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Jabborwacky wrote:

You must have missed the part about the ship being airborne and quite a great many miles above the ground (70000 feet in fact). Detonation of nukes at that altitude would effect the atmosphere for many many miles and cause radio-active fall out, as well as sending EMP that would destroy most electronics in all directions. Not to mention the ship's carcass would fall down and finish off whatever city it is hovering over and had been blowing up systematically (like, say, Chi-town).

The CS might be bastards, but they are not stupid. They are trying to preserve humanity and encourage the use of technology over magic. Destroying almost all technological devices for hundreds of miles and giving survivors radiation poisoning is not something they would do. Plus, people would then have to depend on magic to survive. Such an attack would only create a situation favorable to their supposed enemies.

As such, the CS military would be focused on protecting and evacuating survivors, many of them dieing quite admirably while doing so. And before you mention the K-sats, the ship is well below the range that the K-sats would react to.

Lenwen wrote:

Jabborwacky wrote:

You must have missed the part about the ship being airborne and quite a great many miles above the ground (70000 feet in fact). Detonation of nukes at that altitude would effect the atmosphere for many many miles and cause radio-active fall out, as well as sending EMP that would destroy most electronics in all directions. Not to mention the ship's carcass would fall down and finish off whatever city it is hovering over and had been blowing up systematically (like, say, Chi-town).

The CS might be bastards, but they are not stupid. They are trying to preserve humanity and encourage the use of technology over magic. Destroying almost all technological devices for hundreds of miles and giving survivors radiation poisoning is not something they would do. Plus, people would then have to depend on magic to survive. Such an attack would only create a situation favorable to their supposed enemies.

As such, the CS military would be focused on protecting and evacuating survivors, many of them dieing quite admirably while doing so. And before you mention the K-sats, the ship is well below the range that the K-sats would react to.

In your scenario you would park the ship directly over the Chi-Town fortress city .. at roughly 70,000 ft ?

Zer0 Kay wrote:A ship that large at 70,000 feet... I wonder what the orbital community thinks about that?

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Jabborwacky wrote:

Steeler49er wrote:BINGO AND PERFECTLY SAID JABBORWACKY
YEAH... WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Although I don't agree that the impact from falling 100,000 ft up would be anywhere the World wide level of devistation that is assumed to have killed the dino's, i DO agree with Absolutely everything else.

Jabborwacky has hit this nail Smack on the head. If SNoW nukes go off ((The Real ones used to Wipe states, were described in one of the books as being in the millions of MDC range-forgot page NO#)) and would send an EMP that Would most [non-hardend] electronics for a hundered miles, plus it would cause a mini-nuke winter, Plus it would send high winds all over and Vape dozens of miles and Devistate a hundered miles with easy...

Tactical-Nukes on the Other hand would do Crap for damage (D6x100+/-) and would At Best do some heavy scuff damage to the ships hull while reducing their force feilds by very little (Every Large high tech ship, which is all of them, in Phase world has an average of 10,000MDC worth of variable force feilds) damage all and all.

PLUS, Neither the Repo-bots Nor the CS would want this fight.
The CS psychics that can see the future would get a Horrid vision a week or more prior that a horrible fate would bestow the innitiator of a fight with the "Falling Naruni star".
The CS would use Psychics and check out the ship... then let them.

War is costly, and Yes the CS Would use Nukes when all else failed, and those nukes Would likely destroy the ship if enough hit. If those nukes were State killer (SNoW Nukes) then heck yah the ship would get blasted from the thing even if it 'pre-detonated' at even a few mile out. The second SNoW coming in out of the newly made Blind spot would finish whatever the first one didn't...
But that would fragg ½ the US in nuke winter, Blind millions look up, and fragg ½ the tech in the old US And it would(as the CS fears) T-off many nations who remember what Started the caticlysm off, Including the Splooies.
And the CS would rather let this whole thing Go away. Yes the two forces may skirmmish but, in the end the two would hold back and the NE star ship would Just leave earth in a few hours after crashing.


Arguement in favor

I'm glad you agree with me. However, I still disagree on the whole nuke part. They would recognize the fact that launching nukes is the equivalent of committing suicide, and possibly the genocide of the human race in North America. Firing nukes off would only set humanity back while giving alien forces a further advantage. It would violate the Coalition State's idiology and morals to launch nukes to take down the enemy ship. They would not screw over all of humanity on the North American continent by using such an attack. Most likely they would be focused on saving/evacuating their populace and fighting defensively.

Huh? Nuking one area is not going to set all of humanity in north america back. Not even close?

You must have missed the part about the ship being airborne and quite a great many miles above the ground (70000 feet in fact). Detonation of nukes at that altitude would effect the atmosphere for many many miles and cause radio-active fall out, as well as sending EMP that would destroy most electronics in all directions. Not to mention the ship's carcass would fall down and finish off whatever city it is hovering over and had been blowing up systematically (like, say, Chi-town).

The CS might be bastards, but they are not stupid. They are trying to preserve humanity and encourage the use of technology over magic. Destroying almost all technological devices for hundreds of miles and giving survivors radiation poisoning is not something they would do. Plus, people would then have to depend on magic to survive. Such an attack would only create a situation favorable to their supposed enemies.

As such, the CS military would be focused on protecting and evacuating survivors, many of them dieing quite admirably while doing so. And before you mention the K-sats, the ship is well below the range that the K-sats would react to.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If it's hovering that high in the air for Nukes to give that kind of fallout, then the CS dosn't have to worry because the Killsats will wreak that thing so hard the debree would be vaporized.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Furthermore, if it's hovering over Chi-Town, it's already dead because 3 million missle barrtiers will be blasting it to bits with 3 million seperate vollies to deal with. They don't NEED nuclear at that point.

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:A ship that large at 70,000 feet... I wonder what the orbital community thinks about that?

Nice target?


Daniel Stoker

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If it's hovering that high in the air for Nukes to give that kind of fallout, then the CS dosn't have to worry because the Killsats will wreak that thing so hard the debree would be vaporized.

This is not right .. Sorry Nekira .. but the Kill sats only have a range of a couple miles for their most powerful weapon systems .. other then missiles. And if they all at the same time launched missiles at the ship that is well below their attack ceiling .. (which is something like a couple hundred miles up) they still would not be able to effectively assault the ship ..

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Furthermore, if it's hovering over Chi-Town, it's already dead because 3 million missle barrtiers will be blasting it to bits with 3 million seperate vollies to deal with. They don't NEED nuclear at that point.

Where did you get the above quote number's from ?

dragonfett wrote:You know, I just thought of something, if it was really that easy to knockout Rifts Earth military electronic systems, don't you think that Tolkeen would detonated a few nukes high in the atmosphere when CS forces were right outside the city. By Killer Cyborg's math, each missile would have a 25% chance to do so, so either roll of the individual parts, say that 25% the forces are knocked out, or roll once for each missile for all units. Either way, it would take relatively few missiles to take out a lot of CS power armors, robot vehicles, and other weapons of war. And since Tolkeen relies more on magic, their fighting capabilities would be diminished far, far less than that of the Coalition.

And since according to Killer Cyborg, other people can not shoot down missiles that are not aimed at them (and since these missiles are not aimed at anyone but rather targeting the sky), there ain't Jack Spit that the CS can do about it!

Jabborwacky wrote:You must have missed the part about the ship being airborne and quite a great many miles above the ground (70000 feet in fact). Detonation of nukes at that altitude would effect the atmosphere for many many miles and cause radio-active fall out, as well as sending EMP that would destroy most electronics in all directions. Not to mention the ship's carcass would fall down and finish off whatever city it is hovering over and had been blowing up systematically (like, say, Chi-town).

The CS might be bastards, but they are not stupid.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If it's hovering that high in the air for Nukes to give that kind of fallout, then the CS dosn't have to worry because the Killsats will wreak that thing so hard the debree would be vaporized.

This is not right .. Sorry Nekira .. but the Kill sats only have a range of a couple miles for their most powerful weapon systems .. other then missiles. And if they all at the same time launched missiles at the ship that is well below their attack ceiling .. (which is something like a couple hundred miles up) they still would not be able to effectively assault the ship ..

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Furthermore, if it's hovering over Chi-Town, it's already dead because 3 million missle barrtiers will be blasting it to bits with 3 million seperate vollies to deal with. They don't NEED nuclear at that point.

Where did you get the above quote number's from ?

No listed stats. Where do you get that they don't? It's how i'd design a mile-high fortress city. Sorry, a fortress city of that size should be able to swat a battleship foolish enough to hover over it so fast they don't even have time to say "SHEILD'S ARE DOWN, CAPTIAN"

Sorry...as nice as it is, it's still just one ship. one ship should never be able to take down an entire fortress because the fortress can inherently hold more men, more missles, and more cannons than the ship does. Many, many, many times more.

This isn't just the CS. In my games, every major power is decked out like this, to an extent. Chi-Town more than most because it's a fortress city, but honestly, any major city on rifts earth should swat a commodity class down like a friggin fly.

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:If it's hovering that high in the air for Nukes to give that kind of fallout, then the CS dosn't have to worry because the Killsats will wreak that thing so hard the debree would be vaporized.

This is not right .. Sorry Nekira .. but the Kill sats only have a range of a couple miles for their most powerful weapon systems .. other then missiles. And if they all at the same time launched missiles at the ship that is well below their attack ceiling .. (which is something like a couple hundred miles up) they still would not be able to effectively assault the ship ..

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Furthermore, if it's hovering over Chi-Town, it's already dead because 3 million missle barrtiers will be blasting it to bits with 3 million seperate vollies to deal with. They don't NEED nuclear at that point.

Where did you get the above quote number's from ?

No listed stats. Where do you get that they don't? It's how i'd design a mile-high fortress city. Sorry, a fortress city of that size should be able to swat a battleship foolish enough to hover over it so fast they don't even have time to say "SHEILD'S ARE DOWN, CAPTIAN"

Sorry...as nice as it is, it's still just one ship. one ship should never be able to take down an entire fortress because the fortress can inherently hold more men, more missles, and more cannons than the ship does. Many, many, many times more.

This isn't just the CS. In my games, every major power is decked out like this, to an extent. Chi-Town more than most because it's a fortress city, but honestly, any major city on rifts earth should swat a commodity class down like a friggin fly.

I get that they don't due to it being a "Civilian first" Fortress .. not a military base .. there are military bases all around of that I am sure .. (tho hard put to find canon sourced material to back this up, tho it does not back your claim either)

So I get that you said its how you play your games, which in essence means thats all a house rule on your part. Gotcha.

In my games, the CS already have unlimited Dogboys (enough to win war's with almost anyone with alone)
The CS has unlimited resources .. (again this alone would prove a fatal problem for anyone with whom they go to war with.)
The CS has unlimited Troops .. (This has been shown threw out every single major battle they have ever been a part of)
The CS has unlimited script immunities (yet again this alone is more then enough for the CS to literally take on and BEAT .. even powers like TGE .. )

No sir my dear friend. The CS needs not anymore "gimmies" on my part .. to be more powerful then they already are in canon ..

But if you feel the need to beef them up then my friend Have fun and I do like it .. 3 million missile shafts .. (not just 3 million missiles .. each missile shaft I am well aware that you probably have multiples of Missiles in each) is def the way to go.

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Well, see, I do not give the CS Unlimited Script immunity or Unlimited Troops, merely unlimited missles

also, no, I do not mean 3 million missle shafts, I mean 3 million missile batteries. As in about 6-20 missile shafts grouped closely togeather. The actual number of missles shafts is over 300 million

Well, I'm trying to answer the opening question with a bit of seriousness. The CS doesn't have 3 million missile batteries (they don't even have enough people to operate that number of missile launchers

and, btw, you couldn't even fit that many tomahawk missile launchers if every support beam and coffee shop in your city was one). Sure, they'd have a significant number of defenses at Chi-Town. Best case scenario, I'd say they'd have about the same number of weapon systems as a CAF dreadnought from 3 galaxies (albeit, with far less damage due to being lower tech). However, that is grossly over-estimating the CS, since these post-apocalyptic survivors have never encountered a need to implement such weapon systems; not many things that can fly that high have the kind of firepower and defenses as the ship in question. So maybe a few tomahawk missile launchers, no more than probably ten to twelve of them placed strategically around the city, with several long range lasers to take down incoming missiles and nukes. Not saying that is all they have for defenses, just that those are probably all they have that can reach up to that altitude.

CS does not equal a three galaxies power. They are like a very small colony by comparison to the level of things we are talking about.

As for the whole clean nukes bit, if it is a "clean nuke" it is not a nuke. Nuke is short for a nuclear warhead. The nuclear reactions produced by these sort of weapons are never clean: It is physically impossible to create a nuke of any destructive capacity that is as "clean" as what is presented in the Coalition Navy.

But lets say they have these magical +5 nukes of cleanliness. They're only going to be able to fire maybe 1-2 at a time (these are some really really big missiles...), and those will always get higher targeting priority over other incoming missiles for purposes of being shot down (these are three galaxies level powers... they'll know a nuke when they see one). Plus, lets say it somehow manages to get shot down. The CS still loses its entire city because you cannot atomize a ship of this size before it hits the ground. And we are talking a ship almost as big as Chi-Town itself falling down on top of it. The force of impact would atomize the city.
It's a lose-lose.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Well, see, I do not give the CS Unlimited Script immunity or Unlimited Troops, merely unlimited missles

also, no, I do not mean 3 million missle shafts, I mean 3 million missile batteries. As in about 6-20 missile shafts grouped closely togeather. The actual number of missles shafts is over 300 million

Well, I'm trying to answer the opening question with a bit of seriousness. The CS doesn't have 3 million missile batteries (they don't even have enough people to operate that number of missile launchers

They have proven Artifical Intelligence technology. It would be completely trivial to automate missle launchers. Honestly, in my games, the CS dosn't use manpower for manufacturing at all. A factory has one man monitoring as robots handle all physical mundane tasks, leaving Humanity for better, intellectual persuits. And The vast majority of base defences are automated. Humans are Infantry and Pilots, that's it. Missles and energy cannons don't really need humans to aim them.

At least for the lofties. People down low get to deal with stuff on their own.

and, btw, you couldn't even fit that many tomahawk missile launchers if every support beam and coffee shop in your city was one). Sure, they'd have a significant number of defenses at Chi-Town. Best case scenario, I'd say they'd have about the same number of weapon systems as a CAF dreadnought from 3 galaxies (albeit, with far less damage due to being lower tech). However, that is grossly over-estimating the CS, since these post-apocalyptic survivors have never encountered a need to implement such weapon systems; not many things that can fly that high have the kind of firepower and defenses as the ship in question. So maybe a few tomahawk missile launchers, no more than probably ten to twelve of them placed strategically around the city, with several long range lasers to take down incoming missiles and nukes. Not saying that is all they have for defenses, just that those are probably all they have that can reach up to that altitude.

CS does not equal a three galaxies power. They are like a very small colony by comparison to the level of things we are talking about.

As for the whole clean nukes bit, if it is a "clean nuke" it is not a nuke. Nuke is short for a nuclear warhead. The nuclear reactions produced by these sort of weapons are never clean: It is physically impossible to create a nuke of any destructive capacity that is as "clean" as what is presented in the Coalition Navy.

But lets say they have these magical +5 nukes of cleanliness. They're only going to be able to fire maybe 1-2 at a time (these are some really really big missiles...), and those will always get higher targeting priority over other incoming missiles for purposes of being shot down (these are three galaxies level powers... they'll know a nuke when they see one). Plus, lets say it somehow manages to get shot down. The CS still loses its entire city because you cannot atomize a ship of this size before it hits the ground. And we are talking a ship almost as big as Chi-Town itself falling down on top of it. The force of impact would atomize the city.
It's a lose-lose.

I never said that all 300 million missles were tomahacks. at that close a range smaller missles will suffice. and yes, with 300 million plus Mega Damage missles you CAN vaporize a battleship before it hits the ground. that's what mega damage DOES.

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Well, see, I do not give the CS Unlimited Script immunity or Unlimited Troops, merely unlimited missles

also, no, I do not mean 3 million missle shafts, I mean 3 million missile batteries. As in about 6-20 missile shafts grouped closely togeather. The actual number of missles shafts is over 300 million

Well, I'm trying to answer the opening question with a bit of seriousness. The CS doesn't have 3 million missile batteries (they don't even have enough people to operate that number of missile launchers

They have proven Artifical Intelligence technology. It would be completely trivial to automate missle launchers. Honestly, in my games, the CS dosn't use manpower for manufacturing at all. A factory has one man monitoring as robots handle all physical mundane tasks, leaving Humanity for better, intellectual persuits. And The vast majority of base defences are automated. Humans are Infantry and Pilots, that's it. Missles and energy cannons don't really need humans to aim them.

At least for the lofties. People down low get to deal with stuff on their own.

and, btw, you couldn't even fit that many tomahawk missile launchers if every support beam and coffee shop in your city was one). Sure, they'd have a significant number of defenses at Chi-Town. Best case scenario, I'd say they'd have about the same number of weapon systems as a CAF dreadnought from 3 galaxies (albeit, with far less damage due to being lower tech). However, that is grossly over-estimating the CS, since these post-apocalyptic survivors have never encountered a need to implement such weapon systems; not many things that can fly that high have the kind of firepower and defenses as the ship in question. So maybe a few tomahawk missile launchers, no more than probably ten to twelve of them placed strategically around the city, with several long range lasers to take down incoming missiles and nukes. Not saying that is all they have for defenses, just that those are probably all they have that can reach up to that altitude.

CS does not equal a three galaxies power. They are like a very small colony by comparison to the level of things we are talking about.

As for the whole clean nukes bit, if it is a "clean nuke" it is not a nuke. Nuke is short for a nuclear warhead. The nuclear reactions produced by these sort of weapons are never clean: It is physically impossible to create a nuke of any destructive capacity that is as "clean" as what is presented in the Coalition Navy.

But lets say they have these magical +5 nukes of cleanliness. They're only going to be able to fire maybe 1-2 at a time (these are some really really big missiles...), and those will always get higher targeting priority over other incoming missiles for purposes of being shot down (these are three galaxies level powers... they'll know a nuke when they see one). Plus, lets say it somehow manages to get shot down. The CS still loses its entire city because you cannot atomize a ship of this size before it hits the ground. And we are talking a ship almost as big as Chi-Town itself falling down on top of it. The force of impact would atomize the city.
It's a lose-lose.

I never said that all 300 million missles were tomahacks. at that close a range smaller missles will suffice. and yes, with 300 million plus Mega Damage missles you CAN vaporize a battleship before it hits the ground. that's what mega damage DOES.

CS does not possess the resources to have that many missile launchers.

They don't even have enough people to use 3 million launchers, even counting robots.

Also, I don't think you realize the level of physics involved in this situation. Just this thing falling to earth is generating a blast wave equal to several Hiroshima level atomic bombs. The force necessary to stop this thing from hitting the city would end up destroying the city anyway, especially with less than 2 miles before impact.

SRMs can't reach the ship at it's altitude.

Jabborwacky wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Well, see, I do not give the CS Unlimited Script immunity or Unlimited Troops, merely unlimited missles

also, no, I do not mean 3 million missle shafts, I mean 3 million missile batteries. As in about 6-20 missile shafts grouped closely togeather. The actual number of missles shafts is over 300 million

Well, I'm trying to answer the opening question with a bit of seriousness. The CS doesn't have 3 million missile batteries (they don't even have enough people to operate that number of missile launchers, and, btw, you couldn't even fit that many tomahawk missile launchers if every support beam and coffee shop in your city was one). Sure, they'd have a significant number of defenses at Chi-Town. Best case scenario, I'd say they'd have about the same number of weapon systems as a CAF dreadnought from 3 galaxies (albeit, with far less damage due to being lower tech). However, that is grossly over-estimating the CS, since these post-apocalyptic survivors have never encountered a need to implement such weapon systems; not many things that can fly that high have the kind of firepower and defenses as the ship in question. So maybe a few tomahawk missile launchers, no more than probably ten to twelve of them placed strategically around the city, with several long range lasers to take down incoming missiles and nukes. Not saying that is all they have for defenses, just that those are probably all they have that can reach up to that altitude.

CS does not equal a three galaxies power. They are like a very small colony by comparison to the level of things we are talking about.

As for the whole clean nukes bit, if it is a "clean nuke" it is not a nuke. Nuke is short for a nuclear warhead. The nuclear reactions produced by these sort of weapons are never clean: It is physically impossible to create a nuke of any destructive capacity that is as "clean" as what is presented in the Coalition Navy.

But lets say they have these magical +5 nukes of cleanliness. They're only going to be able to fire maybe 1-2 at a time (these are some really really big missiles...), and those will always get higher targeting priority over other incoming missiles for purposes of being shot down (these are three galaxies level powers... they'll know a nuke when they see one). Plus, lets say it somehow manages to get shot down. The CS still loses its entire city because you cannot atomize a ship of this size before it hits the ground. And we are talking a ship almost as big as Chi-Town itself falling down on top of it. The force of impact would atomize the city.
It's a lose-lose.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
also, no, I do not mean 3 million missle shafts, I mean 3 million missile batteries. As in about 6-20 missile shafts grouped closely togeather. The actual number of missles shafts is over 300 million

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

dragonfett wrote:

SRMs can't reach the ship at it's altitude.

Who said that they had to use SRM's? MRM's could reach that altitude without a problem. The real question that we need to be asking at this point is "Would the CS really have that many missile batteries?" Well first, we would have to find out just how many installations the CS has, and figure that the smallest of which will have 4 SRM batteries and 2 MRM batteries with 1 LRM battery. Larger installations and city states would obviously much more. The problem would be figuring out and agreeing on just how many the larger installations would have so that we can get a rough estimate of how many missile batteries the CS just might have. The problem is that we are trying to stat out something that was never meant to be stated out because of the fact that "If you stat it, they can kill it".

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

It's not exactly a house rule, because it's not a rule. It's an estimation of the CS's capabilities for their undescribed city/fortress defenses.
It's not official by any means, but it's just as official as anybody else's guess at what the CS has.
Meaning that anybody who says that Nekira is wrong about her estimate is going off-book just as much as she is.

Which, I believe, is part of her point.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

It's not exactly a house rule, because it's not a rule. It's an estimation of the CS's capabilities for their undescribed city/fortress defenses.
It's not official by any means, but it's just as official as anybody else's guess at what the CS has.
Meaning that anybody who says that Nekira is wrong about her estimate is going off-book just as much as she is.

Which, I believe, is part of her point.

Jack Daniels wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

It's not exactly a house rule, because it's not a rule. It's an estimation of the CS's capabilities for their undescribed city/fortress defenses.
It's not official by any means, but it's just as official as anybody else's guess at what the CS has.
Meaning that anybody who says that Nekira is wrong about her estimate is going off-book just as much as she is.

Which, I believe, is part of her point.

You've raked Lenwen over not providing ALL the info in his OP when he was referencing canon material, now your providing an equivalency defense to this "in my world" estimation?

It seems like you are saying that her estimation is somehow not complete BS even though she added the robot control part after she said there were 300 million missile shafts, which came after she said there were 3 million missile batteries? How is that not the same thing that Lenwen did, except that in her example there isn't even a canon source to refer to?

After all that, assuming you will find a difference between how you are reacting to Nekira vs how you reacted to Lenwen, what about the math? From the part of my post that actually had a point, such as it was. The numbers she provides don't even match up with the numbers she provides. Clearly this is an issue that is not just limited to Palladium's canon material. . .

Jack Daniels wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

It's not exactly a house rule, because it's not a rule. It's an estimation of the CS's capabilities for their undescribed city/fortress defenses.
It's not official by any means, but it's just as official as anybody else's guess at what the CS has.
Meaning that anybody who says that Nekira is wrong about her estimate is going off-book just as much as she is.

Which, I believe, is part of her point.

You've raked Lenwen over not providing ALL the info in his OP when he was referencing canon material, now your providing an equivalency defense to this "in my world" estimation?

It seems like you are saying that her estimation is somehow not complete BS even though she added the robot control part after she said there were 300 million missile shafts, which came after she said there were 3 million missile batteries? How is that not the same thing that Lenwen did, except that in her example there isn't even a canon source to refer to?

After all that, assuming you will find a difference between how you are reacting to Nekira vs how you reacted to Lenwen, what about the math? From the part of my post that actually had a point, such as it was. The numbers she provides don't even match up with the numbers she provides. Clearly this is an issue that is not just limited to Palladium's canon material. . .

I hate it when I find myself defending Lenwen, because he is just so often completely indefensible that even when he is right about something his reputation always suggests otherwise. I'm going to stop right now.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:There is also the problem that you are trying to support your position by using house rules. . .

It's not exactly a house rule, because it's not a rule. It's an estimation of the CS's capabilities for their undescribed city/fortress defenses.
It's not official by any means, but it's just as official as anybody else's guess at what the CS has.
Meaning that anybody who says that Nekira is wrong about her estimate is going off-book just as much as she is.

Which, I believe, is part of her point.

You've raked Lenwen over not providing ALL the info in his OP when he was referencing canon material, now your providing an equivalency defense to this "in my world" estimation?

It seems like you are saying that her estimation is somehow not complete BS even though she added the robot control part after she said there were 300 million missile shafts, which came after she said there were 3 million missile batteries? How is that not the same thing that Lenwen did, except that in her example there isn't even a canon source to refer to?

After all that, assuming you will find a difference between how you are reacting to Nekira vs how you reacted to Lenwen, what about the math? From the part of my post that actually had a point, such as it was. The numbers she provides don't even match up with the numbers she provides. Clearly this is an issue that is not just limited to Palladium's canon material. . .

I hate it when I find myself defending Lenwen, because he is just so often completely indefensible that even when he is right about something his reputation always suggests otherwise. I'm going to stop right now.

It was a simple mental wire cross. I ment over 300 million missles total, not 300 million missle shafts. My bad.

And yes, KC understood my point. My version of Chi-town is exsactly as canon as Lewen's or anyone elses. So his entire exersise over "What would one Phase World Battleship with a small army of cyborg super troopers do to the Coalition", my responce is "Impossible to say, we have only one half of the equation. We know what the Commodity Class Starship can do and what the Naruni bots can do, we have no clue whatsoever just how many and what kind of defences major CS Fortress Cities have.

Lenwen wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Sure, but their decisions are ultimately based on what's profitable, not on revenge.

Sorry Kc .. but the fact of the matter is .. There is a faction that wants Revenge more .. then even profits ..

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Lenwen wrote:The Motherships themselves could be used as a battleship lvl combatent taking on the CS's entire naval fleets (all of whats left) with just the two of them .. and my opinion, rather take them out easily.

I think I have to disagree here.
The Ships only have 1 gun with any real range, the rest would be missile launchers, and missiles are easier to defend against than energy weapons.
Plus, the CS Navy has quite a few subs and other underwater craft, and I don't think that the big ships would go very fast underwater.

The Big ships would assuredly travel faster in water .. by multiple factors of ten .. then anything in the CS military.

How many Subs does the CS have ?

wyrmraker wrote:I would have the ship floating there, attempting to make repairs as the Repo-Bot crew activated some of the Repo-Bots in storage. They would then set up a defensive perimeter of all of the Fire-Spitters and at least 15 of the tanks. The defensive perimeter would encompass roughly a ten mile radius, providing denial cover to the main vessel. The other Repo-Bots would be addressing repairs on the drive system to get it trans-atmospheric again. Meanwhile, they have contacted the local Naruni Enterprises outpost with their Mayday, and are awaiting orders, either to run away or await pickup.

Lenwen wrote:A Naruni Commodity - Class ship complete with its max payload of 99'400 Repobots crashe Lands on Rifts Earth inside of Coalition held territory ..

What do you guys think would be the fall out of such a situation ?

*EDITED*

I was looking at the scenario as it pertains to a crash landed ship, which means all bots intact .. all ship abilities in tact save the ability to break orbits.

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I would have the ship floating there, attempting to make repairs as the Repo-Bot crew activated some of the Repo-Bots in storage. They would then set up a defensive perimeter of all of the Fire-Spitters and at least 15 of the tanks. The defensive perimeter would encompass roughly a ten mile radius, providing denial cover to the main vessel. The other Repo-Bots would be addressing repairs on the drive system to get it trans-atmospheric again. Meanwhile, they have contacted the local Naruni Enterprises outpost with their Mayday, and are awaiting orders, either to run away or await pickup.

Just a bit of clarification here, have you mistaken Repo-Bots as being AI-driven robots? Since Repo-Bots are actually listed as being Cyborgs (albeit with some kind of brain conditioning to inflict a common personality on each) so you wouldn't have deactivated Repo-bots in a storage room somewhere they'd be as active as any other cyborg.

wyrmraker wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I would have the ship floating there, attempting to make repairs as the Repo-Bot crew activated some of the Repo-Bots in storage. They would then set up a defensive perimeter of all of the Fire-Spitters and at least 15 of the tanks. The defensive perimeter would encompass roughly a ten mile radius, providing denial cover to the main vessel. The other Repo-Bots would be addressing repairs on the drive system to get it trans-atmospheric again. Meanwhile, they have contacted the local Naruni Enterprises outpost with their Mayday, and are awaiting orders, either to run away or await pickup.

Just a bit of clarification here, have you mistaken Repo-Bots as being AI-driven robots? Since Repo-Bots are actually listed as being Cyborgs (albeit with some kind of brain conditioning to inflict a common personality on each) so you wouldn't have deactivated Repo-bots in a storage room somewhere they'd be as active as any other cyborg.

Given the contradictions that PB is known for, I understand your stance on this. However, in the Commodity-Class description: "If it is being used exclusively for troop transport, then nearly any mix of men and machines imaginable can be used. At its maximum, it can transport 99,400 Repo-Bots (roughly 650 companies), but the robots are powered down, and stacked up like cordwood until the ship arrives at the combat zone."

That specifically states robots. However, I would also accept cyborgs in storage being brought out of a hibernation state

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I would have the ship floating there, attempting to make repairs as the Repo-Bot crew activated some of the Repo-Bots in storage. They would then set up a defensive perimeter of all of the Fire-Spitters and at least 15 of the tanks. The defensive perimeter would encompass roughly a ten mile radius, providing denial cover to the main vessel. The other Repo-Bots would be addressing repairs on the drive system to get it trans-atmospheric again. Meanwhile, they have contacted the local Naruni Enterprises outpost with their Mayday, and are awaiting orders, either to run away or await pickup.

Just a bit of clarification here, have you mistaken Repo-Bots as being AI-driven robots? Since Repo-Bots are actually listed as being Cyborgs (albeit with some kind of brain conditioning to inflict a common personality on each) so you wouldn't have deactivated Repo-bots in a storage room somewhere they'd be as active as any other cyborg.

Given the contradictions that PB is known for, I understand your stance on this. However, in the Commodity-Class description: "If it is being used exclusively for troop transport, then nearly any mix of men and machines imaginable can be used. At its maximum, it can transport 99,400 Repo-Bots (roughly 650 companies), but the robots are powered down, and stacked up like cordwood until the ship arrives at the combat zone."

That specifically states robots. However, I would also accept cyborgs in storage being brought out of a hibernation state

I imagine the person who wrote that also saw 'Repo-Bot' and simply assumed 'robot' instead of 'cyborg'. Given I've also never heard of putting cyborgs into storage period or having a hibernation mode it seems like some correction needs to be made (although if there is the option of doing so with cyborgs and it's clearly stated in a book somewhere I'm willing to accept it as an option).

wyrmraker wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I would have the ship floating there, attempting to make repairs as the Repo-Bot crew activated some of the Repo-Bots in storage. They would then set up a defensive perimeter of all of the Fire-Spitters and at least 15 of the tanks. The defensive perimeter would encompass roughly a ten mile radius, providing denial cover to the main vessel. The other Repo-Bots would be addressing repairs on the drive system to get it trans-atmospheric again. Meanwhile, they have contacted the local Naruni Enterprises outpost with their Mayday, and are awaiting orders, either to run away or await pickup.

Just a bit of clarification here, have you mistaken Repo-Bots as being AI-driven robots? Since Repo-Bots are actually listed as being Cyborgs (albeit with some kind of brain conditioning to inflict a common personality on each) so you wouldn't have deactivated Repo-bots in a storage room somewhere they'd be as active as any other cyborg.

Given the contradictions that PB is known for, I understand your stance on this. However, in the Commodity-Class description: "If it is being used exclusively for troop transport, then nearly any mix of men and machines imaginable can be used. At its maximum, it can transport 99,400 Repo-Bots (roughly 650 companies), but the robots are powered down, and stacked up like cordwood until the ship arrives at the combat zone."

That specifically states robots. However, I would also accept cyborgs in storage being brought out of a hibernation state

I imagine the person who wrote that also saw 'Repo-Bot' and simply assumed 'robot' instead of 'cyborg'. Given I've also never heard of putting cyborgs into storage period or having a hibernation mode it seems like some correction needs to be made (although if there is the option of doing so with cyborgs and it's clearly stated in a book somewhere I'm willing to accept it as an option).

While it probably isn't canon anywhere in the books that cyborgs can be induced into a hibernation state, it does seem reasonable that a group with sufficient resources could pull it off. Especially a space-faring group. Long periods between the stars, so on and so forth. It would serve to conserve resources, if nothing else.

And let's be honest. It doesn't matter if they're all brainwashed into utterly obedient servants, you get enough military people together and let them get bored enough, dangerous levels of hilarity will ensue.