Brodkil, Grgoyles, Godlings, and Demigods......

I'd say your conjecture about Brodkil and Gargoyles is wrong.

Rifts World Book 10: Juicer Uprising, Page 16 wrote:Gargoyles and Brodkil: Although these beings have only minor supernatural attributes, the only place where a Juicer process that works for them has been developed is Atlantis (see the Bio-Wizard Juicers described elsewhere).

There's more there, but that's the meat of it. Gargoyles and Brodkil can become Maxi-Killers. My thoughts on Demigods and Godlings is conjecture, but I don't think they'd be restricted more than gargoyles and Brodkil. I'd say that one's a GM's call (though admittedly, the item below that on Supernatural Beings leans toward forbidding it for them).

/Sub

And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

eliakon wrote:And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

Really? There is only one Bio-Wizard Juicer process mentioned in any book and you're seriously going to claim that the reference might not be to the Maxi-Killer process? So, really?

I've got better things to do than spend my time properly addressing how absolutely ridiculous that idea is.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

Really? There is only one Bio-Wizard Juicer process mentioned in any book and you're seriously going to claim that the reference might not be to the Maxi-Killer process? So, really?

I've got better things to do than spend my time properly addressing how absolutely ridiculous that idea is.

/Sub

Well since the process described does not match the splat....yes it could be.
Or it could be a unique exception.
Like I said. Either these two races get a pass from the class restriction of "no supernatural beings" or there is a second bio-wizard process that has been developed specifically for these races. Neither option though would allow anything ELSE to become a bio-wizard juicer.

I just put together an Altess Armoria officer (used a slightly modded CAF FO as the template but reflecting the fluff on Altess) so he's not quite as rude or snobbish a Noble OCC but "not as" is in relative terms LOL but when the hat drops and its time to play rough he's hell on wheels. Between the natural abilities and bonuses of the Altess and good military training PLUS top-of-the-line Naruni gear and other tidbits that the absurdly rich can afford he's actually shaping up to be one of the groups' heavies.

Well bio wizardry is some sort of twisted soul tw magic and juicers run on drugs. So the maxi killer must be a juicer running on magically created potions or some such.

When you consider how delicate drug dosages are the bio comp is already fine tuning itself to the race and the individual so there must be something about those specific races that allow them to get maxxed up. The whole categorization system is loosely defined anyway, so unless the gm wants to do something I always consider augmentations to be impossible unless they are explicitly listed as allowed.

This follows much of the same false logic Palladium throws at us with other topics as well, such as, what really is an exoskeleton, power armor, or robot? You ask 10 people, and you get 10 different opinions, all back with sources which prove their argument.

I see this being the same kind of debate. In fairness, Brodkil and Gargoyles are classified as sub-demons, some strange category which are not humanoid, nor supernatural creature, or at least not close enough to being a lesser demon to qualify to be a "supernatural being". They can be thought of as just an alien race, no different or stranger than the stuff in Aliens Unlimited. They offer no real supernatural abilities other than being MDC and supernatural level strength (brodkil can turn invisible), but really, thats no different than a Grackle Tooth or Rahu-Man (and other true giants), neither of which are supernatural beings or CoM either. Both Brodkil and Gargoyles (and their sub-demon cousins the Daemonix) can not only benefit from cybernetics and bionics, but from MOM implants as well (sans Daemonix...that we know of), something that traditionally is reserved for non-supernaturals as well. Sub-demons are some strange hybrid, anomaly.

Since page 16 clearly says they can be Maxi-Killers and page 54 only lists Supernatural Creatures as not being able to (And lack of Palladium definition as to what a Supernatural Creature is), I believe its safe to say they can receive, and accept, the procedure. I'd extend that to all sub-demons, Daemonix and Vyarnect included.

eliakon wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

Really? There is only one Bio-Wizard Juicer process mentioned in any book and you're seriously going to claim that the reference might not be to the Maxi-Killer process? So, really?

I've got better things to do than spend my time properly addressing how absolutely ridiculous that idea is.

/Sub

Well since the process described does not match the splat....yes it could be.
Or it could be a unique exception.
Like I said. Either these two races get a pass from the class restriction of "no supernatural beings" or there is a second bio-wizard process that has been developed specifically for these races. Neither option though would allow anything ELSE to become a bio-wizard juicer.

It specifically states they are an exception. I have no idea what kind of intellectual gymnastics you are using to think otherwise.

At least one other person is willing to read the rules.

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

Really? There is only one Bio-Wizard Juicer process mentioned in any book and you're seriously going to claim that the reference might not be to the Maxi-Killer process? So, really?

I've got better things to do than spend my time properly addressing how absolutely ridiculous that idea is.

/Sub

Well since the process described does not match the splat....yes it could be.
Or it could be a unique exception.
Like I said. Either these two races get a pass from the class restriction of "no supernatural beings" or there is a second bio-wizard process that has been developed specifically for these races. Neither option though would allow anything ELSE to become a bio-wizard juicer.

It specifically states they are an exception. I have no idea what kind of intellectual gymnastics you are using to think otherwise.

No it says they are an exception to the "no juicers" rule. It says nothing about ALSO being an exception to the rules of the Bio-Wizard process that they are supposed to undergoing.

Kagashi wrote:This follows much of the same false logic Palladium throws at us with other topics as well, such as, what really is an exoskeleton, power armor, or robot? You ask 10 people, and you get 10 different opinions, all back with sources which prove their argument.

I see this being the same kind of debate. In fairness, Brodkil and Gargoyles are classified as sub-demons, some strange category which are not humanoid, nor supernatural creature, or at least not close enough to being a lesser demon to qualify to be a "supernatural being". They can be thought of as just an alien race, no different or stranger than the stuff in Aliens Unlimited. They offer no real supernatural abilities other than being MDC and supernatural level strength (brodkil can turn invisible), but really, thats no different than a Grackle Tooth or Rahu-Man (and other true giants), neither of which are supernatural beings or CoM either. Both Brodkil and Gargoyles (and their sub-demon cousins the Daemonix) can not only benefit from cybernetics and bionics, but from MOM implants as well (sans Daemonix...that we know of), something that traditionally is reserved for non-supernaturals as well. Sub-demons are some strange hybrid, anomaly.

Since page 16 clearly says they can be Maxi-Killers and page 54 only lists Supernatural Creatures as not being able to (And lack of Palladium definition as to what a Supernatural Creature is), I believe its safe to say they can receive, and accept, the procedure. I'd extend that to all sub-demons, Daemonix and Vyarnect included.

Hades is pretty explicit Pg 32 "They are Sub-Demons, supernatural beings with a limited range of powers, magic and intelligence." That is about as clear as one can get on the subject of "are sub-demons supernatural beings" I would say.....

eliakon wrote:

Kagashi wrote:This follows much of the same false logic Palladium throws at us with other topics as well, such as, what really is an exoskeleton, power armor, or robot? You ask 10 people, and you get 10 different opinions, all back with sources which prove their argument.

I see this being the same kind of debate. In fairness, Brodkil and Gargoyles are classified as sub-demons, some strange category which are not humanoid, nor supernatural creature, or at least not close enough to being a lesser demon to qualify to be a "supernatural being". They can be thought of as just an alien race, no different or stranger than the stuff in Aliens Unlimited. They offer no real supernatural abilities other than being MDC and supernatural level strength (brodkil can turn invisible), but really, thats no different than a Grackle Tooth or Rahu-Man (and other true giants), neither of which are supernatural beings or CoM either. Both Brodkil and Gargoyles (and their sub-demon cousins the Daemonix) can not only benefit from cybernetics and bionics, but from MOM implants as well (sans Daemonix...that we know of), something that traditionally is reserved for non-supernaturals as well. Sub-demons are some strange hybrid, anomaly.

Since page 16 clearly says they can be Maxi-Killers and page 54 only lists Supernatural Creatures as not being able to (And lack of Palladium definition as to what a Supernatural Creature is), I believe its safe to say they can receive, and accept, the procedure. I'd extend that to all sub-demons, Daemonix and Vyarnect included.

Hades is pretty explicit Pg 32 "They are Sub-Demons, supernatural beings with a limited range of powers, magic and intelligence." That is about as clear as one can get on the subject of "are sub-demons supernatural beings" I would say.....

Good point. However, I still cannot see how you can debate the clear exception of Gargoyles and Brodkil being exceptions to being able to receive the treatment. Page 16 is just as clear. Robots...Power Armor...Exoskeleton. There will be no end to the debate since there are two clear...contradicting canon statements.

eliakon wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

eliakon wrote:And the Page 16 quote doesn't even explicitly state that the specific Maxi-killer process works, just a bio wizard process. So either they are exceptions to the rule of 'no supernatural beings' or there is a different, unstated augmentation for them.....

Really? There is only one Bio-Wizard Juicer process mentioned in any book and you're seriously going to claim that the reference might not be to the Maxi-Killer process? So, really?

I've got better things to do than spend my time properly addressing how absolutely ridiculous that idea is.

/Sub

Well since the process described does not match the splat....yes it could be.
Or it could be a unique exception.
Like I said. Either these two races get a pass from the class restriction of "no supernatural beings" or there is a second bio-wizard process that has been developed specifically for these races. Neither option though would allow anything ELSE to become a bio-wizard juicer.

It specifically states they are an exception. I have no idea what kind of intellectual gymnastics you are using to think otherwise.

No it says they are an exception to the "no juicers" rule. It says nothing about ALSO being an exception to the rules of the Bio-Wizard process that they are supposed to undergoing.

It notes that only the Splugorth have developed a method to make it so they can be one and specifically directs you to the Bio-Wizard Juicer for the notes on them.

/Sub

Can you guys stop thread jacking.....

I like Faustian Mind Bleeders and Psi Slayers that become T-men.

Yes, and sorry.

Wolfen Cyber Knight.
I rolled one up recently to refresh myself with the character creation process.
He has a TW Jammer and a Xiticix longsword, so he can disable an enemy's weapon and close in for hand to hand.