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Devari wrote:There's really no question that the CS would eventually be defeated in a conventional war with an enemy that has superior technology and numbers. But as I mentioned earlier, this is where the CS nuclear arsenal comes in. As of 103 P.A. the CS had the manufacturing capability to produce up to 50 nuclear warheads each of 1 mt yield per year, which means they can produce a 1 mt warhead each week. They also have a readily accessible supply of nuclear material for building warheads from the power plants of all their nuclear-powered vehicles. Best of all, since the CS warhead designs have minimal fallout they can be used tactically even if enemy forces have reached and entered CS territory. So the relevant question here is what does an invading force do when the CS detonates a 1 mt warhead upon the arrival of any sizeable force at their borders? It certainly costs much less to produce that 1 mt warhead than it does to replace the thousands of enemy troops and vehicles that it can destroy, so it will end up costing an enemy an enormous number of troops to make any progress while costing the CS relatively little. And the CS could also scale up their nuclear weapons program substantially, dramatically increasing warhead production and producing much larger yield warheads. In this type of situation I could easily see the CS reaching a stalemate with an invading force where the enemy can keep sending in reinforcements and the CS can keep destroying them with nuclear warheads. Now, even though the CS warheads produce minimal fallout there will still be some gradual environmental damage and eventually the CS will be uninhabitable. But by the time that happens an invading enemy force will have sent literally millions of troops and vehicles only to have them nuked each time they enter CS territory.

What does an invading force and where talking about Splynncryth do when the CS detonates a 1 mt warhead. Hits the C.S. ten times hard then the C.S. hit it and send more troops to mop up whats left.

Well said Devari . Good point . Convention says Atlantis wins after rifting millions of troops there via various ways I showed the hardest part of which is to diefically create them portals thier extreamly expensive for old splyn head but from the very first one going up to the last one going up I would say possibly six overall portals . Also said to which worlds . But back to your nukes . CS most definatly could with relative Impunity launch said nukes against the FoM held territory . Ofcourse that will sound BIG time to any sensative psychic's with in the nuclear bombing area's ( which not all will belong to splynn or alister ) .

As was stated earlier Lord Splynn would not want to deliberatly destroy the CS as he would relish the thought of taking the people an selling them all over the megavers into slavery . HOWEVER .. If the CS launched thier nukes ( thats thier real only hope) Then Lord Splynn would turn the heat up on the CS . By simply moving the theater close enough that any nuclear bomb's would affect thier own efforts to stop the invasion. Lord Splynn would easily create untold numbers of those Deific portals , easily within ten to twenty miles from the very CS walls of Chi-Town itself . Obviously with stone masters at his command he could with extream ease create an underground bunker say several miles below to withstand any bombardment combined with MDC steel walls an all sorts of other things an tube's miles long leading to various area's the endings that which are all mystically concealed .One (out of untold numbers ) of those Portals leading right to Chi town . Now here is where it gets fun .. Sending hundreds (or thousands or millions ) of fighters threw the portal enrout to Chi town first crippling cs air targets , not even touching chi town proper what so ever . The kittani fighters completly destroy the burb's an any military force inside of a 1500 mile range of Chi town. Kitanni fighters are known to have max flight capabilities of mach 7 , nuclear power an thus could with (millions) litterally take over the overall continent within roughly 18 to 28 hours after initial assault .Hidden portals mystically concealed (how many As many as lord Splyn wants) for the invading airforce to enter theater .. Hidden Portals for thier departure in atlantis .. which at mach 7 is really not that far .. overall perhaps as much as 5'000 miles . (mach 7 =5'390 MPH at sea level ) Overall time for one fighter to port into theater .(1 melee round ) Time to target ( 5 minutes max) Time to unload all weapon systems ( perhaps half hour ..) Total time to leave theater ( half hour ) Total time to destination exit portal ( 1hour) Overall Time in rifts earth for each figher roughly = 2 to 3 hours . Thats obviously after they have taken out any air force the CS would put out there to try to stop them. Total time in theater to take out CS air forces ; Perhaps less then half a day .

-Lenwen.

Lenwen wrote:Lord Splynn would easily create untold numbers of those Deific portals , easily within ten to twenty miles from the very CS walls of Chi-Town itself . Obviously with stone masters at his command he could with extream ease create an underground bunker say several miles below to withstand any bombardment combined with MDC steel walls an all sorts of other things an tube's miles long leading to various area's the endings that which are all mystically concealed .One (out of untold numbers ) of those Portals leading right to Chi town.

For the most part I generally discount the possibility of an enemy managing to infiltrate Chi-Town simply because the books seem to indicate that the CS has a sufficiently powerful combination of technological and psychic defences to prevent an attempt to bypass their security. So I'm assuming that we're talking about some type of direct military conflict here, which is where the balance of conventional and nuclear forces becomes important. As I mentioned above it seems most likely that the CS and an invading force would reach a stalemate, which would probably last until the environmental damage from nuclear weapons eventually makes the region uninhabitable or the invading forces decide to stop using massive amounts of military resources trying to defeat the CS.

Xenogears wrote:What does an invading force and where talking about Splynncryth do when the CS detonates a 1 mt warhead. Hits the C.S. ten times hard then the C.S. hit it and send more troops to mop up whats left.

The problem is, there's nothing to mop up in this scenario. Neither side gets anywhere. The CS has bunkers to withstand prolonged nuclear assault, so a nuclear exchange isn't going to achieve much in terms of defeating the CS. And the conventional forces don't really enter into the equation here because every time an army arrives it gets destroyed with a warhead. Nothing is actually gained by the attacking forces. So no one wins. An army arrives, an army gets nuked, repeat over and over until the area is uninhabitable or the invading force gives up.

Another issue that should be considered is what an invading force is really going to gain from trying to defeat the CS and occupy North America. North America doesn't have any resources of any meaningful value to an interplanetary empire. The only thing of any value would be to control access to the ley lines and rifts in North America, since this could obviously be useful for moving between various dimensions and worlds. But there's nothing particularly important about North America in this regard, so there's really no need to control that particular region of rifts earth if you simply want to use the rifts as an interplanetary and/or interdimensional transportation system. The CS nuclear arsenal means that it would cost an invading force a very heavy toll to try to defeat the CS and gain control of this region, so it would seem to make little sense to even try to invade in the first place. And even if the CS were eventually defeated the survivors would wage a guerrilla warfare campaign against any occupying forces. So in the end there really wouldn't be any winners - it would simply cost too much to take down the CS, and it would continue to cost an invading force to maintain control of the region, all for no real gain.

Daniel Stoker wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Beni wrote:Except no. Because there's too many psychics in Splynn that would forsee such an attack, pinpoint the time, and have plenty of time to set up defenses.

Depends. Even with all the psychics, they can't track vampires in atlantis.

Just like the CS can't track every mutant, supernatural being or mage in the 'burbs or their cities...

Exactly.

And a nuclear strike that is going to take out either leader is a lot 'bigger' and more important then the vampires or mutants, so why would they be comparable?


Daniel Stoker

Because it's stated in atlantis I believe that the greatest threat the splugorth face is going to be the vampire kingdoms. In fact the only thing that has kept him from cleaning Middle america is that the force he'd use would scare the rest of the world. While not an immediate threat, it is a great threat none-the-less

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Lenwen wrote:Splugorthians are Alien Intelligences.
Dragons n Gods pg 92 : CREATE Deific PORTAL : No limmits on size nor duration . Can be manipulated as per the Deity's desire .

You'll have to help me here, since lacking a copy of Dragons and Gods to reference and this ability not being mentioned in Pantheons of the Megaverse, I'm slightly in the dark. Is this a power common to all gods or is it restricted to only a certain segment? Is it a power common to all Alien Intelligences across the board or do some have it while others dont. For instance, vampire intelligences are Alien Intelligences also, and they don't have this power. Is it cast prospectively or retrospectively, that is, does the caster need to be at the point of origin or the terminus of the portal. How long does this power take to activate? What is it's cost to activate? Is it an "at will" power or must there be pre-conditions met? Do the rifts thus created follow the same rules at other intentional rifts?

Splynncryth decides to actually do this he looks to his ally ; ALISTER DUNSCUN .. Who has been WANTING to do this very thing . With the Splugorthian backing his motivation is that much stronger to seek revenge. The Pyramids in the FoM theater are activated all bringing troops threw 24 hours a day 7 days a week . Circle magic no questions asked will be placed all over FoM territory (key locations) with corrasponding circles for each in Atlantis . All bringing troops as well as supplies an all sorts of goodies for them threw 24 hours a day 7 days a week .

Dunscon does not control the FoM or even the largest segment of the FoM. How many Pyramids are in the FoM and under Dunscan's control? Where is the City of Brass (Dunscon's main base of operations) in relation to CS territories? Must the invading Atlantean troops cross hostile or non-allied territory to reach their CS objectives? Given the paltry through-put of a Circle of Transportation it would take half the faerie wings on the planet to keep Atlantis supplied, the Splugoorth are evil enough to do somehting like that, but I doubt they have the resources.

Meanwhile Lord Splynn's diefically created Portals which are NEVER closed an are large enough to bring entire ARMIES to the theater within hours is doing such 24 hours a day 7 days a week . At multiple sites along the FoM held Territory within days .(yes Days..) Millions arive with both full air combat support as well as complete supply depo's set up 100% with defensive positions having already been set up (hello ally alister's forces) the CS watches this an centerally localizes thier entire armies . Cs officers then decide to leave the navy in various positions along the rivers leading out to the Atlantic an hope they can attack this military armada from behind on a double prong attack . Totallity of CS military forces . (after tolkeen war ) 2 million man armies ( that is extreamly EXTREAMLY generous after thier tolkeen war efforts) With full support battalions ready as well as Air Combat wings all operational .

Interesting response, and probably pretty close to what might happen. With the exception of CS High Command shooting multiple nuclear missiles back through the portals and slaughtering the invaders on their side of the portal. Shoot fast enough and they might even get Splynncryth.

Atlantean Forces in FoM number into the tens of millions bolstered by the Troops directly under Alister Dunscon's authority . Complete Kittani armada's stand ready with full battalions of supplies mearly waiting . Entire batteries of K-TRF-M's on the standby ready to completly overwhelm the skies an completly own the air war . With several Deific portals set directly in the Kittani's home world for various reasons as well as several Deific portals leading to one of the home worlds of the Kydians litterally Lord Splynn has billions of Troops he could easily manuver ( or lose) ready at a whims notice.

Except Splynncryth only controls three planets, and probably doesn't want to see any of them, let alone Atlantis- the jewel in his crown, nuked to a radio-active cinder or embroiled in a massive slave revolt. The chance of getting his own tentacles fried is yet more reason to not try this.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

I'm curious, what overwhelming advantage would dragons convey in the first place? Granted they're hard to kill and can often weild impressive magic, but they're hardly world-beaters.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of Raid?

Samored II wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

I'm curious, what overwhelming advantage would dragons convey in the first place? Granted they're hard to kill and can often weild impressive magic, but they're hardly world-beaters.

The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

dark brandon wrote:Because it's stated in atlantis I believe that the greatest threat the splugorth face is going to be the vampire kingdoms. In fact the only thing that has kept him from cleaning Middle america is that the force he'd use would scare the rest of the world. While not an immediate threat, it is a great threat none-the-less

And the fact that it's not an immediate threat and not some big quick attack etc means it's a lot harder to track them all down. It seems like it's much easier to foresee one large big attack then a bunch of small vampires that are a long term threat.


Daniel Stoker

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of
Raid?

Hardly writers fiat...

If you read RMB and RUE, you'll note that dragons are extreamly territorial, and knows when another dragon enters it's home within 50 miles.

Taking this into consideration, it's possible none of these ancient and adult dragons considered tolkeen their "home", but rather a place to visit (Since they can live for a very long time, spending 20 years isn't much time at all to them), thus being able to tolerate each others presents. So, when the invading army attacked, they didn't see it as an attack on their home but rather a place they are visiting, they probably saw no reason to risk life and limb for it.

Samored II wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:So did Tolkeen.
Different means, but means nonetheless.

Tolkeen had a nuclear weapons program? Tolkeen knew someone who could get them nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had developed, or could develop, delivery systems for nuclear weapons? Tolkeen had targeting information for these delivery systems?

News to me. Enlighten me as to what source book these WMDs are contained in.

GM created TW Wardeads. THey hit and a huge rift opens up to the Biggest meanest monsters you've ever seen...

NOW that beats a nuke.

Definitely. Most definitely even. What book are those in again? Because I admit I missed them.

Probaly ned to make these on your own or check Rifters. I'm guessing Pally doesn't have these or you would have read about them. Dunscon certainly would have used them.

(Mental note: Read TW section on making weapons....)

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of
Raid?

Hardly writers fiat...

If you read RMB and RUE, you'll note that dragons are extreamly territorial, and knows when another dragon enters it's home within 50 miles.

Taking this into consideration, it's possible none of these ancient and adult dragons considered tolkeen their "home", but rather a place to visit (Since they can live for a very long time, spending 20 years isn't much time at all to them), thus being able to tolerate each others presents. So, when the invading army attacked, they didn't see it as an attack on their home but rather a place they are visiting, they probably saw no reason to risk life and limb for it.

And if you read about the dragons in Freehold, you'll discover they consider that their home and are as arrogant about human germs as the rest of their races. The *poof* method of removing them was writer's fiat at its worst.

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

CS force of 1 Deaths Head Transport on advanced recon mission with standard troop compliment for the mission .( 96 infantry,1/2 of them Samas) As it stops an starts to unload as per SoP of CS mission cycle .

Atlantean Force. 5 Highlords .(centeries of study in THREE fields of magic) each and every one of them . Spell strength = 10th lvl max. using ONLY two spells . Invisibility - Lesser (they can indeed attack while invisible an NOT break the spells duration of 3min/lvl = 30 minutes . Casting Invisibility prior to engaugment . Now each can cast it at 10th lvl making each enabled to port with 10,000 lbs max ( Ratio of 1 porter can thusly port up to 50 conservators ) 90 CONSERVATORS .(10 attacks per melee each )
** Note**
some fast stats here .
CS BODY ARMOR -CA-4 mdc Main Body -100 .
HIGH LORDS -100 to 400 naturally with out B.A. or any BIO-WIZARDRY
CONSERVATORS 1-400 naturally +350 Bio-wizardry .
CS Troops Human lvl strenght even IN Power armor .
High Lords / Conservators = supernatural strength.

Combat ensue's The 2 Highlords who ported the entirty of 91 Conservators directly INTO the CS based camp. All hell breaks loose as the conservators are invisible an able to do with the CS troops as they please . The High lords casting various offensive type spells esp the likes of Frequency jamming , (stopping the CS from callng for back up) Power bolts , Fire balls and energy bolts reign down upon the inside of the CS deaths head as the highlords simply walk right into the opened doors ..
Mean while the other 3 Highlords are all on Defensive casting . Casting such spells as Speed of snail , carpet of adhesion to slow any CS troops (trying to escape ) The CS deaths head is now owned by the very same sized force that it went against . 1to1 .
Personally this is how I see it happening . I do not think the 96 CS troops have a chance Key here the *USE of TELEPORTATION * for a suprise attack . 300 mile range per level . 10th lvl = 3,000 miles . The most sought after thing for ANY MILITARY IN THE WORLD is the ability to SUPRISE ** any threat . I used that very spell to show you EXACTLY how teleportation can be used in an overwhelming way . Course your just going to use some handwavium way to try to explain something to rationalize some way the CS "might" be able to wiggle out of this very demonstration . But lets remember what you asked .
**And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability? **


-Lenwen.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point . Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things . Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one .

Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit ..

-Lenwen.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of Raid?

If roaches invade the hotel you're staying in for a night, do you fight to your potential death, or do you simply leave?

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of Raid?

If roaches invade the hotel you're staying in for a night, do you fight to your potential death, or do you simply leave?

Depends good sir. Are said Roaches packin bio- wizard armor , Rune Weapons , or virtually any Kittani made weapons ..


-Lenwen.

Mark Hall wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of Raid?

If roaches invade the hotel you're staying in for a night, do you fight to your potential death, or do you simply leave?

I'd kill them.

**Teleportation(sup)** 10th lvl. 3k mile range 5 ton wt limit.

Check THIS out ..

1 Kydian High lord(10th lvl) whos already been to North American Continent .
Teleports to N.A. taking with him 10,000lbs or equivelent in this demonstration that equivelent= 50 other highlord Kydians which equates to 51 Kydian highlords now know exactly where to go .
Those 50 each take 50 other High Lords. Now 2500 kydian high lords can teleport to N.A. continent. 2500 take 50 each = 125,000 Kydian High lords who can now teleport directly to N.A. continent an take any 50 combinations of Kydian's . ( Powerlords , Over Lords , anything they can be) Kydian known populations number into the Billions per splugorthian intelligence . Total overal population 100,000 Kydian High Lords can teleport is a ratio of 50-1 or in other words 5 million man army .

** Side note**
----New York to Mexico City Mexico is a distance of 2,086 miles .( refrence for the 10th lvl casting of Teleport sup range of 3,000 miles)

Resources needed = Bio-wizard wrist gaurds with a 6th lvl spell of ..
--Sustain-- 24 hours/lvl no food ,rest, meditation needed (6th lvl=6days)
------------- every 6 days there after every minion IS equiped with that
------------- bracer simply engauges that ability again and again and again.

This is also with the Kittanian's Tech ( K-TRF-M) mach 7 , range unlimited. 6 Battalions( 6000 - 27,000) could leave Atlantis be in theater in two hours stay( mach 7=5,390mph) for several hours then head back to Atlantis another two hours . ( time 2 target=2 hrs , Time in theater=2 hours , Time to base= 2 hours Total operation time = 6 hours per rotation.)

Simple way to get around the whole ineptitude of the Kittanians technological supply lanes ...

Course that is just my personal view on how two spells used wisely could change the balance of power anywhere in the world .

-Lenwen.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of
Raid?

Hardly writers fiat...

If you read RMB and RUE, you'll note that dragons are extreamly territorial, and knows when another dragon enters it's home within 50 miles.

Taking this into consideration, it's possible none of these ancient and adult dragons considered tolkeen their "home", but rather a place to visit (Since they can live for a very long time, spending 20 years isn't much time at all to them), thus being able to tolerate each others presents. So, when the invading army attacked, they didn't see it as an attack on their home but rather a place they are visiting, they probably saw no reason to risk life and limb for it.

And if you read about the dragons in Freehold, you'll discover they consider that their home and are as arrogant about human germs as the rest of their races. The *poof* method of removing them was writer's fiat at its worst.

Which is where the real writers fiat began. Dragons do not (as per RUE and RMB) live in areas close to each other. Note, I only found one place where it said dragons concider tolkeen their home. Near the end of the "siege notes: it's time to pack up and find a new home".

So, that leaves an interesting "what if". If canon follows itself, then 1) Xiticix would have acted differently and 2) so would have dragons.

This would have changed the story a great deal. First, Dragons would not have a city. You may have 1 ancient powerful dragon ruled city, but you won't have many dragons. without the dragons the sorcerers revenge may not have worked the way it thought. HOlmes may not have been forced north, but had he been, it would still be known as "holmes blunder".

Lenwen wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point . Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things . Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one .

Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit ..

-Lenwen.

Lets not get rude or insulting. That's what got the last thread locked.

He had a valid question, and you showed how it can be done. If you don't like his comments though, then either refute them without being condescending, please refrain from posting, as I rather enjoy this topic, and would hate for it to be locked because you don't agree with someone on how a fictitious fantasy game war would play out.

seriously, was there even a point about the thread in this post other than the remarks about Samored?

dark brandon wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point . Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things . Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one .

Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit ..

-Lenwen.

Lets not get rude or insulting. That's what got the last thread locked.

He had a valid question, and you showed how it can be done. If you don't like his comments though, then either refute them without being condescending, please refrain from posting, as I rather enjoy this topic, and would hate for it to be locked because you don't agree with someone on how a fictitious fantasy game war would play out.

seriously, was there even a point about the thread in this post other than the remarks about Samored?

Sorry, but there are multiple posts from multiple people about the usefulness of teleportation, especially against non-magical foes like the CS, and how that ability, combined with others, could cripple the CS if used properly.
Unless the reader assumes the CS is omniscient, as some do.
That's why I've stated, and this is the third time, that some topics are beating a dead horse.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:This is a dead horse being beaten to death but since Tolkeen had adult and ancient dragons available to it, and since clairvoyance isn't a "precise art"... do the math and read other threads where this topic has come up.

Actually, it was stated that the majority of adult and ancient dragons had nothing to do with the war. They fled, so having a large horde of dragons doesn't mean you win. It's just a false sense of security.

Again, more writer's fiat.
When roaches invade your home, do you leave or do you buy a can of
Raid?

Hardly writers fiat...

If you read RMB and RUE, you'll note that dragons are extreamly territorial, and knows when another dragon enters it's home within 50 miles.

Taking this into consideration, it's possible none of these ancient and adult dragons considered tolkeen their "home", but rather a place to visit (Since they can live for a very long time, spending 20 years isn't much time at all to them), thus being able to tolerate each others presents. So, when the invading army attacked, they didn't see it as an attack on their home but rather a place they are visiting, they probably saw no reason to risk life and limb for it.

And if you read about the dragons in Freehold, you'll discover they consider that their home and are as arrogant about human germs as the rest of their races. The *poof* method of removing them was writer's fiat at its worst.

Which is where the real writers fiat began. Dragons do not (as per RUE and RMB) live in areas close to each other. Note, I only found one place where it said dragons concider tolkeen their home. Near the end of the "siege notes: it's time to pack up and find a new home".

So, that leaves an interesting "what if". If canon follows itself, then 1) Xiticix would have acted differently and 2) so would have dragons.

This would have changed the story a great deal. First, Dragons would not have a city. You may have 1 ancient powerful dragon ruled city, but you won't have many dragons. without the dragons the sorcerers revenge may not have worked the way it thought. HOlmes may not have been forced north, but had he been, it would still be known as "holmes blunder".

Then again, Atlantis also has many dragons living in the same area, as does a certain kingdom in South America...
Which makes me think dragons, being intelligent beings, can tolerate eachothers' presence, albeit with a certain amount of back-stabbing, occasional challenges for supremacy, et al.

dark brandon wrote ;
Lets not get rude or insulting
--- I apologize -- Can you tho tell me where it was that I was rude or insulting ? As it is not my intention nor my way of doing things. I am a extreamly firm believer that no one has the right to insult or be rude to anyone based upon opionion and/or prefrences .

-- Let us tear down what I said piece by piece --
I wrote ;
Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point

Anyone reading the debating from an outside bias will concure this fact .
As evidenced : Toiletry , Scurvy , as well as Kittani tech( which he said flat out how do you know that Kittani dont have thier own tech ) were all brought up as possibilities of things that could stop a Kittani technological supply line. With out refrences ( e.i. Book names or Book names with pg# of possible refrences) A.K.A. -Speculation.

I wrote ;
Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things .

See above ...

I wrote;
Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one

-- Scurvy which is the lack of eating of perisheable foods . Kittani are technologically advanced species in thier own right ( prior to thier partnership with the splugorthian's ) So much so they fought the Mechanoids ( in all their billions and billions an billions of armies ) to a standstill for 7 years ( 38000 yrs ago) prior to even begin to see thier war was eventually going to fail .
Now having thusly said that about the Kittani . Bringing up Thier supply lines to N.A. continent can the CS do anything the mechanoids couldent ? As well as For all thier technical achievements they have yet to devope a system in which to store an keep perishable foods for extended periods of time ? Possible . Truely it is . But I highly dought it ..Thusly .. we come to the last statement in my previous post ..
---Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit .. ---
Scurvy , Toiletries , Lack of thier own racial technology ... all sounds of reaching .. if you ask me ..
( Just how did all them kittani waaaay out there in space get supply's with billions an billions and billions of Mechanoids harasing them?)


-Lenwen.

Beni wrote:Talavar, kudos to you for supporting the real answer. (And doing all the research and having the know-how to back it up, because I'm too lazy to do it myself.)

The small band of groups waving their little coalition flag in the sidelines? Sorry, it wouldn't happen.

Unless of course, their script immunity came up. And a certain writer pulls some crap /more/ crap out their butts. Which I wouldn't be suprized if I saw again.

Agreed and seconded.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Seconded. Just as bad as saying that the Kittani can't have Nukes because they don't have the vehicles to carry them. They are constantly making new types of Power Armour/Robots and vehilces. Sure there is no real number but commen sense would say otherwise.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Then again, Atlantis also has many dragons living in the same area, as does a certain kingdom in South America...
Which makes me think dragons, being intelligent beings, can tolerate eachothers' presence, albeit with a certain amount of back-stabbing, occasional challenges for supremacy, et al.

It was also pointed out that dragons, are in a different league of "arrogance" than humans. THey may be intelligent beings, but that doesn't mean they act like a human would.
They may tolerate each others presents, which is supported, but living near each other (or at least the place they call home) isn't something they do, or at least by canon. Yet you have multiple examples of them doing so. In the same respect in canon you have xiticix act a certain way, yet you have an example of them doing something completely different.

You can't call the Xiticix "writers fiat" and not include City of dragons in it as well.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Sorry, but there are multiple posts from multiple people about the usefulness of teleportation, especially against non-magical foes like the CS, and how that ability, combined with others, could cripple the CS if used properly.
Unless the reader assumes the CS is omniscient, as some do.
That's why I've stated, and this is the third time, that some topics are beating a dead horse.

Very true and seconded. Not to mention that somehow the CS should be immune to everything and everybody who attacks them. There is a definite CS is bias and for the most part I ignore it. It gets hard when the CS not matter how outclassed is always and I mean always the winner.

Lenwen wrote:dark brandon wrote ;
Lets not get rude or insulting
--- I apologize -- Can you tho tell me where it was that I was rude or insulting ? As it is not my intention nor my way of doing things. I am a extreamly firm believer that no one has the right to insult or be rude to anyone based upon opionion and/or prefrences .

-- Let us tear down what I said piece by piece --
I wrote ;
Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point

Anyone reading the debating from an outside bias will concure this fact .
As evidenced : Toiletry , Scurvy , as well as Kittani tech( which he said flat out how do you know that Kittani dont have thier own tech ) were all brought up as possibilities of things that could stop a Kittani technological supply line. With out refrences ( e.i. Book names or Book names with pg# of possible refrences) A.K.A. -Speculation.

I wrote ;
Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things .

See above ...

I wrote;
Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one

-- Scurvy which is the lack of eating of perisheable foods . Kittani are technologically advanced species in thier own right ( prior to thier partnership with the splugorthian's ) So much so they fought the Mechanoids ( in all their billions and billions an billions of armies ) to a standstill for 7 years ( 38000 yrs ago) prior to even begin to see thier war was eventually going to fail .
Now having thusly said that about the Kittani . Bringing up Thier supply lines to N.A. continent can the CS do anything the mechanoids couldent ? As well as For all thier technical achievements they have yet to devope a system in which to store an keep perishable foods for extended periods of time ? Possible . Truely it is . But I highly dought it ..Thusly .. we come to the last statement in my previous post ..
---Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit .. ---
Scurvy , Toiletries , Lack of thier own racial technology ... all sounds of reaching .. if you ask me ..
( Just how did all them kittani waaaay out there in space get supply's with billions an billions and billions of Mechanoids harasing them?)

-Lenwen.

I can see a point in his argument. I'd concider myself outside bias because, in the end it's a game. For example: It was long ago the kitani fought the mechanoids. They were saved by the splugorth. But, dispite being very loyal are still concidered slaves. Thus, no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research. Now, why would this be? Splurogth may fear an uprising. By making it so they are dependant on many things from the AI, it helps ensure their status as slaves. I don't agree with the Scurvy mind you, but there is good reasoning that Kitani may not have access to anything beyond what is mentioned in the atlantis books, including nukes...and especially nukes. For example, they are facinated by magic...but are forbidden to learn it. THose who do learn it are killed. Why? Probably because the splurgorth has little trust. Most of the kittani weapons are not much better than CS's or triax. You'd think after fighting the mechanoids +38000 years they'd have developed stuff a little better, but, even the dragon dreadnaught is stated as "having fought the mechanoids".

Sureshot wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Sorry, but there are multiple posts from multiple people about the usefulness of teleportation, especially against non-magical foes like the CS, and how that ability, combined with others, could cripple the CS if used properly.
Unless the reader assumes the CS is omniscient, as some do.
That's why I've stated, and this is the third time, that some topics are beating a dead horse.

Very true and seconded. Not to mention that somehow the CS should be immune to everything and everybody who attacks them. There is a definite CS is bias and for the most part I ignore it. It gets hard when the CS not matter how outclassed is always and I mean always the winner.

Yep...all 1 times.

dark brandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Then again, Atlantis also has many dragons living in the same area, as does a certain kingdom in South America...
Which makes me think dragons, being intelligent beings, can tolerate eachothers' presence, albeit with a certain amount of back-stabbing, occasional challenges for supremacy, et al.

It was also pointed out that dragons, are in a different league of "arrogance" than humans. THey may be intelligent beings, but that doesn't mean they act like a human would.
They may tolerate each others presents, which is supported, but living near each other (or at least the place they call home) isn't something they do, or at least by canon. Yet you have multiple examples of them doing so. In the same respect in canon you have xiticix act a certain way, yet you have an example of them doing something completely different.

You can't call the Xiticix "writers fiat" and not include City of dragons in it as well.

Dragcona "City of Dragons" Total population of Dragons = 1 to 6,000 out of a population of 3.7 million. equating to a ration of dragons to everone else of roughly 1 dragon outta 3,700 people ( for 1000dragons ) or 1 dragon outta every 616 people .(6000 dragons) Not to mention that is in an area that covers 125 sq miles ... (atlantis pg 30)
**Note**
The entire population of dragons (with the notible exeption of Its City Leader) is also a Transient Population . (Atlantis pg 30) So it will fluctuat accordingly 1 dragon to every 616 people one day then it can jump to 1 dragon to every 3,700 people the very next day just as easily .
New Dragcona Dragon population of 1 to 400 out of a population of 65,000 making that ratio 1 (dragon) - 162 (everyone else) at best .And 1(dragon)-650(everyone else) South America,pg75

Just some thoughts ...
**EDIT**
just found this as well about dragon sociaty or lack there of .. Dragons an Gods book,pg 9 -- Dragons have no apparent society or feeling of kinship even among the same species , at least not by HUMAN standards.

-Lenwen.

dark branden wrote
long ago the kitani fought the mechanoids. They were saved by the splugorth. But, dispite being very loyal are still concidered slaves. Thus, no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research.





The Kittani build better bots weapons power armor even then Triax systems ( which are ahead of even the CS ) Atlantis pg 54. under Kittani weapons n bots .
As for the key part of your statement up above " no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research I have to introduce the K-1000 Spider Defense System (atlantis ,pg138) It flat out says the Kittani geniuses have " developed" that system .
WB;21 pg164+ offers all sorts of new kittani weapons bots an power armor . South America pg,154 Splugorthian Slaver Mothership is a Kittani & Kydian combined design .As is the Splugorthian Slaver Ship . No mention was it ever that the Kittani prior to becoming slaves ever "TOOK" slaves an since thats the case one could say Research an Development never stopped .I currently do not have access to anything from Phase world after the Rule book itself . But I specifically remember an Entire section of one or two of the books detailing in Great detail the abilities of some of the Kittani developed star ships ( mostly fighters iirc tho ) .

WB(6) pg 79 even states the Kittani series of mecha " the Carnosarus" series are in fact a NEW line as of that PA time/date. Kittani were inspired an in awe of the gracfullness an sleekness of Earths Dinosaures even from fossil records dating back to the cretaceous and jurassic era .

-Lenwen.

Lenwen wrote:
CS force of 1 Deaths Head Transport on advanced recon mission with standard troop compliment for the mission .( 96 infantry,1/2 of them Samas) As it stops an starts to unload as per SoP of CS mission cycle .

96 infantry on a recon mission and not one single dog-boy or psi-stalker in the group? Not one single soldier bothering to make an infra-red scan of the area?

Atlantean Force. 5 Highlords .(centeries of study in THREE fields of magic) each and every one of them . Spell strength = 10th lvl max. using ONLY two spells . Invisibility - Lesser (they can indeed attack while invisible an NOT break the spells duration of 3min/lvl = 30 minutes . Casting Invisibility prior to engaugment . Now each can cast it at 10th lvl making each enabled to port with 10,000 lbs max ( Ratio of 1 porter can thusly port up to 50 conservators ) 90 CONSERVATORS .(10 attacks per melee each )
** Note**
some fast stats here .
CS BODY ARMOR -CA-4 mdc Main Body -100 .
HIGH LORDS -100 to 400 naturally with out B.A. or any BIO-WIZARDRY
CONSERVATORS 1-400 naturally +350 Bio-wizardry .
CS Troops Human lvl strenght even IN Power armor .
High Lords / Conservators = supernatural strength.

Combat ensue's The 2 Highlords who ported the entirty of 91 Conservators directly INTO the CS based camp. All hell breaks loose as the conservators are invisible an able to do with the CS troops as they please . The High lords casting various offensive type spells esp the likes of Frequency jamming , (stopping the CS from callng for back up) Power bolts , Fire balls and energy bolts reign down upon the inside of the CS deaths head as the highlords simply walk right into the opened doors ..
Mean while the other 3 Highlords are all on Defensive casting . Casting such spells as Speed of snail , carpet of adhesion to slow any CS troops (trying to escape ) The CS deaths head is now owned by the very same sized force that it went against . 1to1 .
Personally this is how I see it happening . I do not think the 96 CS troops have a chance Key here the *USE of TELEPORTATION * for a suprise attack . 300 mile range per level . 10th lvl = 3,000 miles . The most sought after thing for ANY MILITARY IN THE WORLD is the ability to SUPRISE ** any threat . I used that very spell to show you EXACTLY how teleportation can be used in an overwhelming way . Course your just going to use some handwavium way to try to explain something to rationalize some way the CS "might" be able to wiggle out of this very demonstration . But lets remember what you asked .
**And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability? **

An even more overwhelming ability is that of being able to metagame against stacked odds.

Lenwen wrote:dark branden wrote
long ago the kitani fought the mechanoids. They were saved by the splugorth. But, dispite being very loyal are still concidered slaves. Thus, no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research.





The Kittani build better bots weapons power armor even then Triax systems ( which are ahead of even the CS ) Atlantis pg 54. under Kittani weapons n bots .
As for the key part of your statement up above " no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research I have to introduce the K-1000 Spider Defense System (atlantis ,pg138) It flat out says the Kittani geniuses have " developed" that system .
WB;21 pg164+ offers all sorts of new kittani weapons bots an power armor . South America pg,154 Splugorthian Slaver Mothership is a Kittani & Kydian combined design .As is the Splugorthian Slaver Ship . No mention was it ever that the Kittani prior to becoming slaves ever "TOOK" slaves an since thats the case one could say Research an Development never stopped .I currently do not have access to anything from Phase world after the Rule book itself . But I specifically remember an Entire section of one or two of the books detailing in Great detail the abilities of some of the Kittani developed star ships ( mostly fighters iirc tho ) .

WB(6) pg 79 even states the Kittani series of mecha " the Carnosarus" series are in fact a NEW line as of that PA time/date. Kittani were inspired an in awe of the gracfullness an sleekness of Earths Dinosaures even from fossil records dating back to the cretaceous and jurassic era .

-Lenwen.

Each of those weapons systems has one thing in common. It has no chance of seriously harming the Kitanni's masters.

Lenwen wrote:-- Let us tear down what I said piece by piece --
I wrote ;
Yeah . Samored II does obviously use what ever he can to try to dispell anything even cannon books he tries to argue the point

Here's a challenge for you, show me where I have taken a position that contradicts canon. Not your interpretation of canon, mind you, but written, settled canon.

Anyone reading the debating from an outside bias will concure this fact .
As evidenced : Toiletry , Scurvy , as well as Kittani tech( which he said flat out how do you know that Kittani dont have thier own tech ) were all brought up as possibilities of things that could stop a Kittani technological supply line. With out refrences ( e.i. Book names or Book names with pg# of possible refrences) A.K.A. -Speculation.

True it was all speculation, on your part. You blithely assumed all these systems would be in place without, as you insist upon, canon references.
Just like you continue to insist that Atlantis has the full gamut of Phase World technology, in mothballs somewhere.

I wrote ;
Yet wont EVER ever present where his refrences are from Book or pg #. His mearly suggesting something equates to reality . At least in the Debates I have tried to have with him he has shown me only those very things .

See above ...

I wrote;
Kinda made me laugh tho when he asked straight up What happens if the Kittani fleets from atlantis enrout to NA continent caught Scurvy . ( in 8 to 10 days mind you ) I will always LOVE that one

EQUILIVENT OF SCURVY!!! If you're going to continue to slander me, at least have the decency not to continue to mis-quote me.

Scurvy which is the lack of eating of perisheable foods . Kittani are technologically advanced species in thier own right ( prior to thier partnership with the splugorthian's ) So much so they fought the Mechanoids ( in all their billions and billions an billions of armies ) to a standstill for 7 years ( 38000 yrs ago) prior to even begin to see thier war was eventually going to fail .
Now having thusly said that about the Kittani . Bringing up Thier supply lines to N.A. continent can the CS do anything the mechanoids couldent ? As well as For all thier technical achievements they have yet to devope a system in which to store an keep perishable foods for extended periods of time ? Possible . Truely it is . But I highly dought it ..Thusly .. we come to the last statement in my previous post ..
---Reaching ? yeah .. just a little bit .. ---
Scurvy , Toiletries , Lack of thier own racial technology ... all sounds of reaching .. if you ask me ..
( Just how did all them kittani waaaay out there in space get supply's with billions an billions and billions of Mechanoids harasing them?)

Ever hear of ketracel white? Would you like to bet me there's not a bio-wizard equilivent.

Sureshot wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Ye Gods, if you don't know or realize just HOW much mayhem can be unleashed by a high-level Magic User -a veritable walking tank -can cause INSIDE your lines (near your Weapons Stockpiles, Supply Depots, et al., not to mention the Shock Factor of suddenly teleporting into midst of a unit), I don't see how else to logically reach a fella like that.

cornholioprime wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Ye Gods, if you don't know or realize just HOW much mayhem can be unleashed by a high-level Magic User -a veritable walking tank -can cause INSIDE your lines (near your Weapons Stockpiles, Supply Depots, et al., not to mention the Shock Factor of suddenly teleporting into midst of a unit), I don't see how else to logically reach a fella like that.

And if you likewise refuse to see how much mayhem would be averted if such a veritable walking tank encountered a Psi-Nullifier/Nega-Psychic or were cut by a Psi-Stalker with a vibro-blade, what then? Is is a symptom of unreachability to ask that the veritable walking tank construct the flimsiest of rationales for being able to teleport inside the CS lines? Where does the logical error then occur?

Samored II wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Samored II wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:
The ability to teleport for one.
Again, beating a dead horse.
I'm not a "fanboy" of either side, but since the CS fanboys are so vehement and blinded by bias, they're the ones I tend to contradict the most.
Were it the other way, I'd contradict the opposition as heavily (and have in the past).

And how is teleportation such an overwhelming ability?

Oh.
My.
God.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Ye Gods, if you don't know or realize just HOW much mayhem can be unleashed by a high-level Magic User -a veritable walking tank -can cause INSIDE your lines (near your Weapons Stockpiles, Supply Depots, et al., not to mention the Shock Factor of suddenly teleporting into midst of a unit), I don't see how else to logically reach a fella like that.

And if you likewise refuse to see how much mayhem would be averted if such a veritable walking tank encountered a Psi-Nullifier/Nega-Psychic or were cut by a Psi-Stalker with a vibro-blade, what then? Is is a symptom of unreachability to ask that the veritable walking tank construct the flimsiest of rationales for being able to teleport inside the CS lines? Where does the logical error then occur?

By your views of Teleportation how would you use it to it's full potential?

My copy of CS war Machine has yet to arrive and as such might I inquire as to where it says in the book just mearly a pg refrence number stateing that the Coalition states have Psi-Nullifiers and or Nega-Psychic's ..I know for a fact they have Dog -boys . But Also since you brought that up .. How can the Dogboy psi stalkers or ANYONE in the ENITIRE coalition military structure at all have the ability to Psionically KNOW that a Dragon was about to Teleport Directly in thier Midst .. Which book in the entirty of the Palladium line is that psi power at as I cant seem to find it *NOTE* Just read entirty of both Dogpack RCC as well as Pys Stalker RCC no where does it state thier Immune to H.F. Adult Dragons H.F.= 12 to 18. I have a sneeky suspicion .. that insta poofing into a platton size formation every single soilder has to roll a HF Check or loss of Initiative .. ( call me silly) and or possibly run off scared or well any numerous other possible things . ( hope thats not considered metagaming )

-Lenwen.

Samored II wrote:Not one single soldier bothering to make an infra-red scan of the area?

--1-- infra-red scan everything you like . teleportation has extended ranges that go beyond vision range . I think we can all agree that to be fact .

Samored II wrote:
Each of those weapons systems has one thing in common. It has no chance of seriously harming the Kitanni's masters.

---2---Sorry but your avoiding the actual debat .. Which was that under the Splugorthians Kittani not being able to do R & D of newer technologies ....

Samored II wrote:
Here's a challenge for you, show me where I have taken a position that contradicts canon. Not your interpretation of canon, mind you, but written, settled canon.

---3-- Ok .. here you go ..

Samored II wrote:
Multiple stone masters (zillions of them if we are to believe some opinions here)

---4--- I can see that you might be trying to say that Lord Splynncryth could not possibly have Zillions upon Zillions of Kydians personally .. but then the burden of proof would fall to you that he does not have Billions upon Billions on any one of his single planets in other dimensions that he could rift into Rifts earth with relative Impunity .. OH yeah I forgot to mention it is Stated that Lord Splynncryth holds an control's 3 entire planets .

Samored II wrote:
You blithely assumed all these systems would be in place without, as you insist upon, canon references

And how is this different from your views of the CS an thier strategic abilities with out cannon refrences ? Atlantis is Technologically more advanced then the NGR in ALL weaponry NGR tech owns the CS tech . Therfore Logical assumption would dictate that Atlantean Tech is more advanced then CS tech .. ( unless you want to create a paradox = Atlantis weaponry is greater then NGR weaponry which is greater then Coalition weaponry which is better then Atlantean Weaponry ) Sorry but that is not metagaming either heh its been stated ..

Conversly I will not be the reason this hugely benificial Thread is locked so I apologize for anything that I may have said to ruffle feathersI am not being sarcastic or anything but genuinly WANT this thread to go on .. Anything other then an actual DEBATE said to verify my logic ( an cannonized refrences )or to conversly debunk it I will happily converse with but will not be drawn into any sort of conflict from this point on and again I am sorry for my parts in any ..


-Lenwen

Lenwen wrote: The Kittani build better bots weapons power armor even then Triax systems ( which are ahead of even the CS ) Atlantis pg 54. under Kittani weapons n bots .

I said they were better, just not much better. A comparison of weapons shows that they are not that much more advanced than what the CS and Triax have.

As for the key part of your statement up above " no where is the notion they have been allowed to continue research I have to introduce the K-1000 Spider Defense System (atlantis ,pg138) It flat out says the Kittani geniuses have " developed" that system .
WB;21 pg164+ offers all sorts of new kittani weapons bots an power armor . South America pg,154 Splugorthian Slaver Mothership is a Kittani & Kydian combined design .As is the Splugorthian Slaver Ship . No mention was it ever that the Kittani prior to becoming slaves ever "TOOK" slaves an since thats the case one could say Research an Development never stopped .I currently do not have access to anything from Phase world after the Rule book itself . But I specifically remember an Entire section of one or two of the books detailing in Great detail the abilities of some of the Kittani developed star ships ( mostly fighters iirc tho ) .

You have a point on the Spider DS, but the rest...even new items in WB 21 do not suggest they are "recent" advancements.

Sure they took slaves. Pg 52 "...they see most other life forms as inferiors waiting to be conquered, enslaved and tormented."

WB(6) pg 79 even states the Kittani series of mecha " the Carnosarus" series are in fact a NEW line as of that PA time/date. Kittani were inspired an in awe of the gracfullness an sleekness of Earths Dinosaures even from fossil records dating back to the cretaceous and jurassic era .

-Lenwen.

So they do have R&D. Now how truely advanced is it.

Let me put it this way. Mechanoids, as we know them are fairly serious beings. Which means the kittani had to have had MD weapons to fight the mechanoids. In the 38,000 years after their initial fight, how much farther along are they? In comparison to Rifts earth, CS and Triax (assuming they utilize Golden age tech) have achived relitivly close powers in about 500 years as the kittani have done in 38,000+ years.

Lenwen wrote:My copy of CS war Machine has yet to arrive and as such might I inquire as to where it says in the book just mearly a pg refrence number stateing that the Coalition states have Psi-Nullifiers and or Nega-Psychic's

Pg 195? (give or take) has a breakdown of the psi-battalion. About 3% of all of the CS psychics are Nullifiers (Nullifiers and Nega-psychics and anyone else who seem to have a strong resistance to psionics and magic)

..I know for a fact they have Dog -boys . But Also since you brought that up .. How can the Dogboy psi stalkers or ANYONE in the ENITIRE coalition military structure at all have the ability to Psionically KNOW that a Dragon was about to Teleport Directly in thier Midst .. Which book in the entirty of the Palladium line is that psi power at as I cant seem to find it *NOTE* Just read entirty of both Dogpack RCC as well as Pys Stalker RCC no where does it state thier Immune to H.F. Adult Dragons H.F.= 12 to 18. I have a sneeky suspicion .. that insta poofing into a platton size formation every single soilder has to roll a HF Check or loss of Initiative .. ( call me silly) and or possibly run off scared or well any numerous other possible things . ( hope thats not considered metagaming )

-Lenwen.

They don't "know". What probably happens is that the CS doesn't run in when something "poofs" in and starts shooting. More than likely, they annalize their enemie, and if it's a dragon they know they have to hit it hard and fast or else he'll be back. This may mean setting up a trap or waiting and hitting him before he can teleport out. Basically, in game terms they have to hit and kill him before he gets his next attack action to teleport away. So a dragon gets to run amok for about 30 min, with minimal resistance, and then POW, in a single corridnated attack, are hit by a couple of hundred skelebots, samas missles and lazer fire.

Lenwen wrote:Dragcona "City of Dragons" Total population of Dragons = 1 to 6,000 out of a population of 3.7 million. equating to a ration of dragons to everone else of roughly 1 dragon outta 3,700 people ( for 1000dragons ) or 1 dragon outta every 616 people .(6000 dragons) Not to mention that is in an area that covers 125 sq miles ... (atlantis pg 30)
**Note**
The entire population of dragons (with the notible exeption of Its City Leader) is also a Transient Population . (Atlantis pg 30) So it will fluctuat accordingly 1 dragon to every 616 people one day then it can jump to 1 dragon to every 3,700 people the very next day just as easily .
New Dragcona Dragon population of 1 to 400 out of a population of 65,000 making that ratio 1 (dragon) - 162 (everyone else) at best .And 1(dragon)-650(everyone else) South America,pg75

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than if for some reason more mortals = you can have more dragons in an area. That isn't what RUE and RMB state.

RMB: "Instinctivly dislike other dragons. They tend to be very intolerant and petty when dealing with other of their ilk...Mature dragons will often attempt to kill younger dragons whenever encountered."

"...even a friendly dragons knee-jerk reaction is to kill. Fortunately this reaction can be controled."

"The dragon will NOT tolerate the presence of another dragon within his territory".

It is worthy to mention that it says dragons (especially culterally advanced) can develop friendships with other dragons, but in no way does this state they will tolerate them in their territory.

dark brandon wrote:I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than if for some reason more mortals = you can have more dragons in an area. That isn't what RUE and RMB state.

Point -- We as mortals do not an could not understand Dragon Sociaty . I pulled source material outta a book designed with dragons in mind.

Point -- City of Dragons ENTIRE population of Dragons with notable exeption of perhaps several key leaders in fact are a TRANSIEANT population thusly meaning yeah they MIGHT stay a few weeks or even months but by and large they do not LIVE in said city. ( Goes for South American City as well)

Point -- Chaing-Ku dragons get along famously with Kukulcan dragons and OTHER dragons of good alignment .( D&G p23) IT then goes on with I think 12 different species of dragons an actually says which dragons inveriably "could" be friends with which "OTHER" dragons . The Legendary Fire Dragon is "Amazingly" tolerant of fellow dragons ( other then other fire dragons ) (D&Gp27) I could do that for 12 species of dragons .
To say that mearly every dragon is A- same species and B- All dragons in a givin area are all inhearntly evil ( an thusly wanna kill all other dragons) is a bit of a metagame type thing if you ask me .. Honestly I would say that you would have to find out at least a couple things .. A-- How many are Baby dragons ? B-- How many dragons are a mated pair ?
Course this is just my way of understanding it with out of game knolodge of thier Sociaty .. or lack there of ..

-Lenwen.

dark brandon wrote:About 3% of all of the CS psychics are Nullifiers (Nullifiers and Nega-psychics and anyone else who seem to have a strong resistance to psionics and magic)

Ok lets say the CS military overall Strength as it sits right now ( after tolkeen) is roughly 1.5 million . 3% of said number is 45,000 thats 45,000 divided by multiple classes Nullifiers and Nega Psychics as well as various other classes with the ability to manipulate Psionics & magic ( to a lesser degree) That 3% are going to be deplyoed militarily to the highest % of Risk units that are going to face KNOWN area's of mystic rebellion ( least that is what comon military etiquet would dictate AKA Force Projection) Now lets also take into account the fact that the CS are basically now doing field clearing .. meaning thier going out an sweeping entire sector's and entire cliques of land area of gorrilla style tactic's from the Tolkeen incident . Basically the ones they could not handle or could not reach or the ones who decided to never leave .. are now being delt with . I'd place dollar to dollar that OF the previously mentioned 3% of 1.5million CS Troops ( 45,000) Psi-Nullifiers an Nega Psychic's at least a good solid 75% of them are doing just this in just the area I said ( theater) thats 33k+ of the 45k in or on rotations of the Tolkeen theater for mopping up .Leaving roughly 12,000 now to cover any other operations in ALL of the CS territories or perhaps on extended missions of exploration( recon) style missions . So basically the % chance of any other field ops having either of them availble to the mission at hand goes down massivly .

dark brandon wrote:They don't "know". What probably happens is that the CS doesn't run in when something "poofs" in and starts shooting.

Never use Horrer Factor ? ok perhaps the dragon used magic to look like a human teleports in toss's a fusion block into a formation of CS soilders ... or a Timed Bomb with perhaps as little as 3 seconds left .. as he tosses the item an ports back out ..

dark brandon wrote:This may mean setting up a trap or waiting and hitting him before he can teleport out.

That would entail at LEAST a couple Psi Nullifiers or Nega-Psychic wouldent it ? IF they were able to get initiative .. oh wait Suprise attack automatically goes TO the dragon . What action and /or attack would each do in one melee round ? The only ones outside of Psionics that would even know anything is going on ( teleported behind a platoon in formation would be anyone in about face position) .Turned backwords facing the soilders .

dark brandon wrote:Basically, in game terms they have to hit and kill him before he gets his next attack action to teleport away.

So basically action 1 is to turn around .. or so it would seem ? Dragons Turn to do what ever . /teleports away (innate ability)
--turn 1 -- Dragon ports in behind formation ( surprise attack Dragon hurls 1 fusion blocks at the platoon in formation ..
--turn 2 -- First Sergents an leaders facing men shout gettem Boys !! the platoon turns around ( altho not all at once ..)
--Turn 3-- Dragons turn .. /teleport out as per innate ability . ( They could successfully use this hit an run tactic endlessly .. )

Want a variation of this ? Dragon ports in an UNstacks a carried Vampire an ports out .. ( CS better be carrying some silver ..)

-Lenwen.

Lenwen wrote:

dark brandon wrote:About 3% of all of the CS psychics are Nullifiers (Nullifiers and Nega-psychics and anyone else who seem to have a strong resistance to psionics and magic)

Ok lets say the CS military overall Strength as it sits right now ( after tolkeen) is roughly 1.5 million . 3% of said number is 45,000 thats 45,000 divided by multiple classes Nullifiers and Nega Psychics as well as various other classes with the ability to manipulate Psionics & magic ( to a lesser degree) That 3% are going to be deplyoed militarily to the highest % of Risk units that are going to face KNOWN area's of mystic rebellion ( least that is what comon military etiquet would dictate AKA Force Projection) Now lets also take into account the fact that the CS are basically now doing field clearing .. meaning thier going out an sweeping entire sector's and entire cliques of land area of gorrilla style tactic's from the Tolkeen incident . Basically the ones they could not handle or could not reach or the ones who decided to never leave .. are now being delt with . I'd place dollar to dollar that OF the previously mentioned 3% of 1.5million CS Troops ( 45,000) Psi-Nullifiers an Nega Psychic's at least a good solid 75% of them are doing just this in just the area I said ( theater) thats 33k+ of the 45k in or on rotations of the Tolkeen theater for mopping up .Leaving roughly 12,000 now to cover any other operations in ALL of the CS territories or perhaps on extended missions of exploration( recon) style missions . So basically the % chance of any other field ops having either of them availble to the mission at hand goes down massivly .

dark brandon wrote:They don't "know". What probably happens is that the CS doesn't run in when something "poofs" in and starts shooting.

Never use Horrer Factor ? ok perhaps the dragon used magic to look like a human teleports in toss's a fusion block into a formation of CS soilders ... or a Timed Bomb with perhaps as little as 3 seconds left .. as he tosses the item an ports back out ..

dark brandon wrote:This may mean setting up a trap or waiting and hitting him before he can teleport out.

That would entail at LEAST a couple Psi Nullifiers or Nega-Psychic wouldent it ? IF they were able to get initiative .. oh wait Suprise attack automatically goes TO the dragon . What action and /or attack would each do in one melee round ? The only ones outside of Psionics that would even know anything is going on ( teleported behind a platoon in formation would be anyone in about face position) .Turned backwords facing the soilders .

dark brandon wrote:Basically, in game terms they have to hit and kill him before he gets his next attack action to teleport away.

So basically action 1 is to turn around .. or so it would seem ? Dragons Turn to do what ever . /teleports away (innate ability)
--turn 1 -- Dragon ports in behind formation ( surprise attack Dragon hurls 1 fusion blocks at the platoon in formation ..
--turn 2 -- First Sergents an leaders facing men shout gettem Boys !! the platoon turns around ( altho not all at once ..)
--Turn 3-- Dragons turn .. /teleport out as per innate ability . ( They could successfully use this hit an run tactic endlessly .. )

Want a variation of this ? Dragon ports in an UNstacks a carried Vampire an ports out .. ( CS better be carrying some silver ..)

-Lenwen.

Actually, your figures are a little off... it's 3% of psychics, nae soldiers.
So we can be generous and say that the CS has 25% of their forces psychic (which I doubt highly, it's probably closer to 15%, but what the hell); so 3% of that 25% would be nega-psychics or psi-nullifiers.And a dragon would likely, in addition to having defensive magics cast apon himself, also be using things like Meteor and Annihilate spells and scrolls. A properly equipped adult dragon (even a hatchling) could do considerable damage to either a military or civilian population.
Clairvoyance, as has been stated, isn't a precise science; premonitions are usually quite vague. So the CS psychics who actually HAVE clairvoyance wouldn't receive a sending like "An ancient Great Horned Dragon is going to teleport into Chi-Town, Level Five Sector Seven at 12:33:23 on Monday, December 13th, 109 PA." It would be more like "Scaly doom will strike the Great City during winter's chill soon after the sun begins its descent."
Of course, that's something to be worried about, and they'll probably double guards in all areas, hoping to create enough of a "speed-bump" to mount a response before too much damage is done.

Don't forget about the Vanguard who would most likely be providing Joseph Prosek and his contacts with intelligence on enemy troops locations, numbers, equipment, supply lines, etc.

A dragon porting in and out of combat dropping fusion blocks is just as dangerous as a group of Super SAMAS flying more than a thousand feet away and carpet bombing massive areas with their grenades and missiles. Or Glitterboy's sitting about a mile away and sniping people and acting as artillery...not to mention the actual artillery which is bombing the hell out of everything...and the jets which fly by at Mach 2-4 and drop bombs or do strafing runs with their guns far far far far far outside any mages casting range. Helicopters which again fly outside the average range and unleash hell with their missle payloads.

Sad thing about fighting against tech as a magic user is just the range factor...your average mage is what? level 4-7, if that? So that means on their best spell (Call Lightning, imo) which has a 100ft range per level means that mages within the average range are only effective anywhere between 400-700 feet. Now this doesn't mean that they can't pick up a rifle and start fireing back...but your typical magic user relies on their own magical abilities, they may have a pistol or rifle of some sort as backup and personal defense...but their just not as good as the CS with the same gear. They also have that armor issue where it interferes with their casting making them want to rely more on their own magical powers than tech. A one on one fight against a mage is something to fear mainly because they can effectivly utilize both tech and magic if say both people were around level 5 or 6...but in the world of mass combat...not so effective when your being bombed back to the stone age by artillery from dozens of miles away and by aircraft miles away.

Let me put it this way. Mechanoids, as we know them are fairly serious beings. Which means the kittani had to have had MD weapons to fight the mechanoids. In the 38,000 years after their initial fight, how much farther along are they? In comparison to Rifts earth, CS and Triax (assuming they utilize Golden age tech) have achived relitivly close powers in about 500 years as the kittani have done in 38,000+ years.

Thats hilarious.