Anti-CS .....in here please

[Vrykolas2k]

The only reason Tolkeen lost was the author(s) wanted it that way. The only reason the CS is the way it is and seemingly undefeatable is because that's the way the writer(s) want it. Has absolutely nothing to do with reality. The CS has unlimited resources, man-power, equipment, etc. While the rest of the other organizations are under written, IMO, and will always fail against the CS. And as I have stated in other threads, magic and magic users are, in all RPGs, way under designed and weak compared to others and other powers. All the saving throws for magic suck in all RPGs.

That's all IMO and my intent is not to insult any of the writers for Palladium, it is just the way I feel. And I do apologize if anyone takes offense. I have the greatest respect for all Palladium staff and writers. (I wish I could write as good). Just using my freedom of speech.

Big Bob............................

Well, I do think the CS should have beaten Tolkeen... but Holmes and Co. would have been bug-food, and the CS would have been in a world of hurt until they could replace all of the soldiers they lost, not to mention vehicles, skelebots, and dog-boys.
Of course, they had a million SAMAS in storage, so all they'd need are pilots I guess.
Some of the stuff the CS are just given is a touch much. Resources...

[bigbobsr6000]

Look dude, I'm well aware of what a pyrrhic victory is. That's kinda why I chose that term. What I'm saying is that I've never read a single historical account where one force completely wiped out another but itself was destroyed as well. My point being that if you have such overwhelming power as to completely annihilate your opponent, your opponent most definitely does not have the power to hurt you in the same fashion.

And you won't read about one either, cause that is not what Pyrrhic Victory means "......where one force completely wiped out another but itself was destroyed as well."

It means: "Pyrrhic Victory" Definition: In 281 B.C., King Pyrrhus of Epirus (c. 318 - 272) landed on the southern Italian shore with 20 elephants and 25,000-30,000 men to defend his fellow Greek speakers (in Tarentum of Magna Graecia) against Roman domination. While Pyrrhus won the first two battles, he lost a large number of his men (and ultimately, the war).
The term Pyrrhic Victory comes from these devastating battles.

A Pyrrhic victory is so called after the Greek king Pyrrhus, who, after suffering heavy losses in defeating the Romans in 279 B.C., said to those sent to congratulate him, "Another such victory over the Romans and we are undone."

Pyrrhic victory \PIR-ik\, noun: A victory achieved at great or excessive cost; a ruinous victory.

Pyrrhic victory NOUN: A victory that is offset by staggering losses.

Pyrrhic victory noun Definition: bitter victory: a victory won at such great cost to the victor that it is tantamount to a defeat.

From the definitions I have found, there is no mention of "one force completely wiped out another but itself was destroyed as well." Just staggering losses.

Hope this helps................

[Jerell]

I think the CS may actually be needed to kill the bugs... That and without them I have a feeling mankind would be dominated by Xenos/D-bee types, and creatures of magic, or thinking machines for the most part anyway.

[Lenwen]

I think the CS may actually be needed to kill the bugs... That and without them I have a feeling mankind would be dominated by Xenos/D-bee types, and creatures of magic, or thinking machines for the most part anyway.

I do not think mankind would be dominated ..
I think of NGR , FQ , Tundra Rangers , Republicans , Japan , an well at LEAST 10 more that I cant honestly think of right now that could with relative ease take the mantle of mankind from the CS .

The only thing that would change in the world if the CS was to fall would be simple . The FQ would more then likely fullfill the Alliance proposed by NGR to the CS instead of the CS ..

Certain city/states would then also start thier own forword motion of expanding where they were not once able to due to the CS .

The Xitixic would most assuredly expand beyond thier current territory and in my personal opinion they would be incredibly hard to defeat an in my estimation it would take nuthing short of a continental push from virtually everyone to stop them or to even push them back ..

-Lenwen.

[Vrykolas2k]

Kinda funny to watch people give FQ some kind of free pass when FQ is written as being just as bad, if not worse, than the rest of the CS when it came to anything non-human. It went to the point where it wouldn't allow dog boys into its forces. The only real difference between FQ and the rest of the CS was speaking French and a higher literacy rate. FQ was just as bad a monster as the CS; even worse because of its open alliance with demon summoners against the CS.

I think it's because most people consider them to be a lesser, and possibly redeemable, threat. Easily handled by the Splugorth Minions on the East Coast.

[Toc Rat]

Kinda funny to watch people give FQ some kind of free pass when FQ is written as being just as bad, if not worse, than the rest of the CS when it came to anything non-human. It went to the point where it wouldn't allow dog boys into its forces. The only real difference between FQ and the rest of the CS was speaking French and a higher literacy rate. FQ was just as bad a monster as the CS; even worse because of its open alliance with demon summoners against the CS.

I don't think anyone is giving Free Quebec a "free pass" as you call it. I would hesitate to call them worse then the CS under the Proseks though. It would be more accurate to say they are just as vehemently pro-(pure)human and anti-magic but in their own way.
I can see how Westerners in general and Americans in specific would tend to view them more favorably then the Coalition States under the Proseks because while the Proseks stamp out literacy, the leaders of FQ actively encourage it. I will say again though, I don't think anyone is giving them a "free pass". I believe that people are simply voicing that they are in fact other strong human nations on Rifts Earth besides the CS. Some of which have existed since before the Dark Ages or even farther back, in the case of the New Navy.

[Vrykolas2k]

Kinda funny to watch people give FQ some kind of free pass when FQ is written as being just as bad, if not worse, than the rest of the CS when it came to anything non-human. It went to the point where it wouldn't allow dog boys into its forces. The only real difference between FQ and the rest of the CS was speaking French and a higher literacy rate. FQ was just as bad a monster as the CS; even worse because of its open alliance with demon summoners against the CS.

I think it's because most people consider them to be a lesser, and possibly redeemable, threat. Easily handled by the Splugorth Minions on the East Coast.

I can't understand why people would think that way. How are they redeemable in any fashion though They're literally written as being worse than the CS and yet people seem to think they're perfectly alright because they allow literacy with no problem. This concept completely blows my mind when people rail against the CS for all kinds of terrible things...and yet conveniently exclude FQ from it all.

I just wish I could figure out how people think of FQ as some kind of better place when it's right there in print that it's not.

*Shrug.*
Just repeating what I've heard others say in my gaming groups. Mostly because they can read, which implies more free-will and a more open attitude to ideas other than their government.
Personally, I consider them to be the same as the CS. I just think they have more to worry about right now than Lazlo.
The OP said the CS got "wiped out"... nae plausible, but since FQ is no longer "part of" the CS, they got left out of being annihilated.

[Lenwen]

I do not yet own the FQ book but that will be remidied this week . I will see what you guys are talking about . I seem to remember something along the lines that FQ was indeed more (read way more) lax on thier anti dbee laws then the CS . (Icould be wrong tho ) Dont FQ even operate a known dbee town or something called old bones or something to that nature ?

I am in no way giving FQ a "free ride" as it was mentioned previously by another poster .. But the fact remains they are NOT Coalition allies or even part of the Coalition anylonger . They WILL fight against each other its simply the way things WILL work out . They already tangled once . (btw anyone know if there is a book detailing the mini war by chance?) With no real winner .

Cs biased people will NOT want anything givin to FQ simply because as it stands right now FQ is one of the three powers in N.A. that could stand toe 2 toe AGAINST the Coalition an not be "Bullied" around what so ever .

Just my thoughts ..

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

Lenwen, as for the CS and FQ no longer being allies that's untrue. The CS and FQ are allies, FQ is just no longer part of the CS. The CS went to war with FQ and Tolkeen at the same time which is why FQ was able to break away from the CS without facing the entire CS army. FQ broke away when the CS couldn't bring its full forces to bear on it which is the primary reason it was able to succeed in the first place. Even with the Glitterboy Legions it's a toss-up on who would win. On one hand, the CS army is protected by writer's fiat. On the other hand, FQ is too because it's been obvious that Palladium was going to have FQ become independent. So in a "who would really win" argument, the point is moot.

I'd not say its a moot point . The FQ has had many things the CS had thought was wrong .. Glitter Boys , Juicers to name the most prominent ones an the CS has already followed suit on the Juicer's area .. they now have thier own juicers in thier ranks .. ( even tho it was due to the Uprisings ) the fact remains that FQ has ALWAYS had them even before the uprisings .. Now for the GlitterBoys . NGR has sent an helped set up factories for the FQ to start ( as of NGR book) FQ's own Glitterboy armies .. I see in the near future ( timeline ) the CS actually using the GB as well albeit might be extreamly limited but it will happen .

As for it being a toss up on who would win ... Sorry I dont buy that ..

The winner will be simply put the one who stays closer to home .. In many ways this would favor FQ I think its relativly safe to say that FQ has virtually everything the CS has in terms of armor's , Vehicles , Bots , skelebots , an virtually everything from Cwc book as FQ has not yet broken away from them as of that book .

Your absolutly right tho about one thing .. CS writers script Immunity .. That would be the largest thing to overcome .

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

Lenwen, as for the CS and FQ no longer being allies that's untrue. The CS and FQ are allies, FQ is just no longer part of the CS. The CS went to war with FQ and Tolkeen at the same time which is why FQ was able to break away from the CS without facing the entire CS army. FQ broke away when the CS couldn't bring its full forces to bear on it which is the primary reason it was able to succeed in the first place. Even with the Glitterboy Legions it's a toss-up on who would win. On one hand, the CS army is protected by writer's fiat. On the other hand, FQ is too because it's been obvious that Palladium was going to have FQ become independent. So in a "who would really win" argument, the point is moot.

I'd not say its a moot point . The FQ has had many things the CS had thought was wrong .. Glitter Boys , Juicers to name the most prominent ones an the CS has already followed suit on the Juicer's area .. they now have thier own juicers in thier ranks .. ( even tho it was due to the Uprisings ) the fact remains that FQ has ALWAYS had them even before the uprisings .. Now for the GlitterBoys . NGR has sent an helped set up factories for the FQ to start ( as of NGR book) FQ's own Glitterboy armies .. I see in the near future ( timeline ) the CS actually using the GB as well albeit might be extreamly limited but it will happen .

As for it being a toss up on who would win ... Sorry I dont buy that ..

The winner will be simply put the one who stays closer to home .. In many ways this would favor FQ I think its relativly safe to say that FQ has virtually everything the CS has in terms of armor's , Vehicles , Bots , skelebots , an virtually everything from Cwc book as FQ has not yet broken away from them as of that book .

Your absolutly right tho about one thing .. CS writers script Immunity .. That would be the largest thing to overcome .

-Lenwen.

Actually, you're wrong.

FQ has none of the current CS equipment. The main CS states held the new army in secret from FQ and never had any intention of sharing it...so no, under no circumstances does FQ have any of the new CS equipment. At the same time, FQ magically got immense amounts of glitterboys just like the CS got huge amounts of leftover original style SAMAS suits. Of course, no one ever complains about the unbelievable amount of super-powerful glitterboy suits that just show up....but god almighty will people ***** for forever and a day about the CS having a bunch of SAMAS.

The CS also has plenty of nukes left and FQ has no magical forcefield that is impervious to everything like Tolkeen had. The fortress cities were designed and built to be able to withstand a nuclear assault...but not immune to one. If we're talking a knock-down drag-out fight where both sides are fighting to win, then the CS would use them and you're looking at entire glitterboy legions being vaporized before they even get a chance to fire.

Keep in mind that FQ is unable to expand its territory. It's got Lazlo, New Lazlo, the ocean, and the CS surrounding it. Now, if you want to get into the idea of who would win a war being who stays closer to home let me remind you of something. FQ has a limited amount of farmland it can use and in a war against the CS, the CS has tons of food whereas any strike against FQ's food supply would result in catastrophe for FQ.

No, the war wouldn't be decided on who stays closer to the big fortress. Keep in mind that the NGR wouldn't be sending food to FQ either. The NGR receives regular food shipments from the CS, not the other way around...and FQ already gave away its biggest bargaining chip (Glitterboy technology) to the NGR. FQ has absolutely nothing to use in exchange for NGR support whereas the NGR needs the CS far far far (as stated in the books) more than the CS ever needed the NGR.

Strike at FQ's food supply and you win by simply starving your enemy to surrender if FQ follows your battle strategy.

Well said .. Very well said .. But let me ask you FQ is a Fortress City exactly like Chi-Town itself .. What makes you think Chi-Town has the ability to mass produce foodsources ....Yet FQ does not ?

According to NGR book the Glitter boy is a huge piece of the bargaining chip for sure .. But not at all thier largerst piece .. they also have the ability to cross the atlantic an reach from NGR to chitown in 3 hours time . Personally (even now after all thier tech updates ) I dont see anything in the CwC book that could compete realistically against most of the NGR equipment ..( And you know after the same amount of time NGR would have upgraded thier stuff even MORE so then that which the CS has done ) I cant wait to see the next ngr book for sure lol

FQ will have EVERY ability as a fortress city that Chi-Town itself would have . Manufacturing weapons , Food supplies , anything .. Thats how I personally see it . They are exactly like chi-town exept they are no longer part of the CS an there in lies the difference ..

Nukes you say ? What makes you think FQ wont have the ability to see them incomming an thusly launch thier own nukes ? I think it even says that when the FQ took 75% of the CS navy they even took the nukes .. that means to me FQ would be able to not only get "closer" to launch nukes but with out a doubt the CS would not be able to stop them getting closer either .

Remember FQ has the ability to produce nukes juss like the CS .. unless you think all them Glitterboy's powerplants are not nuclear as well ??

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

I didn't say they didn't have the ability produce nukes because of lack of materials.

Here's the biggest thing to remember. I know it doesn't make sense from a realistic standpoint to us, but even though just about everything from giant battle tanks to your home toaster is nuclear powered in Rifts, no one has figured out how to make a nuclear weapon. In Coalition Navy it explains that the CS had to find old American nukes in order to actually have any. Does it make sense that they figured out how to harness nuclear power but not how to make a nuclear bomb? No, not really....but according to canon, they haven't. Since the Coalition Navy was also separate from FQ's navy (remember that according to the books FQ has its own navy while the CS builds submarines with giant cowcatcher skull plates on the front of them) and that the nukes are located in Chi-Town according to the Tolkeen series. Since even in CWC it tells of how Chi-Town has never really trusted FQ (hell, the very beginning of the book details FQ having no idea about the Skeleton Raiders which were the field tests of the new Coalition Army) and CWC came out before Coalition Navy, I'd say it's pretty safe to say that Chi-Town didn't share the nukes with FQ....and up until the launching of them against Tolkeen, FQ had no idea that the CS even had nukes.

Like I said, we're not in a zone that makes sense to us, but this is how it's written and as such we're slaves to the situation.

As for what I said about food, allow me to elaborate on why: CS Missouri (CWC pg 217)

This state is the heartland of the Coalition, responsible for the vast majority of all food produced by the Coalition. Now we know that FQ has its own farmland because it was an independent nation before joining the CS, but this leads to a major problem. FQ's population most likely has increased greatly just the the Coalition's population has increased from the original Book 1 to whatever book we're on now (41?). Most likely cause for that is the brand new influx of much more food from CS Missouri. Now as FQ is an ally of the CS, it's highly doubtful that the CS has stopped sending food to FQ and hence its ability to sustain its own population. However, we're not talking about them being allies now, we're hypothetically speaking about a second war. If the CS was to cut off all food shipments to FQ, FQ is now suddenly in a huge bind.

I don't doubt that FQ is capable of doing everything that the other states are capable of. I am doubtful, however, of FQ being able to do what the other states do when it is suddenly cut off from all incoming resources of the various states of the Coalition. I'll give you an example, we'll talk cars. A factory in Nebraska set up to build Ford Tauruses can build the exact same thing that a factory in Tennessee (that was set up to build Ford Tauruses as well) can do. However, when you suddenly stop sending the materials needed to build said cars to the Nebraska factory, you haven't lost the manufacturing ability to create the actual car...you've lost the actual ability to make the car. This would be FQ's biggest problem. All this time it has been a member of the CS (even though it's been a whiny ***** of a member) and has been able to take advantage of all the benefits of statehood. Now it's not.

Now it has no access to materials not in its own territory, no access to food beyond its own territory....you've hurt FQ badly before the first shot's been fired.

Free Quebec also doesn't have the ability to cross the Atlantic in 3 hours. That's the NGR with their sub-stratospheric supersonic transport plane (Triax and the NGR, pg 131). Like I said, FQ's sole bargaining chip that the NGR wanted was Glitterboy technology. Now that they have it, they don't need FQ's support for anything that is valuable enough to cause them to forsake the entire CS just to help FQ.

Again my friend well said nicely put but again I ask you ..

What makes you think FQ (which was self sufficent prior to joining the CS ) is suddenly in such a huge resource depression ?

I have not read anywhere that would seem to confirm your saying so .. Remember it is the NGR that needs thier (CS) resources .. unless I am missing something super importent (which very well could be the case) I am not aware of Free Quebec's nearly total dependency upon the CS for foodsources and or Raw materials .. again I could be wrong ..

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

Understood . But in all honesty you could argue they MIGHT* not be able to do this or to be able to do that simply cause they were removed from the CS but the fact remains they were self sufficient prior to ever being a CS state . An nuthing supports the claim that they would not be able to now .

I cant find anything anywhere that states they were getting anything other then special treatment from the CS at all unfortunately . Were they getting resources as well as foodsources from Chi-Town at all ?

I would think in a war between the FQ vrs CS if I were FQ I'd favor a defensive war position as opposed to an Offensive war position. One any war you ever study which the defensive party has had time to prep for were never ever just ran over . This would support the FQ war in due to their legions of Glitterboys being able to do what they do best .. stay put an let loose ..

In this scenario .. Not only does the CS have to Bare to force their armies .. They have to get them there ... They have to keep them supplied ...( oh wait Nm.. Gen Holmes showed us otherwise ) An they have to do it fast enough to try to catch FQ by suprise . Other wise FQ knows their territory better then the CS .. FQ knows CS battle tactic's and most inportantly .. FQ knows the composition of the CS forces .. FQ knows how they deploy those forces ..in my personal estimation of this war Cs would take a huge loss in manpower if you ask me .. ( If they actually play it like it would unfold instead of the script Immunity scenario)

Just my two Cp's ..

-Lenwen.

P.S.
Cs has no inkling what so ever of how FQ would handle themselves in a war time situation as it has never happened to them yet . CS does not know the overall Troop numbers , The FQ wartime Tactic's , How all those Glitterboys would be dispursed , It would be so much easier to stay put an let them come esp from a logistical standpoint .

I do not think that FQ would allow the CS war machines close enough to thier foodsources unless they lost key engaugments ... Course I might be wrong ..

[bigbobsr6000]

(DING, DING, DING) Ladies and gentleman, welcome to tonight's main event. In this corner The Coalition States of America and in this corner Free Quebec in the Rematch of the century. The Rules of Engagement are, there are no Rules of Engagement.

"LET'S GET READY TO RRUUUUMMMBBBBLLLLEEEE!!!......"

GMs and Players go wild every where.............

[Lenwen]

In this War I firmly believe that the CS would not be able to win . FQ would gladly make allies with other peoples to defeat the CS . I see the CS as the aggressor an if so FQ would be able to enlist the aid of lazlo an new lazlo( course thats not saying they will join it merely presents one aspect of many that FQ could actually do in this situation ) The FQ navy is VASTLY more superior to the Cs's navy , in terms of Skill and types of ships . Even after the introduction of several other newer ships the CS has recently put into waters . FQ has not just stood idle an let the CS do a major arms buildup . They no doubt have already introduced just as many new ships themselves , They tho prolly dident make as much a fuss over each new ship sent out as the CS did as to keep the lid quite so to speak , This is of course all speculation on my part till FQ2 comes out *hint*hint*

-Lenwen.

[bigbobsr6000]

I have some questions to throw out while on CS vs FQ

1. Would either or both employ Mercs to fight?
2. If so, Mercs of any race to help win?
3. Employ Magic Users to help win?
4. Nuclear weapons? Either side or both? Greater than tatical nukes?
5. Do both sides have spies entrenched? At what level? If so, how would that play out?

Just thought these are worthy debate questions.

[Lenwen]

the enemy of my enemy is my friend ...

FQ knows the CS would NEVER expect them to ally with anyone other then another human nation . Thusly .. Gaining the advantage of suprise .

Both Lazlo cities seen what the CS has already done to tolkeen which is alot further away from the CS then Lazlo itself is ... They seen the CS does not want anything to do with a multi faceted war thusly in the advent of a War Between the CS and FQ they would in my personal estimation take a "temporary" alliance with FQ .. And thus increase their own survivability in any kind of a war against the CS in the long run ..

I know it is VERY scary for any CS fan to think that such an unholy alliance could ever happen ..

If not for the CS script Immunity ... I think this scenario would play out quite interestingly ..

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

I have some questions to throw out while on CS vs FQ

1. Would either or both employ Mercs to fight?

Yes they both would .

2. If so, Mercs of any race to help win?

Quite sure on that one too Yes.

3. Employ Magic Users to help win?

This is a bit harder to see on either side but cant be ruled out as of yet ..

4. Nuclear weapons? Either side or both? Greater than tatical nukes?

Highly doubtful Prosek wont allow it on another human nation regaurdless of what transpires .

5. Do both sides have spies entrenched? At what level? If so, how would that play out?

Yes Both have Spies entrenched deep into each others hiarchy .

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

Forgot to ask my own question .

Where does it say that FQ is exactly like the CS in all manners outside of being Human Supreamists ?

There must be some atrocities they have done to be put in such a dubious position as just as bad as the CS ..

-Lenwen.

[bigbobsr6000]

Would Lazlo and New Lazlo take any independant action on their own against either warring faction?

If so, I'd think it would be covert or gorilla type tatics.

[bigbobsr6000]

1. Would either or both employ Mercs to fight?
2. If so, Mercs of any race to help win?
3. Employ Magic Users to help win?

Wow those questions just gave me the best campaign idea ever!!!

I'll start brainstorming and typing some stuff up for it an post it whenever I'm done.

thanks bob!!!

Glad to be of service.

[Lenwen]

4. You said no holds barred, I took that to mean nukes were allowed. According to CS Navy, the CS would never use them unless its very survival was at stake...then in Tolkeen they used them anyway when they were NOT at risk. So yeah, the CS would definitely nuke FQ in a no-holds fight.

Not even close . they would only use nukes on FQ if chi town itself was about to fall .. anything other then that is completly conterdicted in Coalition Navy book .

5. FQ had no idea about the new CS military or its troop activities.

Cwc states that FQ had reason to believe that the new "raiders " as they were known by at the time were in fact Coalition testing new armors weapons an bots .

Lenwen, the problem with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't that it's a couple of CS fanboys unable to see the possibility of an alliance, it's that Lazlo and New Lazlo have had the CS at their door since the beginning because FQ WAS a part of the CS for a long time. The chances of them allying with FQ against the CS is a fool's errand and again, neither of those nations has ANYTHING to gain from such an alliance.

The fact is never before has the Coalition been on the warpath like this . Anyone inside thier sphere of influence has reason to start looking for alliances period . Script Immunity for the CS however has thusly not allowed for this ..

FQ's people being able to read doesn't make them redeemable. Like it's already been said, if anything FQ is WORSE than the CS.

I've already asked ... How are they worse then the CS ? Which book is this in ? Because some one is a Human supreamist does not mean thier on the same lvl as the CS exept that which they have in common .. being human supreamists

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has always been a bogus claim anyway, as the enemy of your enemy is most definitely still your enemy in many cases, this one included.

Bogus or not .. Fact is in War's there are Always alliances to be made . This is Rifts earth .. And never before has the CS been wanting to flex its muscle in such a way as it is now doing . Rue.. clearly states there are tens of thousands of the refugee's now headed to both of the Lazlo cities .

The only reason the whole " enemy of my enemy " has yet to materialize in the N.A. continent against the CS is simply due to thier Script Immunity . Dont believe me ... just reach for the nearest Siege on Tolkeen book .. you will see what I mean ..

-Lenwen.

[dark brandon]

I have some questions to throw out while on CS vs FQ

1. Would either or both employ Mercs to fight?

Maybe...but not to fight against each other. They may higher mercs to handle little threats, but as with SoT, mercs don't make great soldiers.

2. If so, Mercs of any race to help win?
3. Employ Magic Users to help win?

I know CS wouldn't. I think (maybe) it's in the merc book or Juicer uprisings (hell, could even be in the cwc), but it was stated that CS has a problem highering juicer mercs, and rarely crazy mercs...and never highers magic users.

4. Nuclear weapons? Either side or both? Greater than tatical nukes?
5. Do both sides have spies entrenched? At what level? If so, how would that play out?

Just thought these are worthy debate questions.

4. THey wouldn't use it, I assume. Both are still fairly there for "humanity" and there'd be no point in fighting for a nation where everyone is dead.

5. Yes, both have spies, but CS has spies deeper, if only they are so much larger and have a bigger bank book to spend on spies.

[bigbobsr6000]

Two or more enemies have combined to fight a greater enemy to them both/all.

[Vrykolas2k]

Not even close . they would only use nukes on FQ if chi town itself was about to fall .. anything other then that is completly conterdicted in Coalition Navy book .

And like I said, all that talk in Coalition Navy was completely wiped away because of the Siege of Tolkeen series. Originally it said they'd never use them unless Chi-Town was about to go, then in the SoT books they launched nukes like they were going out of style. Coalition Navy's info is irrelevant now.

Cwc states that FQ had reason to believe that the new "raiders " as they were known by at the time were in fact Coalition testing new armors weapons an bots.

LOTS of people thought it was the Coalition. The fact that FQ had only guesses to go on shows they didn't have squat for spies.

The fact is never before has the Coalition been on the warpath like this . Anyone inside thier sphere of influence has reason to start looking for alliances period . Script Immunity for the CS however has thusly not allowed for this

And you're on this crusade to say that FQ and the Lazlos would ally despite everything that FQ has done and all that the Lazlos stand for. You're not giving anyone any reason to believe you beyond saying "Times they are a'changin' ". FQ allied with with Tolkeen when it went evil and was summoning demons, not before. What possible cause would either Lazlo have to ally itself with something so concerned with its own selfish nature that it would then turn its back on its own ally? If anything has been demonstrated by FQ is that you can't trust it for a second. It will ally with anything and then it will turn its back on that ally.

Lazlo and New Lazlo have absolutely no incentive to ever ally with Free Quebec.

I've already asked ... How are they worse then the CS ? Which book is this in ? Because some one is a Human supreamist does not mean thier on the same lvl as the CS exept that which they have in common .. being human supreamists

And I've already said it's in CWC. Read Erin Tarn's reaction to Prosek's speech, she talks about them in that. The FQ book talks about their human supremacist policies and history as well.

Bogus or not .. Fact is in War's there are Always alliances to be made . This is Rifts earth .. And never before has the CS been wanting to flex its muscle in such a way as it is now doing . Rue.. clearly states there are tens of thousands of the refugee's now headed to both of the Lazlo cities .

Headed towards does not mean accepted. Take a look around at current refugee situations. Just because you flee to another country doesn't mean that country will take you in. That being said, with all these refugees incoming, that makes it an even worse situation for Lazlo to get involved because now it will have a bunch of innocents in front of the CS Army. It would be a massacre of innocent people if Lazlo were to get involved in such a situation which is something Lazlo, if what's written about it can be believed, would never enter into.

The only reason the whole " enemy of my enemy " has yet to materialize in the N.A. continent against the CS is simply due to thier Script Immunity . Dont believe me ... just reach for the nearest Siege on Tolkeen book .. you will see what I mean .. -Lenwen.

And what's shooting holes in your own theories is the fact that Lazlo and New Lazlo have no information available on them beyond what Erin Tarn says, and since she has yet to say anything about them beyond they are cautious and borderline pacifistic, not to mention their complete unwillingness to help other nations.

Pretty much everything was wiped away in the SoT.
The xiticix attacking everything above four quietly moving people without vehicles, people needing re-supply after being stuck in the hive-lands for months, some say a city of dragons (debatable, since Atlantis also has cities with quite a few of them such as Dragcona), FQ having anything at all to do with magi and their ilk, let alone allying with them... the list can go on and on.
Not to mention the endless hordes of CS troops, equipment, skelebots, ad nauseum. None of the previous books supported much of what the CS ended up with. So that really makes for at least two books (Coalition Navy and World Book 23) that might as well have never been written, if you go by SoT and Aftermath.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i find the entire thread a great laugh

[bigbobsr6000]

personally i find the entire thread a great laugh

Yeah! Another satisfied customer.

[Lenwen]

Two or more enemies have combined to fight a greater enemy to them both/all.

Indeed as scene threw out history ... wether its on a local level or a cross hemispheres .. it happens ... the only reason it has yet to happen against the CS is simple ...Either it is building up to it as we speak .. or they are protected with thier Script Immunities ...

endless hordes of CS troops , equipment , skelebots, ad nauseum. None of the previous books supported much of what the CS ended up with .

Exactly .. another source talking about thier mighty script immunity ..

Not even Coalition War Campaign suppored thier wartime military numbers after thier build up ..

And it was WRITTEN to build up thier military ....

And you're on this crusade to say that FQ and the Lazlos would ally despite everything that FQ has done and all that the Lazlos stand for. You're not giving anyone any reason to believe you beyond saying "Times they are a'changin' ".

Actually I've said time and again that the only reason all of the CS enemies do NOT ally with each other is due to thier script imunities ... Come now ... Chi-Town is 100% completly surrounded by Dunscon , Psyscape , Kingsdale (juicer army) , Tolkeen , Dweomer , Lazlo , New Lazlo . And yet the CS can be the agressor ... An not a single city state /entity will ever consider a possible alliance with each other ?
Of of Seven Cities I mentioned above three have populations built strickly for war and balance out thier overall populations with over a million each .. ( on average )

Lazlo and New Lazlo have absolutely no incentive to ever ally with Free Quebec.

Its called Self Preservation .. With the CS going all out as it seems to destroy all life it deems not suitable (read not human) ...

I'd say that is more incentive then anything else in the world... Wouldent you ?

And I've already said it's in CWC. Read Erin Tarn's reaction to Prosek's speech, she talks about them in that. The FQ book talks about their human supremacist policies and history as well.

I have read it .. It says simply they are not sinless .. then goes on to they have thier share of atrocities .. thats the worst of it .. Clearly the Free Quebec book itself paints themselves in such a light as to equate them as being on the same lvl of cruelness as the Coalition then ..

Yes or no ? I am at present waiting for my FQ book to arrive so I at this time am unable to read it for myself ..

-Lenwen.

P.S.
I am not on some as you called it crusade to prove FQ an the Lazlo cities WILL ally against the CS .. I mearly said its one of many possibilities ... as well as saying that it was my personal estimation that they could temporarily ally with each other .. Course I very well could be wrong .. therein lies the whole debate ..

[bigbobsr6000]

This is fantasy, anything and nothing is possible.

I think I'll have a meteor hit Chi-Town in my next Rifts campaign and destory it utterly along with the Burbs.

Yes I know about the orbital defense grid, but it's my fantasy and I can do anything I want.

Or a diease that only kills the CS.

I can over come the Writer's Immunity of the CS in my Rifts World.

[Xenogears]

Tolkeens not dead yet and like the ashes of the Phoenix will rise again.

[dark brandon]

Tolkeens not dead yet and like the ashes of the Phoenix will rise again.

Unlike the phenoix, when it rises, it will be changed. Tolkeen stood for knowledge and learning...but over time allowed itself to be corrputed from the inside out. Should it rise again, it will not be the tolkeen people once new. Instead of being a mirror of what it once was, it will be a mirror of the Dunscons FOM.

[Lenwen]

Tolkeens not dead yet and like the ashes of the Phoenix will rise again.

Unlike the phenoix, when it rises, it will be changed. Tolkeen stood for knowledge and learning...but over time allowed itself to be corrputed from the inside out. Should it rise again, it will not be the tolkeen people once new. Instead of being a mirror of what it once was, it will be a mirror of the Dunscons FOM.

Or something even worse then FoM ...

-Lenwen.

[Xenogears]

Tolkeens not dead yet and like the ashes of the Phoenix will rise again.

Unlike the phenoix, when it rises, it will be changed. Tolkeen stood for knowledge and learning...but over time allowed itself to be corrputed from the inside out. Should it rise again, it will not be the tolkeen people once new. Instead of being a mirror of what it once was, it will be a mirror of the Dunscons FOM.

Or something even worse then FoM ...

-Lenwen.

I see your points on this matter but that just depends on leadership.

[Lenwen]

It either depends on the Strong leadership or lack there of ..
If thier new leadership has the capability to withstand the CS encrouchement of it they too will fall to the power of the Lemmings in the CS walled city ..

I personally wish a TRUELY evil empire would arise to counter the might of the CS .. to sorta balance things out as it were .. Yes I know about Dunscon an his (faction ) within the FoM an no I do not believe they hold the power to ward off a full invasion of the FoM ..

This is ofcourse jsut my two cp's ..

-Lenwen.

[Library Ogre]

Of course Tolkeen will rise again. The CS isn't going to let prime settlement land like that lay fallow.

[Xenogears]

Of course Tolkeen will rise again. The CS isn't going to let prime settlement land like that lay fallow.

To bad the C.S. won't be left alone long enough to use it.

[Lenwen]

Len, why would you want a truly evil empire to counter the CS? If the CS is evil...then wouldn't an even more evil empire kinda be the opposite of a counter? Now if you're talking a truly evil empire made up of demons, d-bees, and magic users....I don't think you could've created something that would galvanize every person in the CS to go along with the party line for eternity more than that.

Just messing with you, Len

Just wait till the Minion wars Al

Then we shall see the proverbial pewp hit the fan .

Dats all I am gonna say muahahahahaha.

-Lenwen.

[dark brandon]

Heh, what is the CS gonna do when an army of demons and an army of deevils start to rumble and they don't give a flying fart about what gets destroyed around them? Like a fight between super villains. Property gets destroyed and neither party is going to pay for the bill. And if any CS battalions get between them, too bad.

Actually, the minion wars would be a great place to show off the heroics of CS. CS, being the only real nation that has any power in NA, may be NA's only defense against them.

[Lenwen]

Heh, what is the CS gonna do when an army of demons and an army of deevils start to rumble and they don't give a flying fart about what gets destroyed around them? Like a fight between super villains. Property gets destroyed and neither party is going to pay for the bill. And if any CS battalions get between them, too bad.

Actually, the minion wars would be a great place to show off the heroics of CS. CS, being the only real nation that has any power in NA, may be NA's only defense against them.

Dark ya make me laugh man your a good mate to have round
Seriously tho do you honestly think the CS is the only real power in NA an that it may be the only defence against them ?

-Lenwen.

[glitterboy2098]

it seems to me that the minion war spilling over onto earth is exactly the sort of thing the Cyberknights were created to counter. to walk in the dark places no others will enter, to stand on the bridge and let no one pass. to be a light in the darkness when all other lights go out.

and it was to preserve the cyberknight order for just such a role that they were to stay out of the war between the CS and tolkeen.

of course, while now they are split over philosophy, they have the masses of Tolkeenite refugees to recruit from and many allies in the form of justice rangers, tundra rangers, skyknights, native americans, wilderness scouts, and many others.
in north america, where ever the minion war rears it's head, Cyberknights and their allies would be the first line of defense. rallying people to stop the intruiges of the demonic forces.

the CS is powerful, but it's reach is finite. it cannot protect the entire continent.

[glitterboy2098]

they were already very effective at fighting the supernatural, with their psi-swords and psionic abilities. the SOT4/RUE new abilities give them an edge against the one force they couldn't face properly before.

[dark brandon]

Heh, what is the CS gonna do when an army of demons and an army of deevils start to rumble and they don't give a flying fart about what gets destroyed around them? Like a fight between super villains. Property gets destroyed and neither party is going to pay for the bill. And if any CS battalions get between them, too bad.

Actually, the minion wars would be a great place to show off the heroics of CS. CS, being the only real nation that has any power in NA, may be NA's only defense against them.

Dark ya make me laugh man your a good mate to have round
Seriously tho do you honestly think the CS is the only real power in NA an that it may be the only defence against them ?

-Lenwen.

Well, yes.

Fact: No other nation in NA has the power of the CS. This has been stated many times in more than a few books. During the tolkeen war it was stated BY lazlo officials that lazlo could and would not join in the war because even if they did, they did not stand a chance against CS. FoM is, and has been stated, a loosely based collection. Archie, while powerful isn't strong enough to face the CS. Pyscape and that other FoM kindom are both stated to be small, and would not be able to stave off CS attacks.

Quebec + tolkeen + lazlo and you were still told CS would dominate.

Lazlo is stated to be the strongest magic kingdom in NA tolkeen the second(was) strongest.

Please state why you think otherwise.

[dark brandon]

they were already very effective at fighting the supernatural, with their psi-swords and psionic abilities. the SOT4/RUE new abilities give them an edge against the one force they couldn't face properly before.

They were ok, but not effective. Their psi-sword is weak, and limited. Some had psionics, but nothing that really made them "effective".

The new cyber-knights now have an edge vs. tech, but they are still only slightly better than you're average mercinary (and that's probably because most of them have mind block and 6th sense)

[glitterboy2098]

the strength of a cyberknight is not in strength of arms, but in strength of heart. in times of great strife a cyberknight will rarely be seen alone, but rather at the head of a band of wariors and hero's, whose power is greater than the sum of it's parts. it is that ability to unite others in service of a common good that makes the cyberknights the best force to deal with the minion war.

the CS is very strong in it's own lands, but only the Cyberknights can create strength in places no other power can reach.

for example, if deevil's emerge from the haunted mine in Silverado, would the CS help? silverado, which has no ties with the CS, has no trade with the Cs, and lies a thousand miles away from anywhere the CS holds sway? would the CS even know something was happening there?

but that area is under the eyes of the cyberknights, as is most of the west, and cyberknights would rally the defenders of silverado in defense of their town. and probably not just one knight, but several, rallying not only silverado but the colorado baronies.

[dark brandon]

the strength of a cyberknight is not in strength of arms, but in strength of heart. in times of great strife a cyberknight will rarely be seen alone, but rather at the head of a band of wariors and hero's, whose power is greater than the sum of it's parts. it is that ability to unite others in service of a common good that makes the cyberknights the best force to deal with the minion war.

the CS is very strong in it's own lands, but only the Cyberknights can create strength in places no other power can reach.

I've never seen that class ability. if this is true, then why did they give CK a raise in power vs. tech?

[glitterboy2098]

the strength of a cyberknight is not in strength of arms, but in strength of heart. in times of great strife a cyberknight will rarely be seen alone, but rather at the head of a band of wariors and hero's, whose power is greater than the sum of it's parts. it is that ability to unite others in service of a common good that makes the cyberknights the best force to deal with the minion war.

the CS is very strong in it's own lands, but only the Cyberknights can create strength in places no other power can reach.

I've never seen that class ability. if this is true, then why did they give CK a raise in power vs. tech?

since it's a roleplay thing and not a stats thing, no wonder. people tend to forget that a cyberknights are hero's to the people, and hero's do more than just just wader around fighting monsters. their actions lead people to emulate them, and their reputation makes people listen to them. and if they ask for help, people will help them.

[dark brandon]

the strength of a cyberknight is not in strength of arms, but in strength of heart. in times of great strife a cyberknight will rarely be seen alone, but rather at the head of a band of wariors and hero's, whose power is greater than the sum of it's parts. it is that ability to unite others in service of a common good that makes the cyberknights the best force to deal with the minion war.

the CS is very strong in it's own lands, but only the Cyberknights can create strength in places no other power can reach.

I've never seen that class ability. if this is true, then why did they give CK a raise in power vs. tech?

since it's a roleplay thing and not a stats thing, no wonder. but it is there, if you read the fluff.

Then, please explain the second part. If the first is true, then why did they get an upgrade vs. tech?

[glitterboy2098]

cyberknights could already hurt the supernatural. their swords and mind powers are always effective against the supernatural, even when normal weapons were not.

but against tech they suffered. their focus was on close combat and mental powers (as it still is). against soldiers they faired ok. but a robot or a power armor could defeat them easily, from range where they were vulnerable.

their new powers allow them to get in close and use their swords, their hand to hand to beat such opponents. it negates the bot's range advantage by disrupting the sensors and systems just enough.

and it wasn't just an upgrade vs. tech. they also got better htH and cyberarmor at the same time, making them that much more effective against the supernatural as well. against tech it does not help as much, since the range advantage is still too strong.


and i'm not argueing that they were created to fight the minion war specifically. but rather that they were created to protect the people of north america (and eventually the world) from any force that would impose itself on the people. the CS could well have ended up such a threat (and may yet.). indeed, until the minion wars do arrive, the Cyberknights would see the CS as the only real threat to peace in north america. which could be a reason for increased focus on rectifing their disadvantage vs. technology.

[dark brandon]

Sorry, GB. I disagree with nearly everything you've said.

I just think the CK upgrade was simply ill-thoughout and un-needed. There was no good reason for them to have any upgrade against tech. They themselves were limited in no way from tech and started off with a number of modern weapon skills, and I go so far to say any good CK will NEVER find himself in close combat if it can be avoided. They were already more effective against tech than they would have been vs. supernatural.

As for the minion wars...is the CS the only nation? Well, no. I thought about it, and it really depends on how much comes to Rifts. If it's just a small group, then any little nation could take it out. But the bigger the forces, the more CS becomes the only viable NA choice.

Finally, CK fair poorly at war. It says so in SoT 4. They are good at small, individual groups. CK have lost a lot of credibility. They fought on the losing side of a war, they split as a group and finally they fought along side demons.

I'm not saying CK couldn't...just that it really depends on how big the force that comes to RIFTs is.

[glitterboy2098]

the minion wars will almost definately be a 'shadow war' if Carl's word has any wieght. (which it should, being the writer)

a war in the shadows is by definition one of small groups, moving semi-covertly and avoiding contact with the major powers except where nessicary.

the demons and deevils aren't interested in conquest, at least at that time, but are interested in gathering items, knowledge, and slaves that they can use against their enemies. and of course, stopping their enemies from doing the same.

it's a war of military intellegence and counter intellegence. and while the CS's information gathering ability is remarkable inside their own borders, it is highly unlikely that they'll be able to track demon/deevil movements outside their own borders well, and odds are they'll not consider it their problem unless until it threatens the CS directly.

[Lenwen]

The power increase is there .. its Canon .. nuthing can stop it .. heh . like it or not there will now be more CK's in everyones games . Oh and to the dude with no name but the (.)as the name ...

The new CK's would mop the floor with a Borg now

-Lenwen.