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Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:"If you don't succeed, try try again"

"Then give up; don't make a damned fool out of yourself."

Realist v Optimist, the eternal battle

"If at first you don't succeed, determine why your first effort failed, test your new understanding of the problem, and verify that your new plan to solve the problem is correct. If solving the problem is worth the amount of effort your new plan requires, try again."

Pragmatists make the world go around.

--flatline

Well, that gets us to the important question: why didn't RUE solve the problem?

Simple it is imposible to every truely make a game 100% right. Every game has its draw backs. If the main writers are creative but fallow a some what scatered aproach to orginising materal then every thing they write whould have that problem. The orginazation in RUE fallows the same patern as almost all PB products. Witch means the draw back is inhernt trait of the person that creates it all and as he has created a setting that we all care about on some level I whould not want to harsh his buz and stop the parts that I like for something that whould solve some problems but risk loosing fan base that support it because they do not have to keep buying the same materal in a slighty changed format.

Heck Sending free cookies to Dr. Doom III has more suport on the forums than a full sysem reboot.

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

So your excuse is because it is hard we are not even going to try. Spoken like a lazy person. Yes it will require work. But if we want the system to succeed we need to fix the correct perception that the system is broken. Because as written it is. The concepts for the system are sound and do work. But if you can't convince new people to play it is going to fail. I can't find anyone local to play. You know why? Because the perception rightfully so is that the system is broken. And unless we do what is needed to fix the system Palladiums playership will continue to decline.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:"If you don't succeed, try try again"

"Then give up; don't make a damned fool out of yourself."

Realist v Optimist, the eternal battle

"If at first you don't succeed, determine why your first effort failed, test your new understanding of the problem, and verify that your new plan to solve the problem is correct. If solving the problem is worth the amount of effort your new plan requires, try again."

Pragmatists make the world go around.

--flatline

Well, that gets us to the important question: why didn't RUE solve the problem?

Because R:UE did not actually fix anything. And in a number of places is obviously broken still.

I don't think a full reboot is necessary nor do I think it is a good idea to invalidate published material.

I would suggest that whatever new setting they create not use the megaversal system but whatever the "improved" system is. If the feedback is positive, then expand the new system to include what currently exists (perhaps leaving some things behind if there's no good way to handle them without giving up the benefits of the new system) and maybe publish a "conversion book" which would give suggestions those of us who want to to apply the new system to existing settings.

They could continue to use the existing system in established settings like Rifts.

Those of us with extensive house rule systems already know how to handle existing material, so the Rifts reboot is only necessary if it makes good business sense due to overwhelming positive response.

I would love to see Wormwood rebooted. Complete the setting and give it an improved system.

--flatline

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

I cant afford to put in the 400-600 man-hours i estimate it would take me to rewrite and reformat the rules on spec.. hell not even on spec, but on "gee i hope Kev likes it and will pay me". Otherwise, i'd do it in a heartbeat. I even live close enough to commute to their headquarters occasionally if i had to.

Have you thought of maybe putting together a few examples of what needs to be done and taking it to Kevin and selling him on the idea? i don't know that he would go for it. But I know there are some major flaws and I am sure one can make a convincing argument to him. I don't think the fixes need to invalidate a single book. I think the Mechanics are sound. their presentation is **** frankly.

Jay05 wrote:
Sureshot, it is a known fact that PB cannot afford to hire new employees at this time. If they could and could offer a competative wage/salery, I have a feeling they'd have people beating down the door for a job. As it is they have 6 very dedicated staffers who from everything I hear frequently work themselves sick to get what they can done and often they are rewarded with just enough cash flow to keep the doors open, and production continuing. How in the hell do you propose those six people stop what they're working on to reboot the whole damn line?! Which btw would likely alienate a large % of their core fan base. People complain about lack of product now. Rebooting would grind it to a halt for a time. Perhaps too long. Seems we agree here Nekira

I never said they had to do this instant. It's a idea a suggestion. I never demanded they do so either. I respect their work ethic except no matter how much work ethic they put in it's not going to slow the downward spiral in terms of losing fans and making less profit. I think eventually it must happen. That or either kevin wins the lottery which is or he gets a outside investment. The first without luck is never going to happen. The second could happen yet I'm not seeing anyone investing a rpg line that is not profitable or that has no changes made to it to become profitable. Honeslty I can't see how thing s will change without at least a major streamlining. I just don't. There will be no miracle pb megaversal revival no matter how many ruby red shoes the fans click togther and go " I wish I wish".

Nor is it news to me the company has only six staff and work hard and long hours either. I don't even know why you brought this up. I'm not some noob fan just coming on the boards. I know how hard everyone at the company works. Then tell me beyond a major update and streamlining or possible new edition how does one turn things around. Yes you might lose some fans if even a streamlined edition is attempted. Except from what I can see even with no changes the company is hurting. It's like people want the company to improve. Yet they don't want anything to change. Wants fans who dislike the system to come back in droves yet not change anything. Want the company to make more money yet not change anything. Well if you can accomplish the impossible get back to me. I'm curious to see how anyone did it and want to learn the secret.

Daeglan wrote:Have you thought of maybe putting together a few examples of what needs to be done and taking it to Kevin and selling him on the idea? i don't know that he would go for it. But I know there are some major flaws and I am sure one can make a convincing argument to him. I don't think the fixes need to invalidate a single book. I think the Mechanics are sound. their presentation is **** frankly.

It's already been done through the feedback threads from awhile back. I'm not sure if they can or are even willing to even implement anything from those threads. PB ios caught in a catch 22 of their own making.

I am not talking digital feed back. Present those changes and arguments to his face. Much harder for him to ignore that way.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:Johnnycat93. The problem with what you propose however, is a total rewrite would cause those of us with thousands spent over the years to re purchase new editions to be compatible and up to date. Now I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not rolling in money over here. The prospect of having to re-purchase updated books not because they are worn out from use, but because they no longer apply to the game they were designed for is an unacceptable one. And I bet I'm not alone. At least RUE with it's changes didn't TOTALLY invalidate the older books!

I understand the REALISTIC limits of doing a 2nd ed. However, I still believe that the system would benefit from one. On top of that, none of this changes the fact that there are issues with how the system works now, and I don't know about everyone else but when I see a problem I make an effort to fix that problem. And when I say fix I mean beyond a simple house rule done by a GM.

The problem is, while it may be best for the system in terms of mechanics, I don't think it'd be best for the business. they'd have to pay for new runs on every product they wanted to upgrade, not to mention hire a whole staff of new writers sinse there is no way in hell kevin will have time to re-write everything and get it done before 2098.

And on top of that, it would drive many longtime fans from bothering to buy the new edition after the huge upfront expence, and if they don't attract an entirely new market--a new market that's a lot more crowded than when palladium broke in the first time, and competing with MMO's and other digital time wasters that eat into most RPG gamer's free time (the eairly 80's was before all this).

In short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Well I'd also like to see a larger switch to digital media but that is beside the current point. All I'm saying is that it couldn't hurt to do something about the parts of the system that don't work right now. I'm not asking for a 2nd ed necessarily (I'm fine with the concept of the mechanics after all), just that the authors sit down and take a look at all the collective rules that they have scattered across 50+ books and make them a little bit better functionality wise. You know, kill this rule, clarify that rule, make everything sparkly and pretty.

exactly. and most of the rules function fine. You just have to struggle to figure out what those rules are because they are written so badly. I should be able to hand the rules to a new person and have then be able to read the rules and understand what is meant.

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

So your excuse is because it is hard we are not even going to try. Spoken like a lazy person. Yes it will require work. But if we want the system to succeed we need to fix the correct perception that the system is broken. Because as written it is. The concepts for the system are sound and do work. But if you can't convince new people to play it is going to fail. I can't find anyone local to play. You know why? Because the perception rightfully so is that the system is broken. And unless we do what is needed to fix the system Palladiums playership will continue to decline.

Wait... I am the lazy one? I am dedicating my free time to re-organizing the rules instead of just coming on here and posting in the hopes that maybe the company will do it instead?
No I think we both know who real lazys are...

Johnnycat93 wrote:Well I'd also like to see a larger switch to digital media but that is beside the current point. All I'm saying is that it couldn't hurt to do something about the parts of the system that don't work right now. I'm not asking for a 2nd ed necessarily (I'm fine with the concept of the mechanics after all), just that the authors sit down and take a look at all the collective rules that they have scattered across 50+ books and make them a little bit better functionality wise. You know, kill this rule, clarify that rule, make everything sparkly and pretty.

I would love to see the make more pdfs. While I would like to see a new edition I'm perfectly happy with a streamlined cleaned up version of the rules that everyone including Kevin has to stick to.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:n short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Or it can continue to die slowly and be gone in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Too many people assume a third edition would invalidate older books. It doesn't have to, plain and simple. About 10 pages of material should be able to explain the changes between old and new and offer rules for converting old material -

not that this should be that necessary anyway. I dont know that anyone is looking to scrap core mechanics, simply re-edit and re-write what currently exists into a flow that actually allows the rules to function and for new players to easily understand them. That in and of itself would be a monumental undertaking. On top of that, the literally hundreds of rules (i ran into a special rule in one of the SoT books for penalties for a deaths-head transport if it gets into weather trouble, etc that are printed nowhere else) that are printed elsewhere need to be examined and either codified into the core mechanics or thrown out.

New rules should only appear in sourcebooks when absolutely necessary, and currently they are thrown in willy-nilly to cover situations already covered by the core rules in a lot of cases. There are so many "special exception" rules in this system that my eyes threaten to bleed sometimes.

Back to my point, though:

Old books dont need to be invalidated. Honestly, too many of the books have new game mechanics that dont need them (I dont necessarily think of new magic types as new game mechanics - they function like other spells, and therefore are not a new *mechanic*).

Going forward from any new edition, better editing control should ensure that new rules aren't printed willy-nilly and if they are included in a lot of sourcebooks, they should also be added to the core rules via addendums (can be done electronically for virtually no cost).

Bottom line is, Palladium can die slowly if nothing changes, or (potentially) die quickly, but at the same time (potentially) finally fix their tarnished reputation as being a broken and unwieldy system and attract new blood. Witout new blood, the company is doomed in the medium-to-long-term anyway. I live in Michigan, the "homeland" of PB - and you cannot buy PB on shelves here except at maybe... four or five places that im aware of. Out of a group of almost 300 dedicated role-players that im part of (a LARPing group that also exhaustively tabletops) less than a dozen of us have ever even played a Palladium product and maybe half a dozen actively want to (including me).

Something has to give. I dont want to see Palladium die. They were my second RPG ever (after red-box D&D) via Heroes Unlimited/TMNT and i think the settings and intellectual property they produce are top-notch. But without some kind of overhaul or working hard to land a new license that will attract a ton of players (and keep them, which will mean an overhaul of the mechanics) the company is dying, slowly but surely.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

So your excuse is because it is hard we are not even going to try. Spoken like a lazy person. Yes it will require work. But if we want the system to succeed we need to fix the correct perception that the system is broken. Because as written it is. The concepts for the system are sound and do work. But if you can't convince new people to play it is going to fail. I can't find anyone local to play. You know why? Because the perception rightfully so is that the system is broken. And unless we do what is needed to fix the system Palladiums playership will continue to decline.

Wait... I am the lazy one? I am dedicating my free time to re-organizing the rules instead of just coming on here and posting in the hopes that maybe the company will do it instead?
No I think we both know who real lazys are...

I am not a writer. But that does not make my complaints invalid. And just because I am not a writer does not mean I should shut up. I have yet to see these rules clean ups you are talking about. I just see you try and shut down people from making valid complaints.

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

So your excuse is because it is hard we are not even going to try. Spoken like a lazy person. Yes it will require work. But if we want the system to succeed we need to fix the correct perception that the system is broken. Because as written it is. The concepts for the system are sound and do work. But if you can't convince new people to play it is going to fail. I can't find anyone local to play. You know why? Because the perception rightfully so is that the system is broken. And unless we do what is needed to fix the system Palladiums playership will continue to decline.

Wait... I am the lazy one? I am dedicating my free time to re-organizing the rules instead of just coming on here and posting in the hopes that maybe the company will do it instead?
No I think we both know who real lazys are...

I am not a writer. But that does not make my complaints invalid. And just because I am not a writer does not mean I should shut up. I have yet to see these rules clean ups you are talking about. I just see you try and shut down people from making valid complaints.

you obviously havent been paying attention...
I dont shut down VALID complaints.
Unlike others around here I can have my opinion changed by calm, clear, concise, and well reasoned arguments.
Trouble is there arent very many of those being tossed about.
You want me to agree that rule XYZ is broken?
Then Prove it is actually broken and not just a rule with which you disagree.

Daeglan wrote:I am not talking digital feed back. Present those changes and arguments to his face. Much harder for him to ignore that way.

So, put your money where your mouth is, and head down to the offices and see what Kevin or Alex say. I hear they're pretty cool with customers/ fans dropping by.

Jay05 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:I am not talking digital feed back. Present those changes and arguments to his face. Much harder for him to ignore that way.

So, put your money where your mouth is, and head down to the offices and see what Kevin or Alex say. I hear they're pretty cool with customers/ fans dropping by.

I live in LA and am unemployed. Want to buy me a plane ticket to do so? I would do it in a heartbeat.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:We go through this "the system needs an update or replaced!" discussion about every 3 moths or so... does anyone ever bother to consider just how long it would take the company to do that?
we are looking at Palladium going at least 2 years with NO NEW PRODUCT.
In its current state that is not a feasible proposition.

I have been working on re-organizing the rules for awhile now...
And it is no easy task. I have to stop myself from trying to add in my own bias as to how certain rules function.
Because before the "fixes" can be added the baseline of what was there before must first be-established.
So to all you who say its a simple matter to do I say...
"put up or shut up"
If you are as a big a fan as you claim to be and you have the companies best interest at heart...
Then Give them a hand.
Prove to us its a simple process and "create the Palladium mechanics bible" yourself and then submit it to Big Kev.
Otherwise you are just one more in a sea voices on the internet.

So your excuse is because it is hard we are not even going to try. Spoken like a lazy person. Yes it will require work. But if we want the system to succeed we need to fix the correct perception that the system is broken. Because as written it is. The concepts for the system are sound and do work. But if you can't convince new people to play it is going to fail. I can't find anyone local to play. You know why? Because the perception rightfully so is that the system is broken. And unless we do what is needed to fix the system Palladiums playership will continue to decline.

Wait... I am the lazy one? I am dedicating my free time to re-organizing the rules instead of just coming on here and posting in the hopes that maybe the company will do it instead?
No I think we both know who real lazys are...

I am not a writer. But that does not make my complaints invalid. And just because I am not a writer does not mean I should shut up. I have yet to see these rules clean ups you are talking about. I just see you try and shut down people from making valid complaints.

you obviously havent been paying attention...
I dont shut down VALID complaints.
Unlike others around here I can have my opinion changed by calm, clear, concise, and well reasoned arguments.
Trouble is there arent very many of those being tossed about.
You want me to agree that rule XYZ is broken?
Then Prove it is actually broken and not just a rule with which you disagree.

Character creation is broken because the order is wrong and has new people starting in the wrong place and doing the steps wrong.
The Combat rules are not laid out in a manner that a new player can follow them step by step and learn the combat system.
The way combat actions are handle lead to weirdness like those with more actions acting the same speed as everyone else and then suddenly getting a flurry of actions at the end.
Magic is never talked about in the combat section as to when it takes place or how it is handled. And rules as written do not give you an opportunity to cast a spell.

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:you obviously havent been paying attention...
I dont shut down VALID complaints.
Unlike others around here I can have my opinion changed by calm, clear, concise, and well reasoned arguments.
Trouble is there arent very many of those being tossed about.
You want me to agree that rule XYZ is broken?
Then Prove it is actually broken and not just a rule with which you disagree.

Character creation is broken because the order is wrong and has new people starting in the wrong place and doing the steps wrong.
The Combat rules are not laid out in a manner that a new player can follow them step by step and learn the combat system.
The way combat actions are handle lead to weirdness like those with more actions acting the same speed as everyone else and then suddenly getting a flurry of actions at the end.
Magic is never talked about in the combat section as to when it takes place or how it is handled. And rules as written do not give you an opportunity to cast a spell.

Old news... If you bothered to pay attention earlier in this thread I actually posted a link to a previous thread where a few of us discussed this with out getting emotional about it.
Now are there more breaks or are we just going to re-hash what we already know?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:n short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Or it can continue to die slowly and be gone in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Too many people assume a third edition would invalidate older books. It doesn't have to, plain and simple. About 10 pages of material should be able to explain the changes between old and new and offer rules for converting old material -

not that this should be that necessary anyway. I dont know that anyone is looking to scrap core mechanics, simply re-edit and re-write what currently exists into a flow that actually allows the rules to function and for new players to easily understand them. That in and of itself would be a monumental undertaking. On top of that, the literally hundreds of rules (i ran into a special rule in one of the SoT books for penalties for a deaths-head transport if it gets into weather trouble, etc that are printed nowhere else) that are printed elsewhere need to be examined and either codified into the core mechanics or thrown out.

New rules should only appear in sourcebooks when absolutely necessary, and currently they are thrown in willy-nilly to cover situations already covered by the core rules in a lot of cases. There are so many "special exception" rules in this system that my eyes threaten to bleed sometimes.

Back to my point, though:

Old books dont need to be invalidated. Honestly, too many of the books have new game mechanics that dont need them (I dont necessarily think of new magic types as new game mechanics - they function like other spells, and therefore are not a new *mechanic*).

Going forward from any new edition, better editing control should ensure that new rules aren't printed willy-nilly and if they are included in a lot of sourcebooks, they should also be added to the core rules via addendums (can be done electronically for virtually no cost).

Bottom line is, Palladium can die slowly if nothing changes, or (potentially) die quickly, but at the same time (potentially) finally fix their tarnished reputation as being a broken and unwieldy system and attract new blood. Witout new blood, the company is doomed in the medium-to-long-term anyway. I live in Michigan, the "homeland" of PB - and you cannot buy PB on shelves here except at maybe... four or five places that im aware of. Out of a group of almost 300 dedicated role-players that im part of (a LARPing group that also exhaustively tabletops) less than a dozen of us have ever even played a Palladium product and maybe half a dozen actively want to (including me).

Something has to give. I dont want to see Palladium die. They were my second RPG ever (after red-box D&D) via Heroes Unlimited/TMNT and i think the settings and intellectual property they produce are top-notch. But without some kind of overhaul or working hard to land a new license that will attract a ton of players (and keep them, which will mean an overhaul of the mechanics) the company is dying, slowly but surely.

Wait you know the future. You assume the company is dieing is that based on how you feel or have you been comparing how they are doing in sales compaired to how the market as a whole is doing in sales. You make it sound like no one new is buying the books.

From what I have seen PB lines are still one of the main lines that game stores support. 1 store 10 min from my house carries only about 8 companies games in stock one of them is PB. The stoped carring shadow run partaly because it was starting to focus on direct digtial formant sales for lines of suplements cutting off the stores abilty to carry the suplement. The company stoped supporting the game stores so the store stoped supported the company even stoped the weekly shadow run mission games.

I have also interduced new players to the system that started out in 3.5 and pathfinder games and it is one of the favorite games they have, one of 3 games they still play. So while I agree the system does have problems I do not think it will necary die in 5-10 years in fact it recently recovered from a major blow to its bottom line.

To me it is not that the system does not work but that it needs to be orginized better so that it is easier to look up and find the material that you need, and fallow the rules easier. (I have on a personal project tried gathering the rules or just lining them up in the right order the few poeple I have shown what I did so far seam to think it did clean them up a little.)

Blue_Lion wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:n short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Or it can continue to die slowly and be gone in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Too many people assume a third edition would invalidate older books. It doesn't have to, plain and simple. About 10 pages of material should be able to explain the changes between old and new and offer rules for converting old material -

not that this should be that necessary anyway. I dont know that anyone is looking to scrap core mechanics, simply re-edit and re-write what currently exists into a flow that actually allows the rules to function and for new players to easily understand them. That in and of itself would be a monumental undertaking. On top of that, the literally hundreds of rules (i ran into a special rule in one of the SoT books for penalties for a deaths-head transport if it gets into weather trouble, etc that are printed nowhere else) that are printed elsewhere need to be examined and either codified into the core mechanics or thrown out.

New rules should only appear in sourcebooks when absolutely necessary, and currently they are thrown in willy-nilly to cover situations already covered by the core rules in a lot of cases. There are so many "special exception" rules in this system that my eyes threaten to bleed sometimes.

Back to my point, though:

Old books dont need to be invalidated. Honestly, too many of the books have new game mechanics that dont need them (I dont necessarily think of new magic types as new game mechanics - they function like other spells, and therefore are not a new *mechanic*).

Going forward from any new edition, better editing control should ensure that new rules aren't printed willy-nilly and if they are included in a lot of sourcebooks, they should also be added to the core rules via addendums (can be done electronically for virtually no cost).

Bottom line is, Palladium can die slowly if nothing changes, or (potentially) die quickly, but at the same time (potentially) finally fix their tarnished reputation as being a broken and unwieldy system and attract new blood. Witout new blood, the company is doomed in the medium-to-long-term anyway. I live in Michigan, the "homeland" of PB - and you cannot buy PB on shelves here except at maybe... four or five places that im aware of. Out of a group of almost 300 dedicated role-players that im part of (a LARPing group that also exhaustively tabletops) less than a dozen of us have ever even played a Palladium product and maybe half a dozen actively want to (including me).

Something has to give. I dont want to see Palladium die. They were my second RPG ever (after red-box D&D) via Heroes Unlimited/TMNT and i think the settings and intellectual property they produce are top-notch. But without some kind of overhaul or working hard to land a new license that will attract a ton of players (and keep them, which will mean an overhaul of the mechanics) the company is dying, slowly but surely.

Wait you know the future. You assume the company is dieing is that based on how you feel or have you been comparing how they are doing in sales compaired to how the market as a whole is doing in sales. You make it sound like no one new is buying the books.

From what I have seen PB lines are still one of the main lines that game stores support. 1 store 10 min from my house carries only about 8 companies games in stock one of them is PB. The stoped carring shadow run partaly because it was starting to focus on direct digtial formant sales for lines of suplements cutting off the stores abilty to carry the suplement. The company stoped supporting the game stores so the store stoped supported the company even stoped the weekly shadow run mission games.

I have also interduced new players to the system that started out in 3.5 and pathfinder games and it is one of the favorite games they have, one of 3 games they still play. So while I agree the system does have problems I do not think it will necary die in 5-10 years in fact it recently recovered from a major blow to its bottom line.

To me it is not that the system does not work but that it needs to be orginized better so that it is easier to look up and find the material that you need, and fallow the rules easier. (I have on a personal project tried gathering the rules or just lining them up in the right order the few poeple I have shown what I did so far seam to think it did clean them up a little.)

In point of fact, since i work with wholesalers and retailers of gaming products because of the work i do with various area conventions, yeah, i do have some idea of how Palladium's sales are doing. Hard numbers? No, because im not part of those companies, but when the woman who does tabletop gaming for two of the conventions i'm involved in (and which Palladium has a booth at at least one of them) who is herself an owner of two local gaming stores with her husband wont carry the product because it sits on their shelves for month (and keep in mind, that is here in PB's backyard in Michigan) if it sells at all.

The wholesaler who supplies her (with PB material) is the only one in the midwest still carrying PB product.

The company is (straight from Kevin) not making enough money to even pay the employees enough that they dont have to do other work.

I'm not denigrating PB. Kevin is a good writer. The company had a hard time - no joke. But it isn't JUST the malfeasance that cost the company so heavily - readership/sales were down even then, and that was the better part of a decade ago.

Kickstarters just to get a book published. That's not a good sign.

As much as i detest the d20 system (unbalanced doesn't begin to describe it) it has the benefit of being stone-simple to learn. The same cannot be said of Palladium, and what Palladium needs is an influx of new players. You cant tell me that there arent people out there who will spend a lot of money on the hobby; one of my good friends, who is not exactly rolling in the dough, has probably 1,000$ worth of Pathfinder books. He games three times a week, with three different groups. On top of that, probably half of that is purely digital sales which that company gets to keep FAR more of the money.

Why isn't Palladium making that money? Bad rep. Clunky system. Tons of barriers to entry, including an entrenched and unfriendly fandom, as perceived by the outside world.

It isn't, by any means, JUST the system (though if you go back and read my post, im not calling for a total rewrite), but it certainly is a big factor. I busted out all my Rifts books a few weeks ago, and my basement apartment tennant, while he was upstairs chatting, noticed them. He's a 25 year old gamer, who has been gaming since he was 14. He's lived in Michigan his entire life.

He had never even heard of Palladium Books. He was intrigued, and i loaned him one of the several copies of the RMB i have. A couple of days later he came back to me with "man the setting looks awesome and fun but these rules are terrible."

That is what is wrong right now. People like him are who Palladium needs to be courting - disposable income and free time, loves gaming - how is it even possible that this guy who lives in Michigan, PB's "hometown" as it were, and who has gamed fairly obsessively (goes out to various game shops to partake in boardgames, MTG, Warhammer 40k, and tabletop RPGs several nights a week) has never even heard of the company?!

That is what Palladium is fighting. The industry is changing, and Palladium is barely treading water. Adapt or die, and right now, Palladium's not adapting too well.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:n short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Or it can continue to die slowly and be gone in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Too many people assume a third edition would invalidate older books. It doesn't have to, plain and simple. About 10 pages of material should be able to explain the changes between old and new and offer rules for converting old material -

not that this should be that necessary anyway. I dont know that anyone is looking to scrap core mechanics, simply re-edit and re-write what currently exists into a flow that actually allows the rules to function and for new players to easily understand them. That in and of itself would be a monumental undertaking. On top of that, the literally hundreds of rules (i ran into a special rule in one of the SoT books for penalties for a deaths-head transport if it gets into weather trouble, etc that are printed nowhere else) that are printed elsewhere need to be examined and either codified into the core mechanics or thrown out.

New rules should only appear in sourcebooks when absolutely necessary, and currently they are thrown in willy-nilly to cover situations already covered by the core rules in a lot of cases. There are so many "special exception" rules in this system that my eyes threaten to bleed sometimes.

Back to my point, though:

Old books dont need to be invalidated. Honestly, too many of the books have new game mechanics that dont need them (I dont necessarily think of new magic types as new game mechanics - they function like other spells, and therefore are not a new *mechanic*).

Going forward from any new edition, better editing control should ensure that new rules aren't printed willy-nilly and if they are included in a lot of sourcebooks, they should also be added to the core rules via addendums (can be done electronically for virtually no cost).

Bottom line is, Palladium can die slowly if nothing changes, or (potentially) die quickly, but at the same time (potentially) finally fix their tarnished reputation as being a broken and unwieldy system and attract new blood. Witout new blood, the company is doomed in the medium-to-long-term anyway. I live in Michigan, the "homeland" of PB - and you cannot buy PB on shelves here except at maybe... four or five places that im aware of. Out of a group of almost 300 dedicated role-players that im part of (a LARPing group that also exhaustively tabletops) less than a dozen of us have ever even played a Palladium product and maybe half a dozen actively want to (including me).

Something has to give. I dont want to see Palladium die. They were my second RPG ever (after red-box D&D) via Heroes Unlimited/TMNT and i think the settings and intellectual property they produce are top-notch. But without some kind of overhaul or working hard to land a new license that will attract a ton of players (and keep them, which will mean an overhaul of the mechanics) the company is dying, slowly but surely.

Wait you know the future. You assume the company is dieing is that based on how you feel or have you been comparing how they are doing in sales compaired to how the market as a whole is doing in sales. You make it sound like no one new is buying the books.

From what I have seen PB lines are still one of the main lines that game stores support. 1 store 10 min from my house carries only about 8 companies games in stock one of them is PB. The stoped carring shadow run partaly because it was starting to focus on direct digtial formant sales for lines of suplements cutting off the stores abilty to carry the suplement. The company stoped supporting the game stores so the store stoped supported the company even stoped the weekly shadow run mission games.

I have also interduced new players to the system that started out in 3.5 and pathfinder games and it is one of the favorite games they have, one of 3 games they still play. So while I agree the system does have problems I do not think it will necary die in 5-10 years in fact it recently recovered from a major blow to its bottom line.

To me it is not that the system does not work but that it needs to be orginized better so that it is easier to look up and find the material that you need, and fallow the rules easier. (I have on a personal project tried gathering the rules or just lining them up in the right order the few poeple I have shown what I did so far seam to think it did clean them up a little.)

In point of fact, since i work with wholesalers and retailers of gaming products because of the work i do with various area conventions, yeah, i do have some idea of how Palladium's sales are doing. Hard numbers? No, because im not part of those companies, but when the woman who does tabletop gaming for two of the conventions i'm involved in (and which Palladium has a booth at at least one of them) who is herself an owner of two local gaming stores with her husband wont carry the product because it sits on their shelves for month (and keep in mind, that is here in PB's backyard in Michigan) if it sells at all.

The wholesaler who supplies her (with PB material) is the only one in the midwest still carrying PB product.

The company is (straight from Kevin) not making enough money to even pay the employees enough that they dont have to do other work.

I'm not denigrating PB. Kevin is a good writer. The company had a hard time - no joke. But it isn't JUST the malfeasance that cost the company so heavily - readership/sales were down even then, and that was the better part of a decade ago.

Kickstarters just to get a book published. That's not a good sign.

As much as i detest the d20 system (unbalanced doesn't begin to describe it) it has the benefit of being stone-simple to learn. The same cannot be said of Palladium, and what Palladium needs is an influx of new players. You cant tell me that there arent people out there who will spend a lot of money on the hobby; one of my good friends, who is not exactly rolling in the dough, has probably 1,000$ worth of Pathfinder books. He games three times a week, with three different groups. On top of that, probably half of that is purely digital sales which that company gets to keep FAR more of the money.

Why isn't Palladium making that money? Bad rep. Clunky system. Tons of barriers to entry, including an entrenched and unfriendly fandom, as perceived by the outside world.

It isn't, by any means, JUST the system (though if you go back and read my post, im not calling for a total rewrite), but it certainly is a big factor. I busted out all my Rifts books a few weeks ago, and my basement apartment tennant, while he was upstairs chatting, noticed them. He's a 25 year old gamer, who has been gaming since he was 14. He's lived in Michigan his entire life.

He had never even heard of Palladium Books. He was intrigued, and i loaned him one of the several copies of the RMB i have. A couple of days later he came back to me with "man the setting looks awesome and fun but these rules are terrible."

That is what is wrong right now. People like him are who Palladium needs to be courting - disposable income and free time, loves gaming - how is it even possible that this guy who lives in Michigan, PB's "hometown" as it were, and who has gamed fairly obsessively (goes out to various game shops to partake in boardgames, MTG, Warhammer 40k, and tabletop RPGs several nights a week) has never even heard of the company?!

That is what Palladium is fighting. The industry is changing, and Palladium is barely treading water. Adapt or die, and right now, Palladium's not adapting too well.

This.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:n short, a third edition may make mechanics look pretty, but it has a very high chance of killing the company outright.

Or it can continue to die slowly and be gone in the next 5-10 years anyway.

Too many people assume a third edition would invalidate older books. It doesn't have to, plain and simple. About 10 pages of material should be able to explain the changes between old and new and offer rules for converting old material -

not that this should be that necessary anyway. I dont know that anyone is looking to scrap core mechanics, simply re-edit and re-write what currently exists into a flow that actually allows the rules to function and for new players to easily understand them. That in and of itself would be a monumental undertaking. On top of that, the literally hundreds of rules (i ran into a special rule in one of the SoT books for penalties for a deaths-head transport if it gets into weather trouble, etc that are printed nowhere else) that are printed elsewhere need to be examined and either codified into the core mechanics or thrown out.

New rules should only appear in sourcebooks when absolutely necessary, and currently they are thrown in willy-nilly to cover situations already covered by the core rules in a lot of cases. There are so many "special exception" rules in this system that my eyes threaten to bleed sometimes.

Back to my point, though:

Old books dont need to be invalidated. Honestly, too many of the books have new game mechanics that dont need them (I dont necessarily think of new magic types as new game mechanics - they function like other spells, and therefore are not a new *mechanic*).

Going forward from any new edition, better editing control should ensure that new rules aren't printed willy-nilly and if they are included in a lot of sourcebooks, they should also be added to the core rules via addendums (can be done electronically for virtually no cost).

Bottom line is, Palladium can die slowly if nothing changes, or (potentially) die quickly, but at the same time (potentially) finally fix their tarnished reputation as being a broken and unwieldy system and attract new blood. Witout new blood, the company is doomed in the medium-to-long-term anyway. I live in Michigan, the "homeland" of PB - and you cannot buy PB on shelves here except at maybe... four or five places that im aware of. Out of a group of almost 300 dedicated role-players that im part of (a LARPing group that also exhaustively tabletops) less than a dozen of us have ever even played a Palladium product and maybe half a dozen actively want to (including me).

Something has to give. I dont want to see Palladium die. They were my second RPG ever (after red-box D&D) via Heroes Unlimited/TMNT and i think the settings and intellectual property they produce are top-notch. But without some kind of overhaul or working hard to land a new license that will attract a ton of players (and keep them, which will mean an overhaul of the mechanics) the company is dying, slowly but surely.

Wait you know the future. You assume the company is dieing is that based on how you feel or have you been comparing how they are doing in sales compaired to how the market as a whole is doing in sales. You make it sound like no one new is buying the books.

From what I have seen PB lines are still one of the main lines that game stores support. 1 store 10 min from my house carries only about 8 companies games in stock one of them is PB. The stoped carring shadow run partaly because it was starting to focus on direct digtial formant sales for lines of suplements cutting off the stores abilty to carry the suplement. The company stoped supporting the game stores so the store stoped supported the company even stoped the weekly shadow run mission games.

I have also interduced new players to the system that started out in 3.5 and pathfinder games and it is one of the favorite games they have, one of 3 games they still play. So while I agree the system does have problems I do not think it will necary die in 5-10 years in fact it recently recovered from a major blow to its bottom line.

To me it is not that the system does not work but that it needs to be orginized better so that it is easier to look up and find the material that you need, and fallow the rules easier. (I have on a personal project tried gathering the rules or just lining them up in the right order the few poeple I have shown what I did so far seam to think it did clean them up a little.)

In point of fact, since i work with wholesalers and retailers of gaming products because of the work i do with various area conventions, yeah, i do have some idea of how Palladium's sales are doing. Hard numbers? No, because im not part of those companies, but when the woman who does tabletop gaming for two of the conventions i'm involved in (and which Palladium has a booth at at least one of them) who is herself an owner of two local gaming stores with her husband wont carry the product because it sits on their shelves for month (and keep in mind, that is here in PB's backyard in Michigan) if it sells at all.

The wholesaler who supplies her (with PB material) is the only one in the midwest still carrying PB product.

The company is (straight from Kevin) not making enough money to even pay the employees enough that they dont have to do other work.

I'm not denigrating PB. Kevin is a good writer. The company had a hard time - no joke. But it isn't JUST the malfeasance that cost the company so heavily - readership/sales were down even then, and that was the better part of a decade ago.

Kickstarters just to get a book published. That's not a good sign.

As much as i detest the d20 system (unbalanced doesn't begin to describe it) it has the benefit of being stone-simple to learn. The same cannot be said of Palladium, and what Palladium needs is an influx of new players. You cant tell me that there arent people out there who will spend a lot of money on the hobby; one of my good friends, who is not exactly rolling in the dough, has probably 1,000$ worth of Pathfinder books. He games three times a week, with three different groups. On top of that, probably half of that is purely digital sales which that company gets to keep FAR more of the money.

Why isn't Palladium making that money? Bad rep. Clunky system. Tons of barriers to entry, including an entrenched and unfriendly fandom, as perceived by the outside world.

It isn't, by any means, JUST the system (though if you go back and read my post, im not calling for a total rewrite), but it certainly is a big factor. I busted out all my Rifts books a few weeks ago, and my basement apartment tennant, while he was upstairs chatting, noticed them. He's a 25 year old gamer, who has been gaming since he was 14. He's lived in Michigan his entire life.

He had never even heard of Palladium Books. He was intrigued, and i loaned him one of the several copies of the RMB i have. A couple of days later he came back to me with "man the setting looks awesome and fun but these rules are terrible."

That is what is wrong right now. People like him are who Palladium needs to be courting - disposable income and free time, loves gaming - how is it even possible that this guy who lives in Michigan, PB's "hometown" as it were, and who has gamed fairly obsessively (goes out to various game shops to partake in boardgames, MTG, Warhammer 40k, and tabletop RPGs several nights a week) has never even heard of the company?!

That is what Palladium is fighting. The industry is changing, and Palladium is barely treading water. Adapt or die, and right now, Palladium's not adapting too well.

. So, the fact that the industry is changing via a seeming dumbing down and over simplification of systems as you your self state above " stone-Simple". Palladium should cater to "gamers" who don't want to get a headache because they can't figure the system out? If this is what role playing is coming to maybe the hobby as a whole should die. As far as I'm concerned the D 20 "system" is a complete waste and I wouldn't use games that use it for anything other than fire starter. D&D 2nd edition should have been the END of Dungeons&Dragons. But hey... Just my oppinion.

And that is the attitude and ignoring the actual problems with the system is an example of what Colonel_Tetsuya is talking about. Namely the fact that there are several places where the rules as written are actually broken. And those problems need to be fixed.

One should not have to beat their heads against the wall just to understand the rules. This beating of heads against the wall is not because the rules as intended are bad. But because the way they are written is bad. Palladium should fix that. I should not have to try and interpret what the rules mean. they should be plain for all who read them what they mean.

Tons of barriers to entry, including an entrenched and unfriendly fandom, as perceived by the outside world.

So, the fact that the industry is changing via a seeming dumbing down and over simplification of systems as you your self state above " stone-Simple". Palladium should cater to "gamers" who don't want to get a headache because they can't figure the system out? If this is what role playing is coming to maybe the hobby as a whole should die.

Jay05 That comment is what Colonel_Tetsuya means by an entrenched unfriendly fandom as perceived from the outside world. Just because one does not want to have to deal with poorly written rules does not mean they want things dumbed down. They do want to be able to follow them the first time and not to have to interpret what was actually meant.

so.....if they just rewrite the base books (dont change anything, just put it clearer, and in order) you will be happy right? No changes to the rules, no redoing the magic, psioncs, the weapons.....you just want RUE II right?

eliakon wrote:so.....if they just rewrite the base books (dont change anything, just put it clearer, and in order) you will be happy right? No changes to the rules, no redoing the magic, psioncs, the weapons.....you just want RUE II right?

Pretty much. I am not to aware of many issues aside from that. But what ever problems there are should be dealt with at that time. Basically a RUE done right. Maybe a perception system that makes a bit more sense. The current one is a bolt on that does not really fit with the rest of the system. But any problems that exist should be dealt with.

They should use beta testers to catch any problems.

I would also want clear definitions of what Supernatural creatures are, What creatures of magic are. etc.
Every book in the system should get a sheet that details what changes are needed to work with the new book. Not that I expect to see much. Maybe 1 sheet per book. Mostly to make sure things are consistent across all the books. I would also love to see all the current world books get a going over like they did with the Revised Vampire kingdoms.

The way you put it in this last post actually seems reasonable. However, I STILL have a hard time with the idea that flipping pages back and forth a few extra times is hard. I'm looking at the cat's eye dragon hatchling as I type this. On page 158 it gives racial abilities common to all dragons which Icopy down, including innital spells which all start with no spells, psi which states see individual dragon type, no prob there, skills, which in this case (dragons) lists 2ndary first, not a prob to understand, and then(special area of expertise which take the place of RCC and related skills. Still no prob. Then on the next page, you don't even have to turn. We have allignment, size etc, these are all common traits. Then you have the beginning of the Cat's eye race. Stats are all 3d6 + an adjustment # because... Dragon, easy enough, the MDC, PPE, and ISP come next Then the specific natch abilities for the cat's eye, pretty standard and handled with %. Not too hard to grasp and I haven't turned a page yet still on158-159 then on 160 the racial abilites finish and you turn to the psi section to select your minor psi powers the skills section to pick skills from the list given on the previous page(omg I have top flip a few pages go to the char gen section for the stat bonus table(the only thing aside from the SN strength table that actually applies to dragons, and finally. Skill % numbers which takes a few and then minimal equip cause... Took 15 minutes from start to finish and took longer to type this out! Now since I was challenged earlier, this was the FIRST RUE dragon I have ever made because I prefer two older species that are now not in the main book and it still took me 15 damn minutes! Hard? I think not. Edited to fix a couple of grammar errors.

Jay05 wrote:The way you put it in this last post actually seems reasonable. However, I STILL have a hard time with the idea that flipping pages back and forth a few extra times, I'm looking at the cat's eye dragon hatchling as I type this. On page 158 it gives racial abilities common to all dragons which Icopy down, including innital spells which all start with no spells, psi which states see individual dragon type, no prob there, skills, which in this case (dragons) lists 2ndary first, not a prob to understand, and then(special area of expertise which take the place of RCC and related skills. Still no prob. Then on the next page, you don't even have to turn. We have allignment, size etc, these are all common traits. Then you have the beginning of the Cat's eye race. Stats are all 3d6 + an adjustment # because... Dragon, easy enough, the MDC, PPE, and ISP come next Then the specific natch abilities for the cat's eye, pretty standard and handled with %. Not too hard to grasp and I haven't turned a page yet still on158-159 then on 160 the racial abilites finish and you turn to the psi section to select your minor psi powers the skills section to pick skills from the list given on the previous page(omg I have top flip a few pages go to the char gen section for the stat bonus table(the only thing aside from the SN strength table that actually applies to dragons, and finally. Skill % numbers which takes a few and then minimal equip cause... Took 15 minutes from start to finish and took longer to type this out! Now since I was challenged earlier, this was the FIRST RUE dragon I have ever made because I prefer two older species that are now not in the main book and it still took me 15 damn minutes! Hard? I think not.

now try that while following the rules as presented in RUE starting on page 279... let us know how far you get before going off book...

Jay05 wrote:The way you put it in this last post actually seems reasonable. However, I STILL have a hard time with the idea that flipping pages back and forth a few extra times, I'm looking at the cat's eye dragon hatchling as I type this. On page 158 it gives racial abilities common to all dragons which Icopy down, including innital spells which all start with no spells, psi which states see individual dragon type, no prob there, skills, which in this case (dragons) lists 2ndary first, not a prob to understand, and then(special area of expertise which take the place of RCC and related skills. Still no prob. Then on the next page, you don't even have to turn. We have allignment, size etc, these are all common traits. Then you have the beginning of the Cat's eye race. Stats are all 3d6 + an adjustment # because... Dragon, easy enough, the MDC, PPE, and ISP come next Then the specific natch abilities for the cat's eye, pretty standard and handled with %. Not too hard to grasp and I haven't turned a page yet still on158-159 then on 160 the racial abilites finish and you turn to the psi section to select your minor psi powers the skills section to pick skills from the list given on the previous page(omg I have top flip a few pages go to the char gen section for the stat bonus table(the only thing aside from the SN strength table that actually applies to dragons, and finally. Skill % numbers which takes a few and then minimal equip cause... Took 15 minutes from start to finish and took longer to type this out! Now since I was challenged earlier, this was the FIRST RUE dragon I have ever made because I prefer two older species that are now not in the main book and it still took me 15 damn minutes! Hard? I think not.

You are still looking at it through the eyes of an experienced gamer who knows the system. Instead of looking at it through the eyes of someone new to the system trying to make a character. Who start by following the directions and soon starts running into problems because the rule book approaches it as if everyone has been playing for years and does not pay attention to basic things like this. That keeps new players from picking up the game. Which is bad business decision. Palladium is in desperate need of new players. It continues the reputation of being a broken and unwieldy system. Palladium needs to lose that reputation if they want to stay in business.

Sureshot wrote:

Sureshot wrote:Gurps 3rd books can be adapted to 4th yes, but how many D&D 2nd edition books work with 3rd? It can work both ways, and it heavily depends on what your going for a rewrite. If people want the system to be 'fixed' to the point that all the 'problems, inconsistancies and errors' are eliminated, its going to require such a rewrite that the only thing the same will be the systems. As for being inconsistant, *I* am perfectly fine with the system as it is, and will buy new books as they are released, I would even be willing to look at a tweak, but I will NOT buy a compleatly new system that will mandate me rebuying all my old books.

Again while some versions of D&D are not comptalbe with other versions does not necesarily mean they can't work on a new edition or a major streamlining. Gurps and Hero System and World of Darkness (with their conversion guides) have shown that a new edition does not mean a auto invalidation of older books. Personally I'm not sure if the system will ever gain more populairty without a new edition. And if some don't want to buy the new edition and it's books than don't. PB can't keep taking a loss forvever to make some fans happy.

I remember freely running PFRPG 1st ed characters alongside D+D characters in AD+D adventures. When a simple roll a d20 to hit, AC is backwards AR, add Con to HP- the rest could be done on the fly. A clarified and streamlined next edition does not neccesarily invalidate any older books/occs. Just like the old conversion book showed how to import a 1st ed frpg character to rifts and the N+SS revised had an OCC in the back that fit 1st ed PFRPG. Doesn't have to be a total rules change.

And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out? This is in response to daeglan and DM's posts

ZorValachan wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Sureshot wrote:Gurps 3rd books can be adapted to 4th yes, but how many D&D 2nd edition books work with 3rd? It can work both ways, and it heavily depends on what your going for a rewrite. If people want the system to be 'fixed' to the point that all the 'problems, inconsistancies and errors' are eliminated, its going to require such a rewrite that the only thing the same will be the systems. As for being inconsistant, *I* am perfectly fine with the system as it is, and will buy new books as they are released, I would even be willing to look at a tweak, but I will NOT buy a compleatly new system that will mandate me rebuying all my old books.

Again while some versions of D&D are not comptalbe with other versions does not necesarily mean they can't work on a new edition or a major streamlining. Gurps and Hero System and World of Darkness (with their conversion guides) have shown that a new edition does not mean a auto invalidation of older books. Personally I'm not sure if the system will ever gain more populairty without a new edition. And if some don't want to buy the new edition and it's books than don't. PB can't keep taking a loss forvever to make some fans happy.

I remember freely running PFRPG 1st ed characters alongside D+D characters in AD+D adventures. When a simple roll a d20 to hit, AC is backwards AR, add Con to HP- the rest could be done on the fly. A clarified and streamlined next edition does not neccesarily invalidate any older books/occs. Just like the old conversion book showed how to import a 1st ed frpg character to rifts and the N+SS revised had an OCC in the back that fit 1st ed PFRPG. Doesn't have to be a total rules change.

No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out?

where in the book does it say this? You had the assistance of (stoned or not) an Experienced Player to walk you through the system. Not every one has that advantage. Contrary to what the internet would have you believe we gamers (and Palladium players in particular) are an insular lot.
New people who pick the book up and going in blind can not follow the rules as they are currently laid out. This is a barrier.
You current attitude that any one who cant "just see" that rule XYZ only applies in situation ABC is thick headed or stupid is why we Palladium fans are not well liked in the Hobby community.

It is not dumbing down the rules to put them in a sensible and easily followed lay out.
It is not dumbing down the system to clarify exactly how all aspects of combat interact with each other.
It is not dumbing down the game to explain exactly and thoroughly how the skill system works and when you do and do not roll a check.

Daeglan wrote:ay05 That comment is what Colonel_Tetsuya means by an entrenched unfriendly fandom as perceived from the outside world. Just because one does not want to have to deal with poorly written rules does not mean they want things dumbed down. They do want to be able to follow them the first time and not to have to interpret what was actually meant.

Specifically since the guy im talking about (my tenant) is an avid gamer who plays games that have rules that make Palladium's look downright easy - have you ever tried to play Warhammer 40k? He loves that game and has thousands invested in miniatures for different armies, hundreds of man hours of painting and modding, and the game is super-complex....

and doing great. Because GW frequently publishes updates to the core rules that deal with problems and fix things. They only update the army codexes as needed - which is why the game is on the 6th major edition but some of the Codexes are at version 2 or 3... because in a lot of cases the core rules dont affect the other books.

For all that the d20 system is "stone simple" to learn - it is actually super complex. Actually pick up a few Pathfinder books if any friends have them and read them - there are more rules than Palladium! SItuational modifiers for everything under the sun, complex game mechanics and prestige classes that have their own special rules...

the difference is the way they are presented (they are easy to follow) and that they are edited to NOT cause internal inconsistencies.

That's what we're talking about here.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

ZorValachan wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Sureshot wrote:Gurps 3rd books can be adapted to 4th yes, but how many D&D 2nd edition books work with 3rd? It can work both ways, and it heavily depends on what your going for a rewrite. If people want the system to be 'fixed' to the point that all the 'problems, inconsistancies and errors' are eliminated, its going to require such a rewrite that the only thing the same will be the systems. As for being inconsistant, *I* am perfectly fine with the system as it is, and will buy new books as they are released, I would even be willing to look at a tweak, but I will NOT buy a compleatly new system that will mandate me rebuying all my old books.

Again while some versions of D&D are not comptalbe with other versions does not necesarily mean they can't work on a new edition or a major streamlining. Gurps and Hero System and World of Darkness (with their conversion guides) have shown that a new edition does not mean a auto invalidation of older books. Personally I'm not sure if the system will ever gain more populairty without a new edition. And if some don't want to buy the new edition and it's books than don't. PB can't keep taking a loss forvever to make some fans happy.

I remember freely running PFRPG 1st ed characters alongside D+D characters in AD+D adventures. When a simple roll a d20 to hit, AC is backwards AR, add Con to HP- the rest could be done on the fly. A clarified and streamlined next edition does not neccesarily invalidate any older books/occs. Just like the old conversion book showed how to import a 1st ed frpg character to rifts and the N+SS revised had an OCC in the back that fit 1st ed PFRPG. Doesn't have to be a total rules change.

No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

I totally agree with the last paragraph here.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

ZorValachan wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Sureshot wrote:Gurps 3rd books can be adapted to 4th yes, but how many D&D 2nd edition books work with 3rd? It can work both ways, and it heavily depends on what your going for a rewrite. If people want the system to be 'fixed' to the point that all the 'problems, inconsistancies and errors' are eliminated, its going to require such a rewrite that the only thing the same will be the systems. As for being inconsistant, *I* am perfectly fine with the system as it is, and will buy new books as they are released, I would even be willing to look at a tweak, but I will NOT buy a compleatly new system that will mandate me rebuying all my old books.

Again while some versions of D&D are not comptalbe with other versions does not necesarily mean they can't work on a new edition or a major streamlining. Gurps and Hero System and World of Darkness (with their conversion guides) have shown that a new edition does not mean a auto invalidation of older books. Personally I'm not sure if the system will ever gain more populairty without a new edition. And if some don't want to buy the new edition and it's books than don't. PB can't keep taking a loss forvever to make some fans happy.

I remember freely running PFRPG 1st ed characters alongside D+D characters in AD+D adventures. When a simple roll a d20 to hit, AC is backwards AR, add Con to HP- the rest could be done on the fly. A clarified and streamlined next edition does not neccesarily invalidate any older books/occs. Just like the old conversion book showed how to import a 1st ed frpg character to rifts and the N+SS revised had an OCC in the back that fit 1st ed PFRPG. Doesn't have to be a total rules change.

No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out?

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate what has already been said in KC's thread (which I suggest you read as it was linked to earlier in this thread).
Step 1: Determine Attributes
Wait, aren't I supposed to pick an RCC to know if I have different stats then the standard 3D6?
Step 2: Understanding Damage
How am I supposed to determine my base SDC if I haven't gotten the chance to select an RCC or OCC yet!?
Step 3: Understand MDC
Well this is all great info, but it pertains in no way to actually making a character.
Step 4: Determining Psionics
Again, I haven't been given a chance to see if I have an OCC/RCC that has psionics or isn't allowed to have any.
Step 5: Pick an OCC & Skills
Finally
Step 6: Picking an Alignment
Easy
Step 7: Experience Level System
Good info, but most of it is irrelevant with the exception of HP build over levels.
Step 8: Rounding out the Character
Good end note.

So CLEARLY you cannot make any character by following the rules AS WRITTEN

Doesn't mean it's broken, its just in a bad order, causing alot of back tracking.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out?

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate what has already been said in KC's thread (which I suggest you read as it was linked to earlier in this thread).
Step 1: Determine Attributes
Wait, aren't I supposed to pick an RCC to know if I have different stats then the standard 3D6?
Step 2: Understanding Damage
How am I supposed to determine my base SDC if I haven't gotten the chance to select an RCC or OCC yet!?
Step 3: Understand MDC
Well this is all great info, but it pertains in no way to actually making a character.
Step 4: Determining Psionics
Again, I haven't been given a chance to see if I have an OCC/RCC that has psionics or isn't allowed to have any.
Step 5: Pick an OCC & Skills
Finally
Step 6: Picking an Alignment
Easy
Step 7: Experience Level System
Good info, but most of it is irrelevant with the exception of HP build over levels.
Step 8: Rounding out the Character
Good end note.
So CLEARLY you cannot make any character by following the rules AS WRITTEN

Doesn't mean it's broken, its just in a bad order, causing alot of back tracking.

I conceded in KC's thread that the RAW need back tracking as mentioned by Mech Viper. That doesn't mean they do not work unless someone happens to not be able to figure it out! When did rpgs become a hobby for people who have a problem with a little deductive reasoning? I was under the impression deductive reasoning was required for good roleplaying. Right?

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out?

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate what has already been said in KC's thread (which I suggest you read as it was linked to earlier in this thread).
Step 1: Determine Attributes
Wait, aren't I supposed to pick an RCC to know if I have different stats then the standard 3D6?
Step 2: Understanding Damage
How am I supposed to determine my base SDC if I haven't gotten the chance to select an RCC or OCC yet!?
Step 3: Understand MDC
Well this is all great info, but it pertains in no way to actually making a character.
Step 4: Determining Psionics
Again, I haven't been given a chance to see if I have an OCC/RCC that has psionics or isn't allowed to have any.
Step 5: Pick an OCC & Skills
Finally
Step 6: Picking an Alignment
Easy
Step 7: Experience Level System
Good info, but most of it is irrelevant with the exception of HP build over levels.
Step 8: Rounding out the Character
Good end note.

So CLEARLY you cannot make any character by following the rules AS WRITTEN

Doesn't mean it's broken, its just in a bad order, causing alot of back tracking.

It is broken. That is a very good example of why Palladium has a reputation for being clunky and broken. That reputation keeps new players away from the system. Which is one reason why new gamers do not pick up the book. Which is bad for Palladium. Game stores don't carry the book because Kevin can't manage a deadline. So Game stores got fed up with being burned. If you want Palladium to do well you need to recognize Palladium needs new gamers and needs game stores to carry their books. Both these problems require some changes from Palladium.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out?

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate what has already been said in KC's thread (which I suggest you read as it was linked to earlier in this thread).
Step 1: Determine Attributes
Wait, aren't I supposed to pick an RCC to know if I have different stats then the standard 3D6?
Step 2: Understanding Damage
How am I supposed to determine my base SDC if I haven't gotten the chance to select an RCC or OCC yet!?
Step 3: Understand MDC
Well this is all great info, but it pertains in no way to actually making a character.
Step 4: Determining Psionics
Again, I haven't been given a chance to see if I have an OCC/RCC that has psionics or isn't allowed to have any.
Step 5: Pick an OCC & Skills
Finally
Step 6: Picking an Alignment
Easy
Step 7: Experience Level System
Good info, but most of it is irrelevant with the exception of HP build over levels.
Step 8: Rounding out the Character
Good end note.
So CLEARLY you cannot make any character by following the rules AS WRITTEN

Doesn't mean it's broken, its just in a bad order, causing alot of back tracking.

I conceded in KC's thread that the RAW need back tracking as mentioned by Mech Viper. That doesn't mean they do not work unless someone happens to not be able to figure it out! When did rpgs become a hobby for people who have a problem with a little deductive reasoning? I was under the impression deductive reasoning was required for good roleplaying. Right?

The point isn't that they are impossible to figure out, The point is that making a character, the most basic interaction a player can have with the system, has to be figured out to even use properly. What if the author took the third word and fifth word of every sentence and switched them? Is it still the expectation of a new player to "figure it out" rather than the expectation of the author to write their game in a way that doesn't have to be figured out?

Why would a new player want to figure it out. A new gamer is going to go if character generation is this screwed up what is combat like and find combat has the same problem and go"People are right. This system is broken and not worth my time." That is bad for business. the flaws are so bad people likely are not even going to get to the point of even trying the system.

Deductive reasoning should not be required in figuring our the rules. That is a negative experience for a player. Yes deductive and inductive reasoning are great skills to use for figuring out the GMs story. It should not be required for the rules. That wastes peoples time. Wasting peoples time with your game rules is not a good way to get people to buy your game.

Oh for god sake! The rules weren't that different when I was a kid and I figured them out. I was 15, I'd only been gaming since I was 12 and started with A D&D. Not exactly the easiest game either at least when you're 12. Point I keep trying to make is it is not difficult. If it's too difficult for someone... Damn As for time, 30 minutes once, is not that long.

Jay05 wrote:Oh for god sake! The rules weren't that different when I was a kid and I figured them out. I was 15, I'd only been gaming since I was 12 and started with A D&D. Not exactly the easiest game either at least when you're 12. Point I keep trying to make is it is not difficult. If it's too difficult for someone... Damn As for time, 30 minutes once, is not that long.

Jay05 how would you rather spand you time? Figuring out how to make a character or playing the game? I can make a character in most games in WAY less time. Hell using Gurps Character assistant I can make a Gurps character faster than I can make a Rifts character. A more complicated character generation system takes less time than Palladium. And that is if you know Palladium. what is that going to do to ones desire to play? I have limited Gaming time. i would rather use them playing them deducting out how to make a character. I am sure most people are the same way.

You can get to the playing the game faster in just about every other system. Largely do to poor layout. Why shouldn't we complain about it and get it fixed?

Daeglan wrote:

Jay05 wrote:Oh for god sake! The rules weren't that different when I was a kid and I figured them out. I was 15, I'd only been gaming since I was 12 and started with A D&D. Not exactly the easiest game either at least when you're 12. Point I keep trying to make is it is not difficult. If it's too difficult for someone... Damn As for time, 30 minutes once, is not that long.

Jay05 how would you rather spand you time? Figuring out how to make a character or playing the game? I can make a character in most games in WAY less time. Hell using Gurps Character assistant I can make a Gurps character faster than I can make a Rifts character. A more complicated character generation system takes less time than Palladium. And that is if you know Palladium. what is that going to do to ones desire to play? I have limited Gaming time. i would rather use them playing them deducting out how to make a character. I am sure most people are the same way.

You can get to the playing the game faster in just about every other system. Largely do to poor layout. Why shouldn't we complain about it and get it fixed?

Because 20 years of whining and complaining about it has not worked so far?
You do know the definition of insanity do you not?

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Jay05 wrote:Oh for god sake! The rules weren't that different when I was a kid and I figured them out. I was 15, I'd only been gaming since I was 12 and started with A D&D. Not exactly the easiest game either at least when you're 12. Point I keep trying to make is it is not difficult. If it's too difficult for someone... Damn

ANY kind of difficulty resulting in poor editing/organizing/writing in character creation, one of the most FUNDAMENTAL aspects of the mechanics, causes frustration, confusion, and disuades potential customers regardless of whether or not character creation works beyond the errors. NO ONE on this thread is claiming it is impossible to make a character in the system, what we are saying is that you can't use the written rules to do so. It doesn't take too much to turn off a potential customer from a game. If we want to talk about who can and can't pick things up, who seems to be consistently missing the point?

If these problems for a game that has existed for over 20 years and a system longer than that is still around when so few or it's contemporaries are? (meaning the company was founded within a few years of PB) I mean all of us old timers mid thirties- fifties ( I know some of you are out there) had patience and perseverance enough to work it out, why can't anyone else? Again, I'm intelligent, but I'm no astro-physicist and I made it work. As for missing the point I don't concede that you have a valid one.

Jay05 wrote:And I'll tell you both again, after the first time it was explained to me, My buddy walked me through creating a character when we were 15 and it took a half hour and we had both partaken of a certain medicinal herb at the time. Since the and especially sinceI no longer smoke I average 10 minutes. And as for off book,how the hell is it off book to realize that the Character creation section on pg279 does not apply in any way shape or form to any specific RCC as those are handled indevidually. The section on pg 279 is specifically related to humans! How much thought does it require to figure that out? This is in response to daeglan and DM's posts

It does not take much thought at all to realize that the rules were written for humans, specifically for non-bionic, un-augmented humans, and that following the rules will not allow you to create anything other than un-augmented humans.
It does not take much thought at all to realize that there are no rules written for non-human character creation, or for augmented human character creation.

In other words, it does not take much thought at all to realize that the rules are broken.

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Because correcting the system is going to take time...
More time than the company can afford to expend. (at this time).

I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

Jay05 wrote:I never once have ever tried to say that the rules work as written. It simply doesn't matter because I enjoy the setting enough to work around it and did when I was a new player. So the arguement that the rules are so off putting as to turn people off tells me they must not have been that interested in the first place. Which has been the bottom line of my point this whole thread. Is that clear enough

The key to a successful business is to make it easier for people to use your product than to go somewhere else.
You don't just want to get the people who are REALLY interested in the product, enough to fight their way past multiple obstacles; you want to get everybody, ideally.
Or at least everybody not actively opposed to the idea.
You want to sell to the indifferent, not just the engrossed.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Because correcting the system is going to take time...
More time than the company can afford to expend. (at this time).

Again HOW MANY books are in production right now? Why can't one of those books be a revision? If your customer base is dropping off because many find the rules to be clunky and broken. Do you wait till they all leave or do you start someone working on it now while you still can? Do they pay freelancers upfront or after they get a manuscript?

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Because correcting the system is going to take time...
More time than the company can afford to expend. (at this time).

Again HOW MANY books are in production right now? Why can't one of those books be a revision? If your customer base is dropping off because many find the rules to be clunky and broken. Do you wait till they all leave or do you start someone working on it now while you still can? Do they pay freelancers upfront or after they get a manuscript?

do you even comprehend how much time is involved in the proposed project?
In order for this project to see the light of day in any kind of timely manner it will require that the company dedicate ALL of its resources to just that one project. That means no no new product for a year or two. That means no little side projects (which means the company will have to burn a lot bridges).
It means we see absolutely nothing from the company during that time...
Palladium is NOT WotC they dont have a multinational parent company to keep them afloat during that time.

Yes kevin could give it to a Freelancer to do...
But you wont see it for years...
Contrary to popular belief Freelancing is not a high paying gig. Most have second jobs and families so they have to dedicate their spare time to the project. And then there are inevitable calls to kevin to clarify this rule or that one...
This is not something that can just be hammered out in a couple of weeks.

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Daeglan wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:No it does not... but; re-organizing and clarifying the rules for ease of introduction is not something that can be done in just a few days time.
And that brings us to Palladiums current conundrum.
Do they stop producing for the year or two it will take to do this? (they are going to have to dedicate their full attention to just this project to get it done with any modicum of speed)
Or do they continue as they have producing new product?
One ensures a revenue of some sort the other is a huge gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability of failure.

How many books do they currently have in production? Why couldn't they have one of those books be a Revised and clarified Core rules?

Because correcting the system is going to take time...
More time than the company can afford to expend. (at this time).

Again HOW MANY books are in production right now? Why can't one of those books be a revision?

Because re-inventing the wheel is more difficult than making more wheels.