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Also, Tolkeen knew as 12 PA the the CS was intent on their destruction (Coalition Wars 1, pg 97). By 60 or 70 PA, Tolkeen they accepted the CS as an eternal enemy.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

Actually, read Coalition Wars 6, pg 7. top of the second column. "Moreover, the Federation of Magic had implied it would join the battle should the City of Tolkeen actually fall under siege."

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Every Daemonix can be either Miscreant or Diabolic ..

Emporer Prosek is Diabolic ..

Ergo .. "Consequently" .. Some of the "Demons" will have a better alignemt then the Leader of the Coalition Military ..

And your trying to argue that he is not as evil .. because he is a human who has the CHOICE .. of being good or bad ..an chooses evil ?

Over a Race of sub demons who have no choice to even be good or selfish ?

this makes me giggle..

Yes. A race that are all evil by birth, and are literal demons are more evil than a human, who does evil things.

You're trying to simplify it to alignments of which there are only what 7 to catagorize all of the Megaverse? I'm looking at it as a human and going "Yeah humans can be bad, but supernatural demons are worse than a human can be, they're BORN worse than humans can be. Hitler was evil but he didn't rip off heads for giggles and eat living human flesh for giggles. Demons can and will do that.

The fact that demons don't HAVE the good side to temper the evil shows that they're more evil.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Every Daemonix can be either Miscreant or Diabolic ..

Emporer Prosek is Diabolic ..

Ergo .. "Consequently" .. Some of the "Demons" will have a better alignemt then the Leader of the Coalition Military ..

And your trying to argue that he is not as evil .. because he is a human who has the CHOICE .. of being good or bad ..an chooses evil ?

Over a Race of sub demons who have no choice to even be good or selfish ?

this makes me giggle..

Again me and others proved this argument to be moot, and your point of view on demons wrong.

On other demons I will bow to you an say yes you have proven me wrong.

But not on these particular sub-demons, due to Tolkeen actually "free'ing" them from an interdimensional prision .. meaning they had no choice .. but to be 1 or the other alignement as per their write up..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:[
You're trying to simplify it to alignments of which there are only what 7 to catagorize all of the Megaverse? I'm looking at it as a human and going "Yeah humans can be bad, but supernatural demons are worse than a human can be.

You can not use out of game knowledge .. to debate in game canon ..

Ergo "consequently" Pepsi .. your side of the debate is flawed from the get go ..

Because Palladium only has "alignments" to show who / what is which good / selfish / evil ..

you can not say 1 person who is the worst kind of evil .. (by choice) is not as evil as some one with a lesser evil alignment ..

Your logic does not hold up to palladium standards .. as portrayed in the books themselves.

Ergo "consequently" .. your wrong.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Why all the vitriol, in every thread?

Granted, I haven't read all the flavor text in these books, but I am now (owned them since they hit the shelves, but thanks).

Regardless of the nature of the beast, evil is evil, good is good. Is an Angel more good than a Paladin? Is a Leprechaun more selfish than a human thief? Are you trying to say Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchmen?

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Why all the vitriol, in every thread?

Granted, I haven't read all the flavor text in these books, but I am now (owned them since they hit the shelves, but thanks).

Regardless of the nature of the beast, evil is evil, good is good. Is an Angel more good than a Paladin? Is a Leprechaun more selfish than a human thief? Are you trying to say Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchmen?

It's not all Vitriol. Less than a week ago you asked what a demonix was. lol I'm just pointing out there's alot to read.

And no, not 'Reguardlesso f the nature of the beast", Yes I am very much saying that Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchemen. Could he possibly be more powerful than some? Yes, but he's human he's not 100.00000000000000000000000000000000000% anything. Evil or good. With 7 alignments to cover the entire megaverse, the alignments are astoundingly simplistic at BEST they're broad broad catagories that roughly attempt to cover the complexity of behavior.

Yes, a being of supernatural evil, born of supernatural evil, who's purpose in the universe is to be supernatural evil, is more evil than a man who saw his parent's killed and dreamed of power.

Is that to say Dunscan isn't evil? No. he's plenty evil. But it's a sliding scale. He's PLENTY evil, demons just "ARE" evil.

By Pepsi's logic ..

Dunscan is not as "evil" as Emporer Prosak ..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes. A race that are all evil by birth, and are literal demons are more evil than a human, who does evil things.

You're trying to simplify it to alignments of which there are only what 7 to catagorize all of the Megaverse? I'm looking at it as a human and going "Yeah humans can be bad, but supernatural demons are worse than a human can be, they're BORN worse than humans can be. Hitler was evil but he didn't rip off heads for giggles and eat living human flesh for giggles. Demons can and will do that.

The fact that demons don't HAVE the good side to temper the evil shows that they're more evil.

This illustrates a very simple and immature view of morality and the nature of the universe. It is fine if you want things to be this way, but it is not an absolute. It is your opinion and not supported by anything.

The same is true of everyone else's opinions. You can keep yelling at everyone that they're wrong, but they're not. They see it differently and are no more right or wrong than you.

Does it mean anyone shouldn't express their opinion: absolutely not.

If you disagree, fine. If you agree, fine. But arguing opinion is a ridiculous endeavor.

barna10 wrote:Also, Tolkeen knew as 12 PA the the CS was intent on their destruction (Coalition Wars 1, pg 97). By 60 or 70 PA, Tolkeen they accepted the CS as an eternal enemy.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

Actually, read Coalition Wars 6, pg 7. top of the second column. "Moreover, the Federation of Magic had implied it would join the battle should the City of Tolkeen actually fall under siege."

Oh, and it seems I, who needs to read more, seems to have found something new to add to the argument that seems to be unknown to members of the debate.

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

Actually, read Coalition Wars 6, pg 7. top of the second column. "Moreover, the Federation of Magic had implied it would join the battle should the City of Tolkeen actually fall under siege."

Great find .. This clearly shows some one is making stuff up to try to change other peoples minds here on the boards ..

Imagine that ..

Lenwen wrote:By Pepsi's logic ..

Dunscan is not as "evil" as Emporer Prosak ..

Don't put words in my mouth Lenwen. Most especially your words.

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes. A race that are all evil by birth, and are literal demons are more evil than a human, who does evil things.

You're trying to simplify it to alignments of which there are only what 7 to catagorize all of the Megaverse? I'm looking at it as a human and going "Yeah humans can be bad, but supernatural demons are worse than a human can be, they're BORN worse than humans can be. Hitler was evil but he didn't rip off heads for giggles and eat living human flesh for giggles. Demons can and will do that.

The fact that demons don't HAVE the good side to temper the evil shows that they're more evil.

This illustrates a very simple and immature view of morality and the nature of the universe. It is fine if you want things to be this way, but it is not an absolute. It is your opinion and not supported by anything.

The same is true of everyone else's opinions. You can keep yelling at everyone that they're wrong, but they're not. They see it differently and are no more right or wrong than you.

Does it mean anyone shouldn't express their opinion: absolutely not.

If you disagree, fine. If you agree, fine. But arguing opinion is a ridiculous endeavor.

By your words, you're just as Ridiculous as anyone else...

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:By Pepsi's logic ..

Dunscan is not as "evil" as Emporer Prosak ..

Don't put words in my mouth Lenwen. Most especially your words.

Notice Pepsi Jedi your ignorance of what I did .

Is not me putting words in your mouth, but rather .. Me showing you your own logic as shown right on this thread shows how it looks ..

Notice also my saying your ignorance (not an insult as I will show you exactly what is being ment) of what I did was in refrence that you do not undertand the difference of me doing the following ..

1) - Pepsi said .. Diabolic evil is not as evil as miscreant evil .. (this would be me putting words in your mouth)

and now ..

2) - By Pepsi's logic .. (which what I stated) Dunscan is not as evil as Emporer Prosak ..

Ninjabunny wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:By Pepsi's logic ..

Dunscan is not as "evil" as Emporer Prosak ..

Don't put words in my mouth Lenwen. Most especially your words.

Notice Pepsi Jedi your ignorance of what I did .

Is not me putting words in your mouth, but rather .. Me showing you your own logic as shown right on this thread shows how it looks ..

Notice also my saying your ignorance (not an insult as I will show you exactly what is being ment) of what I did was in refrence that you do not undertand the difference of me doing the following ..

1) - Pepsi said .. Diabolic evil is not as evil as miscreant evil .. (this would be me putting words in your mouth)

and now ..

2) - By Pepsi's logic .. (which what I stated) Dunscan is not as evil as Emporer Prosak ..

Doesn't Karls alignment keep jumping in the books or it Joseph? Oh Revised FoM he is Diabolic like Karl is in CwC.

Its Josephs .

Lenwen wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Allies didn't "Turn" on them. They told Tolkeen from the start to run, Tolkeen turned on THEM, when they didn't just jump in and do what was wanted. Dunscon told them from the start. "Remember when the CS came and kicked my teeth in? Lets see how you like it' It wasn't a surprise.

Actually, read Coalition Wars 6, pg 7. top of the second column. "Moreover, the Federation of Magic had implied it would join the battle should the City of Tolkeen actually fall under siege."

Great find .. This clearly shows some one is making stuff up to try to change other peoples minds here on the boards ..

Imagine that ..

According to my FoM 1st print, page 36, Dunscon planned on double crossing Tolkeen the entire time.

Also, as pointed out later in SoT Book 6, page 18, we get Dunscon's exact response.

'However,when the moment of truth comes, Lord Dunscon shall with hold his troops and watch the carnage.
Fitting revenge against cowards who betrayed his father the same way, by withholding their support.'

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote: so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

Nether wrote:And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though. Their ability to field them with he techno wizard equipment shows that their deal had been made prior and they'd been working a long time to equip the demon army (( which being burles artwork were pretty fugly fishy lumps that needed techno wizard legs and stuff))

It's easy to go "It was a reactionary move!!" but.. it wasn't. The useage of demons was premeditated, put into play, and actually needed time to rift them in and gear them up to make viable.

The Demon armies were there prior to the full engagement of war. They didn't appear whole cloth in Tolkeen's hour of need.

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

You don't wait to raise an army until the enemy is marching towards your border.

Tolkeen
We have an alliance with dunscon and free Quebec and we got demon canon foldder, how cannot win this.

Just to show everybody Tolkeen is the worse type of evil , the stupid kind of evil vs the coalition's smart evil.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Tolkeen
We have an alliance with dunscon and free Quebec and we got demon canon foldder, how cannot win this.

Just to show everybody Tolkeen is the worse type of evil , the stupid kind of evil vs the coalition's smart evil.

I would argue that the CS is a worse type of evil because they were the aggressors.

SAMASzero wrote:You don't wait to raise an army until the enemy is marching towards your border.

Fact is .. as I shown, the CS was already "containing" them prior to the war. And building troops up literally yrs before any actual "war" started..

Their stupidity was in trying that stunt with Free Quebec. They got so caught up in their own Anti-CS hate they assumed everyone fighting the CS shared it.

But while stupid, it wasn't necessarily Evil.

Lenwen wrote:

SAMASzero wrote:You don't wait to raise an army until the enemy is marching towards your border.

Fact is .. as I shown, the CS was already "containing" them prior to the war. And building troops up literally yrs before any actual "war" started..

That's my point.

Tolkeen knew that the war was inevitable by... really, since the "start" of the setting in 101 P.A., probably sooner.

The CS was coming, and nothing short of a hostile invasion of the CS could stop it. The Mechanoids, the Juicer Uprising, Anything certain groups of PCs did, all of that were just distractions.

Furthermore, Tolkeen knew that as things stood, they were both outnumbered and outgunned. That's why everybody was telling them to get out of dodge. They knew that the normal defenses of Tolkeen or any of them would've been insufficient to stop a dedicated Coalition juggernaut. That's why Tolkeen did pretty much everything they could think of to bolster their defenses, up to and including using Demonic beings as Shock Troopers.

And ultimately, the initial victories leading to the Sorceror's Revenge and Tolkeen's eventual fall proved that they were right. That desperate, extraordinary measures were needed to defend their nation. They just weren't enough.

Which is, again, why their friends and allies told them to evacuate in the first place.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes. A race that are all evil by birth, and are literal demons are more evil than a human, who does evil things.

You're trying to simplify it to alignments of which there are only what 7 to catagorize all of the Megaverse? I'm looking at it as a human and going "Yeah humans can be bad, but supernatural demons are worse than a human can be, they're BORN worse than humans can be. Hitler was evil but he didn't rip off heads for giggles and eat living human flesh for giggles. Demons can and will do that.

The fact that demons don't HAVE the good side to temper the evil shows that they're more evil.

This illustrates a very simple and immature view of morality and the nature of the universe. It is fine if you want things to be this way, but it is not an absolute. It is your opinion and not supported by anything.

The same is true of everyone else's opinions. You can keep yelling at everyone that they're wrong, but they're not. They see it differently and are no more right or wrong than you.

Does it mean anyone shouldn't express their opinion: absolutely not.

If you disagree, fine. If you agree, fine. But arguing opinion is a ridiculous endeavor.

By your words, you're just as Ridiculous as anyone else...

Yes, if I tell anyone their opinion is wrong, I am being ridiculous.

barna10 wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Tolkeen
We have an alliance with dunscon and free Quebec and we got demon canon foldder, how cannot win this.

Just to show everybody Tolkeen is the worse type of evil , the stupid kind of evil vs the coalition's smart evil.

I would argue that the CS is a worse type of evil because they were the aggressors.

I would have no choice but to side with this logic.

How can 1 be considered evil , if all your doing is being peaceful and content otherwise ?

SAMASzero wrote:Their stupidity was in trying that stunt with Free Quebec. They got so caught up in their own Anti-CS hate they assumed everyone fighting the CS shared it.

But while stupid, it wasn't necessarily Evil.

I think this stinks of desperation, but yeah, stupid does not equal evil.

And yes, Tolkeen build up troops in response to the CS build-up, but wouldn't you?

barna10 wrote:

SAMASzero wrote:Their stupidity was in trying that stunt with Free Quebec. They got so caught up in their own Anti-CS hate they assumed everyone fighting the CS shared it.

But while stupid, it wasn't necessarily Evil.

I think this stinks of desperation, but yeah, stupid does not equal evil.

And yes, Tolkeen build up troops in response to the CS build-up, but wouldn't you?

no the demons make them evil. evil i said evil , evil evil eviland the business with FQ just makes them stupid on top of it...................stupid evil i tell you

So, what exactly is a demon and why does that label make them blacker than black?

If I play cards with a demon on the weekends, does that make me evil?

--flatline

flatline wrote:So, what exactly is a demon and why does that label make them blacker than black?

If I play cards with a demon on the weekends, does that make me evil?

--flatline

depends, do you win?

flatline wrote:So, what exactly is a demon and why does that label make them blacker than black?

If I play cards with a demon on the weekends, does that make me evil?

--flatline

Which makes me curious ..

The Deevil "Saxman" .. is a "Good alignment" demon ..

And Emp Prosek is a "Demonic" Diabolic" aligned Human ..

Does the human automatically grant him a "he is better then the demon" card ?

Lenwen wrote:

flatline wrote:So, what exactly is a demon and why does that label make them blacker than black?

If I play cards with a demon on the weekends, does that make me evil?

--flatline

Which makes me curious ..

The Deevil "Saxman" .. is a "Good alignment" demon ..

And Emp Prosek is a "Demonic" Diabolic" aligned Human ..

Does the human automatically grant him a "he is better then the demon" card ?

Good-aligned otherwise demonic beings aren't impossible, jsyk. There's at least one canon way of making even the most diabolic being principled, that light-emitting rift hidden on Atlantis. So there's always the possibility that or a similar event could make a demon good.

Lenwen wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:By Pepsi's logic ..

Dunscan is not as "evil" as Emporer Prosak ..

Don't put words in my mouth Lenwen. Most especially your words.

Notice Pepsi Jedi your ignorance of what I did .

Is not me putting words in your mouth, but rather .. Me showing you your own logic as shown right on this thread shows how it looks ..

Notice also my saying your ignorance (not an insult as I will show you exactly what is being ment) of what I did was in refrence that you do not undertand the difference of me doing the following ..

1) - Pepsi said .. Diabolic evil is not as evil as miscreant evil .. (this would be me putting words in your mouth)

and now ..

2) - By Pepsi's logic .. (which what I stated) Dunscan is not as evil as Emporer Prosak ..

I never said either. So stop trying to flame bate me with the constant "Ignorant" jab Lenwen. Again. You don't know what you're talking about. If it's my logic. I can't be ignorant of it. But I never stated that Dunscan isn't as evil as Prosak. I said Demons are more evil than humans.

SAMASzero wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote: so what i been gathering from you a coalition foot soldier is more evil then a demon

Then your clearly not paying attention to his post ..
Everything can be traced to one .. single .. act of evil .. on 1 side of the entire conflict .. and Nether has summed it all up in 1 sentence VERY well ..

Nether wrote:And just because you do some questionable deeds to survive, it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded, peroid

Is tolkeen evil for doing what it was forced to do ?

Yes.

But it was an evil action, on the part of an Evil empire that lead to the down fall of a "Good" Nation out of survival ..

And there is no argue'ing this very point Nether stated ..

it would never have been an issue if Tolkeen wasnt invaded

Tolkeen had made it's deal with the Demon armies prior to being invaded though. Their ability to field them with he techno wizard equipment shows that their deal had been made prior and they'd been working a long time to equip the demon army (( which being burles artwork were pretty fugly fishy lumps that needed techno wizard legs and stuff))

It's easy to go "It was a reactionary move!!" but.. it wasn't. The useage of demons was premeditated, put into play, and actually needed time to rift them in and gear them up to make viable.

The Demon armies were there prior to the full engagement of war. They didn't appear whole cloth in Tolkeen's hour of need.

Not only that but the Deamonix are by far not the ONLY Demons that Tolkeen put on the field. It was pointed out that they were such foul tempered brutes and bullies that they had to have segregated units to keep them from warring and eating other demons that Tolkeen had in the ranks. Which... points out that Tolkeen --had-- other demons in the ranks.

If memory serves, the Demonix weren't even 'Summoned and pressed' into service like most people are assuming. They were so bad that they were found in a Demonic sort of prision, and Tolkeen busted them OUT to use in the war.

You don't wait to raise an army until the enemy is marching towards your border.

I know. That's my point. They had the demons PRIOR to any CS Nuke attack. So you can't justify the usage of Demons, by saying "The CS TRied to nuke us" if you had them already.

It wasn't "The CS nuked us", it was "The CS is coming to kill us". See my previous post.

SAMASzero wrote:It wasn't "The CS nuked us", it was "The CS is coming to kill us". See my previous post.

I'd meant others, not you specificly Zero.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I never said either. So stop trying to flame bate me with the constant "Ignorant" jab Lenwen. Again. You don't know what you're talking about. If it's my logic. I can't be ignorant of it

The ignorance on your part was you saying .. I said you said something .. (say that 5x fast.. haha)

When the fact of the matter is ..

I never inplied you said anything nor that you "said" anything .. as you clearly stated ..

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Don't put words in my mouth Lenwen.

Considering were on a text based forum, then it is impossible for me to put words into your mouth. Wether or not you understand the context of which I just stated, I am not sure so if you were ignorant of that fact .. I am here to help you if able my friend.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Why all the vitriol, in every thread?

Granted, I haven't read all the flavor text in these books, but I am now (owned them since they hit the shelves, but thanks).

Regardless of the nature of the beast, evil is evil, good is good. Is an Angel more good than a Paladin? Is a Leprechaun more selfish than a human thief? Are you trying to say Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchmen?

It's not all Vitriol. Less than a week ago you asked what a demonix was. lol I'm just pointing out there's alot to read.

And no, not 'Reguardlesso f the nature of the beast", Yes I am very much saying that Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchemen. Could he possibly be more powerful than some? Yes, but he's human he's not 100.00000000000000000000000000000000000% anything. Evil or good. With 7 alignments to cover the entire megaverse, the alignments are astoundingly simplistic at BEST they're broad broad catagories that roughly attempt to cover the complexity of behavior.

Yes, a being of supernatural evil, born of supernatural evil, who's purpose in the universe is to be supernatural evil, is more evil than a man who saw his parent's killed and dreamed of power.

Is that to say Dunscan isn't evil? No. he's plenty evil. But it's a sliding scale. He's PLENTY evil, demons just "ARE" evil.

Wait, so your saying just because you are "human", therefore you can not be as evil as anything else?

Depending on what story you want to go with, Angels have fallen and could be just as evil as any other. By your logic it doesnt matter that they are fallen angels, because they are "angels" so they must not be as evil as anyone else.

What exactly is your definition of "demon"?
Because in Rifts, they are a race or species first, with the idea they like torment or some form of inflicting unhappiness, but it isnt as general as it sounds, hence why they have specific sub demons. In this game setting, saying all demons no matter who they are, are automatically evil end of story starts to infringe upon racial statements. Kind of like how the CS is very pro human, but as well very racist against everything else that isnt human. (speciest might be the better word there)

So sure the Daemonix arent perfect but they are showing they have some morals, not saying alot but the fact they have sworn complete loyalty to Tolkeen and they are 'grateful', so sure they are evil, and sound like they fit abberant as they seem to have some code.

And really the pack up and move is very limited arguement. As Len mentioned, what major cities / kingdom's just packed up and left when thier neighbor threatened them?

Also some allies told them to go, but the Fed said they were going to back them and send support which they didnt, but Tolkeen didnt know that. To me it makes far more sense to fight for your kingdom and your home than to just pack up and run. Even if they did leave, there is alot of hostile forces on Rifts, and they always find they have an enemy close by. W

WW1 started with small nations and quickly became a game of allies. So Tolkeen thought they had the Fed backing them, then FQ joined them. I mean a ex CS state decided to join them! Just like people in rl, they value freedom above most others and to have someone threaten your kingdom with genocide really makes you start gathering as much as you can.

So for this thread, at the beggining Tolkeen was good people, but in the struggle for survival many of the leadership became evil, but no where near as evil as the people waging genocide on them.

Even basic soldiers who are normally good peeps in the CS, you have to know that you are crossing that moral line when your army doesnt want prisoners or surrender, they want genocide.

Now i am coming off as all Tolkeen tolkeen tolkeen, but i do enjoy the CS as a dark humanitarian empire fighting to reclaim mankinds home, Earth, just they take some things to far. That and Karl really needs to get the laser to the head so someone not quite so genocidal like his son can take over. (I dont see Jr as nearly as crazy as the old man)

Nether wrote:Now i am coming off as all Tolkeen tolkeen tolkeen, but i do enjoy the CS as a dark humanitarian empire fighting to reclaim mankinds home, Earth, just they take some things to far. That and Karl really needs to get the laser to the head so someone not quite so genocidal like his son can take over. (I dont see Jr as nearly as crazy as the old man)

Well it was Hitler's crazy that helped indirectly the allies during WWII, more rational sorts in his place might have actually won so probably the last thing you want to do is replace the crazy guy that hopefully will get a bit too crazy and bring things crashing down than his son who isn't so infected.

Nether wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Why all the vitriol, in every thread?

Granted, I haven't read all the flavor text in these books, but I am now (owned them since they hit the shelves, but thanks).

Regardless of the nature of the beast, evil is evil, good is good. Is an Angel more good than a Paladin? Is a Leprechaun more selfish than a human thief? Are you trying to say Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchmen?

It's not all Vitriol. Less than a week ago you asked what a demonix was. lol I'm just pointing out there's alot to read.

And no, not 'Reguardlesso f the nature of the beast", Yes I am very much saying that Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchemen. Could he possibly be more powerful than some? Yes, but he's human he's not 100.00000000000000000000000000000000000% anything. Evil or good. With 7 alignments to cover the entire megaverse, the alignments are astoundingly simplistic at BEST they're broad broad catagories that roughly attempt to cover the complexity of behavior.

Yes, a being of supernatural evil, born of supernatural evil, who's purpose in the universe is to be supernatural evil, is more evil than a man who saw his parent's killed and dreamed of power.

Is that to say Dunscan isn't evil? No. he's plenty evil. But it's a sliding scale. He's PLENTY evil, demons just "ARE" evil.

Wait, so your saying just because you are "human", therefore you can not be as evil as anything else?

This is exactly how I see it .. from the post ..

Just for the record , my troops weren't attacking , we were on a fact finding mission on the strip clubs there.

Nether wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You should read more, into the parts where the Demonix would attack and eat Cyberknights who tried to stop them from their demonic evil with in their own ranks. I know you just got the books man, but some of us have had um for years.

And yes, a supernatural demonic race, is 'more evil' than a man at the head of a human army. They're LITERAL DEMONS. Not just figerative ones. Hitler was "Evil" and WAY EVIL, but he wasn't an actual real life DEMON.

Why all the vitriol, in every thread?

Granted, I haven't read all the flavor text in these books, but I am now (owned them since they hit the shelves, but thanks).

Regardless of the nature of the beast, evil is evil, good is good. Is an Angel more good than a Paladin? Is a Leprechaun more selfish than a human thief? Are you trying to say Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchmen?

It's not all Vitriol. Less than a week ago you asked what a demonix was. lol I'm just pointing out there's alot to read.

And no, not 'Reguardlesso f the nature of the beast", Yes I am very much saying that Dunscon isn't as evil as his demonic henchemen. Could he possibly be more powerful than some? Yes, but he's human he's not 100.00000000000000000000000000000000000% anything. Evil or good. With 7 alignments to cover the entire megaverse, the alignments are astoundingly simplistic at BEST they're broad broad catagories that roughly attempt to cover the complexity of behavior.

Yes, a being of supernatural evil, born of supernatural evil, who's purpose in the universe is to be supernatural evil, is more evil than a man who saw his parent's killed and dreamed of power.

Is that to say Dunscan isn't evil? No. he's plenty evil. But it's a sliding scale. He's PLENTY evil, demons just "ARE" evil.

Wait, so your saying just because you are "human", therefore you can not be as evil as anything else?

No. I'm saying a simple human with Daddy issues and a power complex, is not as evil as supernaturally evil creatures born in hell or hades or whereever you wanna call it. By their innate natures, Most of them are uncontrollably evil with little chance to buck the system. (( Yes there are exceptions. I know. They've been pointed out. I'm speaking of the Majority of the SUPERNATURALLY EVIL DEMONS))

Humans by nature are not ALL that innately uncontrollably evil. Can a human person be evil? Yes, but even as evil as he gets, he'll never be a supernatural FORCE of evil, born of it in some other dimensional hell.

Nether wrote:
Depending on what story you want to go with, Angels have fallen and could be just as evil as any other.

Out side of whitewolf's Demon the Fallen is this actually held? I know Lucifer is a fallen angel but I don't remember the other demons being explained as fallen angles out side of white wolf's book? (( I clearly don't know all the sects and cults of christianity, but I haven't heard this in the 'real world'))

Nether wrote:
By your logic it doesnt matter that they are fallen angels, because they are "angels" so they must not be as evil as anyone else.

No, my logic would be that they're Demons, and therefore more evil than baseline humanity.

Nether wrote:
What exactly is your definition of "demon"?
Because in Rifts, they are a race or species first, with the idea they like torment or some form of inflicting unhappiness, but it isnt as general as it sounds, hence why they have specific sub demons. In this game setting, saying all demons no matter who they are, are automatically evil end of story starts to infringe upon racial statements. Kind of like how the CS is very pro human, but as well very racist against everything else that isnt human. (speciest might be the better word there)

So sure the Daemonix arent perfect but they are showing they have some morals, not saying alot but the fact they have sworn complete loyalty to Tolkeen and they are 'grateful', so sure they are evil, and sound like they fit abberant as they seem to have some code.

They're demons. They lie. Swearing an oath only counts if you choose to keep your word. Demons are in general supernaturally evil by nature. They'll lie when ever they feel like it. They picked fights with the 'other' demons in tolkeen's army and killed and (( I think)) Ate a cyberknight that tried to stop them from doin' evil stuff. A CK that was fighting FOR tolkeen. You're ascribing morals, that I think is a mistaken sense of Gratitude. When the war went badly didn't they just bail on tolkeen and make a run for it? They were thankful for being let out of demon prision and allowed to kill things, but their 'loyalty' is only defined in such as "They let me out and allow me to slaughter" once that slaughter is done or Tolkeen appears to be on the losing side, the demons bail.

If Hitler, considered pretty universally "Evil" by our modern standards, like kittens and took good care of his kitten, it doesn't diminish his evil. It just means that he, (( like us all)) can't be 100% evil 100% of the time, and that 7 alignments with 10 or so points each can't adiquately and SPECIFICLY Define all the subtext and complexity of a thinking being.

Nether wrote:

And really the pack up and move is very limited arguement. As Len mentioned, what major cities / kingdom's just packed up and left when thier neighbor threatened them?

What major city or kingdom had 90% of the planet as unclaimed, that they could? Or Magic and supernatural armies to assist them? It's only limited by the people that would rather not do it. In my post I've shown it wouldn't even be that hard to figure out. Would there be more details needed than I covered in my post? sure, but my post was 10 minutes off the top of my head. If you have rulers and governments actually planning the thing, it's not as hard as being made out. Magic is a great equalizer after all.

Nether wrote:
Also some allies told them to go, but the Fed said they were going to back them and send support which they didnt, but Tolkeen didnt know that.

They were idiots. They trusted evil beings to keep their word. That's amazingly stupid. And not for nothing but how long you gonna wait for help before you know it's not coming? Tolkeen built up for 10 years.

Nether wrote:

To me it makes far more sense to fight for your kingdom and your home than to just pack up and run.

Even with --everyone-- telling you, you'd die? And then, as we saw, they were right?

Nether wrote: Even if they did leave, there is alot of hostile forces on Rifts, and they always find they have an enemy close by.

It's not like they were helpless babes in the woods. They were a city state of great magical power. All that money they spent on mercs, could still be spent to have mercs protect them till they were fully set up. 90% of the world is wilderness. Granted that wilderness seems to be filling up fast but there's still 100s and 100s and 100s of miles where you'd never meet another person. Saying "There's no where to go" only means "I don't feel like lookin'"

Nether wrote:


WW1 started with small nations and quickly became a game of allies. So Tolkeen thought they had the Fed backing them, then FQ joined them. I mean a ex CS state decided to join them! Just like people in rl, they value freedom above most others and to have someone threaten your kingdom with genocide really makes you start gathering as much as you can.

Did FQ join them? I know the offer was made but I seem to remember FQ spinning around and opening fire on the demonic hordes, even knowing they'd die, vs lettin the Demons get ahold of the CS?

Nether wrote:
So for this thread, at the beggining Tolkeen was good people, but in the struggle for survival many of the leadership became evil, but no where near as evil as the people waging genocide on them.

The CS never fielded an army of demons. Tolkeen did. Using forces that the sterotypical "Satan" Would use, out does conventional warfare, in my book.

Nether wrote:
Even basic soldiers who are normally good peeps in the CS, you have to know that you are crossing that moral line when your army doesnt want prisoners or surrender, they want genocide.

That only got going after the Sorcerers revenge, where those demons came out, and routed part of the CS army and... didn't take prisioners and were chasing and eating fleeing CS troops. It was the horror of the tolkenite's and demonic forces that brought about the 'Take no prisioners' mindset. Can you blame them? Tolkeen was ---everything--- they were said to be, and had an army of literal demons fighting for them.

Nether wrote:

Now i am coming off as all Tolkeen tolkeen tolkeen, but i do enjoy the CS as a dark humanitarian empire fighting to reclaim mankinds home, Earth, just they take some things to far. That and Karl really needs to get the laser to the head so someone not quite so genocidal like his son can take over. (I dont see Jr as nearly as crazy as the old man)

I largely agree. The CS isn't evil. It's lead by a pretty evil guy. Their 'Goals" aren't evil. If all the DBees and demons and stuff went "Dude! Give us a year ,we'll leave" he'd give them a year and let um leave. Thing is they won't, and yes, the CS --is-- fighting for humanity.

YES THEY SOMETIMES GO TOO FAR. way way WAAAAY too far sometimes. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY Too far sometimes. But even at their worst, they never fielded armies of demons against enemies.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
I'm speaking of the Majority of the SUPERNATURALLY EVIL DEMONS))

Humans by nature are not ALL that innately uncontrollably evil. Can a human person be evil? Yes, but even as evil as he gets, he'll never be a supernatural FORCE of evil, born of it in some other dimensional hell.

You seem to think there is a difference .. in "evil" from being "Mortal" .. to Demonic evil ..

Can you cite me anything in canon anywhere .. to support your "opinion" ?

I get the impression from some who have posted here that they think Tolkeen lost because they were evil, as if it were God's retribution against them or something. Also I get the impression that some think the CS can do whatever they want because they have humanity's best interest at heart.

Really, look at the past. The U.S. government sold the campaign against the Indians as being a good thing. Those savages were killing our people! Attacking without provocation! Raping our dogs and eating our meat! They told the citizens just about anything they could think of to justify pushing the Native Americans of their land. Was there the U.S. evil when they would sign treaties with tribes and then not honor them (some they still refuse to honor!)? Was the U.S. evil when they gave infected blankets to the Indians on the trail of tears (men, women, and children!)?

YES!

Were the Indians evil when they could take no more and started fighting back? Were they evil to pray to the spirits and invoke their aid? Would they have been evil to do ANYTHING it took to not be pushed off their land and slaughtered by the White Man?

One could argue yes to these, but I think it is a clear no.

If the Tolkeenites knew anything of pre-rifts history (and we have no reason to believe they DIDN'T have knowledge of pre-rifts history), they would have known that either option (fighting or leaving) was a loosing proposition. The CS would have tracked them down and killed them.

Why do I think they would have tracked them down and killed them? Because they offered no terms. I have yet to see evidence of the CS going to Tolkeen and saying "Leave or die", or "We won't harm you if you pick up and go". There were, however, many threats and open messages expressing the CS's intention to wipe Tolkeen off the map and to commit genocide.

A threat of genocide is a hefty weight to bear. I can't believe most of you would say "Oh no, they want to kill all my friends, family, etc. Oh well, guess I'll just pack up and move. Hope the next place is friendlier. La da dee!"

If only the Jews had had you guys coaching them in WWII....or for the rest of history...

Ninjabunny wrote:My point is a human can not be more evil then a demon.

I agree, 100%, but each can be just as evil as the other.

barna10 wrote:I get the impression from some who have posted here that they think Tolkeen lost because they were evil, as if it were God's retribution against them or something. Also I get the impression that some think the CS can do whatever they want because they have humanity's best interest at heart.

Really, look at the past. The U.S. government sold the campaign against the Indians as being a good thing. Those savages were killing our people! Attacking without provocation! Raping our dogs and eating our meat! They told the citizens just about anything they could think of to justify pushing the Native Americans of their land. Was there the U.S. evil when they would sign treaties with tribes and then not honor them (some they still refuse to honor!)? Was the U.S. evil when they gave infected blankets to the Indians on the trail of tears (men, women, and children!)?

YES!

Were the Indians evil when they could take no more and started fighting back? Were they evil to pray to the spirits and invoke their aid? Would they have been evil to do ANYTHING it took to not be pushed off their land and slaughtered by the White Man?

One could argue yes to these, but I think it is a clear no.

If the Tolkeenites knew anything of pre-rifts history (and we have no reason to believe they DIDN'T have knowledge of pre-rifts history), they would have known that either option (fighting or leaving) was a loosing proposition. The CS would have tracked them down and killed them.

Why do I think they would have tracked them down and killed them? Because they offered no terms. I have yet to see evidence of the CS going to Tolkeen and saying "Leave or die", or "We won't harm you if you pick up and go". There were, however, many threats and open messages expressing the CS's intention to wipe Tolkeen off the map and to commit genocide.

A threat of genocide is a hefty weight to bear. I can't believe most of you would say "Oh no, they want to kill all my friends, family, etc. Oh well, guess I'll just pack up and move. Hope the next place is friendlier. La da dee!"

If only the Jews had had you guys coaching them in WWII....or for the rest of history...

Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

barna10 wrote:I get the impression from some who have posted here that they think Tolkeen lost because they were evil, as if it were God's retribution against them or something. Also I get the impression that some think the CS can do whatever they want because they have humanity's best interest at heart.

Really, look at the past. The U.S. government sold the campaign against the Indians as being a good thing. Those savages were killing our people! Attacking without provocation! Raping our dogs and eating our meat! They told the citizens just about anything they could think of to justify pushing the Native Americans of their land. Was there the U.S. evil when they would sign treaties with tribes and then not honor them (some they still refuse to honor!)? Was the U.S. evil when they gave infected blankets to the Indians on the trail of tears (men, women, and children!)?

YES!

Were the Indians evil when they could take no more and started fighting back? Were they evil to pray to the spirits and invoke their aid? Would they have been evil to do ANYTHING it took to not be pushed off their land and slaughtered by the White Man?

One could argue yes to these, but I think it is a clear no.

If the Tolkeenites knew anything of pre-rifts history (and we have no reason to believe they DIDN'T have knowledge of pre-rifts history), they would have known that either option (fighting or leaving) was a loosing proposition. The CS would have tracked them down and killed them.

Why do I think they would have tracked them down and killed them? Because they offered no terms. I have yet to see evidence of the CS going to Tolkeen and saying "Leave or die", or "We won't harm you if you pick up and go". There were, however, many threats and open messages expressing the CS's intention to wipe Tolkeen off the map and to commit genocide.

A threat of genocide is a hefty weight to bear. I can't believe most of you would say "Oh no, they want to kill all my friends, family, etc. Oh well, guess I'll just pack up and move. Hope the next place is friendlier. La da dee!"

If only the Jews had had you guys coaching them in WWII....or for the rest of history...

oops my bad ,I was supposed to give the message , for the king to give up and his people would be free to leave the city unharmed and I got distracted by the Tolkeen Nite Life, damn evil d-bee strippers , My bad.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They're demons. They lie. Swearing an oath only counts if you choose to keep your word. Demons are in general supernaturally evil by nature. They'll lie when ever they feel like it. They picked fights with the 'other' demons in tolkeen's army and killed and (( I think)) Ate a cyberknight that tried to stop them from doin' evil stuff. A CK that was fighting FOR tolkeen. You're ascribing morals, that I think is a mistaken sense of Gratitude. When the war went badly didn't they just bail on tolkeen and make a run for it? They were thankful for being let out of demon prision and allowed to kill things, but their 'loyalty' is only defined in such as "They let me out and allow me to slaughter" once that slaughter is done or Tolkeen appears to be on the losing side, the demons bail.

No, the Daemonix were described as having "eternal respect, allegiance, and friendship" regarding their Human Tolkeenite allies. Argue with it however you want, Pepsi, but that is straight from the book. since when does "eternal" mean "until the war is over"? I think you should read about the Daemonix and stop assuming they are a simple plot device to describe how evil Tolkeen. Seriously, your doing yourself and those your debating a disservice by not reading this stuff.. It starts on Coalition Wars book 2, pg 87. It's really a cool story, worthy of a second look (I say second look because you've told us how you read all this stuff before).

Also, it describes how even though they were doing their part and following the rules, groups of Psi-Stalkers refused to believe they were really allies and attacked and killed them whenever they could. These guys just can't get a break! Imprisoned for thousands of years, bullied by other demons, stalked and hunted by Psi-Stalkers, and besmirched on this forum! How nice would you be after all of that? LoL

Aftermath mentions that some Daemonix remained loyal, while those without masters spread to the winds or stuck around and began terrorizing the country side. "Some" is not "All". Aftermath also mentions how CS soldiers and former Tolkeen military alike are terrorizing the country side after the war. Does it really matter to the victims who killed them?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

Actually, 1 PA is not 1 year after the apocalypse. It's actually about 200 years after the apocalypse. The Tolkeenites probably did have 100's of years of history there.

On another note, I discovered WHY the Tolkeenites did not flee! The general populace thought the ley-line defense system was impregnable, and the leaders had convinced themselves that the CS would never engage in a campaign against the three main cities or engage in genocide (Coalition Wars 6, pgs 174 and 177). Idiots.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

No, our world is their past, and history tends to repeat itself, and those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

No, our world is their past, and history tends to repeat itself, and those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Helped along by the Proseks idea of learning from history being 'well Hitler had some nice ideas but WE will get it right'.

Nightmask wrote:

barna10 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Again, our world isn't theirs. In our world the jews didn't have 90% of the planet they could scout out and find a nice place to claim as their own, then move to. Nor did they have cities of Dragons to help. Or access to Magic. Or elementals, or constructs, ect ect.
Morally, should Tolkeen HAD to move? No. They shouldn't have had to, but when faced with "CERTAIN DEATH" or "move", it's a pretty easy choice for most people. It's not like tolkeen had 100s and 100s and 100s of generations of history in that place. It's only 109 PA now. If the city started at 1 PA they've only been there 100 years.

No, our world is their past, and history tends to repeat itself, and those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Helped along by the Proseks idea of learning from history being 'well Hitler had some nice ideas but WE will get it right'.

Hmmm....ummmm well hilter did have some good ideas along some real evil ones