Top militaries soilder for soilder wise .. your opinions ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey KC, Your numbers are closer, 'tis true. Check out page 115, The Mark I and Mark II body armor has an Inertial Shield built in.

That it does.
No other force field or anything, though, does it?

Also check out page 108, the Destroyer Borg has both a force field and an I-Shield.

My impression was that this thread is about standard infantry, so I have only been comparing Grunts in basic gear vs. Human Troopers in basic gear.

[Killer Cyborg]

*I believe some types of troops on an individual mother ship range in the 280,000,000 range. That's PER troop type mind you.

IIRC, there are 1 billion Wasps per ship.

[Lenwen]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

[Killer Cyborg]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Not at all.
I just wanted to hear Nightmask's rationale.
As I explained in another post, the mechanoids by their nature toy with their prey
It's not that the CS or the Megaversal Legion need to be particularly fierce and powerful to survive that time, it's that the mechanoids are going to take longer than that amount of time as a rule, no matter who they're dealing with.
Because they enjoy it.

From Nightmask's post, it seemed that he was completely unaware of this fact, so I was giving him an opportunity to point out something that I might have missed in the books, or to flip through the books himself and discover his error.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey KC, Your numbers are closer, 'tis true. Check out page 115, The Mark I and Mark II body armor has an Inertial Shield built in.

That it does.
No other force field or anything, though, does it?

Also check out page 108, the Destroyer Borg has both a force field and an I-Shield.

My impression was that this thread is about standard infantry, so I have only been comparing Grunts in basic gear vs. Human Troopers in basic gear.

I thought it was standard infantry plus support elements.

It could well be.
Lenwen would need to clarify what specifically he was asking about.

If it is just standard line infantry then the Legion has double the MDC and the ability to negate 25%-50% of the explosive based weapon system (grenades, mini missiles) even though the Legion IAR weapon systems are only "just as good" after nerfing.

This is something that I missed when I was constructing my scenario: the ability of the field to prevent impact-activated explosives from detonating. There is no information about how micro-fusion grenades detonate, but knowing Palladium I'd say that it's pretty safe to assume that they're impact-activated.
With that piece of information, the doubled MDC would no longer be as effectively compensated for by the firepower of the Dragonfire's grenade volley.

On average, slightly more than half of the micro-fusion grenades would be deflected/deactivated by the field, greatly reducing the effectiveness of the weapon, giving the Megaversal Troopers a much stronger edge than before.

Also need to determine how you build the Fire Team and Platoons involved.

Agreed.
I read and have made mental note of your assessment based on the US marine model, but have looked through the books to see what is written about the armies in question specifically.

The Megaversal Legion has platoons of 20-40 people or 3-6 vehicles (SA2 103). Platoons are made of 5-10 soldiers, with no vehicles.
Since many of the humans seem to be from the 7th Cavalry, or their descendants, and there is no real information for how the legion itself does things, I looked at using the US army fire team composition would be a better basis than the marines:
-Team Leader: Provides tactical leadership for the team at all times. Equipped with an IAR-20 Rifle (instead of the M16 rifle or M4 carbine.
-Rifleman: Is 'the baseline standard for all Infantrymen'. They are equipped with an IAR-20 Rifle (again, instead of the M16 rifle or M4 carbine). The rifleman is usually assigned with the grenadier to help balance the firepower capabilities of the automatic rifleman.
-Grenadier: Provides limited indirect fire over 'dead space'. Equipped with a H-11A Howitzer (instead of an M4/M16 with the M203 or M302 grenade launcher).
-Automatic Rifleman: provides suppressive fire; equipped with an ARP-1 Plasma Assault Rifle (instead of an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon).

Which, of course, nets out the same as what you came up with.

I still say that even nerfed the Legion is better than the CS at the infantry fire team level.

And based on the stats of a typical CS Short Range Reconnaissance Squad (SB1 27), and the usefulness of the I-Field, I have to agree.
Some of the other Squads, though, indicate that there would be some CS fireteams that could prevail over the standard Megaversal Infantry, though these would win by bringing in power armor and/or sky cycles, psychics, or other factors that would make them more than standard infantry.

[Lenwen]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Not at all.
I just wanted to hear Nightmask's rationale.
As I explained in another post, the mechanoids by their nature toy with their prey
It's not that the CS or the Megaversal Legion need to be particularly fierce and powerful to survive that time, it's that the mechanoids are going to take longer than that amount of time as a rule, no matter who they're dealing with.
Because they enjoy it.

From Nightmask's post, it seemed that he was completely unaware of this fact, so I was giving him an opportunity to point out something that I might have missed in the books, or to flip through the books himself and discover his error.

Then the question which begs to be asked by me to you is simple.

Yes or no .. Do the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage the CS enjoy's against lesser opposition ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes or no .. Do the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage the CS enjoy's against lesser opposition ?

Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for, but I'd say that the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage that anybody enjoys against lesser opposition.

[Nightmask]

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Not at all.
I just wanted to hear Nightmask's rationale.
As I explained in another post, the mechanoids by their nature toy with their prey
It's not that the CS or the Megaversal Legion need to be particularly fierce and powerful to survive that time, it's that the mechanoids are going to take longer than that amount of time as a rule, no matter who they're dealing with.
Because they enjoy it.

From Nightmask's post, it seemed that he was completely unaware of this fact, so I was giving him an opportunity to point out something that I might have missed in the books, or to flip through the books himself and discover his error.

Then the question which begs to be asked by me to you is simple.

Yes or no .. Do the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage the CS enjoy's against lesser opposition ?

Some people seem to be confused, mistaking the fact that someone might toy with an opponent as if it means that the opponent actually had a chance or were better than they actually were. Some mediocre nation on a ravaged planet that can't even truly protect and hold all the land it says belongs to it (if it could it wouldn't let places like the Burbs exist) against an opponent that can wage simultaneous war across an entire planet isn't going to last any longer than it takes for the opponent to sweep it from end to end. Just because Tyson say lets someone who couldn't beat him go 20 rounds with him before putting him down doesn't mean the guy is a heavy duty threat.

While the Mechanoids enjoy toying with a target they also aren't going to let it really stand up to them either, if you can defend an entire planet in furious battle with them for 23hrs you're more than just good you're in the elite for the megaverse. Some seem to want to downplay their lethal nature and their range of benefits, perhaps because they don't like their favorite being outclassed by anyone but the Mechanoids are a threat created to be a super-implacable foe for a galaxy (or even universe, not sure how expansive they are in their setting) of sentient races and no single planet especially one that's not even up to Phase World standards is rationallly going to stand any real chance against them.

Hmmm, so you'd just about have to class them as the one with the best soldiers, and Megaversal Legion coming in second. But only because the Dakar for example aren't for some reason soldiers and don't supply their mega-technology to anyone else and keep it to themselves (but not so surprising when you can outfit a single soldier with gear that makes him able to inflict and take damage like a Proctor Long-range Interceptor from Phase World).

[Lenwen]

Yes or no .. Do the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage the CS enjoy's against lesser opposition ?

Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for, but I'd say that the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage that anybody enjoys against lesser opposition.

That will suffice I guess KC .

lmao

[Lenwen]

While the Mechanoids enjoy toying with a target they also aren't going to let it really stand up to them either, if you can defend an entire planet in furious battle with them for 23hrs you're more than just good you're in the elite for the megaverse.

Yes. I understand this sentiment. And I fully 100% completely agree with it.

Sure the Mechanoids WILL toy with the CS .. but even while in the "playing with their opponants" phase of the mechanoids assault .. the Coalition would not hold out even for a quarter as long as what the Megaversal legion did.

They are just not that good (the CS) when compared to the Megaversal legion soilder to soilder .. stratagy to stratagy employed or overall capability .

I personally have shown the Coalition will NEVER .. take on an opponant they "think" might pose an actual lose on their part .. Their strengths are as follows ..
1)- Always have the higher tech ..
2) - Always have the higher trained soilders ..
3) - Always have the advantage of numbers .. usually by millions .. (with out this alone they would not be as badass as they are)

Now against the Mechanoids ..
1) - Their tech is the equivlent of kids toys ..
2) - Their soilder's are the kids holding the kids toys ..
3) - No matter what .. they do not have the number's advantage in any situation against the mechanoids in a planetary invasion ..

The mechanoids even toying with the CS ... would wipe them off the planet within 10hrs .. at most ..

[Killer Cyborg]

While the Mechanoids enjoy toying with a target they also aren't going to let it really stand up to them either, if you can defend an entire planet in furious battle with them for 23hrs you're more than just good you're in the elite for the megaverse.

You haven't actually read the mechanoid books, have you?

[Grell]

While the Mechanoids enjoy toying with a target they also aren't going to let it really stand up to them either, if you can defend an entire planet in furious battle with them for 23hrs you're more than just good you're in the elite for the megaverse.

You haven't actually read the mechanoid books, have you?

Yeah, 23 hours doesn't make you elite; it means they mockingly gave you a "sporting chance".

[Pepsi Jedi]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Easy..... if the CS went to 'War" With the Mechanoids.. it'd be because they wouldn't have a choice. Fight or die. Given those options. They're gonna fight.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Not at all.
I just wanted to hear Nightmask's rationale.
As I explained in another post, the mechanoids by their nature toy with their prey
It's not that the CS or the Megaversal Legion need to be particularly fierce and powerful to survive that time, it's that the mechanoids are going to take longer than that amount of time as a rule, no matter who they're dealing with.
Because they enjoy it.

From Nightmask's post, it seemed that he was completely unaware of this fact, so I was giving him an opportunity to point out something that I might have missed in the books, or to flip through the books himself and discover his error.

Then the question which begs to be asked by me to you is simple.

Yes or no .. Do the mechanoids take away every single strategic advantage the CS enjoy's against lesser opposition ?

Some people seem to be confused, mistaking the fact that someone might toy with an opponent as if it means that the opponent actually had a chance or were better than they actually were.

And some people won't back up their claims when repeatedly asked to, and ignore them. Why is that Nightmask? Know you actually can NOT back them up?

Some mediocre nation on a ravaged planet that can't even truly protect and hold all the land it says belongs to it (if it could it wouldn't let places like the Burbs exist)

Another falsehood. The burbs exist -because- the CS want them too. Even then, they exist only at the CS sufferage. They routinely go out and burn them down when the need arises. The burbs are there because the CS doesn't want ALL Those people in the super cities, and they serve a purpose. They're not some "Irremovable problem" like you're making out.

against an opponent that can wage simultaneous war across an entire planet isn't going to last any longer than it takes for the opponent to sweep it from end to end. Just because Tyson say lets someone who couldn't beat him go 20 rounds with him before putting him down doesn't mean the guy is a heavy duty threat.

There's a difference between being overwhelmed eventually by bagillions of foes, and "Gone in 5 minutes".

While the Mechanoids enjoy toying with a target they also aren't going to let it really stand up to them either, if you can defend an entire planet in furious battle with them for 23hrs you're more than just good you're in the elite for the megaverse.

Why not? A cat can kill a mouse at it's leisure but has fun smacking it around. Letting it go. Recatchhing it. Scaring it. Batting it around. 23 hours is .. You know... A day. If you have bazillions of troops... what's playing with a group of bipeds for a day? Oh..... a game.. like others have pointed out.

You do realize that while they have all those troops they're not instanly deployable? Think about how long it would take to just disembark and land that many troops. Or even just launch the airtroops. It'd probably take days if not weeks just to get them off the ship. lol

"Playing" with a little group of people for a day is nothing.

Some seem to want to downplay their lethal nature and their range of benefits, perhaps because they don't like their favorite being outclassed by anyone but the Mechanoids are a threat created to be a super-implacable foe for a galaxy (or even universe, not sure how expansive they are in their setting) of sentient races and no single planet especially one that's not even up to Phase World standards is rationallly going to stand any real chance against them

For one simple reason. Numbers. If you take that away. Their zillions and zillions of troops. They're not all THAT impressive. Noone's saying they can't curb stomp everything. As written they can, but that's because they have the Zillions and Zillions.

In smaller numbers they're no big deal. As pointed out. Archie and Hagan kicked them off earth largely on their own.

Groups of similar size, the Mechinoids are ok, but nothing universe shaking. THAT's what people are saying. It's only when you've got a googlepex of troops that they're unbeatable. I could take a zillion floopers and take over earth. I could take a Zillion City Rats and do the same. With 1d6md Pistols.

When you're entire race is based off the "Zerg rush" It's not that you're that good. You've 'Just' got numbers.

Take away those numbers, and it's no big thing.

Hmmm, so you'd just about have to class them as the one with the best soldiers, and Megaversal Legion coming in second.

No you don't. Overwhelming numbers does not reflect on SOLIDER FOR SOLIDER comparison.

If you're comparing Billions of troops vs millions of troops. Yeah.. they'll win.

if you took 1 on 1 or 5 mechinoids vs 5 CS troops... not so clear cut.

[Lenwen]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Easy..... if the CS went to 'War" With the Mechanoids.. it'd be because they wouldn't have a choice. Fight or die. Given those options. They're gonna fight.

And you have not acknoledged yes or no ..

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

[Pepsi Jedi]

I said the CS wouldn't last five minutes let alone 23 hrs against the Mechanoids.

Again, cite your sources for this claim.
Repeating an unsupported opinion does not give it any more strength than it had the first time.

By the same token ..

The mechanoids bring to the table every single thing the CS would NEVER go to war against .. Because the Mechanoids take away every single advantage the CS has held in every major military conflict they ever had ..

With those gone ..

The CS is toast ..

Unless you know something no one else on the entire site knows about the CS ?

Easy..... if the CS went to 'War" With the Mechanoids.. it'd be because they wouldn't have a choice. Fight or die. Given those options. They're gonna fight.

And you have not acknoledged yes or no ..

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

Nope. The CS would hold out as long or longer than the ML. They're about 100 times bigger than the ML.

[Lenwen]

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

Nope. The CS would hold out as long or longer than the ML. They're about 100 times bigger than the ML.

They have never faced an opponant as numerically superior as the Mechanoids .. Who have higher tech ..

Sorry if you do not want your "guys" to lose .. but the CS would not last as long as you wish against them .

[Killer Cyborg]

I personally have shown the Coalition will NEVER .. take on an opponant they "think" might pose an actual lose on their part ..

Can you link to the post where you did that?
I must have missed it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

Have YOU actually read the Mechanoid books?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

Nope. The CS would hold out as long or longer than the ML. They're about 100 times bigger than the ML.

They have never faced an opponant as numerically superior as the Mechanoids .. Who have higher tech ..

Sorry if you do not want your "guys" to lose .. but the CS would not last as long as you wish against them .

Neither did the ML, till they did. *shrugs* I'm not saying the CS would win. I'm saying they'd hold out longer than the ML. The ML have like 100,000 to 300,000 troops. CS has troops in the millions. They'll hold out longer.

[Lenwen]

Even toying with the CS .. as the Mechanoids do .. the CS would be wiped off the map within 10hrs at the max !

Nope. The CS would hold out as long or longer than the ML. They're about 100 times bigger than the ML.

They have never faced an opponant as numerically superior as the Mechanoids .. Who have higher tech ..

Sorry if you do not want your "guys" to lose .. but the CS would not last as long as you wish against them .

Neither did the ML, till they did. *shrugs* I'm not saying the CS would win. I'm saying they'd hold out longer than the ML. The ML have like 100,000 to 300,000 troops. CS has troops in the millions. They'll hold out longer.

Which clearly shows just how powerful the ML is ..

LMAO !!

Thank you for showing my arguement my friend

EDIT : The CS does not have troops in the millions .. the books CLEARLY indicate they are now weaker then they have been in a VERY long time .

Canonly speaking the CS might not even have a million left ..

[Shark_Force]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS does not have troops in the millions

As of CWC, they had 1.6 million surplus old-style SAMAS in use by the ISS.
They had a total of 3.2 million surplus old-style, which indicates that they had around that many new-style SAMAS in service in the military before the SoT.
Unless you think that the bulk of their army is composed of SAMAS, this would indicate that they have millions of other soldiers as well.
Not to mention Skelebots and Dog Boys.

[Lenwen]

The CS does not have troops in the millions

As of CWC, they had 1.6 million surplus old-style SAMAS in use by the ISS.
They had a total of 3.2 million surplus old-style, which indicates that they had around that many new-style SAMAS in service in the military before the SoT.
Unless you think that the bulk of their army is composed of SAMAS, this would indicate that they have millions of other soldiers as well.
Not to mention Skelebots and Dog Boys.

So your trying to include the ISS into the military ?

And you honestly think "surplus" equipment means a body for each available surplus unit ?

I do not think you are even remotly correct .. especially since Aftermath clearly stated the CS has been weakened .. and is actually now scared other enemies may go on an attack against it .

Canonly speaking the Coalition is no where near the strength levels you pro CS people make them out to be ..

[Nightmask]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

Tells you how good they are from a tech perspective and skill perspective, clearly the book doesn't adequately cover the real level of power the ML has (not surprising though, they just about need an entire book to really cover what they have and what their former slave masters had).

[Nightmask]

Nope. The CS would hold out as long or longer than the ML. They're about 100 times bigger than the ML.

They have never faced an opponant as numerically superior as the Mechanoids .. Who have higher tech ..

Sorry if you do not want your "guys" to lose .. but the CS would not last as long as you wish against them .

Neither did the ML, till they did. *shrugs* I'm not saying the CS would win. I'm saying they'd hold out longer than the ML. The ML have like 100,000 to 300,000 troops. CS has troops in the millions. They'll hold out longer.

Which clearly shows just how powerful the ML is ..

LMAO !!

Thank you for showing my arguement my friend

EDIT : The CS does not have troops in the millions .. the books CLEARLY indicate they are now weaker then they have been in a VERY long time .

Canonly speaking the CS might not even have a million left ..

And they still wouldn't even last against a concerted 'you aren't worth torturing we're just going to kill you' attack more than an hour and that only because even with a planetary invasion force it might take more than a few minutes to find the CS troops to kill them. So while technically going 'hey it took them 2 hrs to find everyone!' makes it sound like a long time it's not when as soon as they're found they're erased in a few minutes. Something that can field a force so large it can attack nearly every location on an entire planet is going to erase something like the CS as well as Triax and Japan. Only because they have all those MDC monsters would China last for any measurable length of time and Atlantis because they've knowledge and experience with Mechanoids. Only the ML is known to have been able in spite of their small numbers to successfully protect an entire planet from such a multiple-front force and do it for a total evacuation and with almost trivial losses especially compared to their enemy.

[Killer Cyborg]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

You're only kind of crazy.

Here's the actual text of the encounter we're discussing:

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Which is impressive- nobody is denying that.
These are definitely good soldiers.

My main objection is to the notion that "the CS couldn't last x hours" against the Mechanoids.
My secondary objection is that surviving 19 hours is all that grand of an achievement for a large-scale mega-damage army.

SB2 31
The Mechanoids' emotional state of mind makes it impossible for most to believe that any human could be their equal. Consequently, they underestimate humanoid foes. This can lead to a chain reaction of mounting anger, frustration and foolish behavior on the part of the Mechanoids. They are easily provoked by humans who exhibit cunning, courage, strength of will, ingenuity, and arrogance. This may stimulate any number of potentially dangerous reactions from the aliens, including an unwillingness to surrender or negotiate with humanoids, taking foolish risks, rash behavior and carelessness, striking out in anger or frustration, mindless aggression, berserker rage, suicidal revenge (taking an action that may kill itself as long as the human dies too), or methodical Jack-The-Ripper type stalking, slaughter, and dissection.

To witness the devouring of a planet was both horrifying and amazing. Typically, only planets occupied by humanoids suffered this fate. First the planet would be defoliated. Second, millions of Mechanoids and their robot armies would swarm on the planet to "play with the humans. Play constituted the razing of cities, mass slaughter of the population, and terrible experiments and torture of captives. The third step was the syphoning of the oceans, followed by the removal of the atmosphere. Finally the planet would be cut into smaller sections, swallowed by the gigantic mothership and processed. Obviously, the dissection and consumption of the planet would destroy all of its inhabitants. Thus, the Mechanoids did not need to send troops to the planet's surface unless they faced substantial resistance. They enjoy the murder and mayhem caused by their hands, hence the previous reference to "play with the humans."

This is a process that takes days, if not weeks or months, to accomplish.
The Megaversal Legion's defense of the planet seems to have taken place just at the start of phase 2, the "play" phase.
This phase is not how the Mechanoids destroy planets. It is how they have fun, and soften up defenses.
The planetary defenders, be they the inhabitants (or mercenaries) of Gideon E, or Arctares' World, or Earth, aren't meant to be crushed by this kind of attack, only damaged and distracted long enough for the Mechanoids to physically carve the planet into pieces.
Which doesn't happen in 10 hours, or 19 hours, or 23 hours.
It's a lengthy process.
Claiming that somebody wouldn't last that long is absurd- the Mechanoids COULD crush pretty much any resistance in the Megaverse if they were really trying... but they don't REALLY try to. They play.

A 30+:1 kill ration IS pretty impressive as a general rule, but without knowing the parameters, we can't say exactly HOW impressive it is in this case.
How many kills was it exactly?
What kind?
Does it include Thinmen and Runts? Skimmers? Weevils? Runt Repair Bots? Or just actual Mechanoids?

Let's say that the Megaversal Legion is clever, and their lack of casualties was due more to successful hiding than to surviving combats.
Let's say they get lucky, and they take out a lone Battle Cruiser, through a missile barrage or something.
IF they did, then that's 170,000+ kills right there.

Or let's say that the Mechanoids decide to send in Thinmen and Runts first, a light force of 10 million of them.... but it turns out the Thinmen and Runts are about as good at adapting to unconventional thinking and unexpected events as Skelebots, and they suffer some devastating traps and defeats that decimate their forces.
That's a million casualties right there.

The Mechanoids are a "Kill All You Want- We'll Make More" type enemy.
Achieving a high kill ratio against somebody with their firepower and technology is certainly a feat, but it's not necessarily as impressive as some here are making it out to be.
And it's not necessarily something that the CS or other high-tech powers couldn't accomplish.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS does not have troops in the millions

As of CWC, they had 1.6 million surplus old-style SAMAS in use by the ISS.
They had a total of 3.2 million surplus old-style, which indicates that they had around that many new-style SAMAS in service in the military before the SoT.
Unless you think that the bulk of their army is composed of SAMAS, this would indicate that they have millions of other soldiers as well.
Not to mention Skelebots and Dog Boys.

So your trying to include the ISS into the military ?

And you honestly think "surplus" equipment means a body for each available surplus unit ?

No.
I'm saying that if the CS Military had 3.2 million suits of power armor that was rendered obsolete when their NEW power armor was finished being produced, that indicates that they had roughly the same number of the new stuff as they had of the old: 3.2 million.
I'm saying that if the CS has not just 1.6 million cops patrolling the cities, but 1.6 million that are worth assigning power armor to, that indicates that they have an even larger number of soldiers.

Canonly speaking the Coalition is no where near the strength levels you pro CS people make them out to be ..

I'm not pro-CS.
I'm using the numbers that are in the books.
If you want to say that I'm wrong, by all means do so.
Just use support from the books, not from your own imagination.

Just because the CS is weaker now than the were before the SoT doesn't mean that they don't have millions of soldiers.
We know that SAMAS pilots are probably not the bulk of the CS military.
We know that there were 3.2 million old-style SAMAS retired around 105 PA, so there were likely around that number of new suits.

We know now that the CS is weaker than they were in 105 PA, but
<(~3 million SAMAS pilots, plus x footsoldiers, plus y skycycle pilots, plus z robot pilots, plus b Borgs, plus c aircraft pilots, pluc d dogboys, plus e psi-stalkers, plus f skelebots, plus g tank crews, plus h commandos, plus i special forces, plus j military specialists, plus etc. etc. etc.) is NOT necessarily the tiny number that you seem to think that it is.

And hey, this is Palladium. Any and all numbers could be incorrect and/or changed at a moment's notice.
But right now, they're canon, so how about we work with them?

[Grell]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

You're only kind of crazy.

Here's the actual text of the encounter we're discussing:

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Which is impressive- nobody is denying that.
These are definitely good soldiers.

My main objection is to the notion that "the CS couldn't last x hours" against the Mechanoids.
My secondary objection is that surviving 19 hours is all that grand of an achievement for a large-scale mega-damage army.

SB2 31
The Mechanoids' emotional state of mind makes it impossible for most to believe that any human could be their equal. Consequently, they underestimate humanoid foes. This can lead to a chain reaction of mounting anger, frustration and foolish behavior on the part of the Mechanoids. They are easily provoked by humans who exhibit cunning, courage, strength of will, ingenuity, and arrogance. This may stimulate any number of potentially dangerous reactions from the aliens, including an unwillingness to surrender or negotiate with humanoids, taking foolish risks, rash behavior and carelessness, striking out in anger or frustration, mindless aggression, berserker rage, suicidal revenge (taking an action that may kill itself as long as the human dies too), or methodical Jack-The-Ripper type stalking, slaughter, and dissection.

To witness the devouring of a planet was both horrifying and amazing. Typically, only planets occupied by humanoids suffered this fate. First the planet would be defoliated. Second, millions of Mechanoids and their robot armies would swarm on the planet to "play with the humans. Play constituted the razing of cities, mass slaughter of the population, and terrible experiments and torture of captives. The third step was the syphoning of the oceans, followed by the removal of the atmosphere. Finally the planet would be cut into smaller sections, swallowed by the gigantic mothership and processed. Obviously, the dissection and consumption of the planet would destroy all of its inhabitants. Thus, the Mechanoids did not need to send troops to the planet's surface unless they faced substantial resistance. They enjoy the murder and mayhem caused by their hands, hence the previous reference to "play with the humans."

This is a process that takes days, if not weeks or months, to accomplish.
The Megaversal Legion's defense of the planet seems to have taken place just at the start of phase 2, the "play" phase.
This phase is not how the Mechanoids destroy planets. It is how they have fun, and soften up defenses.
The planetary defenders, be they the inhabitants (or mercenaries) of Gideon E, or Arctares' World, or Earth, aren't meant to be crushed by this kind of attack, only damaged and distracted long enough for the Mechanoids to physically carve the planet into pieces.
Which doesn't happen in 10 hours, or 19 hours, or 23 hours.
It's a lengthy process.
Claiming that somebody wouldn't last that long is absurd- the Mechanoids COULD crush pretty much any resistance in the Megaverse if they were really trying... but they don't REALLY try to. They play.

A 30+:1 kill ration IS pretty impressive as a general rule, but without knowing the parameters, we can't say exactly HOW impressive it is in this case.
How many kills was it exactly?
What kind?
Does it include Thinmen and Runts? Skimmers? Weevils? Runt Repair Bots? Or just actual Mechanoids?

Let's say that the Megaversal Legion is clever, and their lack of casualties was due more to successful hiding than to surviving combats.
Let's say they get lucky, and they take out a lone Battle Cruiser, through a missile barrage or something.
IF they did, then that's 170,000+ kills right there.

Or let's say that the Mechanoids decide to send in Thinmen and Runts first, a light force of 10 million of them.... but it turns out the Thinmen and Runts are about as good at adapting to unconventional thinking and unexpected events as Skelebots, and they suffer some devastating traps and defeats that decimate their forces.
That's a million casualties right there.

The Mechanoids are a "Kill All You Want- We'll Make More" type enemy.
Achieving a high kill ratio against somebody with their firepower and technology is certainly a feat, but it's not necessarily as impressive as some here are making it out to be.
And it's not necessarily something that the CS or other high-tech powers couldn't accomplish.

Enthusiastically seconded.

[Nightmask]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

You're only kind of crazy.

Here's the actual text of the encounter we're discussing:

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Which is impressive- nobody is denying that.
These are definitely good soldiers.

My main objection is to the notion that "the CS couldn't last x hours" against the Mechanoids.
My secondary objection is that surviving 19 hours is all that grand of an achievement for a large-scale mega-damage army.

SB2 31
The Mechanoids' emotional state of mind makes it impossible for most to believe that any human could be their equal. Consequently, they underestimate humanoid foes. This can lead to a chain reaction of mounting anger, frustration and foolish behavior on the part of the Mechanoids. They are easily provoked by humans who exhibit cunning, courage, strength of will, ingenuity, and arrogance. This may stimulate any number of potentially dangerous reactions from the aliens, including an unwillingness to surrender or negotiate with humanoids, taking foolish risks, rash behavior and carelessness, striking out in anger or frustration, mindless aggression, berserker rage, suicidal revenge (taking an action that may kill itself as long as the human dies too), or methodical Jack-The-Ripper type stalking, slaughter, and dissection.

To witness the devouring of a planet was both horrifying and amazing. Typically, only planets occupied by humanoids suffered this fate. First the planet would be defoliated. Second, millions of Mechanoids and their robot armies would swarm on the planet to "play with the humans. Play constituted the razing of cities, mass slaughter of the population, and terrible experiments and torture of captives. The third step was the syphoning of the oceans, followed by the removal of the atmosphere. Finally the planet would be cut into smaller sections, swallowed by the gigantic mothership and processed. Obviously, the dissection and consumption of the planet would destroy all of its inhabitants. Thus, the Mechanoids did not need to send troops to the planet's surface unless they faced substantial resistance. They enjoy the murder and mayhem caused by their hands, hence the previous reference to "play with the humans."

This is a process that takes days, if not weeks or months, to accomplish.
The Megaversal Legion's defense of the planet seems to have taken place just at the start of phase 2, the "play" phase.
This phase is not how the Mechanoids destroy planets. It is how they have fun, and soften up defenses.
The planetary defenders, be they the inhabitants (or mercenaries) of Gideon E, or Arctares' World, or Earth, aren't meant to be crushed by this kind of attack, only damaged and distracted long enough for the Mechanoids to physically carve the planet into pieces.
Which doesn't happen in 10 hours, or 19 hours, or 23 hours.
It's a lengthy process.
Claiming that somebody wouldn't last that long is absurd- the Mechanoids COULD crush pretty much any resistance in the Megaverse if they were really trying... but they don't REALLY try to. They play.

A 30+:1 kill ration IS pretty impressive as a general rule, but without knowing the parameters, we can't say exactly HOW impressive it is in this case.
How many kills was it exactly?
What kind?
Does it include Thinmen and Runts? Skimmers? Weevils? Runt Repair Bots? Or just actual Mechanoids?

Let's say that the Megaversal Legion is clever, and their lack of casualties was due more to successful hiding than to surviving combats.
Let's say they get lucky, and they take out a lone Battle Cruiser, through a missile barrage or something.
IF they did, then that's 170,000+ kills right there.

Or let's say that the Mechanoids decide to send in Thinmen and Runts first, a light force of 10 million of them.... but it turns out the Thinmen and Runts are about as good at adapting to unconventional thinking and unexpected events as Skelebots, and they suffer some devastating traps and defeats that decimate their forces.
That's a million casualties right there.

The Mechanoids are a "Kill All You Want- We'll Make More" type enemy.
Achieving a high kill ratio against somebody with their firepower and technology is certainly a feat, but it's not necessarily as impressive as some here are making it out to be.
And it's not necessarily something that the CS or other high-tech powers couldn't accomplish.

Enthusiastically seconded.

Kind of missing the part that the damage they can take and inflict is generally greater for nearly all units in the mechanoid army compared to nearly all armies on Rifts Earth including the CS. Zerg rush by inferior forces is one thing, Zerg rush by superior forces is quite another. So it really is fairly unrealistic to think the CS could even begin to approach a double digit kill ratio let alone triple digit. They really aren't that impressive, they're just a small nation realistically and even with handwaving on the resources they've access to they simply don't have quality or quantity enough to handle anything close to a representative portion of the Mechanoids. They aren't going to come at the CS or anyone else in manageable ground troops, from one or a couple of directions you can concentrate your efforts on they'll come in from all sides and from above. They would hit Chi-Town at the same time they're hitting Northern Gun, Atlantis, Japan, and everyone else. Few people on Rifts Earth have any idea how to deal with that or the skill and tech to do so.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kind of missing the part that the damage they can take and inflict is generally greater for nearly all units in the mechanoid army compared to nearly all armies on Rifts Earth including the CS.

Not at all.
You're kind of missing the way the Mechanoids operate.
Until you give me some kind of indication that you've even read the books, your view doesn't matter here.

[Pepsi Jedi]

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Something that people seem to be missing here. Note the numbers. (( not KC, but he's the one that actually went to the shelf and quoted the book ))

One hundred to one. 100:1 Ratio of invaders.

Now pause. That's a very very very low number of Mechanoids.

Now take it to the board!!

If the Megaversal Legion is there, with every man woman and cook that they have. They have about 100,000 to 300,000. That's including support. We won't go into the logistics of moving, feeding and upkeeping an army. For simplicity sake. Lets (( for this only)) Assume that every single one of them were combat troops ((ABSURD but I'm making a numbers point here, bare with me)) That means there were only 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 mechinoids there.

Now you're going 'Dude. only one to three million? That not alot where you're from?"

No.. it's not... not for PLANETARY invasion or destruction. Look at Earth. 29.2% of the surface of earth is land. which is actually pretty low when you think about it, but lets go with that number. 29.2% of earth being land. That equals out to 57.5 MILLION square miles.

So that boils down to one to three mechinoids per 58 -square miles-. That's alot of ground to cover. And alot of places to hide from the big bad b

In case you're wondering, and you take out the oceans and Antarctica, the current population density of earth is about 115 per square mile. so you're looking at 6670 people per 1 to 3 mechinoids if they attacked earth today, with those numbers.

"But wait!! read all the wayy to the end!! The ML Evacuated a billion people. Not earth's population" That actually makes it worse. Earth's Current population is about 6,840,507,000 people. So for sake of easy math lets call it 7 billion. 7 times as many people as the ML dealt with. So lets crunch that math. 16.4 people per square mile.

Now... one... to three Mechinoids per 58 square miles. Looking for 16 people per square mile. *shakes head* Makes that populace pretty hard to find I'd think. Lots of people can hide in a square mile. Finding 16 people in a square mile would be pretty hard.

Now I know... population density is nice to throw out as numbers but people don't live like that. They just bunch up. I know. i was just showing you how small the force the Mechinoids launched was.

To put it in more perspective.. the Mechinoids went to 'invade' a PLANET with a force.... roughly the size of the number of people that live in Either Rhode Island ( 1,052,567) To Mississippi. (2,967,297)

Pause and think about that for a moment. They're not so scary when you look at it that way. One mechinoid per 58 square miles.... They're going to invade a ---PLANET--- with numbers equal to the population of Rhode island?? The planetary population out numbered the Mechinoids 333 to one. lol That's if you're assuming the larger number of mechinoids. If you go the other way it could be 1000 to one.

I gotta say they wern't trying all that hard. One on one with the people of Rhode Island? Come on.

Now... as said clearly those billion people lived in population clusters. And the ML was rifting them out. But still, one to three mechinoids for almost 60 square miles? No wonder the ML ripped them up. It's pretty easy to take out three mechinoids per 60 square miles.

And yeah.. the Mechinoids are going to go around in groups too. But they still have an entire planet to scour.


The numbers if you look at them just aren't nearly as impressive as they look at first blush. Sure throwing around 100 to one!! and such. Look deeper.

Their kill ratio was 30 to 1. And they only lost 7% of their people to death.

So the ML lost 7,000 to 21,000. Pretty big numbers.. Kinda.
The Mechinoids only lost 210,000 to 630,000 Much bigger numbers. Much lower percentage.

So at the end of the engagement. The Mechinoids still had 790,000 to 2,370,000 troops kicking around.

If you do that math out, even at 30 to 1 kill ratio.

The ML lost 7% of it's forces
the Mechinoids lost.. a touch over 2% of theirs?

Now.... that we've taken that all the way to the end.

Yeah the ML and the Mechinoids fought.

No it wasn't a 'Serious engagement' from the Mechinoids side. Rhode island vs a planet? even assuming EVERY SINGLE ML was a fighter and you multiplied by the largest number the ML might have.. that's 3 million Mechinoids to take over a planet? Not a serious effort.

Nor was it a war. As other people point out, they were playing.

At the end of the battle (( 19 hours, doesn't a war make. it was a running battle less than a day)) the ML buried 7% of their force. The mechinoids buried (( if they do bury)) a little over 2% of theirs.

The ML didn't BEAT the Mechinoids. They lost almost one in ten men, RUNNING from the Mechinoids as the Mechinoids played around.

7% isn't HORRIBLE losses when you're outnumbered 100 to 1.

2% losses over all to take a --Planet-- with an attacking force the size of Rhode Island to Mississippi.... also not that bad.

Neither side kicked the other's butt. The mechinoids 'won' as the other group fled the field but it wasn't a knock down drag out anything. Even outnumbered 100 to one neither side had outrageous losses.



Now.. I've typed alot and tossed alot of numbers out to you, but it proves a few things. 1) The mechinoids were CLEARLY playing around. You don't take a planet with the population of Rhode Island, not seriously. and 2) The ML did well but it's not like they kicked the Mechinoid's butts. They only killed 2% of the attacking force. and 3) The Mechinoids aren't all that great either, as even with 100 to 1 numbers, their playful sadism, only netted 7% losses on the ML side.

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

[Pepsi Jedi]

i might be crazy, but i seem to vaguely recall the ML supposedly held them off for an entire planetary evacuation, *and* maintained over a 100:1 kill ratio or something ridiculous like that. which, if true, would seem to be a very strong indicator of extremely good military on a per soldier basis.

You're only kind of crazy.

Here's the actual text of the encounter we're discussing:

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Which is impressive- nobody is denying that.
These are definitely good soldiers.

My main objection is to the notion that "the CS couldn't last x hours" against the Mechanoids.
My secondary objection is that surviving 19 hours is all that grand of an achievement for a large-scale mega-damage army.

SB2 31
The Mechanoids' emotional state of mind makes it impossible for most to believe that any human could be their equal. Consequently, they underestimate humanoid foes. This can lead to a chain reaction of mounting anger, frustration and foolish behavior on the part of the Mechanoids. They are easily provoked by humans who exhibit cunning, courage, strength of will, ingenuity, and arrogance. This may stimulate any number of potentially dangerous reactions from the aliens, including an unwillingness to surrender or negotiate with humanoids, taking foolish risks, rash behavior and carelessness, striking out in anger or frustration, mindless aggression, berserker rage, suicidal revenge (taking an action that may kill itself as long as the human dies too), or methodical Jack-The-Ripper type stalking, slaughter, and dissection.

To witness the devouring of a planet was both horrifying and amazing. Typically, only planets occupied by humanoids suffered this fate. First the planet would be defoliated. Second, millions of Mechanoids and their robot armies would swarm on the planet to "play with the humans. Play constituted the razing of cities, mass slaughter of the population, and terrible experiments and torture of captives. The third step was the syphoning of the oceans, followed by the removal of the atmosphere. Finally the planet would be cut into smaller sections, swallowed by the gigantic mothership and processed. Obviously, the dissection and consumption of the planet would destroy all of its inhabitants. Thus, the Mechanoids did not need to send troops to the planet's surface unless they faced substantial resistance. They enjoy the murder and mayhem caused by their hands, hence the previous reference to "play with the humans."

This is a process that takes days, if not weeks or months, to accomplish.
The Megaversal Legion's defense of the planet seems to have taken place just at the start of phase 2, the "play" phase.
This phase is not how the Mechanoids destroy planets. It is how they have fun, and soften up defenses.
The planetary defenders, be they the inhabitants (or mercenaries) of Gideon E, or Arctares' World, or Earth, aren't meant to be crushed by this kind of attack, only damaged and distracted long enough for the Mechanoids to physically carve the planet into pieces.
Which doesn't happen in 10 hours, or 19 hours, or 23 hours.
It's a lengthy process.
Claiming that somebody wouldn't last that long is absurd- the Mechanoids COULD crush pretty much any resistance in the Megaverse if they were really trying... but they don't REALLY try to. They play.

A 30+:1 kill ration IS pretty impressive as a general rule, but without knowing the parameters, we can't say exactly HOW impressive it is in this case.
How many kills was it exactly?
What kind?
Does it include Thinmen and Runts? Skimmers? Weevils? Runt Repair Bots? Or just actual Mechanoids?

Let's say that the Megaversal Legion is clever, and their lack of casualties was due more to successful hiding than to surviving combats.
Let's say they get lucky, and they take out a lone Battle Cruiser, through a missile barrage or something.
IF they did, then that's 170,000+ kills right there.

Or let's say that the Mechanoids decide to send in Thinmen and Runts first, a light force of 10 million of them.... but it turns out the Thinmen and Runts are about as good at adapting to unconventional thinking and unexpected events as Skelebots, and they suffer some devastating traps and defeats that decimate their forces.
That's a million casualties right there.

The Mechanoids are a "Kill All You Want- We'll Make More" type enemy.
Achieving a high kill ratio against somebody with their firepower and technology is certainly a feat, but it's not necessarily as impressive as some here are making it out to be.
And it's not necessarily something that the CS or other high-tech powers couldn't accomplish.

Nice!

Something that people seem to be missing here. Note the numbers. (( not KC, but he's the one that actually went to the shelf and quoted the book ))

One hundred to one. 100:1 Ratio of invaders.

Now pause. That's a very very very low number of Mechanoids.

Now take it to the board!!

If the Megaversal Legion is there, with every man woman and cook that they have. They have about 100,000 to 300,000. That's including support. We won't go into the logistics of moving, feeding and upkeeping an army. For simplicity sake. Lets (( for this only)) Assume that every single one of them were combat troops ((ABSURD but I'm making a numbers point here, bare with me)) That means there were only 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 mechinoids there.

Now you're going 'Dude. only one to three million? That not alot where you're from?"

No.. it's not... not for PLANETARY invasion or destruction. Look at Earth. 29.2% of the surface of earth is land. which is actually pretty low when you think about it, but lets go with that number. 29.2% of earth being land. That equals out to 57.5 MILLION square miles.

So that boils down to one to three mechinoids per 58 -square miles-. That's alot of ground to cover. And alot of places to hide from the big bad b

In case you're wondering, and you take out the oceans and Antarctica, the current population density of earth is about 115 per square mile. so you're looking at 6670 people per 1 to 3 mechinoids if they attacked earth today, with those numbers.

"But wait!! read all the wayy to the end!! The ML Evacuated a billion people. Not earth's population" That actually makes it worse. Earth's Current population is about 6,840,507,000 people. So for sake of easy math lets call it 7 billion. 7 times as many people as the ML dealt with. So lets crunch that math. 16.4 people per square mile.

Now... one... to three Mechinoids per 58 square miles. Looking for 16 people per square mile. *shakes head* Makes that populace pretty hard to find I'd think. Lots of people can hide in a square mile. Finding 16 people in a square mile would be pretty hard.

Now I know... population density is nice to throw out as numbers but people don't live like that. They just bunch up. I know. i was just showing you how small the force the Mechinoids launched was.

To put it in more perspective.. the Mechinoids went to 'invade' a PLANET with a force.... roughly the size of the number of people that live in Either Rhode Island ( 1,052,567) To Mississippi. (2,967,297)

Pause and think about that for a moment. They're not so scary when you look at it that way. One mechinoid per 58 square miles.... They're going to invade a ---PLANET--- with numbers equal to the population of Rhode island?? The planetary population out numbered the Mechinoids 333 to one. lol That's if you're assuming the larger number of mechinoids. If you go the other way it could be 1000 to one.

I gotta say they wern't trying all that hard. One on one with the people of Rhode Island? Come on.

Now... as said clearly those billion people lived in population clusters. And the ML was rifting them out. But still, one to three mechinoids for almost 60 square miles? No wonder the ML ripped them up. It's pretty easy to take out three mechinoids per 60 square miles.

And yeah.. the Mechinoids are going to go around in groups too. But they still have an entire planet to scour.


The numbers if you look at them just aren't nearly as impressive as they look at first blush. Sure throwing around 100 to one!! and such. Look deeper.

Their kill ratio was 30 to 1. And they only lost 7% of their people to death.

So the ML lost 7,000 to 21,000. Pretty big numbers.. Kinda.
The Mechinoids only lost 210,000 to 630,000 Much bigger numbers. Much lower percentage.

So at the end of the engagement. The Mechinoids still had 790,000 to 2,370,000 troops kicking around.

If you do that math out, even at 30 to 1 kill ratio.

The ML lost 7% of it's forces
the Mechinoids lost.. a touch over 2% of theirs?

Now.... that we've taken that all the way to the end.

Yeah the ML and the Mechinoids fought.

No it wasn't a 'Serious engagement' from the Mechinoids side. Rhode island vs a planet? even assuming EVERY SINGLE ML was a fighter and you multiplied by the largest number the ML might have.. that's 3 million Mechinoids to take over a planet? Not a serious effort.

Nor was it a war. As other people point out, they were playing.

At the end of the battle (( 19 hours, doesn't a war make. it was a running battle less than a day)) the ML buried 7% of their force. The mechinoids buried (( if they do bury)) a little over 2% of theirs.

The ML didn't BEAT the Mechinoids. They lost almost one in ten men, RUNNING from the Mechinoids as the Mechinoids played around.

7% isn't HORRIBLE losses when you're outnumbered 100 to 1.

2% losses over all to take a --Planet-- with an attacking force the size of Rhode Island to Mississippi.... also not that bad.

Neither side kicked the other's butt. The mechinoids 'won' as the other group fled the field but it wasn't a knock down drag out anything. Even outnumbered 100 to one neither side had outrageous losses.



Now.. I've typed alot and tossed alot of numbers out to you, but it proves a few things. 1) The mechinoids were CLEARLY playing around. You don't take a planet with the population of Rhode Island, not seriously. and 2) The ML did well but it's not like they kicked the Mechinoid's butts. They only killed 2% of the attacking force. and 3) The Mechinoids aren't all that great either, as even with 100 to 1 numbers, their playful sadism, only netted 7% losses on the ML side.

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

I like your analysis but actual population densities and numbers, even for a billion people (unless they were rabid pastoralists), would still be higher than 16 people per square mile.

Still, I agree with you, the Mechanoids were not trying. Doesn't make 30:1 less impressive. Even assuming old style Thinmen and Runts (as MDC) were the main part of the Mechanoid battle line it is an impressive accomplishment... even if it was nowhere near a win.

WildWalker

I basically divided the 115 per square mile at 7 billion that we have (Present day earth) by 7 to get the 16 people above. It was fast and dirty and based off rounding up to 7 billion people on earth.

If you do the math, by math alone, 1,000,000,000 people, in 57.5 million square miles comes out to 17.4. Aliens on that planet per square mile. So i was pretty close. Note that's a planetary average. I said many times that of course they bunch up in population centers. But looking at it from a numerical standpoint, you still have 17 aliens per square mile on the planet, and _One_ to _Three_ Mechinoids per __58__ Square miles.

You still have the Mechinoids trying to take over a PLANET with the population of the smallest state in the US.

[Shark_Force]

the population of rhode island and/or Mississippi doesn't consist entirely of people who could rip apart a main battle tank with their bare hands, have guns that deal damage on the scale of low-yield nuclear weaponry, have enough armor to survive a dozen hits from those guns, or fly around at multiples of the speed of sound with perfect maneuverability, all controlled by direct cybernetic connections to the brain for faster response times.

the mechanoids generally speaking all fit most of those descriptions, with a fairly sizable portion (the wasps) being able to fit all of them.

yeah, compared to planet size (we don't actually know the size of the planet being evacuated either, mind you) it's not a lot of attackers. but it's not exactly like they're nothing either. and you've gotta figure they would have focused on the evacuation centers, on account of when they find the millions of people at those centers (which they will probably be able to do using sensors from orbit) that's going to be where all the toys are.

[Killer Cyborg]

the population of rhode island and/or Mississippi doesn't consist entirely of people who could rip apart a main battle tank with their bare hands, have guns that deal damage on the scale of low-yield nuclear weaponry, have enough armor to survive a dozen hits from those guns, or fly around at multiples of the speed of sound with perfect maneuverability, all controlled by direct cybernetic connections to the brain for faster response times.

the mechanoids generally speaking all fit most of those descriptions, with a fairly sizable portion (the wasps) being able to fit all of them.

Other than flight, so do the Megaversal legion, which was defending the planet.
And unlike the Mechanoids, who were attacking the entire planet, the defenders could congregate in specific key defensive positions: their forces could be clustered, while the mechanoids may have been spread out. If 100:1 was the overall ratio for the planetary battle, the ratio of some of the specific battles may have been much closer to even odds.

yeah, compared to planet size (we don't actually know the size of the planet being evacuated either, mind you) it's not a lot of attackers. but it's not exactly like they're nothing either. and you've gotta figure they would have focused on the evacuation centers, on account of when they find the millions of people at those centers (which they will probably be able to do using sensors from orbit) that's going to be where all the toys are.

Assuming the Megaversal Legion is intelligent, which I think is a safe assumption, they'd do their best to hide the population they were protecting, as much of it as they could, and/or to set up decoys and otherwise use ploys to keep the civilians from being directly attacked.
We don't know if the evacuation centers were above-ground, in open plains, or if they were in deep, secret underground layers. We don't know (as you point out), the planet size.
We don't know much about the battle at all, except that it's an impressive victory.
Exactly HOW impressive- whether it's on the level of "astounding victory that proves the Megaversal Legion are THE premier badasses of every universe" or the level of "pretty fly for a white guy"- we can't really say.

[Lenwen]

I basically divided the 115 per square mile at 7 billion that we have (Present day earth) by 7 to get the 16 people above. It was fast and dirty and based off rounding up to 7 billion people on earth.

If you do the math, by math alone, 1,000,000,000 people, in 57.5 million square miles comes out to 17.4. .

Your flaw in this train of thought .. is that thee entire planet was solid enough for people to stand on every squar mile of it.

You can not do that. You must account for ONLY .. land Which in fact will drive up your 17.4 to real time numbers.

[Lenwen]

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

So war's are not war's .. cause you put %'s on their overall dead military units ?

Wrong.

It was in fact a war. a planetary invasion to be exact. One in which both parties did exactly what they set out to accomplish. One against a military force few in the known megaverse have ever seen .. and one against a planet which was nearly as routine as using their psionic's.

[Lenwen]

Something that people seem to be missing here. Note the numbers.

One hundred to one. 100:1 Ratio of invaders.

If the Megaversal Legion is there, with every man woman and cook that they have. They have about 100,000 to 300,000. That's including support.

That means there were only 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 mechinoids there.

Your flaw in your train of thought here is to assume the Megaversal legion's number's have always been 100 - 300,000 beings and never more .. even tho they were being lead by the dakar .. or recruiting .. or absorbing other military entities into their own military body.

[Killer Cyborg]

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

So war's are not war's .. cause you put %'s on their overall dead military units ?

Wrong.

1. I didn't write those words, so you might want to fix that.
2. Was it a war?
Not by most definitions I can find- they define it as a conflict between nations or states, and the Mechnoids are neither, really.
Can you have a war in 19 hours? I guess, but it's got to be the shortest war in history, or very close to it.
Most people, I believe, think of a "war" as a prolonged conflict, not "we missed a couple hours of sleep so we could stay up and watch the end."

But really, parsing words isn't that important.
Call it what you want, as long as you don't try to call it evidence that the ML is stupendously superior to the CS or any other large military force.

[Killer Cyborg]

I basically divided the 115 per square mile at 7 billion that we have (Present day earth) by 7 to get the 16 people above. It was fast and dirty and based off rounding up to 7 billion people on earth.

If you do the math, by math alone, 1,000,000,000 people, in 57.5 million square miles comes out to 17.4. .

Your flaw in this train of thought .. is that thee entire planet was solid enough for people to stand on every squar mile of it.

You can not do that. You must account for ONLY .. land Which in fact will drive up your 17.4 to real time numbers.

IF the planet is in fact Earth-sized, with the same proportion of ocean.
ON the other hand, it could be a desert-like planet the size of Jupiter.
Or a Pluto-sized planet that's 90% ocean.

But you do bring up one good point- the evacuation centers might have been under water, and thus escaped notice for the first 18 hours of the conflict...

[Shark_Force]

the population of rhode island and/or Mississippi doesn't consist entirely of people who could rip apart a main battle tank with their bare hands, have guns that deal damage on the scale of low-yield nuclear weaponry, have enough armor to survive a dozen hits from those guns, or fly around at multiples of the speed of sound with perfect maneuverability, all controlled by direct cybernetic connections to the brain for faster response times.

the mechanoids generally speaking all fit most of those descriptions, with a fairly sizable portion (the wasps) being able to fit all of them.

Other than flight, so do the Megaversal legion, which was defending the planet.
And unlike the Mechanoids, who were attacking the entire planet, the defenders could congregate in specific key defensive positions: their forces could be clustered, while the mechanoids may have been spread out. If 100:1 was the overall ratio for the planetary battle, the ratio of some of the specific battles may have been much closer to even odds.

yeah, compared to planet size (we don't actually know the size of the planet being evacuated either, mind you) it's not a lot of attackers. but it's not exactly like they're nothing either. and you've gotta figure they would have focused on the evacuation centers, on account of when they find the millions of people at those centers (which they will probably be able to do using sensors from orbit) that's going to be where all the toys are.

Assuming the Megaversal Legion is intelligent, which I think is a safe assumption, they'd do their best to hide the population they were protecting, as much of it as they could, and/or to set up decoys and otherwise use ploys to keep the civilians from being directly attacked.
We don't know if the evacuation centers were above-ground, in open plains, or if they were in deep, secret underground layers. We don't know (as you point out), the planet size.
We don't know much about the battle at all, except that it's an impressive victory.
Exactly HOW impressive- whether it's on the level of "astounding victory that proves the Megaversal Legion are THE premier badasses of every universe" or the level of "pretty fly for a white guy"- we can't really say.

if the megaversal legion has sufficient experience to lead them to screw over a vastly numerically superior force (which undoubtedly included numerous highly mobile enemies who could respond very quickly to distress calls) to the point where they only fight battles that they have the advantage in, that is still a factor in terms of how good the soldiers are. their experience is a key part of why that sort of thing would be possible; that level of being able to read your enemy like a book and repeatedly ambush them over and over when they literally have 100 times as many forces as you and when you are defending fixed locations is going to make them effective against any other opponent as well. taking that out of the equation is absurd, because it is very much so a part of the equation.

the megaversal legion is largely comprised of people who have so much combat experience that even the most combat-hardened, grizzled veterans on earth are like green recruits going into their first day of boot camp/officer training in comparison. i don't see any plausible way to separate that from the megaversal legion, and as such, it *is* a factor in just how badass the ML is.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I basically divided the 115 per square mile at 7 billion that we have (Present day earth) by 7 to get the 16 people above. It was fast and dirty and based off rounding up to 7 billion people on earth.

If you do the math, by math alone, 1,000,000,000 people, in 57.5 million square miles comes out to 17.4. .

Your flaw in this train of thought .. is that thee entire planet was solid enough for people to stand on every square mile of it.

You can not do that. You must account for ONLY .. land Which in fact will drive up your 17.4 to real time numbers.

Nope. No flaw there. It's an average, and it took out the two thirds of the planet that was water. You can get nit picky and go "There was a tree there" if you want, but it doesn't change the square miles or the math. Nice try at obfuscation though. For all we know the race could have been aquatic or simi aquatic and the numbers could be three times.. SMALLER.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

So war's are not war's .. cause you put %'s on their overall dead military units ?

Wrong.

It was in fact a war. a planetary invasion to be exact. One in which both parties did exactly what they set out to accomplish. One against a military force few in the known megaverse have ever seen .. and one against a planet which was nearly as routine as using their psionic's.

One day of fighting as you run away isn't a war.

The fact that that small a percentage of people died on each side, says it wasn't a war. It was barely a fight. The numbers back that up. It was at best a running skirmish that lasted well under a day.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Something that people seem to be missing here. Note the numbers.

One hundred to one. 100:1 Ratio of invaders.

If the Megaversal Legion is there, with every man woman and cook that they have. They have about 100,000 to 300,000. That's including support.

That means there were only 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 mechinoids there.

Your flaw in your train of thought here is to assume the Megaversal legion's number's have always been 100 - 300,000 beings and never more .. even tho they were being lead by the dakar .. or recruiting .. or absorbing other military entities into their own military body.

Your flaw is to presume things not in evidence. I used the absolute top numbers proposed for them. You can go "oh there may have been more! You don't know!!" Well neither do you. They may have been pink polkadotted but there's nothing in the books to indicate that. Nothing at all. Just like there's nothing to indicate that thhey had MORE troops, before they broke free of their masters and recruited for FORTY YEARS.

I purposefully used the larger of the numbers possible. Even though if you read the book,they always keep 50,000 to 100,000 back on earth, so the -MOST- that would have been deployed would have been 250,000 And that's if they bunched everyone up there. Lenwen the numbers back it up when you crunch them. Even if they deployed every single general, officer, pilot, private and COOK to the fight, it was still a small number and the losses on both sides were tiny.

It was a skirmish that lasted less than a day. Not that big a deal.

[Nightmask]

the population of rhode island and/or Mississippi doesn't consist entirely of people who could rip apart a main battle tank with their bare hands, have guns that deal damage on the scale of low-yield nuclear weaponry, have enough armor to survive a dozen hits from those guns, or fly around at multiples of the speed of sound with perfect maneuverability, all controlled by direct cybernetic connections to the brain for faster response times.

the mechanoids generally speaking all fit most of those descriptions, with a fairly sizable portion (the wasps) being able to fit all of them.

Other than flight, so do the Megaversal legion, which was defending the planet.
And unlike the Mechanoids, who were attacking the entire planet, the defenders could congregate in specific key defensive positions: their forces could be clustered, while the mechanoids may have been spread out. If 100:1 was the overall ratio for the planetary battle, the ratio of some of the specific battles may have been much closer to even odds.

yeah, compared to planet size (we don't actually know the size of the planet being evacuated either, mind you) it's not a lot of attackers. but it's not exactly like they're nothing either. and you've gotta figure they would have focused on the evacuation centers, on account of when they find the millions of people at those centers (which they will probably be able to do using sensors from orbit) that's going to be where all the toys are.

Assuming the Megaversal Legion is intelligent, which I think is a safe assumption, they'd do their best to hide the population they were protecting, as much of it as they could, and/or to set up decoys and otherwise use ploys to keep the civilians from being directly attacked.
We don't know if the evacuation centers were above-ground, in open plains, or if they were in deep, secret underground layers. We don't know (as you point out), the planet size.
We don't know much about the battle at all, except that it's an impressive victory.
Exactly HOW impressive- whether it's on the level of "astounding victory that proves the Megaversal Legion are THE premier badasses of every universe" or the level of "pretty fly for a white guy"- we can't really say.

if the megaversal legion has sufficient experience to lead them to screw over a vastly numerically superior force (which undoubtedly included numerous highly mobile enemies who could respond very quickly to distress calls) to the point where they only fight battles that they have the advantage in, that is still a factor in terms of how good the soldiers are. their experience is a key part of why that sort of thing would be possible; that level of being able to read your enemy like a book and repeatedly ambush them over and over when they literally have 100 times as many forces as you and when you are defending fixed locations is going to make them effective against any other opponent as well. taking that out of the equation is absurd, because it is very much so a part of the equation.

the megaversal legion is largely comprised of people who have so much combat experience that even the most combat-hardened, grizzled veterans on earth are like green recruits going into their first day of boot camp/officer training in comparison. i don't see any plausible way to separate that from the megaversal legion, and as such, it *is* a factor in just how badass the ML is.

Definitely this!

[Killer Cyborg]

the population of rhode island and/or Mississippi doesn't consist entirely of people who could rip apart a main battle tank with their bare hands, have guns that deal damage on the scale of low-yield nuclear weaponry, have enough armor to survive a dozen hits from those guns, or fly around at multiples of the speed of sound with perfect maneuverability, all controlled by direct cybernetic connections to the brain for faster response times.

the mechanoids generally speaking all fit most of those descriptions, with a fairly sizable portion (the wasps) being able to fit all of them.

Other than flight, so do the Megaversal legion, which was defending the planet.
And unlike the Mechanoids, who were attacking the entire planet, the defenders could congregate in specific key defensive positions: their forces could be clustered, while the mechanoids may have been spread out. If 100:1 was the overall ratio for the planetary battle, the ratio of some of the specific battles may have been much closer to even odds.

yeah, compared to planet size (we don't actually know the size of the planet being evacuated either, mind you) it's not a lot of attackers. but it's not exactly like they're nothing either. and you've gotta figure they would have focused on the evacuation centers, on account of when they find the millions of people at those centers (which they will probably be able to do using sensors from orbit) that's going to be where all the toys are.

Assuming the Megaversal Legion is intelligent, which I think is a safe assumption, they'd do their best to hide the population they were protecting, as much of it as they could, and/or to set up decoys and otherwise use ploys to keep the civilians from being directly attacked.
We don't know if the evacuation centers were above-ground, in open plains, or if they were in deep, secret underground layers. We don't know (as you point out), the planet size.
We don't know much about the battle at all, except that it's an impressive victory.
Exactly HOW impressive- whether it's on the level of "astounding victory that proves the Megaversal Legion are THE premier badasses of every universe" or the level of "pretty fly for a white guy"- we can't really say.

if the megaversal legion has sufficient experience to lead them to screw over a vastly numerically superior force (which undoubtedly included numerous highly mobile enemies who could respond very quickly to distress calls) to the point where they only fight battles that they have the advantage in, that is still a factor in terms of how good the soldiers are.

Again, nobody said that they're NOT good soldiers.

their experience is a key part of why that sort of thing would be possible; that level of being able to read your enemy like a book and repeatedly ambush them over and over when they literally have 100 times as many forces as you and when you are defending fixed locations is going to make them effective against any other opponent as well. taking that out of the equation is absurd, because it is very much so a part of the equation.

I was thinking more like spreading your forces in several decoy points that are heavily defended, while the bulk of the population is evacuated elsewhere.

You're not going to get too many "repeated ambushes" over the course of 19 hours.

the megaversal legion is largely comprised of people who have so much combat experience that even the most combat-hardened, grizzled veterans on earth are like green recruits going into their first day of boot camp/officer training in comparison.

Book/page/passage?

[Killer Cyborg]

Kind of missing the part that the damage they can take and inflict is generally greater for nearly all units in the mechanoid army compared to nearly all armies on Rifts Earth including the CS.

Not at all.
You're kind of missing the way the Mechanoids operate.
Until you give me some kind of indication that you've even read the books, your view doesn't matter here.

I have read this whole thread and argument and I am with you KC, I want the sources Nightmask are using for his opinion. You and even Lenwen Have sited books and pages for your opinions and thoughts, but not Nightmask.
I think any force taking on the Full brunt Mechanoids would lose over time, but they aren't military minds, they are monsters that toy with their enemies like a cat plays with a mouse. ML's evac of the planet is an impressive feat but too many X factors are left out to come to the conclusion that "Since they helt out 19 hours then Earth would fall faster" is total bunk and unsupported claim. How do the mechanoids adapt to magic, dragons, elementals, A.I., demon, deevils, gods, and other psionics that are more powerful then them? Rifts as stands has too many X factors for anyone person to make a time chart for mechanoid victory.

Exactly.

[Shark_Force]

Book/page/passage?

it's right in the main description. the megaversal trooper and the ojahee troops are all quite old, and have been fighting since they were in their late teens or early 20s in most cases. they're still alive because of dakhir technology including iirc fully body and brain replacements (so far as i can tell, the implication is that the dakhir can basically store your mind digitally and transfer it to another brain).

of course, not every member is, but there's still a lot of them, even most of them as i recall. after all, the main OCCs and RCCs in the legion are the original human and ojahee members.

[Killer Cyborg]

Book/page/passage?

it's right in the main description.

Not really what I asked for.

[Lenwen]

So play up the fight if you like, but it wasn't a war.. and with only 7% loss on one side and 2% loss on the other, it wasn't even that horrible a battle.

So war's are not war's .. cause you put %'s on their overall dead military units ?

Wrong.

It was in fact a war. a planetary invasion to be exact. One in which both parties did exactly what they set out to accomplish. One against a military force few in the known megaverse have ever seen .. and one against a planet which was nearly as routine as using their psionic's.

One day of fighting as you run away isn't a war.

The fact that that small a percentage of people died on each side, says it wasn't a war. It was barely a fight. The numbers back that up. It was at best a running skirmish that lasted well under a day.

So then your telling me that if Atlantis or the Mechanoids came in an utterly destroyed the Coalition in 10 hrs (if that) it would not be a war but a skirmish ?

I find that hard to understand .. but if you say so lmao