Robotech® New Generation™ Sourcebook

[ESalter]

I've owned several first edition books; their problems cannot simply be blamed on HG. For example, Southern Cross contradicts itself on battloid power plants; that sort of mistake is the fault of the author or editor.

Granted, there are some minor editorial mistakes, but many of the errors in the "1st Edition" books are attributed to inadequate info from Harmony Gold by no less a person than Kevin Siembieda.

The carelessness of the first edition books is more than minor, and cannot be blamed on HG. I own a pair of them, and can provide as many examples as you need.

My emphasis:

You said:

Roger Harkavy took the material we know as the Imai Files to Harmony Gold in an effort to get it published as an official Robotech art book.

Indeed I did, and you still fail to grasp the basic distinction between printing something in an official art book and making something a part of the official Robotech setting. You may want to note that the former does not imply the latter.

My emphasis:

And why did you put the "creative" in "creative staff" in quotes?

Please tell me you're not seriously asking me to explain that.

I assume it's because you felt like casually insulting people in passing; I brought it up in the hope of eliciting a small amount of shame.

Not even close, and no such luck.

Well?

[Seto Kaiba]

i am sure will be put off till next winter or summer ... been this long why change now?... as i have said before eventually people will lose interest cause takes to long to get out... hate to be negative ... but the truth hurts..and the proof is in the pudding.

Eh... I wouldn't say that's negativity, just tough honesty. In order to keep interest in a title up, you have to get product out there at reasonable intervals. Not doing so can result in the fans and casual audience to lose interest as time goes on. Tossing out a couple of relatively minor releases in the interim could go a long way toward fixing that.

Since the spaceships compendium book seems to be such a sore spot, they could easily use that to fill the gap, and split the one monolithic release into two or three smaller publications by saga, and do them as a low-cost supplement... "Ships of the Macross Saga", "Ships of the Robotech Masters Saga", and "Ships of the New Generation" or something along those lines.

The carelessness of the first edition books is more than minor, and cannot be blamed on HG. I own a pair of them, and can provide as many examples as you need.

No offense dude, but it's your word against the author's... and in this case I do think that the author is probably going to be more qualified to speak of the causes for the errors and other strange things in the 1st Edition books.

[Tiree]

This in itself is a reason not to print the Shimakaze. The only one that was made, was destroyed. The next in the series could be and most likely altered in some way shape or form.

Considering this is a Shadow Chronicles RPG we're talking about, that the ship was the backdrop for roughly half of the movie and a major player in even the prequel comics for the movie, including it should've been a no-brainer regardless of its fate at the end of the film.

As I have said - you are right, it should have been in there for the amount of support Robotech is getting from PB. Of course PB thought it was going to provide a bit more support to Robotech than it is currently getting. And having a dedicated full time writer be let go who worked on the Robotech Line probably would have kept the momentum going. Since they let him go, looking back at it, they should have. Wow, hindsight is really 20/20!

[...] if you don't like it - well, become a writer for PB.

Wading in personally to clear up the mess that is Robotech does sound appealing, but as I said before I doubt poor Tommy could cope with having the former robotech.com go-to info guy and token heretic in creative control of a Robotech product. Still, if they ask, sure, I'll happily sit down and finish the spaceships book for them. I'll even use my private library of Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada, and Robotech publications to get it all done right.

Well they are not going to call you up. You are going to need to pitch it to them. Because right now, you are all talk and no action. I don't know who you were or are. Just some guy on the internet who likes Robotech - Just like me. I could spout off all the fixes that need to be made, but unless I go to Kevin and say - Dude, I can fix this for you. Here is a sample of my work. Give me the job, and I'll take this much money, and give you a product at this time. He's not going to either a) know that I want the job and b) my quality of work.

So the proof is in the pudding. Give PB a call!

[Sgt Anjay]

For one, I fail to see what the robotech.com stats on the Tristar prove.

That none of these alleged other classes of ship are recognized as canon.

Very weak. Does that mean the Shimikazes aren't canon either? Cause that ship doesn't have stats on the site either. Oh look, neither does the SDF-4.

As if that particular issue wasn't enough of a pain, there's no coverage whatsoever for those ships in the OSM, with little difference in the animation apart from the position of the nozzles on its stern.

Then you obviously didn't look at the image I posted, because it points out the major differences which appear in the ships.

This, combined with the mechanical inconsistencies that crop up fairly frequently in the Southern Cross series and a noticeable lack of any recognition from the authority figures for Robotech, would seem to indicate that these aren't separate, deliberately different designs for the most part.

Where are there examples of mechanical inconsistencies on the order of ships with widely varying bridge structures, visible weapon loadouts, and main thruster arrangements? If its so inconsistent, why do the features I point out appear repeatedly, which rather points to consistency and intent?

If you have actual sources to argue for this being the result of a premeditated design decision by Southern Cross's creators and not just a theory cooked up by fans, please don't feel any hesitation in sharing it.

I have what can be clearly seen in the footage. Do you have any evidence? I missed the part where your fan theory is automatically correct in the face of what we can actually see just because you say it is.

Though why you're so keen on disparaging Tatsunoko and studio Ammonite by implying otherwise is beyond me.

It's not disparaging, it's a simple and honest statement about the series.

Care to throw in actual examples which would put your statements somewhere in the realm of fact instead of disparaging statements by someone with a stated dislike for the series?

[jaymz]

Har, har. I seem to remember that the Northampton-class Frigate from Macross 7/Plus/Frontier bears more than a slight resemblance to those ships from Southern Cross.

I watched both series multiple times. They do not look anything alike. At least not to me.

[Jefffar]

Warning: We're all fans here, lets not forget that and do silly things like call each other names or insult their intelligence.

[jaymz]

i am sure will be put off till next winter or summer ... been this long why change now?... as i have said before eventually people will lose interest cause takes to long to get out... hate to be negative ... but the truth hurts..and the proof is in the pudding.

Eh... I wouldn't say that's negativity, just tough honesty. In order to keep interest in a title up, you have to get product out there at reasonable intervals. Not doing so can result in the fans and casual audience to lose interest as time goes on. Tossing out a couple of relatively minor releases in the interim could go a long way toward fixing that.

Since the spaceships compendium book seems to be such a sore spot, they could easily use that to fill the gap, and split the one monolithic release into two or three smaller publications by saga, and do them as a low-cost supplement... "Ships of the Macross Saga", "Ships of the Robotech Masters Saga", and "Ships of the New Generation" or something along those lines.

The carelessness of the first edition books is more than minor, and cannot be blamed on HG. I own a pair of them, and can provide as many examples as you need.

No offense dude, but it's your word against the author's... and in this case I do think that the author is probably going to be more qualified to speak of the causes for the errors and other strange things in the 1st Edition books.

Actually PB does in fact state they had problems with source material, or lack there of, in a few of the 1st ed books. They "japanimation sidenotes" published for each series. SC was definitely the series with the least (by a VERY wide margin) amount of osm and as I recall they had 1 source and only one source and that was a single issue of This is Animation. At the time (mid to late 80's) there was really not much osm for any of the three series' so the problems for the 1st edition were a combination of author and lack of source material. Back then HG did not take the control over the game it has now. Proof of that is the fact PB published at least 4 books of material that have absolutely NO basis in ANY official source material of any of the three series'.

[jaymz]

Though why you're so keen on disparaging Tatsunoko and studio Ammonite by implying otherwise is beyond me.

It's not disparaging, it's a simple and honest statement about the series.

Care to throw in actual examples which would put your statements somewhere in the realm of fact instead of disparaging statements by someone with a stated dislike for the series?

Actually for the most part much of the info I have seen seems to indicate very poor production, poor rating, early cancellation as well as slew of other issues with the series' original production including things like not in fact detailing various things that are seen in the original series such as the different ships. Is it possible the ships themselves are in fact different sizes? Yes but unless there are scenes showing the scales between them then it is POSSIBLE they are all built on the same basic spaceframe and similar in size to the Tristar with the differences only being engine placement, weapon load, bridge structure and location of hanger bay doors.

[Seto Kaiba]

I could spout off all the fixes that need to be made, but unless I go to Kevin and say - Dude, I can fix this for you. Here is a sample of my work. Give me the job, and I'll take this much money, and give you a product at this time. He's not going to either a) know that I want the job and b) my quality of work.

So the proof is in the pudding. Give PB a call!

*shrug* The only sticking point I see in that idea is that "a sample of my work" would, in my case, mean a sample of my research work, since they don't have the license to publish the Macross II game anymore and my annotations and corrections to the Macross II: Lovers Again RPG are kind of extensive. Other than that, yeah... I guess I can ring 'em up and talk to them about it on Monday between meetings. After all, the worst they can do is say yes and condemn me to a couple weeks of being pestered by the impatient audience.

For one, I fail to see what the robotech.com stats on the Tristar prove.

That none of these alleged other classes of ship are recognized as canon.

Very weak. Does that mean the Shimikazes aren't canon either? Cause that ship doesn't have stats on the site either. Oh look, neither does the SDF-4.

Actually, it's quite a solid argument... you see, those alleged classes of ship you're arguing for aren't covered or even mentioned in any canon Robotech publication. On the other hand, the SDF-4 "Liberator" (or Izumo) and the Shimakaze-class are both at least referenced in sections of the Infopedia, and their stats and line art are printed in the official and canon Shadow Chronicles art book.

Where are there examples of mechanical inconsistencies on the order of ships with widely varying bridge structures, visible weapon loadouts, and main thruster arrangements? If its so inconsistent, why do the features I point out appear repeatedly, which rather points to consistency and intent?

Given the complete absence of any production art for the ships, the logical answer to this is that variation emerged because there wasn't a clearly-defined and polished final design that the animators could work from. Such variation isn't exactly uncommon in Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, what with the Zor Lords motherships changing size and scale at seemingly random intervals, and hovertank armaments going from firing projectiles to beams capable of ricocheting, to missiles at one point, etc.

[rtsurfer]

Not that I have any confidence in rt.com but some people consider its limited content canon, with that in mind there is a interesting line in the Tristar entry.
http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... .php?id=53

It also had powerful conventional engines, arranged into a cruciform pattern on the rear hull. Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

I would hope most people wouldn't confuse the Tristar with the Tokugawa nor the various shuttles, so what other second-generation naval vessels is the entry referring to?

[jaymz]

Not that I have any confidence in rt.com but some people consider its limited content canon, with that in mind there is a interesting line in the Tristar entry.
http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... .php?id=53

It also had powerful conventional engines, arranged into a cruciform pattern on the rear hull. Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

I would hope most people wouldn't confuse the Tristar with the Tokugawa nor the various shuttles, so what other second-generation naval vessels is the entry referring to?

That was why i suggested that maybe all the ships were of approximately equal size but had differing bridge structures, weapons, and hang bay door locations along with different engine configurations

[Sgt Anjay]

Not that I have any confidence in rt.com but some people consider its limited content canon, with that in mind there is a interesting line in the Tristar entry.
http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha ... .php?id=53

It also had powerful conventional engines, arranged into a cruciform pattern on the rear hull. Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

I would hope most people wouldn't confuse the Tristar with the Tokugawa nor the various shuttles, so what other second-generation naval vessels is the entry referring to?

That was why i suggested that maybe all the ships were of approximately equal size but had differing bridge structures, weapons, and hang bay door locations along with different engine configurations

This image shows the Banshee is significantly smaller than the Battle/Ardennes. Bridge shots agree. The Battle/Ardennes versus the Tristar is less easy to judge size-wise.

Multiple ships in a static pan shot (that being the one in the screenshot above, though it is not solitary) being widely different does not point to simple error; it would take an animator drawing two of the same ship different in the same cell, for a scene wherein they do not need to animate the ships moving, while they are sitting there able to look at the ship they just drew. Then, they do it again, with some ships getting the same "mistake" features, and others ships getting other, yet also previously existing, "mistake" features. Then they do it again. And again.

Widely varying external structures which nonetheless continue to identifiably reappear does not point to the same ship drawn wrong, it points to ships intended to be different.

The ships have many similarities. Then again...Its hard to tell many real-life ship classes apart without what to look for being pointed out by those already versed in it, so there you go.

At any rate, it is handy the infopedia pointed out the engine structure as the defining characteristic of the Tristar-class in comparison to the other 2nd generation ship classes...and even if two ships are of the same approximate size, that doesn't mean they are the same class.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I realize you don't like it, and believe me when I say I sympathize, but Harmony Gold is the final and ultimate arbiter of what is and is not official and canon in Robotech. They don't (and never have) listed these other alleged classes of ship as official, nor have the creators of Southern Cross... there's really only one conclusion you can reach from that if you intend to follow the canon, that these are variations on the Tristar-class spaceframe, not separate classes in their own right.

So, dialogue means nothing then, right?

Triumvirate
OFFICER: Sir! They got battle cruiser seven!

The Hunters
OPERATOR B: Attention . . . Earth defense Corp and all flagships . . . Stand by in second alert position until further orders are given. - Repeat. . Earth defense Corp and all flagships . . . Stand by in second alert position until further orders are given.

Mind Games
EARTH CONTROLLER: Moonbase, we are tele-monitoring the arrival of Transport Squadron 85

Oh, so that only leaves the smallest capital ship in the lineup (2 reaction engine) as unidentified in the anime. Oh, but that's right.

Robotech Book #9: The Final Nightmare
"Our remaining spacecraft number: one battlecruiser, two destroyer escorts, and one logistical support ship, all of which have suffered heavy damage," she said, looking squarely into the optical pickup.

We know the 2-engine model is not a Transport, since it was only part of the Attached Force (T-Squadron as per Dialogue) to Transport Squadron 85 and therefore, not a Transport. Its not a Battlecruiser, as per dialogue and its certainly not a Flagship.

So, please explain to me where I was engaging in Fan Canon?

[jaymz]

and even if two ships are of the same approximate size, that doesn't mean they are the same class.

I never claimed they would be the same class.

Furthermore the FACT is without any actual information anything and everything about any of these ships (everything except the Tristar and Tokugawa) is at best conjecture and speculation beyond their possible sizes which even then can only based on screen captures and no hard data.

It makes sense to have different sized ships for varying purposes but without any other data it's quite difficult to factually state what they are, what they can do, what the armament is, how many mecha they carry so on and so forth.

[Sgt Anjay]

and even if two ships are of the same approximate size, that doesn't mean they are the same class.

I never claimed they would be the same class.

Furthermore the FACT is without any actual information anything and everything about any of these ships (everything except the Tristar and Tokugawa) is at best conjecture and speculation beyond their possible sizes which even then can only based on screen captures and no hard data.

It makes sense to have different sized ships for varying purposes but without any other data it's quite difficult to factually state what they are, what they can do, what the armament is, how many mecha they carry so on and so forth.

I don't recall ever giving those ships stats, or saying that official stats, for whatever they might be worth, exist. I just pointed out the fact that they do indeed visibly exist.

[rtsurfer]

Southern Cross seems to by far have the least amount of OSM to reference. Its almost like someone had most of their production materials destroyed once the series was prematurely canceled.
Some things are speculation or best estimates, but then again you have people who have examined the animation closely and noted a variety of details that aren't necessarily covered by the OSM or in some cases is wrong in the OSM. For example, the differences in the engine blocks. The real question should be what data and descriptions can be supported by the animation or OSM as opposed to what someone pulled out of their arse.

The thing about current canon is you would have to talk to the uRRG to find out how they came up with the data and descriptions they submitted to rt.com back in 99. Talk to Tom to find out why he trimmed some of the uRRG's submitted data and descriptions, and why certain mecha and vessels weren't included in the infopedia when it went online in 00. Then talk to Tommy concerning any changes that have been made in the last ten years.

[ESalter]

The carelessness of the first edition books is more than minor, and cannot be blamed on HG. I own a pair of them, and can provide as many examples as you need.

No offense dude, but it's your word against the author's... and in this case I do think that the author is probably going to be more qualified to speak of the causes for the errors and other strange things in the 1st Edition books.

The author of an RPG based on an existing setting has the responsibility of making sure any newly invented details make sense, same as if the setting was completely original.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] MANY of the ship variations we may see for the different ship classes are MOSTLY fan suppositions because there's no official material that support that were more than a existing Tri-Star class cruiser and after that the construction of the Tokugawa class ships for the REF fleet. [...]

IMO, one of the most unfortunate aspects of the current state of affairs in Robotech's fandom is that having spent so long with minimal official information about the show, there's rather a lot of pushback from the older fans whenever Harmony Gold tries to sort things out and establish an official line on what's what in Robotech.

So, dialogue means nothing then, right?

Being that it's you, I shouldn't even have to say this... but dialogue in Robotech is a fickle beast even at the best of times. Just look at the Masters FTL drive thread to see a fantastic example of how a couple lines of errant technobabble can be interpreted a dozen different ways, all equally baseless. It's no secret that the dialogue of the series is often completely at odds with what's actually happening on screen.

If you want to apply that to mecha, and to the Masters Saga dialogue in particular, I can refute that in two words: "Syphid Veritech".

Southern Cross seems to by far have the least amount of OSM to reference. Its almost like someone had most of their production materials destroyed once the series was prematurely canceled.

To be honest, the sheer level of visual inconsistency in Southern Cross has me thinking that it's far more likely that the mechanical designers just never sat down to work out detail for their designs before the show went to air. Stuff like the changing size of Zor ships, that cannon/laser/missile thing on the Spartas, etc. seems to argue pretty strongly in favor of a lack of forethought rather than the deliberate destruction of production materials after they canceled the series. Having had a chance to examine This is Animation 10 in some detail, I almost feel like they were embarrassed by the lack of production material and tried to cover it up by filling the book with extraneous garbage of little relevance.

The thing about current canon is you would have to talk to the uRRG to find out how they came up with the data and descriptions they submitted to rt.com back in 99. Talk to Tom to find out why he trimmed some of the uRRG's submitted data and descriptions, and why certain mecha and vessels weren't included in the infopedia when it went online in 00. Then talk to Tommy concerning any changes that have been made in the last ten years.

It's no mystery how the uRRG's authors came up with the data and descriptions they used in the Infopedia... most of it is drawn from OSM sources, with the notable exception being the lack of useful information pertaining to Southern Cross. The uRRG's writers are rather open about having essentially made up all of the numbers for the Masters Saga section on their own with no basis in the OSM... particularly since the ships in question weren't even covered in the OSM.

The author of an RPG based on an existing setting has the responsibility of making sure any newly invented details make sense, same as if the setting was completely original.

The authors of the RPG did they best they could with the materials they had, the woefully inadequate materials supplied by Harmony Gold, home video recordings of the series, and a handful of Japanese art books they could lay hands on at the time.

[jaymz]

The author of an RPG based on an existing setting has the responsibility of making sure any newly invented details make sense, same as if the setting was completely original.

The authors of the RPG did they best they could with the materials they had, the woefully inadequate materials supplied by Harmony Gold, home video recordings of the series, and a handful of Japanese art books they could lay hands on at the time.

They do explain what little info they had to go on in the first edition. Called Japanimation side notes

Robotech the RPG (essentially the macross saga with the main rules of the game) Page 102 to 104 (2 pages approximately)

Book 3 The Zentraedi Page 28 (about a 1/4 page )

Book 4 Southern Cross Page 112 (not quite half a page)

Robotech II The Sentinels REF Field Guide page 131-133 (just over 2 full pages of notes for Mospeada and not Sentinels)

Back in the late 80's there was almost no real source material to work with but in subsequent years much of the osm was released as well as much more in depth material produced post facto.

Also the previous license PB had they did not have to go to HG with everything they wanted to do. I present to you Striek Force and Return of the Master as two books that would support this along with the other 2 books they produced that were not based on anything HG has done either.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Being that it's you, I shouldn't even have to say this... but dialogue in Robotech is a fickle beast even at the best of times. Just look at the Masters FTL drive thread to see a fantastic example of how a couple lines of errant technobabble can be interpreted a dozen different ways, all equally baseless. It's no secret that the dialogue of the series is often completely at odds with what's actually happening on screen.

If you want to apply that to mecha, and to the Masters Saga dialogue in particular, I can refute that in two words: "Syphid Veritech".

This entire argument is pointless. Believe whatever in the hell it is you want. I could care less at this point.

[Tiree]

*shrug* The only sticking point I see in that idea is that "a sample of my work" would, in my case, mean a sample of my research work, since they don't have the license to publish the Macross II game anymore and my annotations and corrections to the Macross II: Lovers Again RPG are kind of extensive. Other than that, yeah... I guess I can ring 'em up and talk to them about it on Monday between meetings. After all, the worst they can do is say yes and condemn me to a couple weeks of being pestered by the impatient audience.

I am looking forward to a recap of your conversation, as much as can be done for PB's sake. You may just want to do a sample of what you do want to work on here, not for Macross II. Because you want it a sample, to show a small section of your work in all area's. Stats, fluff, and what not.

Good Luck

[jaymz]

*shrug* The only sticking point I see in that idea is that "a sample of my work" would, in my case, mean a sample of my research work, since they don't have the license to publish the Macross II game anymore and my annotations and corrections to the Macross II: Lovers Again RPG are kind of extensive. Other than that, yeah... I guess I can ring 'em up and talk to them about it on Monday between meetings. After all, the worst they can do is say yes and condemn me to a couple weeks of being pestered by the impatient audience.

I am looking forward to a recap of your conversation, as much as can be done for PB's sake. You may just want to do a sample of what you do want to work on here, not for Macross II. Because you want it a sample, to show a small section of your work in all area's. Stats, fluff, and what not.

Good Luck

Believe me when I say this Tiree....as soon as Tommy Yune gets wind of Seto being involved that will end that right quick.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am looking forward to a recap of your conversation, as much as can be done for PB's sake. You may just want to do a sample of what you do want to work on here, not for Macross II. Because you want it a sample, to show a small section of your work in all area's. Stats, fluff, and what not.

Yeah, I probably should throw something together before Monday rolls around, just to give an example of how I would put the spaceships book together... though, given the chance, I'd probably want to finish it in a form as close to what Mr. Marker originally intended for it.

Believe me when I say this Tiree....as soon as Tommy Yune gets wind of Seto being involved that will end that right quick.

No kidding... I don't think he ever quite got over me verbally tearing Shadow Chronicles several new orifices of indeterminate purpose and pointing out some of the more unfortunate implications of Harmony Gold's limited rights to the original Macross series. I know that he never really had any qualms about mining my posts for stuff to add to the Infopedia, so I guess there's maybe a small chance he won't completely flip his lid if he finds out that I was attached to a Robotech project as a writer.

At the very least, I'm a strict supporter of the post-reboot "new canon", so it's not like they would have to worry about me including nonsense from the novels or the old comics just for yuks.

Maybe we must open a topic with the possibility to vote for the spaceships compendium convenience to be published in a shorter time before the RLAM project is released,because if HG is waiting to see fulfilled that project we are goin' to be bald before arose new "official" Robotech material.

Okay, I admire your optimism here... but things being what they are, appealing to have that book come out before the Robotech live-action movie is the same thing as asking them to finish it so long as they get it done before the apocalypse. If you want a more immediate deadline, maybe before the pointless Lancer-centric side-story comes out?

Also for the Next Gen. book we may demmand a "contellation guide" to locate all the planets involved in the Robotech official timeline(and again the fans do HG's work,hum )

Eh... not counting our solar system, there's only eight planets involved in the official Robotech timeline, Tirol, Optera, and the homeworlds of the Sentinels aliens. As much as I'd love to sweep Sentinels under the rug and bury it for all time, the Sentinels council is still very much canon, so I wonder if they'll roll that into the New Generation book, since the time period where that organization is formed overlaps the New Generation.

[rtsurfer]

SK, I'm just curious, how would you handle starship book entries with very limited or in some cases virtually no source material like the second-generation vessels we've been discussing or maybe Zor' Battlefortress (pre-Macross Saga)?
Would you include relevant none original tv series vessels like the Sentinels SDF-3 or the refit Tokugawa?
What would you do with information that is in the original tv series but its meaning is strongly disputed by fans, for example the "impulse power" used by the Masters' cityships?

[rtsurfer]

Also for the Next Gen. book we may demmand a "contellation guide" to locate all the planets involved in the Robotech official timeline(and again the fans do HG's work,hum )

Eh... not counting our solar system, there's only eight planets involved in the official Robotech timeline, Tirol, Optera, and the homeworlds of the Sentinels aliens. As much as I'd love to sweep Sentinels under the rug and bury it for all time, the Sentinels council is still very much canon, so I wonder if they'll roll that into the New Generation book, since the time period where that organization is formed overlaps the New Generation.

I realize PttSC showed six Sentinel representatives but don't recall any specific reference to the number of Sentinel homeworlds, did I miss it? Also, there were two Invid homeworlds (Optera and ?), the planet the Zentraedi blew up, and the two unknown planets briefly shown during the Masters trip to Earth.
Why would they include the Sentinels council in a New Gen book other than to perhaps mention two of them built the new space vessels and contributed shadow tech?

[jaymz]

The two planets during the Masters trip could have been just planets of no use or relevance. Passed on the way. Also the Zentraedi did not blow up their homeworld hey defoliated it and that was Optera. The first homeworld as mentioned by the Regis (i think it was) was destroyed prior to the Master getting protoculture etc.

So we have Earth, Fantoma (with Tirol in orbit), Optera, Karbarra, Spheris, Peryton, Garudan and Haydon IV. That is 8 planets of relevance. Anything else would not be part of the Setninels campaign or anything else for that matter as they have no purpose.

The two the Master passed may have been just that, planets they passed with nothing ont hem. The 1st Invid homeworld is destroyed so irrelevant to Robotech as it existed long prior to Robotech not during. The only other world would be the one the Zentraedi destroy as an example to Lisa et al which is also irrelevant.

8 worlds of note to get information for and 4 that are essentially irrelevant but that would still only give 12 worlds all told.

[rtsurfer]

There's also the planet (and solar system) during Dana/Musica's Flower of Life vision, and the one Zor was seeding when he died.
I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Eh... not counting our solar system, there's only eight planets involved in the official Robotech timeline, Tirol, Optera, and the homeworlds of the Sentinels aliens.

You're forgetting the Earth-looking planet orbiting Delta Pavonis in Khyron's Revenge.

[jaymz]

There's also the planet (and solar system) during Dana/Musica's Flower of Life vision, and the one Zor was seeding when he died.
I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

Zor seeding a planet is not in the series. Only the novels and the comics.

[Seto Kaiba]

SK, I'm just curious, how would you handle starship book entries with very limited or in some cases virtually no source material like the second-generation vessels we've been discussing or maybe Zor' Battlefortress (pre-Macross Saga)?

Now that's a tricky proposition... some ships, like Zor's battlefortress, just can't be done as the lack of art and information puts it at a point where virtually all that can be said about it is that it exists. For others, the process becomes dusting off the remasters of the relevant footage and taking a lot of screen captures to decide whether a particular design comes up frequently and consistently enough to be covered by deduction alone, and whether we can classify it as a variation on a confirmed class of ship (in which case making stats for it ends up being easy) or a whole new class in its own right. As we've demonstrated already, that isn't exactly a decision-making process that always produces an obvious answer. Assuming Palladium could spare an artist to trace the suspects from cleaned-up screen captures, the potential to give them decent coverage is pretty good if they actually merit it.

Would you include relevant none original tv series vessels like the Sentinels SDF-3 or the refit Tokugawa?

Absolutely... assuming it's from a canon title. The two examples you cited both show up in Prelude, so I would definitely make sure they were covered. Other things, like that unused starship design from Sentinels... probably not.

What would you do with information that is in the original tv series but its meaning is strongly disputed by fans, for example the "impulse power" used by the Masters' cityships?

I looked at that question, and my first thought was "What else do you do when you're in a no-win scenario?". For contentious topics like that, there's NEVER going to be one answer that pleases everybody, so it's simply a matter of trying to find the most logical answer to match the events on screen and the dialogue. For that kind of thing, I would definitely be drawing on a group of reasonably knowledgeable fans and getting their takes on candidate interpretations of a particularly contentious topic before making a decision. It's a practice I've usually gotten excellent results from in the past. Failing that, make a judgment call on the matter and then annotate the hell out of it in the back of the book, and possibly offer alternate rules for whatever contentious topic in the same place.

I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

Eh... either way, in most cases the canon sources never really bother to establish where the worlds in question are located respective to Earth and each other, except for the occasional bout of "in another galaxy". For all practical purposes, you'd just be circling random stars on a drawing of the galaxy and calling it a day. Easy, but not necessarily all that useful in any meaningful context. Unfortunately, doing a detailed description of any of those worlds (save perhaps for Tirol and Optera) would be all but impossible, since they haven't been visited in an unambiguously canon title.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Is someone actually arguing that unless something is stated out by the official license holder that it doesn't exist?

Yes.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Is someone actually arguing that unless something is stated out by the official license holder that it doesn't exist?

I think thats how it works in Japaneses Anime... most of the Real info about a series is based on Manga and non-animated sources...

[ESalter]

The author of an RPG based on an existing setting has the responsibility of making sure any newly invented details make sense, same as if the setting was completely original.

The authors of the RPG did they best they could with the materials they had, the woefully inadequate materials supplied by Harmony Gold, home video recordings of the series, and a handful of Japanese art books they could lay hands on at the time.

Palladium did not do the best it could. It could have proofread its books; it chose not to. That failing cannot be put on Harmony Gold.

[rtsurfer]

There's also the planet (and solar system) during Dana/Musica's Flower of Life vision, and the one Zor was seeding when he died.
I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

Zor seeding a planet is not in the series. Only the novels and the comics.

Sure it was.

[ShadowLogan]

There's also the planet (and solar system) during Dana/Musica's Flower of Life vision, and the one Zor was seeding when he died.
I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

Zor seeding a planet is not in the series. Only the novels and the comics.

The planet is seen in Zor Prime's flashbacks concerning Zor's death, though it looks more like ASC uniforms are being worn (a hold over from the OSM, but could indicate how messed up his head really is). I don't have the quote handy but he does mention seeding a planet when the various 15th members and Musica confront Nova inside the Mounds (that is in the show).

[jaymz]

There's also the planet (and solar system) during Dana/Musica's Flower of Life vision, and the one Zor was seeding when he died.
I'm just listing worlds that were mentioned or shown, the unidentified planets could be ones already named and/or insignificant.

Zor seeding a planet is not in the series. Only the novels and the comics.

The planet is seen in Zor Prime's flashbacks concerning Zor's death, though it looks more like ASC uniforms are being worn (a hold over from the OSM, but could indicate how messed up his head really is). I don't have the quote handy but he does mention seeding a planet when the various 15th members and Musica confront Nova inside the Mounds (that is in the show).

Ah ok I was mixing that up with the opening scenes in the novels and comics.

Either way Anything on the varying planets would be stuff pulled out of their collective a$$e$ anyway.

[jaymz]

The author of an RPG based on an existing setting has the responsibility of making sure any newly invented details make sense, same as if the setting was completely original.

The authors of the RPG did they best they could with the materials they had, the woefully inadequate materials supplied by Harmony Gold, home video recordings of the series, and a handful of Japanese art books they could lay hands on at the time.

Palladium did not do the best it could. It could have proofread its books; it chose not to. That failing cannot be put on Harmony Gold.

Ok so you are saying, the fact PB was sorely lacking in any real source material (since at that time it did not exist) that it is completely their own fault for the errors that were made? Yes the failings of the first edition can be put on HG just as much as PB. Mind you the REAL failing is the lack of material they had available to either of them to make the RPG in the first place at that time.I posted exactley what notes they had on everything and if you actually compare the basic stats (which I have done) they largely got much of the basic info right. The only place they were really way off were the ASC battloid/RM Bioroid recognition, which based what little info they had, was understandable and the Beta in New Gen not having 3 gunpods built in for fighter mode, missing the tri arm guns and the top mounted sensor pod that became a missile launcher. Everything else they more or less had to speculate and go by what is seen on the animation. I don't consider the name changes to be all that drastic for when it was made and by and large they managed to do a decent job overall for what they had to work with.

Could they have corrected it in later print runs? Maybe but we don't know what the agreement was with HG. They may not have been able to do so.

Now in regards to the new edition of the game, yes they took liberties in some places (such as the Tomahawk having 2 crew members instead of 1) but the new edition is head and shoulders above the original now that they actually have decent support from HG and much more source material to work with. Basic info is pretty much precise, my distaste and disagreement with the game stats themselves notwithstanding (i just change the game specific material to what I think they should be in my games), and the fluff is fairly accurate now as well.

To say there is no blame to be laid on HG is just wrong. Even with the new edition their is plenty of blame to spread around. PB has some for not being able to keep their line writer in Jason Marker (for financial reasons) and for, as is typical, taking too long in getting manuscripts to publishing quality. HG has blame as it is they we have to wait on to approve anything PB does now where previously HG was not holding up production in such a manner. Not to mention they no longer will allow non canon material to be produced whereas previously we had entire books with adventures and new mecha as well as even a couple of articles in the Rifter.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is someone actually arguing that unless something is stated out by the official license holder that it doesn't exist?

Yes.

Actually, no... the simple fact that's being stated is that fanon isn't canon, no matter how badly you might want it to be. There's no shortage of inconsistencies to be had in the Robotech TV series, and twenty-plus years of stagnation has left many fans with nothing else to do but concoct increasingly convoluted theories to make every inconsistency out to be a significant and intentional product of Robotech's production process rather than just an artifact of a rushed production schedule and lack of time to proofread properly.

On a few occasions, the "Robotech team" at Harmony Gold has waded into the mire of fanon to retroactively make a particular goof part of the canon. Still, that's a rare move for them to make. It's only been done once in recent memory, with Robotech's version of the "Macross Saga's VF-1R" (the actual VF-1R in Macross being something completely different). Rabid's pet theory here already has three strikes against it from the very beginning... they weren't included in the production materials by the animators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, they were deliberately omitted from Robotech.com's Infopedia and other canon Robotech sources, and there are certainly plenty of people who would label the ships in questions variants of the Tristar-class instead of being a trio of other classes in their own right.

There's the abridged version of what's being said.

I think thats how it works in Japaneses Anime... most of the Real info about a series is based on Manga and non-animated sources...

No... that's actually kind of a distorted oversimplification of how it works in real anime. The practice has been imitated by Robotech as well, just on a much smaller scale thanks to its unique production problems over the last 25+ years.

Generally speaking, it's a fairly common practice for studios to produce animated adaptations of popular manga titles. In cases where the show is derived from a manga series, the manga is considered to be the "real" or "correct" version of the story, since ratings often require the producers to take liberties with the original story. Even then, there'll be more information on the characters and certain aspects of the story being printed in magazines and the creator's art books and whatnot. Adapting serialized novels into animation is also occasionally done, with the same general principles. Occasionally, the changes have nothing to do the show's story, and are just to excise a particular in-joke or reference on the part of the mangaka that might otherwise cause problems (like not showing the cargo hold of Sasami's ship in Tenchi Muyo!, since the comical clutter in there had a few things that obviously didn't belong to the setting... like a VF-1S Valkyrie from Macross and the GR1 from Giant Robo).

Mind you, there are also plenty of shows which started out being developed as anime and spun off manga titles and novelizations and whatnot. Both Gundam and Macross were originally developed as anime, and their great success allowed them to spin off manga and novels and games and whatnot. Typically, the first information fans will see about the series will appear as "teaser" articles in magazines before the show comes out, wherein the show's creative staff will talk a little about the setting and story, and maybe even show off some art of the characters or mecha. Then, of course, the show continues to get covered during its run, with magazine articles and other publications containing stuff like character bios, stats for the mecha, and more creator interviews that can give information about the setting and other parts of the show's "universe". Then, of course, later on you see the big art books like the This is Animation and Entertainment Bible series, which give lots of detail about the show's setting and characters and mecha and whatnot, and maybe bigger publications like a serialized official encyclopedia (like the "Chronicle" series) or some tech manuals (like the "Master File" and "Master Archive" series).

Being that these printed materials come directly from the show's creators and contain info pertaining to the series itself and its broader setting, they're treated as canon.

Really, the overwhelming majority of the information about Robotech's cast, ships, and mecha comes from these printed materials from the original Japanese shows. Robotech has even imitated this practice to a certain extent with Robotech Art 1 and the RTSC art book.

Either way Anything on the varying planets would be stuff pulled out of their collective a$$e$ anyway.

Exactly, the lack of information would mean that the writers would be making 99% of it up as they went.

[jaymz]

Also for the Next Gen. book we may demmand a "contellation guide" to locate all the planets involved in the Robotech official timeline(and again the fans do HG's work,hum )

Eh... not counting our solar system, there's only eight planets involved in the official Robotech timeline, Tirol, Optera, and the homeworlds of the Sentinels aliens. As much as I'd love to sweep Sentinels under the rug and bury it for all time, the Sentinels council is still very much canon, so I wonder if they'll roll that into the New Generation book, since the time period where that organization is formed overlaps the New Generation.

I realize PttSC showed six Sentinel representatives but don't recall any specific reference to the number of Sentinel homeworlds, did I miss it? Also, there were two Invid homeworlds (Optera and ?), the planet the Zentraedi blew up, and the two unknown planets briefly shown during the Masters trip to Earth.
Why would they include the Sentinels council in a New Gen book other than to perhaps mention two of them built the new space vessels and contributed shadow tech?

O.k. Seto and rtsurfer,I believe that the constellation guide is necessary to include INSIDE the Next Gen. saga because the UEEF journey into galaxy started before the Masters arrive on Earth and ends when the Third Reclamation fleet returns to Earth and free the planet from the Regess and this is the time period for the Next Gen. saga which ends when the seek for the SDF-3 starts,also if we've got all that data and planets with the distances between them we may plan our own trips and journeys for our campaigns and from where the races comes from,where was the Bodolza fleet prior the Rain of Death on Earth,where was captured the Robotech Factory Satellite,where was the Space Station Liberty,all the Sentinels races too,which direction takes(assumption)the Regess when she leaves the Earth,from where comes the Haydonites(calculate folding and de-folding)and to have some official data to plan our campaigns and games,of course all in color and in big format.

The problem is joseph, none of the info exists and will essentially be pulled out of someone's butt. Then you'll have all sorts of arguments over whether that info is "right" or "accurate"

[Sgt Anjay]

twenty-plus years of stagnation has left many fans with nothing else to do but concoct increasingly convoluted theories to make every inconsistency out to be a significant and intentional product of Robotech's production process rather than just an artifact of a rushed production schedule and lack of time to proofread properly.

Although, of course, it can't be denied that inconsistencies do exist due to things that were significant and intentionally inserted by Robotech's creators.

And another way to put all that is that the fans have been keeping the franchise alive for themselves by playing in the wonderfully open sandbox, aided by the novels, comics, and yes RPG, which themselves do the same thing and take tidbits from the episodes and flesh them out or take suppositions in new directions for the sake of plot, interest, or just fun. From that perspective, there are notable detrimental effects of closing the sandbox.

Rabid's pet theory

I'm rather certain Rabid isn't the only one to watch Southern Cross and see multiple types of ship. And more than just Rabid have demonstrated or advanced the visuals of those ships.

already has three strikes against it from the very beginning... they weren't included in the production materials by the animators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross

There's virtually nothing for many of the ships and equal amounts of absolutely nothing for several. Singling out these ships is a false dichotomy, and irrelevant besides since the visuals on them aren't anywhere near as ambiguous as you're trying to propose. In any case, the pet theory that it's all errors due to that lack of pre-production materials is beyond the pale of sense when contrasted with the visual evidence: it would require an animator to give significantly different features and size to ships they're drawing side-by-side on the same cell as a mistake, and then continue to give these same features out to different ships again and again, also as a mistake.

I've also yet to be shown a case of what is clearly the same ship switching the key features which distinguish the different ships, which would actually be evidence of those features being errors and not intentional. The Tristar always has its raised bridge structure and cruciform engines; there's no ship with a raised bridge structure but two side-by-side engines, or a ship with the flat-four engine configuration without a raised bridge structure as opposed to the hull conformal design of the smaller ship type. Southern Cross rather fails to be inconsistent in that regard despite that theory banking on it.

they were deliberately omitted from Robotech.com's Infopedia and other canon Robotech sources

For one, its already been pointed out that the other second generation Earth ships are mentioned in the Tristar entry on Robotech.com, though they aren't named. Secondly, there are several designs which incontrovertibly exist visually and yet have no statistical information in "canon" Robotech, for whatever that's worth and however long the current version lasts.

and there are certainly plenty of people who would label the ships in questions variants of the Tristar-class instead of being a trio of other classes in their own right.

Well, according to Robotech.com the distinguishing feature of the Tristar-class in contrast to "the other second-generation naval vessels" (direct quote from the site) is the cruciform engines; therefore, by canon, a second-generation ship which resembles the Tristar but does not bear the cruciform engines is not a Tristar. Screenshots from the show support this.

At any rate, invoking "plenty of people" wouldn't even be evidence by your own standards since "fanon isn't canon".

Either way Anything on the varying planets would be stuff pulled out of their collective a$$e$ anyway.

Exactly, the lack of information would mean that the writers would be making 99% of it up as they went.

Making it Robotech material written by an authorized professional for Robotech, as opposed to SDF:Macross material or SDC:Southern Cross material or GCMospeada material. What's wrong with that? Robotech information originating from within Robotech and solely for Robotech itself would neither be new nor inherently a bad thing.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Rabid's pet theory here already has three strikes against it from the very beginning... they weren't included in the production materials by the animators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross

I see. So you have the entire library of production materials for Southern Cross?

they were deliberately omitted from Robotech.com's Infopedia and other canon Robotech sources

Oh really?

Robotech.com Garfish entry:

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers

there are certainly plenty of people who would label the ships in questions variants of the Tristar-class instead of being a trio of other classes in their own right.

I want to meet this supposed 'plenty of people'. Burden of proof is yours....

[rtsurfer]

Rabid's pet theory here already has three strikes against it from the very beginning... they weren't included in the production materials by the animators of Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross

I see. So you have the entire library of production materials for Southern Cross?

IIRC, SK has one official Southern Cross publication in his personal reference library.

they were deliberately omitted from Robotech.com's Infopedia and other canon Robotech sources

Oh really?

Robotech.com Garfish entry:

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers

Its not so much they were deliberately omitted as they were left out or ignored. The two references to the missing vessel entries illustrates that they were intended to be included and simply never were. Back when rt.com launched they had a number of other files the uRRG had constructed for the official infopedia, TPTB kept promising to update the site with new entries which never happened well except for Tommy's entries to support his new continuity in the Wildstorm comics, Battlecry game, and related merchandising. In other words, they didn't really care what was left out of the infopedia.

SK, I would like to see a statement by someone representing HG that states they deliberately omitted the other second-generation (ASC) capital ships from rt.com's infopedia and other canon Robotech sources, I'm sure you have it to back up your claim.

[Seto Kaiba]

Although, of course, it can't be denied that inconsistencies do exist due to things that were significant and intentionally inserted by Robotech's creators.

Yes, but this doesn't appear to be one of them. If it was, then they probably would've done what they did with the other major ones and acknowledged it explicitly.

From that perspective, there are notable detrimental effects of closing the sandbox.

On the other hand, that same situation produces little else but squabbling fans who all want to push their own particular theories. There's no way to actually talk about the material of the series unless you have a common frame of reference to do so, which is part of why the canon is important.

In any case, the pet theory that it's all errors due to that lack of pre-production materials is beyond the pale of sense when contrasted with the visual evidence:

Given the quality of the production work involved, I have no trouble seeing that as possible: what with wildly changing starship sizes, weapons changing types between scenes, several clear cases of dialogue contradicting visuals, and an absurd host of other problems on which countless theories have been piled over the intervening decades. The visuals being what they are, I would quite cheerfully accept them as variants of the same class intended for different mission roles.

Robotech.com Garfish entry:

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers

You do realize that this doesn't actually prove anything, right? The names and material for the disputed designs are entirely fan-fiction, the canon Banshee-class destroyer could just as easily be something else entirely. If there is a spaceships book printed, I doubt the speculative designs you're banging on about will be covered, due at the very least to their complete absence from canon sources over the last 25 years or so. Mind you, if I did end up tasked with finishing the book, I'd give serious consideration to tracking down the mechanical designers and asking a couple questions directly.


All the same, this has little bearing on the New Generation book... particularly since none of these apparent Tristar-class variations appear after the Masters Saga.

[Sgt Anjay]

Although, of course, it can't be denied that inconsistencies do exist due to things that were significant and intentionally inserted by Robotech's creators.

Yes, but this doesn't appear to be one of them. If it was, then they probably would've done what they did with the other major ones and acknowledged it explicitly.

"This" and "it" aren't very specific, since I wasn't talking about any particular instance but in general about Robotech. IF you mean the ships, then my response there is that the dialog that refers to different types of ships to go along with footage that shows different types of ships equals out to there being intended to be different types of ships.

From that perspective, there are notable detrimental effects of closing the sandbox.

On the other hand, that same situation produces little else but squabbling fans who all want to push their own particular theories. There's no way to actually talk about the material of the series unless you have a common frame of reference to do so, which is part of why the canon is important.

Canon is important because the fans aren't acting like they "should" act? Canon is important because people can't toe the line? An open sandbox has problems, I won't dispute it. But as I pointed out, so does a closed sandbox; I don't doubt those problems are why the very concept of layers of canon/pseudo-canon or "expanded universe" or whatever exist. A good story is a good story, a good idea is a good idea, and sometimes canon just gets in the way.

In any case, the pet theory that it's all errors due to that lack of pre-production materials is beyond the pale of sense when contrasted with the visual evidence:

Given the quality of the production work involved, I have no trouble seeing that as possible: what with wildly changing starship sizes, weapons changing types between scenes, several clear cases of dialogue contradicting visuals, and an absurd host of other problems on which countless theories have been piled over the intervening decades. The visuals being what they are, I would quite cheerfully accept them as variants of the same class intended for different mission roles.

Alot of claims here, but no evidence showing that the starships were mistakes or accidents, just your opinion based on the fact that because Southern Cross is low quality, it must be a mistake. But this isn't some general case. There are specific scenes that have been brought forth showing the different ships, ones I've yet to see a direct refutation of. We're not talking about the dark-blue-blur-on-black-space scenes, we're not talking about background blobs, we're not talking about screen-filler ships. We're talking about two static objects on the same animation cell drawn side-by-side as the focus of the scene. We're talking about clear, contrasted, brightly lit pan shots showing demonstrably different features which repeatedly reappear in later scenes; if they were mistakes, then they wouldn't have reappeared, because they weren't intended to exist in the first place. Instead, there would be a plethora of different features as each scene gave birth to a new set of mistakes. A couple of those types of mistake do exist here and there, which only serve to highlight how these distinguishing features we're talking about are different from that phenomena. Instead, there is a rather consistent appearance of two defining characteristics for which ship is which: raised bridge or not, and engine configuration (cruciform, flat-4, or side-by-side).

Robotech.com Garfish entry:

The standard light starship of the later Expeditionary Force is the Garfish light cruiser. Almost identical in length to the earlier Banshee class destroyers

You do realize that this doesn't actually prove anything, right? The names and material for the disputed designs are entirely fan-fiction, the canon Banshee-class destroyer could just as easily be something else entirely.

And let me guess, its sheer coincidence that the name decided upon by the main contributors of the stats should show up in a relevant location? Despite the fact that there's another entry (for the Tristar, natch) which also mentions that more ships of different classes exist which resemble the Tristar and whose distinguishing characteristics is one of the ones we're also pointing out (the engines)?

If there is a spaceships book printed, I doubt the speculative designs you're banging on about will be covered, due at the very least to their complete absence from canon sources over the last 25 years or so.

Nothing is more canon than the episodes that I'm aware of, in which the ships are seen and can be consistently identified by consistently reoccuring physical features, and in which dialog refers to different types of ships.

Every secondary "canon" source over the last 25 years has had a plethora of missing ships, including ones from Macross Saga and New Generation. I think they've finally gotten New Generation squared away, and the Oberth has finally been put to rest, but Mr. Zentraedi Monitor remains MIA. Again, the SC ships are hardly alone in their status among Robotech ships, let alone among clearly visible Robotech items without stats of any kind.

[jaymz]

Someone point out that the ultimate canon source is the anime itself.... some executive somewhere doesn't have to give the OK to put it in a book to make it "real" canon.

And even then the anime causes a whole host of issues within itself.

[Tiree]

Yes, Robotech the Anime is not inherently consistent... sadly!

[Seto Kaiba]

Canon is important because the fans aren't acting like they "should" act? Canon is important because people can't toe the line? An open sandbox has problems, I won't dispute it. But as I pointed out, so does a closed sandbox; I don't doubt those problems are why the very concept of layers of canon/pseudo-canon or "expanded universe" or whatever exist. A good story is a good story, a good idea is a good idea, and sometimes canon just gets in the way.

Believe me, I agree with the sentiments about the necessity of having "expanded universe" levels of canonicity, especially in a franchise as cluttered and lacking creative direction as Robotech's. I've already explained why canon is important to the consistency of the story and for providing a common frame of reference for discussion, so I don't really wanna recap that. As I'll explain, there's a problem with this line of reasoning too... and it's kinda nightmarish when you get right down to it.

Every secondary "canon" source over the last 25 years has had a plethora of missing ships, including ones from Macross Saga and New Generation.

I hope you'll forgive me for temporarily skipping the middle of your post here, but this is an almost ideal setup to make a very important point.

Robotech has always had serious problems with internal consistency. All of us know this. It's just the way things have always been for Robotech, though they tried to fix it by rebooting Robotech's continuity in '01-'02. The biggest problem in drawing on the pre-reboot materials is that the franchise's creative director can't seem to make up his mind whether or not Robotech even has an expanded universe.

On the one hand, we've got the vague and nebulous definition of continuity provided on the robotech.com website. It's a policy that basically boils down to "anything goes, so long as you don't contradict the series", and it poses massive problems in and of itself because the overabundance of vague and inconsistent material in the series proper means that deciding whether or not a factoid from source X contradicts the show is almost entirely down to the individual's interpretation. Of course, this makes detailed discussion or debate of any major aspect of the series problematic in the extreme, since they generally devolve into energetic arguments over the validity of a particular source or interpretation thereof... as we saw an amusingly graphic example of just recently. The other problem with the expanded universe idea is that a great many of the "secondary" canon publications and whatnot are thoroughly inconsistent with each other (and occasionally with themselves), which leads to some kind of geometric expansion of "What the hell!".

On the other hand, the "powers that be" ascribe a much narrower and rigid definition of the continuity to Robotech in interviews and panel discussions. In that case, the concept of an "expanded universe" would seem to be ruled out entirely by statements that the older comics, novels, and what have you were disowned from the Robotech continuity since Harmony Gold didn't exercise much (if any) creative control over them. This stance puts all Robotech titles into two categories with no real middle ground... the "original 85" and the materials produced after 2001 are the "new" canon, and everything produced before that is non-canon. It's a little on the draconian side, and it's virtually guaranteed to cause a lot of griping from the older fans, but it does an admirable job of cleaning up the continuity and providing a common framework for discussion of the series.

Someone point out that the ultimate canon source is the anime itself.... some executive somewhere doesn't have to give the OK to put it in a book to make it "real" canon.

As jaymz and Tiree already pointed out, the "ultimate canon source" is nothing like consistent in the first place... which is why the creative director(s) has had to weigh in various issues in the canon. It's positively shot through with inconsistencies, errors, and all kinds of vague statements... this fact should be particularly sharp in your mind after all the fuss in the "Masters faster-than-light drive" thread.

The creative director decides what's canon, because he's the one in charge of telling the story and making sure that new installments line up with what's come before as much as possible.

Japanese animators were enough smart at a time when they release the Macross Chronicle magazines,were they established the basis for the canon about the Macross artwork,technical data and character profiles.Maybe HG one day would do that.

Eh... you're kind of giving a wrong impression here when you talk about the role Macross Chronicle fills. It didn't establish the canon, it was just the latest in a LONG series of canon reference materials stretching all the way back to the original Macross series in the early 80's. Much of Macross Chronicle is just a condensation of the absolutely MASSIVE body of canon material that was already out there, though it did also include a lot of new information as well.

To be honest, I doubt Harmony Gold could pull off a similar publication for Robotech. It would mean a LOT more work for them, since they just don't have the huge volume of highly detailed canon material to base it on. They'd have to make it all up as they went, and what would be the point when the decades-long lack of canon resources left so many of the older Robotech fans unwilling to accept any kind of official position on canon anyway.

[rtsurfer]

Do you think most people really care about the details that we argue over and what is or isn't official canon?
Don't they just want a useful and enjoyable product that allows them to suspend disbelief?

[jaymz]

Do you think most people really care about the details that we argue over and what is or isn't official canon?
Don't they just want a useful and enjoyable product that allows them to suspend disbelief?

For that you still need a relatively coherent base to start from and the powers that be have essentially not done the best they can in giving us that

[Sgt Anjay]

Canon is important because the fans aren't acting like they "should" act? Canon is important because people can't toe the line? An open sandbox has problems, I won't dispute it. But as I pointed out, so does a closed sandbox; I don't doubt those problems are why the very concept of layers of canon/pseudo-canon or "expanded universe" or whatever exist. A good story is a good story, a good idea is a good idea, and sometimes canon just gets in the way.

Believe me, I agree with the sentiments about the necessity of having "expanded universe" levels of canonicity, especially in a franchise as cluttered and lacking creative direction as Robotech's. I've already explained why canon is important to the consistency of the story and for providing a common frame of reference for discussion, so I don't really wanna recap that. As I'll explain, there's a problem with this line of reasoning too... and it's kinda nightmarish when you get right down to it.

Well, for one, the need for there to be "the" story, instead of stories told in a really interesting setting is neither universal nor absolute. And I've been able to discuss Robotech for decades now; sometimes it gets ugly, usually it gets passionate (not necessarily a bad thing), and many times the different bases, which factoids and tidbits and clues came from which point in which story, is the coolest part of the whole thing.

Every secondary "canon" source over the last 25 years has had a plethora of missing ships, including ones from Macross Saga and New Generation.

I hope you'll forgive me for temporarily skipping the middle of your post here, but this is an almost ideal setup to make a very important point.

Robotech has always had serious problems with internal consistency. All of us know this. It's just the way things have always been for Robotech, though they tried to fix it by rebooting Robotech's continuity in '01-'02. The biggest problem in drawing on the pre-reboot materials is that the franchise's creative director can't seem to make up his mind whether or not Robotech even has an expanded universe.

On the one hand, we've got the vague and nebulous definition of continuity provided on the robotech.com website. It's a policy that basically boils down to "anything goes, so long as you don't contradict the series", and it poses massive problems in and of itself because the overabundance of vague and inconsistent material in the series proper means that deciding whether or not a factoid from source X contradicts the show is almost entirely down to the individual's interpretation. Of course, this makes detailed discussion or debate of any major aspect of the series problematic in the extreme, since they generally devolve into energetic arguments over the validity of a particular source or interpretation thereof... as we saw an amusingly graphic example of just recently. The other problem with the expanded universe idea is that a great many of the "secondary" canon publications and whatnot are thoroughly inconsistent with each other (and occasionally with themselves), which leads to some kind of geometric expansion of "What the hell!".

Really? I'm not surprised you see what went on in that thread as a bad thing. I don't. The only thing that bothered me is my point of view dismissed when its validity is based on as much as any other; the inability to be indisputably right doesn't bother me, being dictated to does. How, exactly, does corporate fiat help that, exactly?

But that thread did let me see alternates I hadn't before, it let me get a better grip on what the characters actually say, what is solid or the work of the ever-dubious narrator. I'm currently noodling here and there a new version of my viewpoint on the matter thanks to things brought up by fans I completely disagree with. I'll post on it eventually, in that very same "amusingly graphic" thread with "energetic arguments". And best of all, it was a damn good excuse to watch something I enjoy all over again. How would corporate fiat help that? Instead, we can amuse ourselves the way RPG fans, and especially Palladium RPG fans, do: come up with cool stuff for the setting we enjoy using a cartoon we like and a bunch of sweet toys authors have added over the years. Like in this thread.

As to Secondary Continuity and their consistencies, if you need a Grand Unified Theory of Everything to be some sort of perfect construct...and more correct than everybody else's...I can see how thats a problem. But Robotech is wonky, and I'm not sure that considering its origins it could've quite ended up any other way. Its entirely possible to just take each product for what it's worth, however much or little that might be, and not try to force some retcon-hammered "The" story. Frankly, I'd say its the attitude that "my Robotech is better than your Robotech" that causes problems between fans more than inconsistensies, and the Grand Master Plan of Corporate Fiat Product doesn't help that at all.

On the other hand, the "powers that be" ascribe a much narrower and rigid definition of the continuity to Robotech in interviews and panel discussions. In that case, the concept of an "expanded universe" would seem to be ruled out entirely by statements that the older comics, novels, and what have you were disowned from the Robotech continuity since Harmony Gold didn't exercise much (if any) creative control over them. This stance puts all Robotech titles into two categories with no real middle ground... the "original 85" and the materials produced after 2001 are the "new" canon, and everything produced before that is non-canon. It's a little on the draconian side, and it's virtually guaranteed to cause a lot of griping from the older fans, but it does an admirable job of cleaning up the continuity and providing a common framework for discussion of the series.

Totally 100% agree they need to know what they're actually taking into account in order to make new product, what happened and what didn't, and that this can be used as a common base.

100% disagree there must only be one, draconian version of Robotech that disavows everything else because t it cannot be enjoyed as a version of Robotech without ruining everything always foreverz!!!.

Someone point out that the ultimate canon source is the anime itself.... some executive somewhere doesn't have to give the OK to put it in a book to make it "real" canon.

As jaymz and Tiree already pointed out, the "ultimate canon source" is nothing like consistent in the first place... which is why the creative director(s) has had to weigh in various issues in the canon. It's positively shot through with inconsistencies, errors, and all kinds of vague statements... this fact should be particularly sharp in your mind after all the fuss in the "Masters faster-than-light drive" thread.

The creative director decides what's canon, because he's the one in charge of telling the story and making sure that new installments line up with what's come before as much as possible.

Yeah, an author needs to know what the basis of their story is, but plenty of Robotech stories were told without there being "One Ring to Rule Them All" canon. To include Shadow Chronicles, frankly; very, very few inconsistencies of any kind have been ironed out under the current regime, despite your trying to posit them as impossible.

Japanese animators were enough smart at a time when they release the Macross Chronicle magazines,were they established the basis for the canon about the Macross artwork,technical data and character profiles.Maybe HG one day would do that.

Eh... you're kind of giving a wrong impression here when you talk about the role Macross Chronicle fills. It didn't establish the canon, it was just the latest in a LONG series of canon reference materials stretching all the way back to the original Macross series in the early 80's. Much of Macross Chronicle is just a condensation of the absolutely MASSIVE body of canon material that was already out there, though it did also include a lot of new information as well.

To be honest, I doubt Harmony Gold could pull off a similar publication for Robotech. It would mean a LOT more work for them, since they just don't have the huge volume of highly detailed canon material to base it on. They'd have to make it all up as they went, and what would be the point when the decades-long lack of canon resources left so many of the older Robotech fans unwilling to accept any kind of official position on canon anyway.

The retcon-hammer's never popular. The efficacy of top-down "this is how the story should be" coming after the fact is pretty controversial...just ask a Legion of Super-Heroes fan, or Spider-man fans, just to start with.



Also...I still see three identifiable ships in during Southern Cross.