Tolkeen - Evil?

[Nightmask]

"the exception that proves the rule"

I've heard this before, but it makes no sense. How does a counter-example prove the rule the that it counters?

That's like saying "not A, therefore A".

--flatline

I've never understood that myself, you can't prove something with something that's contrary to it.

[flatline]

"the exception that proves the rule"

I've heard this before, but it makes no sense. How does a counter-example prove the rule the that it counters?

That's like saying "not A, therefore A".

--flatline

I've never understood that myself, you can't prove something with something that's contrary to it.

Turns out that Wikipedia has an article on exactly that phrase. The original intent, in Latin, was that if an explicit exclusion is given to a rule, that there are no further exclusions. Now that I know this, I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase correctly.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

"the exception that proves the rule"

I've heard this before, but it makes no sense. How does a counter-example prove the rule the that it counters?

That's like saying "not A, therefore A".

--flatline

I've never understood that myself, you can't prove something with something that's contrary to it.

Turns out that Wikipedia has an article on exactly that phrase. The original intent, in Latin, was that if an explicit exclusion is given to a rule, that there are no further exclusions. Now that I know this, I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase correctly.

--flatline

Given people don't know the actual intent of it I'm not surprised, it always seems to be used by people as if exceptions are proof of the original rule/thing that's being discussed rather than what they are: things that disprove what's under discussion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Turns out that Wikipedia has an article on exactly that phrase. The original intent, in Latin, was that if an explicit exclusion is given to a rule, that there are no further exclusions. Now that I know this, I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase correctly.

--flatline

Given people don't know the actual intent of it I'm not surprised, it always seems to be used by people as if exceptions are proof of the original rule/thing that's being discussed rather than what they are: things that disprove what's under discussion.

I think it's more that, for a lot of people, anything you say is taken as proof of their pre-existing view.

A: "Black and white are the same thing."
B: "Black and white are different things- they're opposites."
A: "Exactly! My point is proven!!"

[Lenwen]

Turns out that Wikipedia has an article on exactly that phrase. The original intent, in Latin, was that if an explicit exclusion is given to a rule, that there are no further exclusions. Now that I know this, I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase correctly.

--flatline

Given people don't know the actual intent of it I'm not surprised, it always seems to be used by people as if exceptions are proof of the original rule/thing that's being discussed rather than what they are: things that disprove what's under discussion.

I think it's more that, for a lot of people, anything you say is taken as proof of their pre-existing view.

A: "Black and white are the same thing."
B: "Black and white are different things- they're opposites."
A: "Exactly! My point is proven!!"

When I used the phrase, it was to show it was an NPC (the deevilman sax player).. and as we all know in game NPC's are in fact not held to the same standards as the PC's ..

Ergo .. the phrase is apt .. for exactly what I intended it to be used for.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Turns out that Wikipedia has an article on exactly that phrase. The original intent, in Latin, was that if an explicit exclusion is given to a rule, that there are no further exclusions. Now that I know this, I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase correctly.

--flatline

Given people don't know the actual intent of it I'm not surprised, it always seems to be used by people as if exceptions are proof of the original rule/thing that's being discussed rather than what they are: things that disprove what's under discussion.

I think it's more that, for a lot of people, anything you say is taken as proof of their pre-existing view.

A: "Black and white are the same thing."
B: "Black and white are different things- they're opposites."
A: "Exactly! My point is proven!!"

When I used the phrase, it was to show it was an NPC (the deevilman sax player).. and as we all know in game NPC's are in fact not held to the same standards as the PC's ..

Ergo .. the phrase is apt .. for exactly what I intended it to be used for.

Except when the exception isn't an "Exception" but instead just a different way to go with what ever 'topic' is at hand.

In this case they've shown a number of examples of Demons that are not 'forced' to be evil. These show that it's a choice in that.

Are Demons highly more like to be evil, and supernatural evil at that? Yes. Doesn't mean they all have to be. Just like humans don't HAVE to be good.

[Lenwen]

And yet books(China 2, Armageddon Unlimited, Rifter 41 and your leaving out the fact selfish is not evil) prove you wrong not right, ironic don't you think. Repetitive demons, and demon heros. Sorry Lenwen but you can't have it two ways either demons and the leaders are just as evil given alignments or your stance that somehow a Demon is less evil then... a human..

Two points of contention ..

1) - No Rifter is canon (unless explicitly stated) .. especially if its not even in the same dimension .. your attempting to use said rifter material .. to prove a canon point .. Your counter is broken before you ever thought it up in that case.

2) - China 2 - The enllightened demon is not given the choice .. they are "enslaved" .. and then they are given the choice .. die .. or change. Not a choice ..

[barna10]

Also ..

As per hades / Dyval dimension books .. Demons have no choice in thier alignments , ergo .. they have no choice in being good .. what so ever ..

Ergo .. they have no choice .. as compared to Humans .. who have the "choice" as to wether or not be good or bad ..

Which makes an evil human .. TWICE .. as evil as a demon .. because of the choice to be so ..

China two and official sources in the rifter refute this, it is a false claim. You said it best if alignment is say all end all their is no variant in their degree of evil. Ergo one can not be more evil then the other.

It's important to remember that the "demons" (actually Oni) in China ARE NOT the same types of demons originating in Hades or Dyval. They share a westernized name, but they are different, vastly different. The western demons are evil incarnate (and I would argue AS evil as an evil human, but no more and no less), the Oni are really just a catch all category for monsters in eastern mythology (specifically Japanese).

A common theme in eastern mythology is the redemption of evil which is NOT a theme in western mythology. Evil is not black and white in the eastern world, it is in the western world. This is why I wish more perspectives were present in Rifts; the world isn't black and white.

The evilness of a person or act is an age-old philosophical debate.

Serial Killer = Evil but a person that kills in self defense = not evil.

Robbery = evil but stealing food because you are starving = not evil.

Being the aggressor in war = evil, being the defender = not evil, but apparently being defender and using demons shifts you back to evil.

One of my favorite philosophical arguments is "is it more good to do an act you want to do or one one you don't want to do?" For instance, if you walk around town looking for good deeds to do, are your actions more or less good than someone that happens to come across a burning building and jumps in to save someone? I vote for the later being more good (there is no right answer, it's philosophy!)

So my vote is that if you think summoning demons is evil, then Tolkeen was evil, but this is not an absolute, it is an opinion. IMO the CS was more evil than Tolkeen because they were the aggressors. Self-defense is not an evil act, whether you had the opportunity to run or not.

If someone breaks into your house, you are allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself and your property, even if the one breaking in does not have a weapon and even if they don't threaten you! (modern law, check out the law in your area. I just did research on this while researching the Zimmerman case). Are you evil for defending yourself legally? Possibly Is the one breaking evil for breaking the law? Possibly

Now, if someone broke into your house and you summoned a demon to deal with the robber, is your act of self-defense more or less evil?

(Before you respond, if you have never taken a philosophy class, this post may seem crazy, stupid, argumentative, etc. However, this is the type of fun questions you get to tackle in a philosophy class! Seriously, if you haven't taken a philosophy class, DO IT!)

[Lenwen]

Rifter 41 is official and it is a Baal-rog that is repenting not an Oni which is a Japanese demon. Edit it is Rifter 40 not 41.

Which page shows the Bal-rog being used ? China or the rifter ?

[Prysus]

Rifter 41 is official and it is a Baal-rog that is repenting not an Oni which is a Japanese demon. Edit it is Rifter 40 not 41.

Which page shows the Bal-rog being used ? China or the rifter ?

Greetings and Salutations. Rifter #40, page 126, Garamone. This is from the "Official" source material cut from RDB10: Hades.

Then of course, there's also the Heroic Hellion from Armageddon Unlimited, page 32. It even mentions demons such as the Baal-Rog, Gallu Bull, Shedim, Gargoyle, etc.

Those are just some "official" sources. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Lenwen]

Rifter 41 is official and it is a Baal-rog that is repenting not an Oni which is a Japanese demon. Edit it is Rifter 40 not 41.

Which page shows the Bal-rog being used ? China or the rifter ?

Greetings and Salutations. Rifter #40, page 126, Garamone. This is from the "Official" source material cut from RDB10: Hades.

Then of course, there's also the Heroic Hellion from Armageddon Unlimited, page 32. It even mentions demons such as the Baal-Rog, Gallu Bull, Shedim, Gargoyle, etc.

Those are just some "official" sources. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I can not counter because I do not have that rifter. Once I get it I will certainly read it an post my opinion.

[barna10]

Rifter 41 is official and it is a Baal-rog that is repenting not an Oni which is a Japanese demon. Edit it is Rifter 40 not 41.

Noted.

My comments were based on "real-world" demons from various mythologies, religions, etc. I assumed the ones in-game were designed along those lines, obviously incorrectly.

That being said, I think it would be educational for many posters here to re-read the descriptions of the demons in the various rulebooks. They are not ALWAYS evil! (edit: this would be more profound if I had posted it BEFORE everyone above that pointed similar info out! Sorry for not refreshing)

Baal-Rog
10% Anarchist

Gallu, Demon Bull
6% Anarchist, 2% Unprincipled

Jinn
20% Anarchist

Rakshasha
Any evil or selfish

Shedim
10% Anarchist

Aquatics
Anarchist or any evil

Alu Demon Hound
20% Anarchist

Also, a Shifter should be able to be picky when summoning a demon. It says under Shifter in RUE that the Shifter will have an easier time controlling the demon if they share an alignment. Now, since the demons are not necessarily evil, the acts of summoning, controlling, and utilizing demons should not always be viewed as an evil act. IMO, like all magic, it's how it is used that determines if is Black or White magic, good or evil.

So, if you want to argue that the Tolkeen mages summoned evil demons and had them do evil things, fine, no argument here, but blanket statements like ALL (in-game) demons are evil or that EVERY mage that summons a demon is evil, are false.

Regarding the Daemonix, they weren't "summoned". They were freed from some sort of dimensional prison and asked to join the fight. They were told to limit their fighting to the "Coalition Army and other Enemies of the Kingdom of Magic" (Coalition Wars 2, pg 87). The book later says that the Daemonix were totally loyal to Tolkeen. So, if they are "totally loyal" and attack only military targets, how are they any different than another soldier that is Miscreant or Diabolic? Aren't there MANY CS that are Miscreant or Diabolic?

For that matter, how many Mercs are Miscreant or Diabolic? Is an army that employs these human debris inherently evil? I'd say yes! All Coalition soldiers are taught that they are ".. noble warriors asked to do terrible things.." and "Compassion is quick end to one's enemies". Also, the leaders of the Coalition are EVIL to the core (Diabolic and Aberrant).

I present as proof of the evil plans of the Coalition the Plans of War! section of the Rifts Sourcebook. This section details how Prosek is using the "fight for humanity" as a front for his expansionist agenda that has no NOBLE or GOOD aims. The fact that humanity might benefit from the expansion of the Coalition is merely a fringe benefit. The ultimate goal is power for power's sake. Evil = yes!

[Lenwen]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

[flatline]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

Is that the result of their culture? Or are they wired in such a way for it to be impossible?

Please give references.

--flatline

[SAMASzero]

Not only did the CS start the fight, but in using nukes right off the bat they proved they are as evil as is possible to become

But no nukes landed. *Shrugs* No harm no foul right? lol
And the thing is, the CS used nukes because they thought that Tolkeen was a city of evil magic using Demon loving mages.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndd........ *looks at Tolkeen* A city full of Evil Magic using Demon lovin' Mages....

When the CS launched the nukes .. Absolutely not .. Tolkeen was not a City of evil magic using Demon loving mages ..

So your wrong.

Yes, you really have to wonder how 'well we didn't manage to kill any of them with our weapons of mass destruction' translates into 'we aren't evil because no one actually died from our bombs'.

was the USA evil for droping the bomb on japan?

Yes, but only necessarily so. That was a situation where every option as far as I (or Truman, for that matter) could see was either bad or prohibitively costly.

But really, the situation with WWII has nothing to do with the Siege on Tolkeen except for the fact that nukes were involved.

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

Is that the result of their culture? Or are they wired in such a way for it to be impossible?

Please give references.

--flatline

I don't know how much of Demon Nature is Innate, but Hades: Pits of Hell definitely shows a cultural influence that, if not actively teaching Evil, is certainly reinforcing it.

[Hystrix]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

Exept for those weve shown, right? Exept for the Saxman, those in Armeggeddon Unlimited, and Rifts China 2... and those that choose to be anarchist.

[Lenwen]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

Exept for those weve shown, right? Exept for the Saxman, those in Armeggeddon Unlimited, and Rifts China 2... and those that choose to be anarchist.

Again, an NPC does not follow the static rules of the classes as per formant (Saxman) ergo .. an NPC can not be used to show proof of anything other then NPC's do not follow the standard model ..

And Armeggeddon Unlimited is not Rifts earth .. (Again, can not use 1 system's rules to dictate entirely another setting's ..anything ..)

Rifts China 2, does not state anything other then the Chinese demons may be able to .. again its "FORCED" .. upon them threw slavery .. not really a choice there either ..

[barna10]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

The alignment rules for the demons in Hades/Dyval are no different than in any other book. I checked all the demons that were listed above and their alignment restrictions are the same as above. While there are no "good" demons, there are still plenty of selfish ones. So again, the act of summoning a demon is not necessarily evil!

[Nightmask]

Again, no demon in hades / dyval has a choice to be good..

The alignment rules for the demons in Hades/Dyval are no different than in any other book. I checked all the demons that were listed above and their alignment restrictions are the same as above. While there are no "good" demons, there are still plenty of selfish ones. So again, the act of summoning a demon is not necessarily evil!

Summoning a demon shouldn't be seen as inherently evil no matter what it's alignment, since you're binding it to your will. Being very careful with the orders and not overusing it and you could remain good.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Rifter 41 is official and it is a Baal-rog that is repenting not an Oni which is a Japanese demon. Edit it is Rifter 40 not 41.

Noted.

My comments were based on "real-world" demons from various mythologies, religions, etc. I assumed the ones in-game were designed along those lines, obviously incorrectly.

That being said, I think it would be educational for many posters here to re-read the descriptions of the demons in the various rulebooks. They are not ALWAYS evil! (edit: this would be more profound if I had posted it BEFORE everyone above that pointed similar info out! Sorry for not refreshing)

Baal-Rog
10% Anarchist

Gallu, Demon Bull
6% Anarchist, 2% Unprincipled

Jinn
20% Anarchist

Rakshasha
Any evil or selfish

Shedim
10% Anarchist

Aquatics
Anarchist or any evil

Alu Demon Hound
20% Anarchist

Also, a Shifter should be able to be picky when summoning a demon. It says under Shifter in RUE that the Shifter will have an easier time controlling the demon if they share an alignment. Now, since the demons are not necessarily evil, the acts of summoning, controlling, and utilizing demons should not always be viewed as an evil act. IMO, like all magic, it's how it is used that determines if is Black or White magic, good or evil.

So, if you want to argue that the Tolkeen mages summoned evil demons and had them do evil things, fine, no argument here, but blanket statements like ALL (in-game) demons are evil or that EVERY mage that summons a demon is evil, are false.

Regarding the Daemonix, they weren't "summoned". They were freed from some sort of dimensional prison and asked to join the fight. They were told to limit their fighting to the "Coalition Army and other Enemies of the Kingdom of Magic" (Coalition Wars 2, pg 87). The book later says that the Daemonix were totally loyal to Tolkeen. So, if they are "totally loyal" and attack only military targets, how are they any different than another soldier that is Miscreant or Diabolic? Aren't there MANY CS that are Miscreant or Diabolic?

For that matter, how many Mercs are Miscreant or Diabolic? Is an army that employs these human debris inherently evil? I'd say yes! All Coalition soldiers are taught that they are ".. noble warriors asked to do terrible things.." and "Compassion is quick end to one's enemies". Also, the leaders of the Coalition are EVIL to the core (Diabolic and Aberrant).

I present as proof of the evil plans of the Coalition the Plans of War! section of the Rifts Sourcebook. This section details how Prosek is using the "fight for humanity" as a front for his expansionist agenda that has no NOBLE or GOOD aims. The fact that humanity might benefit from the expansion of the Coalition is merely a fringe benefit. The ultimate goal is power for power's sake. Evil = yes!

and you point is what?

[barna10]

and you point is what?

That the CS is probably the greatest source of evil in NA and that Tolkeen wasn't really all that evil in comparison. Also, that KS and crew have done a great job including depth in what could be cardboard cutouts, ie Demons.

[Nether]

I'm not up on all 6 pages but a few of my views,

1)Tolkeen did not want a war and were defending thier homes.
Sure they could have moved, but it is a common thing even in real life where you will defend your home and land. It is yours and to give into "bullies" is to give up your freedom. eg. New Orleans, in rl it is a city that sits below sea level, sinks 3 ft a year, already had a catastrophe, yet most of the people living there chose to stay. It is thier home, even when they know it is a doomed city. This isnt a war example but it shows people convictions to thier home/land even in dire circumstances. The same with people that refuse to leave in hurricane seasons, and sometimes they die because of it.

2)The CS fired nukes! It is crazy to defend a nation that fires nukes right off. I saw a post referencing the US nuking Japan, .. well that is a huge difference! Why, because they dropped 2 nukes and then waited for surrender. The US did not want to create mass genocide by completely turning Japan into a wasteland of radioactive cockroaches.

In rl nukes are defensive weapons, as in dont attack us cause we have nukes dumb ass. Then the CSN also states that the CS would only ever use them if they felt the entire CS was at threat which clearly wasnt the case here.

Not to mention that the CS wasnt interested in a conventional war with Tolkeen, as in they did not want them to surrender, they wanted to slaughter all of them. Genocide or actions to commit genocide are far far far worse than than conventional war for land.

3)Tolkeen summoned demons to fight for it. Well not the smartest move considering the forces they got ended up causing them to lose others in their army so not much of a gain there. But, when faced with overwhelming odds and the desire to survive, it can drive you to do some steep things. So the choice is lose a bit of your soul or lose your lives.

4)The CS recruiting all of the burbs peeps and mercenaries at the time of war. Well it is pretty sh*tty when the nation that you signed up to protect cant be bothered to throw thier experienced regular troops into the fight. It would be different if it was the CS regular professional troops mixed with the burb recruits which would be fine, but it wasnts, which also means that they know casualties are going to be higher because of such lack of experience.

The alignment of the demon/devil seems to be a minor point as they were summoned as troops, not the ideal troops as they do some things that are down right not very beneficial to your army, like eating your own, performing actions that a decent tolkeen trooper could not find acceptable.

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid. Some will do anything to survive and this is such a case.

So no i dont think Tolkeen is evil, some and i say some of the leadership is evil, but i believe some of them were against the idea as well. That parellel does not really exist in the CS at its current i am thinking.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

[Lenwen]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

but they were and they did the evil route too so TOLKEEN IS EVIL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not up on all 6 pages but a few of my views,

1)Tolkeen did not want a war and were defending thier homes.
Sure they could have moved, but it is a common thing even in real life where you will defend your home and land. It is yours and to give into "bullies" is to give up your freedom. eg. New Orleans, in rl it is a city that sits below sea level, sinks 3 ft a year, already had a catastrophe, yet most of the people living there chose to stay. It is thier home, even when they know it is a doomed city. This isnt a war example but it shows people convictions to thier home/land even in dire circumstances. The same with people that refuse to leave in hurricane seasons, and sometimes they die because of it.

2)The CS fired nukes! It is crazy to defend a nation that fires nukes right off. I saw a post referencing the US nuking Japan, .. well that is a huge difference! Why, because they dropped 2 nukes and then waited for surrender. The US did not want to create mass genocide by completely turning Japan into a wasteland of radioactive cockroaches.

In rl nukes are defensive weapons, as in dont attack us cause we have nukes dumb ass. Then the CSN also states that the CS would only ever use them if they felt the entire CS was at threat which clearly wasnt the case here.

Not to mention that the CS wasnt interested in a conventional war with Tolkeen, as in they did not want them to surrender, they wanted to slaughter all of them. Genocide or actions to commit genocide are far far far worse than than conventional war for land.

3)Tolkeen summoned demons to fight for it. Well not the smartest move considering the forces they got ended up causing them to lose others in their army so not much of a gain there. But, when faced with overwhelming odds and the desire to survive, it can drive you to do some steep things. So the choice is lose a bit of your soul or lose your lives.

4)The CS recruiting all of the burbs peeps and mercenaries at the time of war. Well it is pretty sh*tty when the nation that you signed up to protect cant be bothered to throw thier experienced regular troops into the fight. It would be different if it was the CS regular professional troops mixed with the burb recruits which would be fine, but it wasnts, which also means that they know casualties are going to be higher because of such lack of experience.

The alignment of the demon/devil seems to be a minor point as they were summoned as troops, not the ideal troops as they do some things that are down right not very beneficial to your army, like eating your own, performing actions that a decent tolkeen trooper could not find acceptable.

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid. Some will do anything to survive and this is such a case.

So no i dont think Tolkeen is evil, some and i say some of the leadership is evil, but i believe some of them were against the idea as well. That parellel does not really exist in the CS at its current i am thinking.

Not being snarky at all but pretty much every one of your points has been addressed in the thread. I'd suggest you actually go back and read it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though. Their ability to field them with he techno wizard equipment shows that their deal had been made prior and they'd been working a long time to equip the demon army (( which being burles artwork were pretty fugly fishy lumps that needed techno wizard legs and stuff))

It's easy to go "It was a reactionary move!!" but.. it wasn't. The useage of demons was premeditated, put into play, and actually needed time to rift them in and gear them up to make viable.

The Demon armies were there prior to the full engagement of war. They didn't appear whole cloth in Tolkeen's hour of need.

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

[Lenwen]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though.

But not prior .. to the Coalition Surrounded them .. an already cut them off from the world ..

Which btw .. was in 105 PA. The deal Tolkeen made with the Daemonix was not till AFTER .. 105 Pa.

Ergo .. had not the Coalition clearly showed Tolkeen had no choice to leave, they had no choice but BATTLE .. as well .. and with them being all but cut off from the world ment get some type of army up .. asap..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though.

But not prior .. to the Coalition Surrounded them .. an already cut them off from the world ..

Which btw .. was in 105 PA. The deal Tolkeen made with the Daemonix was not till AFTER .. 105 Pa.

Ergo .. had not the Coalition clearly showed Tolkeen had no choice to leave, they had no choice but BATTLE .. as well .. and with them being all but cut off from the world ment get some type of army up .. asap..

tolkeen made the choice by standing and fightning the coalition, instead of putting resorces instead finding another spot for the city.

[Pepsi Jedi]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though.

But not prior .. to the Coalition Surrounded them .. an already cut them off from the world ..

Which btw .. was in 105 PA. The deal Tolkeen made with the Daemonix was not till AFTER .. 105 Pa.

Ergo .. had not the Coalition clearly showed Tolkeen had no choice to leave, they had no choice but BATTLE .. as well .. and with them being all but cut off from the world ment get some type of army up .. asap..

1. look up the defintion of Ergo. It doesn't mean "Because lenwen thinks so" you're not using the word right.

2. Your entire post is based on a flawed perception you have that is not supported by the books. So there's no point talking to you. You're assuming things not stated in the books then basing your argument on them as if they were a given and support your further arguments. Instead of backing up your point, it makes the overall point invalid because it's all based on Lenwen conjecture.

[Lenwen]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though.

But not prior .. to the Coalition Surrounded them .. an already cut them off from the world ..

Which btw .. was in 105 PA. The deal Tolkeen made with the Daemonix was not till AFTER .. 105 Pa.

Ergo .. had not the Coalition clearly showed Tolkeen had no choice to leave, they had no choice but BATTLE .. as well .. and with them being all but cut off from the world ment get some type of army up .. asap..

1. look up the defintion of Ergo. It doesn't mean "Because lenwen thinks so" you're not using the word right.

Happily .. here you go

Ergo means "therefore" or "consequently."

2. Your entire post is based on a flawed perception you have that is not supported by the books. So there's no point talking to you. You're assuming things not stated in the books then basing your argument on them as if they were a given and support your further arguments. Instead of backing up your point, it makes the overall point invalid because it's all based on Lenwen conjecture.

Actually I cited book / page number showing that the Coalition was in fact doing just that .. and placing troops against tolkeens boarders as early as 105 PA.

If this busts your whole "Tolkeen had a choice to fight or run" arguement .. for that I am sorry for actually reading more in on the subject an there for having a better understanding of the cited work I have shown.

[Nightmask]

so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though.

But not prior .. to the Coalition Surrounded them .. an already cut them off from the world ..

Which btw .. was in 105 PA. The deal Tolkeen made with the Daemonix was not till AFTER .. 105 Pa.

Ergo .. had not the Coalition clearly showed Tolkeen had no choice to leave, they had no choice but BATTLE .. as well .. and with them being all but cut off from the world ment get some type of army up .. asap..

tolkeen made the choice by standing and fightning the coalition, instead of putting resorces instead finding another spot for the city.

Right, because it's sooooo easy to relocate an entire city's population particularly on a planet still suffering a variety of monstrous threats like the CS so where is this magically better place you insist they could have moved the entire population to? Not just the population but the infrastructure required to feed, cloth, shelter, and cover all the needs of life because as much as you pretend that's not an issue by blithely declaring 'they can just move' those are very much issues. An episode of Stargate even dealt with the issue when an ally state discovered their planet was on the way to exploding in about a week and they had to point out what a practical impossibility it was to move a significant amount of population along with the required materials so that they only outlive their world by a few weeks but end up dead from starvation or exposure.

[Lenwen]

Your stargate example is no good, Tolkeen had years to plan an evacuation, they spent that time building up arms and preparing for war, with no back up plans no escape routes just war.

There can be no escape routs .. if the city was already being "contained" from a Coalition military..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ergo means "therefore" or "consequently."

2. Your entire post is based on a flawed perception you have that is not supported by the books. So there's no point talking to you. You're assuming things not stated in the books then basing your argument on them as if they were a given and support your further arguments. Instead of backing up your point, it makes the overall point invalid because it's all based on Lenwen conjecture.

Actually I cited book / page number showing that the Coalition was in fact doing just that .. and placing troops against tolkeens boarders as early as 105 PA.

If this busts your whole "Tolkeen had a choice to fight or run" arguement .. for that I am sorry for actually reading more in on the subject an there for having a better understanding of the cited work I have shown.

That's the thing. lol You Did NOT. You cited some words that did NOT say what you said that they did. This was pointed out to you. You ignored it.

You are making stuff up and then going Egro bla bla bla. It's based on stuff you made up, therefore it can't be consequently from stuff you just made up. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your stargate example is no good, Tolkeen had years to plan an evacuation, they spent that time building up arms and preparing for war, with no back up plans no escape routes just war.

And Tolkeen had one state's worth of population, not a PLANET.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your stargate example is no good, Tolkeen had years to plan an evacuation, they spent that time building up arms and preparing for war, with no back up plans no escape routes just war.

There can be no escape routs .. if the city was already being "contained" from a Coalition military..

This has been pointed out to you but "WORKING TO CONTAIN" does not mean "TOLKEEN WAS UNDER FULL 100% LOCK DOWN AND CONTAINMENT.

Do you understand the difference?

And AGAIN..... they could have left BEFORE the Cs came to TRY and contain them.

[barna10]

Do we have to get nasty?

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

I've found references to Brodkil, Gargoyles, and Daemonix, but no others (not saying there not they're, just that I haven't found them yet). These are hardly the worst of the worst as far as demons go.

Regarding the Daemonix, they were not imprisoned because they were "so bad", they were bullied and imprisoned by other demons. They were the whipping boys of demon kind. That's why they were so loyal and and liked the Tolkeenites so much; the Tolkeenites freed them and showed them respect for the first time, ever. The reason they had to be segregated from the Brodkil and Gargoyles is because they attack ANY other demon on sight. They do this because of the thousands of years of abuse they suffered at the hands of other demons.

I think the Tolkeenite/Daemonix relationship is both sad and pretty cool. It's like when Zeus freed the hundred and handed from their prison and they pledged allegiance to him; they were still Titans and evil, but they owed Zeus a debt and are eternally his allies. A classic theme.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Do we have to get nasty?

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

I've found references to Brodkil, Gargoyles, and Daemonix, but no others (not saying there not there, just that I haven't found them yet). These are hardly the worst of the worst as far as demons go.

"Oh these Demons are Demons but not as bad as Demons can go. We're dealing withh the simply evil mankind hating, eats human kinda demons. Not the other kid. *Blink blink*

Really? "Sure they're demons but not as bad as demons can get" Is the route you want to take?

As for other demons, it's mentioned in the section about the Daemonix, about how they're so bully like that even other Demons will fight with them so Tolkeen has to keep them apart from their other demonic forces.

Regarding the Daemonix, they were not imprisoned because they were "so bad", they were bullied and imprisoned by other demons. They were the whipping boys of demon kind. That's why they were so loyal and and liked the Tolkeenites so much; the Tolkeenites freed them and showed them respect for the first time, ever. The reason they had to be segregated from the Brodkil and Gargoyles is because they attack ANY other demon on sight. They do this because of the thousands of years of abuse they suffered at the hands of other demons.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to feel sorry for the Demonic army? Ones that are so pissy that they attack their demonic allies on sight? Is that a selling point for how tolkeen is NOT evil? That they're using Demons that even other demons locked away?

Seems you're selling more the "Tolkeen is evil" Side here.

I think the Tolkeenite/Daemonix relationship is both sad and pretty cool. It's like when Zeus freed the hundred and handed from their prison and they pledged allegiance to him; they were still Titans and evil, but they owed Zeus a debt and are eternally his allies. A classic theme.

They're still evil demons. lol That tolkeen busted them out of Demon jail and that they attack other demons doesn't make them good. It just means they're THAT bad. So bad they can't even work well with other demons. They're a literal Demonic army/horde. It doesn't get much worse than that.

[barna10]

I already covered this with you, they have Ley lines and nexus points and can teleport in limited supplies, ERGO they could bring in supplies they could escape.

Yes, they could have run, but to where? It's like saying it would have been better to abandon a medieval castle than to wait for the siege. Tolkeen was a fortified city. I would think it would be better to defend it than try and make it in the hostile wilderness. Abandoning the city would have been a tactical mistake. Not that fighting the CS was a smart decision, just that abandonment would have been worse.

I think the Tolkeenites were between a rock and a hard place; they couldn't leave and they were doomed to loose. So they made the best of it and lost. Every war has a looser.

Besides, if it had not been for the Machinations of Dunscon and in-fighting within the political ranks, the war may have gone another way, but how can you prepare for allies turning on you and your own leaders failing you. These are variables you don't factor in to a war plan, usually.

This is my (new) interpretation of how things went down. Hopefully, the writers run with this idea and include lessons learned from the Tolkeen travesty in future storylines. Places like Lazlo, Dweomer, and the rest of the Fed are all taking in refugees from Tolkeen. They should all have access to at least some history of how the war went and their leaders are all smart enough to learn from Tolkeen's mistakes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I already covered this with you, they have Ley lines and nexus points and can teleport in limited supplies, ERGO they could bring in supplies they could escape.

Yes, they could have run, but to where?

Anywhere the CS couldn't reach to crush them. Remember 90% of Rifts earth is Wilderness. They could have moved west to the base of the rockkies or over the rockies into that vastly (Undocumented)) West coast.

It's like saying it would have been better to abandon a medieval castle than to wait for the siege. Tolkeen was a fortified city. I would think it would be better to defend it than try and make it in the hostile wilderness.

*looks at the ruins of tolkeen and all the dead folks* Nope. I'd take my chances with all that magical might in the wilderness, vs the largest army on the continent.

Abandoning the city would have been a tactical mistake. Not that fighting the CS was a smart decision, just that abandonment would have been worse.

How could it have been worse? Their city is obliterated, their forces are smashed, the only people alive are refugees with no military to protect them (( which they would have had they evacuated before hand)) and scattered groups of cowards that fled battle or terrorists that.. fled the battle when tolkeen was smashed.

Instead of building up and digging in for 10 years, they could have been moving and building anew for 10 years, while covered by that army that went to war.

I think the Tolkeenites were between a rock and a hard place; they couldn't leave and they were doomed to loose. So they made the best of it and lost. Every war has a looser.

Did they have favorable choices? No, but they COULD have left and made a go at it. No matter what they found it wouldn't have been as bad as an army of MILLIONS set on your destruction. Would they lose some people in the move? Sure, would they have lost -----everything----? No.

Besides, if it had not been for the Machinations of Dunscon and in-fighting within the political ranks, the war may have gone another way, but how can you prepare for allies turning on you and your own leaders failing you. These are variables you don't factor in to a war plan, usually

Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

This is my (new) interpretation of how things went down. Hopefully, the writers run with this idea and include lessons learned from the Tolkeen travesty in future storylines. Places like Lazlo, Dweomer, and the rest of the Fed are all taking in refugees from Tolkeen. They should all have access to at least some history of how the war went and their leaders are all smart enough to learn from Tolkeen's mistakes.

That's the thing. Lazlow Dwomer and all KNEW Tolkeen's mistakes, BEFORE They made them. They WARNED tolkeen of their mistakes. Tolkeen told them to Frak off.

[barna10]

Do we have to get nasty?

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

I've found references to Brodkil, Gargoyles, and Daemonix, but no others (not saying there not there, just that I haven't found them yet). These are hardly the worst of the worst as far as demons go.

"Oh these Demons are Demons but not as bad as Demons can go. We're dealing withh the simply evil mankind hating, eats human kinda demons. Not the other kid. *Blink blink*

Really? "Sure they're demons but not as bad as demons can get" Is the route you want to take?

As for other demons, it's mentioned in the section about the Daemonix, about how they're so bully like that even other Demons will fight with them so Tolkeen has to keep them apart from their other demonic forces.

Regarding the Daemonix, they were not imprisoned because they were "so bad", they were bullied and imprisoned by other demons. They were the whipping boys of demon kind. That's why they were so loyal and and liked the Tolkeenites so much; the Tolkeenites freed them and showed them respect for the first time, ever. The reason they had to be segregated from the Brodkil and Gargoyles is because they attack ANY other demon on sight. They do this because of the thousands of years of abuse they suffered at the hands of other demons.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to feel sorry for the Demonic army? Ones that are so pissy that they attack their demonic allies on sight? Is that a selling point for how tolkeen is NOT evil? That they're using Demons that even other demons locked away?

Seems you're selling more the "Tolkeen is evil" Side here.

I think the Tolkeenite/Daemonix relationship is both sad and pretty cool. It's like when Zeus freed the hundred and handed from their prison and they pledged allegiance to him; they were still Titans and evil, but they owed Zeus a debt and are eternally his allies. A classic theme.

They're still evil demons. lol That tolkeen busted them out of Demon jail and that they attack other demons doesn't make them good. It just means they're THAT bad. So bad they can't even work well with other demons. They're a literal Demonic army/horde. It doesn't get much worse than that.

Instead of ripping my post apart, you should read the description of the Daemonix in Coalition Wars 3. It details how the Daemonix were 100% loyal to the Tolkeenites, how they were bullied by other demons, how they attacked other demons on sight because they hate them for the endless torture they endured, how they would only attack CS military and other enemies of Tolkeen, and how much they truly admired the Tolkeenites and would have done anything to help defend them.

If your argument is that the world is that the (game) world is black and white, a demon is a demon, fine. That there is absolute good and absolute evil, fine. This means Prosek (diabloic) is just as evil as any demon. There is nothing separating Prosek from the demons. They are both evil, hungry for power, willing to sacrifice anything and anyone to get what they want, and desire power at any cost.

At the very least, Tolkeen and the CS were equally evil. One of them still is...

[barna10]

Well the first part is easy to answer Where is found by a scouting party, you put resources into securing and prepping a new site, you don't waste it on weapons of war alone. You don't abandoned the old city completely you keep a small contingent of soldiers on hand to "hold" the city as long as they can, until the CS forces breach the city defenses then that contingent runs through a rift. You look like honorable hero's to all the other nations and you make the CS's victory hollow and pointless. What they did only made Karl's lies look true and strengthen his power on the CS.

Then what do you do the next time the CS is at your doorstep, and the next time, and the next time, and the next time....

If not Tolkeen, it would have been some other city state. Is everyone supposed to run every time the CS comes knocking?

[barna10]

Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

Where does it state that Dunscon told them to "frak" off. In the Federation of Magic book it states that he planned to provide forces and let the Tolkeenites think they were getting help right up until the point when they would be needed, then they were going to pull back and watch the carnage. Is there something else stated in the Coalition War series?

[Lenwen]

Your stargate example is no good, Tolkeen had years to plan an evacuation, they spent that time building up arms and preparing for war, with no back up plans no escape routes just war.

There can be no escape routs .. if the city was already being "contained" from a Coalition military..

This has been pointed out to you but "WORKING TO CONTAIN" does not mean "TOLKEEN WAS UNDER FULL 100% LOCK DOWN AND CONTAINMENT.

Do you understand the difference?

And AGAIN..... they could have left BEFORE the Cs came to TRY and contain them.

So a city .. just minding its own business .. just ups an moves .. cause at the time the CS does not like them ?

Cite me 1 City in exsistence EVER .. in any part of the world that did that very thing .. moved an entire City / Nation .. because its neighbor did not like them..

Just one ..

[Lenwen]

You are making stuff up and then going Egro bla bla bla. It's based on stuff you made up, therefore it can't be consequently from stuff you just made up. lol

Clearly .. some one is upset .. their whole Tolkeen could have just left before the CS invaded theory was blown away .. but cited refrences that do not support their theory ..

It was nice try Pepsi Jedi .. but I've shown that theory to be not backed up supported canon books.

You clearly are upset with this .. I will refrain from posting. So that you may be better able to support your own theories how ever you wish my friend.

Good day.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Do we have to get nasty?

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

I've found references to Brodkil, Gargoyles, and Daemonix, but no others (not saying there not there, just that I haven't found them yet). These are hardly the worst of the worst as far as demons go.

"Oh these Demons are Demons but not as bad as Demons can go. We're dealing withh the simply evil mankind hating, eats human kinda demons. Not the other kid. *Blink blink*

Really? "Sure they're demons but not as bad as demons can get" Is the route you want to take?

As for other demons, it's mentioned in the section about the Daemonix, about how they're so bully like that even other Demons will fight with them so Tolkeen has to keep them apart from their other demonic forces.

Regarding the Daemonix, they were not imprisoned because they were "so bad", they were bullied and imprisoned by other demons. They were the whipping boys of demon kind. That's why they were so loyal and and liked the Tolkeenites so much; the Tolkeenites freed them and showed them respect for the first time, ever. The reason they had to be segregated from the Brodkil and Gargoyles is because they attack ANY other demon on sight. They do this because of the thousands of years of abuse they suffered at the hands of other demons.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to feel sorry for the Demonic army? Ones that are so pissy that they attack their demonic allies on sight? Is that a selling point for how tolkeen is NOT evil? That they're using Demons that even other demons locked away?

Seems you're selling more the "Tolkeen is evil" Side here.

I think the Tolkeenite/Daemonix relationship is both sad and pretty cool. It's like when Zeus freed the hundred and handed from their prison and they pledged allegiance to him; they were still Titans and evil, but they owed Zeus a debt and are eternally his allies. A classic theme.

They're still evil demons. lol That tolkeen busted them out of Demon jail and that they attack other demons doesn't make them good. It just means they're THAT bad. So bad they can't even work well with other demons. They're a literal Demonic army/horde. It doesn't get much worse than that.

Instead of ripping my post apart, you should read the description of the Daemonix in Coalition Wars 3. It details how the Daemonix were 100% loyal to the Tolkeenites, how they were bullied by other demons, how they attacked other demons on sight because they hate them for the endless torture they endured, how they would only attack CS military and other enemies of Tolkeen, and how much they truly admired the Tolkeenites and would have done anything to help defend them.

If your argument is that the world is that the (game) world is black and white, a demon is a demon, fine. That there is absolute good and absolute evil, fine. This means Prosek (diabloic) is just as evil as any demon. There is nothing separating Prosek from the demons. They are both evil, hungry for power, willing to sacrifice anything and anyone to get what they want, and desire power at any cost.

At the very least, Tolkeen and the CS were equally evil. One of them still is...

You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the first part is easy to answer Where is found by a scouting party, you put resources into securing and prepping a new site, you don't waste it on weapons of war alone. You don't abandoned the old city completely you keep a small contingent of soldiers on hand to "hold" the city as long as they can, until the CS forces breach the city defenses then that contingent runs through a rift. You look like honorable hero's to all the other nations and you make the CS's victory hollow and pointless. What they did only made Karl's lies look true and strengthen his power on the CS.

Then what do you do the next time the CS is at your doorstep, and the next time, and the next time, and the next time....

If not Tolkeen, it would have been some other city state. Is everyone supposed to run every time the CS comes knocking?

Flee the first part. Rebuild. Defend. Raise armies of 'Good" to stand against the CS. With time you might have found other allies (( New navy? Lemuria? Ect ect ect)) that might stand against the CS if the CS is as evil as you think.

Again, read the entire thread. the "They'd just eventually have to fight them" has been addressed. In short you don't KNOW that will happen. Atlantis might come across the atlantic in a few days and take out the CS. You don't KNOW what's going to happen in the future, but you KNOW, if you're dead, it won't matter to you at all.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You are making stuff up and then going Egro bla bla bla. It's based on stuff you made up, therefore it can't be consequently from stuff you just made up. lol

Clearly .. some one is upset .. their whole Tolkeen could have just left before the CS invaded theory was blown away .. but cited refrences that do not support their theory ..

It was nice try Pepsi Jedi .. but I've shown that theory to be not backed up supported canon books.

You clearly are upset with this .. I will refrain from posting. So that you may be better able to support your own theories how ever you wish my friend.

Good day.

LOL it's not blown away Lenwen. Look around. Noone reads the prhases you quoted, the way you do. They point out the same thing I have. That the stuff you've quoted, don't SAY what you are saying they do.

You're throwing up a quote like "The sky is blue" and going EGRO!! THe skys are always PURPLE!!!" even though your quote doesn't say that. You're then going on to go "Oh because the skys are purple we can see clearly that orange would stand out sharply against the purple"

When the quote never said they were purple. (( This is clearly a hypothetical example, before you go off about having never said anything about skies. I know. It's showing the way you're trying to define your argument))

You haven't SHOWN anything. You just SAY that you have. Which I've pointed out, isn't the same thing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You are making stuff up and then going Egro bla bla bla. It's based on stuff you made up, therefore it can't be consequently from stuff you just made up. lol

Clearly .. some one is upset .. their whole Tolkeen could have just left before the CS invaded theory was blown away .. but cited refrences that do not support their theory ..

It was nice try Pepsi Jedi .. but I've shown that theory to be not backed up supported canon books.

You clearly are upset with this .. I will refrain from posting. So that you may be better able to support your own theories how ever you wish my friend.

Good day.

I proved you wrong Pepsi may just yell but I pointed out (with books) where you were wrong time and time again. I showed that yes they could have left, yes they knew what the CS was going to do and Yes Tolkeen choose to fight with no plan other then fight to the bitter end.

I don't just yell. I've pointed it out too. Lenwen just repeats his misinformation and goes HA!! I proved you wrong!!! even though he really hasn't.

[Lenwen]

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Every Daemonix can be either Miscreant or Diabolic ..

Emporer Prosek is Diabolic ..

Ergo .. "Consequently" .. Some of the "Demons" will have a better alignemt then the Leader of the Coalition Military ..

And your trying to argue that he is not as evil .. because he is a human who has the CHOICE .. of being good or bad ..an chooses evil ?

Over a Race of sub demons who have no choice to even be good or selfish ?

this makes me giggle..