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rtsurfer wrote:Do you think most people really care about the details that we argue over and what is or isn't official canon?

Just based on my own experiences during my six year tenure over on robotech.com and all of the questions that I've received via e-mail and instant messenger since my posting privileges were revoked for "heresy", I'd have to say yes. Mind you, it would be remiss of me not to go one step further and qualify that remark by saying that it tends to be the newer members of the Robotech fandom who are interested in issues of continuity and canon, rather than the bitter and disgruntled "old guard".

rtsurfer wrote:Don't they just want a useful and enjoyable product that allows them to suspend disbelief?

Y'know... I could say something here, but my brand of tough honesty would almost certainly end up being interpreted as saying something untoward.

jaymz wrote:For that you still need a relatively coherent base to start from and the powers that be have essentially not done the best they can in giving us that

At least Tommy Yune made an attempt to clean up the continuity and give us a relatively coherent base for the new canon. It's a step in the right direction, IMO.




NB: I'm gonna have to pare Anjay's down for the sake of readability before it ends up as a horrible nested-quote nightmare resembling an infinity shot.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Well, for one, the need for there to be "the" story, instead of stories told in a really interesting setting is neither universal nor absolute. And I've been able to discuss Robotech for decades now; sometimes it gets ugly, usually it gets passionate (not necessarily a bad thing), and many times the different bases, which factoids and tidbits and clues came from which point in which story, is the coolest part of the whole thing.

If being able to hold a civil discussion a particular aspect of a series without having to first spend a hundred or so posts arguing the validity of each person's interpretation of a single line of dialogue to no useful end is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Totally 100% agree they need to know what they're actually taking into account in order to make new product, what happened and what didn't, and that this can be used as a common base.

Uh... wait, doesn't this seem a little paradoxical? I mean, you've spent the bulk of your post asserting that having an official canon defined by the creative director is thirty-one flavors of evil, and now you're pulling a 180 and telling us you 100% agree that such a thing is essential to producing future Robotech narratives.

Sgt Anjay wrote:100% disagree there must only be one, draconian version of Robotech that disavows everything else because t it cannot be enjoyed as a version of Robotech without ruining everything always foreverz!!!.

That the old comics, novels, and what have you are all non-canon these days really shouldn't be detracting anything from your enjoyment of them... unless you're not really as indifferent to canon as you'd like to appear... it just means that they're not part of the official story of Robotech that's being told, and not applicable to elements in its narrative. As you say, they can still be enjoyed as a version of Robotech... just not the definitive version of Robotech's story.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The retcon-hammer's never popular. The efficacy of top-down "this is how the story should be" coming after the fact is pretty controversial...just ask a Legion of Super-Heroes fan, or Spider-man fans, just to start with.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I could think of a couple retcons that would be popular... and a few that were. Tossing the pre-2001 printed materials went over pretty well in Robotech's fandom, at least with the newer fans. There certainly wasn't much love for the novels when I was active on robotech.com, to the extent that the admins of the site had to chime in and threaten bannings for anyone who dismissed threads about the novels as a waste of time or space. I'd also be prepared to bet that having Lucas retcon Jar-Jar Binks out of existence would have the Star Wars fans dancing in the street.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Also...I still see three identifiable ships in during Southern Cross.

And I see three variations on the Tristar-class platform... ain't it grand?

josephddm wrote:To Seto:
For me they are still alot smart,because they put things right every certain time period to include all the new animation,designs,character instead of letting time pass and let things fall into oblivion.

Oh, there's no denying they're plenty smart... if they weren't, Macross wouldn't have enjoyed a string of hit titles over the decades. In part, it's those continuity materials that the creators put together during the production process that help the many, MANY titles in Macross come together into a cohesive whole while still giving the impression that we have yet to see more than just the tiniest sliver of Macross's universe. The way that Macross's creators have made a habit of trying to mix up the formula in each new title and bring in a new and engaging cast each time has helped keep it fresh.

josephddm wrote:Also HG has enough animation and designs to establish their canon because is what they are trying to do from the start of the Shadow Chronicles project.

Really, I doubt they do. From a very early stage, Robotech has been stagnating itself by fixating on a handful of established characters to the exclusion of everyone else. Even though Southern Cross is the nominal linchpin holding Robotech's story together, EVERYTHING in Robotech revolves around the Macross Saga. The Masters Saga had to make Southern Cross's protagonist into Max and Miriya's daughter to make her even the slightest bit tolerable, the entire New Generation is about Scott and crew running interference behind Invid lines while they wait for Rick Hunter to come pull their fat out of the fire, Untold Story was originally conceived as a Macross Saga side-story, and even after being altered still had a Macross Saga macguffin at the center of its plot, Robotech II: the Sentinels was the continuing adventures of the Macross Saga cast, and Shadow Chronicles was just an alarmingly Rick-centric continuation of that. (I guess, when you think about it like that, the ending of RTSC puts a whole new meaning to being Rick-rolled)

Apart from the "original 85", the Shadow Chronicles movie, and the handful of comics produced after '01, what do they have? The only title currently in production is one that was already revealed to just be a retread of a story they've already told twice in the new canon, and everything else has been stalled in development hell since it was announced. If they REALLY padded it, they might have enough material for five or six issues of a Macross Chronicle-style encyclopedia... and at that point, why not just print it as a single book and have done with it?

If it weren't for Palladium and the RPG, there would be nothing worthwhile going in for RT at all, which makes it all the more important for Palladium to get it in gear and get the New Gen book and the Spaceships book in the hands of the fans as soon as possible.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Do you think most people really care about the details that we argue over and what is or isn't official canon?

Just based on my own experiences during my six year tenure over on robotech.com and all of the questions that I've received via e-mail and instant messenger since my posting privileges were revoked for "heresy", I'd have to say yes. Mind you, it would be remiss of me not to go one step further and qualify that remark by saying that it tends to be the newer members of the Robotech fandom who are interested in issues of continuity and canon, rather than the bitter and disgruntled "old guard".

I said "MOST" not the few who go to rt.com or post on other boards after they are banned or get tired of rt.com.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

rtsurfer wrote:Don't they just want a useful and enjoyable product that allows them to suspend disbelief?

Y'know... I could say something here, but my brand of tough honesty would almost certainly end up being interpreted as saying something untoward.

What, that robo-tech fans will buy anything HG licenses, no matter how big a piece of crap it is?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

jaymz wrote:For that you still need a relatively coherent base to start from and the powers that be have essentially not done the best they can in giving us that

At least Tommy Yune made an attempt to clean up the continuity and give us a relatively coherent base for the new canon. It's a step in the right direction, IMO.

How is making the 85 original episodes canon cleaning up continuity when they already were defacto canon, and the new canon is anything he produces except the games which were supposed to be. Besides, there supposedly isn't a canon, its a core and extended continuity? The extended continuity media wasn't thrown out its just selectively used when it serves their purposes.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Well, for one, the need for there to be "the" story, instead of stories told in a really interesting setting is neither universal nor absolute. And I've been able to discuss Robotech for decades now; sometimes it gets ugly, usually it gets passionate (not necessarily a bad thing), and many times the different bases, which factoids and tidbits and clues came from which point in which story, is the coolest part of the whole thing.

If being able to hold a civil discussion a particular aspect of a series without having to first spend a hundred or so posts arguing the validity of each person's interpretation of a single line of dialogue to no useful end is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

Its because people by nature want or feel a need to be right, especially when they're passionate over something. Some people take a coy approach instead of trying to hammer their point home. How is extensively laying out your perspective/opinion, declaring it the "CORRECT" or "RIGHT" conclusion, pretending to move on, then occasionally taking little jabs really any different.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Totally 100% agree they need to know what they're actually taking into account in order to make new product, what happened and what didn't, and that this can be used as a common base.

Uh... wait, doesn't this seem a little paradoxical? I mean, you've spent the bulk of your post asserting that having an official canon defined by the creative director is thirty-one flavors of evil, and now you're pulling a 180 and telling us you 100% agree that such a thing is essential to producing future Robotech narratives.

Keeping a record of past continuity helps keep things straight when you proceed with a new work, but why make such a big deal about it. Explain to people how all of the robo-tech materials are related and let them decide what they want to do with it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:100% disagree there must only be one, draconian version of Robotech that disavows everything else because t it cannot be enjoyed as a version of Robotech without ruining everything always foreverz!!!.

That the old comics, novels, and what have you are all non-canon these days really shouldn't be detracting anything from your enjoyment of them... unless you're not really as indifferent to canon as you'd like to appear... it just means that they're not part of the official story of Robotech that's being told, and not applicable to elements in its narrative. As you say, they can still be enjoyed as a version of Robotech... just not the definitive version of Robotech's story.

Some people are fixated on what's canon or not, those people might be cheating themselves of something they would really enjoy if they gave it a chance even though it is non-canon. Making people think HG has disavowed all of the extended continiuty discourages people from searching out often hard to find products.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:The retcon-hammer's never popular. The efficacy of top-down "this is how the story should be" coming after the fact is pretty controversial...just ask a Legion of Super-Heroes fan, or Spider-man fans, just to start with.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I could think of a couple retcons that would be popular... and a few that were. Tossing the pre-2001 printed materials went over pretty well in Robotech's fandom, at least with the newer fans. There certainly wasn't much love for the novels when I was active on robotech.com, to the extent that the admins of the site had to chime in and threaten bannings for anyone who dismissed threads about the novels as a waste of time or space. I'd also be prepared to bet that having Lucas retcon Jar-Jar Binks out of existence would have the Star Wars fans dancing in the street.

How many people have actually read a significant number of the pre-2001 comics? So what you're saying is newer fans who have most likely never read a pre-2001 comic thought it was a good idea to toss them. Informed decision making there, maybe it was because rt.com/HG gave them the impression they were being decanonized, hum?
That's funny because the years I was active on rt.com we explained to those who loved the novels how they differed from the tv series and tried to answer questions concerning all versions of robo-tech. In fact a couple of the regular posters and mods knew the novels very well. This is interesting considering four of the omnibus editions have just been released as ebooks.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Also...I still see three identifiable ships in during Southern Cross.

And I see three variations on the Tristar-class platform... ain't it grand?

Here you are taking one of your little jabs, hypocrite?
You are the only person I ever recall arguing they are simply variants of the Tristar as opposed to three classes. They look like different classes to me, but of course you're right.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

josephddm wrote:Also HG has enough animation and designs to establish their canon because is what they are trying to do from the start of the Shadow Chronicles project.

Really, I doubt they do. From a very early stage, Robotech has been stagnating itself by fixating on a handful of established characters to the exclusion of everyone else. Even though Southern Cross is the nominal linchpin holding Robotech's story together, EVERYTHING in Robotech revolves around the Macross Saga. The Masters Saga had to make Southern Cross's protagonist into Max and Miriya's daughter to make her even the slightest bit tolerable, the entire New Generation is about Scott and crew running interference behind Invid lines while they wait for Rick Hunter to come pull their fat out of the fire, Untold Story was originally conceived as a Macross Saga side-story, and even after being altered still had a Macross Saga macguffin at the center of its plot, Robotech II: the Sentinels was the continuing adventures of the Macross Saga cast, and Shadow Chronicles was just an alarmingly Rick-centric continuation of that. (I guess, when you think about it like that, the ending of RTSC puts a whole new meaning to being Rick-rolled)

Dana could have just as easily been Scott and Ariel's or Lancer and Sera's daughter, or Scott could have been Max and Miriya's son. Yeah, it does tend to revolve around Macross Saga because like the original Macross its a popular animation, and more people seem to like the Macross Saga characters than the other two. HG developed Macross centric concepts because they had a better chance of at least getting them started on the shoulders of Macross Saga. It doesn't help that in recent years HG has tried to distance the three sagas from each other and actively appears to favor Macross Saga over the other two. At least back in the 80's and 90's there were substantial products from all three sagas.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Well, for one, the need for there to be "the" story, instead of stories told in a really interesting setting is neither universal nor absolute. And I've been able to discuss Robotech for decades now; sometimes it gets ugly, usually it gets passionate (not necessarily a bad thing), and many times the different bases, which factoids and tidbits and clues came from which point in which story, is the coolest part of the whole thing.

If being able to hold a civil discussion a particular aspect of a series without having to first spend a hundred or so posts arguing the validity of each person's interpretation of a single line of dialogue to no useful end is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

Feel free. I've enjoyed my over a decade-and-a-half, minus the occasional interregnum, of discussing Robotech online, and cannot agree that I'm doing it wrong just because others would like it different.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Totally 100% agree they need to know what they're actually taking into account in order to make new product, what happened and what didn't, and that this can be used as a common base.

Uh... wait, doesn't this seem a little paradoxical? I mean, you've spent the bulk of your post asserting that having an official canon defined by the creative director is thirty-one flavors of evil, and now you're pulling a 180 and telling us you 100% agree that such a thing is essential to producing future Robotech narratives.

Nope, not paradoxical at all, though since you have your own perspective on things that is so diametrically different from my own I'm not surprised you can't identify with my point.

You'll notice I didn't say that the version of Robotech used by HG to generate new product has to be exclusive and the only acknowledge version of Robotech, and that everyone should toe the line to whatever HG decides on any particular event or be a heretic (sucks when that happens, doesn't it?). All I said was that they do need to know what the background of their own stories are, and that this baseline can be a useful tool for discussion between folks whose preferences run counter to each other.

I also don't think the present officially listed status quo, of core continuity and secondary continuity, is any sort of flavor of evil.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:100% disagree there must only be one, draconian version of Robotech that disavows everything else because t it cannot be enjoyed as a version of Robotech without ruining everything always foreverz!!!.

That the old comics, novels, and what have you are all non-canon these days really shouldn't be detracting anything from your enjoyment of them... unless you're not really as indifferent to canon as you'd like to appear... it just means that they're not part of the official story of Robotech that's being told, and not applicable to elements in its narrative. As you say, they can still be enjoyed as a version of Robotech... just not the definitive version of Robotech's story.

Being dictated to will always get my goat, regardless of whether or not I still enjoy as much as I ever did various story-arcs within the comics, or particular passages from the novels, or certain plotlines from the RPG. I don't think its necessary, and have doubts as to its merits, efficacy, and longevity.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:The retcon-hammer's never popular. The efficacy of top-down "this is how the story should be" coming after the fact is pretty controversial...just ask a Legion of Super-Heroes fan, or Spider-man fans, just to start with.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I could think of a couple retcons that would be popular... and a few that were. Tossing the pre-2001 printed materials went over pretty well in Robotech's fandom, at least with the newer fans.

And they were tossed so thoroughly that they're officially Secondary Continuity and I can look up a list of pretty much every Robotech comic ever published on Robotech.com. That new fans get a version of Robotech for them to enjoy isn't a bad thing. That only the version they enjoy be acknowledged and everything else flushed down the tubes is. They did that, for example, with the Legion of Super-Heroes, which would be the reason I went ahead and used that as an example. There are now three to four versions (depending on who you ask) of the Legion thanks to creative teams coming and going and now years later they just went ahead and made all the different versions of the Legion explicitly coexist in their own universes, implied one joint adventure, and chronicled another.

Seto Kaiba wrote:There certainly wasn't much love for the novels when I was active on robotech.com, to the extent that the admins of the site had to chime in and threaten bannings for anyone who dismissed threads about the novels as a waste of time or space. I'd also be prepared to bet that having Lucas retcon Jar-Jar Binks out of existence would have the Star Wars fans dancing in the street.

That view of the novels is very very telling. It says more about the segment of the fandom which is vocal on RT.com than the real history of the fandom. Though, of course, the history can certainly inform why that is so. And it does make perfect sense for new fans to echo Purism. I'm even with sticking to something streamlined as a good baseline for continuity. But regardless, I'm not particularly inclined to take your opinion of what Robotech fans really want as a reason to abandon what I believe or want, and I don't think heavy doses of retcon have generally proven a good thing when its been done.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:Also...I still see three identifiable ships in during Southern Cross.

And I see three variations on the Tristar-class platform... ain't it grand?

Yup. Its good to see you go with a viewpoint that is non-canon as per Robotech.com.

Zor Disciple wrote:If some corporate suit somewhere is laying down the law on what is and what is canon, then there is no reason to debate the issues. You just need to buy the next chronicles magazine to be told what the answer is.

Unsurprisingly, your view on this is more than a little skewed... it's not "some corporate suit" who comes up with the material for publications like Macross Chronicle, it's the people who actually created the series. As I said earlier, it's an approach that the people in charge of Robotech have imitated on several occasions with Robotech Art 1 and The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

rtsurfer wrote:Don't they just want a useful and enjoyable product that allows them to suspend disbelief?

Y'know... I could say something here, but my brand of tough honesty would almost certainly end up being interpreted as saying something untoward.[/quote]
What, that robo-tech fans will buy anything HG licenses, no matter how big a piece of crap it is?[/quote]
Actually, that isn't what I was tilting at... but on balance, I suppose it's just as true. Just curious, why are you hyphenating "Robotech"?

rtsurfer wrote:[...] Besides, there supposedly isn't a canon, its a core and extended continuity? The extended continuity media wasn't thrown out its just selectively used when it serves their purposes.

As I've already mentioned, the vague and nebulous "anything goes" approach to continuity that Harmony Gold describes on robotech.com doesn't match what Harmony Gold staff has said in interviews about the subject.

rtsurfer wrote:Some people are fixated on what's canon or not, those people might be cheating themselves of something they would really enjoy if they gave it a chance even though it is non-canon.

It's a pleasant enough thought, but I think you might be leaping to an incorrect conclusion about me. I have, in fact, given those publications a fair chance. I own most of them (at time of writing, my comics collection is short two issues of Robotech: Clone) and I'd say I've read them all at some point or other. I've always worked to a philosophy of "don't knock it 'till you've tried it" with cinema and literature, and I can say that I tried the various printed forms of Robotech and didn't like them for the most part.

rtsurfer wrote:Making people think HG has disavowed all of the extended continiuty discourages people from searching out often hard to find products.

Admittedly, yeah... having Harmony Gold employees telling people these titles don't count anymore because of a lack of creative oversight would tend to make people disinclined to check them out. Didn't stop me though. (That actually persuaded me to look for more of them out of morbid curiosity)

rtsurfer wrote:That's funny because the years I was active on rt.com we explained to those who loved the novels how they differed from the tv series and tried to answer questions concerning all versions of robo-tech. In fact a couple of the regular posters and mods knew the novels very well.

If you were active early on, then I don't doubt it... things went straight to hell in a handbasket from about 2004 on, once someone at head office apparently gave Steve a fun-ectomy and the witch-hunting started up again. The thread threatening a ban for anyone who was bagging on the novels and old comics excessively was pinned for a few years, and even now there's still a little going on every now and again despite the ongoing decline of that site.

rtsurfer wrote:This is interesting considering four of the omnibus editions have just been released as ebooks.

You know Harmony Gold... never a new product when a re-release will do... really underlines the necessity of getting the only new material coming out (Palladium's New Gen book) out the door in a timely fashion.

Sgt Anjay wrote:[...] though since you have your own perspective on things that is so diametrically different from my own I'm not surprised you can't identify with my point.

Seems like a fair assessment, I would've said the same of your perspective.

Sgt Anjay wrote:You'll notice I didn't say that the version of Robotech used by HG to generate new product has to be exclusive and the only acknowledge version of Robotech, and that everyone should toe the line to whatever HG decides on any particular event or be a heretic (sucks when that happens, doesn't it?).

I actually find the persistent accusations of heresy quite amusing... particularly since it's been people in authority at the official Robotech website doing the accusing for the most part. The way they talk about me, it's kinda like being a super-villain... 'cept I don't have to dress like a prat and I don't have to worry about being accosted by a bulky fellow wearing technicolor briefs over spandex... at least, for as long as I continue to avoid the convention circuit.

Sgt Anjay wrote:That view of the novels is very very telling. It says more about the segment of the fandom which is vocal on RT.com than the real history of the fandom.

I dunno about that, I've heard plenty about the early history of the online fandom from quite a few "old timers" before, and it would seem more like a continuation of the status quo than anything else. Love it or leave it, the new canon is here to stay... at least until Shadow Rising finally goes under and we end up with creative director #3. Subsequent works, like the New Generation sourcebook, are going to follow it because that's what Tommy wants to do with Robotech and unfortunately it's his show for the duration of his tenure in that office.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Just curious, why are you hyphenating "Robotech"?

Its a thing that started over at rtx. Some of us have been using it to remind Memo of a stunt he pulled over there. Guess I've gotten in the habit.

rtsurfer wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Just curious, why are you hyphenating "Robotech"?

Its a thing that started over at rtx. Some of us have been using it to remind Memo of a stunt he pulled over there. Guess I've gotten in the habit.

Oh, that... yeah, we're on the same page there now. I heard about that secondhand after word of it reached MacrossWorld's RT & HG thread. Crazy stuff.

Zor Disciple wrote:Tell yourself it's not corporate if it makes you feel better.

rtsurfer wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Just curious, why are you hyphenating "Robotech"?

Its a thing that started over at rtx. Some of us have been using it to remind Memo of a stunt he pulled over there. Guess I've gotten in the habit.

Oh gods please don't remind me of Memo's article editing in order to make it look like an asian actor panned doing a robotech movie.....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:That view of the novels is very very telling. It says more about the segment of the fandom which is vocal on RT.com than the real history of the fandom.

I dunno about that, I've heard plenty about the early history of the online fandom from quite a few "old timers" before, and it would seem more like a continuation of the status quo than anything else.

The novels near-universally disparaged except for a tiny minority in need of protection from insta-nuke obliteration by the unopposed Purist majority should they try to post?

Uh, no. That is not how it was. It was far from one-sided. The McKinneyists easily had numbers equal to any other subset of the online fandom, and larger than most, who seemed to swear the hokey error-riddled cheesy toon was turned into gold by the pen of McKinney, and thery're so much more internally consistent so they should obviously be the True Robotech etc. etc. The widespread arguments and nerd rage of those flame wars between McKinneyists and Purists makes any Robotech back-and-forth I've seen recently look like Chutes and Ladders; they took down mailing lists and message boards, or at least caused them to collapse in on themselves.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Love it or leave it, the new canon is here to stay... at least until Shadow Rising finally goes under and we end up with creative director #3. Subsequent works, like the New Generation sourcebook, are going to follow it because that's what Tommy wants to do with Robotech and unfortunately it's his show for the duration of his tenure in that office.

I didn't become a McKinneyist when the only Robotech was novels being written, and I certainly wasn't touting the comics as gospel when they were the only Robotech coming out, claiming RPG as Truth outside of...well, here...was asking for flames even if I'd been inclined. Another version of Robotech with HG's corporate seal of approval and stemming from a retcon to the finale of New Generation? Be still my beating heart. I'll enjoy new Robotech product for what its worth, like any other Robotech stuff that's comes out over the last couple decades; I'm not obliged to acknowledge it as the One True Way.

My way is my way everyone elses way can kiss my butt That includes Tommy Yune and his 2 lackeys at HG as well.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The McKinneyists easily had numbers equal to any other subset of the online fandom, and larger than most, who seemed to swear the hokey error-riddled cheesy toon was turned into gold by the pen of McKinney, and thery're so much more internally consistent so they should obviously be the True Robotech etc. etc. The widespread arguments and nerd rage of those flame wars between McKinneyists and Purists makes any Robotech back-and-forth I've seen recently look like Chutes and Ladders; they took down mailing lists and message boards, or at least caused them to collapse in on themselves.

Ah, memories of the old Robotech Message Board days. I remember quite a number of arguments I started about how the REF could not sustain itself or operations if it was only the SDF-03 and not a fleet.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Sgt Anjay wrote:The McKinneyists easily had numbers equal to any other subset of the online fandom, and larger than most, who seemed to swear the hokey error-riddled cheesy toon was turned into gold by the pen of McKinney, and thery're so much more internally consistent so they should obviously be the True Robotech etc. etc. The widespread arguments and nerd rage of those flame wars between McKinneyists and Purists makes any Robotech back-and-forth I've seen recently look like Chutes and Ladders; they took down mailing lists and message boards, or at least caused them to collapse in on themselves.

Ah, memories of the old Robotech Message Board days. I remember quite a number of arguments I started about how the REF could not sustain itself or operations if it was only the SDF-03 and not a fleet.

That is EXACTLEY why I like the way the uRRG proposed things.

josephddm wrote:Well,is estimated that the book would be released this Spring.Hope it is.

your right Spring,,,in Spring of 2012

ZINO wrote:your right Spring,,,in Spring of 2012

ZING!

ZINO wrote:

josephddm wrote:Well,is estimated that the book would be released this Spring.Hope it is.

your right Spring,,,in Spring of 2012

It's kind of sad, but I can totally see that being the case... especially since Harmony Gold is backpedaling from their estimated 2011 release date for their New Generation side story OVA and saying they only plan to have it finished this year at some point. Somehow, I don't have any trouble picturing Harmony Gold deliberately delaying the release of the New Gen book as part of the misguided belief that they can increase sales of both by promoting them together at next year's Robotech convention tour.

(Incidentally, why don't we have a "projectile vomiting" smiley for moments like this?)

you mean liek this one?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Somehow, I don't have any trouble picturing Harmony Gold deliberately delaying the release of the New Gen book as part of the misguided belief that they can increase sales of both by promoting them together at next year's Robotech convention tour.

I had the same thought on the topic a few weeks back.

josephddm wrote:From HG in rt.com,is said that the Rising movie(continuation for the RT:TSC)only would appear when the RLAM project reaches half development stage[...]

So, to put that into context... the next installment of Robotech's "Shadow Saga" is on indefinite hold while Harmony Gold waits for Warner Bros to start production on a movie that, thus far, both the studio and the producers have shown no interest in making. I really have to wonder how long it'll take Harmony Gold to realize that the live action movie likely will not be made, and just get on with finishing Shadow Rising. At this pace, I wouldn't expect any continuation of the "Shadow Saga" story before 2015 at the absolute earliest, assuming they actually decide to give up on the live-action movie.

josephddm wrote:and the Sera movie would be finished in this 2011 but thhey haven't yet a distributor

That's IF they can find a distributor willing to take the film... they nearly couldn't with the Shadow Chronicles movie. I've heard that they asked for some pretty absurd terms in their distribution agreement, and that their relationship with FUNimation has been rocky to the point where they don't want to take another RT title.

Well to get this thread back on track, it looks like they will try to get the book out by May. So to be on the safe side, I will go for somewhere in the Summer time.

Alpha 11 wrote:Well to get this thread back on track, it looks like they will try to get the book out by May. So to be on the safe side, I will go for somewhere in the Summer time.

This will be dependant on if Kevin decides to do teh Vampire Sourcebook after hte revised kingdoms or after new gen. If he does it after VK revised we wont likely see new gen before this fall.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

josephddm wrote:From HG in rt.com,is said that the Rising movie(continuation for the RT:TSC)only would appear when the RLAM project reaches half development stage[...]

So, to put that into context... the next installment of Robotech's "Shadow Saga" is on indefinite hold while Harmony Gold waits for Warner Bros to start production on a movie that, thus far, both the studio and the producers have shown no interest in making. I really have to wonder how long it'll take Harmony Gold to realize that the live action movie likely will not be made, and just get on with finishing Shadow Rising. At this pace, I wouldn't expect any continuation of the "Shadow Saga" story before 2015 at the absolute earliest, assuming they actually decide to give up on the live-action movie.

josephddm wrote:and the Sera movie would be finished in this 2011 but thhey haven't yet a distributor

That's IF they can find a distributor willing to take the film... they nearly couldn't with the Shadow Chronicles movie. I've heard that they asked for some pretty absurd terms in their distribution agreement, and that their relationship with FUNimation has been rocky to the point where they don't want to take another RT title.

Great Googily Moogily....it is like HG can't help but continue to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to the franchise that they are best known for.

Shadow Chronicles gave them a great starting point for a new series but they refuse to go ahead with it because (sarcasm on) obviously they have more important things to produce. (sarcasm off)

You go to their site and you are greated by the RT themesong....obviously it is just one of many things they are known for.

Chris0013 wrote:Great Googily Moogily.... it is like HG can't help but continue to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to the franchise that they are best known for.

So... what part of that is a surprise again? I mean, the one constant in the franchise after all these years is that every attempt to continue the story of the Robotech series has ended in failure. It's partly because Harmony Gold has never had the money or the creative talent pool to make their own original material at the same level of quality as contemporary anime, and partly because they don't understand the industry or their audience.

Chris0013 wrote:Shadow Chronicles gave them a great starting point for a new series but they refuse to go ahead with it because (sarcasm on) obviously they have more important things to produce. (sarcasm off)

It's not really by choice... as Tommy Yune has let slip on a few occasions, the reason that they're not working on Shadow Rising is because the higher-ups are hoping that they'll be able to cross-promote Shadow Rising with the live action movie and use its buzz to convince their investors to give it a bigger budget than Shadow Chronicles had. It's a choice between that and another shoestring-budget flick, since the franchise's track record to date isn't exactly encouraging people to invest generously in Robotech.

Chris0013 wrote:
Shadow Chronicles gave them a great starting point for a new series

only if talking off from a steaming pile of crap is a "great" starting point...
The movie lacked any real depth and no real development of the polt in anyway, besides adding a few cup sizes to a few female characters... (Note Marlene's EE cups, that were maybe A's when Rand saw her nude in Robotech..... )

Colonel Wolfe wrote:only if talking off from a steaming pile of crap is a "great" starting point...

's far as starting points go, it'd be hard to do much worse than the Shadow Chronicles movie... but it's also the only jumping-off point Harmony Gold has for resuming the story of the Robotech series. Every other attempt to continue the Robotech story failed and fell apart before it could be released, so Shadow Chronicles is all they have.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The movie lacked any real depth and no real development of the plot in anyway, besides adding a few cup sizes to a few female characters... (Note Marlene's EE cups, that were maybe A's when Rand saw her nude in Robotech..... )

Sure, the Shadow Chronicles "OVA" was a teaspoon-shallow train wreck that didn't do much to advance the plot other than retconning in yet another batch of aliens hell-bent on destroying humanity, but it could easily be argued that moving the story forward was never the point of the film anyway. Part of the reason they made it was to prove that all of their talk about Robotech making a comeback wasn't just more empty promises (ironic, isn't it?) and to bring new fans into the franchise to combat the fact that the average RT fan is pushing 40 by appealing to younger (teenage) viewers. Of course, it failed spectacularly in both areas, since they haven't followed up on it with a sequel and its efforts to appeal to a younger audience with T&A went to waste when the film was basically ignored by everyone outside the Robotech fandom. Pretty much the only thing the film succeeded in doing was shaking down nostalgic Robotech fans for a few more bucks by continuing to play bait-and-switch with the perennial fan favorites from Macross's cast.

josephddm wrote:It is clear that this movie is only a refitting work for the last episode of the Next Generation(MOSPEADA)saga,that's all.Is a sort of special long lasting episode or a farewell,soon we will return with Robotech,of the season as if they had expected to return the next week with the new work and greater ideas or something like that [...]

By all accounts, that's exactly what they expected to do... shortly after the release of the Shadow Chronicles "OVA" on DVD, Tommy Yune was guesstimating that they'd get the sequel out in about two years time. If not for the live-action movie deal that Harmony Gold is so obsessed with, I'd say we would have a 50-50 chance of having the RTSC sequel out and being complained about by now. S'long as Harmony Gold thinks that WB is going to do the live-action movie and make Robotech the next big thing, they're not going to get back on task and finish Shadow Rising.

josephddm wrote:Is not only a huge piece of crap IT IS A VERY EXPENSIVE AND HUGE PIECE OF CRAP. [...]
Raise some funds for Robotech...

Nah, the Shadow Chronicles movie was made on an aggressively tiny budget. As per Tommy Yune's remarks on it, the whole thing was made on a budget of less than $1 million, and that's counting salaries for the SAG voice actors and "special guest stars". The whole reason Shadow Rising is on hold is the vain hope the hype from the live-action movie deal would bring in more generous investment deals so that Shadow Rising would get a bigger budget than its predecessor.

josephddm wrote:If they are (HG) waiting for he benefits of the RLAM to continue with Robotech, maybe then they must start to find another more serious jobs, because Transformers was one of a kind of success movie and in most part thanks to the animated series of the 80's and the toys line, something that from HG looks like they never takes serious about it [...]

's like I said earlier... Harmony Gold just doesn't understand the industry. I'll admit, I'm kind of perplexed by Harmony Gold's apparent belief that the live-action Robotech movie's a sure-fire hit, and that it'll be Warner's rival to the hugely popular and successful Michael Bay Transformers movies. It seems particularly shortsighted when you what's become of it since the project was announced. Honestly, I have to wonder if this was motivated by their more recent, ridiculously exaggerated assessment of Robotech's influence on the anime industry, or it McKeever's distorted assessment of Robotech's ratings from the 80's has anything to do with it.

Well, it looks like they will be really pushing to get the book done, so I am even more certain of a Summer release at the latest.

I'll say again, it all depends on if he wants to get the Vamp Sourcebook out first or not.

Right now he is 50/50 in doing the Vamp Sourcebook along with the Revised Vamp Kingdoms. If he DOES, then precedent of the past would lean towards the New gen book NOT coming out this summer. If he DOESN'T then a summer release is possible but still only to believed when it actually happens

jaymz wrote:I'll say again, it all depends on if he wants to get the Vamp Sourcebook out first or not.

Right now he is 50/50 in doing the Vamp Sourcebook along with the Revised Vamp Kingdoms. If he DOES, then precedent of the past would lean towards the New gen book NOT coming out this summer. If he DOESN'T then a summer release is possible but still only to believed when it actually happens

I'm just tring to think positive. But you could be right, I just hope you're not.

josephddm wrote:For me too it is awesome how great is the self confidence of Mr.Yune and the HG staff with the RLAM or maybe they have had achieve a point of no return with that because they had invested all their money on that(pretty fools!!! )

Ah, I doubt it... unless things have changed recently, Harmony Gold direct involvement in the production of the live-action Robotech movie begins and ends with their licensing the live action movie rights to Maguire Entertainment. I don't believe they've invested in the film, and by all indications they don't have any say in production, they're just sitting back and hoping to collect big royalty checks if the movie takes off.

josephddm wrote:even if it is the true point of that we are all submitted to their canon as it is PB.

Yup... but I would've been astonished if Harmony Gold wasn't trying to make sure that all of the new Robotech material produced after they rebooted the Robotech universe in 2001. If you take what they say at face value, they've got a story they want to tell, and they don't want things to descend into the chaotic mess of mutually contradictory adaptations that were coming out in the 90's. I might not like the Shadow Chronicles movie, but I don't see them attempting to enforce a little consistency as a bad thing... particularly not with the "2nd Edition" RPG.

According to the latest update, we are looking at a June release for the New Generation book.

Also according to the new update " I did have a nice talk with Tommy Yune and he was glad to hear we want 2-4 Robotech books out by the end of the year."

What? Are you FREAKING KIDDING me? Palladium, I love you, but c'mon! It's taken two years at least to get New Generation, and we're still waiting and you expect us to believe at least 1 more Robotech book will come out by the end of the year, maybe even 3 more?

Unless Kevin owns a device that can stop time, there is no freaking way this is going to happen. Personally, I still don't think we will see the New Generation book before December!

Every time I read the latest update I get a little bit more disappointed.

MikeM wrote:Also according to the new update " I did have a nice talk with Tommy Yune and he was glad to hear we want 2-4 Robotech books out by the end of the year."

Most Probable Translation: "I had a talk with Tommy Yune today, and he desperately wants something Robotech that isn't a re-release out ASAP before the fans notice that another convention tour has come and gone leaving only empty promises and a lack of actual progress in its wake and finally decide to stop wasting their time on Robotech."

MikeM wrote:What? Are you FREAKING KIDDING me? Palladium, I love you, but c'mon! It's taken two years at least to get New Generation, and we're still waiting and you expect us to believe at least 1 more Robotech book will come out by the end of the year, maybe even 3 more?

Yeah, as much as I respect them for trying hard, the only possible response I can come up with for this can be summed up in onomatopoeia form as "Oink oink flap flap".

As i recall New Gen is already been pushed back a few months since the beginning of the year and will likely not be out in June since we are now 1 full week into May and he is practically re-writing in full, Vampire Kingdoms and writing Vampire Sourcebook at the same time (at least from what i can gather in his Murmurs etc) . Trying to make us think 1-3 more could be out by the end of the year is just delusional. We'll be lucky to see New Gen by the end of the summer because somethign always "comes up" to cause delays.

Translation, Robotech will always be put on the back burner so their own IP's can be put out first. I cannot really blame them for this knowing that HG and CO will probably find another reason to prevent PB from sending the book to the printers as it has done in the past.

FreelancerMar wrote:Translation, Robotech will always be put on the back burner so their own IP's can be put out first. I cannot really blame them for this knowing that HG and CO will probably find another reason to prevent PB from sending the book to the printers as it has done in the past.

I'd agree except that Palladium's own IP's suffer from the same problems in regards to actually meeting release dates.

PB has two manuscripts on the shelf, New Gen and Marines, they need editing. What PB needs is a great Editor

Tiree wrote:PB has two manuscripts on the shelf, New Gen and Marines, they need editing. What PB needs is a great Editor

Marines was indefinitely shelved prior to OH10 due to apparent extensive changes wanted by HG.

Indefinitely shelved - is relative. It is shelved till Kevin can do 'rewrites'

Tiree wrote:Indefinitely shelved - is relative. It is shelved till Kevin can do 'rewrites'

My understanding was marines was done and the only thing left was HG's approval before being sent to the printers. With Marker gone in the same period of time.....well....as you can see that is indefinite

jaymz wrote:

Tiree wrote:Indefinitely shelved - is relative. It is shelved till Kevin can do 'rewrites'

My understanding was marines was done and the only thing left was HG's approval before being sent to the printers. With Marker gone in the same period of time.....well....as you can see that is indefinite

From the different Murmur's and Podcasts - it sounded to me, that Marines made it to Tommy Yune - but it needed some rewrites in order to get it published. Whether or not this is on par with Dead Reign, or something minor I am not sure.

But going on precedence with PB and HG along with Marker's work - it probably does not require a lot.

Tiree wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Tiree wrote:Indefinitely shelved - is relative. It is shelved till Kevin can do 'rewrites'

My understanding was marines was done and the only thing left was HG's approval before being sent to the printers. With Marker gone in the same period of time.....well....as you can see that is indefinite

From the different Murmur's and Podcasts - it sounded to me, that Marines made it to Tommy Yune - but it needed some rewrites in order to get it published. Whether or not this is on par with Dead Reign, or something minor I am not sure.

But going on precedence with PB and HG along with Marker's work - it probably does not require a lot.

See, I heard MAJOR changes were requested by HG.

Tommy probably gave them feedback on everything new or different in the Marines book so that it would fit his/HG's current continuity, and wasn't a lot of that material supposed to be new or variants on existing stuff? How much work the book would take most likely depends on how extensive Tommy's notes were, if they're detailed it might just be a matter of rewriting them to fit the book's style but if they are vague or sketchy then someone would have to interpret what he wants which could require quite a bit of work.

Was any work done on the Starship book before Marker left?

rtsurfer wrote:Tommy probably gave them feedback on everything new or different in the Marines book so that it would fit his/HG's current continuity, and wasn't a lot of that material supposed to be new or variants on existing stuff? How much work the book would take most likely depends on how extensive Tommy's notes were, if they're detailed it might just be a matter of rewriting them to fit the book's style but if they are vague or sketchy then someone would have to interpret what he wants which could require quite a bit of work.

Was any work done on the Starship book before Marker left?

Not that anyone is aware of.

With constant delays with the New Generation book, I doubt we'll even see a Starship book. BTW, remembwhen Kevin promised us a new book every month or something like that? My gut feeling for The New Genertion is the end of the year...if we're lucky at all.

Arnie100 wrote:With constant delays with the New Generation book, I doubt we'll even see a Starship book. BTW, remembwhen Kevin promised us a new book every month or something like that? My gut feeling for The New Genertion is the end of the year...if we're lucky at all.

I think the Vampire Kingdoms book will come out in June. The second Vampire book will come out in August and then the Robotech book will come out in November/December.

Its a little frustrating that its taken this long and we still don't have the New Gen book. That is probably the most popular era that people want to play.

jaymz wrote:See, I heard MAJOR changes were requested by HG.

I am very cynical of that term, but yes that is the term that PB has issued as a reason to shelve the book. Hence why it could range anywhere from the amount of work Kevin did on Dead Reign, or something Minor - still not sure.

rtsurfer wrote:Was any work done on the Starship book before Marker left?

Yes - Marker was compiling a list of ships that had appeared. It could have been more, unsure. But Marker had requested help from the forum users.

Frim the latest update: NO UPDATE. No movement, nothing. And he still complains about low sales...put out a book people want (hint, hint) and you'll see salesn

Arnie100 wrote:Frim the latest update: NO UPDATE. No movement, nothing. And he still complains about low sales...put out a book people want (hint, hint) and you'll see salesn

or maybe in a format many fans would buy....

remember there only one Mr.Siembieda and PB is really not that big company we must see as a MOM and POP R.P.G

ZINO wrote:remember there only one Mr.Siembieda and PB is really not that big company we must see as a MOM and POP R.P.G

I think we all realise that, but the problem comes from the fact that he keeps giving dates he has no way in hell a chance of hitting. We were told the New Generation book would be out late last year or early next (2011). Its now mid May. This is not considered EARLY 2011. Plus he has two vampire books to release. We will be lucky if we see it at all in 2011.

All gaming companies have release dates that get missed. Its pretty much a part of the industry. Any other industry that would be considered INCREDIBLY unprofessional, but in the RPG market it is just the way it is. Palladium is the top of the heap for that.

I doubt very much we will see the New Generation book after the two vampire books. Something else will catch his fancy and Kevin will move on. My only question was if you were going to not release any books, why bother going after the license in the first place? Just focus on your own games that need some love, like Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, Heroes Unlimited. Those are great games that can use some attention.

MikeM

MikeM wrote:

ZINO wrote:remember there only one Mr.Siembieda and PB is really not that big company we must see as a MOM and POP R.P.G

I think we all realise that, but the problem comes from the fact that he keeps giving dates he has no way in hell a chance of hitting. We were told the New Generation book would be out late last year or early next (2011). Its now mid May. This is not considered EARLY 2011. Plus he has two vampire books to release. We will be lucky if we see it at all in 2011.

All gaming companies have release dates that get missed. Its pretty much a part of the industry. Any other industry that would be considered INCREDIBLY unprofessional, but in the RPG market it is just the way it is. Palladium is the top of the heap for that.

I doubt very much we will see the New Generation book after the two vampire books. Something else will catch his fancy and Kevin will move on. My only question was if you were going to not release any books, why bother going after the license in the first place? Just focus on your own games that need some love, like Beyond the Supernatural, After the Bomb, Heroes Unlimited. Those are great games that can use some attention.

MikeM

Palladium Fantasy for that matter too